Origin of Species ~ Charles Darwin ~ Part 2
patwest
February 19, 2006 - 06:25 am
The famous classic on evolution that revolutionized the course of science. Darwin's theory that species derive from other species by a gradual evolutionary process and that the average age level of each species is heightened by the "survival of the fittest" stirred popular debate of his time to a fever pitch. "Next to the Bible, no work has been quite as influential."--Ashley Montagu. Source

The concentration in this discussion would be on the words of Darwin himself. We would want to know, not what folks are saying about evolution, but what he said himself. By the time we finished, we would understand his theory as he presented it. It would be done in a manner similar to the one we have been using in Durant's Story of Civilization -- in other words, we act as if we are sitting around together in someone's living room, have just read together a specific paragraph and then react in whatever way we wish. We would not be overly regimented.--Robby
Online text is available here:
"On the Origin of Species."

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Discussion Leader: Robby

Origin of Species, Part 1


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patwest
February 19, 2006 - 06:29 am


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Bubble
February 19, 2006 - 10:12 am
Thank you PatWest. Already a new fresh discussion page.

robert b. iadeluca
February 19, 2006 - 11:10 am
Didn't those 1000 postings go by fast?!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 19, 2006 - 11:19 am
"There is no exception to the rule that every organic being naturally increases at so high a rate. If not destroyed, the earth would soon be covered by the progeny of a single pair.

"Even slow-breeding man has doubled in twenty-five years, and at this rate, in less than a thousand years, there would literally not be standing-room for his progeny.

"Linnaeus has calculated that if an annual plant produced only two seeds- and there is no plant so unproductive as this- and their seedlings next year produced two, and so on, then in twenty years there should be a million plants.

"The elephant is reckoned the slowest breeder of all known animals, and I have taken some pains to estimate its probable minimum rate of natural increase. It will be safest to assume that it begins breeding when thirty years old, and goes on breeding till ninety years old, bringing forth six young in the interval, and surviving till one hundred years old.

"If this be so, after a period of from 740 to 750 years there would be nearly nineteen million elephants alive, descended from the first pair.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 19, 2006 - 11:26 am
Here is the current WORLD POPULATION.

When I was a boy in the Twenties, there were about 2 billion people on earth. Now there are over 6 billion people.

SCARY !!

Robby

Bubble
February 19, 2006 - 11:49 am
I am awed at Darwin's calculations without a computer!

An she-elephant is pregnant for 22 months!

robert b. iadeluca
February 19, 2006 - 11:49 am
The POPULATION OF THE UNITED STATES almost tripled in my lifetime.

I think we are beginning to understand what Darwin is pointing out -- whether it be human beings, elephants, plants, or insects.

Robby

Bubble
February 19, 2006 - 11:51 am
Wars are a necessity then.

Frybabe
February 19, 2006 - 12:07 pm
So much more reason to support space exploration and colonization. We foul our nest here now but eventually we get to send our overages to other worlds so they can repeat the process.

Malthusian principles are scary but there seem to be plenty of checks and balances. Wouldn't we have been overrun by rabbits long ago if not?

M.

KleoP
February 19, 2006 - 01:38 pm
Bubble, I wanted the quick mathematical difference between geometric and exponential increase, not for a simple introduction to either--the rice on the chess squares fable is a good one, though. In statistics they can be used differently, and in population biology (Malthus). I was hoping Robby would simple differentiate moving from moment to moment in time to a continuum using Malthusian population equations, having posted the Wikipedia article, which I think is wrong. Please post links you understand rather than risk posting the wrong information. I think links can be overused. There are some great introductions to exponential increase all over the web. I will ask someone else about the Wikipedia article.

Darwin is using statistics to calculate his answers, it's fairly straight-forward, although the results always impress me. 19 million elephants! that's what, over 5 billion pounds of dung? How long would it take for the number of elephants pooping to equal the weight of the earth in elephant dung and how many dung beetles would be born?

Yes, Frybabe, the checks and balances are always in play. 5 billion pounds of dung would have to come from over 8 billion tons of leaves or something every day. At some point the elephants would have consumed all the energy produced by photosynthesis. There would be earlier checks, of course: poachers.

War isn't the only check on human population. The better the lifestyle the fewer children people have. Better educated women have fewer children--why not educate women, have fewer children, then not send them to war? Two people who only have a single child won't increase the population. The more crowded populations become the more exposed to and prone to disease. And it seems that nature keeps coming up with new plagues for humans.

Kleo

KleoP
February 19, 2006 - 01:39 pm
Robby, thanks for posting the bold reminder to subscribe to the new discussion.

Kleo

robert b. iadeluca
February 19, 2006 - 01:54 pm
Kleo:-We have a group of sharp individuals here who can figure things out for themselves. They may not be scientists but they have been "around the block a bit." They are aware, for example, that Wikipedia is not always that accurate but it gives them a general idea of how population has increased. My link was merely to stir up their interest. They are always free on their own to Google other areas.

What do you see, Kleo, as the mathematical differences between geometric and exponetial increase? I am a psychologist, not a statistician or mathematician, so someone more trained that I (perhaps yourself?) might help us to use Malthusian equations. It is my belief, however, (unless someone here corrects me) that the general thoughts as presented by Darwin is enough to give us the idea.

Links are wonderful, even if giving the wrong information. It stimulates our back and forth participation. We can always call attention to an error. We are all serious in wanting to know more about Darwin and his theory but we are a light discussion group here, not a university class.

I don't believe that Bubble was implying that war was the "only" check on population. She is aware that there are plagues, tsunamis, etc. etc. She is very active in Story of Civilization and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if she wasn't thinking about what we have learned there when she made that comment.

The reminder to Subscribe didn't come from me but from PatWest who handles some of the technical aspects of Senior Net.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 19, 2006 - 02:04 pm
I think nature has its own way of dealing with overpopulation and even if man has been given the gift of intelligence, he cannot escape nature's constant aim at keeping a sustainable balance in its population in spite of the advancement of science. Even if wars ravage many countries, disease is a factor in correcting the imbalance by killing arbitrarily the good specimen as well as the bad in one massive sweep.

Humans and plants suffer diseases and regularly one comes along that no scientific discovery is available to eradicate or contain its advance. Recently, besides the AIDS pandemic that kills millions, the Avian flu virus rears its ugly head. In the National Geographic Magazine of October 2003, we read that World Health Organization in conjunction with University of Minnesota and Johns Hopkins University scientists project that the pandemic mortality rates will be between 180 to 360 million people if it spreads from person to person.

My father witnessed a whole wedding party getting the flu epidemic of 1918 and several died right then and there including the bride and groom.

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 19, 2006 - 02:15 pm
I too am constantly recalling what we learned in Story of Civilization and compare it in scope with Origin of Species. I am far from being knowledgable in sciences, I am only curious by nature but I don't always believe what science tells me.

KleoP
February 19, 2006 - 02:52 pm
I think it's enough work deciphering Darwin's English without trying to figure Wikipedia's gobbledygook:

"In mathematics, a quantity that grows exponentially (or geometrically) is one that grows at a rate proportional to its size. Such growth is said to follow an exponential law (but see also Malthusian growth model). This implies that for any exponentially growing quantity, the larger the quantity gets, the faster it grows. But it also implies that the relationship between the size of the dependent variable and its rate of growth is governed by a strict law, of the simplest kind: direct proportion. It is proved in calculus that this law requires that the quantity is given by the exponential function, if we use the correct time scale. This explains the name."

Earlier you suggested we read all of the links posted, Robby. In which case what's unreasonable in asking some consideration in posting accurate links that enhance rather than distract from reading Darwin? And if Darwin's ideas were sufficient, why include a link to something more at all?

I wanted you, Robby, to tell me the difference so I didn't have to go and look it up since you posted this article. Many psychologists use statistics, so it is not unreasonable to assume you do. My probability and statistics courses at Cal were full of budding psychologists.

Geometric growth models are a special instance of exponential growth models. The former showing the difference between different instants in time using a constant ratio and the latter being the continuous compounding of growth over an interval. And this just adds to my confusion for the moment because Malthusian growth models I've used have alwayd been linear differential equations. So, more questions.

I'll be glad to veer off into Malthusian equations if folks want, but will it really enhance Darwin?

Bubble is subtle and usually takes me a couple of days.

Kleo

robert b. iadeluca
February 19, 2006 - 03:14 pm
I guess I'm not "budding" enough. On with Darwin.

"But we have better evidence on this subject than mere theoretical calculations, namely, the numerous recorded cases of the astonishingly rapid increase of various animals in a state of nature, when circumstances have been favourable to them during two or three following seasons.

"Still more striking is the evidence from our domestic animals of many kinds which have run wild in several parts of the world. If the statements of the rate of increase of slow-breeding cattle and horses in South America, and latterly in Australia, had not been well authenticated, they would have been incredible.

"So it is with plants. Cases could be given of introduced plants which have become common throughout whole islands in a period of less than ten years. Several of the plants, such as the cardoon and a tall thistle, which are now the commonest over the whole plains of La Plata, clothing square leagues of surface almost to the exclusion of every other plant, have been introduced from Europe. There are plants which now range in India, as I hear from Dr. Falconer, from Cape Comorin to the Himalaya, which have been imported from America since its discovery.

"In such cases, and endless others could be given, no one supposes that the fertility of the animals or plants has been suddenly and temporarily increased in any sensible degree. The obvious explanation is that the conditions of life have been highly favourable -- that there has consequently been less destruction of the old and young -- and that nearly all the young have been enabled to breed.

"Their geometrical ratio of increase, the result of which never fails to be surprising, simply explains their extraordinarily rapid increase and wide diffusion in their new homes."

Darwin asks that we go past working on "theoretical calculations" and instead examine numerous cases of various animals and plants in a state of nature when circumstances were favorable to them.

He cites domestic animals and plants which were transported from one continent to another and have run wild.

He believes it ridiculous that their sudden increase was due to an increased fertility. Instead, he believes that their extraordinarily rapid increase (a geometical ratio) -- the diminished destruction of the old and young -- was due to highly favorable conditions of life. As I interpret it, a cooperative environment.

In my mind at the moment are the rabbits that had been transported to Australia and apparently got out of hand.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 19, 2006 - 03:25 pm
Read HERE about the "dangers" in transporting British rabbits and the European Red Fox to Australia.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 19, 2006 - 03:57 pm
The DEATH of another Species?

Robby

Bubble
February 20, 2006 - 12:25 am
Amazing how one acts first and only then starts thinking of consequences. To bring just a few bunnies for sport and hunting and not even dream that the end result would be the collapse of agriculture and of the local flora.

It's great of Nature to work hand in hand with Humans. They improve the environment (not always!) and plants will grow more numerous so as to provide plentiful food.

Yes Eloise, a plague could easily wipe out all those cultures for lack of enough diversity. The cyclic turn of life's wheel.. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2006 - 05:17 am
"In a state of nature almost every full-grown plant annually produces seed, and amongst animals there are very few which do not annually pair.

"Hence we may confidently assert, that all plants and animals are tending to increase at a geometrical ratio -- that all would rapidly stock every station in which they could anyhow exist -- and that this geometrical tendency to increase must be checked by destruction at some period of life.

"Our familiarity with the larger domestic animals tends, I think, to mislead us. We see no great destruction falling on them, but we do not keep in mind that thousands are annually slaughtered for food, and that in a state of nature an equal number would have somehow to be disposed of.

"The only difference between organisms which annually produce eggs or seeds by the thousand -- and those which produce extremely few -- is, that the slow-breeders would require a few more years to people -- under favourable conditions -- a whole district, let it be ever so large.

"The condor lays a couple of eggs and the ostrich a score, and yet in the same country the condor may be the more numerous of the two.

"The Fulmar petrel lays but one egg, yet it is believed to be the most numerous bird in the world.

"One fly deposits hundreds of eggs, and another, like the hippobosca, a single one. But this difference does not determine how many individuals of the two species can be supported in a district.

"A large number of eggs is of some importance to those species which depend on a fluctuating amount of food, for it allows them rapidly to increase in number. The real importance of a large number of eggs or seeds is to make up for much destruction at some period of life.

"This period in the great majority of cases is an early one. If an animal can in any way protect its own eggs or young, a small number may be produced, and yet the average stock be fully kept up. But if many eggs or young are destroyed, many must be produced, or the species will become extinct.

"It would suffice to keep up the full number of a tree, which lived on an average for a thousand years, if a single seed were produced once in a thousand years -- supposing that this seed were never destroyed -- and could be ensured to germinate in a fitting place.

"In all cases, the average number of any animal or plant depends only indirectly on the number of its eggs or seeds."

Darwin gives many examples to back up his theory that "if many young are destroyed, many must be produced, or the species will become extinct."

I think here of the human species. Centuries ago families were larger to compensate for early deaths from various reasons. Nowadays in developed nations the percentage of deaths is smaller and families are now smaller. In some developing nations families are still large to compensate for disease and other causes of death.

Darwin is helping us here to understand that wild animals and plants follow the same course.

Robby

Bubble
February 20, 2006 - 06:21 am
Many years ago, apart from illnesses and early death, families on a farm had many children, they needed lots of helping hands to produce what was necessary for survival and for prosperity. These children were also an insurance for old age. Now with the industrial revolution, modern automated agriculture, less people are needed, families grow smaller. Parents take into account the cost of education, of material needs versus the hard work to provide all that. The human species is somewhat different from fauna and flora.

Malryn
February 20, 2006 - 07:11 am

There is an interesting article about "how life got going" in today's Arts and Letters Daily

Mallylee
February 20, 2006 - 11:26 am
I.m not sure that the size of families in the developing world indicates that natural selection is at work to maintain the numbers of individuals. Since family size in the human is due to cultural norms and not by the female's ability to breed, I wonder if there is any use in the idea of a secondary form of natural selection which is determined by successful or unsuccessful cultures. I guess Nietszche would say yes sure there is

Scrawler
February 20, 2006 - 12:20 pm
I read recently that because of global warming many of our animals living in the North West like the wolf or fox are bringing their young out earlier than they should. This makes the young prey to the predators before they are old enough to defend themselves. I can see this even in my domestic cat who earlier in the year shed her winter fur coat because the weather here was so warm and now is cold because the temperature is once more dropped. I personally think "Man" (in general) are the greatest predators of our animals and plants. The wolf was hunted almost to extinction before someone stepped in to stop it. Don't you think that if left on its own "Nature" what take care of any imbalance and its man that makes the problem worse?

KleoP
February 20, 2006 - 02:27 pm
But isn't man part of nature?

The Bengal tiger is a subspecies, not a species. The article avoids science as well as it can. The Sunday comics had a page about tigers a few weeks ago. I love the Sunday kids page about a single topic.

Kleo

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2006 - 06:21 pm
"In looking at Nature, it is most necessary to keep the foregoing considerations always in mind- never to forget that every single organic being may be said to be striving to the utmost to increase in numbers.

"That each lives by a struggle at some period of its life. That heavy destruction inevitably falls either on the young or old, during each generation or at recurrent intervals.

"Lighten any cheek, mitigate the destruction ever so little, and the number of the species will almost instantaneously increase to any amount."

"EVERY single organic being" includes Homo Sapiens.

As far as this "old" being is concerned, I concentrate on fruit and vegetables, walk almost daily, and get a decent night's sleep. I can't help the increase any more (I don't think I can!) but I can sure fight my destruction to the best of my ability.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2006 - 06:25 pm
Nature of the Checks to Increase

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2006 - 06:34 pm
"The causes which check the natural tendency of each species to increase are most obscure.

"Look at the most vigorous species. By as much as it swarms in numbers, by so much will it tend to increase still further.

"We know not exactly what the checks are even in a single instance. Nor will this surprise any one who reflects how ignorant we are on this head -- even in regard to mankind -- although so incomparably better known than any other animal.

"This subject of the checks to increase has been ably treated by several authors, and I hope in a future work to discuss it at considerable length, more especially in regard to the feral animals of South America.

"Here I will make only a few remarks, just to recall to the reader's mind some of the chief points.

"Eggs or very young animals seem generally to suffer most. But this is not invariably the case.

"With plants there is a vast destruction of seeds, but, from some observations which I have made, it appears that the seedlings suffer most from germinating in ground already thickly stocked with other plants.

"Seedlings, also, are destroyed in vast numbers by various enemies. For instance, on a piece of ground three feet long and two wide, dug and cleared, and where there could be no choking from other plants, I marked all the seedlings of our native weeds as they came up, and out of 357 no less than 295 were destroyed, chiefly by slugs and insects.

"If turf which has long been mown -- and the case would be the same with turf closely browsed by quadrupeds -- be let to grow, the more vigorous plants gradually kill the less vigorous, though fully grown plants.

"Thus out of twenty species growing on a little plot of mown turf (three feet by four) nine species perished, from the other species being allowed to grow up freely."

Careful, children. They're out to kill you!

Robby

Mallylee
February 21, 2006 - 12:18 am
yes, but will evolution by natural selection be sufficient to right the balance of nature now that the predator , man, is in control of so much of non-human nature?

I realise this is departing from discussing O of S

Bubble
February 21, 2006 - 12:41 am
Malllylee, just a thought: maybe Nature has sufficient means to try and weed out that predator? One should look at it by the time ratio Nature works in, centuries. Someone did mention plagues. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2006 - 03:44 am
"The amount of food for each species of course gives the extreme limit to which each can increase.

"Very frequently it is not the obtaining food, but the serving as prey to other animals, which determines the average numbers of a species. Thus, there seems to be little doubt that the stock of partridges, grouse, and hares on any large estate depends chiefly on the destruction of vermin.

"If not one head of game were shot during the next twenty years in England, and, at the same time, if no vermin were destroyed, there would, in all probability, be less game than at present, although hundreds of thousands of game animals are now annually shot.

"On the other hand, in some cases, as with the elephant, none are destroyed by beasts of prey. Even the tiger in India most rarely dares to attack a young elephant protected by its dam."

Your comments, please?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2006 - 04:32 am
Is THIS a check on growth?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2006 - 04:36 am
Can a SPECIES split?

Robby

Bubble
February 21, 2006 - 05:26 am
Food is certainly the main factor of survival amd multiplying for a species. It will regulate all its life. Without the proper conditions, the individuals in the species will be weaker, less numerous and apt to be pushed aside or destroyed by other stronger species. That is the usual way in nature.
Availability of food can even regulate the next generation being mainly male or female in some animal species.

Isolation can certainly bring permanent changes. I can't remember where I read about 90+% of the population of an island or remote country where all the villagers had an extra toe on their feet - not that it would make it an asset for a better life.

KleoP
February 21, 2006 - 10:38 am
The NY Times article on the cichlids implies this is something brand new just found out about cichlids in Central America. Scientists have been hypothesizing sympatric speciation for cichlids in the rift lakes of East Africa for quite some time now. The Times article should have mentioned this. I don't think their science reporters read any science outside of what they publish.

For an article that discusses some of the roots of the conflict, much between Ernst Mayr and those who disagree with him:

"Now, there are good examples of sympatric speciation, most notably the cichlids in East Africa, and much of the growing evidence in support of the back-to-Darwin approach comes from these newly acknowledged cases."

Allopatric (Geographic) versus Sympatric (Darwinian) Speciation

Kleo

Mallylee
February 21, 2006 - 12:07 pm
#28 I don't see that of certain species growing on grazing ground , all the causes of their being discontinued could have been unknown. Was it not known in Darwin's time that horses and sheep crop short grass and cattle graze longer grass? Now, of course, I am quite sure that much more is known about the causes of weed species' disappearance.

Mallylee
February 21, 2006 - 12:13 pm
Bubbles, what you are saying seems Lovelace -like in its implications that nature is capable of trying anything. I dont myself think that there is any end cause .

for one thing, the species that have discontinued have no voices to say 'Nature has boobed badly'. For another thing, there is not any guarantee(except for Providence theists) that nature will continue to provide any habitats at all.

Mallylee
February 21, 2006 - 12:19 pm
I suppose Darwin means here by 'vermin' not only rats but also birds of prey. It's more than sad, that keepers on shooting estates illegally kill raptors to benefit f those idiots who shoot game birds for fun

Mallylee
February 21, 2006 - 12:22 pm
#32 re: bird flu.

That's good! I mean that the bird flu virus will become less virulent when it mutates into human-human variant

KleoP
February 21, 2006 - 01:20 pm
"#28 I don't see that of certain species growing on grazing ground , all the causes of their being discontinued could have been unknown. Was it not known in Darwin's time that horses and sheep crop short grass and cattle graze longer grass? Now, of course, I am quite sure that much more is known about the causes of weed species' disappearance."

I don't think this is what Darwin is saying. Yes, humans have known for thousands and thousands of years what grasses sheep versus cattle graze, because they're pasture animals.

I think Darwin is talking about why some proliferate and others don't, why some succumb to insects and others don't, but also what else do others fall to?

Kleo

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2006 - 07:00 pm
"Climate plays an important part in determining the average number of a species, and periodical seasons of extreme cold or drought seem to be the most effective of all checks.

"I estimated (chiefly from the greatly reduced numbers of nests in the spring) that the winter of 1854-5 destroyed four-fifths of the birds in my own grounds. This is a tremendous destruction, when we remember that ten per cent is an extraordinarily severe mortality from epidemics with man.

"The action of climate seems at first sight to be quite independent of the struggle for existence.

"But in so far as climate chiefly acts in reducing food, it brings on the most severe struggle between the individuals, whether of the same or of distinct species, which subsist on the same kind of food. Even when climate, for instance, extreme cold, acts directly, it will be the least vigorous individuals, or those which have got least food through the advancing winter, which will suffer most.

"When we travel from south to north, or from a damp region to a dry, we invariably see some species gradually getting rarer and rarer, and finally disappearing. The change of climate being conspicuous, we are tempted to attribute the whole effect to its direct action.

"This is a false view. We forget that each species, even where it most abounds, is constantly suffering enormous destruction at some period of its life, from enemies or from competitors for the same place and food.

"If these enemies or competitors be in the least degree favoured by any slight change of climate, they will increase in numbers. As each area is already fully stocked with inhabitants, the other species must decrease.

"When we travel southward and see a species decreasing in numbers, we may feel sure that the cause lies quite as much in other species being favoured, as in this one being hurt. So it is when we travel northward, but in a somewhat lesser degree. The number of species of all kinds, and therefore of competitors, decreases northwards. Hence in going northwards, or in ascending a mountain, we far oftener meet with stunted forms, due to the directly injurious action of climate, than we do in proceeding southwards or in descending a mountain.

"When we reach the arctic regions, or snowcapped summits, or absolute deserts, the struggle for life is almost exclusively with the elements.

"That climate acts in main part indirectly by favouring other species, we clearly see in the prodigious number of plants which in our gardens can perfectly well endure our climate, but which never become naturalised, for they cannot compete with our native plants nor resist destruction by our native animals."

Darwin is beginning to speak in a manner I can understand. How about you folks?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2006 - 07:05 pm
What is a TIMBER LINE?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2006 - 07:09 pm
How is the CLIMATE these days affecting the food supply.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2006 - 07:34 pm
What is the relationship between CLIMATE AND STRUGGLE FOR EXISTENCE?

Robby

KleoP
February 21, 2006 - 07:50 pm
I love getting the socialist viewpoint every once in a while: in the USA all Republicans are evil while all Democrats are gods.

Here's a Wikipedia blurb on the Kyoto Treaty just to show that the evil Bush is following the evil Clinton's tradition (depending upon which side of the coin one is on):

"The United States of America (USA), although a signatory to the protocol, has neither ratified nor withdrawn from the protocol. As the signature alone is mostly symbolic, the protocol is non-binding over the United States unless ratified.

On July 25, 1997, before the Kyoto Protocol was to be negotiated, the U.S. Senate unanimously passed by a 95–0 vote the Byrd-Hagel Resolution (S. Res. 98), which stated the sense of the Senate was that the United States should not be a signatory to any protocol that did not include binding targets and timetables for developing as well as industrialized nations or "would result in serious harm to the economy of the United States". On November 12, 1998, Vice President Al Gore symbolically signed the protocol. Both Gore and Senator Joseph Lieberman indicated that the protocol would not be acted upon in the Senate until there was participation by the developing nations CNN. The Clinton Administration never submitted the protocol to the Senate for ratification."

It's funny the socialist viewpoint doesn't see the Clinton buy-in:

"You know who they are: George Bush, who rejected Kyoto completely in 2001, and all those corporate heavyweights in oil, coal, and other fossil fuel industries whose energetic lobbying impelled Bush to take that action."

I don't think trying to understand Darwin via the radical viewpoints of the USA's party hacks, from either side, is going to be a fruitful exercise. Could we stick with science first, then see if we can judge whether the politicians are speaking true or falsehoods?

The Socialist Worker is NOT discussing the relationship between climate and the struggle for existence. They are not even really discussing politics, just the same old same old: Bush is all evil, other guy is all good, science requires the right party or wrong party or left party or west party, not science is science, whether you like it or not.

Kleo

Mallylee
February 22, 2006 - 02:35 am
Yes Robby, i can understand this , unlike how I would have to be working day in and day out with concepts of taxonomy to understand it.

I wonder if Darwin is going to introduce the impact of human culture on other species and on own species.

True, human culture has produced both the Kyoto Treaty and the environmental conditions that the Kyoto protocol addresses to some extent.We have to await the outcome of the opposition of certain cultures, the culture of capitalistic growth and the culture of international co-operation.

Mallylee
February 22, 2006 - 02:51 am
I wonder if Darwin has anything like a modern concept of ecology.By this I mean how there is a web of causes and effects which interplay in the determination of survival or both individuals and whole species.

For instance, it may turn out that if a pandemic among humans occurs, this could alleviate human struggle for existence by making less demand on agricultural land and water. What are the causes of bird flu? The veterinary epidemic,which is becoming pandemic,has as one cause a micro-organism which is a random mutation of some similar bird virus.I wonder what caused this avian virus mutation to flourish.

I bet it's a whole clump of causes that make the avian virus enjoy the habitat it found in Indonesian poultry.

Or was the habitat always present, and it took an opportunistic new virus to exploit it? In either case, it's possible that human culture had a lot to do with the habitat, perhaps human culture causing poultry living in small yards where the same species had lived for generations .

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 22, 2006 - 02:58 am
Would implementing the Kyoto accord mean THE END OF SUBURBIA "oil depletion and the collapse of the American Dream?"

Flying over the Eastern seaboard on a clear night all you see are city lights, with their urban sprawl, all touching one another from Florida to Montreal. Can we really turn that around and go back to living all crowded together in mega cities or on a farm? I don't think so, it's too late now, the Canadian Arctic ice is melting so fast it uncovers land that no man has ever seen before.

KleoP
February 22, 2006 - 12:17 pm
Malllylee: "I wonder if Darwin has anything like a modern concept of ecology."

Yes, The Origins of Species is considered the first modern ecology book, although von Humboldt is probably the "father" of modern ecology.

Viruses recombine and flourish all the time, that's why we get a different flu shot most years (except, of course, when it's a crooked doctor injecting saline).

Eloise, it may simply mean the slowing of it in industrial nations and the unbridled quest for it in developing nations. Why wouldn't they go after suburbia with the same lust the First World has?

North Americans want their outdoors preserved and they want to live on a big parcel of land. There's a community in the California Foothills (Goldrush country) that is fighting a development because of its high density (one home per 3/4 acre). They're miffed that the development agency wants to cut down the oaks. Well, let's see, they want more land per house and they want to keep the oaks?

I would gladly live on less land if it meant I could keep more of the outdoors undeveloped.

Megacities are where viruses probably jump species barriers. It's not that the suitable host is always available, but there are so many different choices to choose from, one will eventually be found that suits. Then the virus recombines with the human and voila! it's better suited to all humans.

Kleo

Scrawler
February 22, 2006 - 04:59 pm
I recently had to move because "the powers that be" wanted to tear down my perfectly good apartment complex to put up a parking garage. My complex backed into a forest and that too was on the chopping block. I was more upset of losing the forest because the animals couldn't fight the humans intruding onto their land they have lived on for years. I was sadden more for them than for myself. I finally found an apartment closer in town that because of it structure makes me fell like I'm living in a tree house - so I'm happy. This is just one example how homo sapiens are intruding on the natural struggle for survival.

Now if you also add the climate changes, how long well it be before humans out number the animals. Since we depend on these animals for food where will that leave us? Just recently I read that we have a shortage of salmon - something the North west has been famous for years for. I know that restaurants here don't serve swordfish any more because its to expensive to ship and people won't pay (myself included) the more expensive prices.

robert b. iadeluca
February 22, 2006 - 06:23 pm
Kleo:-I am confused as to how your political remarks in Post 45 relate to Darwin's book.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 22, 2006 - 06:30 pm
"When a species, owing to highly favourable circumstances, increases inordinately in numbers in a small tract, epidemics-- at least, this seems generally to occur with our game animals-- often ensue. Here we have a limiting check independent of the struggle for life.

"But even some of these so-called epidemics appear to be due to parasitic worms, which have from some cause, possibly in part through facility of diffusion amongst the crowded animals, been disproportionally favoured. Here comes in a sort of struggle between the parasite and its prey.

"On the other hand, in many cases, a large stock of individuals of the same species, relatively to the numbers of its enemies, is absolutely necessary for its preservation.

"Thus we can easily raise plenty of corn and rape-seed, &c., in our fields, because the seeds are in great excess compared with the number of birds which feed on them. Nor can the birds, though having a super-abundance of food at this one season, increase in number proportionally to the supply of seed, as their numbers are checked during the winter. Any one who has tried, knows how troublesome it is to get seed from a few wheat or other such plants in a garden. I have in this case lost every single seed.

"This view of the necessity of a large stock of the same species for its preservation, explains, I believe, some singular facts in nature, such as that of very rare plants being sometimes extremely abundant, in the few spots where they do exist -- and that of some social plants being social, that is abounding in individuals, even on the extreme verge of their range.

"In such cases, we may believe, that a plant could exist only where the conditions of its life were so favourable that many could exist together, and thus save the species from utter destruction.

"I should add that the good effects of intercrossing, and the ill effects of close interbreeding, no doubt come into play in many of these cases; but I will not here enlarge on this subject."

Any comments about this paragraph?

Robby

KleoP
February 22, 2006 - 06:36 pm
That's okay, Robby, I'm confused how your political post that generated my response relates to Darwin's book.

Politics isn't science.

Kleo

Sunknow
February 22, 2006 - 09:30 pm
Regarding the surviving Species always being the one with the most stock. It seems obvious to me that certain Species spend their entire existance trying to get the best of all other Species. An example of that might be a demonstration that we see here, often, where one poster constantly trys to get best of all others....often creating an unpleasent atmosphere.

I suppose we must remain calm and perservere since Darwin assures us: " ....a large stock of individuals of the same species....... is absolutely necessary for its preservation." I hope so, against all odds.

If my remarks seem to be taken out of context, that shouldn't be too much of a problem. Politics isn't the only thing that isn't science

Sun

Mallylee
February 23, 2006 - 01:50 am
I have been assuming that we can use readings from Darwin's book to try to shed light on current events .

I also assumed that we are reading Darwin's book to try to understand the science that Darwin himself was engaged with.

Are both of these applications of 'Origins' okay here?

Mallylee
February 23, 2006 - 01:58 am
Thinking of the veterinary pandemic, I wonder if the new strain of bird flu got started largely because the poultry that are kept and marketed in Indonesia are close together in small back yards, and the small back yards are close together, and human vectors interact a lot.

Then, when the poultry are marketed, they are even closer to each other, and closer to human vectors.(BTW is bird flu passed from man to bird as well as vice versa?) Perhaps the only reason that Western caged battery birds are not so far infected although they live in unhygienic conditions, is that they get feed laced with antivirals.Actually I dont know that they do, but I am pretty sure they get feed laced with antibacterials, that's standard for factory farmed animals for reasons of their unhygienic living conditions

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2006 - 05:18 am
Mallylee:-As indicated at the start of this discussison group, our goal is to move along with Darwin, following his thinking, and in that way better understanding his theory of evolution. To better do that, as indicated at the start, we will stay away from politics and religion as those topics (we have found by bitter experience in Senior Net!) have the ability to cause dissension in the discussion and pull us away from the original goal.

Current events, yes -- but refraining from naming political figures or parties and refraining from putting a religious slant on what we are reading.

We also want to refrain from knowledge that Darwin didn't have at the time. For example:-I have often seen articles about DNA or genes in the news and they related to evolution but I did not post them because Darwin never heard of DNA.

Robby

KleoP
February 23, 2006 - 09:50 am
"It seems obvious to me that certain Species spend their entire existance trying to get the best of all other Species."

This is inaccurate. It's not that certain species try to "get the best of all other Species" so much as certain species may be better adapted to the conditions or larger species, just because there are more individuals, may contain greater diversity. It seems obvious to me that a species of plant with one million individuals may contain more different types of individuals than a species with only 5 individuals.

"An example of that might be a demonstration that we see here, often, where one poster constantly trys to get best of all others....often creating an unpleasent atmosphere."

And, just like in nature, if one individual is better adapted to the situation by having studied and currently studying ecology and evolution of plants and genetics, that individual may be better adapted to understanding Darwin than other individuals.

The excellent point being made here is that the species is not necessarily "trying to get the best of all other Species" but simply trying to survive and reproduce like in its own environment. To attach motivations other than this to any species is to anthropomorphize nature to the extreme.

As to "trying to get best of all other Species?" This is my area of study, the ecology and evolutionary history of plants. That I know more than people who don't study in this area is no more my "trying to get the best" than your plumber "trying to get the best" of you when he's fixing your pipes and knows more than you.

Maybe this is just a sign of human competition and one of us will get the premium mate from this display.

It gets tiresome having to pretent you don't know something just because you might possibly know more about something than another person who will be offended by it.

Get the best of everyone? No. I'm trying to read Darwin for understanding, and I object to a purely political article that has nothing whatsoever to do with science being included as a link.

You'd rather read and learn Darwin without me? Go for it.

Kleo

Bubble
February 23, 2006 - 10:16 am
I didn't know we were in a competition.
I was hoping for a friendly reading research in common, not for homing on others' mistaken views.
I had overlooked one needed to be "adapted" so as to understand Darwin. Mea culpa. Sorry. Bubble

Malryn
February 23, 2006 - 02:21 pm

INTERESTING talk today. You know, when this discussion first started I got mad at KLEO for jumping on ROBBY, it seemed to me, and tallking about the edition of this book we should read. That was a non-issue, I thought, and I wanted to get on with it.

Of course, it was not a non-issue. Darwin couldn't make up his mind, and he had reason for that.

But I'm jumping ahead of myself . It didn't take long for me to realize that KLEO was sounding just as my former husband had. He took his Ph.D. in Inorganic Chemistry at Brown and did work in Cryogenic Physics at Duke University,and more at Harvard. To this day does scientific work in his mid-70's.

He had a different way of thinking from mine. Trouble was, he was convinced that it was superior. "Marilyn," he used to say, "you're too personal and emotional. You put yourself and all you know in everything." During the many years we were married I realized that the "all you know" was what hindered me. If I were to understand the hard things, and the things my artistically, musically, creative-in-those-areas self had to put what I didn't know into the way I thought and everything else.

I had trouble with Solid Geometry in high school, and a tutor was hired to keep me on the High Honor Roll. There was a scholarship to an expensive college pending, and I had to "make the grade."

Algebra had been easy for me; it was like a language. In contrast geometry seemed dull. Trig was okay, but Solid Geometry? Forget it.

Somehow this old lady tutor made a door open in my mind. She made me "see" things differently and made me think differently. This has happened a few times in my life, but the old arty me always barges in and closes that fine door, or obscures the view.

I see here in this discussion a chance to open it a little again, so decided mostly to listen and learn. From KLEO, who with her knowledge and experience is nudging my memory about an open door again, and from all of you whose comments make me think.

Yes, I think I must be altered to understand what little I can of Darwin. I had to alter my thinking when we began the Story of Civilization discussion. These discussions are going on at an extremely painful time of my life when "to be or not to be" has been in the forefront of my mind. Don't kid yourself about "will to live".

It's been a time of changes and of a major physical move for me. There's a lot going on in this what's-the-number? chapter of my life. Maybe a few of the doors of my mind that I've allowed slowly to shut, will open again and when the time comes for me to play that last cadenza, or put that final fleck of paint on a painting that, like all of my others, will never be finished in my mind, I will have begun to see a bit of light.

I've told my family there are lot of books I have to write, a lot of things I have to finish and learn. In a way, this is how a scientist thinks. Any kind of help from any quarter in this last lap or two will be accepted and appreciated.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2006 - 05:21 pm
PRINCIPLES, NOT PERSONALITIES.

I don't consider anyone here an expert regardless of the amount of grad training and regardless of the letters after the name. And that includes myself.

We are a group of interested friends sitting around in our living room, each with our own expertise, and with that expertise we can use logic regardless of our scientific background.

I dislike intensely the word "expert" or its implication.

Let us refrain from mentioning each other's names except in complimentary form.

Robby

Malryn
February 23, 2006 - 05:27 pm

Did I say something wrong or offend somebody? I think you're all swell.

So long.

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2006 - 05:39 pm
We're all sweet people. Shall we move on?

Robby

Mippy
February 23, 2006 - 05:40 pm
Well said, Robby.

Pax vobiscum! Peace be with you ... with all of us, actually.

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2006 - 05:41 pm
Complex Relations of all Animals and Plants to each other in the Struggle for Existence

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2006 - 05:49 pm
"Many cases are on record showing how complex and unexpected are the checks and relations between organic beings, which have to struggle together in the same country.

"I will give only a single instance, which, though a simple one, interested me.

"In Staffordshire, on the estate of a relation, where I had ample means of investigation, there was a large and extremely barren heath, which had never been touched by the hand of man. Several hundred acres of exactly the same nature had been enclosed twenty-five years previously and planted with Scotch fir.

"The change in the native vegetation of the planted part of the heath was most remarkable, more than is generally seen in passing from one quite different soil to another. Not only the proportional numbers of the heath-plants were wholly changed, but twelve species of plants (not counting grasses and carices) flourished in the plantations, which could not be found on the heath.

"The effect on the insects must have been still greater, for six insectivorous birds were very common in the plantations, which were not to be seen on the heath. The heath was frequented by two or three distinct insectivorous birds.

"Here we see how potent has been the effect of the introduction of a single tree, nothing whatever else having been done, with the exception of the land having been enclosed, so that cattle could not enter.

"But how important an element enclosure is, I plainly saw near Farnham, in Surrey. Here there are extensive heaths, with a few clumps of old Scotch firs on the distant hilltops. Within the last ten years large spaces have been enclosed, and self-sown firs are now springing up in multitudes, so close together that all cannot live.

"When I ascertained that these young trees had not been sown or planted, I was so much surprised at their numbers that I went to several points of view, whence I could examine hundreds of acres of the unenclosed heath. Literally I could not see a single Scotch fir, except the old planted clumps.

"But on looking closely between the stems of the heath, I found a multitude of seedlings and little trees which had been perpetually browsed down by the cattle. In one square yard, at a point some hundred yards distant from one of the old clumps, I counted thirty-two little trees. One of them, with twenty-six rings of growth, had, during many years, tried to raise its head above the stems of the heath, and had failed.

"No wonder that, as soon as the land was enclosed, it became thickly clothed with vigorously growing young firs.

"Yet the heath was so extremely barren and so extensive that no one would ever have imagined that cattle would have so closely and effectually searched it for food."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 23, 2006 - 06:04 pm
We were taught as children to adapt to constant change of surroundings and derive from it the best thing we could, in spite of dire circumstances.

I think that species, which are existing now are those who have gone through the mill in order to survive since the beginning, even if it meant stepping all over others in order to be the best they can be. A weed will do that, an animal will do it and humans do it too.

If we put an ordinary flour from a field, like a daisie and cultivate it, nurture it so that it grows prettier, that is easy. But if you see an ordinary flour bud and it grows to become one of extraordinary beauty in its wild and violent surroundings, that shows strength and determination.

The struggle for survival in spite of terrible odds determines endurance of structure and that one is chosen over others for reproduction.

Is this what Darwin is saying? I know it sounds simplistic, but I am a slow learner.

Phoenixaq
February 23, 2006 - 07:39 pm
Robbie, I think your post #16 was clear and that it summed up fro the moment what Darwin is writing about, so maybe noone has anything to add at this time. So, can we move on?

Mallylee
February 24, 2006 - 01:10 am
I agree with Phoenix, this is clear.I womder if Darwin will go on to generalise about how any great or small change in the environment will cause the whole ecology to change

robert b. iadeluca
February 24, 2006 - 06:44 pm
"Here we see that cattle absolutely determine the existence of the Scotch fir. But in several parts of the world insects determine the existence of cattle.

"Perhaps Paraguay offers the most curious instance of this. Here neither cattle nor horses nor dogs have ever run wild, though they swarm southward and northward in a feral state.

"Azara and Rengger have shown that this is caused by the greater number in Paraguay of a certain fly, which lays its eggs in the navels of these animals when first born. The increase of these flies, numerous as they are, must be habitually checked by some means, probably by other parasitic insects.

"Hence, if certain insectivorous birds were to decrease in Paraguay, the parasitic insects would probably increase. This would lessen the number of the navel-frequenting flies- then cattle and horses would become feral, and this would certainly greatly alter -- as indeed I have observed in parts of South America -- the vegetation. This again would largely affect the insects -- and this, as we have just seen in Staffordshire, the insectivorous birds -- and so onwards in ever-increasing circles of complexity.

"Not that under nature the relations will ever be as simple as this. Battle within battle must be continually recurring with varying success. Yet in the long run the forces are so nicely balanced, that the face of nature remains for long periods of time uniform, though assuredly the merest trifle would give the victory to one organic being over another.

"Nevertheless, so profound is our ignorance, and so high our presumption, that we marvel when we hear of the extinction of an organic being. As we do not see the cause, we invoke cataclysms to desolate the world, or invent laws on the duration of the forms of life!"

An interesting relationship in Paraguay.

1 - No cattle and horses run feral.
2 - Due to a fly which lays its eggs in the navels of these animals.
3 - Other parasitic insects check these flies.

1 - If insect-eating birds were to decrease
2 - Parasitic insects would increase
3 - Navel-frequenting flies would lessen
4 - Cattle and horses would become feral and
5 - This would alter the vegetation.

Altering the vegetation -- would affect the insects -- which would then affect the insect-eating birds -- etc. etc. in a constant circle.

Darwin calls it a "battle within a battle" generally nicely balanced but a slight change could affect the whole situation wherein one organism would win out over the other.

Robby

Bubble
February 25, 2006 - 01:08 am
Some kids or youth would benefit from that fly on their navel, better than re-educational school!!

Mallylee
February 25, 2006 - 02:03 am
I see now that Darwin focuses on whole ecologies, as Kleo has said

georgehd
February 25, 2006 - 04:02 am
I am now back on line after hip replacement. Since I missed three weeks of the discussion, I will try to catch up this week as some of the material you covered is very important. Hope to rejoin at the end of next week.

Bubble
February 25, 2006 - 04:20 am
Welcome back George! Totally recovered?

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2006 - 05:03 am
Good to have you back, George! I assume you didn't need a brain replacement and that your mind is as sharp as ever.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2006 - 05:21 am
"I am tempted to give one more instance showing how plants and animals, remote in the scale of nature, are bound together by a web of complex relations.

"I shall hereafter have occasion to show that the exotic Lobelia fulgens is never visited in my garden by insects -- and consequently, from its peculiar structure, never sets a seed.

"Nearly all our orchidaceous plants absolutely require the visits of insects to remove their pollen-masses and thus to fertilise them. I find from experiments that bumble-bees are almost indispensable to the fertilisation of the heartsease (Viola tricolor), for other bees do not visit this flower.

"I have also found that the visits of bees are necessary for the fertilisation of some kinds of clover. For instance, 90 heads of Dutch clover (Trifolium repens) yielded 2,290 seeds, but 20 other heads protected from bees produced not one. Again, 100 heads of red clover (T. pratense) produced 2,700 seeds, but the same number of protected heads produced not a single seed. Bumble-bees alone visit red clover, as other bees cannot reach the nectar.

"It has been suggested that moths may fertilise the clovers. I doubt whether they could do so in the case of the red clover, from their weight not being sufficient to depress the wing petals.

"Hence we may infer as highly probable that, if the whole genus of bumble-bees became extinct or very rare in England, the heartsease and red clover would become very rare, or wholly disappear.

"The number of bumble-bees in any district depends in a great measure upon the number of field-mice, which destroy their combs and nests. Col. Newman, who has long attended to the habits of bumble-bees, believes that "more than two-thirds of them are thus destroyed all over England."

"The number of mice is largely dependent, as every one knows, on the number of cats. Col. Newman says, "Near villages and small towns I have found the nests of bumble-bees more numerous than elsewhere, which I attribute to the number of cats that destroy the mice." Hence it is quite credible that the presence of a feline animal in large numbers in a district might determine, through the intervention first of mice and then of bees, the frequency of certain flowers in that district!"

Throughout this paragraph the term "humble-bees" was used and I changed it with the belief that the typist had made a typo. Maybe I was wrong and that, indeed in England a couple of centuries ago they referred to them as humble-bees.

Any comments about this paragraph?

Robby

Mippy
February 25, 2006 - 06:50 am
A Big Welcome Back, George!
We missed you!
Having your comments again will be great!

Yes, Robbie ~
Humble bees are bumble bees.
Some old British novels also mentioned them, it's not a typo!

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 25, 2006 - 06:52 am
Accoding to THIS Robby, the term humble bee was used in Britain and now, especially in America the term bumble bee is in favor. Languages evolve too, along with everything else in the world.

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2006 - 07:00 am
Well, I suppose their soft buzz does have an air of humility about it.

Aside from that, any reaction to Darwin's remarks?

Robby

Bubble
February 25, 2006 - 07:23 am
Personally I needed it to be pointed out to realize the complexity of relations between plants, insects, animals, climate too and how a tiny change could have huge consequences. It is awesome how that fragile balance is maintained.

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2006 - 07:31 am
THIS is not the same as what Darwin is describing but does help us to realize, as Bubble says, the enormity of relationships.

Robby

Bubble
February 25, 2006 - 07:42 am
"A new conception was being made....that whatever fundamental units the world is put together from,they are more delicate,more fugitive,more startling than we catch in the Butterfly Net of our senses. Jacob Bronowski "The Ascent of Man" .

That last quote says it all. I am not sure our senses can absorb it all.

Phoenixaq
February 25, 2006 - 09:55 am
I haven't seen a message since Feb 19 - including mine that I posted yesterday.

Scrawler
February 25, 2006 - 11:25 am
Since we, homo sapiens, are part of this fragile balance as Bubble pointed out how do we fit in. It seems that unlike many others we have few natural predators depending on where we live in this world.

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2006 - 02:05 pm
Scrawler:-Aren't disease, famine, hurricanes, etc. our predators?

Robby

Bubble
February 25, 2006 - 02:19 pm
and wars, accidents... we are our own enemies.

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2006 - 02:36 pm
But Bubble, isn't there a difference between a hurricane, which is a predator, and which we didn't cause, and an accident, which we did?

Robby

Bubble
February 25, 2006 - 02:45 pm
I believe there is the side of accident (car accident) that has it happened to them, even though they may have been very careful to follow all the rules. We prey on our own species too.

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2006 - 06:00 pm
"In the case of every species, many different checks, acting at different periods of life, and during different seasons or years, probably come into play -- some one check or some few being generally the most potent.

"But all will concur in determining the average number or even the existence of the species.

"In some cases it can be shown that widely-different checks act on the same species in different districts. When we look at the plants and bushes clothing an entangled bank, we are tempted to attribute their proportional numbers and kinds to what we call chance.

"But how false a view is this! Every one has heard that when an American forest is cut down a very different vegetation springs up. But it has been observed that ancient Indian ruins in the southern United States, which must formerly have been cleared of trees, now display the same beautiful diversity and proportion of kinds as in the surrounding virgin forest.

"What a struggle must have gone on during long centuries between the several kinds of trees each annually scattering its seeds by the thousand -- what war between insect and insect- between insects, snails, and other animals with birds and beasts of prey -- all striving to increase, all feeding on each other, or on the trees, their seeds and seedlings, or on the other plants which first clothed the ground and thus checked the growth of the trees!

"Throw up a handful of feathers, and all fall to the ground according to definite laws. But how simple is the problem where each shall fall compared to that of the action and reaction of the innumerable plants and animals which have determined -- in the course of centuries -- the proportional numbers and kinds of trees now growing on the old Indian ruins!"

Once again - let me see if I have this. Darwin says that every single species has something or other which checks it (holds it back or destroys it). This might happen at different ages of the organism. Or it might happen during certain seasons. And when something happens to a particular species, we might, Darwin says, attribute this to chance.

But he is very firm in saying that this is not so. He sees any destruction of a species as having been the result of a struggle -- a struggle (at least in the case of certain trees) that probably lasted for centuries. The trees on one hand scattering around thousands of seeds. The insects feeding on the trees and they, in turn, being eaten by other insects, animals, and birds.

Darwin's conclusion is that the current kinds and numbers of trees and other organisms is determined by "the action and reaction of the innumerable plants and animals."

Speak up, folks. What are your thoughts on this matter?

Robby

Bubble
February 26, 2006 - 01:20 am
I reread the passage and understood that when a whole forest is cut down, a different vegetation will grow up in its place, but it seems that after an undetermined long period, the original vegetation, the trees, will cover that area again and it will have become indistiguishable from the surrounding growth. All this because of the interaction between plants, insects and animals. Bubble

Mallylee
February 26, 2006 - 02:58 am
Disease -producing microorganisms check the growth of the human species, and are likely to continue to do so by epidemics and even pandemics.

For instance the rearing of food animals in intensive conditions is unhygienic, so the feed has been laced with antibiotics to prevent the animals getting infectious diseases.

One result is that disease-producing organisms randomly produce mutants that can resist the effect of specific antibiotics. These have the advantage over non-mutants as the mutant microbes can prey on the animals without the antobiotic checks.

The mutant microbes then become the dominant strain of that microbe, and the farmers have then introduced other specific antibiotics with eventually the same result-- a dominant mutant strain.

Worse, humans ingest the antibiotic residues with the result that the antibiotics in the humans go to work on the sort of pathogenic organisms that cause diseases in humans. Mutant organisms occur, they become the dominant strain, and the result is that this strain which can resist antibiotic therapy is useless in the fight against human diseases.

Then there are mutant strains of pathogenic microorganisms that can cross the species barrier. Bird flu is the latest scare, although so far we dont know of any human to human infections

robert b. iadeluca
February 26, 2006 - 05:23 am
"The dependency of one organic being on another, as of a parasite on its prey, lies generally between beings remote in the scale of nature.

"This is likewise sometimes the case with those which may be strictly said to struggle with each other for existence, as in the case of locusts and grass-feeding quadrupeds.

"But the struggle will almost invariably be most severe between the individuals of the same species, for they frequent the same districts, require the same food, and are exposed to the same dangers.

"In the case of varieties of the same species, the struggle will generally be almost equally severe, and we sometimes see the contest soon decided. For instance, if several varieties of wheat be sown together -- and the mixed seed be resown -- some of the varieties which best suit the soil or climate, or are naturally the most fertile, will beat the others and so yield more seed -- and will consequently in a few years supplant the other varieties.

"To keep up a mixed stock of even such extremely close varieties as the variously-coloured sweet peas, they must be each year harvested separately -- and the seed then mixed in due proportion -- otherwise the weaker kinds will steadily decrease in number and disappear.

"So again with the varieties of sheep. It has been asserted that certain mountain-varieties will starve out other mountain-varieties, so that they cannot be kept together.

"The same result has followed from keeping together different varieties of the medicinal leech.

"It may even be doubted whether the varieties of any of our domestic plants or animals have so exactly the same strength, habits, and constitution -- that the original proportions of a mixed stock (crossing being prevented) could be kept up for half-a-dozen generations -- if they were allowed to struggle together, in the same manner as beings in a state of nature, and if the seed or young were not annually preserved in due proportion."

"The struggle will almost invariably be most severe between the individuals of the same species. They frequent the same districts, require the same food, and are exposed to the same dangers."

If I can extrapolate a bit, I wonder if this is why we get along better with dogs and horses than we sometimes do with ourselves. "I want what you've got. You have what belongs to me."

Robby

Mallylee
February 26, 2006 - 08:55 am
I think it is a reason we get on better with species that co-exist in the same geographical area and need different food from ours. Except for dogs which eat the same food as humans but which are opportunistically inclined to suck up to whoever feeds them, especially perhaps those individual dogs who are not alpha males, but who are the more docile individuals.

I am interested that Darwin has distinguished between parasites and species that live in close proximity but are not parasites.

There is a variety of sheep in Orkney Islands that have evolved naturally to eat a lot of seaweed, a diet that contains so much iodine that it would poison mainland sheep.These sheep live close to the shores. I think some experimenter tried it once with an Orkney flock in England, and the sheep failed.

Scrawler
February 26, 2006 - 11:49 am
I would tend to agree that we all get along better when we co-exist or when one species perhaps depends on another for its existence. Most of the time my cat ignores me except when she's hungry or wants my warm bed.

I also felt the passion that Darwin felt for his work come out in the last few paragraphs. These pargraphs don't read so cold as some of his previous ones did.

robert b. iadeluca
February 26, 2006 - 01:45 pm
I agree with you, Scrawler. He is easier to understand. Partly because we are beginning to "get the picture" and partly because it was necessary for him to give us the basic solid foundation before building the framework.

It should be more and more fun as we move along.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 27, 2006 - 05:00 am
Struggle for Life most severe between Individuals and Varieties of the same Species

robert b. iadeluca
February 27, 2006 - 05:09 am
"As the species of the same genus usually have, though by no means invariably -- much similarity in habits and constitution, and always in structure -- the struggle will generally be more severe between them -- if they come into competition with each other -- than between the species of distinct genera.

"We see this in the recent extension over parts of the United States of one species of swallow having caused the decrease of another species.

"The recent increase of the missel-thrush in parts of Scotland has caused the decrease of the song-thrush.

"How frequently we hear of one species of rat taking the place of another species under the most different climates!

"In Russia the small Asiatic cockroach has everywhere driven before it its great congener.

"In Australia the imported hive-bee is rapidly exterminating the small, stingless native bee.

"One species of charlock has been known to supplant another species -- and so in other cases.

"We can dimly see why the competition should be most severe between allied forms, which fill nearly the same place in the economy of nature; but probably in no one case could we precisely say why one species has been victorious over another in the great battle of life."

I find it difficult not to think of homo sapiens as Darwin speaks of the "great battle of life" between members of the same species. "The struggle is severe."

But we are a "thinking" species and the cockroach is not. I need to be careful in drawing analogies.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 27, 2006 - 06:14 am
Is THIS an example of climate affecting a species?

Robby

Mippy
February 27, 2006 - 08:00 am
To repeat part of the quote from Darwin:
"We can ... see why the competition should be most severe between allied forms, which fill nearly the same place in the economy of nature; but probably in no one case could we precisely say why one species has been victorious over another in the great battle of life."

Robby ~
Please let's stay away from Homo sapiens, here. Yes, you are indeed very careful in drawing analogies, and your summaries are very helpful.

The sentence from Darwin can be read as the foundation of the discipline called Ecology, having
the same word root as Economics.
Suppose there are only a fixed about of resources for similar species to share, or to use up. When resources (food or nesting space, for example) are in short supply, either due to geography (an island, for example) or due to climate change, only the most "fit" species will triumph. Nature red in tooth and claw...

Here's a link to Ecology:
Ecology

robert b. iadeluca
February 27, 2006 - 03:39 pm
"A corollary of the highest importance may be deduced from the foregoing remarks -- namely, that the structure of every organic being is related -- in the most essential yet often hidden manner -- to that of all the other organic beings, with which it comes into competition for food or residence -- or from which it has to escape, or on which it preys.

"This is obvious in the structure of the teeth and talons of the tiger -- and in that of the legs and claws of the parasite which clings to the hair on the tiger's body.

"But in the beautifully plumed seed of the dandelion, and in the flattened and fringed legs of the water-beetle, the relation seems at first confined to the elements of air and water.

"Yet the advantage of plumed seeds no doubt stands in the closest relation to the land being already thickly clothed with other plants -- so that the seeds may be widely distributed and fall on unoccupied ground.

"In the water-beetle, the structure of its legs, so well adapted for diving, allows it to compete with other aquatic insects -- to hunt for its own prey -- and to escape serving as prey to other animals."

Interesting. "The structure of every organic being is related to that of all the other organic beings with which it comes into competition."

Hm-m-m. I need to think about that a bit.

Robby

Scrawler
February 28, 2006 - 12:17 pm
I can see where animals have claws and teeth to which when attacked by the same animal can protect themselves, but I never thought about plants in the same way.

robert b. iadeluca
February 28, 2006 - 07:15 pm
"The store of nutriment laid up within the seeds of many plants seems at first to have no sort of relation to other plants.

"But from the strong growth of young plants produced from such seeds -- as peas and beans, when sown in the midst of long grass -- it may be suspected that the chief use of the nutriment in the seed is to favour the growth of the seedlings, whilst struggling with other plants growing vigorously all around.

"Look at a plant in the midst of its range. Why does it not double or quadruple its numbers?

"We know that it can perfectly well withstand a little more heat or cold, dampness or dryness. Elsewhere it ranges into slightly hotter or colder, damper or drier districts.

"In this case we can clearly see that if we wish in imagination to give the plant the power of increasing in number, we should have to give it some advantage over its competitors, or over the animals which prey on it.

"On the confines of its geographical range, a change of constitution with respect to climate would clearly be an advantage to our plant. But we have reason to believe that only a few plants or animals range so far, that they are destroyed exclusively by the rigour of the climate.

"Not until we reach the extreme confines of life, in the Arctic regions or on the borders of an utter desert, will competition cease. The land may be extremely cold or dry, yet there will be competition between some few species, or between the individuals of the same species, for the warmest or dampest spots."

OK. I get that. The nutrient within the seed helps the seedling which is trying to "beat out" the other plants near it. It needs strength, not only to grow, but to "fight" its competitors.

Elementary?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 28, 2006 - 07:53 pm
Is this the STRUGGLE FOR LIFE?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2006 - 04:13 am
"Hence we can see that when a plant or animal is placed in a new country amongst new competitors, the conditions of its life will generally be changed in an essential manner, although the climate may be exactly the same as in its former home.

"If its average numbers are to increase in its new home, we should have to modify it in a different way to what we should have had to do in its native country. We should have to give it some advantage over a different set of competitors or enemies.

"It is good thus to try in imagination to give to any one species an advantage over another. Probably in no single instance should we know what to do.

"This ought to convince us of our ignorance on the mutual relations of all organic beings -- a conviction as necessary as it is difficult to acquire.

"All that we can do, is to keep steadily in mind that each organic being is striving to increase in a geometrical ratio. Each at some period of its life, during some season of the year, during each generation or at intervals, has to struggle for life and to suffer great destruction.

"When we reflect on this struggle, we may console ourselves with the full belief, that the war of nature is not incessant -- that no fear is felt -- that death is generally prompt -- and that the vigorous, the healthy, and the happy survive and multiply."

These are the final paragraphs of Chapter Three. Before going on to Chapter Four I would appreciate some comments about this chapter which, you may recall, is entitled "Struggle for Existence."

Robby

Bubble
March 1, 2006 - 05:21 am
#post 103. I have no bro nor sis. This article touched me deeply for unknown un- understood reasons, so much so I cannot talk about it.

georgehd
March 1, 2006 - 08:28 am
Just an update. I have finished reading most of the first section of this discuss - up to post 1025. Will now try to catch up to where you are now.

The posts were most interesting and I am appreciative of the work and thought that the group has put into this discussion.

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 1, 2006 - 08:39 am
Bubble, I have known a woman who searched for ber biological mother for 10 years and when she was allowed to contact her mother by the adoptive agency who had the records, her mother had just died. But at least she could contact her other relatives. This lady in post # 103 thinks she has no brothers or sisters, but she might have, who knows, but she feels that without a link to her past she feels deprived.

Scrawler
March 1, 2006 - 10:14 am
Darwin suggests: "All that we can do, is to keep steadily in mind that each organic being is striving to increase in geometrical ratio..."

I never thought about the struggle of existence could be liken to a geometrical ratio, but when you put it in terms in which Darwin suggests, I can see where although organic beings might struggle for life and that they suffer it is all part of a bigger picture.

Than he goes on to say that when we reflect on this "struggle" we should believe that no fear is felt -- that death is generally prompt -- and that the healthy and the happy survive and multiply. In many ways this seems comforting to me. As I understand it than death and the struggle for existence is all part of the geometrical ratio of nature.

Bubble
March 1, 2006 - 12:08 pm
about earliest growing of maize-corn

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060301/sc_nm/science_maize_dc

georgehd
March 1, 2006 - 03:51 pm
Darwin says: "All that we can do, is to keep steadily in mind that each organic being is striving to increase in a geometrical ratio. Each at some period of its life, during some season of the year, during each generation or at intervals, has to struggle for life and to suffer great destruction. "When we reflect on this struggle, we may console ourselves with the full belief, that the war of nature is not incessant -- that no fear is felt -- that death is generally prompt -- and that the vigorous, the healthy, and the happy survive and multiply"

I find this a little anthropomorphic. I do not believe that each being is striving to increase at a geometrical rate. I think that living things just do what comes naturally. There is no striving involved. I also do not agree that death is generally prompt; from what evidence does Darwin come to this conclusion?

Do only the vigorous, the healthy, and the happy survive and multiply. Look at mankind where we find the greatest population growth in the poorest, probably the least happy areas of the earth.

I also think that using the word "war" in describing Natural Selection is incorrect. The Bird Flu virus is not at war with birds or mankind; but it could destroy both populations. The virus is just doing what comes naturally - reproducing.

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 1, 2006 - 04:46 pm
George, thanks for putting this succinctly. Throughout this text I have similar thoughts but I question my own ability to express them as well as you do.

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2006 - 06:38 pm
George:-You say that "there is no striving involved."

It depends upon the definition of the word "strive." Isn't the blade of grass that pushes up through the concrete sidewalk "striving" even though there may be no conscious awareness that it is doing so? It is fighting against all obstacles.

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2006 - 06:46 pm
Further comments before we begin Chapter Four?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 2, 2006 - 04:42 am
Natural Selection: Or the Survival of the Fittest

robert b. iadeluca
March 2, 2006 - 05:09 am
"How will the struggle for existence, briefly discussed in the last chapter, act in regard to variation?

"Can the principle of selection, which we have seen is so potent in the hands of man, apply under nature? I think we shall see that it can act most efficiently.

"Let the endless number of slight variations and individual differences occurring in our domestic productions -- and, in a lesser degree, in those under nature -- be borne in mind -- as well as the strength of the hereditary tendency.

"Under domestication, it may be truly said that the whole organisation becomes in some degree plastic.

"But the variability, which we almost universally meet with in our domestic productions, is not directly produced, as Hooker and Asa Gray have well remarked, by man. He can neither originate varieties, nor prevent their occurrence. He can preserve and accumulate such as do occur.

"Unintentionally he exposes organic beings to new and changing conditions of life, and variability ensues. But similar changes of conditions might and do occur under nature.

"Let it also be borne in mind how infinitely complex and close-fitting are the mutual relations of all organic beings to each other and to their physical conditions of life -- and consequently what infinitely varied diversities of structure might be of use to each being under changing conditions of life.

"Can it, then, be thought improbable -- seeing that variations useful to man have undoubtedly occurred -- that other variations useful in some way to each being in the great and complex battle of life, should occur in the course of many successive generations?

"If such do occur, can we doubt (remembering that many more individuals are born than can possibly survive) that individuals having any advantage, however slight, over others, would have the best chance of surviving and of procreating their kind?

"On the other hand, we may feel sure that any variation in the least degree injurious would be rigidly destroyed.

"This preservation of favourable individual differences and variations, and the destruction of those which are injurious, I have called Natural Selection, or the Survival of the Fittest.

"Variations neither useful nor injurious would not be affected by natural selection, and would be left either a fluctuating element -- as perhaps we see in certain polymorphic species -- or would ultimately become fixed, owing to the nature of the organism and the nature of the conditions."

Now we come to the term known and repeated often by the general populace without their knowing what it truly means -- Survival of the Fittest.

Let me see if I understand what Darwin is saying. We must first remember, he says, what we have learned about the "struggle for existence."

Having done that, he says, let us keep in mind what we learned in earlier chapters about Man being able to select particular traits in plants and animals. In these selections by Man there are endless number of variations and individual differences. This also happens, he says, under Nature. He calls the whole organization "plastic." I'm not quite sure what he means by that.

What ever power Man may have, he emphasizes, Man can not originate varieties or prevent their occurrence. He can only take what Nature gives him and preserve and accummulate these. Without realizing what he is doing, he can expose these organisms to new environments and then variability occurs. Nature also does this, Darwin says.

He speaks of the relationships between all organic beings, calling these relationships "infinitely complex and close fitting." He speaks of the changing environments and their effect on the organisms.

Darwin then theorizes -- if Man can produce organisms which it deems "useful," can not Nature also do the same thing over a long number of generations?

Because (he spoke of this earlier and quoted Malthus) more individuals are born than can survive, then those individuals with any sort of advantage, no matter how slight, have the best chance of surviving and procreating. Those without such advantages would die.

He calls this procedure "Natural Selection" or "Survival of the Fittest."

How do you folks understand what Darwin is telling us here?

Robby

georgehd
March 2, 2006 - 06:27 am
Striving to me implies a conscious effort. Does the blade of grass make an effort to grow? Not in my opinion. A baby does not make an effort to grow into an adult. It happens without any conscious thought on the part of the baby.

Others may disagree, but I feel that Darwin's thoughts at the end of the last chapter may have led to missinterpretation of Darwinism. We may at some point discuss social Darwinism and other offshoots of his theory of Natural Selection.

Assuming that all members of this group are intelligent, well meaning and happy people - should we not band together and try to produce more offspring, many more offspring, so that the earth would be inhabited by people more like ourselves? We should strive to achieve success in a biological evolutionary manner - i.e. we should leave more offspring. I appoint Robbie as leader of this Grand Endeavor!

Now I will read the last quote from Darwin and get on with the next chapter.

Scrawler
March 2, 2006 - 12:10 pm
Wouldn't the word "plastic" be used like he used the word "mold" in previous sections? I take it to mean to be able to bend into a specific shape.

In a word George No! I'm done with re-populating anything at my age.

georgehd
March 2, 2006 - 01:45 pm
There is a very interesting example of survival of the fittest (natural selection) that occurred in England and involved light colored and dark colored moths. The light colored moths survived well in pre industrial England because their color allowed them to be well camoflaged when they rested on the bark of trees that were close to the same color. With industrialization, soot collected on the tree trunks and the light colored moths became more conspicuous, whereas the dark moths were hidden from predators. Here is a web site that discusses this.

There are some terms in the article that we have not discussed but i believe that you will get the drift of "natural selection" in action. Note that in this case, we are looking at one species with two varieties.

http://mhsymp.com/?p=65

robert b. iadeluca
March 2, 2006 - 05:41 pm
Futher comments about Darwin's remarks in Post 115?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 3, 2006 - 05:24 am
"Several writers have misapprehended or objected to the term Natural Selection. Some have even imagined that natural selection induces variability, whereas it implies only the preservation of such variations as arise and are beneficial to the being under its conditions of life.

"No one objects to agriculturists speaking of the potent effects of man's selection. In this case the individual differences given by nature, which man for some object selects, must of necessity first occur.

"Others have objected that the term selection implies conscious choice in the animals which become modified. It has even been urged that, as plants have no volition, natural selection is not applicable to them!

"In the literal sense of the word, no doubt, natural selection is a false term. But who ever objected to chemists speaking of the elective affinities of the various elements? Yet an acid cannot strictly be said to elect the base with which it in preference combines.

"It has been said that I speak of natural selection as an active power or Deity. But who objects to an author speaking of the attraction of gravity as ruling the movements of the planets?

"Every one knows what is meant and is implied by such metaphorical expressions -- and they are almost necessary for brevity.

"So again it is difficult to avoid personifying the word Nature. I mean by Nature, only the aggregate action and product of many natural laws -- and by laws the sequence of events as ascertained by us.

"With a little familiarity such superficial objections will be forgotten."

Darwin asks us here not to be too literal. He says we know exactly what he is talking about. He is speaking metaphorically. He knows that plants don't consciously "select." He knows there is no such person as Nature.

So perhaps in the sense that Darwin speaks, blades of grass do "strive" to push up through the cement.

Robby

Scrawler
March 3, 2006 - 10:06 am
"...I mean by Nature, only the aggregate action and product of many natural laws -- and by laws the sequence of events as ascertained by us."

What is meant by the "aggregate action and product of many natural laws"?

robert b. iadeluca
March 4, 2006 - 05:13 am
To me "aggregate action" means all the biological, chemical, physical laws taking place.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 4, 2006 - 05:37 am
"We shall best understand the probable course of natural selection by taking the case of a country undergoing some slight physical change, for instance, of climate.

"The proportional numbers of its inhabitants will almost immediately undergo a change, and some species will probably become extinct.

"We may conclude, from what we have seen of the intimate and complex manner in which the inhabitants of each country are bound together, that any change in the numerical proportions of the inhabitants, independently of the change of climate itself, would seriously affect the others.

"If the country were open on its borders, new forms would certainly immigrate, and this would likewise seriously disturb the relations of some of the former inhabitants.

"Let it be remembered how powerful the influence of a single introduced tree or mammal has been shown to be.

"In the case of an island, or of a country partly surrounded by barriers, into which new and better adapted forms could not freely enter, we should then have places in the economy of nature which would assuredly be better filled up, if some of the original inhabitants were in some manner modified.

"Had the area been open to immigration, these same places would have been seized on by intruders. In such cases, slight modifications -- which in any way favoured the individuals of any species, by better adapting them to their altered conditions -- would tend to be preserved. Natural selection would have free scope for the work of improvement."

Darwin here is trying to explain to us how "natural selection" works. He gives as an example a country in which the climate becomes hotter or colder. This, he says, would affect the plants. Those plants which could adapt (Plant A)would then have a proportional higher population than those (Plant which had trouble adapting. Some species would die.

Because, he says, there would now be many more "A" plants than "B" plants, this would affect the relationship between "A" and "B".

Because there are now many less "B" plants, the seeds from alien plants (Plant C) might enter the nation and find it easier to propagate. The presence of plant C - the newcomer - would now affect the A-B relationship.

Darwin asks us to remember from previous chapters how strong is the influence of one single plant or animal entering the area. If, however, there is some sort of barrier wherein an alien plant or animal cannot enter, then because the climate had caused the decrease of Plant B, native plants would have filled the gap.

What are your thoughts, folks? Am I going in the right direction? As I write this, I am thinking of the National Forests in the West where wolves and bisons are being brought back or being affected in one way or another by Man.

I don't know what I hit to make that face come up. I never did that before.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 4, 2006 - 07:40 am
Speaking of bison and climate, click on to THIS.

Robby

winsum
March 4, 2006 - 07:50 am

Scrawler
March 4, 2006 - 11:14 am
In the Pacific Northwest, a news cast the other evening indicated that there are so few salmon running this year that many of the fisherman are going elsewhere to other states to fish and many of our rivers will be close this season for fishing. This will certainly have a domino affect on all of us here. I was suprised to hear that it was not global warming that was at fault, but rather "sea lions" who are protected under the endangered species act. The fish and game department have tried everything to get the seals to leave so the salmon fish will come back, but I guess even seals know a good thing when they see it.

robert b. iadeluca
March 5, 2006 - 06:02 am
:We have good reason to believe, as shown in the first chapter, that changes in the conditions of life give a tendency to increased variability.

"In the foregoing cases the conditions have changed, and this would manifestly be favourable to natural selection, by affording a better chance of the occurrence of profitable variations.

"Unless such occur, natural selection can do nothing. Under the term of "variations," it must never be forgotten that mere individual differences are included.

"As man can produce a great result with his domestic animals and plants by adding up in any given direction individual differences, so could natural selection, but far more easily from having incomparably longer time for action.

"Nor do I believe that any great physical change, as of climate, or any unusual degree of isolation to check immigration, is necessary in order that new and unoccupied places should be left, for natural selection to fill up by improving some of the varying inhabitants. As all the inhabitants of each country are struggling together with nicely balanced forces, extremely slight modifications in the structure or habits of one species would often give it an advantage over others.

"Still further modifications of the same kind would often still further increase the advantage, as long as the species continued under the same conditions of life and profited by similar means of subsistence and defence.

"No country can be named in which all the native inhabitants are now so perfectly adapted to each other and to the physical conditions under which they live, that none of them could be still better adapted or improved. In all countries, the natives have been so far conquered by naturalised productions, that they have allowed some foreigners to take firm possession of the land. And as foreigners have thus in every country beaten some of the natives, we may safely conclude that the natives might have been modified with advantage, so as to have better resisted the intruders."

Keep in mind, folks, that I am not an expert on this subject. I am only passing along to you what I am understanding Darwin to be saying. I could be wrong. Throw your thoughts in here. A Discussion Leader can only facilitate if there is a group to "lead."

To begin with, Darwin reminds us that in Chapter One he told us that if the environment (climate for example, or the presence of sea lions) changes, then there is increased vaiability in the native species. The changes might be beneficial or harmful. In Scrawler's case, the change was harmful to the salmon in terms of their numbers.

Darwin makes a comparison. He says that Man can make changes in his livestock or plants in the direction in which he wants them to go. Natural Selection can do the same but it takes a much longer time (centuries? eons?) for this to happen.

He doesn't believe that any great physical change (climate for example) is necessary for Nature to "improve" the wild animals or plants. He reminds us that all the inhabitants are constantly "struggling" for life with each other. Any change to the nicely balance force could give an advantage or disadvantage to any of the species or individual variations.

Darwin can not think of a single country where any animal or plant could not be improved. He says that in all countries the local plants (he calls them natives) have allowed strange plants (he calls them foreigners) to take possession of the land. And because these foreigners have "beaten" some of the natives, the natives might have been changed to the point where they were able to resist the foreigners.

I think of that advertisement decades ago about the "hunk" who takes the girl away from the "90 pound weakling." The presence of this hunk causes the weakling to follow the advice of Charles Atlas, he builds up his muscles, and gets the girl back.

Tell me, people, do I have this correct? And "hellos" by lurkers are always welcome.

Robby

georgehd
March 5, 2006 - 06:17 am
Robbie, I know that you must feel that we are not really having a discussion. We have reached that point in the book where I sense that we have the major tenets underlying Darwin's proposal. I do not know where we are in the book; I will try to figure that out so that I have some understanding of where he is going.

Your explanations and understandings are sound and I feel no need to add further comment. If I do not agree (as on occasion in the past) I will pipe up.

I have now looked at the book and see that we are less than 20% through the book; some of the chapters ahead seem more complex than those we have read. Darwin is very wordy and difficult to follow which makes this discussion very worthwhile but at the same time tedious (for me). I agree with Robbie that all of us need to check in at least once a week to be sure that we actually have group participation.

robert b. iadeluca
March 5, 2006 - 08:04 am
We opened this discussion because the topic of Evolution was constantly in the news. Unfortunately the discussions in the media almost always had a religious slant.

Over 20 people in Senior Net indicated they wanted to hold a discussion like ours because they wanted to go to the source -- that is, learn what Darwin had actually said, not what some people said that others had said that their friends had said that the media said. The approach taken by the media and by many people across the nation is more titillating, more emotional, and more fun to discuss than Darwin's logical approach.

But here we are. I, for one, want to be able to say a month or so from now that I know what Darwin was really saying -- what he meant by natural selection and survival of the fittest. Right now we are discussing plants and animals but all of us know in the back of our minds that when he uses the term "organisms," that humans are organisms -- that his principles may apply to us.

I realize that we may have lost some of the 20+ people originally interested but I don't know how many.

I want to also thank those of you here for refraining from making remarks that have a religious slant. This has helped us to look at the topic with unbiased eyes.

Be assured that I will continue as long as a significant number of you want me to.

Robby

georgehd
March 5, 2006 - 08:21 am
Darwin wisely avoided a discussion of human evolution in the work we are now reading. The Origin of Species was controversial enough and he must have realized that if man became part of his argument, the book would have been attacked bitterly. And he did not possess the fossil evidence that is crucial to understanding human evolution.

His next publication the Decent of Man was published in 1871, twelve years after Origin and after a number of revisions of the earlier work.

I realize that we are trying to understand Darwin in the original but I do want to call the groups attention to an excellent web site that explores the theory of evolution in a very understandable way. It is cheating to look ahead, but, for some, it may be useful.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

Bubble
March 5, 2006 - 09:15 am
And because these foreigners have "beaten" some of the natives, the natives might have been changed to the point where they were able to resist the foreigners.

This is not always true... In Australia, a new kind of frogs was introduced to fight some insects (I think) that were brought by mistake and were a real pest. Those frogs multiplied so much that the local forgs cannot compete any more and are being wiped off.

But it is obvious that man can bring about some changes in variety much faster than would happen naturally and the changed organisms would get implnted better because of favored treatment or conditions.

robert b. iadeluca
March 5, 2006 - 09:28 am
I wonder why the local frogs were not strong enough originally to "push out" the strangers -- or why they they were not able to increase their own internal strength. I wonder, too, if the two types of frogs were able to mate. Were they of the same species?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 5, 2006 - 09:32 am
I don't know if this FROG SPECIES LIST helps or complicates my question.

Robby

Scrawler
March 5, 2006 - 10:28 am
Perhaps the two different types of frogs did not mate, was because "man" introduced one type for a specific reason. Since it was to kill the unwanted insects it may have been bigger than the native frogs. I'm only guessing here, not knowing specifics about these frogs. I know here in the United States certain species of frogs are dying off, but the scientists are not sure of the reason.

Bubble
March 5, 2006 - 10:40 am
yes, the new frogs were huge. I have tried to find where I read that but to no avail. Here are some of the native frogs in Australia

http://www.milamba.com/australia/inhabit/frogs/frogs.htm

So many frogs on that site Robby! I particularly liked the song of the tree frogs at the end.

Malryn
March 5, 2006 - 03:44 pm

What about Kudzu? On this page you'll see pictures of an entire cottage covered with it.

robert b. iadeluca
March 5, 2006 - 06:15 pm
I would say, Mal, that this is exactly what Darwin is talking about.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 5, 2006 - 07:28 pm
"As man can produce, and certainly has produced, a great result by his methodical and unconscious means of selection, what may not natural selection effect?

"Man can act only on external and visible characters: Nature, if I may be allowed to personify the natural preservation or survival of the fittest, cares nothing for appearances, except in so far as they are useful to any being.

"She can act on every internal organ, on every shade of constitutional difference, on the whole machinery of life.

"Man selects only for his own good -- nature only for that of the being which she tends. Every selected character is fully exercised by her, as is implied by the fact of their selection.

"Man keeps the natives of many climates in the same country.

"He seldom exercises each selected character in some peculiar and fitting manner. He feeds a long and a short beaked pigeon on the same food. He does not exercise a long-backed or long-legged quadruped in any peculiar manner. He exposes sheep with long and short wool to the same climate.

"He does not allow the most vigorous males to struggle for the females.

"He does not rigidly destroy all inferior animals, but protects during each varying season -- as far as lies in his power -- all his productions.

"He often begins his selection by some half-monstrous form -- or at least by some modification prominent enough to catch the eye or to be plainly useful to him.

"Under nature, the slightest differences of structure or constitution may well turn the nicely balanced scale in the struggle for life, and so be preserved.

"How fleeting are the wishes and efforts of man! how short his time! and consequently how poor will be his results, compared with those accumulated by Nature during whole geological periods!

"Can we wonder, then, that Nature's productions should be far "truer" in character than man's productions -- that they should be infinitely better adapted to the most complex conditions of life -- and should plainly bear the stamp of far higher workmanship?"

Come on, folks. Help me out here. This is what I understand Darwin is saying.

Man is methodical in breeding his animals and plants in working toward what he wants. However, he is making these changes not realizing that he is gradually changing future generations. Darwin calls that "unconscious selection." Darwin personifies Nature and says that "she" does the same thing except that Man works only on what he sees, i.e. the external appearances of the organisms. Nature only cares for what is useful to that particular being, external appearances being unimportant.

"She" acts on every single aspect of the organism, seen or unseen.

Man changes the organisms he is breeding for HIS benefit. Nature changes the organisms for THEIR own benefit.

Man tends to keep the animals or plants he is breeding in the same area. Therefore the climate remains primarily the same and he feeds them with the same food. He does not allow the male and female animals to follow their usual wild tendencies. He protects what he has bred, not allowing them to die as they might in the wild.

Man does this within his lifetime or in a period of years or generations. Nature is not rushing but has thousands, if not millions, of years to cause "her" changes. Because Nature takes a much longer period of time to make these changes, the changes are of a better quality. Nature has time to perfect what is best for the organism.

Your thoughts, please?

Robby

winsum
March 5, 2006 - 10:24 pm
I've been reading it, at least the intro and the first few chapters and I think I know what his premiss is including his idea of what humans basic drive must be. . .it's interesting if I don't try to do the whole thing. He has t be pedantic and include plants as well as other life forms because he's a scientist talking to other scientists and he's making a point for them. But his style is easy and interesting. I'm here for a bit as long as we do let the religious aspects alone. . . .claire

winsum
March 5, 2006 - 10:43 pm
In watching the Pete's Pond site and reading about the neigboring area it suggests that the common house cat is interbreeding with some of the wildcat species and creating hybrids. I forget which it was bob cat or lynx, but one of them, I think the latter, is in danger of becoming endangered as a species because of it.

Bubble
March 6, 2006 - 01:21 am
Here is a ill-inspired change introduced by man. I have seen it in Congo where the plant was introduced to try and control mosquito growth (because of malaria). The plant covered rivers and lakes and all the fish started dying from lack of oxygen. Boats and ships were rendered unoperative with the stems blocking their engines.

http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/hyacin2.html http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/hyacin.html

robert b. iadeluca
March 6, 2006 - 06:19 am
"It may metaphorically be said that natural selection is daily and hourly scrutinising, throughout the world, the slightest variations -- rejecting those that are bad, preserving and adding up all that are good -- silently and insensibly working, whenever and wherever opportunity offers, at the improvement of each organic being in relation to its organic and inorganic conditions of life.

"We see nothing of these slow changes in progress, until the hand of time has marked the lapse of ages, and then so imperfect is our view into long-past geological ages, that we see only that the forms of life are now different from what they formerly were.

"In order that any great amount of modification should be effected in a species, a variety when once formed must again -- perhaps after a long interval of time -- vary or present individual differences of the same favourable nature as before.

"These must be again preserved, and so onwards step by step. Seeing that individual differences of the same kind perpetually recur, this can hardly be considered as an unwarrantable assumption.

"But whether it is true, we can judge only by seeing how far the hypothesis accords with and explains the general phenomena of nature.

"On the other hand, the ordinary belief that the amount of possible variation is a strictly limited quantity is likewise a simple assumption."

Let us keep in mind that Darwin admits he is speaking metaphorically. He tells us of Nature's "hand." He says that Nature is on the job every day, every hour, every minute -- examining every single organsim in detail of whatever type throughout the entire world -- rejecting those that are not useful to the organism itself, and strengthening those that are beneficial

Because Nature lives longer than we do and makes these changes over eons of time, we in the small length of our lives do not notice these changes. We perhaps notice some big changes but not the very small changes between them.

If I understand correctly what Darwin then says, he tells us that when a favorable change occurs in an organism, that favorable change must re-occur again and again so as to be a new "permanent" part of the organism.

Robby

Scrawler
March 6, 2006 - 09:49 am
"Man selects only for his own good - nature only for that of the being which she tends..."

I believe that there is harmony and balance in Nature. If left unchecked by man, the survial of the fittest for their own benefit will gradually prevail. Perhaps this is a lesson for man [in general] to devlop within their own species harmony and balance before they go about changing what Nature has done for centuries.

winsum
March 6, 2006 - 10:02 am
we now count the members of a given species and declare it endangered if not meeting with certain arbritary limits. We endeavor to save a species not in terms of it's natural or even manmade usefulness but simply because it IS. So the lynx is endangered now because of the influx of house cat dna. . .and we're not concerned whether the outcome is beneficial. that is not the point. Here is where natural selection is no longer the rule. We have exerted our influence over her, which is one of the aspects of humans that was mentioned by Darwin. We take over a territory and adjust it to our specifications. Poor nature. We make things happen much faster than she intended.

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 6, 2006 - 03:04 pm
Right Winsom, man will select a species for it's own benefit and that is where the imbalance starts, human species have become more powerful than other species and want to accelerate nature's process, but at what cost.

Humans have superior intelligence than other species. It selects species that will benefit it's lifestyle or it's pocketbook in a more aggressive way, it doesn't matter WHY it selects, it just does. Then I would presume that its ability to steer other species less endowed to serve them is detrimental to perhaps all other species.

Why would food plants be modified if it is not for profit? How will that affect the DNA of our descendents? we don't know yet, but I have a feeling it will and in the end the human specie will be altered, not in this generation, but in future ones.

Nature has its own way of rectifying the interference of humans in it affairs, for instance the mad cow disease. Cows were fed with bones from dead animals and it developed a disease that humans could not stop from spreading.

Elephants tusks are being cut off because ivory is so valuable, thus endangering their very existence, yet it continues despite warnings that elephants will become extinct.

What humans are doing, all species do it it seems, they interact with other species to enhance their own existence. Is that why we fight and go to war?

robert b. iadeluca
March 6, 2006 - 06:07 pm
Eloise asks:--"What humans are doing, all species do it it seems, they interact with other species to enhance their own existence. Is that why we fight and go to war?"

That is a profound question. We berate ourselves for using our "intelligence" to change the world for our benefit. But if wolves do what is best for wolves, lions do what is best for lions, wasps do what is best for wasps,and oak trees do what is best for oak trees, then aren't we doing what Nature has decreed we should do?

Perhaps there is no such thing as good or bad -- that Nature has no moral code.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 6, 2006 - 06:19 pm
"Although natural selection can act only through and for the good of each being, yet characters and structures -- which we are apt to consider as of very trifling importance -- may thus be acted on.

"When we see leaf-eating insects green -- and bark-feeders mottled-grey -- the alpine ptarmigan white in winter -- the red grouse the colour of heather -- we must believe that these tints are of service to these birds and insects in preserving them from danger.

"Grouse, if not destroyed at some period of their lives, would increase in countless numbers. They are known to suffer largely from birds of prey. Hawks are guided by eyesight to their prey- so much so, that on parts of the Continent persons are warned not to keep white pigeons, as being the most liable to destruction.

"Hence natural selection might be effective in giving the proper colour to each kind of grouse, and in keeping that colour, when once acquired, true and constant.

"Nor ought we to think that the occasional destruction of an animal of any particular colour would produce little effect. We should remember how essential it is in a flock of white sheep to destroy a lamb with the faintest trace of black.

"We have seen how the colour of the hogs, which feed on the "paint-root" in Virginia, determines whether they shall live or die.

"In plants, the down on the fruit and the colour of the flesh are considered by botanists as characters of the most trifling importance. Yet we hear from an excellent horticulturist, Downing, that in the United States, smooth-skinned fruits suffer far more from a beetle, a Curculio, than those with down -- that purple plums suffer far more from a certain disease than yellow plums -- whereas another disease attacks yellow-fleshed peaches far more than those with other coloured flesh.

"If, with all the aids of art, these slight differences make a great difference in cultivating the several varieties, assuredly, in a state of nature -- where the trees would have to struggle with other trees, and with a host of enemies -- such differences would effectually settle which variety, whether a smooth or downy, a yellow or purple fleshed fruit, should succeed."

I believe this paragraph speaks for itself.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 7, 2006 - 03:24 am
"In looking at many small points of difference between species, which, as far as our ignorance permits us to judge, seem quite unimportant, we must not forget that climate, food, &c., have no doubt produced some direct effect.

"It is also necessary to bear in mind that, owing to the law of correlation, when one part varies, and the variations are accumulated through natural selection, other modifications, often of the most unexpected nature, will ensue."

This must have driven early breeders crazy. They bred for color, for instance, and the offspring had the color they wanted but also an unwanted physical defect.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 7, 2006 - 03:47 am
I am asking that we continue moving along with the thinking of Darwin and not allow ourselves to move heavily into the subject of genes, as Darwin did not know of any such thing. However this article about NATURAL SELECTION in this morning's NY Times is fascinating and relates in many ways to what Darwin has been telling us.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 7, 2006 - 03:59 am
Should one species (Man) be allowed to control the population of another species (wolves)? Does Nature, in its process of NATURAL SELECTION care whether one species is "endangered" or not?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 7, 2006 - 04:32 am
Is Attention Deficit Disorder an EVOLUTIONARY ADVANTAGE?

Robby

georgehd
March 7, 2006 - 08:31 am
Robbie, I do not agree with your post 146 because it implies control on the part of the organism. First let's remove man from consideration because man complicates the picture.

Wolves, lions, bacteria, oak trees, etc etc, exist; they are alive as individuals. Each individual has characteristics which are inherited. the organism has no control over this process. However, over long periods of time, some characteristics prove more beneficial than others. What do I mean by beneficial? Organisms with the beneficial characteristic leave more offspring than those without the characteristic. This is what Darwin means by Natural Selection.

There is no right or wrong, no good or evil. Nature has no human attributes. I am afraid that if we say that "nature has no moral code", we may be getting into a religious discussion of what we mean by "Nature" or "God". I would hope that we avoid this as it did not play a part in Darwin's thinking.

When we add human beings to the mix, we are faced with a far more complicated problem and a significant modification of Darwinian evolution. Man can think. Man can exercise control over breeding. Man can make selections of various characteristics. Man has caused enormous changes in the evolution of living things and in the evolution of the earth. At the moment, man has caused the extinction of numerous species - he has caused the reserection of some species that were almost extinct - he has caused climatic changes the effects of which could be destructive to many species, including man.

I hope that this post is understandable because I believe that we need to understand the difference between Darwin's theory, which does not involve man, and evolution caused by man's selection of creatures that benefit man.

Phoenixaq
March 7, 2006 - 09:33 am
George, your point is well taken, but what if we consider the following: We are on another planet acting strictly as observers of life on earth, about which we have no prior knowledge. So we see wolves being wolves and trees being trees and humans being humans. Why wouldn't all of it seem like everything was just being itself? Would we even impute some special kind of "intelligence" to that life form we may have named "humans"?

JudytheKay
March 7, 2006 - 10:48 am
Noted that today is the birthday of Luther Burbank and I quote from the article I just read: "Burbank read many works on botany by the British naturalist Charles R. Darwin and was influenced by Darwin's views on the evolution of plants.. . . . .Burbank cannot be considered a scientist in the academic sense. He left few records and his crossings were frequently made with mixed pollens rather than pure pollens. However, Burbank instinctively understood correct plant-breeding procedures. He made extensive crossings, grew thousands of seedlings, and continued to intercross the best seedlings to produce the most desirable hybrids. Although Burbank had no direct impact on genetics or plant breeding, his accomplishments were examples of evolution in action." Judy

robert b. iadeluca
March 7, 2006 - 06:08 pm
George:-I believe that Darwin's theory does involve Man, although he never mentions that word, at least in this book. He says "organisms" and we are an organism susceptible to Nature's laws.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 8, 2006 - 03:36 am
"As we see that those variations which, under domestication, appear at any particular period of life, tend to reappear in the offspring at the same period -- for instance, in the shape, size, and flavour of the seeds of the many varieties of our culinary and agricultural plants -- in the caterpillar and cocoon stages of the varieties of the silk-worm -- in the eggs of poultry, and in the colour of the down of their chickens -- in the horns of our sheep and cattle when nearly adult -- so in a state of nature natural selection will be enabled to act on and modify organic beings at any age, by the accumulation of variations profitable at that age, and by their inheritance at a corresponding age.

"If it profit a plant to have its seeds more and more widely disseminated by the wind, I can see no greater difficulty in this being effected through natural selection, than in the cotton-planter increasing and improving by selection the down in the pods on his cotton-trees.

"Natural selection may modify and adapt the larva of an insect to a score of contingencies, wholly different from those which concern the mature insect. These modifications may affect, through correlation, the structure of the adult.

"So, conversely, modifications in the adult may affect the structure of the larva. In all cases natural selection will ensure that they shall not be injurious: for if they were so, the species would become extinct."

Please work along with me on this, folks. Here is what I am understanding.

Breeders have found that variations in their animals and plants occur at certain times of the organism's life. These variations, he says, seem to appear in the offspring at the very same time of life.

He asks us to look at various examples he gives us -- the silkworm caterpillar and cocoon stages -- the stage when the color of the down of chicks changes -- the period during adulthood when the horns of sheep and cattle grow.

Nature accumulates the variations which are beneficial to the organism and causes the offspring to have the same benefits, also at the same period in the offspring's life as the parent's was.

When Nature sees that the plant benefits by having its seeds distributed by the wind, then Nature increases and improves the amount of down on the pods -- acting, if you will, as a breeder would.

Whatever changes Nature makes or modifies, it always does this in a manner to improve the organism. If it did not do so, the species, in its battle against other organisms, would die.

And yes, I know I am speaking metaphorically of Nature just as Darwin does.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 8, 2006 - 04:15 am
Does Nature constantly create NEW SPECIES?

Robby

Malryn
March 8, 2006 - 05:57 am

ROBBY, of course nature does not have a "moral code." It does not have many of the things attributed to it here in this discussion and elsewhere.

Nature has been anthropomorphized by humans for millennia. In my opinion, this discussion was on the right track when we tried to observe and think like a scientist like Darwin and others did and do. Scientists do not anthropomorphize nature. Nature is not an entity named Mother Nature, after all. We've grown away from worshiping craggy rocks and wildly crooked trees because they might strike us dead if we misbehave, haven't we? If we are to understand Darwin or any kind of science at all, it is necessary to acquire and maintain some scientific objectivity. (Even if those who follow what is called Intelligent Design say there is no such thing.)

Mal

Mippy
March 8, 2006 - 08:12 am
Robby ~
To discuss your comment above:
Nature accumulates the variations which are beneficial to the organism and causes the offspring to have the same benefits, also at the same period in the offspring's life as the parent's was.

What you call "nature" does not accumulate only variations which are beneficial. So-called "nature" also accumulates variations which might be, eventually, disadvantageous to a species. Such variations
might not manifest themselves right away, in only a few generations.

Nor is Darwin's supposition that variations occur in the "same period" a widely accepted fact, IMO. But once again, he was making an educated guess at what was going on, since it would be decades before anyone
would begin to understand that genes are expressed at different times in the life of any organism.

Here's a link to the term gene expression:
gene expression

p.s. I was away for a long weekend, but will be trying to participate again.

georgehd
March 8, 2006 - 09:53 am
My point, Robbie, was that Darwin did NOT include man in the work we are reading. There is no mention of humans because, IMO, Darwin did not want to open the door to a religious discussion of his theory. Darwin does deal with Man in his next book which was published sometime later. The Decent of Man.

I agree that today, we think of man as an organism and therefore subject to the laws of natural selection. But in Darwin's time, man was considered unique and apart from other organisms. When Darwin wrote "Origin", he was not prepared to deal with human evolution.

I agree with Mal in her post 158.

Scrawler
March 8, 2006 - 11:47 am
I'm not so sure there isn't a "moral code" with regards to Nature. What makes one species survive over another? I don't think that the term "moral" can be applied to Nature, but certainly the essence of Nature must have some sort of "code". How else could it survive? If you had no codes you would have chaos. And yes, I pay homage to my trees every day.

Oh, and in case anyone was keeping score: sea-lion: 1; man: 0. With all the technology that the corps of engineers had in designing a gate to keep out the sea-lion, they're back! I can't wait for the next episode.

robert b. iadeluca
March 8, 2006 - 05:45 pm
Mal says:-"Nature has been anthropomorphized by humans for millennia. In my opinion, this discussion was on the right track when we tried to observe and think like a scientist like Darwin and others did and do. Scientists do not anthropomorphize nature. Nature is not an entity named Mother Nature."

If Darwin personifies (anthropomorphizes) Nature as he did in a previous paragraph (see below), then I am in good company. As he indicates, sometimes that makes it just a bit easier to understand even though we know deep within us that there is no Mother Nature. As he said:-"Let's forget such superficial objections."

Darwin said the following:-

"Others have objected that the term selection implies conscious choice in the animals which become modified. It has even been urged that, as plants have no volition, natural selection is not applicable to them!

"In the literal sense of the word, no doubt, natural selection is a false term. But who ever objected to chemists speaking of the elective affinities of the various elements? Yet an acid cannot strictly be said to elect the base with which it in preference combines.

"It has been said that I speak of natural selection as an active power or Deity. But who objects to an author speaking of the attraction of gravity as ruling the movements of the planets?

"Every one knows what is meant and is implied by such metaphorical expressions -- and they are almost necessary for brevity.

"So again it is difficult to avoid personifying the word Nature. I mean by Nature, only the aggregate action and product of many natural laws -- and by laws the sequence of events as ascertained by us.

"With a little familiarity such superficial objections will be forgotten."

robert b. iadeluca
March 8, 2006 - 05:55 pm
"Natural selection will modify the structure of the young in relation to the parent, and of the parent in relation to the young.

"In social animals it will adapt the structure of each individual for the benefit of the whole community, if the community profits by the selected change.

"What natural selection cannot do, is to modify the structure of one species, without giving it any advantage, for the good Of another species. Though statements to this effect may be found in works of natural history, I cannot find one case which will bear investigation.

"A structure used only once in an animal's life, if of high importance to it, might be modified to any extent by natural selection. For instance, the great jaws possessed by certain insects, used exclusively for opening the cocoon- or the hard tip to the beak of unhatched birds, used for breaking the egg.

"It has been asserted, that of the best short-beaked tumbler-pigeons a greater number perish in the egg than are able to get out of it so that fanciers assist in the act of hatching.

"Now if nature had to make the beak of a full-grown pigeon very short for the bird's own advantage, the process of modification would be very slow. There would be simultaneously the most rigorous selection of all the young birds within the egg, which had the most powerful and hardest beaks, for all with weak beaks would inevitably perish. More delicate and more easily broken shells might be selected, the thickness of the shell being known to vary like every other structure."

I'm having trouble. Can you people help me with understanding this?

Robby

Malryn
March 9, 2006 - 07:38 am

It's very hard for most human beings to think in the abstract. Darwin knew this when he wrote this book. I think we were very lucky early on in this discussion to meet and read the words of somebody who could.

Mal

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 9, 2006 - 09:06 am
We live in an age, especially in the West where most human offsprings are born healthy and survive the most crucial years right after birth to become full grown adult and furthermore live to a ripe old age.

That is not so with other organism where the selection is unforgiving. If one is weak and frail, one just dies or is aborted. With intelligence, humans have far outgrown, outlived, outclassed all other organism until they feel that they are entitled to determine what plant, what animal, what mineral best benefits them ignoring even the most scientific warnings that it is going to far.

"In social animals it will adapt the structure of each individual for the benefit of the whole community, if the community profits by the selected change.

With humans organism changing the very nature of other species, which would have normally taken a much longer time if left to themselves to decide what, when and how to change it, are they not aware that lesser species will eventually retaliate?

Nature is its own master and humans better be aware of its power.

robert b. iadeluca
March 9, 2006 - 04:50 pm
We have some pretty logical people in this group, Mal, and I believe we can think it through.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 9, 2006 - 05:42 pm
"It may be well here to remark that with all beings there must be much fortuitous destruction, which can have little or no influence on the course of natural selection.

"For instance a vast number of eggs or seeds are annually devoured, and these could be modified through natural selection only if they varied in some manner which protected them from their enemies. Yet many of these eggs or seeds would perhaps, if not destroyed, have yielded individuals better adapted to their conditions of life than any of these which happened to survive.

"So again a vast number of mature animals and plants, whether or not they be the best adapted to their conditions, must be annually destroyed by accidental causes -- which would not be in the least degree mitigated by certain changes of structure or constitution which would in other ways be beneficial to the species.

"But let the destruction of the adults be ever so heavy -- if the number which can exist in any district be not wholly kept down by such causes,- or again let the destruction of eggs or seeds be so great that only a hundredth or a thousandth part are developed -- yet of those which do survive, the best adapted individuals, supposing that there is any variability in favourable direction, will tend to propagate their kind in larger numbers than the less well adapted.

"If the numbers be wholly kept down by the causes just indicated, as will often have been the case, natural selection will be powerless in certain beneficial directions. But this is no valid objection to its efficiency at other times and in other ways. We are far from having any reason to suppose that many species ever undergo modification and improvement at the same time in the same area."

Darwin reminds us that in the course of change much life is destroyed -- e.g. life in the form of eggs and seeds -- eaten or broken. Some of these eggs or seeds might have been more fit to become adults than those which remained but we have no way of knowing as they were destroyed.

But he adds that no matter what percentage are destroyed, of those that remain the best adapted individuals will be the ones that create offspring.

So Nature is held back, so to speak, because it can only work on those organisms that survive from accidental death.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 10, 2006 - 04:54 am
Sexual Selection

robert b. iadeluca
March 10, 2006 - 05:09 am
"Inasmuch as peculiarities often appear under domestication in one sex and become hereditarily attached to that sex, so no doubt it will be under nature.

"Thus it is rendered possible for the two sexes to be modified through natural selection in relation to different habits of life, as is sometimes the case -- or for one sex to be modified in relation to the other sex, as commonly occurs.

"This leads me to say a few words on what I have called Sexual Selection. This form of selection depends, not on a struggle for existence in relation to other organic beings or to external conditions, but on a struggle between the individuals of one sex -- generally the males -- for the possession of the other sex. The result is not death to the unsuccessful competitor, but few or no offspring.

"Sexual selection is, therefore, less rigorous than natural selection.

"Generally, the most vigorous males, those which are best fitted for their places in nature, will leave most progeny. But in many cases, victory depends not so much on general vigor, as on having special weapons, confined to the male sex.

"A hornless stag or spurless cock would have a poor chance of leaving numerous offspring. Sexual selection, by always allowing the victor to breed, might surely give indomitable courage -- length to the spur -- and strength to the wing to strike in the spurred leg -- in nearly the same manner as does the brutal cockfighter by the careful selection of his best cocks.

"How low in the scale of nature the law of battle descends, I know not. Male alligators have been described as fighting, bellowing, and whirling round, like Indians in a war-dance, for the possession of the females. Male salmons have been observed fighting all day long. Male stagbeetles sometimes bear wounds from the huge mandibles of other males. The males of certain hymenopterous insects have been frequently seen by that inimitable observer M. Fabre, fighting for a particular female who sits by, an apparently unconcerned beholder of the struggle, and then retires with the conqueror.

"The war is, perhaps, severest between the males of polygamous animals, and these seem oftenest provided with special weapons.

"The males of carnivorous animals are already well armed -- though to them and to others, special means of defence may be given through means of sexual selection -- as the mane of the lion, and the hooked jaw to the male salmon.

"The shield may be as important for victory, as the sword or spear."

Darwin is easily understood in this paragraph and I look forward to numerous comments from participants here. I found especially important the last sentence indicating that good defense is as important as offense in winning the female.

And how about that phrase about "a particular female who sits by, an apparently unconcerned beholder of the struggle."

Your thoughts?

Robby

Bubble
March 10, 2006 - 05:49 am
Of course that female would want to mate with the most courageous, the strongest or the leader of the pack, so she wait to see the outcome of the fight. This would insure her progeny to have the best fighting genes.

The two sexes could have a different selective improvement. Females would not need to be that combative maybe.

Who is M. Fabre? I would have guessed he was talking of the entomologist Jean-Henri Fabre.

robert b. iadeluca
March 10, 2006 - 06:02 am
The male with the best defense -- is he the most courageous or the strongest?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 10, 2006 - 06:04 am
Is this a NEW SPECIES OR OLD SPECIES?

Robby

Bubble
March 10, 2006 - 06:05 am
The male with the best defense would be the one with both qualities: both courageous and strong.

robert b. iadeluca
March 10, 2006 - 06:11 am
Would a good defense be hiding out nearby until the "more courgeous" ones killed each other off?

Robby

Bubble
March 10, 2006 - 06:13 am
That would be the sneakiest! and yes, it does work in bands of apes.

Scrawler
March 10, 2006 - 11:02 am
"The males of certain hymenopterous insects have been frequently seen by that inimitable observer M. Fabre fighting for a particular female who sits by an apparently unconcerned beholder of the struggle, and then retires with the conqueror."

I can't help but wonder if it is natural instinct for the female to wait to retire with the conqueror or that she feels compelled to stay because if she leaves, another female might take the "best" of pack. Darwin mentions the struggle between males, but I can't help feel that the females also struggle with each other, but perhaps are not seen as much as the males.

Mippy
March 10, 2006 - 12:22 pm
One of my favorite examples of sexual selection is bird song.
There are hundreds of essays about this, many using good, quantitative methodology. I think the mocking bird is an example easy to write about.
Many of us have heard a mocking bird going on for many minutes, singing different tunes. Some are more cleaver than others. Mostly, the males are the ones who are inventing new tunes.
Modern studies have shown that female birds select the males who sing the best and most varied songs.
Thus those male birds have the most offspring.

The part I don't know is whether good singing is equal to a male who is stronger or braver or ... who can say? But the entire species might benefit from an enhancement of the genes for excellent singing, as it could enable better, more successful mating throughout the species, as females "perk up" to hear a male bird sing.
Does this make sense?

Bubble
March 10, 2006 - 12:25 pm
I am partial to male bass singing... lol Bubble

Mallylee
March 10, 2006 - 04:02 pm
I dont understand Darwin's saying that the destruction of seeds and eggs has no effect on natural selection.#167

"It may be well here to remark that with all beings there must be much fortuitous destruction, which can have little or no influence on the course of natural selection.

Surely the very engine of natural evolution is fortuitous destruction?

I would have thought that Darwin would be aware that e.g. sycamore seeds have wings so that they are blown far afield, and the more efficient these wings are, the more likely they are to become seedling trees. The less efficient the preservation mechanism is, the less likely the seed is to become a seed-producing individual mature tree.

Eggs, to take another example, are camouflaged, presumably because the less visible ancestral eggs survived to become snakes or birds. For the same reason, a change in habitat will probably result in a change in egg camouflage, if enough breeding individuals survive.

Have I misunderstood this passage?

robert b. iadeluca
March 10, 2006 - 07:11 pm

"Amongst birds, the contest is often of a more peaceful character.

"All those who have attended to the subject believe that there is the severest rivalry between the males of many species to attract, by singing, the females.

"The rock-thrush of Guiana, birds of paradise, and some others, congregate. Successive males display with the most elaborate care, and show off in the best manner, their gorgeous plumage. They likewise perform strange antics before the females, which, standing by as spectators, at last choose the most attractive partner.

"Those who have closely attended to birds in confinement well know that they often take individual preferences and dislikes. Thus Sir R. Heron has described how a pied peacock was eminently attractive to all his hen birds.

"I cannot here enter on the necessary details. But if man can in a short time give beauty and an elegant carriage to his bantams, according to his standard of beauty, I can see no good reason to doubt that female birds -- by selecting, during thousands of generations, the most melodious or beautiful males, according to their standard of beauty -- might produce a marked effect.

"Some well-known laws -- with respect to the plumage of male and female birds, in comparison with the plumage of the young -- can partly be explained through the action of sexual selection on variations occurring at different ages, and transmitted to the males alone or to both sexes at corresponding ages. I have not space here to enter on this subject."

Any way you slice it, the females hold the veto power.

Robby

JoanK
March 10, 2006 - 08:54 pm
I find particularly interesting cases where properties developed to attract mates are actually harmful to the chance of individual survival. A good example is the peacock. The hens are attracted to the male with the biggest tail feathers, so these feathers tend to get longer and longer. At present, they are so long and cumbersome that they are a real disadvantage in everyday survival. I read somewhere that the peacock would have been long extinct if humans hadn't domesticated them.

Some of the animals with antlers must be approaching the same state. the breeding advantage that antlers give them guarantees that they will grow bigger, but they are a real nuisance in everyday life.

As for fortuitous accidents destroying some individuals, I think it's clear. Some unusual event -- an earthquake or a flood -- could destroy all of the animals who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Since it was not the characteristics of the individual, but chance, that determined who survived, this would not be part of the evolutionary process.

Bubble
March 11, 2006 - 01:50 am
Joan, there are some Paradise Birds with such long tail feathers that I always feared they could get tangled in the trees where they live. I don't believe they are domesticated. Of course they are beautiful.

I agree with Darwin's observations here. I still wonder if it is true everywhere, or if there exist some exceptions to the rule. Are nowhere females more colorful or bigger, stronger, more dominant than males?

I wish my memory was better, I recollect dimly having read about an African tribe where men where much shorter than their wives and where they did the manial work while their women decided on the working of the tribe and when to hunt. Coloful clothes are coming back now to grace our men.

robert b. iadeluca
March 11, 2006 - 05:08 am
"Thus it is, as I believe, that when the males and females of any animal have the same general habits of life, but differ in structure, colour, or ornament, such differences have been mainly caused by sexual selection -- that is, by individual males having had, in successive generations, some slight advantage over other males -- in their weapons, means of defence, or charms -- which they have transmitted to their male offspring alone.

"Yet, I would not wish to attribute all sexual differences to this agency. We see in our domestic animals peculiarities arising and becoming attached to the male sex, which apparently have not been augmented through selection by man.

"The tuft of hair on the breast of the wild turkey-cock cannot be of any use, and it is doubtful whether it can be ornamental in the eyes of the female bird. Indeed, had the tuft appeared under domestication, it would have been called a monstrosity."

How does Darwin know that this tuft of hair is not of any use?

Robby

Bubble
March 11, 2006 - 05:17 am
Maybe he is thinking of his own hairy chest that has no visible purpose? lol

robert b. iadeluca
March 11, 2006 - 07:16 am
Is this EVOLUTION IN ACTION?

Robby

Scrawler
March 11, 2006 - 11:42 am
The "tuft of hair" may not be of any use as far as sexual selection goes, but it must have been put there for reason. Perhaps its just one of those things that Nature throws into the mix or perhaps there was a prior purpose that humans don't know about and that purpose is no longer part of the bird's survival. It would be interesting to know if there are any other examples in the wild like this where the animal or bird retained something from a distant pass that no longer is useful in today's world.

robert b. iadeluca
March 11, 2006 - 11:48 am
The peahen sits around waiting for the conquering peacock and then "chooses" the winner. I wonder if a peacock ever looks at the three peahens sitting there, says "no nothing interesting here" and decides not to vaunt his tail.

Robby

Bubble
March 11, 2006 - 11:52 am
I have never seen a tomcat, a male dog or any other show indifference when near a female in heat. I know that when I kept my female dog locked at home for those endless days, I had a herd of maybe fifteen to twenty dogs camping day and night around the building's front door. Surely they knew they didn't have a chance...?

robert b. iadeluca
March 11, 2006 - 12:35 pm
Can female plants be in heat?

Robby

Bubble
March 11, 2006 - 12:39 pm
Can male plant say "no nothing interesting here" ? There certainly is a season when the flowers can reproduce and give seeds.

robert b. iadeluca
March 11, 2006 - 01:08 pm
You're in rare form today, Bubble!

I think everyone else is sleeping.

Robby

Bubble
March 11, 2006 - 01:11 pm
shabbat mood... The others are preparing for a day of rest?

Mallylee
March 11, 2006 - 03:46 pm
Yes I can see that a massive accident such as an earthquake, that destroyed breeding individuals whether of not they were strong specimens, would not have an evolutionary effect.

Mallylee
March 11, 2006 - 03:53 pm
Scrawler#186 the human vermiform appendix? An example of a bit of the body that is no use, but once was some use, although i forget what use it once was.

robert b. iadeluca
March 11, 2006 - 04:21 pm
Illustrations of the Action of Natural Selection, or the Survival of the Fittest.

robert b. iadeluca
March 11, 2006 - 04:29 pm
"In order to make it clear how, as I believe, natural selection acts, I must beg permission to give one or two imaginary illustrations.

"Let us take the case of a wolf, which preys on various animals, securing some by craft, some by strength, and some by fleetness.

"Let us suppose that the fleetest prey, a deer for instance, had from any change in the country increased in numbers -- or that other prey had decreased in numbers, during that season of the year when the wolf was hardest pressed for food.

"Under such circumstances the swiftest and slimmest wolves would have the best chance of surviving and so be preserved or selected -- provided always that they retained strength to master their prey at this or some other period of the year, when they were compelled to prey on other animals.

"I can see no more reason to doubt that this would be the result, than that man should be able to improve the fleetness of his greyhounds by careful and methodical selection, or by that kind of unconscious selection which follows from each man trying to keep the best dogs without any thought of modifying the breed.

"I may add, that, according to Mr. Pierce, there are two varieties of the wolf inhabiting the Catskill Mountains, in the United States -- one with a light greyhound-like form, which pursues deer -- and the other more bulky, with shorter legs, which more frequently attacks the shepherd's flocks."

I believe that Darwin is once again comparing Nature with Man. If Man can improve the fleetness of his greyhounds generation by generation, then Nature can do it with wolves generation by generation. The wolf with the shorter legs, he says, doesn't bother with the deer but preys on the slower sheep.

Robby

JoanK
March 11, 2006 - 07:14 pm
"Are nowhere females more colorful or bigger, stronger, more dominant than males? "

In birds, an example of this is the phalaropes. There it is the female who is brightly colored. And it is the dull colored male who takes care of the young. Female hawks are bigger and stronger than males. I don't know if this relates to behavior.

The duller colors are protective of the bird on the nest. You can usually tell the division of labor in taking care of the young by whether there are differences in color. In the majority of bird species, the sexes are identically colored and take turns at the nest.(examples mockingbirds, catbirds, blue jays etc. The duller female cardinal abandons the young as soon as they are fledged and goes off to form a new family, leaving the gaudy male to feed the brood)

In almost almost all of the rest, the females are more dully colored, and they stay on the nest.(e.g. hummingbirds), In some of these species, the male loses his bright coat after the breeding season is over and assumes the duller female coat for the winter (e.g. goldfinch, indigo bunting).

Sorry to go on for so long. I guess there are two lessons to be learned from all this: differences in appearance and behavior are closely related, and there is a good deal of variety in animal behavior: those who claim that only limited forms of behavior are "natural" don't know much about nature.

Bubble
March 12, 2006 - 02:04 am
Malllylee, about the Human appendix: "We all might be dead, in fact, if we were born without an appendix."

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0718appendix.asp

Bubble
March 12, 2006 - 02:12 am
# 196 Robby, isn't that what was said in your URL on EVOLUTION IN ACTION?

Thanks Joan, for reminding me of those male birds being the carer of their chicks. I forgot about that.

I do remember it is the role of the seahorse (Hippocampe in French)who holds the eggs in his mouth for the whole period until they hatch out. Talk about a dedicated dad, he has to fast and not swallow them. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
March 12, 2006 - 04:28 am
Is THIS what Darwin was referring to when he spoke of upsetting the "balance" of nature.

Robby

Bubble
March 12, 2006 - 05:23 am


robert b. iadeluca
March 12, 2006 - 06:54 am
"It should be observed that, in the above illustration, I speak of the slimmest individual wolves, and not of any single strongly-marked variation having been preserved.

"In former editions of this work I sometimes spoke as if this latter alternative had frequently occurred.

"I saw the great importance of individual differences, and this led me fully to discuss the results of unconscious selection by man, which depends on the preservation of all the more or less valuable individuals, and on the destruction of the worst.

"I saw, also, that the preservation in a state of nature of any occasional deviation of structure, such as a monstrosity, would be a rare event -- and that, if at first preserved, it would generally be lost by subsequent intercrossing with ordinary individuals.

"Nevertheless, until reading an able and valuable article in the North British Review (1867), I did not appreciate how rarely single variations, whether slight or strongly-marked, could be. perpetuated. The author takes the case of a pair of animals, producing during their lifetime two hundred offspring, of which, from various causes of destruction, only two on an average survive to procreate their kind.

"This is rather an extreme estimate for most of the higher animals, but by no means so for many of the lower organisms.

"He then shows that if a single individual were born, which varied in some manner -- giving it twice as good a chance of life as that of the other individuals -- yet the chances would be strongly against its survival.

"Supposing it to survive and to breed, and that half its young inherited the favourable variation -- still, as the reviewer goes on to show, the young would have only a slightly better chance of surviving and breeding. This chance would go on decreasing in the succeeding generations.

"The justice of these remarks cannot, I think, be disputed. If, for instance, a bird of some kind could procure its food more easily by having its beak curved -- and if one were born with its beak strongly curved, and which consequently flourished -- nevertheless there would be a very poor chance of this one individual perpetuating its kind to the exclusion of the common form.

"There can hardly be a doubt, judging by what we see taking place under domestication, that this result would follow from the preservation during many generations of a large number of individuals with more or less strongly curved beaks, and from the destruction of a still larger number with the straightest beaks."

If I can over-simplify here, I believe Darwin is saying that in Nature destruction is commonplace -- that, in fact, that more organisms are destroyed than survive. This being so, he says, the odds of one specific individual difference surviving and breeding are infinitestimal.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 12, 2006 - 06:59 am
How are we doing, folks? Has almost everyone dropped out?

Robby

Bubble
March 12, 2006 - 07:08 am
still here, pondering on the survival ratio. Bubble

Phoenixaq
March 12, 2006 - 09:03 am
Great job, Robby - one of the first things I read every morning. But, probably like some others, I'm just learning, don't know enought to offer any explanations, and will pop in if I have any questions. Thanks.

robert b. iadeluca
March 12, 2006 - 09:27 am
Give us lots of questions, Phoenix. That's what keeps this discussion going. Maybe none of us will have the answers, but that's OK. Darwin had lots of questions, too.

Robby

Mallylee
March 12, 2006 - 09:37 am
Bubbles, your link re the vermiform appendix is a Creationist site, and is therefore anti-evolutionary.

While the appendix probably is lymphatic tissue similar to the tonsils, it's a comparatively small amount of lymphatic tissue, and even if this is a fact it does not exclude that the appendix is a vestigial bit of gut that evolved from herbivore gut

Mallylee
March 12, 2006 - 09:55 am
Robby#202

I think Darwin is saying that the chance of a mutant individula's surviving is very slight. He is also saying that in some species,the chance of a mutant's surviving to breed is better.

Fruit flies reproduce very fast and are much used in labs for this reason. I think establishment of mutant strains can be demonstrated in fruit flies. True, in spite of the more dangerous wild conditions, fruit flies breed so fast that mutant strains become established fast. And as for the flu virus ----!

Bubble
March 12, 2006 - 09:56 am
To tell the truth, I would not recognize the credits of the site, butI was looking for a site saying the same I heard at Hadassah hospital last time I was there. They said to me that the appendix is not so important in older people but should be preserved as much as possible in children and young persons to combat infections.

Mallylee
March 12, 2006 - 10:00 am
Bubble I have also read that the appendix used to be whipped out whenever any laparotomy was done,as a prophylactic measure. But they dont do this now, if only becuase the appendix is a va,uable piece of spare part for re-constructive bladder surgery

Bubble
March 12, 2006 - 10:05 am
That is how I lost mine. I want it back!!!! lol

Scrawler
March 12, 2006 - 12:20 pm
I just read somewhere in one of my enviornmental magazines that fewer offspring are being born to higher animals like bears, moutain lions etc. And because there are less young - fewer are surviving and because fewer are surviving the individual species are slowly disappearing. Now this takes a long time and it doesn't help when "man" takes a hand and preys on the young or healthy unlike natural predators that would attack the old and feeble and thus strengthen the existing pack. At any rate in conclusion, the article indicated that in the not too distant future that these conditions would effect man as well since we depend on these animals for food. It reminds me of the Buffalo of the past - what would it be like had we not hunted these creatures to extinction.

robert b. iadeluca
March 13, 2006 - 04:16 am
"It should not, however, be overlooked that certain rather strongly marked variations -- which no one would rank as mere individual differences -- frequently recur owing to a similar organisation being similarly acted on-- of which fact numerous instances could be given with our domestic productions.

"In such cases, if the varying individual did not actually transmit to its offspring its newly-acquired character, it would undoubtedly transmit to them -- as long as the existing conditions remained the same -- a still stronger tendency to vary in the same manner.

"There can also be little doubt that the tendency to vary in the same manner has often been so strong that all the individuals of the same species have been similarly modified without the aid of any form of selection.

"Only a third, fifth, or tenth part of the individuals may have been thus affected, of which fact several instances could be given.

"Thus Graba estimates that about one-fifth of the guillemots in the Faroe Islands consist of a variety so well marked, that it was formerly ranked as a distinct species under the name of Uria lacrymans.

"In cases of this kind, if the variation were of a beneficial nature, the original form would soon be supplanted by the modified form, through the survival of the fittest."

Darwin tells us here (I believe) that when major variations occur, the parent often transmits either the variation to its offspring or at least a "tendency" to vary in that manner. He even sees entire groups of organisms in the same species changing in this manner. (This seems like a big jump in logic to me.)

Darwin calls these changes "newly-acquired characters." I'm trying to think of the name of the man in the Soviet Union who spoke of the passing along of newly acquired characters to offspring, and he was roundly derided.

If my mother taught me to be a good reader, can that newly acquired character be passed along to my children?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 13, 2006 - 04:22 am
Here is the fellow LAMARCK I was talking about.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 13, 2006 - 04:26 am
Here is a detailed article about the INHERITANCE OF ACQUIRED CHARACTERISTICS.

Robby

georgehd
March 13, 2006 - 06:39 am
It is interesting to me that Lamarck's name comes up now. I remember posting about him a long time ago and his theory of inheritance of acquired characteristics. I believe that I pointed out that Communist Russia in the 1930's believed in Lamarckianism and not Darwinism; this mistaken belief set back the Russian study of genetics by thirty or forty years.

Mallylee
March 13, 2006 - 07:59 am
but similar in that the eggs and the sperm(not the body proper) can be changed by life events. I have forgotten what the study is called.

For instance, a famine event can change the reproductive cells of males and females so that the offspring have changes in their nervous responses. I think there was some advantage to the offspring.I must try to find the reference

Mallylee
March 13, 2006 - 08:02 am
but similar in that the eggs and the sperm(not the body proper) can be changed by life events. I have forgotten what the study is called.

For instance, a famine event can change the reproductive cells of males and females so that the offspring have changes in their nervous responses. I think there was some advantage to the offspring.I must try to find the reference.

Here it is

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/ghostgenes.shtml

Mallylee
March 13, 2006 - 11:02 am
I now read all of the long article on Robby's link and I see that the theory is called 'epigenetics'. I always find that I can umderstand a theory when I have some examples of the theory's application

robert b. iadeluca
March 13, 2006 - 05:50 pm
"To the effects of intercrossing in eliminating variations of all kinds, I shall have to recur.

"But it may be here remarked that most animals and plants keep to their proper homes, and do not needlessly wander about. We see this even with migratory birds, which almost always return to the same spot.

"Consequently each newly-formed variety would generally be at first local, as seems to be the common rule with varieties in a state of nature. So that similarly modified individuals would soon exist in a small body together, and would often breed together.

"If the new variety were successful in its battle for life, it would slowly spread from a central district, competing with and conquering the unchanged individuals on the margins of an ever-increasing circle."

I believe this is fairly clear.

Robby

Bubble
March 14, 2006 - 02:25 am
Does that mean that with inter-marriage we will all be finally the same color?

robert b. iadeluca
March 14, 2006 - 04:55 am
It is not my intention to stimulate a discussion regarding genes as Darwin never heard of them and we are trying to remain side by side with him. However, he does regularly speak of the STRUGGLE FOR SURVIVAL among individual organisms and this is a novel theory.

Robby

Phoenixaq
March 14, 2006 - 09:01 am
This sounds very much like the theory that that made Gould famous - "punctuated equilibrium".

Scrawler
March 14, 2006 - 12:22 pm
Very good Bubble! I like that. Actually, I think we already are the same color under the skin.

I keep going back to my "sea-lion" example and salmon. If the salmons are compelled to go back to the same place each year and the sea-lions are also compelled to do the same wouldn't it seem that the smaller animals wouldn't have a chance at survival? Is this all part of nature?

robert b. iadeluca
March 14, 2006 - 06:43 pm
"It may be worth while to give another and more complex illustration of the action of natural selection.

"Certain plants excrete sweet juice, apparently for the sake of eliminating something injurious from the sap. This is effected, for instance, by glands at the base of the stipules in some Leguminosae and at the backs of the leaves of the common laurel.

"This juice, though small in quantity, is greedily sought by insects. But their visits do not in any way benefit the plant.

"Now, let us suppose that the juice or nectar was excreted from the inside of the flowers of a certain number of plants of any species. Insects in seeking the nectar would get dusted with pollen, and would often transport it from one flower to another.

"The flowers of two distinct individuals of the same species would thus get crossed; and the act of crossing, as can be fully proved, gives rise to vigorous seedlings which consequently would have the best chance of flourishing and surviving

"The plants which produced flowers with the largest glands or nectaries, excreting most nectar, would oftenest be visited by insects, and would oftenest be crossed -- and so in the long run would gain the upper hand and form a local variety.

"The flowers, also, which had their stamens and pistils placed, in relation to the size and habits of the particular insects which visited them -- so as to favour in any degree the transportal of the pollen -- would likewise be favoured.

"We might have taken the case of insects visiting flowers for the sake of collecting pollen instead of nectar, As pollen is formed for the sole purpose of fertilisation, its destruction appears to be a simple loss to the plant. Yet if a little pollen were carried, at first occasionally and then habitually, by the pollen-devouring insects from flower to flower, and a cross thus effected -- although nine-tenths of the pollen were destroyed it might still be a great gain to the plant to be thus robbed.

"The individuals which produced more and more pollen, and had larger anthers, would be selected."

So more is better?

Any comments about cross-fertilization?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2006 - 06:32 am
What happens when an ALIEN SPECIES encroaches on the territory of the native species.

Robby

Malryn
March 15, 2006 - 05:35 pm

On a high here because I found out today I beat some odds after breaking the femur of my left leg and refusing the surgery suggested/ The bone was pronounced competely healed through no effort of modern science, and why? Because nature (as we call it) has a force that heals? I don't know/ I mean, what is nature? What is healing? How do we comprehend what doesn't seem real from our own particular point of voew?

JoanK
March 16, 2006 - 01:58 am
YEAH MAL!!! Nature, heck -- I'll bet you told that leg it had better heal OR ELSE!

robert b. iadeluca
March 16, 2006 - 04:34 am
"When our plant, by the above process long continued, had been rendered highly attractive to insects, they would -- unintentionally on their part -- regularly carry pollen from flower to flower.

"That they do this effectually, I could easily show by many striking facts.

"I will give only one, as likewise illustrating one step in the separation of the sexes of plants. Some holly-trees bear only male flowers, which have four stamens producing a rather small quantity of pollen, and a rudimentary pistil. Other holly-trees bear only female flowers. These have a full-sized pistil, and four stamens with shrivelled anthers, in which not a grain of pollen can be detected.

"Having found a female tree exactly sixty yards from a male tree, I put the stigmas of twenty flowers, taken from different branches, under the microscope. On all, without exception, there were a few pollen grains, and on some a profusion.

"As the wind had set for several days from the female to the male tree, the pollen could not thus have been carried. The weather had been cold and boisterous, and therefore not favourable to bees. Nevertheless every female flower which I examined had been effectually fertilised by the bees, which had flown from tree to tree in search of nectar.

"But to return to our imaginary case -- as soon as the plant had been rendered so highly attractive to insects that pollen was regularly carried from flower to flower, another process might commence.

"No naturalist doubts the advantage of what has been called the "physiological division of labour". Hence we may believe that it would be advantageous to a plant to produce stamens alone in one flower or on one whole plant, and pistils alone in another flower or on another plant.

"In plants under culture and placed under new conditions of life, sometimes the male organs and sometimes the female organs become more or less impotent. Now if we suppose this to occur in ever so slight a degree under nature -- then, as pollen is already carried regularly from flower to flower -- and as a more complete separation of the sexes of our plant would be advantageous on the principle of the division of labour -- individuals with this tendency more and more increased, would be continually favoured or selected, until at last a complete separation of the sexes might be effected.

"It would take up too much space to show the various steps, through dimorphism and other means, by which the separation of the sexes in plants of various kinds is apparently now in progress. I may add that some of the species of holly in North America, are, according to Asa Gray, in an exactly intermediate condition, or, as he expresses it, are more or less dioeciously polygamous."

Anyone want to help me here explaining how plants separated into sexes and the advantage of this?

Robby

Mallylee
March 16, 2006 - 04:50 pm
I think there began to be a degree of atrophy of the pollen producing organs (stamens) in some individuals, and of the pistil (I think this develops into the fruit) in other flowers.

The pollenating insects continue to pollenate effectively, and the plants reduce any waste of their energies by their flowers becoming either stamen-bearing, or pistil-bearing, but not both. This specialisation process happens gradually.

The pistil-bearing flowers are female, and the stamen-bearing flowers are male.

robert b. iadeluca
March 16, 2006 - 05:42 pm
What do the rest of you think?

Robby

Phoenixaq
March 16, 2006 - 07:48 pm
Robby, I have read this part three times and don't understand what he is saying. I'm hoping that you or some of the others will explain.

georgehd
March 17, 2006 - 05:57 am
These two web sites may be of interest. There are others - just do a google search. (separation of sexes in Plants)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/10/001003073154.htm

http://biomechanics.bio.uci.edu/_html/nh_biomech/pollen/pollen.htm

robert b. iadeluca
March 17, 2006 - 06:01 am
Let's go on to the next paragraph and see what he says.

"Let us now turn to the nectar-feeding insects. We may suppose the plant, of which we have been slowly increasing the nectar by continued selection, to be a common plant -- that certain insects depended in main part on its nectar for food.

"I could give many facts showing how anxious bees are to save time -- for instance, their habit of cutting holes and sucking the nectar at the bases of certain flowers -- which, with a very little more trouble, they can enter by the mouth.

"Bearing such facts in mind, it may be believed that under certain circumstances individual differences in the curvature or length of the proboscis -- too slight to be appreciated by us -- might profit a bee or other insect.

"Certain individuals would be able to obtain their food more quickly than others. Thus the communities to which they belonged would flourish and throw off many swarms inheriting the same peculiarities.

"The tubes of the corolla of the common red and incarnate clovers (Trifolium pratense and incarnatum) do not on a hasty glance appear to differ in length. Yet the hive-bee can easily suck the nectar out of the incarnate clover, but not out of the common red clover, which is visited by humble-bees alone.

"Whole fields of red clover offer in vain an abundant supply of precious nectar to the hive-bee.

"That this nectar is much liked by the hive-bee is certain. I have repeatedly seen, but only in the autumn, many hive-bees sucking the flowers through holes bitten in the base of the tube by humble-bees.

"The difference in the length of the corolla in the two kinds of clover, which determines the visits of the hive-bee, must be very trifling. I have been assured that when red clover has been mown, the flowers of the second crop are somewhat smaller, and that these are visited by many hive-bees.

"I do not know whether this statement is accurate -- nor whether another published statement can be trusted -- namely, that the Ligurian bee which is generally considered a mere variety of the common hive-bee, and which freely crosses with it, is able to reach and suck the nectar of the red clover.

"In a country where this kind of clover abounded, it might be a great advantage to the hive-bee to have a slightly longer or differently constructed proboscis.

"On the other hand, as the fertility of this clover absolutely depends on bees visiting the flowers, if humble-bees were to become rare in any country, it might be a great advantage to the plant to have a, shorter or more deeply divided corolla, so that the hive-bees should be enabled to suck its flowers.

"Thus I can understand how a flower and a bee might slowly become -- either simultaneously or one after the other -- modified and adapted to each other in the most perfect manner, by the continued preservation of all the individuals which presented slight deviations of structure mutually favourable to each other."

I believe that Darwin's last sentence tells the whole story. The earlier part of the paragraph gives facts to back it up.

He is saying, if I understand correctly, that the clover and the bees work together as a team, so to speak, and that each organism changes over the generations to adapt to each other. The shape of the flower's corolla changes to make it easier for the bee to obtain the nectar and the length or shape of the bee's "tongue" also changes over generations for the same reason.

Makes sense?

Robby

Mallylee
March 17, 2006 - 10:07 am
That seems clear Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 18, 2006 - 05:54 am
This story about poison affecting the birds' food which then affected the strength of the egg shell is exactly what DARWIN has been telling us.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 20, 2006 - 05:27 am
"I am well aware that this doctrine of natural selection, exemplified in the above imaginary instances, is open to the same objections which were first urged against Sir Charles Lyell's noble views on "the modern changes of the earth, as illustrative of geology".

"But we now seldom hear the agencies which we see still at work, spoken of as trifling or insignificant, when used in explaining the excavation of the deepest valleys or the formation of long lines of inland cliffs.

"Natural selection acts only by the preservation and accumulation of small inherited modifications, each profitable to the preserved being.

"As modern geology has almost banished such views as the excavation of a great valley by a single diluvial wave, so will natural selection banish the belief of the continued creation of new organic beings, or of any great and sudden modification in their structure."

Darwin here compares his theory with certain geologic theories. He tells us that geologists used to think that deep valleys were carved out suddenly by giant waves but they have changed their thinking. They now believe that these valleys were carved out ever so slowly much in the same way that the Grand Canyon was slowly carved out by the Colorado River.

Just as rocks evolve, he tells us, so living organisms evolve in the very same minute step by step over the eons. He calls this Natural Selection.

Robby

Scrawler
March 20, 2006 - 10:45 am
"Darwin compares his theory with certain geologic theories. He tells us that geologists used to think that deep valleys were carved out suddenly by giant waves..."

"Just as rocks evolve, he tells us, so living organisms evolve in the very same minute step by step over the eons. He calls this Natural Selection."

My question is: can living organisms be compared to non-living organisms? Do they both evolve equally and are living organisms and non-organisms still evolving?

I saw on 60-minutes last night where the report given to congress each year on the environment was "red-penciled" by government lawyers before it was sent out. How will this affect the earth in the future?

JoanK
March 20, 2006 - 04:41 pm
I believe I remember that there was quite a bit of discussion in geology as to whether geologic features were formed gradually or suddenly.

robert b. iadeluca
March 20, 2006 - 04:52 pm
On the Intercrossing of Individuals

robert b. iadeluca
March 20, 2006 - 05:34 pm
"I must here introduce a short digression.

"In the case of animals and plants with separated sexes, it is of course obvious that two individuals must always (with the exception of the curious and not well-understood cases of parthenogenesis) unite for each birth.

"But in the case of hermaphrodites this is far from obvious. Nevertheless there is reason to believe that with all hermaphrodites two individuals, either occasionally or habitually, concur for the reproduction of their kind.

"This view was long ago doubtfully suggested by Sprengel, Knight and Kolreuter. We shall presently see its importance. But I must here treat the subject with extreme brevity, though I have the materials prepared for an ample discussion.

"All vertebrate animals, all insects, and some other large groups of animals, pair for each birth. Modern research has much diminished the number of supposed hermaphrodites, and of real hermaphrodites a large number pair -- that is, two individuals regularly unite for reproduction, which is all that concerns us.

"But still there are many hermaphrodite animals which certainly do not habitually pair, and a vast majority of plants are hermaphrodites.

"What reason, it may be asked, is there for supposing in these cases that two individuals ever concur in reproduction? As it is impossible here to enter on details, I must trust to some general considerations alone."

To help us here, let us link to some definitions.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 20, 2006 - 05:37 pm
Here is a definition of PARTHENOGENESIS.

The key word is "unfertilized."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 20, 2006 - 05:41 pm
Here is a definition of HERMAPHRODITE.

Robby

Bubble
March 21, 2006 - 12:01 am
Thus cloning is...something else.

Why is it strange in plants that flowers could be both male and female? With the help of bees and flies, they fertilize themselves. Simple. I bet there would be a population explosion if humans could be like that too! Bubble

P.S. How very strange Robby: when I opened this discussion a minute ago to check new posts, your hermaphrodite was one before last and now when I check my answer it is last, having exchange place with parthenogenesis.

Mallylee
March 21, 2006 - 01:46 am
So parthenogenesis is different from hermaphroditism. Parthenogenesis is asexual.But hermaphroditism involves two sexes in one individual.

I think cloning is more like parthenogenesis because it involves one cell not two, I am not sure about this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4228992.stm

(This is the best I could find )

robert b. iadeluca
March 21, 2006 - 02:14 am
That was a good link, Mallylee. Lots to think about!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 21, 2006 - 02:33 am
"In the first place, I have collected so large a body of facts, and made so many experiments -- showing, in accordance with the almost universal belief of breeders, that with animals and plants a cross between different varieties -- or between individuals of the same variety but of another strain -- gives vigour and fertility to the offspring.

"On the other hand, that close interbreeding diminishes vigour and fertility -- that these facts alone incline me to believe that it is a general law of nature that no organic being fertilises itself for a perpetuity of generations.

"But that a cross with another individual is occasionally- perhaps at long intervals of time- indispensable."

Darwin gives us such long sentences! But let us break this down.

The large number of experiments he did showed the following:--

1 - A cross between different varieties gives vigor and fertility to the offspring.
2 - A cross between individuals of the same variety (but another strain) also gives vigor and fertility.
3 - Close interbreeding diminishes vigor and fertility.
4 - Darwin therefore concludes that no organism fertilizes itself for a long line of generations.
5 - He also concludes that a cross with another individual over a long period of time is indispensable.

Any thoughts about close interbreeding?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 21, 2006 - 02:37 am
Here are some definitions of INTERBREEDING.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 21, 2006 - 03:42 am
Here is one result of CLOSE INTERBREEDING. I challenge you to read it all the way through. It will make you pause and think.

Robby

Mallylee
March 21, 2006 - 04:09 am
#249 The Link

My first impression is that's the best news I have heard about imams. Very welcome good news.

Also, it's wonderful that Israelis and Palestinians are co-operating in the project. From little acorns great oaks can grow.

georgehd
March 21, 2006 - 05:53 am
re Post 244. Self fertilization in plants was necessary because plants evolved before insects. I imagine that wind and rain played an important part in plant fertilization before the advent of animals.

While unrelated to this discussion, I would urge many of you to read Tom Friedman's new book, The World is Flat. It discusses evolution in a very different context which is probably more important today than Darwinian evolution.

robert b. iadeluca
March 21, 2006 - 05:53 pm
"On the belief that this is a law of nature, we can, I think, understand several large classes of facts -- such as the following -- which on any other view are inexplicable.

"Every hybridizer knows how unfavourable exposure to wet is to the fertilisation of a flower, yet what a multitude of flowers have their anthers and stigmas fully exposed to the weather!

"If an occasional cross be indispensable -- notwithstanding that the plant's own anthers and pistil stand so near each other as almost to insure self-fertilisation -- the fullest freedom for the entrance of pollen from another individual will explain the above state of exposure of the organs.

"Many flowers, on the other hand, have their organs of fructification closely enclosed, as in the great papilionaceous or pea-family. These almost invariably present beautiful and curious adaptations in relation to the visits of insects.

"So necessary are the visits of bees to many papilionaceous flowers, that their fertility is greatly diminished if these visits be prevented. It is scarcely possible for insects to fly from flower and flower, and not to carry pollen from one to the other, to the great good of the plant.

"Insects act like a camel-hair pencil, and it is sufficient to ensure fertilisation, just to touch with the same brush the anthers of one flower and then the stigma of another. But it must not be supposed that bees would thus produce a multitude of hybrids between distinct species.

"If a plant's own pollen and that from another species are placed on the same stigma, the former is so prepotent that it invariably and completely destroys, as has been shown by Gartner, the influence of the foreign pollen."

Will someone help me to understand this?

Robby

Mallylee
March 22, 2006 - 12:51 am
Hybridisation is sometimes resisted ?

Mippy
March 22, 2006 - 08:04 am
Robby ~ What is your question?
I have been trying to catch up with many posts, having been away.
However, botany is not my strong suit.

One would assume that plants like peas, or others which require insects for cross-pollination, did not evolve until insects had also come into being. However, I don't have a reference for this.
It looks like Darwin's contemporary did experiments by trying to cross-pollinate plants, with a brush or similar tool, and found out that species of plants that were dissimilar did not successfully cross.
Is that your understanding of this paragraph?

Sunknow
March 22, 2006 - 01:39 pm
It's been twenty-five years ago, but once upon a time, during a University break, I got started taking Horticulture classes at local Jr. College, and ended up with enough credits to get an Associate Degree in Horticulture, which I never followed up on, going for a B.A.Degree, later on.

We had a young Professor (younger than I was) that had taken an old home and turned it into an experimental lab. He grew Orchids (and other plants) in half the house where he had removed part of the roof, and created a greenhouse. But mainly, he was into Cell Research, and had some very expensive equipment in his Lab. He experimented and tried to cross pollinate many plants. He came up with some strange but wonderful plants some times, but if I remember correctly, he found that there were some plants that just would NOT cross pollinate, not even in a test tube. I wish I could remember more....it was fascinating, but even then I was not a student of science.

A small aside to the trips to his lab.....he had converted the former Utility Room in the old house to another wonderful experiment.....he made some of the most divine wine you have ever tasted. We always left by the back door. ummmmm.

Hope I didn't distract you too much,

Sun

robert b. iadeluca
March 22, 2006 - 05:32 pm
Keep making comments, folks. I don't want to get the feeling that I am talking to myself.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 22, 2006 - 06:21 pm
"When the stamens of a flower suddenly spring towards the pistil, or slowly move one after the other towards it, the contrivance seems adapted solely to ensure self-fertilisation.

"No doubt it is useful for this end. But the agency of insects is often required to cause the stamens to spring forward, as Kolreuter has shown to be the case with the barberry.

"In this very genus, which seems to have a special contrivance for self-fertilisation, it is well known that -- if closely allied forms or varieties are planted near each other -- it is hardly possible to raise pure seedlings, so largely do they naturally cross.

"In numerous other cases -- far from self-fertilisation being favoured -- there are special contrivances which effectually prevent the stigma receiving pollen from its own flower -- as I could show from the works of Sprengel and others, as well as from my own observations.

"For instance, in Lobelia fulgens, there is a really beautiful and elaborate contrivance by which all the infinitely numerous pollen-granules are swept out of the conjoined anthers of each flower, before the stigma of that individual flower is ready to receive them.

"As this flower is never visited, at least in my garden, by insects, it never sets a seed, though by placing pollen from one flower on the stigma of another, I raise plenty of seedlings.

"Another species of Lobelia which is visited by bees, seeds freely in my garden. In very many other cases, though, there is no special mechanical contrivance to prevent the stigma receiving pollen from the same flower.

"Yet, as Sprengel, and more recently Hildebrand, and others, have shown, and as I can confirm, either the anthers burst before the stigma is ready for fertilisation, or the stigma is ready before the pollen of that flower is ready.

"These so-named dichogamous plants have in fact separated sexes, and must habitually be crossed.

"So it is with the reciprocally dimorphic and trimorphic plants previously alluded to.

"How strange are these facts! How strange that the pollen and stigmatic surface of the same flower, though placed so close together, as if for the very purpose of self-fertilisation, should be in so many cases mutually useless to each other!

"How simply are these facts explained on the view of an occasional cross with a distinct individual being advantageous or indispensable!"

Let me see if I have this correct. The stamens are the male organs. The pistil is the female organ. I have no idea what the stigma are. The stamens often suddenly spring toward the pistil. (How male can you get?)

However, Darwin says, the action of insects (bees for instance?) is often needed to get the stamens to do their springing. One would think, he says, that with the stamens and pistil being so close together that self-fertilization would take place. But not so. There are mechanical "contrivances" which prevent the stigma from receiving pollen from its own flower. One of the mechanical "contrivances" "sweeps out" the pollen before the stigma is ready to receive it.

In Darwin's garden no insects ever visit this flower so it never sets a seed. On the other hand, when Darwin placed the pollen from another flower on the stigma of the original flower, there were plenty of seedings.

There are some flowers, according to Darwin, which do not have contrivances which sweep the pollen away but the anthers burst before the stigma is ready or the stigma is ready before the pollen is ready.

And so while such plants which have both male and female organs within each plant, nevertheless they must be crossed with another plant.

In effect, the male organ and the female organ within the same plant are useless to each other. How strange, comments Darwin!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 22, 2006 - 06:28 pm
Here is the definition of STIGMA.

I guess it is the sticky part of the female organ (pistil) which holds onto the pollen.

Do you think the Senior Net "powers that be" are going to banish us for our pornographic messages? Steady as you go, folks.

Robby

JoanK
March 22, 2006 - 06:33 pm
I remember as a child being told that earthworms are hermaphrodites. They have a female organ at one end and a female organ at the other. They line up head to tail and fertilize each other. I don't know if it's true, but if so, it would be the animal equivalent of what he's talking about.

robert b. iadeluca
March 22, 2006 - 06:33 pm
Here is the definition of ANTHER.

I guess the anther is the portion of the male organ (stamen) which produces pollen.

As we read this, does it strike any of you how similar are the reproductive organs of plants and mammals, for instance?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 22, 2006 - 06:47 pm
Here is the definition of DICHOGAMOUS.

Sort of like a man who is "ready" and a woman who is "ready" (if you get my drift) but somehow don't walk on the same street at the same time.

Isn't that sad about that poor plant?

Of all sad words of tongue or pen
The saddest are "it might have been."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 22, 2006 - 06:56 pm
Definition of DIMORPHISM

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 22, 2006 - 07:10 pm
Now that we have read the definitions, perhaps if we go back to Post 257, it will become more clear.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 22, 2006 - 08:07 pm
Oh! It's clear all right, but what if fertilization was always favorable, there would be an over prolification of that plant which would overtake the territory meant for a variety of species less aggressively reproducing. What is meant to happen happens and if it does not happen, it might be for the best.

Bubble
March 23, 2006 - 12:22 am


A stigma is part of the female part of a flower ; that part of a pistil which has no epidermis , and isfitted to receive the pollen . It is usually the terminal (end) portion, and is commonlysomewhat glutinous or viscid.

The spice saffron is taken from the stigma of the saffron crocus, Crocus sativus.

Bubble
March 23, 2006 - 12:26 am
sorry, I just saw the defin was already posted. Am rushing: work at library today.

robert b. iadeluca
March 23, 2006 - 03:02 am
"If several varieties of the cabbage, radish, onion, and of some other plants, be allowed to seed near each other, a large majority of the seedlings thus raised turn out, as I have found, mongrels.

"For instance, I raised 233 seedling cabbages from some plants of different varieties growing near each other, and of these only 78 were true to their kind, and some even of these were not perfectly true.

"Yet the pistil of each cabbage-flower is surrounded not only by its own six stamens but by those of the many other flowers on the same plant. And the pollen of each flower readily gets on its own stigma without insect agency. I have found that plants carefully protected from insects produce the full number of pods.

"How, then, comes it that such a vast number of the seedlings are mongrelized? It must arise from the pollen of a distinct variety having a prepotent effect over the flower's own pollen -- and that this is part of the general law of good being derived from the intercrossing of distinct individuals of the same species.

"When distinct species are crossed the case is reversed, for a plant's own pollen is almost always prepotent over foreign pollen.

"To this subject we shall return in a future chapter."

Can it be, as Darwin thinks, that the pollen of a different plant can be more powerful than the pollen of the plant itself, and therefore fertilize it? Do you agree with Darwin that "this is part of the general law of good being?"

Robby

Bubble
March 23, 2006 - 05:14 am
It would counteract the problems inherent to inbreeding and thus produce stronger seedlings.

Scrawler
March 23, 2006 - 11:32 am
I don't know that I really understand the "general law of good being" but I can see where "fate" plays a part not only in our own lives but in lives of other species.

Mallylee
March 23, 2006 - 02:20 pm
Yes, I think that when we look at wild flowers and wild animals we see that each variety never varies from its colour and patterning and form. It's as if the cultivated varieties were 'trying' to revert to the natural species.

If this is the case, that each species 'tries' to revert to type,(I'm afraid my use of the terminology is inexact) then this is not the same mechanism for the origin of species as the struggle for survival that tends to extinguish weak variants before they can procreate

robert b. iadeluca
March 25, 2006 - 05:13 am
"In the case of a large tree covered with innumerable flowers, it may be objected that pollen could seldom be carried from tree to tree, and at most only from flower to flower on the same tree. Flowers on the same tree can be considered as distinct individuals only in a limited sense.

"I believe this objection to be valid, but that nature has largely provided against it by giving to trees a strong tendency to bear flowers with separated sexes.

"When the sexes are separated, although the male and female flowers may be produced on the same tree, pollen must be regularly carried from flower to flower. This will give a better chance of pollen being occasionally carried from tree to tree.

"That trees belonging to all Orders have their sexes more often separated than other plants, I find to be the case in this country.

"At my request Dr. Hooker tabulated the trees of New Zealand, and Dr. Asa Gray those of the United States. The result was as I anticipated.

"On the other hand, Dr. Hooker informs me that the rule does not hold good in Australia but if most of the Australian trees are dichogamous, the same result would follow as if they bore flowers with separated sexes.

I have made these few remarks on trees simply to call attention to the subject."

I believe that Darwin is briefly telling us here that trees contain both male and female flowers. I hadn't known that.

Robby

georgehd
March 25, 2006 - 06:58 am
Most trees have both sex organs. Here are a few familiar species that have male and female trees: aspen, Freemont cottonwood, ginko, ficus. The Ginko from China was introduced into this country because of its beauty and unusual leaf shape. However, the smell of the fruit is awful (smells like vomit). Therefore ginkos were bred that did not bear fruit; therefore no smell. The ginko is a very interesting species and I urge that you visit this web site.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kwanten/thetree.htm

As Robbie points out in the next post, Holly also has male and female plants; I am sure that there are more not mentioned here.

robert b. iadeluca
March 25, 2006 - 07:06 am
I thought Holly had male and female trees, also.

Robby

Bubble
March 25, 2006 - 07:49 am
From personal experience Papaya, Date, and Mango have different trees bearing female flowers or male flowers. If the male flowers produce fruit, those are usually tiny and not comestible. Bubble

Bubble
March 25, 2006 - 07:54 am
Hand-pollinating dates palm tree

http://www.hansrossel.com/fotos/fotografie/iran/ir_d868.htm

Bubble
March 25, 2006 - 07:56 am
Read about POLLINATION

http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb0838/eb0838.html

http://www.cahe.nmsu.edu/pubs/_h/h-308.html

robert b. iadeluca
March 25, 2006 - 08:22 am
Excellent links, Bubble! Interesting (to me) that a sweet cherry tree takes longer to bear fruit than a sour cherry tree. Must be some reason there.

Robby

Mallylee
March 25, 2006 - 01:09 pm
Wonderful photos Bubble!

Helpful info about pollination

JoanK
March 25, 2006 - 03:35 pm
When I was a child we had a fig bush in our yard. I remember my mother being angry because it was a male, and our neighbor, who had a female got all the figs. Mom thought she should give us half.

Bubble
March 26, 2006 - 01:45 am
If she had cut the tree, the neighbour wouldn't have had any fruit!

robert b. iadeluca
March 26, 2006 - 04:51 am
"Turning for a brief space to animals -- various terrestrial species are hermaphrodites, such as the land-mollusca and earth-worms. But these all pair.

"As yet I have not found a single terrestrial animal which can fertilise itself.

"This remarkable fact -- which offers so strong a contrast with terrestrial plants -- is intelligible on the view of an occasional cross being indispensable. For owing to the nature of the fertilising element there are no means -- analogous to the action of insects and of the wind with plants -- by which an occasional cross could be effected with terrestrial animals without the concurrence of two individuals.

"Of aquatic animals, there are many self-fertilizing hermaphrodites. But here the currents of water offer an obvious means for an occasional cross.

"As in the case of flowers, I have as yet failed -- after consultation with one of the highest authorities, namely, Professor Huxley -- to discover a single hermaphrodite animal with the organs of reproduction so perfectly enclosed that access from without, and the occasional influence of a distinct individual, can be shown to be physically impossible.

"Cirripedes long appeared to me to present, under this point of view, a case of great difficulty. But I have been enabled, by a fortunate chance, to prove that two individuals, though both are self-fertilising hermaphrodites, do sometimes cross."

I'm not sure here but I believe that Darwin has said that his examination of land animals indicates that their sex organs are such that the two animals must touch. One can not rely on, for example, wind or water currents.

Robby

Bubble
March 26, 2006 - 05:00 am
Mmmmm.... artificial insemination was not heard of in his time.

robert b. iadeluca
March 26, 2006 - 08:28 pm
"It must have struck most naturalists as a strange anomaly that, both with animals and plants, some species of the same family and even of the same genus -- though agreeing closely with each other in their whole organisation -- are hermaphrodites, and some unisexual.

"But if, in fact, all hermaphrodites do occasionally intercross, the difference between them and unisexual species is, as far as function is concerned, very small.

From these several considerations and from the many special facts which I have collected -- but which I am unable here to give -- it appears that with animals and plants an occasional intercross between distinct individuals is a very general, if not universal, law of nature."

Any comments here?

Robby

Bubble
March 26, 2006 - 11:38 pm
I thought that unisexual intercross in plants or surely in animals would be very occasional and the exception in nature. It does not seem to be an aberration but I would say that nature has put all the chances on her side to insure fertilization, the more ways, the better the chance for seeds. Variety will insure success.

Mallylee
March 27, 2006 - 12:42 am
Is there a difference between having genitalia and these genitalia being functional? I mean, in a young animal?

Perhaps an animal that looks as if it has sex organs does not actually produce eggs or sperm from them.

robert b. iadeluca
March 27, 2006 - 04:49 am
Stick with us, folks. Is a pattern ever so gradually beginning to take place? We are about to enter a new subsection in Chapter Four. In the meantime, what are you seeing, if anything?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 27, 2006 - 04:51 am
Circumstances favourable for the production of new forms through Natural Selection

robert b. iadeluca
March 27, 2006 - 05:15 am
"This is an extremely intricate subject.

"A great amount of variability -- under which term individual differences are always included -- will evidently be favourable. A large number of individuals -- by giving a better chance within any given period for the appearance of profitable variations -- will compensate for a lesser amount of variability in each individual, and is, I believe, a highly important element of success.

"Though Nature grants long periods of time for the work of natural selection, she does not grant an indefinite period. As all organic beings are striving to seize on each place in the economy of nature, if any one species does not become modified and improved in a corresponding degree with its competitors, it will be exterminated.

"Unless favourable variations be inherited by some at least of the offspring, nothing can be effected by natural selection.

"The tendency to reversion may often check or prevent the work. But as this tendency has not prevented man from forming by selection numerous domestic races, why should it prevail against natural selection?"

Very interesting. Nature is patient only to a degree. Every organism, and I understand what he is telling us -- EVERY organism -- is struggling for life against every other organism.

In this battle the more variability there is, the better the chance for survival. Numbers are important. Variability among large numbers of individuals wins out over variability within one individual.

In these large numbers, as I understand it, there are more chances for variability which improves the organism. And, if I understand correctly, if there is no improvement, that trait does not remain within the individual. There MUST be improvement.

What I don't understand is how does Nature define improvement or success? Any thoughts here?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 27, 2006 - 06:02 am
Just a personal observation for me. Nature's search for improvement by each organism is defined according a standard of perfection. A perfect specimen for one organism might not seem so perfect for another but the highest number of organ isms appreciating one type of perfect appearance has a better chance of being chosen for reproduction. The more the population, the less chances imperfection will be in the race.

The same goes for human beings, what television considers as a perfect specimen is the only image of perfection or beauty society will accept. So this is why the young and beautiful are put on such a pedestal regardless of the quality of the mind which is invisible. Those who have past their prime are no longer part of the chosen few, but the young and old will do everything in their power to be or stay in the race. It is more and more in-your-face if you will.

Éloïse

Malryn
March 27, 2006 - 06:12 am

I translate "improvement" to mean "strength." The stronger an organism is, the better chance it has to survive.

When ROBBY said, "EVERY organism -- is struggling for life against every other organism," I immediately thought of cancer cells. I think there is no good or bad in nature, just strong and weak.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 27, 2006 - 06:13 am
Some intriguing thoughts there, Eloise. Makes one wonder.

As for improvement meaning "strength," Mal, there are varying meanings of strength. Doesn't the strongest buck with the largest antlers often lose because they tangle him up? What did you have in mind?

Robby

Scrawler
March 27, 2006 - 11:44 am
I doubt that "nature" does her selection process the same we would do it. I don't see her as being judgmental, but rather she spreads her seeds in balance and harmony. This I think is what Darwin means by struggle - the struggle not only to bear offspring, but also to be in harmony and balance with the rest of nature.

Malryn
March 27, 2006 - 02:01 pm

Change "strength" to "fittest," most able to resist attack in this fight for survival.

Annie Dillard describes it very well in her book, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek. Until I read this book I had always had a romantic view of nature. I don't think romance, or even a drive for perfection, have anything to do with nature.

Mal

JoanK
March 27, 2006 - 04:03 pm
Words like "perfection" and "fittest" mislead us here, because they are value judgments. At worst, they lead us to think of nature as "judging" individuals, i.e. having a moral sense. All of this is a distortion of the idea. Individuals "survive in two ways: they live long enough to have offspring, and they have offspring, so their genes continue. It has nothing to do with "perfection" in any moral sense. (If it did, we would have to call the cockroach the most "Perfect" animal, since it has survived the longest, and most prolifically). "Fitness" may or may not involve strength.

Further, the very characteristics that aid survival in one situation, may bring extinction when the situation changes. Things I have read talk about the generalist and the specialist. There is a tendency for life to become more and more perfectly adapted to their environments. They flourish, often in great numbers, as long as the environment remains the same. But if it changes, they may die out. The animals (and plants?) that have survived the longest (like the cockroach) are the generalists, who may be only roughly suited to any one environment, but can survive (even if marginally) in many.

The other contradiction, I've already mentioned. Sometimes the two requirements of staying alive and bearing offspring work against each other, as with the peacock, where the cock who will attract the most mates is least likely to survive, because of his huge tail.

In other cases, an animal which is perfectly "fit" may be wiped out by a freak accident.

None of this has (or should have) anything to do with our moral sense of "perfection" or "fitness". Thinking this way can be very dangerous. It has been used in the past to justify "whatever is, is right". If people A slaughter or oppress people B, they must be fitter, therefore they should do so. It's not important if they create a society of complete misery, the fact that they have survived proves they "deserve to do so". Surely, our moral sense teaches us there are "better" ways. Whether the better ways "survive" longer, it's too early to tell.

robert b. iadeluca
March 27, 2006 - 08:16 pm
So what do you think, Joan? Are humans generalists or specialists? Can we survive in many environments?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 27, 2006 - 08:25 pm
"In the case of methodical selection, a breeder selects for some definite object, and if the individuals be allowed freely to intercross, his work will completely fail.

"But when many men, without intending to alter the breed, have a nearly common standard of perfection -- and all try to procure and breed from the best animals -- improvement surely but slowly follows from this unconscious process of selection -- notwithstanding that there is no separation of selected individuals.

"Thus it will be under nature. Within a confined area -- with some place in the natural polity not perfectly occupied -- all the individuals varying in the right direction, though in different degrees, will tend to be preserved.

"But if the area be large, its several districts will almost certainly present different conditions of life. Then, if the same species undergoes modification in different districts, the newly-formed varieties will intercross on the confines of each.

"But we shall see in the sixth chapter that intermediate varieties, inhabiting intermediate districts, will in the long run generally be supplanted by one of the adjoining varieties. Intercrossing will chiefly affect those animals which unite for each birth and wander much, and which do not breed at a very quick rate.

"Hence with animals of this nature -- for instance, birds -- varieties will generally be confined to separated countries. This I find to be the case.

"With hermaphrodite organisms which cross only occasionally -- and likewise with animals which unite for each birth, but which wander little and can increase at a rapid rate -- a new and improved variety might be quickly formed on any one spot, and might there maintain itself in a body and afterwards spread, so that the individuals of the new variety would chiefly cross together.

"On this principle, nurserymen always prefer saving seed from a large body of plants, as the chance of intercrossing is thus lessened."

I think I need some help here. How do you people "translate" this?

Robby

Mallylee
March 28, 2006 - 03:08 am
all try to procure and breed from the best animals -- improvement surely but slowly follows from this unconscious process of selection -- notwithstanding that there is no separation of selected individuals.

I imagine that from ancient times farmers have kept only selected bulls and stallions for breeding. Poor males would be killed.In local areas farmers would prefer certain characteristics such as the heavy horses with no extra hair around their feet in heavy clay districts,Suffolk Punch horses who are very muscular. But the farmers would not consciously breed for the chestnut colour I suppose or other unimportant features of the breed.

This is just one example, and there are lots of other examples among local cattle breeds and local horse breeds where certain features are consciously selected for, but the totality of features that eventually make it a breed apart, include features that are a matter of fashion trend, such as colour. Having said all this, even animals' colours are important in breeding; it may be superstition, or aesthetic preference, so eventually when the local preferences are becoming a recognisable breed. even minor considerations such as colour may be 'consciously' selected. This is surely a matter of history, and I bet there is histroical evidence for how breeds become established

As for natural selection. Darwin mentioned 'different conditions of life'( second paragraph I think).So local environment will affect the development of the variety. However, where one environment merges into another, there will be cross breeds, and there will be cross breeds where animals roam from one area to another, although there will be less cross breeding among within species that have a slow rate of reproduction. Birds, for instance breed when the weather and climate is right for breeding, and this limits the breeding preiods for migratory and native birds.

I suppose the last para about nurserymen saving a lot of seeds is that some seeds will turn out to be unwanted crosses, and the plants have to be destroyed.

robert b. iadeluca
March 28, 2006 - 04:24 am
Mallylee, thank you for that well-thought out posting. I imagine that your countryman, Darwin, would have been proud of you.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 28, 2006 - 04:34 am
"Even with animals which unite for each birth, and which do not propagate rapidly, we must not assume that free intercrossing would always eliminate the effects of natural selection.

"I can bring forward a considerable body of facts showing that within the same area, two varieties of the same animal may long remain distinct -- from haunting different stations -- from breeding at slightly different seasons -- or from the individuals of each variety preferring to pair together."

Another example of the environment affecting breeding -- different locations or different times of the year. I am interested, however, in their having "preferences" as to their mate. Are we anthropomorphizing (what a word!) here or are we agreeing that Nature is completely without emotion and what we call preference has a very scientific reason?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 28, 2006 - 05:02 am
I thought you folks might find THIS of interest.

Robby

Malryn
March 28, 2006 - 07:32 am

The class of Carl Linnaeus

Mallylee
March 28, 2006 - 11:44 am
Presumably longevity in tortoises is an adaptation due to natural selection, or partly due to geographical isolation from tortoises that live longer or shorter lives.

Human beings dont breed according to natural selection, because human cultures alter human breeding habits. I think this agrees with what Joan was saying.

It's possible that the more powerful human males are able to secure the prettiest women, so higher social classes may be more handsome (:

Scrawler
March 28, 2006 - 12:23 pm
Emotion, to me, refers to a human feeling. I doubt serious that it means the same thing in Nature. I believe other things are more attractive to plants or animals - such as smell.

Bubble
March 28, 2006 - 02:28 pm
Selection?

zapped fruit flies

Mallylee
March 29, 2006 - 02:57 am
I enjoyed reading about the sterile fruit flies campaign because this is a pesticide with no bad side effects on humans or on the environment. The co-operation between Guatemala and USA too

robert b. iadeluca
March 29, 2006 - 04:28 am
"Intercrossing plays a very important part in nature by keeping the individuals of the same species, or of the same variety, true and uniform in character.

"It will obviously thus act far more efficiently with those animals which unite for each birth. But, as already stated, we have reason to believe that occasional intercrosses take place with all animals and plants.

"Even if these take place only at long intervals of time -- the young thus produced will gain so much in vigour and fertility over the offspring from long-continued self-fertilisation, that they will have a better chance of surviving and propagating their kind. Thus in the long run the influence of crosses, even at rare intervals, will be great.

"With respect to organic beings extremely low in the scale -- which do not propagate sexually, nor conjugate, and which cannot possibly intercross -- uniformity of character can be retained by them under the same conditions of life, only through the principle of inheritance, and through natural selection which will destroy any individuals departing from the proper type.

"If the conditions of life change and the form undergoes modification, uniformity of character can be given to the modified offspring, solely by natural selection preserving similar favourable variations."

There's something here I don't understand. Darwin says that intercrossing keeps the individuals true and uniform in character. But I would think that sexual activity within the same plant would do the same -- that there is no outside interference. Any thoughts here?

In any event he goes on to say that intercrossing takes place with ALL animals and plants. Offspring from self-fertilization do not produce offspring as vigorous and fertile as those from intercrossing, he says. Those offspring from intercrossing therefore have a better chance of surviving and reproducing.

Those organisms low on the scale (I would imagine he is thinking perhaps of worms) which are hemaphroditic, they keep their vigor and individuality through the "principle of inheritance" (whatever that is) and through Natural Selection which destroys those organisms which are not true to form.

If the environment changes, Darwin says, and this modifies the organism, then Natural Selection protects those with the greatest ability to survive and reproduce.

Please help me with this paragraph, people.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 29, 2006 - 05:21 am
Here is an example where the ENVIRONMENT (COLD & DAMP SPRING) affected the survival of an organism.

Robby

Bubble
March 29, 2006 - 06:04 am
"There's something here I don't understand. Darwin says that intercrossing keeps the individuals true and uniform in character. But I would think that sexual activity within the same plant would do the same -- that there is no outside interference. Any thoughts here?"

I can envision that repeated crossings within the same plant could cause weakening because by "interbreeding" in case of a defective gene, or a sickness. The variety of material provided by crossbreeding would revitalize the plant's genetic material.

Malryn
March 29, 2006 - 06:42 am

Scroll down to see a diagram of the self-fertilization of a fern


meiosis (mì-o´sîs) noun
plural meioses (-sêz´)

1. Genetics. The process of cell division in sexually reproducing organisms that reduces the number of chromosomes in reproductive cells, leading to the production of gametes in animals and spores in plants.

mitosis (mì-to´sîs) noun
plural mitoses (-sêz)

Biology. 1. The process in cell division by which the nucleus divides,
typically consisting of four stages, prophase, metaphase,
anaphase, and telophase, and normally resulting in two new
nuclei, each of which contains a complete copy of the parental
chromosomes. Also called karyokinesis.
2. The entire process of cell division including division of
the nucleus and the cytoplasm.


The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation. All rights reserved.

Scrawler
March 29, 2006 - 11:12 am
I know that interbreeding from the same family in humans can cause mental illness, but is it the same for plants or animals?

Mippy
March 29, 2006 - 03:18 pm
Inbreeding among dogs, I've read, can cause weaknesses.
For example, inbred St. Bernards tend to have hip dysplasia and other inbred large
and heavy dogs may have similar skeletal problems; (dysplasia means abnormal
growth in animals of cells, tissues, or organs.)

IMO, mental illness is not measureable in non-human animals.
What does everyone else think?

Robby ~
I cannot follow your latest question about intercrossing in plants.
Many species of food-plants remain stable and productive for hundreds of years without any
so-called crossing being done.

robert b. iadeluca
March 29, 2006 - 06:57 pm
A very complete link, Mal. I had no idea that ferns were so diversified.

Robby

Malryn
March 29, 2006 - 07:39 pm

The first thing we investigated when I was studying botany in college was ferns. Ferns have never looked the same to me since.

Mal

Mallylee
March 30, 2006 - 02:51 am
I think he is referring to crossbred vigour which is the result of ridding the species of weak individuals before they can breed.

This will act to maintain a species or variety that is the most fitted for its environment.

It's interesting that Darwin mentions the difference between natural selection(involving struggle to stay alive in an environment, as applies to asexual reproducers as well as to sexual reproducers); and crossbred vigour as two separate mechanisms for speciation.

Anyway this is what I make of today's bit.

robert b. iadeluca
March 30, 2006 - 04:33 am
"Isolation, also, is an important element in the modification of species through natural selection.

"In a confined or isolated area, if not very large, the organic and inorganic conditions of life will generally be almost uniform. Natural selection will tend to modify all the varying individuals of the same species in the same manner.

"Intercrossing with the inhabitants of the surrounding districts will, also, be thus prevented.

"Moritz Wagner has lately published an interesting essay on this subject, and has shown that the service rendered by isolation in preventing crosses between newly-formed varieties is probably greater even than I supposed. But from reasons already assigned I can by no means agree with this naturalist, that migration and isolation are necessary elements for the formation of new species.

"The importance of isolation is likewise great in preventing, after any physical change in the conditions, such as of climate, elevation of the land, &c., the immigration of better adapted organisms.

"Thus new places in the natural economy of the district will be left open to be filled up by the modification of the old inhabitants.

"Lastly, isolation will give time for a new variety to be improved at a slow rate. This may sometimes be of much importance.

"If, however, an isolated area be very small, either from being surrounded by barriers, or from having very peculiar physical conditions, the total number of the inhabitants will be small. This will retard the production of new species through natural selection, by decreasing the chances of favourable variations arising."

When Darwin talks of a confined or isolated area, I think of a greenhouse where, if it kept under sterile conditions, there is no way for cross breeding. As he says, the conditions of life (environment) will be almost uniform -- same temperature, same controlled light, etc. I believe he is saying that Nature also, in certain areas of the planet, keeps the same temperature or amount of light.

Darwin does not agree with Wagner's contention that isolation is necessary to form a new species. Migration? I'm not sure what they are referring to here.

When talking about larger isolated areas, I think of Australia. Darwin says that isolation prevents better adapted organisms to enter.

I find myself getting a bit confused with paragraph. It's early in the morning. I need to pause and think this over. What are your thoughts, folks?

Robby

Mallylee
March 30, 2006 - 11:29 am
I am thinking about e.g. mountain goats who are adapted to getting their food from places that are inaccessible to most other animals. The mountain habitat is in effect an area contained by the steep and rocky terrain. Because the mountain goats can get their food relatively easily from steep mountain sides, they have little need to forage on flatter land where other varieties(?species) of goats live.

The goats that can't climb mountains to eat their greenery won't do so, and so the mountain variety of goat stays pure bred.

I gather that Darwin is saying that although adaptation to isolated habitat, and migration, may be suffficient conditions for forming a new species, they are not necessary conditions. Changes in the environment that animals find themselves in, will work towards modifications to fit that specific change. E.g. if the predatory snow leopard is hunted to extinction in the habitat of mountain goats, the goats may become less nervy by nature, and respond more slowly to certain sensory stimuli.

Howeve, any modification will be slower to arrive, in proportion as the breeding population is smaller.

robert b. iadeluca
March 30, 2006 - 07:00 pm
"The mere lapse of time by itself does nothing, either for or against natural selection.

"I state this because it has been erroneously asserted that the element of time has been assumed by me to play an all-important part in modifying species, as if all the forms of life were necessarily undergoing change through some innate law.

"Lapse of time is only so far important -- and its importance in this respect is great -- that it gives a better chance of beneficial variations arising and of their being selected, accumulated, and fixed.

"It likewise tends to increase the direct action of the physical conditions of life, in relation to the constitution of each organism."

This paragraph speaks for itself.

Robby

Bubble
March 31, 2006 - 02:19 am
How meticulous can Darwin be in his analyze, and very articulate too(in the English of his epoch of course)!

robert b. iadeluca
March 31, 2006 - 06:09 am
Darwin says: "Lapse of time is only so far important -- and its importance in this respect is great -- that it gives a better chance of beneficial variations arising and of their being selected, accumulated, and fixed."

When Darwin speaks here of time I assume he is taking the LONG LONG view -- centuries, millennia, and even more.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 31, 2006 - 06:15 am
"If we turn to nature to test the truth of these remarks -- and look at any small isolated area, such as an oceanic island -- although the number of species inhabiting it is small, as we shall see in our chapter on Geographical Distribution -- yet of these species a very large proportion are endemic,- that is, have been produced there and nowhere else in the world.

"Hence an oceanic island at first sight seems to have been highly favourable for the production of new species.

"But we may thus deceive ourselves. To ascertain whether small isolated area, or a large open area like a continent has been most favourable for the production of new organic forms, we ought to make the comparison within equal times. This we are incapable of doing."

I don't see what he is getting at here. What about Australia?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 1, 2006 - 03:35 pm
"Although isolation is of great importance in the production of new species, on the whole I am inclined to believe that largeness of area is still more important -- especially for the production of species which shall prove capable of enduring for a long period, and of spreading widely.

"Throughout a great and open area, not only will there be a better chance of favourable variations, arising from the large number of individuals of the same species there supported -- but the conditions of life are much more complex from the large number of already existing species.

"If some of these many species become modified and improved, others will have to be improved in a corresponding degree, or they will be exterminated.

"Each new form, also, as soon as it has been much improved, will be able to spread over the open and continuous area, and will thus come into competition with many other forms.

"Moreover, great areas, though now continuous, will often, owing to former oscillations of level, have existed in a broken condition.

"The good effects of isolation will generally, to a certain extent, have concurred.

"Finally, I conclude that, although small isolated areas have been in some respects highly favourable for the production of new species, yet that the course of modification will generally have been more rapid on large areas. What is more important, that the new forms produced on large areas -- which already have been victorious over many competitors -- will be those that will spread most widely, and will give rise to the greatest number of new varieties and species.

"They will thus play a more important part in the changing history of the organic world."

As I understand it, a larger area is more conducive to producing species which can endure and spread. In a large and open area, Darwin says, there are a greater number of individuals of the same species and therefore a greater opportunity for individuals to vary.

If some species become improved, he says, others had just better improve of they will not survive. Again, it's the story of survival through competition.

Darwin concludes that organisms modify faster in large open areas and new varieties and species will come into existence.

Your comments, please?

Robby

Mallylee
April 2, 2006 - 01:14 am
Please let me know what you think Darwin means by a 'geographical area'. Sometimes he seems to mean a small ocean island, and bearing in mind his experiences in the Galapagos, I feel that he does mean a small ocean island.

But shores are not the only boundaries of geographical areas. For mountain goats and snow leopards, the area delineated by cold high mountains are their habitat.

These queer creatures that can live only beside undersea volcanic vents are confined.

Otherwise I understand the point Darwin makes that where the habitat presents challenges to creatures' survival the challenges themselves are part of the engine for evolution of a species.

Darwin says' a large and open area' and 'many individuals of the same species' are spurs to the species' evolving. But it is entirely possible to have a large and open area with few individuals, and conversely, a small enclosed area with many individuals of the same species.

I think Darwin's concluding paragraph answers your ? about Australia, Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 2, 2006 - 06:20 am

I think that by "geographical area" Darwin means something as small as a garden and as large as a continent.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 2, 2006 - 06:33 am
"In accordance with this view, we can, perhaps, understand some facts which will be again alluded to in our chapter on Geographical Distribution.

"For instance, the fact of the productions of the smaller continent of Australia now yielding before those of the larger Europaeo-Asiatic area.

"Thus, also, it is that continental productions have everywhere become so largely naturalised on islands.

"On a small island, the race for life will have been less severe, and there will have been less modification and less extermination. Hence, we can understand how it is that the flora of Madeira, according to Oswald Heer, resembles to a certain extent the extinct tertiary flora of Europe.

"All fresh-water basins, taken together, make a small area compared with that of the sea or of the land. Consequently, the competition between fresh-water productions will have been less severe than elsewhere. New forms will have been then more slowly produced, and old forms more slowly exterminated.

"And it is in fresh-water basins that we find seven genera of Ganoid fishes, remnants of a once preponderant order. In fresh water we find some of the most anomalous forms now known in the world as the Ornithorhynchus and Lepidosiren which, like fossils, connect to a certain extent orders at present widely sundered in the natural scale.

"These anomalous forms may be called living fossils. They have endured to the present day, from having inhabited a confined area, and from having been exposed to less varied, and therefore less severe, competition."

This paragraph seems to follow Darwin's constant referral to the "race for life."

He points out that smaller geographical areas (Australia) give up in the race for life to larger geographical areas (Asia.)

If the area is big (Asia) the race is severe. If the area is small (a small island) the race is more gentle and there is less modifying and less death. But nevertheless, the race continues.

Darwin compares all the fresh water rivers, lakes, etc. in the world with the salt water oceans and the large land masses. The fresh water areas total up to be small in comparison. Therefore the struggle for life is less severe and modifications and deaths in fresh water areas are slower. We find there, he says, organisms which seem to have lived for eons.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 2, 2006 - 07:33 am
Can we of a particular species think through the eyes of ANOTHER SPECIES?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 3, 2006 - 04:15 am
"TO SUM UP -- as far as the extreme intricacy of the subject permits -- the circumstances favourable and unfavourable for the reduction of new species through natural selection.

"I conclude that for terrestrial productions a large continental area -- which has undergone many oscillations of level -- will have been the most favourable for the production of many new forms of life -- fitted to endure for a long time and to spread widely.

"Whilst the area existed as a continent, the inhabitants will have been numerous in individuals and kinds, and will have been subjected to severe competition.

"When converted by subsidence into large separate islands, there will still have existed many individuals of the same species on each island. Intercrossing on the confines of the range of each new species will have been checked. After physical changes of any kind, immigration will have been prevented, so that new places in the polity of each island will have had to be filled up by the modification of the old inhabitants.

"Time will have been allowed for the varieties in each to become well modified and perfected.

"When, by renewed elevation, the islands were reconverted into a continental area, there will again have been very severe competition. The most favoured or improved varieties will have been enabled to spread. There will have been much extinction of the less improved forms.

"The relative proportional numbers of the various inhabitants of the reunited continent will again have been changed. Again there will have been a fair field for natural selection to improve still further the inhabitants, and thus to produce new species."

If I get this, Darwin is bringing geology into the picture. He is saying that the shifts of the continents over the millennia have an effect on the organisms living in them.

When there is a large continent, he says, the situation is wonderful for producing new forms of life -- that because the environment on this continent fairly stable, that these new forms of organisms spread widely and last for eons. They were interbreeding but at the same time, they were competing with each other for their very life.

The continent may at some time been broken up into many small islands. Each island, of course, would have had the same organism as the other islands because they were all previously a part of the large continent.

But now interbreeding which originally could have taken place on a large continent was now impossible with the areas of water between the islands. As Darwin put it, "immigration would have been prevented." Where new areas would have been in the past filled up with the "immigration" of new organisms, now modifications of those organims present filled up these areas.

Again eons pass and these modifications become more "perfect."

If, through some geolotical upheaval, these islands all became again the part of a larger land mass, then competition again took place and the newer modifications of each of the former islands fought for life against the modifications that had taken place on the other islands. Those modifications which had not been improved sufficiently, died.

Due to the geological changes, the relative amount of organisms to others had also been changed.

How does this sound, folks? Make sense?

Robby

Bubble
April 3, 2006 - 05:08 am
"There will have been much extinction of the less improved forms."

It does make sense, yes. I wonder if it is how Darwin explains the dinosaurs extinction for example. Maybe he gives examples later on... It certainly explain the specific fauna and flora to certain big islands isolated from the mainland.

JoanK
April 3, 2006 - 10:37 am
"Please let me know what you think Darwin means by a 'geographical area" -- Shores are not the only barriers.

There is a good example of this in the US. The Rocky mountains are a barrier that many birds don't cross. Hence, in California, many birds have developed that are obviously close relatives of Eastern species, but wit variations. This presents a problem for classifiers, as I may have mentioned before. By definition, they are separate species if they don't interbreed in the wild But how do you know if they would, if they ever met? The practice seems to be to call them different species. Sometimes a valley is found where both groups exist. Then if they interbreed, the classification is changed.

The differences in these birds can be quite small -- a red spot instead of a black one, for example. I wonder what the ancestor bird looked like, and how either red spot took over in the West or black spot in the East.

Scrawler
April 3, 2006 - 11:50 am
I can see where the "land bridge" between Asia and Alaska when it melted would leave some of the same species stranded in one place or the other. Both species would have to fend for themselves or become extinct and depending on the their situation might develop into entirely new species. I can't help wonder with our present "global warming" what effect it will have on our changing geology in the future.

robert b. iadeluca
April 3, 2006 - 05:04 pm
You people are coming up with some great examples. Good thinking going on in this discussion!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 3, 2006 - 05:25 pm
"That natural selection generally acts with extreme slowness I fully admit.

"It can act only when there are places in the natural polity of a district which can be better occupied by the modification of some of its existing inhabitants. The occurrence of such places will often depend on physical changes -- which generally take place very slowly -- and on the immigration of better adapted forms being prevented.

"As some few of the old inhabitants become modified, the mutual relations of others will often be disturbed. This will create new places, ready to be filled up by better adapted forms, but all this will take place very slowly.

"Although the individuals of the same species differ in some slight degree from each other, it would often be long before differences of the right nature in various parts of the organisation might occur. The result would often be greatly retarded by free intercrossing.

"Many will exclaim that these several causes are amply sufficient to neutralise the power of natural selection. I do not believe so. But I do believe that natural selection will generally act very slowly -- only at long intervals of time, and only on a few of the inhabitants of the same region. I further believe that these slow, intermittent results accord well with what geology tells us of the rate and manner at which the inhabitants of the world have changed."

Darwin is quite clear here. He emphasizes the slowness of Natural Selection. And I guess we all realize that when he says "slow," he means SL-O-O-OW!!

Robby

Malryn
April 4, 2006 - 07:07 am


What but the wolf's tooth whittled so fine
The fleet limbs of the antelope?
What but fear winged the birds, and hunger
Jeweled with such eyes the great gos hawk's head?

~Robinson Jeffers
"The Bloody Sire"



More about evolution

Mallylee
April 4, 2006 - 09:14 am
That says it all Malryn. And says it with feeling and dare I say? spirituality, to attempt an indefinable word.

I read the article you linked, and I have only one query about it: have scientists in fact caught evolution by natural selection actually happening ('in flagrante') in labs, when pathogenic micro-organisms are being 'attenuated' for the purpose of turning them into vaccines to make human recipients make their own antibodies?

If attenuating a strain of microbes ina lab is not nat selection in action, I really dont see why not. True, the microbes are rendered less fit to reproduce in the big bad world, as opposed to more fit to have strong babies, but is attenuation not a nat. selection effect too?

I have feeling I may have made a logical error but I cannot think what it may be.

robert b. iadeluca
April 4, 2006 - 03:30 pm
My God, where have I been for the past 85 years? I never heard of Robinson Jeffers, Mal, and of course never read "The Bloody Sire." I am completely thrown for a loop. I printed it out and have been reading it aloud over and over again. It is a poem which requires oral presentation. And in just those few words he translates Darwin's remarks. Thank you for that link. I have a hunch I will be reading more of his works.

In your link, Mal, David Barash says:

"We owe a great deal — indeed, literally everything — to evolution, and yet never have so many said and written so much about something they understood so poorly."

And that, very simply, is why I brought this discussion group into existence. And I am so thankful that many of you keep its lifeblood flowing.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 4, 2006 - 08:07 pm
I recommend strongly that everyone here click onto Mal's link in Post 332, "More about evolution," in which David Barash speaks for the case for evolution "in real life." I have read his article completely and am much impressed. You may or may not agree with some of his suppositions but it certainly will stimulate your thinking and, in my case, helped me to better understand what Darwin has been telling us.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 5, 2006 - 05:29 pm
"Slow though the process of selection may be, if feeble man can do much by artificial selection, I can see no limit to the amount of change, to the beauty and complexity of the coadaptations between all organic beings, one with another and with their physical conditions of life, which may have been effected in the long course of time through nature's power of selection, that is by the survival of the fittest."

This final paragraph in this section speaks for itself."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 5, 2006 - 05:31 pm
Extinction caused by Natural Selection

robert b. iadeluca
April 5, 2006 - 05:43 pm
"This subject will he more fully discussed in our chapter on Geology. But it must here be alluded to from being intimately connected with natural selection.

"Natural selection acts solely through the preservation of variations in some way advantageous, which consequently endure.

"Owing to the high geometrical rate of increase of all organic beings, each area is already fully stocked with inhabitants. It follows from this, that as the favoured forms increase in number, so, generally, will the less favoured decrease and become rare.

"Rarity, as geology tells us, is the precursor to extinction. We can see that any form which is represented by few individuals will run a good chance of utter extinction -- during great fluctuations in the nature of the seasons -- or from a temporary increase in the number of its enemies.

"But we may go further than this. As new forms are produced, unless we admit that specific forms can go on indefinitely increasing in number, many old forms must become extinct. That the number of specific forms has not indefinitely increased, geology plainly tells us. We shall presently attempt to show why it is that the number of species throughout the world has not become immeasurably great."

Again, as I follow this, Nature makes it a point to "select" changes which are beneficial to the organism. These "stronger" organisms, therefore, last longer and multiply, at the same time "forcing out" the weaker ones which become rare.

Rarity, Darwin (or what he has learned from geology) tells us leads to death -- death, that is, of the species.

This makes me think of the constant effort around the world to "save" those species (pandas? spotted owl? elephants?) which are rare. But what I am seeing here is sort of a battle between evolution and Man. Evolution wants to go on its merry way creating and destroying species and we have suddently come to believe that we are in charge.

Robby

Bubble
April 6, 2006 - 12:31 am
I thought that mostly we were trying to save those species that we ourselves have caused to be on the endangered survival list.

We are still discovering new forms of life, new species in far away places that were not yet properly mapped. Maybe some species went into hidding, away from humans. Hard to do when you are an elephant...

Mallylee
April 6, 2006 - 01:49 am
Bubble I agree. We have damaged many species' chance of surviving. The orang utans are at risk from our theft of their habitat, as we grow palm oil trees , for commercial bakeries, I seem to remember.

I'm struggling to think of any precedent I may have heard of, for the scale and extent of our predation. We destroy indiscriminately, unlike, for instance, Dutch elm disease that has killed only English elms.We are worse than the black death ,the bubonic plague which killed only human beings;weren't the black rats and their fleas immune to the plague? But what species is immune to the destructive power of humans?

Cockroaches and viruses maybe.

That's why I think that we have to actively conserve species that are at risk from our own activities, because natural selection wont make up for the natural disaster that is humanity

Mallylee
April 6, 2006 - 02:32 am
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1747926,00.html

robert b. iadeluca
April 6, 2006 - 03:46 am
Why is it necessary that any species continue to exist? Why does the species known as orang-utan have to continue to exist? Why must we continue to exist? Should we bring back dinasaurs? Or do we bring back or save only those species toward which we have a warm feeling? Nature just does what Nature has been continuously doing for eons. There is no good. No bad. There just IS.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
April 6, 2006 - 04:03 am
Robby, exactly. There used to be different kinds of animals no longer in existence, others have gone through mutations to adapt to a different environment. Pollution is not something new, or is it? our short life span is only a fraction of a second against in the life span of the earth. What will life on earth be 10 millions years from now. perhaps another form of humans will inhabit it, one that is able to sustain massive doses of radiation. Science is on the verge of discovering that other planets of our solar system has already been inhabited and are now dead.

Humans will not be able to save species in the process of extinction, it will only alter nature's delicate balance to suit it's own little selfish purpose for a while. Then nature will repossess it's territory perhaps in a massive sweep of a new form of plague to reestablish the balance necessary for the earth to survive.

Éloïse

robert b. iadeluca
April 6, 2006 - 04:06 am
Are plagues bad? Is AIDS bad? Is the bird flu bad? Is small pox bad? Are earthquakes bad? Are tsunamis bad? Are wars bad? Is murder bad?

Are we good?

Robby

Bubble
April 6, 2006 - 04:12 am
Actually, IMO you are right, Robby. It is just that we have such a high opinion of ourselves which making us believe we should continue endlessly, we and our "moral code" or whatever it is that pushes us to interfere. "Warm feelings" are based on our perceptions and they could be terribly faulty because we can't see an ant's perspective or if a mould has an intellect of its own... Many times we can't understand our own kind.

We too ARE and we think we are superior. Therefore we take the right to save the variety of species that are around us at present time.

Scrawler
April 6, 2006 - 10:18 am
I keep going back to my example of the "sea lions feasting on salmon in the Pacific Northwest." [Incidently, it is still sea lions (1) and engineers (0).] The sea lions are devouring tons of fish on a daily basis which has already endangered the fishermen in this area. Many have left our coast waters and moved south. How far can this domino effect continue before the towns and cities on the coast become ghost towns and there are nothing left but Big Fat Lazy sea lions laying about?

Bubble
April 6, 2006 - 10:30 am
Sea lions are lazy? Not more than apes or cats... they just lead their normal life. Humans have other sources of food while I am not sure sea lions do, but I own that I don't much about them. Can't their lazying around be turned into a touristic attraction? Men have much imagination or call it alternatives to turn situations to his own profit.

Mallylee
April 6, 2006 - 12:34 pm
Why save orang utans? And other likeable creatures? Because we have a fellow feeling for them.They are sentient, like us. Many of them are intelligent like us-to some extent.

They are beautiful.

They are close relatives, gene-wise, some more than others.

Because they may have part to play in prolonging diversity of species.

Monocultures are possibly bad for life on Earth? If we become a monoculture we will probably die of our isolation from others who are like us, and that are unlike us in minor ways.

Viruses and bacteria and cockroaches have lives to live too. But it's a matter of fact that we are a dominant species, top predators, and have a natural right to try to stay at the top, because like every other species ,we are programmed to maintain ourselves in our own ecological niche.

There is no way to escape from natural evil such as predation and struggle for existence, however we are a rational and sympathetic species , and we can mitigate quite a lot of suffering if we have the will to do so.

Mallylee
April 6, 2006 - 12:41 pm
Bubbles wrote "Warm feelings" are based on our perceptions and they could be terribly faulty because we can't see an ant's perspective or if a mould has an intellect of its own...

So if we are going to talk moral philosophy, is one of the first questions 'What is human nature?' ?

I believe we are social animals, who live in societies that are prolonged by transmissible cultures. The traits that enable us to be social animals are rationality and sympathy. I understand from Damasio that we have brain structures that support these two traits.

robert b. iadeluca
April 6, 2006 - 08:15 pm
Before we get too far afield, let us continue on with Darwin's own words.

"We have seen that the species which are most numerous in individuals have the best chance of producing favourable variations within any given period.

"We have evidence of this, in the facts stated in the second chapter showing that it is the common and diffused or dominant species which offer the greatest number of recorded varieties.

"Hence, rare species will be less quickly modified or improved within any given period; they will consequently be beaten in the race for life by the modified and improved descendants of the commoner species."

So the more individuals within a species, the greater the number of favorable variations. Where there are not that many varieties, they die. Right?

Robby

Bubble
April 7, 2006 - 12:20 am
Scientists have discovered fossils of a 375-million-year-old fish, a large scaly creature not seen before, that they say is a long-sought missing link in the evolution of some fishes from water to a life walking on four limbs on land.

Missing Link

Bubble
April 7, 2006 - 01:41 am
Interesting article about diversity and evolution

Plants helped ants evolve

robert b. iadeluca
April 7, 2006 - 05:04 am
Excellent links, Bubble.

Any comments from anyone here on Post 350?

Robby

Mippy
April 8, 2006 - 01:36 pm
Post 350 included: We have seen that the species which are most numerous in individuals have the best chance of producing favorable variations within any given period.

This may not strictly conform to the rules of probability.
The species which are the most numerous might have the highest probability of having any kind of variation, positive or negative or neutral.

As an example, variations might be neutral, with respect to survival, but might be observed by another (neutral) species.
For instance, a butterfly could have individuals with different wing patterns. A person, as a neutral observer, could draw or photograph this interesting variation. Other butterflies might ignore it.
The flip-side, of course, is other butterflies could (+) love it or they could (-) dislike the new pattern.
The (+) or the (-) variation might affect whether that individual butterfly finds a mate.

IMO, there is an equal probability of (+) or (-) or neutral.
Over time, the (-) ones would, of course, have a lower chance of survival.

What does everyone else think?

Robby: Sorry to be here so seldom ... slammed by volunteer work as well as Latin this past week!

Mallylee
April 8, 2006 - 02:22 pm
I thought that if a species has many individuals in it, there would be more mutations.

If the habitat changed equally adversely for the species with many individuals with mutations, as for a species with many fewer mutated individuals,the species with many mutated individuals would have a better chance of producing viable ancestral material

robert b. iadeluca
April 9, 2006 - 08:52 am
"From these several considerations I think it inevitably follows -- that as new species in the course of time are formed through natural selection -- others will become rarer and rarer, and finally extinct.

"The forms which stand in closest competition with those undergoing modification and improvement will naturally suffer most.

"And we have seen in the chapter on the Struggle for Existence that it is the most closely-allied forms -- varieties of the same species, and species of the same genus or of related genera -- which, from having nearly the same structure, constitution, and habits, generally come into the severest competition with each other.

"Consequently, each new variety or species, during the progress of its formation, will generally press hardest on its nearest kindred -- and tend to exterminate them.

"We see the same process of extermination amongst our domesticated productions, through the selection of improved forms by man. Many curious instances could be given showing how quickly new breeds of cattle, sheep, and other animals, and varieties of flowers, take the place of older and inferior kinds.

"In Yorkshire, it is historically known that the ancient black cattle were displaced by the long-horns, and that these "were swept away by the shorthorns" (I quote the words of an agricultural writer) "as if by some murderous pestilence."

Darwin is now telling us, I believe, that the creation of new species force the older species into becoming more rare or even becoming extinct. And such extinction, he says, happens to those species which find themselves close in structure and habits to the stronger ones which are improving.

The most severe competition (struggle for life) takes place between species which are closest to each other. As I read this, I ask myself, are humans struggling the most against other humans in this world or is our struggle primarily against birds or lizards. Many of us of the human species appear to be doing our best to exterminate other humans.

Robby

Scrawler
April 9, 2006 - 09:32 am
Humans are supposed to be "thinking" species. So who puts those thoughts of "exterminating" our own species into our brains? I doubt that the birds and animals go through the same thought process. If it is the survival of the fittest, what constitutes the fittest?

robert b. iadeluca
April 9, 2006 - 09:38 am
Scrawler:-Are we trying to exterminate our species or to exterminate those other members of our species which are not exactly like us?

Robby

Mallylee
April 9, 2006 - 09:58 am
So a human variety that had evolved enough to invent metal tools, and to tame animals, and to tend food plants, would oust another human variety that had not the mind-power to adapt to how the natural environment could be better exploited

robert b. iadeluca
April 9, 2006 - 10:06 am
From the point of view of Nature which knows nothing about human beliefs or points of view, which members of the human species are more "fit"? Which ones are "improved"?

I know that Darwin is speaking about plants and animals but we are ever ever so gradually moving in our thoughts toward the "higher animal," aren't we?

Robby

Mallylee
April 10, 2006 - 01:08 am
It's a controversial area, trying to predict which heritable traits in a wild species such as humans, are going to become ancestors.

True, mutability in viruses seems to be their winning trait.

The very word 'winning' implies competition among individuals and between varieties and species, for survival. But under the rules of competition there can be mutual help against common enemies . So any wild animals will gang up in some way against a common enemy.I am thinking about the stallion of a wild horse herd who gathers his mares into a group and fights off both sexual competitors and predators.

Also, there are swarms of bees that will attack when the queen is threatened, and this aggression is a survival mechanism of bees.

Humans are able to predict on the basis of the patterns that they perceive in courses of events: this is humans' defining trait, although they share it to some extent with other animals with good-sized brains. This ability to predict allows humans to be political animals, and to protect their social groups by internal and foreign strategies.

It's not necessary to believe in any religious dictum to understand that lack of understanding of outsiders is not a winning trait in those human individuals who fail to understand that human foreigners have to be included, not excluded. Human evolution has arrived at a high in human brain size, and now the survival need is co-operation between cultural varieties.

robert b. iadeluca
April 10, 2006 - 03:48 am
Divergence of Character

robert b. iadeluca
April 10, 2006 - 04:05 am
"The principle, which I have designated by this term, is of high importance, and explains, as I believe, several important facts.

"In the first place, varieties, even strongly-marked ones, though having somewhat of the character of species -- as is shown by the hopeless doubts in many cases how to rank them -- yet certainly differ far less from each other than do good and distinct species.

"Nevertheless, according to my view, varieties are species in the process of formation -- or are, as I have called them, incipient species.

"How, then, does the lesser difference between varieties become augmented into the greater difference between species? That this does habitually happen, we must infer from most of the innumerable species throughout nature presenting well-marked differences.

"Whereas varieties, the supposed prototypes and parents of future well-marked species, present slight and ill-defined differences. Mere chance, as we may call it, might cause one variety to differ in some character from its parents -- and the offspring of this variety again to differ from its parent in the very same character and in a greater degree.

"But this alone would never account for so habitual and large a degree of difference as that between the species of the same genus."

This entire paragraph is a question, so to speak. Darwin wonders and starts off by pointing out that varieties differ less from each other than species differ from each other. At the same time he emphasizes that varieties are "species" in the process of being formed (incipient species).

Now comes his question. How is it that the minor differences between varieties develop into the major differences between species? He observes that this regularly happens. All through nature he sees distinct differences between species. At the same time he observes different varieties and the differences between them are not that marked.

It could just be chance, he says. A "child" could by chance have a different characteristic from its "parent" and this child could have its own child with the same difference only more so.

Darwin is not satisfied with this answer. He sees large differences between species.

Robby

Mippy
April 10, 2006 - 05:03 am
Robby ~
IMHO, introducing the human species into the discussion of this chapter is exactly what you requested
the rest of us not to do!

Darwin would not have discussed human extinction!

What is that expression? all holds barred? whatever?
If you bring up human competition, it tempts me to bring up DNA analysis!
But I won't.

Mallylee
April 10, 2006 - 01:10 pm
Sorry Mippy, I must have forgotten about not introding issies about the human species. Why not, by the way?

Mippy
April 10, 2006 - 02:11 pm
I agree, why not!

robert b. iadeluca
April 10, 2006 - 02:17 pm
You're right. I broke my own suggestion. My concern was that in the excitement of moving on to the evolution of humans that we would tend to drift away from the basics which Darwin is giving us in his first book.

If the temptation is there and if the comments about humans seem to fit into the current paragraph we are reading, let us choose our words carefully.

Robby

Malryn
April 10, 2006 - 03:40 pm

After we finish this book, why don't we go on to Darwin's Descent of Man and talk about human evolution then?

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
April 10, 2006 - 03:44 pm
Yes, Mal. That was my original idea. Beat me over the head and shoulders for even mentioning homo sapiens. Let us go back to the time when Darwin was writing his first book and was still struggling (as are we) to grasp what Nature is doing.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 11, 2006 - 03:53 am
"As has always been my practice, I have sought light on this head from our domestic productions.

"We shall here find something analogous. It will be admitted that the production of races so different as short-horn and Hereford cattle -- race and cart horses -- the several breeds of pigeons, &c. -- could never have been effected by the mere chance accumulation of similar variations during many successive generations.

"In practice, a fancier is, for instance, struck by a pigeon having a slightly shorter beak. Another fancier is struck by a pigeon having a rather longer beak.

"On the acknowledged principle that "fanciers do not and will not admire a medium standard, but like extremes," they both go on (as has actually occurred with the sub-breeds of the tumbler-pigeon) choosing and breeding from birds with longer and longer beaks, or with shorter and shorter beaks.

"Again, we may suppose that at an early period of history, the men of one nation or district required swifter horses, whilst those of another required stronger and bulkier horses. The early differences would be very slight. But, in the course of time from the continued selection of swifter horses in the one case, and of stronger ones in the other, the differences would become greater, and would be noted as forming two sub-breeds.

"Ultimately, after the lapse of centuries, these sub-breeds would become converted into two well-established and distinct breeds. As the differences became greater, the inferior animals with intermediate characters, being neither swift nor very strong, would not have been used for, breeding, and will thus have tended to disappear.

"Here, then, we see in man's productions the action of what may be called the principle of divergence, causing differences, at first barely appreciable, steadily to increase, and the breeds to diverge in character, both from each other and from their common parent."

In trying to understand what Nature does in relation to Divergence, Darwin goes back to examining what plant and animal breeders do. All of us here remember how he made it a point, not only to talk with pigeon fanciers, but to breed pigeons himself.

He found that pigeon breeders, for example, liked to breed extreme traits so as to separate them from other pigeons. These breeders knew what they were doing. Centuries ago, Darwin says, breeders were doing this with horses, choosing either the swifter horses or the stronger horses, depending on the needs of the different tribes. The descendents of these horses were also bred for speed or strength and over a period time became "sub-breeds." Ultimately, after centuries -- or even millennia -- distinct breeds arose. Those horses which were not particularly swift or strong were not used for breeding and ultimately died out.

Darwin defines what happened over this period of time as the Principle of Divergence. The various horses ultimately not only ended up differing from each other but from their common parent.

Robby

Mallylee
April 11, 2006 - 04:33 am
The principle of divergence is so comprehensible when Darwin applies it to domestic breeds, that I wonder if Creatonists have studied the Principle of Divergence with regard to domestic breeds.

Evolution of species is a fact as can be seen from domestic breeds, and Principle of Divergence in domestic breeds includes chance mutations that breeders take advantage of.(e.g.Simple mutation such as short beak in a pigeon)

All that is necessary then, to substitute wild varieties for domestic varieties as regards Darwinian evolution, is to substitute the struggle for survival in the wild for human intervention. Both struggle for survival and breeders are causes of the evolution of varieties.

Domestic:

Random mutation + breeder's preference = establishment of variety

Wild:

Random mutation + struggle for survival = establishment of variety

JoanK
April 11, 2006 - 02:19 pm
Excellent summary, Mallylee.

The question of how different varieties evolve into different species goes back to the earlier discussion: that a difference could be positive, neutral, or negative with respect to survival. I would think that if a difference were perfectly neutral, it might go on for a long time as a rare variety, or disappear with bad luck. The stronger the benefit or disadvantage, the faster the speciation (?) or extinction.

Some thing else interesting could occur I've noted several times in birds, closely related species that flock and feed peaceably together because even though they eat the same food, they have adapted to get it in slightly different ways. For example, I once saw two species of sandpiper feeding together on a beach. They both fed by poking their bill into the sand to get the small creatures that live there. But one species had a longer bill than the other. So it ate the animals that had dug deeper, the other those who were more shallow. They were not competing.

I can imagine a sandpiper born with a slightly longer bill. It would do very well in the flock, since he could reach a new source of food. It could develop into a new species without threatening the parent species.

A similar thing happens with wood warblers: closely related species that migrate together in mixed flocks. They all search the branches of trees for insects, but each has a slightly different method. So many different species can feed on the same tree without competing.

robert b. iadeluca
April 11, 2006 - 07:09 pm
"But how, it may be asked, can any analogous principle apply in nature?

"I believe it can and does apply most efficiently (though it was a long time before I saw how) -- from the simple circumstance that the more diversified the descendants from any one species become in structure, constitution, and habits -- by so much will they be better enabled to seize on many and widely diversified places in the polity of nature, and so be enabled to increase in numbers."

The more diversified species become, the more they are able to use different kinds of environment -- and thereby increase their numbers.

Right?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 12, 2006 - 04:05 am
"We can clearly discern this in the case of animals with simple habits.

"Take the case of a carnivorous quadruped, of which the number that can be supported in any country has long ago arrived at its full average. If its natural power of increase be allowed to act, it can succeed in increasing -- the country not undergoing any change in conditions -- only by its varying descendants seizing on places at present occupied by other animals -- some of them, for instance, being enabled to feed on new kinds of prey, either dead or alive; some inhabiting new stations, climbing trees, frequenting water, and some perhaps becoming less carnivorous.

"The more diversified in habits and structure the descendants of our carnivorous animals become, the more places they will be enabled to occupy.

"What applies to one animal will apply throughout all time to all animals- that is, if they vary- for otherwise natural selection can effect nothing.

"So it will be with plants. It has been experimentally proved, that if a plot of ground be sown with one species of grass, and a similar plot be sown with several distinct genera of grasses, a greater number of plants and a greater weight of dry herbage can be raised in the latter than in the former case. The same has been found to hold good when one variety and several mixed varieties of wheat have been sown on equal spaces of ground.

"Hence, if any one species of grass were to go on varying, and the varieties were continually selected which differed from each other in the same manner -- though in a very slight degree, as do the distinct species and genera of grasses -- a greater number of individual plants of this species, including its modified descendants, would succeed in living on the same piece of ground.

"And we know that each species and each variety of grass is annually sowing almost countless seeds; and is thus striving, as it may be said, to the utmost to increase in number.

"Consequently, in the course of many thousand generations, the most distinct varieties of any one species of grass would have the best chance of succeeding and of increasing in numbers -- thus of supplanting the less distinct varieties.

"Varieties, when rendered very distinct from each other, take the rank of species."

Let me see if I have this correct. If a territory is highly populated with a particular organism this organism can increase only if it intrudes upon other areas with its own organisms.

The descendents of this "intruder" may have to change its habits, e.g. learning to climb trees, eat different kinds of food, etc. And the more these descendants learn to change their habits, the greater territory they will be able to inhabit.

Darwin says this is true for both plants and animals.

He goes on to say that these descendants which continue to change, and therefore thrive, gradually develop into different varieties and that these varieties ultimately become specific species.

Any comments, folks?

Robby

Mallylee
April 12, 2006 - 05:10 am
Like urban foxes and Canadian black bears having learned to raid human habitats for thrown-away human food

Scrawler
April 12, 2006 - 11:39 am
Is Darwin saying that Change is good? That sometimes when a species is forced into a change it will find new ways to survive than if they stayed where they were.

robert b. iadeluca
April 12, 2006 - 05:05 pm
"The truth of the principle that the greatest amount of life can be supported by great diversification of structure, is seen under many natural circumstances.

"In an extremely small area, especially if freely open to immigration -- and where the contest between individual and individual must be very severe -- we always find great diversity in its inhabitants.

"For instance, I found that a piece of turf, three feet by four in size, which had been exposed for many years to exactly the same conditions, supported twenty species of plants. These belonged to eighteen genera and to eight orders, which shows how much these plants differed from each other.

"So it is with the plants and insects on small and uniform islets -- also in small ponds of fresh water.

"Farmers find that they can raise most food by a rotation of plants belonging to the most different orders. Nature follows what may be called a simultaneous rotation. Most of the animals and plants which live close round any small piece of ground, could live on it -- supposing its nature not to be in any way peculiar) -- and may be said to be striving to the utmost to live there. But, it is seen, that where they come into the closest competition, the advantages of diversification of structure, with the accompanying differences of habit and constitution, determine that the inhabitants, which thus jostle each other most closely, shall, as a general rule, belong to what we call different genera and orders."

If I catch this correctly, where different varieties of organisms are pressed up against each other -- small ponds or small lots for example -- and where the struggle for life is therefore great, the inhabitants tend to diversity. In other words, they became different from each other.

Darwin speaks of a rotation of plants which leads to greater harvest. The common term "rotation of crops" refers, I believe, to farmers planting corn one year and then peas on the same land the following year.

He says that Nature does the same thing but I can't understand what he means by this.

Robby

Mallylee
April 12, 2006 - 11:29 pm
I wonder how much Darwin knew about the details of soil chemistry. Animal dung provides for both nitrogen( I think it does) and insect life. Some plants make nitrogen with nodules on their roots, e.g.. clover.I understand that clover does less well on soil that is already well nitrogenated. I once put planted Dutch white clover on new subsoil to make a lawn, and it was a great success

robert b. iadeluca
April 13, 2006 - 03:31 am
How many here are lurking? Speak up, folks. Say "Hello!"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 13, 2006 - 03:39 am
"The same principle is seen in the naturalisation of plants through man's agency in foreign lands.

"It might have been expected that the plants which would succeed in becoming naturalised in any land would generally have been closely allied to the indigenes. These are commonly looked at as specially created and adapted for their own country.

"It might also, perhaps, have been expected that naturalised plants would have belonged to a few groups more especially adapted to certain stations in their new homes.

"But the case is very different.

"Alph. de Candolle has well remarked, in his great and admirable work, that floras gain by naturalisation -- proportionally with the number of the native genera and species -- far more in new genera than in new species.

"To give a single instance. In the last edition of Dr. Asa Gray's Manual of the Flora of the Northern United States, 260 naturalized plants are enumerated, and these belong to 162 genera.

"We thus see that these naturalised plants are of a highly diversified nature. They differ, moreover, to a large extent, from the indigenes, for out of the 162 naturalised genera, no less than 100 genera are not there indigenous.

"Thus a large proportional addition is made to the genera now living in the United States."

Comments?

Robby

Malryn
April 13, 2006 - 06:28 am
I'm here every day.

"Charles' grandfather, Erasmus, a successful and wealthy physician in the 18th century, wrote the book, Zoonomia (Laws of Life), which portrays a pantheistic world in which all life and species evolved. Erasmus' close friend, industrialist Josiah Wedgwood I, embraced Unitarian theology. Erasmus' son and Charles' father, Robert Darwin, also a wealthy physician, probably an atheist, married Susannah Wedgwood. Other marriage ties between the two families followed. Not surprisingly, Darwin males generally were freethinkers, following the Unitarian, pantheistic and atheistic views of their principal sires."


Quoted from an article about Darwin's childhood and education from a creationist point of view


Darwin country. Scroll down to take a look at "The Mount" where he grew up

Malryn
April 13, 2006 - 06:32 am

I am reminded of the fields near the house where I grew up in New England. One year Witch Grass would thrive, and the next there'd be something different to plague the aunt who raised me. She hated "weeds."

Mal

Mippy
April 13, 2006 - 06:34 am
Robby ~
I understand why you keep asking for us to post; but:
Regarding the paragraph in post #377 where Darwin wrote:
Nature follows what may be called a simultaneous rotation.
I'm not convinced that nature does any such thing, nor does he give much evidence to support such a theory.

Few of us seem to find anything to post, either, as perhaps we don't want to question Darwin's theories.
Also, I find nothing to say about naturalization of plants; I'm not exactly lurking, I'm just waiting to go on.

Sunknow
April 13, 2006 - 12:52 pm
Yes, I'm still here, too. Every day.

Sun

robert b. iadeluca
April 13, 2006 - 04:41 pm
Thanks for "signing in", people. Keeps me from feeling lonely.

If you'll forgive my talking like a psychologist, I believe firmly that every single word said in this discussion -- both from Darwin and from our own comments -- sinks into our brains even if we don't understand them at the moment.

I believe that as we approach the end of the book, all these thoughts will come together in a pattern in our minds and Darwin's conclusions will make sense

and we'll say

"EUREKA!"

Robby

Sunknow
April 13, 2006 - 08:38 pm
THAT is something to look forward to....I'll keep reading, and we'll see.

Sun

Malryn
April 13, 2006 - 08:48 pm

But haven't you seen these things in nature, this natural selection? Seems to me we're over-complicating here. Thenk back on those lazy summer days when you were a kid and all you had to think about was the growing plant nearby that was most succulent and tasted best; I mean that stem you so casually put in your mouth.

You know, we over-complicate ourselves intellectually. Yesterady I saw some crocus sprouts outide. I was lucky enough to get out. I have some tulips here in my apartment that are that craft of a hybridizer, I'm sure. I am remembering the Lilies of the Valley that grew near the brick chimney at the house where I grew up. And the ivy, and the apple blossoms in the back yard. And the currant bushes.

And the perennial garden which changed year by year. The planter of that garden, my aunt, never did things to it to change its plan, but something different happned every single year. I loved looking at it and wondering what would be different this time.

It didn't take brains to notice the changes. Darwin's project is simple, really. The complicated part is trying to convince people that what he (and others like me) observed is true.

Mal

Malryn
April 13, 2006 - 09:01 pm

And I suppose trying to persuade people who believed thet everything they saw was god-planned wans't easy.

What am I saying? It's well-nigh impossible! "A man convinced against his will is a firm believe, still.". Or a woman or a child.

This latest about Judas -- with proof-- is an example. How many are going to drop the Jesus story, as it has come down through the centuries?

Oh, boy, I wish I could live a few centuries longer. Belief is iron clad, unshakable and immovable.

Or is it?

Mal

suec
April 14, 2006 - 03:08 am
Been lurking since the beginning. Very interesting.

robert b. iadeluca
April 14, 2006 - 03:45 am
Good to have you with us, Sue. And all you others who are patiently soaking up all this stuff.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 14, 2006 - 04:11 am
"By considering the nature of the plants or animals which have in any country struggled successfully with the indigenes and have there become naturalised, we may gain some crude idea in what manner some of the natives would have to be modified, in order to gain an advantage over their compatriots.

"We may at least infer that diversification of structure, amounting to new generic differences, would be profitable to them.

"The advantage of diversification of structure in the inhabitants of the same region is, in fact, the same as that of the physiological division of labour in the organs of the same individual body- a subject so well elucidated by Milne Edwards.

"No physiologist doubts that a stomach adapted to digest vegetable matter alone, or flesh alone, draws most nutriment from these substances.

"So in the general economy of any land, the more widely and perfectly the animals and plants are diversified for different habits of life, so will a greater number of individuals be capable of there supporting themselves.

"A set of animals, with their organisation but little diversified, could hardly compete with a set more perfectly diversified in structure.

"It may be doubted, for instance, whether the Australian marsupials, which are divided into groups differing but little from each other -- and feebly representing, as Mr. Waterhouse and others have remarked, our carnivorous, ruminant, and rodent mammals -- could successfully compete with these well-developed orders. In the Australian mammals, we see the process of diversification in an early and incomplete stage of development."

The word which comes to my mind in this paragraph is "compromise." I draw an analogy of two people marrying but each person having his/her own individual characteristics. In order for the marriage to be fairly happy, each person needs to change a bit. Consider an Englishman in the 16th/17th century who marries a Native American woman. In marrying the Indigene, the Englishman becomes "naturalized" -- changes -- diversifies. The "Indian" woman modifies -- changes, difersifies -- her characteristics.

Darwin draws upon physiology to create an analogy. A long-time vegetarian draws the most nutrient from vegetables. He/she is adapted to that. But if he decides to add meat to his diet, his stomach modifies to the point where he can also draw nourishment from meat.

If I may generalize, people who are overly rigid, who refuse to change their habits in any fashion, find it difficult to support themselves in society. Diversifying ones attitude and behavior leads to easier survival. So it is, Darwin says, with plants and animals.

Are my analogies way off base, folks? What do you think?

Robby

Mallylee
April 14, 2006 - 08:25 am
Darwin assumes that an ecosystem ( anachronistic word I know) contains species that co-operate like the organs in an individual's body co-operate to the mutual advantage of the whole.

Malryn
April 14, 2006 - 09:57 am

MALLYLEE said, "Darwin assumes that an ecosystem ( anachronistic word I know) contains species that co-operate like the organs in an individual's body co-operate to the mutual advantage of the whole."

If Darwin did this, then he was being very human. It is extremely difficult to think in abstracts, especially when one is untrained in mathematics. A good part of the time human beings look to themselves to find answers and relate those answers to the natural world.

Although I am a musician and have translated and transferred lines and spaces and icons for keys and pitch to a musical instrument and the human voice, thus making music take life -- "on the wings of song" -- I feel woefully ignorant when it comes to translating abstracts in nature, or interpreting them.

There is a fleeting second before sleep or waking when I am able to know the abstract. There was a place before I stopped drinking when my brain was able to understand such things that it balks at 100% sober. Sometimes there's a nudge in the right direction for no reason at all.

I call this opening my mind through whatever means. ROBBY's analogies are right. I want to live a few more centuries to see what is discovered about the human brain. Sometimes I am furious when I think I've barely scratched the surface of mine.

Where would we go in thinking? What would we do if we found the key to the brain, aka mind?

Slow down a little, World. They just found another missing link. How many links does it take to make a bracelet?

Mal

Scrawler
April 14, 2006 - 11:10 am
So when I end up with a lovely bunch of "weeds" in my garden and my flowers die on the vine are the "weeds" diversifying and the flowers not?

JudytheKay
April 14, 2006 - 01:36 pm
Scrawler:

Here is something I just looked up on "weeds" -

Weeds produce large number of seeds and/or can reproduce vegetatively Seeds are tough, long-lived and can survive harsh environmental conditions Seeds often have no special germination triggers (e.g., rain, temperature, fire, humidity) Seedling growth is fast Weeds have physiological adaptations such as fast uptake of nutrients or salt tolerance Weeds are tolerant of a variety of soil and climatic conditions (hardy generalists - can live almost anywhere!) Weeds are adapted for dispersal (usually seed adaptations, but also vegetative dispersal, e.g., re-growth from broken stem fragments, or suckering)

I guess they are.

JudytheKay

Mippy
April 14, 2006 - 02:19 pm
Judy ~ that was excellent material on weeds.

An on-line dictionary gives:
1. A weed is a plant considered undesirable, unattractive, or troublesome,
especially one growing where it is not wanted, as in a garden.
2. Rank growth of such plants.

I'd suggest that weeds are not particularly more diverse, but are more hardy, more tenacious, as well as more annoying. They may be more fit to survive than whatever plant a gardener chooses to cultivate.

Maryboree
April 14, 2006 - 03:23 pm
I am another lurker--even before the discussion officially started. I'm having a ball "listening" to all you smart guys and gals. Robby, you handle this so well and I admire your taking on such a difficult task. Good job, everybody.

robert b. iadeluca
April 14, 2006 - 11:57 pm
Maryboree:-Good to know that you have been with us all this time.

Robby

Malryn
April 15, 2006 - 11:20 am

Well, hey, this little piece I wrote was prompted by Darwin's Origin of Species. It's a holiday weekend, so I'm taking the liberty of posting it here. It's not long. Don't get scared.

WADING TALES from McMICHAELS CREEK






There was a rumor going around that the sparkles came from slivers of a star the wind pushed down on a midsummer night. How they got in the joyful little pond at the end of McMichaels Creek had been thoroughly discussed, but nobody came up with an answer. I really don’t think anybody wanted to. It was a magical mystery that shouldn’t be touched with the glittery wand of education or a ten foot pole.




Winter after winter, summer after summer, fall after fall, McMichaels Creek struggled toward spring, the favorite time of all. By the time all the ice creaked away and the pure white water dazzled its way among the rocks down the mountain to the rippling looking glass, every living creature was ready to think about starting a family and settling down.




If settling down meant building a nest or shelter of some kind and working from dawn to nightfall finding food to satisfy a demanding and hungry family, so the species would continue, nobody thought about that. It was just what they did, the way they lived, and nobody complained.





There was sickness, of course, from time to time. Some up and died; others lived. It is survival of the fittest at McMichaels Creek, and that is proven out every day.






The denizens of the stream and its banks didn’t think about that, either. They lived their lives doing what they’d been put there to do. Through sun and rain, snow and sleet, unbearable heat, way below freezing cold, they uncomplainingly did what they’d always done, and the stream flowed away year after year, generation after generation. That was what life was all about, and McMichaels Creek was life’s greatest and best representation. The golden forsythia rambling up and down the hills winked down at the water as if to say, “You do a good job, just like the rest of us do.”




When a terrible drought ended, the springs that fed McMichaels sent the water rushing down the stream, and animals and birds became rejuvenated by the heaven-sent water. If the stream overflowed its banks and mighty floods came, after it was over the survivors went about their business and started all over again.




This was life on McMichaels Creek. It is life, demanding, monotonous, repetitious, same thing over and over, not questioning why or asking how, just living day by day, as McMichaels Creek is witness to the pattern of life and death and rejuvenation and life again with every year that passed by.





The days are golden. The days are black. They are there to be used wisely and enjoyed in all of their easy, difficult, painful, pain-free, tearful, smiling, joyous varieties.








Marilyn Freeman


All rights reserved


© 2006

JudytheKay
April 15, 2006 - 08:37 pm
Malryn,

What a lovely little piece you have written. Thank you for sharing it with all of us. I shall print it out and keep it with some of my favorites.

JudytheKay

Malryn
April 16, 2006 - 01:05 am

Thank you, JUDY. That you would save one of these Tales is a fine compliment to any writer.
Here's More Wading Tales from McMichaels Creek


Thaddeus was old and gnarled and crookedy from the day he was born. As a child he spent his time at the bend in the creek. You know, the one halfway up the mountain where the sun shines through the trees and the creek curves around the stand of white birches that's been there forever, it seems. Taddy looked for creatures in need that he could help, and along the way he picked up as many feathers as the bag slung over his shoulders could hold.


Among the hale and hardy fellows he met there was Paddledy Wrigglewhyte, the oldest trout in the stream. Those less strong than Paddledy received much of Tad’s attention. One, Frog Franklin, was always cold. The solution to Frog’s problem was hard to find until one cloudy day in November Taddy’s thinking cleared and he covered his friend’s shivering frame with feathers.


“Nice and warm?” he asked.


“Sure am,” Franklin replied. “You’re a pal, Thaddeus, a friend in need doing good deeds.”


Taddy thought about it when he went home to the cottage he lived in that overlooked the creek. Nothing he did was special, as far as he could see. Doing good deeds seemed natural to him. He pulled up the featherbed he had made from an old canvas sack and some of the feathers he stored, rolled over, snored once and was fast asleep.


It was the day he saved the blind water rat from tumbling down the rapids that was the unusual one. He discovered that Ratty wasn’t really blind. His poor eyes were inflamed and infected, that’s all.


In his usual way, he bathed Ratty’s eyes with fresh water from the creek, and then made a poultice of feathers, feverfew and mint which he applied to the troubled area. The day after, Ratty was better, and seemed to be back on the road to good health. When he approached Taddy creekside as he splinted a squirrel’s broken leg with branches lined with soft feathers, he said, “Thanks a lot, Buddy. I never thought I’d see your face again.”


“It was nothin’,” said Taddy, walking away to find another fellow in need.

It was windy that night with a strange light in the sky somehow. Taddy made sure all of his windows were bolted, that the door was tightly latched, and that his feather collection was well-wrapped and tied down. Then he lay on his bed and fell into a fitful sleep.

It must have been around two when thunder shook the rooftop and a flash of light briefly filled the room. “Thaddeus,” a voice said, “this is God here to tell you I made you a saint.”



“Wh-wh-what?” said Taddy, convinced he was dreaming or starting to hallucinate. Must be the stew he ate for supper upset him somehow.



“Saint McMichaels,” God continued. “That’s your name from now on. You’ll be the Patron Saint of Feathers the rest of your mortal life.”

“Patron Saint of Feathers?” Taddy said, fully awake now. Maybe it wasn’t a dream, after all. “Where are you? Let me see your face, so I know you’re not pulling my leg.”

“Oh, no,” God’s voice said. “Nobody sees this face. You’ll just have to take my word for it, son.”


Taddy sat bolt upright and searched the shadows for a glimpse of God. In the process he realized the hump at the bottom of his neck didn’t hurt so much, and the constant little headache that had hovered behind his eyes, for most of his life, was gone.


“Hmm,” he murmured.


“What did you say, Taddy? Speak up so this spirit can hear what you say.”


“I’m just wondering what my duties as Patron Saint of Feathers could be."


“Same as always,” God replied. “Keep your nose to the grindstone, pick up feathers, help the poor and the halt and those in need, and you’ll be fine.”


“That’s it?” Taddy asked, astonished.

“Don’t take much to be a saint,” God answered.


In the crack of a second Thaddeus realized God was gone. Surely he’d been dreaming. Who in the world would ever make him the Patron Saint of Feathers?


He turned on the lamp beside his bed and looked around. Nothing had changed, not a single thing. Wait. What was that over by the door?


He got out of bed, stooped over and picked up the most glorious feather he’d ever seen. It was every color of the rainbow and tipped with gold. Taddy stood there a second; then he heard a soft laugh.






Marilyn Freeman
All rights reserved
© 2006

Mallylee
April 16, 2006 - 05:33 am
Scientists believe that as the stocks of the fish continue to dwindle the fish may no longer spawn, leading to the extinction of cod in the North Sea.

According to experts, there must be at least 70,000 tonnes of cod in the North Sea for the species to have any kind of future, and twice that level to allow a healthy fishery to exist.

The Scottish fishing industry last night reacted with fury to the looming ban on cod fishing.


from scotlandonsunday, today

robert b. iadeluca
April 16, 2006 - 05:57 am
Thank you, Mallylee, for reminding us that we need to think in large numbers, not one specific organism. So plants die, trees die, wolves die, salmon die. It may be sad (to use that anthropomorphic term) from the individual's point of view but is hardly a blip on the screen of evolution.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 16, 2006 - 06:00 am
The Probable Effects of the Action of Natural Selection, through Divergence of Character and Extinction, on the Descendants of a Common Ancestor.

robert b. iadeluca
April 16, 2006 - 06:03 am
"After the foregoing discussion, which has been much compressed, we may assume that the modified descendants of any one species will succeed so much the better as they become more diversified in structure -- and are thus enabled to encroach on places occupied by other beings.

"Now let us see how this principle of benefit being derived from divergence of character, combined with the principles of natural selection and of extinction, tends to act."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 16, 2006 - 06:09 am
Please print out THIS DIAGRAM.

Robby

Mippy
April 16, 2006 - 08:08 am
Robby ~ Are you going to give us a heads-up? What is that diagram?

robert b. iadeluca
April 16, 2006 - 08:49 am
The diagram you just printed out goes with the following paragraph. I don't know if it is going to help us or confuse us further but let us see if we can understand Darwin at this point.

"The accompanying diagram (See diagram) will aid us in understanding this rather perplexing subject.

"Let A to L represent the species of a genus large in its own country.

"These species are supposed to resemble each other in unequal degrees -- as is so generally the case in nature -- and as is represented in the diagram by the letters standing at unequal distances.

"I have said a large genus -- because as we saw in the second chapter -- on an average more species vary in large genera than in small genera. The varying species of the large genera present a greater number of varieties.

"We have, also, seen that the species -- which are the commonest and the most widely diffused -- vary more than do the rare and restricted species.

"Let (A) be a common, widely-diffused, and varying species, belonging to a genus large in its own country. The branching and diverging lines of unequal lengths proceeding from (A), may represent its varying offspring.

"The variations are supposed to be extremely slight, but of the most diversified nature. They are not supposed all to appear simultaneously, but often after long intervals of time -- nor are they an supposed to endure for equal periods.

"Only those variations which are in some way profitable will be preserved or naturally selected.

"Here the importance of the principle of benefit derived from divergence of character comes in. This will generally lead to the most different or divergent variations -- represented by the outer lines -- being preserved and accumulated by natural selection.

"When a line reaches one of the horizontal lines, and is there marked by a small numbered letter, a sufficient amount of variation is supposed to have been accumulated to form it into a fairly well-marked variety, such as would be thought worthy of record in a systematic work."

Let us not overcomplicate this.

In this new section Darwin is emphasizing the importance of Divergence and its effect on the descendents of the various organisms.

At the bottom of the diagram are letters representing species. Letters "G" and "H" are very close together so these two species appear almost alike. Letters "C" and "D" are apart so these two species have similarities but not too many.

Let us follow Species "A." This species varies in many ways and is found all over the place. We can see from the lines running upward from "A" that as each generation has descendents, they spread out widely, although the differences from generation to generation may not be too great.

As we follow up the lines, decades, centuries may be passing. Changes are slow.

As we look upward from the letter "A", we see a V-shape design. But as we look at each generation from horizontal line to horizontal line and examine the little boxes, we see the same V-shape emanating from each box. This is the diversification to which Darwin refers (I believe).

If the gradual changes occurring in the organisms benefitted them, the changes would continue and move on to the descendants. If there was no benefit, the organism would die. The lines of uneven length show those organisms which died or lived for varying lengths of time.

Every now and then the line moving upward reaches a horizontal line. That is Darwin's way of saying that the organism is so structured that naturalists now label it a variety or species.

What do you think, people?

Robby

Sunknow
April 16, 2006 - 10:57 am
Fascinating....

Sun

robert b. iadeluca
April 17, 2006 - 04:26 am
Please place your newly printed diagram next to the computer.

"The intervals between the horizontal lines in the diagram, may represent each a thousand or more generations.

"After a thousand generations, species (A) is supposed to have produced two fairly well-marked varieties, namely a1 and m1.

"These two varieties will generally still be exposed to the same conditions which made their parents variable, and the tendency to variability is in itself hereditary. Consequently they will likewise tend to vary, and commonly in nearly the same manner as did their parents.

"Moreover, these two varieties, being only slightly modified forms, will tend to inherit those advantages which made their parent (A) more numerous than most of the other inhabitants of the same country.

"They will also partake of those more general advantages which made the genus to which the parent-species belonged, a large genus in its own country.

"And all these circumstances are favourable to the production of new varieties."

Once again Darwin reminds us that these changes take place SL0-O-O-WLY. In his diagram just one interval between two horizontal lines represents perhaps a thousand generations. If we are talking about let's say that perennial plant in your garden, then we may be talking about a thousand years. And that's only one horizontal line. Now count the number of horizontal lines and we may begin to get the idea.

Now let's put our finger on letter (species) "A" and follow it up just one horizontal line. After perhaps a thousand generations it has produced a1 and m1 which he calls two fairly well-marked varieties.

Assuming that these two varieties are living in the same type of environment as their ancestor a thousand generations before, and following their tendency to vary which they inherited, they also will vary.

Because they were only "slightly modified" having passed through only a thousand generations, they have inherited the same strong survival tendencies that their ancestor had and will continue to propagate.

Now new varieties will come into existence as shown in the V-design which emanates upward from a1 and m1 -- getting ready to go another thousand generations.

All in agreement here?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 17, 2006 - 03:57 pm
Continue to have Darwin's chart next to your computer. The letters may be hard to read but the idea should be clear.

"If, then, these two varieties be variable, the most divergent of their variations will generally be preserved during the next thousand generations.

"And after this interval, variety a1 is supposed in the diagram to have produced variety a2, which will, owing to the principle of divergence, differ more from (A) than did variety a1.

"Variety m1 is supposed to have produced two varieties, namely m2 and s2, differing from each other, and more considerably from their common parent (A).

"We may continue the process by similar steps for any length of time -- some of the varieties, after each thousand generations, producing only a single variety, but in a more and more modified condition -- some producing two or three varieties -- and some failing to produce any. Thus the varieties or modified descendants of the common parent (A), will generally go on increasing in number and diverging in character.

"In the diagram the process is represented up to the ten-thousandth generation, and under a condensed and simplified form up to the fourteen-thousandth generation."

Based on the theory of Divergence, Species "A" leads to variety "a1" which is a bit different, then to variety "a2" which is even more different, and so on.

Some of these varieties may reproduce to form the same variety but in a more modified condition. Other varieties may become different varieties and other varieties may die.

In other words, as I understand it, as generation follows generation the numbers of the organisms increase but also simultaneously change in character.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 18, 2006 - 03:52 am
Any of you folks using the diagram? If you did not print out one, you can find it by using the link in Post 406.

Robby

JudytheKay
April 18, 2006 - 08:55 am
The diagram in the text book is quite clear - I'm using that one. The one I printed out is not usable.

Judy

robert b. iadeluca
April 18, 2006 - 08:22 pm
"If, then, these two varieties be variable, the most divergent of their variations will generally be preserved during the next thousand generations.

"And after this interval, variety a1 is supposed in the diagram to have produced variety a2, which will, owing to the principle of divergence, differ more from (A) than did variety a1.

"Variety m1 is supposed to have produced two varieties, namely m2 and s2, differing from each other, and more considerably from their common parent (A).

"We may continue the process by similar steps for any length of time -- some of the varieties, after each thousand generations, producing only a single variety, but in a more and more modified condition -- some producing two or three varieties, and some failing to produce any.

"Thus the varieties or modified descendants of the common parent (A), will generally go on increasing in number and diverging in character. In the diagram the process is represented up to the ten-thousandth generation, and under a condensed and simplified form up to the fourteen-thousandth generation."

Very simply, I believe Darwin is emphasizing here that organisms don't go on generation after generation producing offspring exactly like themselves. Instead Divergence is the name of the game.

And divergence in differing ways -- i.e. the same variety with modifications -- or actually different varieties -- or even past that to varieties which get to a point where naturalists call them different species.

"Change" on and on and on and on for generation after generation after generation. In the process, however, organisms without productive change can die.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 20, 2006 - 08:27 pm
"But I must here remark that I do not suppose that the process ever goes on so regularly as is represented in the diagram -- though in itself made somewhat irregular -- nor that it goes on continuously.

"It is far more probable that each form remains for long periods unaltered, and then again undergoes modification.

"Nor do I suppose that the most divergent varieties are invariably preserved. A medium form may often long endure, and may or may not produce more than one modified descendant.

"For natural selection will always act according to the nature of the places which are either unoccupied or not perfectly occupied by other beings. This will depend on infinitely complex relations.

"But as a general rule, the more diversified in structure the descendants from any one species can be rendered, the more places they will be enabled to seize on -- and the more their modified progeny will increase.

"In our diagram the line of succession is broken at regular intervals by small numbered letters marking the successive forms which have become sufficiently distinct to be recorded as varieties. These breaks are imaginary, and might have been inserted anywhere, after intervals long enough to allow the accumulation of a considerable amount of divergent variation."

The diagram, Darwin tells us, is merely to help us to understand the process of Divergence of Character. Life, he emphasizes, is not as simple as the diagram would imply.

Generations may go by without any change occurring in the organism's descendants.

And just because a modification may help the organism at times, at other times it could also lead to extinction.

The environment, as he told us earlier, may make a difference. Is there an area where the modified organism can thrive? Are there other organisms also fighting for their own life which prevent this organism from thriving or even living?

Life is tenuous and not as certain as the diagram might imply.

Your comments please?

Robby

Mippy
April 21, 2006 - 07:05 am
That diagram is just a teaching devise, not a statement of probability.
IMO, Nothing in the type of diagram given here is about "certainty."

Sorry to have so few comments, but exam week in Latin is taking all my energy. I'll get a "note" from Ginny.

robert b. iadeluca
April 21, 2006 - 07:55 pm
"As all the modified descendants from a common and widely-diffused species -- belonging to a large genus -- will tend to partake of the same advantages which made their parent successful in life, they will generally go on multiplying in number as well as diverging in character.

"This is represented in the diagram by the several divergent branches proceeding from (A).

"The modified offspring from the later and more highly improved branches in the lines of descent, will, it is probable, often take the place of, and so destroy, the earlier and less improved branches.

"This is represented in the diagram by some of the lower branches not reaching to the upper horizontal lines.

"In some cases no doubt the process of modification will be confined to a single line of descent. The number of modified descendants will not be increased although the amount of divergent modification may have been augmented.

"This case would be represented in the diagram, if all the lines proceeding from (A) were removed, excepting that from a1 to a10.

"In the same way the English race-horse and English pointer have apparently both gone on slowly diverging in character from their original stocks, without either having given off any fresh branches or races."

I see this paragraph as merely emphasizing what was said in previous paragraphs. Because the descendents grow in the same environment and have other advantages that their ancestors had, they will thrive and reproduce.

He does point out that those descendents which are modified and are stronger thereby often replace (in other words destroy) other descendents which did not receive the beneficial modifications. Cousins replacing cousins?

Some organisms don't diverge but merely modify certain characteristics, e.g. English race horse and English pointer.

What are your thoughts, people?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 23, 2006 - 12:54 am
"After ten thousand generations, species (A) is supposed to have produced three forms, a10, f10, and m10 which -- from having diverged in character during the successive generations, will have come to differ largely -- but perhaps unequally, from each other and from their common parent.

"If we suppose the amount of change between each horizontal line in our diagram to be excessively small, these three forms may still be only well-marked varieties.

"But we have only to suppose the steps in the process of modification to be more numerous or greater in amount, to convert these three forms into well-defined or at least into doubtful species.

"Thus the diagram illustrates the steps by which the small differences distinguishing varieties are increased into the larger differences distinguishing species.

"By continuing the same process for a greater number of generations --as shown in the diagram in a condensed and simplified manner -- we get eight species, marked by the letters between a14 and m14, all descended from (A).

"Thus, as I believe, species are multiplied and genera are formed."

Let us not worry about the diagram at this point. In Darwin's opinion, the difference between a variety and a species is purely subjective. It is what naturalists say it is. Small differences distinguish varieties. Larger differences distinguish species (either well-defined or doubtful.)

And again he emphasizes that these differences occurred after thousands and thousands and thousands of generations.

At that point one ancient species could have modified into any number of newer species, all differing in various ways.

I'll bet that his thinking in this direction must have driven the people of that era nuts!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 23, 2006 - 07:43 pm
Gee, it's fun reading this book by myself!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 23, 2006 - 07:52 pm
"In a large genus it is probable that more than one species would vary.

"In the diagram I have assumed that a second species (I) has produced, by analogous steps, after ten thousand generations, either two well-marked varieties (w10 and z10) or two species -- according to the amount of change supposed to be represented between the horizontal lines.

"After fourteen thousand generations, six new species, marked by the letters n14 to z14, are supposed to have. been produced.

"In any genus, the species which are already very different in character from each other, will generally tend to produce the greatest number of modified descendants.

"These will have the best chance of seizing on new and widely different places in the polity of nature. Hence in the diagram I have chosen the extreme species (A) -- and the nearly extreme species (I) -- as those which have largely varied, and have given rise to new varieties and species.

"The other nine species (marked by capital letters) of our original genus, may for long but unequal periods continue to transmit unaltered descendants. This is shown in the diagram by the dotted lines unequally prolonged upwards."

Let us not spend much time here. We are not trying to be scientists so we don't have to follow Darwin's diagram in order to get his drift. He is estimating (give an eon or two) that after 14,000 generations, one species would have modified into six species.

Robby

suec
April 23, 2006 - 07:57 pm
Your not alone, Robbie. I'm enjoying this very much.

robert b. iadeluca
April 23, 2006 - 08:04 pm
Thank you, Sue. I was beginning to think I had been confined to a "solitary cell."

Robby

Maryboree
April 23, 2006 - 10:03 pm
Robby: Re your statement "I'll bet that his thinking in this direction must have driven the people of that era nuts!" is a good one because I think it still drives people in this era nuts. Any you are not reading this book alone. While I really am not qualified to participate in these discussions, I don't always understand all that is written. But I have read every single posting and find it fascinating, very interesting and I believe I have learned SOMETHING anyway. So, keep going and I thank you.

Éloïse De Pelteau
April 23, 2006 - 10:28 pm
Natural selection vs unnatural selection. As we observe the Western world getting heavier and heavier I comes to my mind that "something" and "someone" else than choice of food is responsible for this phenomenon. I don't think it's gluttony, that would be so easy to think. If I am not a scientist, or a researcher, I can still think, thank goodness.

Then I thought what if conglomerates were perhaps genetically modifying food so that grains and seeds were either added or subtracted with a gene to produce more food at less cost and this tampering of natural nutriments was damaging human's organism and this has not been thoroughly evaluated or examined yet, either on purpose on because of neglect.

That is what I think perhaps has been done to nature along with other ecological disasters since the last century. Darwin trusted nature to be always choosing the best course in their selection for reproduction. I think he lived in an age that permitted him to observe nature at it's best, before people came in to put a wrench in his analysis of nature as it intended to be, "natural".

Perfect living creatures are being modified by the intelligent, but unethical ones, it seems to me.

I can't help it but to project further than Darwin, sorry Robby. You are not alone, but these are my thoughts as I follow this discussion. You are doing a thankless job I am afraid.

Malryn
April 23, 2006 - 10:56 pm

Natural is not always the right way or the best. Nature itself proves this, and I'm sure Charles Darwin would agree.

Mal

Mippy
April 24, 2006 - 12:43 am
Robby ~ Did you see my note last week?
You sound so lonely!
Between SeniorNet being down so much, plus 3 days of exams in Ginny's advanced Latin class,
I think I have an excuse for not posting!

Bubble
April 24, 2006 - 01:28 am
Mal, please explain "Nature itself proves this". I can't think how?

Mallylee
April 25, 2006 - 01:58 am
Eloise, I have been thinking about your message, and have not been able to come to a conclusion myself.

Fat people are certainly a public health problem for any nation, as increasing numbers of fat people are a drain on health services, are less able to do a normal lifetime's work, partly because they die young, and partly because they are unwell more than fit people.

I think there is a link between getting food that is too cheap, and public health in the long term, but I cannot decide for my self whether or not there is direct link to reproductive capability.

Certainly, the culture of softness is going to detract from a nation's health ,but Darwin's 'struggle for existence ' doesn't apply to human individuals because human individuals have babies not only because we have lived long enough to be sexually mature.

robert b. iadeluca
April 25, 2006 - 03:09 am
It is so nice to get all these messages. Thank you. And this is not a "thankless" job, Eloise. I don't expect gratitude. I am reading the book for whatever I can get out of it. Like Mary, I don't understand all that is written but I, also, find it fascinating. Please keep in mind, people, that whatever we understand so far, we are probably far ahead of the majority of the population. We realize how little we know and a good hunk of them think they know everything about Darwin's theory.

So let us continue.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 25, 2006 - 03:27 am
"But during the process of modification, represented in the diagram, another of our principles -- namely that of extinction -- will have played an important part.

"As in each fully stocked country natural selection necessarily acts by the selected form having some advantage in the struggle for life over other forms, there will be a constant tendency in the improved descendants of any one species to supplant and exterminate in each stage of descent their predecessors and their original progenitor.

"For it should be remembered that the competition will generally be most severe between those forms which are most nearly related to each other in habits, constitution, and structure.

"Hence all the intermediate forms between the earlier and later states -- that is between the less and more improved states of the same species, as well as the original parent-species itself -- will generally tend to become extinct.

"So it probably will be with many whole collateral lines of descent, which will be conquered by later and improved lines.

"If, however, the modified offspring of a species get into some distinct country, or become quickly adapted to some quite new station -- in which offspring and progenitor do not come into competition -- both may continue to exist."

Darwin reminds us that the form of change that continues down through the descendants usually has some advantage to the organsim as it struggles for life or it wouldn't live. That makes sense, doesn't it?

So therefore the "stronger" descendants (whatever stronger means) take the place of the weaker ones. In this sense, the weaker ones die. The stronger ones reproduce but the weaker ones do not because they are dead.

Darwin says that the greatest competition exists between organisms that are "nearly related to each other in habits, constitution, and structure." That makes sense too, doesn't it? One deer competes with another for the leaves. One bird competes with another for the insects. The deer doesn't give a hoot about the insects or the bird for the leaves.

If I understand Darwin correctly, if the descendants of a particular bird began to prefer only ants and another descendant began to prefer only worms, they would not compete with each other, would gradually become two different varieties, and would survive and reproduce.

Robby

Malryn
April 25, 2006 - 05:24 am

BUBBLE, it's a matter of point of view. Bacteria and virii are natural. They exist in nature. When a medicine or vaccine is created by humans to combat the weakening, crippling, and/or death caused by these bacteria and virii, they change form and become resistant to these medicines and vaccines. Not only the weakest of humans or animals or plants is killed by these, but, in the case of humans, the best, the gentlest, the kindest, the very intelligent, sometimes, are struck down and die. This may be natural, but I don't think it's right or best. This weeding out of the weakest by nature, as described by Darwin, and witnessed by other naturalists, like Annie Dillard, is often ruthless destruction, in my opinion.

Mal

Bubble
April 25, 2006 - 07:18 am
Thanks Mal. I did not think of bacteria when I read the post (and how ro read again without a previous button? lol) but then that random striking is one of nature's whims. I don't think that there is a target on the kindest or most intelligent. I do think that the challenge of surviving would give more cunning as compensation.

Scrawler
April 25, 2006 - 09:53 am
According to Webster: "strong: capable of exerting great force or of withstanding stress or violence 2: healthy 3: zealous."

Perhaps Darwin was referring to "strong" as being "healthy." That works for me. The descendants were "healthier" than their parents and that was the reason they survived while their parents became extent.

robert b. iadeluca
April 25, 2006 - 03:23 pm
Mal:-"Ruthless" is a human emotional approach.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 25, 2006 - 03:44 pm
"If, then, our diagram be assumed to represent a considerable amount of modification, species (A) and all the earlier varieties will have become extinct, being replaced by eight new species (a14 to m14); and species (I) will be replaced by six (n14 to z14) new species.

"But we may go further than this. The original species of our genus were supposed to resemble each other in unequal degrees, as is so generally the case in nature -- species (A) being more nearly related to B, C, and D, than to the other species -- and species (I) more to G, H, K, L, than to the others.

"These two species (A) and (I) were also supposed to be very common and widely diffused species, so that they must originally have had some advantage over most of the other species of the genus.

"Their modified descendants -- fourteen in number at the fourteen-thousandth generation -- will probably have inherited some of the same advantages. They have also been modified and improved in a diversified manner at each stage of descent, so as to have become adapted to many related places in the natural economy of their country.

"It seems, therefore, extremely probable that they will have taken the places of -- and thus exterminated -- not only their parents (A) and (I), but likewise some of the original species which were most nearly related to their parents.

"Hence very few of the original species will have transmitted offspring to the fourteen-thousandth generation.

"We may suppose that only one, (F), of the two species (E and F) which were least closely related to the other nine original species, has transmitted descendants to this late stage of descent."

If I may over-simplify -- over thousands of generations, these descendants would have modified and modified and modified to the extent where they are now comfortable in a new environment.

They will obviously have take the place of their ancestors and in a sense we may say they "killed" them. New species now exist. Old species will have died.

Yes?

Robby

Malryn
April 25, 2006 - 05:27 pm

ROBBY, dig dig dig.
". . . . . . .is often ruthless destruction, in my opinion."

Malaway

Bubble
April 25, 2006 - 10:59 pm
Mal, Malawi is a beautiful country, you would have loved it... Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
April 26, 2006 - 03:51 am
"The new species in our diagram descended from the original eleven species, will now be fifteen in number.

"Owing to the divergent tendency of natural selection, the extreme amount of difference in character between species a14 and z14 will be much greater than that between the most distinct of the original eleven species.

"The new species, moreover, will be allied to each other in a widely different manner. Of the eight descendants from (A) the three marked a14, q14, p14, will be nearly related from having recently branched off from a10; b14, and f14 -- from having diverged at an earlier period from a1, will be in some degree distinct from the three first-named species -- and lastly, o14, e14, and m14, will be nearly related one to the other -- but, from having diverged at the first commencement of the process of modification, will be widely different from the other five species, and may constitute a sub-genus or a distinct genus."

Without bothering to look at the chart -- if any of us are -- we follow Darwin's logic that new species come from old species. That the longer the elapse of time, the greater the difference.

Comments, anyone?

Robby

Mallylee
April 26, 2006 - 10:56 am
the image of the surface of an expanding balloon, an image that has been used to illustrate the expanding universe, serves to illustrate divergence over time

robert b. iadeluca
April 26, 2006 - 02:39 pm
That's an excellent analogy, Mallylee.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 26, 2006 - 03:20 pm
"The six descendants from (I) will form two sub-genera or genera.

"But as the original species (I) differed largely from (A), standing nearly at the extreme end of the original genus, the six descendants from (I) will -- owing to inheritance alone -- differ considerably from the eight descendants from (A).

"The two groups, moreover, are supposed to have gone on diverging in different directions. The intermediate species, also -- and this is a very important consideration -- which connected the original species (A) and (I), have all become, excepting (F), extinct, and have left no descendants.

"Hence the six new species descended from (I), and the eight descendants from (A), will have to be ranked as very distinct genera, or even as distinct sub-families.

"Thus it is, as I believe, that two or more genera are produced -- by descent with modification -- from two or more species of the same genus.

"And the two or more parent-species are supposed to be descended from some one species of an earlier genus.

"In our diagram, this is indicated by the broken lines, beneath the capital letters, converging in sub-branches downwards towards a single point. This point represents a species, the supposed progenitor of our several new sub-genera and genera."

These comments re-inforce what Darwin has been teaching us. We're all experts now, right?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 27, 2006 - 03:24 am
"It is worth while to reflect for a moment on the character of the new species F14 -- which is supposed not to have diverged much in character -- but to have retained the form of (F), either unaltered or altered only in a slight degree.

"In this case, its affinities to the other fourteen new species will be of a curious and circuitous nature.

"Being descended from a form which stood between the parent-species (A) and (I) -- now supposed to be extinct and unknown -- it will be in some degree intermediate in character between the two groups descended from these two species.

"But as these two groups have gone on diverging in character from the type of their parents, the new species (F14) will not be directly intermediate between them, but rather between types of the two groups. Every naturalist will be able to call such cases before his mind.

In the diagram, each horizontal line has hitherto been supposed to represent a thousand generations, but each may represent a million or more generations. It may also represent a section of the successive strata of the earth's crust including extinct remains.

"We shall, when we come to our chapter on Geology, have to refer again to this subject. I think we shall then see that the diagram throws light on the affinities of extinct beings, which -- though generally belonging to the same orders, families, or genera, with those now living -- yet are often, in some degree, intermediate in character between existing groups.

"We can understand this fact, for the extinct species lived at various remote epochs when the branching lines of descent had diverged less."

As I see it, Divergence takes place in all sorts of directions. Divergence from the ancient parent, divergence from the intermediate varieties, and divergence both from existing organisms and divergence from organisms that are extinct and not known to us.

Darwin again emphasizes that he talking about long (eons) periods of time -- millions and millions of generations. And looking back that far, he calls to our attention that the earth's crust may not have been the same then as it is now. This would have made a difference to the organisms existing at that time.

He titillates our interest by saying that he will soon speak more about Geology.

Robby

Maryboree
April 27, 2006 - 12:15 pm
Robby--

I marvel at your analysis of Darwin's work. I read it, and so much has very little meaning to me. But then your interpretation clears it up and I say "that's right. That's exactly the way it is." You sure make it understandable to the layman. I am eargerly awaiting more when you get into geology (not that I know anything there either, but the subject has always been of interest to me.) Thanks to everyone participating in these discussions for this learning experience. Where have I been all these years?????

robert b. iadeluca
April 28, 2006 - 07:27 pm
Mary:-Please understand that I haven't the slightest idea what I am doing. I'm just as much a layman as anyone here. I slowly read what Darwin says, try to interpret it with whatever logic I possess, and then try to say it in my own words. I am always open to people disagreeing with my interpretations.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 29, 2006 - 04:42 am
"I see no reason to limit the process of modification, as now explained, to the formation of genera alone.

"If, in the diagram, we suppose the amount of change -- represented by each successive group of diverging lines to be great -- the forms marked a14 to p14, those marked b14 and f14, and those marked o14 to m14, will form three very distinct genera.

"We shall also have two very distinct genera descended from (I), differing widely from the descendants of (A). These two groups of genera will thus form two distinct families, or orders, according to the amount of divergent modification supposed to be represented in the diagram.

"The two new families, or orders, are descended from two species of the original genus, and these are supposed to be descended from some still more ancient and unknown form."

Darwin now widens the area which he believes is affected by modifications. He says that not only are new species formed, but also new genera and new families.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 29, 2006 - 04:49 am
This TAXONOMY TABLE may help to refresh our thinking as Darwin discusses species, genera, and families.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
April 30, 2006 - 11:43 am
Now that we have read some of Darwin's work, are we looking at DOLPHINS just a bit differently?

Robby

Bubble
April 30, 2006 - 12:51 pm
It's a wonder...could it it be a new evolutionary step?

Mallylee
April 30, 2006 - 01:11 pm
Any publicity that stops dolphins being kept in tanks is good publicity. These animals need miles of open and deep cold seas for a habitat. They die soon in captivity. How selfish the human species is. We dont use our wonderful capacity for reason to understand how we should treat other animals.

robert b. iadeluca
April 30, 2006 - 01:42 pm
"We have seen that in each country it is the species belonging to the larger genera which oftenest present varieties or incipient species.

"This, indeed, might have been expected. As natural selection acts through one form having some advantage over other forms in the struggle for existence, it will chiefly act on those which already have some advantage.

"The largeness of any group shows that its species have inherited from a common ancestor some advantage in common. Hence, the struggle for the production of new and modified descendants will mainly lie between the larger groups which are all trying to increase in number.

"One large group will slowly conquer another large group, reduce its numbers, and thus lessen its chance of further variation and improvement. Within the same large group, the later and more highly perfected sub-groups -- from branching out and seizing on many new places in the polity of Nature -- will constantly tend to supplant and destroy the earlier and less improved sub-groups.

"Small and broken groups and sub-groups will finally disappear.

"Looking to the future, we can predict that the groups of organic beings which are now large and triumphant, and which are least broken up -- that is, which have as yet suffered least extinction -- will, for a long period, continue to increase.

"Which groups will ultimately prevail, no man can predict. We know that many groups, formerly most extensively developed, have now become extinct.

"Looking still more remotely to the future, we may predict that -- owing to the continued and steady increase of the larger groups -- a multitude of smaller groups will become utterly extinct, and leave no modified descendants. Of the species living at any one period, extremely few will transmit descendants to a remote futurity.

"I shall have to return to this subject in the chapter on Classification.

"I may add that as, according to this view, extremely few of the more ancient species have transmitted descendants to the present day, and -- as all the descendants of the same species form a class -- we can understand how it is that there exist so few classes in each main division of the animal and vegetable kingdoms.

"Although few of the most ancient species have left modified descendants yet -- at remote geological periods -- the earth may have been almost as well peopled with species of many genera, families, orders, and classes, as at the present time."

OK. Let's examine this. The species that belong to the largest genera (see Taxonomy Table in previous posting), have more varieties or about-to-become species. Those species which have the greatest advantages obviously produce more offspring. It's the old story -- the "haves" and the "have-nots." The "haves" get more. The "have-nots" lose what they have.

If a group has more organisms than another group, that would indicate that it carries the various advantages and passes them on to their offspring. And so each large group competes against another large group. (The small groups already died or are in the process of doing so.)

Looking toward the future, Darwin says, those large groups which are more powerful (more advantageous traits) will become even more large and powerful.

To the victors belong the spoils.

Robby

Bubble
May 1, 2006 - 02:06 am
"Although few of the most ancient species have left modified descendants yet -- at remote geological periods -- the earth may have been almost as well peopled with species of many genera, families, orders, and classes, as at the present time."

Does that mean that there was still lots of varieties in ancient times just like now, but of different kinds? So we should not worry about disappearing kinds, they will be replace in time by new ones.

robert b. iadeluca
May 1, 2006 - 03:05 am
That brings up a philosophical question, Bubble. Why are we trying to save various species? Under the guidance of Nature, they come and they go.

Robby

Bubble
May 1, 2006 - 03:09 am
We like the familiar, we are uneasy with the unknown?

robert b. iadeluca
May 1, 2006 - 03:24 am
On the Degree to which Organization tends to advance

robert b. iadeluca
May 1, 2006 - 03:58 am
"Natural Selection acts exclusively by the preservation and accumulation of variations, which are beneficial under the organic and inorganic conditions to which each creature is exposed at all periods of life.

"The ultimate result is that each creature tends to become more and more improved in relation to its conditions.

"This improvement inevitably leads to the gradual advancement of the organisation of the greater number of living beings throughout the world.

"But here we enter on a very intricate subject, for naturalists have not defined to each other's satisfaction what is meant by an advance in organisation. Amongst the vertebrata the degree of intellect and an approach in structure to man clearly come into play.

"It might be thought that the amount of change which the various parts and organs pass through in their development from the embryo to maturity would suffice as a standard of comparison. But there are cases -- as with certain parasitic crustaceans -- in which several parts of the structure become less perfect, so that the mature animal cannot be called higher than its larva.

"Von Baer's standard seems the most widely applicable and the best -- namely, the amount of differentiation of the parts of the same organic being -- in the adult state as I should be inclined to add -- and their specialisation for different functions. As Milne Edwards would express it, the completeness of the division of physiological labour.

"But we shall see how obscure this subject is if we look, for instance, to fishes, amongst which some naturalists rank those as highest which, like the sharks, approach nearest to amphibians.

"Other naturalists rank the common bony or teleostean fishes as the highest, inasmuch as they are most strictly fish-like and differ most from the other vertebrate classes.

"We see still more plainly the obscurity of the subject by turning to plants, amongst which the standard of intellect is of course quite excluded. Here some botanists rank those plants as highest which have every organ, as sepals, petals, stamens, and pistils, fully developed in each flower. Other botanists, probably with more truth, look at the plants which have their several organs much modified and reduced in number as the highest."

How does Natural Selection work, according to Darwin? By beneficial variations -- based on the environment -- being preserved and accumulated as each organism is reproduced. From this preservation and accumulation improvement results. Improvement leads to the structure of the organization itself being advanced.

Now Darwin runs into the same philosophical questions that have hit us here. What is the definition of "advancement?" And here Darwin for the first time uses the term "man." So I will also use it. What do we mean when we say that Homo Sapiens is more advanced than Neanderthal man or an ape? Should we measure that by examining individual organs of the being, e.g. liver? lungs? brain?

This doesn't work, Darwin tells us, because there are cases, e.g. parasitic crustaceans, where certain structures of the mature organism are less perfect than the offspring and is therefore not more "advanced."

In the case of plants, some naturalists say that the ones in which the flower has sepals, petals, stamens, pistils more fully developed are the highest form. Other naturalists say that the plants with the more reduced organs are the highest form.

So here we are, folks. Darwin and his fellow naturalists have the same problem we had right at the start. Definitions. What is a species? What is a variety? What is "advanced?" What is "highest?"

What do you think?

Robby

Bubble
May 1, 2006 - 04:56 am
Advanced would be IMO those more capable of adapting to different circumstances or changes in the environment, i.e. those capable of surviving and thriving if there is a sudden drastic change in climatic conditions.

In the paragraph before last I think the other botanists meant with the more reduced numbers of organs and not the more reduced organs; that is the more specialized, like with only stamens or only pistil.

Éloïse De Pelteau
May 1, 2006 - 04:57 am
Without going into a refined definition of terms, just off the cuff I would say that the term 'advanced' in an organism is an element in its structure that other organism look up to as being quasi perfect and because of this it is sought after for reproduction, therefore improving this organism.

The more near perfect the organism, the higher 'intelligence' it has to find ways to keep improving itself. What one member of a species finds attractive and desirable, another might not but it is the one which is is ruthless and aggressive in its definition of perfection that has the best chances in having the most descendents.

At the same time, it seems that when an organism has reached its ultimate perfection, and because nothing is ever static in nature, it cannot rise any further and it starts the downward spiral to eventual extinction. Perfection, it seems has its limits.

I don't even know if I understand what Darwin is saying.

Mallylee
May 1, 2006 - 05:05 am
what it means depends on the criterion.

Possible criteria:

complexity

cerebral development

efficient predation

supposed moral superiority

Scrawler
May 1, 2006 - 10:05 am
It's interesting to note that Nature accepts death and extinction as part of life. It is Man that places such emphasis on death and extinction. I can't help but wonder if left on its own what the world would be like. What species Nature would give us.

robert b. iadeluca
May 1, 2006 - 03:39 pm
I am active in the local hospice. Recently I attended a lecture by Dr. Ira Byock, Director of Palliative Medicine at Dartmouth Hitchcock Medical Center in New Hampshire. He says that in the Western civilization people have an aversion to thinking and talking about death. He asks that we strive to realize some meaning in death. He asks that we look for the meaning of existence.

To Byock death (or as he calls it, end-of-life) is central to the meaning and value of human life. He does not see death as the enemy.

Robby

Mallylee
May 2, 2006 - 01:04 am
Scrawler I sometimes wonder that too. I imagine all the buildings and motorways rotting away and being slowly covered with growing things. The Chernobyl area has apparently flourished since the disaster with wild living things enjoying the new freedom from man.

Mallylee
May 2, 2006 - 01:07 am
I see it that way too Robby, because without the tragedy of mortality we would not be able to decide a time scale for our lives, and would be extremely bored without the parameters of birth and death. It;s only transience that could make us appreciate what exists

robert b. iadeluca
May 2, 2006 - 04:04 am
"If we take as the standard of high organisation, the amount of differentiation and specialisation of the several organs in each being when adult -- and this will include the advancement of the brain for intellectual purposes -- natural selection clearly leads towards this standard.

"All physiologists admit that the specialisation of organs -- inasmuch as in this state they perform their functions better -- is an advantage to each being.

"Hence the accumulation of variations tending towards specialisation is within the scope of natural selection.

"On the other hand, we can see -- bearing in mind that all organic beings are striving to increase at a high ratio and to seize on every unoccupied or less well occupied place in the economy of nature -- that it is quite possible for natural selection gradually to fit a being to a situation in which several organs would be superfluous or useless.

"In such cases there would be retrogression in the scale of organisation.

"Whether organisation on the whole has actually advanced from the remotest geological periods to the present day will be more conveniently discussed in our chapter on Geological Succession."

Darwin defines "high organization" as the amount to which each organ in an adult being starts to differ and specialize. When he says "organ," he includes the brain. If an organ specializes, he says, it is functioning better. Therefore the being has an advantage.

Natural Selection, he says, leads to the accumulattion of varieties and specialization.

While all this is happening, each being is striving to live and reproduce and is occupying every "friendly" spot of land. In adapting to certain environments, some of the original organs within certain beings would become useless and would gradually disappear.

He will apparently talk more about various environments when he gets to talking about Geology.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
May 2, 2006 - 04:49 pm
"But it may be objected that if all organic beings thus tend to rise in the scale, how is it that throughout the world a multitude of the lowest forms still exist?

"And how is it that in each great class some forms are far more highly developed than others?

"Why have not the more highly developed forms everywhere supplanted and exterminated the lower?

"Lamarck -- who believed in an innate and inevitable tendency towards perfection in all organic beings -- seems to have felt this difficulty so strongly, that he was led to suppose that new and simple forms are continually being produced by spontaneous generation. Science has not as yet proved the truth of this belief, whatever the future may reveal.

"On our theory the continued existence of lowly organisms offers no difficulty. For natural selection, or the survival of the fittest, does not necessarily include progressive development- it only takes advantage of such variations as arise and are beneficial to each creature under its complex relations of life.

"It may be asked what advantage, as far as we can see, would it be to an infusorian animalcule- to an intestinal worm- or even to an earthworm, to be highly organised.

"If it were no advantage, these forms would be left -- by natural selection, unimproved or but little improved -- and might remain for indefinite ages in their present lowly condition.

"Geology tells us that some of the lowest forms, as the infusoria and rhizopods, have remained for an enormous period in nearly their present state.

"But to suppose that most of the many now existing low forms have not in the least advanced since the first dawn of life would be extremely rash. Every naturalist who has dissected some of the beings now ranked as very low in the scale, must have been struck with their really wondrous and beautiful organisation."

Darwin tells us that Lamarck believed that an innate power gradually moved organisms step by step progressively toward perfection. Why, then, Darwin asks, were there more and more lowly forms according to Lamarck. Lamarck's theory was that these new lowly forms were produced spontaneously.

Darwin's theory does not believe in progression. As indicated in earlier paragraphs, Natural Selection takes advantage of whatever new varieties may arise and are beneficial to the organism, whatever level it may be.

Darwin again refers to Geological research which has shown that some of these lowly forms have remained almost identical throughout millennia. I say "almost" because naturalists have found high forms of organization even in low forms of life.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
May 3, 2006 - 02:37 am
Comments, anyone?

Robby

Bubble
May 3, 2006 - 02:41 am
I am reading at present The 7 Eves, and I find that the description about anaemic sickle blood cells and their influence on malaria, is a good illustration of what is siad here. Although after the benefits against malaria they remain present even where there is no malaria...

Scrawler
May 3, 2006 - 09:23 am
Perhaps this is why we still have cockroaches. In our minds they may be lowly creatures, but in the natural selection they have survived.

Mallylee
May 4, 2006 - 12:28 am
There is this recent research that finds a process that superficially resembles Lamarckism.

In this process that is related to sexual reproduction, learned experience is passed on to progeny. However, the difference between this, and Lamarckism, is that while Lamarckism holds that the body proper is altered in the progeny of an individual that has learned something during its life, there is this other process by which only te genetic material is altered.

I will try to find a link.The BBC has a link which is easy to understand

robert b. iadeluca
May 4, 2006 - 03:26 am
"Nearly the same remarks are applicable if we look to the different grades of organisation within the same great group ----for instance, in the vertebrata, to the co-existence of mammals and fish -- amongst mammalia, to the coexistence of man and the Ornithorhynchus -- amongst fishes, to the co-existence of the shark and the lancelet (Amphioxus), which latter fish in the extreme simplicity of its structure approaches the invertebrate classes.

"But mammals and fish hardly come into competition with each other. The advancement of the whole class of mammals -- or of certain members in this class -- to the highest grade would not lead to their taking the place of fishes.

"Physiologists believe that the brain must be bathed by warm blood to be highly active, and this requires aerial respiration. So that warm-blooded mammals when inhabiting the water lie under a disadvantage in having to come continually to the surface to breathe.

"With fishes, members of the shark family would not tend to supplant the lancelet. For the lancelet, as I hear from Fritz Muller, has as sole companion and competitor on the barren sandy shore of South Brazil, an anomalous annelid.

"The three lowest orders of mammals -- namely, marsupials, edentata, and rodents -- co-exist in South America in the same region with numerous monkeys, and probably interfere little with each other.

"Although organisation, on the whole, may have advanced and be still advancing throughout the world, yet the scale will always present many degrees of perfection. For the high advancement of certain whole classes -- or of certain members of each class -- does not at all necessarily lead to the extinction of those groups with which they do not enter into close competition.

"In some cases, as we shall hereafter see, lowly organised forms appear to have been preserved to the present day, from inhabiting confined or peculiar stations, where they have been subjected to less severe competition, and where their scanty numbers have retarded the chance of favourable variations arising."

If I understand this paragraph correctly, Darwin is comparing different species which have different stages of "advancement" and their ability to live together in the same environment without competing with each other. In these various cases he does not see one specie taking the place of another.

Anyone here with a different interpretation?

Robby

Mallylee
May 4, 2006 - 03:31 am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/ghostgenes.shtml

Mallylee
May 4, 2006 - 03:34 am
That's how it seems to me too Robby

robert b. iadeluca
May 5, 2006 - 04:17 am
"Finally, I believe that many lowly organised forms now exist throughout the world, from various causes.

"In some cases variations or individual differences of a favourable nature may never have arisen for natural selection to act on and accumulate.

"In no case, probably, has time sufficed for the utmost possible amount of development. In some few cases there has been what we must call retrogression of organisation.

"But the main cause lies in the fact that under very simple conditions of life a high organisation would be of no service,- possibly would be of actual disservice, as being of a more delicate nature, and more liable to be put out of order and injured."

Darwin brings up an important point here. He says that there were many possible different kinds of changes or modifications in varieties that just never occurred. There was no opportunity for Nature to select (Natural Selection), Life is a crap shoot.

He also emphasizes the importance of time. Maybe no change has occurred because "only" a million years have gone by. Maybe in another million (or so) years a new variety might have come into existence.

He speaks also of "retrogression of organization." If I understand that correctly, that means that something that was fairly highly developed changed back into a more primary organization. Under the concept of "survival of the fittest," that would mean to me that the primary form was more beneficial.

Your thoughts on this?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
May 5, 2006 - 05:22 am
"possibly would be of actual disservice, as being of a more delicate nature, and more liable to be put out of order and injured."

People are getting taller and taller especially in the West. Yesterday I saw a man of about 35 at the drug store who was over seven feet tall and he was a very sick man according to how many prescription drugs he left with.

robert b. iadeluca
May 7, 2006 - 05:07 am
"Looking to the first dawn of life -- when all organic beings, as we may believe, presented the simplest structure -- how, it has been asked, could the first steps in the advancement or differentiation of parts have arisen?

"Mr. Herbert Spencer would probably answer that -- as soon as simple unicellular organism came by growth or division to be compounded of several cells -- or became attached to any supporting surface -- his law "that homologous units of any order become differentiated in proportion as their relations to incident forces" would come into action.

"But as we have no facts to guide us, speculation on the subject is almost useless.

"It is, however, an error to suppose that there would be no struggle for existence -- and, consequently, no natural selection until many forms had been produced.

"Variations in a single species inhabiting an isolated station might be beneficial. Thus the whole mass of individuals might be modified, or two distinct forms might arise.

"But, as I remarked towards the close of the Introduction, no one ought to feel surprise at much remaining as yet unexplained on the origin of species. Make due allowance for our profound ignorance on the mutual relations of the inhabitants of the world at the present time, and still more so during past ages."

Darwin is now beginning to ask the type of questions that may have upset the population of his period. He talks about the "first dawn of time." He says that all organic beings at that time had just the "simplest structure." That, of course, goes against believers of various religions. But he continues on with that premise and as there must always be a premise introducing an "argument," we will follow along with his.

Wondering what could have been the first steps in advancement from a simple cell, or how it could have taken place, Darwin merely says that speculation is useless as we have no facts about life at that time.

He says, however, that even if all the organisms at that time were just one-celled, there still would have been changes and a "struggle for existence." Environments would have been different and variations would have come into existence to meet the needs of the environments. Thus even the one-celled organisms would have ended up being different. Or a certain new variety would have gradually have become radically different from the others and, in effect, have become a new specie.

All this being possibly so, he warns us to be cautious and remind ourselves that not only do we know little about relationships between organisms currently in existence, but obviously much much less about organisms that existed "way back there" and are no longer with us.

Robby

Scrawler
May 7, 2006 - 08:49 am
Do I understand correctly that Darwin sugests that all organisms came from a single-cell organism at the dawn of light?

robert b. iadeluca
May 7, 2006 - 09:13 am
Scrawler:-Each of us will have to interpret Darwin's first sentence here in our own way. What do the rest of you think? How about you lurkers?

Robby

Bubble
May 7, 2006 - 09:31 am
it seems very plausible that all have one common ancestor.

Mippy
May 8, 2006 - 01:11 pm
I don't think it is quite that straightforward.
Not everything alive today necessarily evolved from one single cell, IMO.

At the dawn of life (dawn of light, was an interesting interpretation)
molecules may have joined together into the building blocks of life.
These "blocks" may have been proto-proteins, proto-RNA, and proto-DNA.
(I hope mentioning RNA is allowed; we've mentioned DNA several times)
Different proto-cells may have been functional as cells, more or less at the same
time, with different configurations of the building blocks,
and the proto-cells may not all have been successful in dividing into many cells.
There is a further step, evolving from a single-celled organism into a multi-cellular organism, but that is too far away from this paragraph of Darwin's to elaborate on at this time.

Robby ~ Does the above address your question?

robert b. iadeluca
May 8, 2006 - 05:45 pm
Mippy, you may have answered the question but with facts that were not available to Darwin.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
May 8, 2006 - 05:46 pm
Convergence of Character

robert b. iadeluca
May 8, 2006 - 06:05 pm
"Mr. H. C. Watson thinks that I have overrated the importance of divergence of character -- in which, however, he apparently believes -- and that convergence, as it may be called, has likewise played a part.

"If two species -- belonging to two distinct though allied genera -- had both produced a large number of new and divergent forms, it is conceivable that these might approach each other so closely that they would have all to be classed under the same genus. Thus the descendants of two distinct genera would converge into one.

"But it would in most cases be extremely rash to attribute to convergence a close and general similarity of structure in the modified descendants of widely distinct forms.

"The shape of a crystal is determined solely by the molecular forces. It is not surprising that dissimilar substances should sometimes assume the same form.

"With organic beings we should bear in mind that the form of each depends on an infinitude of complex relations -- namely on the variations which have arisen -- these being due to causes far too intricate to be followed out on the nature of the variations which have been preserved or selected.

"This depends on the surrounding physical conditions, and in a still higher degree on the surrounding organisms with which each being has come into competition.

"Lastly, on inheritance (in itself a fluctuating element) from innumerable progenitors, all of which have had their forms determined through equally complex relations.

"It is incredible that the descendants of two organisms -- which had originally differed in a marked manner -- should ever afterwards converge so closely as to lead to a near approach to identity throughout their whole organisation.

"If this had occurred, we should meet with the same form, independently of genetic connection, recurring in widely separated geological formations. The balance of evidence is opposed to any such an admission."

If I understand correctly, Darwin in the past has spoken of "divergence", i.e. organisms becoming different. Now he speaks of "convergence, i.e. different organisms appearing to be similar.

It is possible, he says, that two species could appear so similar that they might be considered one specie. Biological organisms, he says, are complex. Items which should be taken into consideration are inheritance, environment, and the "battle for life" between the organisms.

This complexity being so, it is highly unlikely that two organims would end up being almost identical.

As I read that, I think of fingerprints. I am told that there are no two absolutely alike.

Robby

Bubble
May 9, 2006 - 12:14 am
The nervures of a leaf are very much like fingerprints. Apparently there too, they are all different, or so said my botany teacher. Bubble

Mallylee
May 9, 2006 - 01:34 am
If animal breeders tried to make a two species nearly converge, this could be useful to humans. Labrador dogs more nearly approach seals than for instance collie dogs. Labs love swimming and have sleek coats and quite seal-shaped heads.

Genetic engineering has actually converged species. I dont see how it would be impossible for species to converge in nature, given long time spans, genetic mutations and struggle for existence. Perhaps the mysterioisu mitochondria would forever prove an individual to belong to one species or another.

I have speculated far beyong what Darwin could have meant. Is it okay to speculate, or should i be interpreting only?

robert b. iadeluca
May 9, 2006 - 02:17 am
I see nothing wrong with any of us speculating but let us not get beyond the knowledge that existed in Darwin's time. Depending on the interest and continuance of the reading of this book, I can see where we would move on to Darwin's "Descent of Man." In reading that book there could be much speculating.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
May 9, 2006 - 03:04 am
"Mr. Watson has also objected that the continued action of natural selection -- together with divergence of character -- would tend to make an indefinite number of specific forms.

"As far as mere inorganic conditions are concerned, it seems probable that a sufficient number of species would soon become adapted to all considerable diversities of heat, moisture, &c..

"But I fully admit that the mutual relations of organic beings are more important. As the number of species in any country goes on increasing, the organic conditions of life must become more and more complex.

"Consequently there seems at first sight no limit to the amount of profitable diversification of structure, and therefore no limit to the number of species which might be produced.

"We do not know that even the most prolific area is fully stocked with specific forms. At the Cape of Good Hope and in Australia, which support such an astonishing number of species, many European plants have become naturalised.

"But geology shows us, that from an early part of the tertiary period the number of species of shells and that from the middle part of this same period the number of mammals, has not greatly or at all increased.

"What then checks an indefinite increase in the number of species? The amount of life (I do not mean the number of specific forms) supported on an area must have a limit, depending so largely as it does on physical conditions.

"Therefore, if an area be inhabited by very many species, each or nearly each species will be represented by few individuals; and such species will be liable to extermination from accidental fluctuations in the nature of the seasons or in the number of their enemies.

"The process of extermination in such cases would be rapid, whereas the production of new species must always be slow.

"Imagine the extreme case of as many species as individuals in England, and the first severe winter or very dry summer would exterminate thousands on thousands of species.

"Rare species -- and each species will become rare if the number of species in any country becomes indefinitely increased -- will, on the principle often explained, present within a given period few favourable variations. Consequently, the process of giving birth to new specific forms would thus be retarded.

"When any species becomes very rare, close interbreeding will help to exterminate it. Authors have thought that this comes into play in accounting for the deterioration of the aurochs in Lithuania, of red deer in Scotland, and of bears in Norway, &e.

"Lastly, and this I am inclined to think is the most important element -- a dominant species, which has already beaten many competitors in its own home, will tend to spread and supplant many others. Alph. de Candolle has shown that those species which spread widely, tend generally to spread very widely. Consequently, they will tend to supplant and exterminate several species in several areas, and thus check the inordinate increase of specific forms throughout the world.

"Dr. Hooker has recently shown that in the S.E. corner of Australia -- where, apparently, there are many invaders from different quarters of the globe -- the endemic Australian species have been greatly reduced in number. How much weight to attribute to these several considerations I will not pretend to say; but conjointly they must limit in each country the tendency to an indefinite augmentation of specific forms."

Darwin, if I understand this correctly, believes that most species would be able to adapt to just about every type of environment. However, he considers the relationships between organisms more important than the relationship between an organism and the environment. As species developed, diversified, amd became more complex, they would become stronger in their ability to survive. It would seem, Darwin then says, that theoretically there is no limit to the number of species.

In areas where there appear to be a prolific number of different species, there could be even more. He asks, then, what is it that checks the constant indefinite increase of species? A particular environment can support only so many different species. Each of these species would have only a few individual organisms representing it. The answer, he says, is "geology."

In the struggle for life, where there are only a few individuals representing specific species, death would come rapidly from heat, extreme cold, lack of moisture, etc. Rare species would become even more rare. At the same time, the increase in the number of species arrives slowly.

Darwin adds that interbreeding among rare species hastens the death of the species. I don't understand that.

Of interest (to me) is his statement that species which are dominant (stronger than other species) become even stronger and take over more territory. The strong become stronger and spread more widely and the weak become weaker and usually die.

There's a story here somewhere.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
May 10, 2006 - 02:44 am
Summary of Chapter

robert b. iadeluca
May 10, 2006 - 03:20 am
We are in the process of ending this chapter which is called "Natural Selection or the Survival of the Fittest." I would like to hear comments from everyone here (including lurkers) even if your comment is nothing but "I haven't the slightest idea what this is all about!"

"If under changing conditions of life organic beings present individual differences in almost every part of their structure -- and this cannot be disputed -- if there be, owing to their geometrical rate of increase, a severe struggle for life at some age, season, or year -- and this certainly cannot be disputed -- then, considering the infinite complexity of the relations of all organic beings to each other and to their conditions of life -- causing an infinite diversity in structure, constitution, and habits, to be advantageous to them -- it would be a most extraordinary fact if no variations had ever occurred useful to each being's own welfare, in the same manner as so many variations have occurred useful to man.

"But if variations useful to any organic being ever do occur, assuredly individuals thus characterised will have the best chance of being preserved in the struggle for life. From the strong principle of inheritance, these will tend to produce offspring similarly characterised.

"This principle of preservation, or the survival of the fittest, I have called Natural Selection.

"It leads to the improvement of each creature in relation to its organic and inorganic conditions of life, and consequently, in most cases, to what must be regarded as an advance in organisation.

"Nevertheless, low and simple forms will long endure if well fitted for their simple conditions of life."

All right. What has Darwin been saying in this past chapter? He is saying, in my interpretation, that every part of every structure of an organism continues to tend toward individual differences.

He also says that organisms increase on a rapid geometrical basis and therefore there is an ongoing struggle for life.

He therefore concludes that a percentage of these differences (variations) would be of benefit to the organisms. This would be so because of the complexity of the many kinds of relationships -- the relations of the different beings to each other in terms of their structure, their constitution, their habits, etc. -- and the relations of the different beings to their many different kinds of environments -- the heat, the cold, the moisture, the dryness, etc.

Those beings that have developed variations of benefit to themselves would naturally be the ones which survive in the ongoing "struggle for life." Following the Principle of Inheritance, these beneficial variations would pass down to the offspring. Darwin calls this Natural Selection. It leads to the improvement of each organism in many ways including the "advancement" of the various structures of the organism.

Although low and simple organisms may not seem advanced, they often do continue to survive through the millennia because they are suited to their particular environment.

What are your thoughts, folks?

Robby

Mallylee
May 10, 2006 - 06:07 am
'Survival of the fittest' is a tautology. I prefer to think of this component of the natural selection process as having had ancestors who survived the struggle for existence long enough to produce young

Malryn
May 10, 2006 - 06:33 am
" 'Within each of us — our skeletons, our behavior, and deep within our DNA — lurks our distant past. Make the relevant comparisons and we find that our hands resemble fossil fish fins, our heads are organized like long-extinct jawless fish, and major parts of our genomes look and function like those of worms and bacteria. We unlock our history as we understand more about our DNA, as we compare ourselves to animals living and dead, and as we discover new fossils from around the world. With all of this history in our bodies, we are most definitely not designed 'intelligently.' Our chances of developing certain cancers, hernias, bad backs, injured knees, and even hiccups are the result of the history that we share with fish, worms, and clams.

" 'We live in an age of discovery where the classic stories of evolution have become the focus of vigorous new approaches from genetics and developmental biology. Breakthroughs in genetics are beginning to tell us how bodies are built, in essence giving insights into the recipe that builds animals from a single celled egg. Couple these breakthroughs with the remarkable fossil discoveries of the past decade, and we have opportunity to present a new worldview of the human body.'
"Shubin startled the world on March 31 with the announcement in the journal Science of the discovery of Tiktaalik, ' mosaic of primitive fish and derived amphibian' His moment of realization occurred while digging fish bones out of rocks on a snowy July afternoon.
" 'While studying 380 million year old rocks in Ellesmere Island, at a latitude of 80 North, I was uncovering one of the key transitional stages in the shift from fish to land living animal. Everybody knows that fish swim with fins and animals that walk on land have legs. I was in the Arctic to learn how this shift happened. The fish I was uncovering had a wrist and fingers. A fish with wrists and fingers? I was immediately struck that this fossil reveals a very deep branch of my evolutionary tree. This is the origin of my wrists and fingers. Huddled in the tent during prolonged Arctic storms, it occurred to me that 3.5 billion years in the history of life are embedded in my own body. ' "


MORE: Neil Shubin's comments about evolution

JudytheKay
May 10, 2006 - 06:38 am
I like Darwin's own words in his summary of the chapter in his original edition (which I am reading). Makes sense to me - check it out.

JudytheKay

Mippy
May 10, 2006 - 07:33 am
Mallylee ~
I agree with you, that producing young -- young which are viable -- is the key! Excellent point!

To re-emphasize: not all variations trend toward improvement of a given species. Some variations make the species less fit. Variation is a random process.
I'm sure Darwin said that somewhere; This is a big problem, IMO, of reading paragraph by paragraph, when trying to find a previous quotation.

Here's a brief synopsis of an article from the Tuesday Boston Globe, which I cannot find on-line; it's there, somewhere ...

The Tropics Teem with Diverse Life
"Why is life so diverse in the tropics? ... [it's] almost boundless in its variety,
but ... toward the poles ... it gets less varied."

A study was done by scientists from the Univ. of Auckland, NZ, which found that tropical plants had accumulated more changes than those in temperate zones.
Species appear to evolve more quickly in warm climates than in cold ones.
Published in PNAS, May 2006; this is one of the most respected peer-reviewed publications.

Scrawler
May 10, 2006 - 09:39 am
As I understand it, Darwin is saying that on the one hand each organism may be different, but each struggles for survival in the same way and that if our parents are lucky enough to survive to have young that that species will not die.

robert b. iadeluca
May 10, 2006 - 03:33 pm
Mippy, you said: "To re-emphasize: not all variations trend toward improvement of a given species. Some variations make the species less fit. Variation is a random process. I'm sure Darwin said that somewhere."

In the last post of Darwin's text he said: "It would be a most extraordinary fact if no variations had ever occurred useful to each being's own welfare."

I interpret that to mean what you said. He implied that at times random variations occurred that were useful. The implication is that other times they were not an improvement.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
May 11, 2006 - 03:07 am
"Natural selection, on the principle of qualities being inherited at corresponding ages, can modify the egg, seed, or young, as easily as the adult.

"Amongst many animals, sexual selection will have given its aid to ordinary selection, by assuring to the most vigorous and best adapted males the greatest number of offspring.

"Sexual selection will also give characters useful to the males alone, in their struggles or rivalry with other males; and these characters will be transmitted to one sex or to both sexes, according to the form of inheritance which prevails."

I would consider this paragraph exceedingly important. As I am understanding it, any biological organism in any form or at any stage of its development can change and through the process of natural selection can survive or die.

Those males who survive over other males will pass on their survival traits not only to male offspring but to female offspring as well.

A brief paragraph but a powerful one.

Robby

Bubble
May 11, 2006 - 07:00 am
hybrids in nature

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060511/ap_on_sc/hybrid_bear_4

Mallylee
May 11, 2006 - 09:00 am
When a new, stronger male lion takes over the pride, he kills all the cubs sired by his predecessor

Bubble
May 11, 2006 - 10:01 am
Wild cats, gutter cats do the same: they kill all MALE kittens that they can approach. I have seen that very often.

robert b. iadeluca
May 12, 2006 - 05:14 am
"Whether natural selection has really thus acted in adapting the various forms of life to their several conditions and stations, must be judged by the general tenor and balance of evidence given in the following chapters.

"But we have already seen how it entails extinction. How largely extinction has acted in the world's history, geology plainly declares.

"Natural selection also leads to divergence of character. The more organic beings diverge in structure, habits, and constitution, by so much the more can a large number be supported on the area. We see proof by looking to the inhabitants of any small spot, and to the productions naturalised in foreign lands.

"Therefore, during the modification of the descendants of any one species, and during the incessant struggle of all species to increase in numbers, the more diversified the descendants become, the better will be their chance of success in the battle for life.

"Thus the small differences distinguishing varieties of the same species, steadily tend to increase, till they equal the greater differences between species of the same genus, or even of distinct genera."

Darwin calls our attention to the fact that geological excavations have shown us that there were many organisms alive eons ago which are now extinct. Very simply -- different species of plants and animals live and plants and animals die. He also calls our attention to the different kinds of varities which existed and that apparently divergence enabled these organisms to thrive.

I like his phrase "the incessant struggle of all species to increase in numbers" followed by "diversification of descendants." There is no doubt that the human population on this planet is increasing. And as we look at the red, brown, white, black and in-between color of the faces, we see diversification.

Any comments?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
May 13, 2006 - 04:25 am
"We have seen that it is the common -- the widely-diffused and widely-ranging species -- belonging to the larger genera within each class, which vary most.

"These tend to transmit to their modified offspring that superiority which now makes them dominant in their own countries. Natural selection, as has just been remarked, leads to divergence of character and to much extinction of the less improved and intermediate forms of life.

"On these principles, the nature of the affinities, and the generally well-defined distinctions between the innumerable organic beings in each class throughout the world, may be explained.

"It is a truly wonderful fact- the wonder of which we are apt to overlook from familiarity- that all animals and all plants throughout all time and space should be related to each other in groups, subordinate to groups -- in the manner which we everywhere behold -- namely, varieties of the same species most closely related -- species of the same genus less closely and unequally related -- forming sections and sub-genera, species of distinct genera much less closely related -- and genera related in different degrees, forming sub-families, families, orders, sub-classes and classes.

"The several subordinate groups in any class cannot be ranked in a single file -- but seem clustered round points, and these round other points -- and so on in almost endless cycles.

"If species had been independently created, no explanation would have been possible of this kind of classification.

"It is explained through inheritance and the complex action of natural selection, entailing extinction and divergence of character, as we have seen illustrated in the diagram."

Darwin is nearing the end of the chapter and is summarizing what we have already learned from him.

Natural Selection, he tells us, leads to divergence and to the death of those species which did not inherit superior traits. Using his chart, he showed us that these various species and varieties are related to each other.

And now Darwin makes the claim that many people find difficult or impossible to believe. That there could be no explanation of the relationship of the different species or varieties if, as stated in Genesis, species had been independently created.

Now that the chapter is being summarized, what thoughts do you people have?

Robby

Mallylee
May 13, 2006 - 07:06 am
"Thus the small differences distinguishing varieties of the same species, steadily tend to increase, till they equal the greater differences between species of the same genus, or even of distinct genera."

What did Darwin know of fossil bones of extinct animals? Sea-living animals came on land, where some remained and became distinct species of land animals. The recently discovered missing link that was discovered in Canada, the one with the Eskimo name----begins with a T--- is evidence. This sea animal has wrist bones as I remember.

Mallylee
May 13, 2006 - 07:13 am
"We have seen that it is the common -- the widely-diffused and widely-ranging species -- belonging to the larger genera within each class, which vary most.

I wonder what criteria of variation were used for the hierarchies. Common sense idea is that differences in how food is ingested, how reproduction takes place, how bones are adapted to swimming, climbing, gripping, speed, are critera.But I wonder if modern genetics has made any major revisions in the old hierarchies, or if modern genetics endorses them.

robert b. iadeluca
May 13, 2006 - 07:32 am
Mallylee:-You are referring to the "fish" named Tiktaalik, which has incipient wrists and fingers. It was discussed in the article linked for us by Mal in Post 489. Neil Shubin discusess the difference between fish and tetrapods. I read this article thoroughly from beginning to end and it blew my mind!! The theory is that these aquatic organsims began to build these "land limbs and joints" while still in the sea, not after crawling up onto land.

I recommend (yea, urge!) everyone here to read it. It helps us to better understand what Darwin is telling us.

Robby

Bubble
May 13, 2006 - 07:55 am
Maybe they practiced on the ocean bed?

robert b. iadeluca
May 13, 2006 - 08:19 am
Bubble:-That's not as silly as it sounds. Did you read Shubin's article?

Robby

Bubble
May 13, 2006 - 08:39 am
I meant it seriously. Some fish and sea creatures make their living with food found on the seabed.

I read it when it was published, I did not re-read just now.

Mallylee
May 13, 2006 - 09:24 am
Re : my #501

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1773188,00.html

Geneticists revised which family this little monkey belongs to

robert b. iadeluca
May 14, 2006 - 07:39 am
This is the final paragraph of Chapter Four which was entitled "Natural Selection or the Survival of the Fittest. Come out of hiding, lurkers, and others here -- what are your thoughts at this time.

"The affinities of all the beings of the same class have sometimes been represented by a great tree. I believe this simile largely speaks the truth.

"The green and budding twigs may represent existing species.

"Those produced during former years may represent the long succession of extinct species.

"At each period of growth all the growing twigs have tried to branch out on all sides, and to overtop and kill the surrounding twigs and branches. In the same manner species and groups of species have at all times overmastered other species in the great battle for life.

"The limbs, divided into great branches, and these into lesser and lesser branches, were themselves once, when the tree was young, budding twigs. This connection of the former and present buds by ramifying branches may well represent the classification of all extinct and living species in groups subordinate to groups.

"Of the many twigs which flourished when the tree was a mere bush, only two or three, now grown into great branches, yet survive and bear the other branches. So with the species which lived during long-past geological periods very few have left living and modified descendants.

"From the first growth of the tree, many a limb and branch has decayed and dropped off. These fallen branches of various sizes may represent those whole orders, families, and genera which have now no living representatives, and which are known to us only in a fossil state.

"As we here and there see a thin straggling branch springing from a fork low down in a tree, and which by some chance has been favoured and is still alive on its summit, so we occasionally see an animal like the Ornithorhynchus or Lepidosiren, which in some small degree connects by its affinities to large branches of life, and which has apparently been saved from fatal competition by having inhabited a protected station.

"As buds give rise by growth to fresh buds, and these, if vigorous, branch out and overtop on all sides many a feebler branch -- so by generation I believe it has been with the great Tree of Life, which fills with its dead and broken branches the crust of the earth, and covers the surface with its everbranching and beautiful ramifications."

I don't believe I need to interpret the simile of a tree. As we bring this chapter to an end and prepare for the next chapter, tell us where you stand regarding Natural Selection and Survival of the Fittest.

Robby

Bubble
May 14, 2006 - 09:22 am
Darwin is very convincing and it is hard to see how it could be otherwise.

The knowledge accumulated since also point in the same direction. It is extraordinary the vision of that man, while most of the same period had a different view.

I liked very much his image of the tree of life. After all we also mage genealogical family trees. Bubble

Scrawler
May 14, 2006 - 03:51 pm
I've been in the process of testing Darwin's theory of Natural Selection. I have allowed my garden to grow what it wants to grow with as little interference from me as possible. So far I've been surprised that what I thought would not grow well - like thin stemed ferns etc are doing just fine and some of the thicker plants and grasses are dying off. Perhaps it has more to do with soil and climate as anything else but it certainly gives me a clue as to what Darwin was talking about when he describes Natural Selection.

robert b. iadeluca
May 14, 2006 - 06:00 pm
What a great idea, Scrawler!! You can be our resident laboratory technician as we move step by step through Darwin's theories.

Robby

Mallylee
May 14, 2006 - 11:10 pm
Scrawler how wise you are to go with the flow of natural selection I am all for it!

robert b. iadeluca
May 15, 2006 - 04:06 am
Let me pause to hear comments by both participants and lurkers (if there are any left) on Darwin's Tree of Life in Post 507.

Robby

Maryboree
May 15, 2006 - 07:22 am
All I can say is that I'm enjoying this and feeling guilty for not being able to participate in the discussion because if it were not for Robby, Mallylee, Bubble, and others here tranlating this into English that I understand, I would just move on to another subject. Darwin tells it like it is.... it can't get better than that. And I'm still hangin' in.

Maryboree
May 15, 2006 - 08:20 am
Scrawler --

I know exactly what you are talking about. I now live in So. Florida and have struggled to have a decent patch of lawn. One needs tons of fertilizer and water (which is a waste of matural resource we need to conserve). It is a constant struggle and if we leave it to nature to do its natural thing, I doubt that there would be a blade of grass, as we know it, here. Little by little, all the mistakes Man has made in "correcting" nature is slowly reversing itself. Look what has happened with our Everglades where we are now spending millions to correct the damage. We can't fight Mother nature in the long run. Servival of the fittest makes sense.

JudytheKay
May 15, 2006 - 08:47 am
I commented on this end of chapter once before but will echo Bubble's post #508 - "Darwin is very convincing and it is hard to see how it could be otherwise."

JudytheKay

robert b. iadeluca
May 15, 2006 - 03:35 pm
CHAPTER FIVE

Laws of Variation

robert b. iadeluca
May 15, 2006 - 04:00 pm
"I HAVE hitherto sometimes spoken as if the variations -- so common and multiform with organic beings under domestication, and in a lesser degree with those under nature -- were due to chance.

"This, of course, is a wholly incorrect expression, but it serves to acknowledge plainly our ignorance of the cause of each particular variation.

"Some authors believe it to be as much the function of the reproductive system to produce individual differences -- or slight deviations of structure -- as to make the child like its parents.

"But the fact of variations and monstrosities occurring much more frequently under domestication than under nature -- and the greater variability of species having wider ranges than of those with restricted ranges -- lead to the conclusion that variability is generally related to the conditions of life to which each species has been exposed during several successive generations.

"In the first chapter I attempted to show that changed conditions act in two ways -- directly on the whole organisation or on certain parts alone -- and indirectly through the reproductive system.

"In all cases there are two factors -- the nature of the organism, which is much the most important of the two -- and the nature of the conditions.

"The direct action of changed conditions leads to definite or indefinite results. In the latter case the organisation seems to become plastic, and we have much fluctuating variability. In the former case the nature of the organism is such that it yields readily -- when subjected to certain conditions -- and all, or nearly all the individuals become modified in the same way."

Darwin admits that earlier he said that variations were due to chance. He has since come to the conclusion that this is not so. In fact, he adds, we don't know why each variation come into being.

Some naturalists, he says, believe that the reproductive system of each organism not only has to do with causing the offspring to look like its parents but also has to do with the variations that come into existence.

Darwin differs. He looks at the plants and animals under domestication. Under cultivation, he says, there are greater numbers of variations. He attributes this to the environment of a garden, for example, being different from the environment in nature. Plants change generation after generation in a well-kept garden which is so different from nature.

It's the old nature vs nurture argument. Which is more important when discussing changes that occur in plants and animals? Darwin places his money on the internal structure of the organism which reacts to the environment.

I may have messed this all up. What do you people think?

Robby

JoanK
May 15, 2006 - 04:14 pm
Not a comment on Robby, but the following may be of interest.

I caught a program late last night about an area in the South west corner of Australia where patches of the native bush remain interrupted by areas of farmland. They said that evolution was proceeding at an unusually fast rate there.

Either they didn't explain very well, or because I couldn't follow some of the Australian accent, but I never understood why. But the farmland in between areas of bush created a situation like on islands, where the evolutionary changes occurring in one patch couldn't spread over the farmland barriers. Each patch of brush was developing distinct new plants and animals (insects, grubs etc).

So they (whoever they were) were buying up as many intervening farms as the could, and returning them to brush land, deliberately seeding them with a mixture of the new plant species.

Mallylee
May 16, 2006 - 02:41 am
I understand that Darwin knew nothing about 'random' mutations of genes. He has noticed that in artificial environments there are more 'variations and monstrosities', and also that variations of natural environment correlate with more varieties. So he concludes that there is a causal connection between variation in environment and variation within a species.

and indirectly through the reproductive system. Does this imply that |Darwin does understand something of genetics? Or does this imply that Darwin is referring to accidents during fertilisation and ripening, (or impregnation and pregnancy)?

As always when i am reading something difficult I hope that it will come clear as I read on. Also when we read something difficult, very often some point will be interesting and comprehensible, and this point of clarity serves as a focus for related ideas to enlighten us.

robert b. iadeluca
May 16, 2006 - 05:25 pm
"It is very difficult to decide how far changed conditions, such as of climate, food, &c., have acted in a definite manner.

"There is reason to believe that in the course of time the effects have been greater than can be proved by clear evidence.

"But we may safely conclude that the innumerable complex co-adaptations of structure, which we see throughout nature between various organic beings, cannot be attributed simply to such action.

"In the following cases the conditions seem to have produced some slight definite effect.

"E. Forbes asserts that shells at their southern limit -- and when living in shallow water -- are more brightly coloured than those of the same species from further north or from a greater depth. But this certainly does not always hold good.

"Mr. Gould believes that birds of the same species are more brightly coloured under a clear atmosphere, than when living near the coast or on islands.

"Wollaston is convinced that residence near the sea affects the colours of insects.

"Moquin-Tandon gives a list of plants which, when growing near the sea-shore, have their leaves in some degree fleshy, though not elsewhere fleshy.

"These slightly varying organisms are interesting in as far as they present characters analogous to those possessed by the species which are confined to similar conditions."

Darwin is not sure just how much effect the environment has on various organisms. However, he tends to believe that there is a strong effect.

He gives various examples but at the moment they seem, to him, to be circumstantial evidence.

Robby

Mallylee
May 17, 2006 - 01:37 am
I agree Robby. However, I am not sure whether or not Darwin is writing about characteristics acquired through natural selection, which depends on acquisition through the reproductive channel, and not through characteristics acquired during the individual's life, for instance a tanned skin in humans exposed to much sunlight.

Some human individuals'skins remain tanned all through their lives, this may be true also of their offspring if they too have outdoor occupations.

I am not suggestiong that Darwin was wavering towards Lamarckism, but what Darwin writes here could just as easily have been written by Lamarck.

robert b. iadeluca
May 17, 2006 - 03:01 am
"Instances could be given of similar varieties being produced from the same species under external conditions of life as different as can well be conceived. On the other hand, of dissimilar varieties being produced under apparently the same external conditions.

"Again, innumerable instances are known to every naturalist, of species keeping true, or not varying at all, although living under the most opposite climates.

"Such considerations as these incline me to lay less weight on the direct action of the surrounding conditions, than on a tendency to vary, due to causes of which we are quite ignorant.

"In one sense the conditions of life may be said -- not only to cause variability, either directly or indirectly, but likewise to include natural selection -- for the conditions determine whether this or that variety shall survive.

"But when man is the selecting agent, we clearly see that the two elements of change are distinct. Variability is in some manner excited, but it is the will of man which accumulates the variations in certain directions.

"It is this latter agency which answers to the survival of the fittest under nature."

I'm not sure so help me here. Darwin is telling us that all sorts of results can happen. The same flower, for example, from the same variety can find itself in an entirely different environment and continue exactly as before. On the other hand, in the same environment different varieties arise. And there are occasions where a flower in both hot and cold or wet and dry environments still continuing true to itself.

This leads Darwin to placing less emphasis on the environment than on other causes of which he pleads ignorance. (DNA?)

He does acknowledge that the environment may have much to do with whether an organism lives or dies. And this is definitely true in nature. But he sees the influence of man as important in moving organisms in certain directions.

Yes? No?

Robby

Mallylee
May 17, 2006 - 03:20 am
"Instances could be given of similar varieties being produced from the same species under external conditions of life as different as can well be conceived. On the other hand, of dissimilar varieties being produced under apparently the same external conditions

Oh, right. So this has no application to Lamarckism;Lamarck whose theory was that individuals who acquired characteristics in their lifetimes could then pass these on to their offspring. Not all African plains animals who browse off tall trees got to grow long necks like giraffes.

"Such considerations as these incline me to lay less weight on the direct action of the surrounding conditions, than on a tendency to vary, due to causes of which we are quite ignorant.

What a pity he never met Mendel.

"But when man is the selecting agent, we clearly see that the two elements of change are distinct. Variability is in some manner excited, but it is the will of man which accumulates the variations in certain directions.

"It is this latter agency which answers to the survival of the fittest under nature."


By 'answers to' I think that Darwin may equally have written 'illustrates'. I think so too, that artificial selection does show up how environmental conditions may favour, or not as the case may be, how accidental variations may be promoted by the environment provided: that is, provided by man in the case of artificial selection, and provided by nature in the case of natural selection.

Bubble
May 17, 2006 - 03:37 am
Man being more extreme in his selective methods than nature, the changes and variations occurs more rapidly when he interferes.

Scrawler
May 17, 2006 - 01:41 pm
Didn't Darwin mention some place that plants and animals adjust to their surrounding enviornment? Would this also play a part in the Natural selection?

Mallylee
May 18, 2006 - 12:41 am
I cut this out of today's Guardian, from a report on a new class of antibiotics, because it illustrates the process of natural selection in the staphylococcus aureus and other bacteria.

Most classes of antibiotics were discovered in the 1940s and 50s and work by interfering with the formation of a bacterium's walls, proteins or DNA, so that it cannot reproduce and spread. But, as bacteria reproduce, their DNA mutates, which can make them immune to the interference of drugs. As the use of antibiotics has risen in the past few decades, so has the number of pathogenic bacteria that have developed resistance to them

In this case, the bacterium's natural environment includes the hazard of a human product, antibiotics.This hazard acts as a seive to screen out the bacteria that dont have the antibiotic-resistant mutation.But the antibiotic-resistant mutations survive the environmental hazard of antibiotic, and reproduce themselves.Hence MRSA.

The presence in the bacterium's environment of antibiotic adds to the variety of its environment, and tends to encourage the retention in the strain of whatever variation benefits the propagation of the bacterium variety.

robert b. iadeluca
May 18, 2006 - 03:20 am
Scrawler:-I'm not sure of the answer to your question. Maybe someone here can tell us.

Mallylee:-An excellent example of the influence of the environment. If Darwin only knew how the meaning of the term environment would expand.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
May 18, 2006 - 03:22 am
Effects of the increased Use and Disuse of Parts, as controlled by Natural Selection

robert b. iadeluca
May 18, 2006 - 03:46 am
"From the facts alluded to in the first chapter, I think there can be no doubt that use in our domestic animals has strengthened and enlarged certain parts, and disuse diminished them -- and that such modifications are inherited.

"Under free nature, we have no standard of comparison, by which to judge of the effects of long-continued use or disuse. We know not the parent-forms. But many animals possess structures which can be best explained by the effects of disuse.

"As Professor Owen has remarked, there is no greater anomaly in nature than a bird that cannot fly; yet there are several in this state. The logger-headed duck of South America can only flap along the surface of the water -- and has its wings in nearly the same condition as the domestic Aylesbury duck. It is a remarkable fact that the young birds, according to Mr. Cunningham, can fly, while the adults have lost this power.

"As the larger ground-feeding birds seldom take flight except to escape danger, it is probable that the nearly wingless condition of several birds -- now inhabiting or which lately inhabited several oceanic islands, tenanted by no beast of prey -- has been caused by disuse.

"The ostrich indeed inhabits continents, and is exposed to danger from which it cannot escape by flight -- but it can defend itself by kicking its enemies, as efficiently as many quadrupeds.

"We may believe that the progenitor of the ostrich genus had habits like those of the bustard -- and that, as the size and weight of its body were increased during successive generations, its legs were used more, and its wings less -- until they became incapable of flight."

Darwin reminds us that if various organs in a body are not used, they they gradually lose their ability to function. I imagine that the appendix is an example. Surgeons routinely remove the appendix if they happen to be working on that part of the body. It is useless. I have no idea what the appendix originally did.

We have no idea because the gradual change from functional to non-functional was changed in nature over a period of eons. We have no way to measure.

But in the case of domestic animals, Darwin says, we are able to measure. We remember from Chapter One how man could change pigeons over a comparatively short period of time.

Darwin quotes Owen as finding it extraordinary that an organism would develop wings and not be able to fly. The apparent conclusion was that it could originally fly but again over a period of eons use the wings less and less. Practically every one knows the expression "Use it or lose it." I wonder how many people who know that expression realize that they are talking in evolutionary terms.

Robby

Mallylee
May 18, 2006 - 02:29 pm
This page sounds to me like pure Lamarckism: inheritance of acquired characteristics.

Charles Darwin proposed a theory of evolution in 1859 and one of its major problems was a lack of coherent hereditary mechanism. Darwin believed in a mix of blending inheritance and the inheritance of acquired characteristics (pangenesis). Blending inheritance would lead to uniformity across populations in only a few generations and thus would remove variation from a population on which natural selection could act. This led to Darwin adopting some Lamarckian ideas in later editions of The Origin and his later biological works. Darwin's primary approach to heredity was to outline how it appeared to work (noticing that characteristics could be inherited which were not expressed explicitly in the parent at the time of reproduction, that certain characteristics could be sex-linked, etc.) rather than suggesting mechanisms.

Googling turns up quite a lot about how Darwin had Lamarckian tendencies.Sorry. I cannot find the source that I got the above from;it was some dictionary.

The following is a short and simple account of Darwin's theory, which mentions Lamarckism in Darwin's theory

http://www.answers.com/topic/pangenesis

Mallylee
May 19, 2006 - 12:04 pm
Acquired characteristics.

acquired characteristics, modifications produced in an individual plant or animal as a result of mutilation, disease, use and disuse, or any distinctly environmental influence. Some examples are docking of tails, malformation caused by disease, and muscle atrophy. The belief in the inheritability of acquired characteristics, proposed by the French biologist Jean-Baptiste Lamarck in 1809, was widely accepted at one time, but is now rejected. Geneticists have affirmed that inheritance is determined solely by the reproductive cells and is unaffected by somatic (body) cells.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

robert b. iadeluca
May 20, 2006 - 02:42 am
I got to thinking. Don't these lyrics of "As Time Goes By" tell the story of evolution? Time, of course, measured in millennia. It's still the same old story.

And no matter what the progress
Or what may yet be proved
The simple facts of life are such
They cannot be removed.

You must remember this
A kiss is just a kiss, a sigh is just a sigh.
The fundamental things apply
As time goes by.

And when two lovers woo
They still say, "I love you."
On that you can rely
No matter what the future brings
As time goes by.

Moonlight and love songs
Never out of date.
Hearts full of passion
Jealousy and hate.
Woman needs man
And man must have his mate
That no one can deny.

It's still the same old story
A fight for love and glory
A case of do or die.
The world will always welcome lovers
As time goes by.

robert b. iadeluca
May 20, 2006 - 02:56 am
"Kirby has remarked (and I have observed the same fact) that the anterior tarsi, or feet, of many male dung-feeding beetles are often broken off. He examined seventeen specimens in his own collection, and not one had even a relic left.

"In the Onites apelles the tarsi are so habitually lost, that the insect has been described as not having them.

"In some other genera they are present, but in a rudimentary condition.

"In the Ateuchus, or sacred beetle of the Egyptians, they are totally deficient.

"The evidence that accidental mutilations can be inherited is at present not decisive. But the remarkable cases observed by Brown-Sequard in guinea-pigs, of the inherited effects of operations, should make us cautious in denying this tendency.

"Hence it will perhaps be safest to look at the entire absence of the anterior tarsi in Ateuchus, and their rudimentary condition in some other genera, not as cases of inherited mutilations, but as due to the effects of long-continued disuse. For as many dung-feeding beetles are generally found with their tarsi lost, this must happen early in life. Therefore the tarsi cannot be of much importance or be much used by these insects."

Darwin is cautious about saying that mutilations can be inherited. He is still open to accepting this.

Better to think in terms of various organs not being used over extended periods of time. And again -- "use it or lose it."

Robby

Mallylee
May 20, 2006 - 07:43 am
A pleasure to remember this song,its melody, and to read all the words. Romantic love, although much influenced by cultural traditions of romantic love, still originates in sexual attraction

Mallylee
May 20, 2006 - 07:45 am
I have found these latest pages particularly useful, because I had not understood that Darwin had believed in acquired characteristics, as well as in natural selection

robert b. iadeluca
May 20, 2006 - 12:42 pm
Mallylee:-It is not my understanding that his belief is as such. I believe he is being cautious and has not come to a conclusion yet.

Robby

Malryn
May 21, 2006 - 01:23 am

"Can evolution make things less complicated?"

robert b. iadeluca
May 21, 2006 - 03:39 am
Intriguing link, Mal. Makes one think.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
May 22, 2006 - 03:34 am
"In some cases we might easily put down to disuse modifications of structure which are wholly, or mainly, due to natural selection.

"Mr. Wollaston has discovered the remarkable fact that 200 beetles, out of the 550 species (but more are now known) inhabiting Madeira, are so far deficient in wings that they cannot fly. That, of the twenty-nine endemic genera, no less than twenty-three have all their species in this condition!

"Several facts, namely, that beetles in many parts of the world are frequently blown to sea and perish. That the beetles in Madeira, as observed by Mr. Wollaston, lie much concealed, until the wind lulls and the sun shines.

"That the proportion of wingless beetles is larger on the exposed Desertas than in Madeira itself.

"Especially the extraordinary fact, so strongly insisted on by Mr. Wollaston, that certain large groups of beetles -- elsewhere excessively numerous, which absolutely require the use of their wings -- are here almost entirely absent.

"These several considerations make me believe that the wingless condition of so many Madeira beetles is mainly due to the action of natural selection, combined probably with disuse.

"For during many successive generations each individual beetle which flew least, either from its wings having been ever so little less perfectly developed or from indolent habit, will have had the best chance of surviving from not being blown out to sea. On the other hand, those beetles which most readily took to flight would oftenest have been blown to sea, and thus destroyed."

Natural Selection plus disuse of certain organs? What do you folks, think?

Robby

Mallylee
May 22, 2006 - 07:35 am
Disuse of bits of the body leading to alterations in the reproductive cells? I dont think so. This is Lamarckism, and Lamarckism is not credited today. I can only go along with modern thought on this.

Scrawler
May 22, 2006 - 11:34 am
I can see where if certain beetles "didn't" use their wings for flight, but instead laid in the sun and concealed themselves from the wind that they would survive. If food was available, why would they want to fly away and perhaps be destroyed in the wind and sea? I'm not saying that the beetle is a "thinking" animal or insect, but I'm saying that I believe that every living organism tries in its own way to survive. I doubt that plants, insects, and animals go out of their way to be murdered. Isn't there something in all of us that makes all of us want to live and rather than perish adapt to our surroundings?

robert b. iadeluca
May 22, 2006 - 05:26 pm
"The insects in Madeira which are not ground-feeders, and which -- as certain flower-feeding coleoptera and lepidoptera, must habitually use their wings to gain their subsistence -- have, as Mr. Wollaston suspects, their wings not at all reduced, but even enlarged. This is quite compatible with the action of natural selection.

"For when a new insect first arrived on the island, the tendency of natural selection to enlarge or to reduce the wings, would depend on whether a greater number of individuals were saved by successfully battling with the winds -- or by giving up the attempt and rarely or never flying.

"As with mariners shipwrecked near a coast, it would have been better for the good swimmers if they had been able to swim still further, whereas it would have been better for the bad swimmers if they had not been able to swim at all and had stuck to the wreck."

Each to his own method of survival.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
May 23, 2006 - 03:40 am
"The eyes of moles and of some burrowing rodents are rudimentary in size, and in some cases are quite covered by skin and fur.

"This state of the eyes is probably due to gradual reduction from disuse, but aided perhaps by natural selection.

"In South America, a burrowing rodent, the tucotuco, or Ctenomys, is even more subterranean in its habits than the mole. I was assured by a Spaniard, who had often caught them, that they were frequently blind.

"One which I kept alive was certainly in this condition, the cause, as appeared on dissection, having been inflammation of the nictitating membrane. As frequent inflammation of the eyes must be injurious to any animal -- and as eyes are certainly not necessary to animals having subterranean habits -- a reduction in their size, with the adhesion of the eyelids and growth of fur over them, might in such case be an advantage. If so, natural selection would aid the effects of disuse.

"It is well known that several animals, belonging to the most different classes, which inhabit the caves of Carniola and of Kentucky, are blind. In some of the crabs the foot-stalk for the eye remains, though the eye is gone -- the stand for the telescope is there, though the telescope with its glasses has been lost.

"As it is difficult to imagine that eyes, though useless, could be in any way injurious to animals living in darkness, their loss may be attributed to disuse.

"In one of the blind animals, namely, the cave-rat (Noetoma), two of which were captured by Professor Silliman at above half a mile distance from the mouth of the cave -- and therefore not in the profoundest depths -- the eyes were lustrous and of large size. These animals, as I am informed by Professor Silliman, after having been exposed for about a month to a graduated light, acquired a dim perception of objects."

Interesting how, in the case of the cave rat, eyes which were "blind" due to disuse, gradually could see light from increasing use. Works in both directions.

Your comments on this paragraph, please?

Robby

Malryn
May 23, 2006 - 06:00 am

In the case of Polio, because the central nervous system is affected by the disease, the signal from the brain to various muscles is blocked, and the muscle becomes paralyzed. Added to that is the fact that muscles atrophy when they are not used.

I've had the experience in the past and just recently where in muscle tests there will be a trace of a movement of a muscle. The physio-therapist begins exercising that muscle, and signs of a small "rejuvenation" will often be seen.

Mal

Mallylee
May 23, 2006 - 11:40 am
There is a difference between organs atrophying, or reviving their function, and these alterations then altering the reproductive cells.

Unless the reproductive cells are altered there will be no effect on the species from any atrophy or hypertrophy of the body proper

robert b. iadeluca
May 23, 2006 - 03:45 pm
It's a real pleasure to read the reactions of everyone here. Boy, are we getting knowledgeable about evolution!! Darwin would be proud of us.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
May 23, 2006 - 05:07 pm
"It is difficult to imagine conditions of life more similar than deep limestone caverns under a nearly similar climate.

"So that -- in accordance with the old view of the blind animals having been separately created for the American and European caverns -- very close similarity in their organisation and affinities might have been expected.

"This is certainly not the case if we look at the two whole faunas.

"With respect to the insects alone, Schiodte has remarked, "We are accordingly prevented from considering the entire phenomenon in any other light than something purely local -- and the similarity which is exhibited in a few forms between the Mammoth cave (in Kentucky) and the caves in Carniola -- otherwise than as a very plain expression of that analogy which subsists generally between the fauna of Europe and of North America."

"On my view we must suppose that American animals, having in most cases ordinary powers of vision, slowly migrated by successive generations from the outer world into the deeper and deeper recesses of the Kentucky caves, as did European animals into the caves of Europe.

"We have some evidence of this gradation of habit.

"As Schiodte remarks, 'We accordingly look upon the subterranean faunas as small ramifications which have penetrated into the earth from the geographically limited faunas of the adjacent tracts -- and which, as they extended themselves into darkness, have been accommodated to surrounding circumstances. Animals not far remote from ordinary forms, prepare the transition from light to darkness. Next follow those that are constructed for twilight; and, last of all, those destined for total darkness, and whose formation is quite peculiar.'

"These remarks of Schiodte's it should be understood, apply not to the same, but to distinct species.

"By the time that an animal had reached -- after numberless generations -- the deepest recesses, disuse will on this view have more or less perfectly obliterated its eyes. Natural selection will often have effected other changes, such as an increase in the length of the antennae or palpi, as a compensation for blindness.

"Notwithstanding such modifications, we might expect still to see in the cave-animals of America, affinities to the other inhabitants of that continent -- and in those of Europe to the inhabitants of the European continent.

"And this is the case with some of the American cave-animals, as I hear from Professor Dana. Some, of the European cave insects are very closely allied to those of the surrounding country. It would be difficult to give any rational explanation of the affinities of the blind cave-animals to the other inhabitants of the two continents on the ordinary view of their independent creation.

"That several of the inhabitants of the caves of the Old and New Worlds should be closely related, we might expect from the well-known relationship of most of their other productions. As a blind species of Bathyscia is found in abundance on shady rocks far from caves, the loss of vision in the cave-species of this one genus has probably had no relation to its dark habitation.

"It is natural that an insect already deprived of vision should readily become adapted to dark caverns. Another blind genus (Anophthaimus) offers this remarkable peculiarity, that the species, as Mr. Murray observes, have not as yet been found anywhere except in caves.

"Yet those which inhabit the several eaves of Europe and America are distinct. It is possible that the progenitors of these several species, whilst they were furnished with eyes, may formerly have ranged over both continents -- and then have become extinct -- excepting in their present secluded abodes.

"Far from feeling surprise that some of the cave-animals should be very anomalous -- as Agassiz has remarked in regard to the blind fish, the Amblyopsis, and as is the case with blind Proteus with reference to the reptiles of Europe -- I am only surprised that more wrecks of ancient life have not been preserved, owing to the less severe competition to which the scanty inhabitants of these dark abodes will have been exposed."

Help me, folks. How do you "translate" or "interpret" this?

Robby

Bubble
May 24, 2006 - 01:11 am
Darwin does like to use circumvoluted sentences! I read it four times and it is still obtuse.

In same conditions of weather and same type of deep caves the fauna should show the same characteristics on both continents. Sometimes it does and sometimes it does not. One can usually see also transitional stades to these characteristics, some of them extincts except in some tiny locations.

Then Darwin looses me... lol

robert b. iadeluca
May 24, 2006 - 01:58 am
Isn't it interesting that most of us here can understand the logic behind his theory of evolution as we move along? What we can't understand is the English language.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
May 24, 2006 - 02:06 am
Acclimatisation

robert b. iadeluca
May 24, 2006 - 02:29 am
"Habit is hereditary with plants -- as in the period of flowering -- in the time of sleep -- in the amount of rain requisite for seeds to germinate, &c. -- and this leads me to say a few words on acclimatisation.

"As it is extremely common for distinct species belonging to the same genus to inhabit hot and cold countries -- if it be true that all the species of the same genus are descended from a single parent-form, acclimatisation must be readily effected during a long course of descent.

"It is notorious that each species is adapted to the climate of its own home. Species from an arctic or even from a temperate region cannot endure a tropical climate, or conversely. So again, many succulent plants cannot endure a damp climate.

"But the degree of adaptation of species to the climates under which they live is often overrated. We may infer this from our frequent inability to predict whether or not an imported plant will endure our climate -- and from the number of plants and animals brought from different countries which are here perfectly healthy.

"We have reason to believe that species in a state of nature are closely limited in their ranges by the competition of other organic beings quite as much as, or more than, by adaptation to particular climates. But whether or not this adaptation is in most cases very close, we have evidence with some few plants, of their becoming -- to a certain extent -- naturally habituated to different temperatures.

"They become acclimatised.

"Thus the pines and rhododendrons -- raised from seed collected by Dr. Hooker from the same species growing at different heights on the Himalaya -- were found to possess in this country different constitutional powers of resisting cold.

"Mr. Thwaites informs me that he has observed similar facts in Ceylon. Analogous observations have been made by Mr. H. C. Watson on European species of plants brought from the Azores to England. I could give other cases.

"In regard to animals, several authentic instances could be adduced of species having largely extended -- within historical times -- their range from warmer to cooler latitudes -- and conversely.

"But we do not positively know that these animals were strictly adapted to their native climate, though in all ordinary cases we assume such to be the case. Nor do we know that they have subsequently become specially acclimatised to their new homes, so as to be better fitted for them than they were at first."

Let's see if I have this straight. Specific types of plants tend to follow the same procedures (habits) -- flower at the same time -- close their petals or leaves at the same time -- require the same amount of rain to germinate the seeds.

As the millennia passed, the climate had a definite effect on the plants. The plants adapted themselves to a specific climate.

If they are taken to a climate which is entirely different, they sometimes die. I insert the word "sometimes" because Darwin says there are cases where the plant continues to thrive even in a different type of climate. We never know if this is going to happen or not. What happens in these cases, he says, is that the plant becomes acclimatized to the new and different climate. They develop what he calls "constitutional powers."

He believes the same is true of animals but is not sure.

Robby

Scrawler
May 24, 2006 - 10:53 am
As far as language is concerned, I think one problem we are having is that Darwin, like many authors from Britain in the 19th century, spoke in the King's English. The language was different from our own "Yankee" speech and on occasion one sentence can sometimes take up an entire paragraph with a lot of flowery words. Even American authors during the 19th century wrote with flowery words.

What do you suppose Darwin meant when he said: "...American animals having ordinary powers of vision...?"

Also, I have found here in Portland, Oregon [where it rains nine months out of the year] succulent plants can grow very well. But perhaps this is one of those exceptions.

robert b. iadeluca
May 24, 2006 - 05:48 pm
Scrawler:-Darwin had been talking about blind animals so I interpret that to mean animals who can see.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
May 24, 2006 - 06:23 pm
As we may infer that our domestic animals were originally chosen by uncivilised man because they were useful and because they bred readily under confinement -- and not because they were subsequently found capable of far-extended transportation.

"The common and extraordinary capacity in our domestic animals of not only withstanding the most different climates, but of being perfectly fertile (a far severer test) under them, may be used as an argument that a large proportion of other animals now in a state of nature could easily be brought to bear widely different climates.

"We must not, however, push the foregoing argument too far, on account of the probable origin of some of our domestic animals from several wild stocks. The blood, for instance, of a tropical and arctic wolf may perhaps be mingled in our domestic breeds.

"The rat and mouse cannot be considered as domestic animals, but they have been transported by man to many parts of the world, and now have a far wider range than any other rodent. They live under the cold climate of Faroe in the north and of the Falklands in the south, and on many an island in the torrid zones.

"Hence adaptation to any special climate may be looked at as a quality readily grafted on an innate wide flexibility of constitution, common to most animals.

"On this view, the capacity of enduring the most different climates by man himself and by his domestic animals -- and the fact of the extinct elephant and rhinoceros having formerly endured a glacial climate, whereas the living species are now all tropical or sub-tropical in their habits -- ought not to be looked at as anomalies, but as examples of a very common flexibility of constitution, brought, under peculiar circumstances, into action."

Here is what I get. Uncivilized man domesticaled some animals because it was found that they bred easily under confinement. Many of these domesticated animals can withstand different kinds of climate. One could therefore say, according to Darwin, that many other animals living in nature could also learn how to withstand different climates.

He adds that we be cautious about this. He cites examples of arctic wolves and tropical wolves being able to breed with dogs. Rats and mice can be found everywhere. He adds that elephants and rhinoceroseseses (I stutter) used to live in cold climates.

He attributes this to what he calls the flexibility of the constitutions of the various organisms.

Robby

Mallylee
May 25, 2006 - 12:52 am
------ an argument that a large proportion of other animals now in a state of nature could easily be brought to bear widely different climates

It's remarkable how a good wildlife park can keep some species in captivity until they reach a good old age.

However, this does not go for dolphins and orcas who are kept in tanks. These species inhabit vast areas of cold deep waters, and they die after a short time when they are kept captive in tanks

robert b. iadeluca
May 25, 2006 - 03:39 am
"How much of the acclimatisation of species to any peculiar climate is due to mere habit, and how much to the natural selection of varieties having different innate constitutions, and how much to both means combined, is an obscure question.

"That habit or custom has some influence, I must believe, both from analogy and from the incessant advice given in agricultural works, even in the ancient encyclopaedias of China -- to be very cautious in transporting animals from one district to another.

"And as it is not likely that man should have succeeded in selecting so many breeds and sub-breeds with constitutions specially fitted for their own districts, the result must, I think, be due to habit.

"On the other hand, natural selection would inevitably tend to preserve those individuals which were born with constitutions best adapted to any country which they inhabited.

"In treatises on many kinds of cultivated plants, certain varieties are said to withstand certain climates better than others. This is strikingly shown in works on fruit-trees published in the United States, in which certain varieties are habitually recommended for the northern and others for the southern States. As most of these varieties are of recent origin, they cannot owe their constitutional differences to habit. The case of the Jerusalem artichoke -- which is never propagated in England by seed, and of which consequently new varieties have not been produced -- has even been advanced, as proving that acclimatisation cannot be effected, for it is now as tender as ever it was! The case, also, of the kidney-bean has been often cited for a similar purpose, and with much greater weight. Until someone will sow, during a score of generations, his kidney-beans so early that a very large proportion are destroyed by frost -- and then collect seed from the few survivors, with care to prevent accidental crosses -- and then again get seed from these seedlings, with the same precautions -- the experiment cannot be said to have been tried.

"Nor let it be supposed that differences in the constitution of seedling kidney-beans never appear, for an account has been published how much more hardy some seedlings are than others. Of this fact I have myself observed striking instances.

"On the whole, we may conclude that habit, or use and disuse, have, in some cases, played a considerable part in the modification of the constitution and structure -- but that the effects have often been largely combined with, and sometimes overmastered by -- the natural selection of innate variations."

Darwin gives examples of what he calls plant changes due to Natural Selection, not "habit."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
May 25, 2006 - 03:47 pm
"How much of the acclimatisation of species to any peculiar climate is due to mere habit -- and how much to the natural selection of varieties having different innate constitutions -- and how much to both means combined -- is an obscure question.

"That habit or custom has some influence, I must believe -- both from analogy and from the incessant advice given in agricultural works, even in the ancient encyclopaedias of China -- to be very cautious in transporting animals from one district to another.

"And as it is not likely that man should have succeeded in selecting so many breeds and sub-breeds with constitutions specially fitted for their own districts, the result must, I think, be due to habit.

"On the other hand, natural selection would inevitably tend to preserve those individuals which were born with constitutions best adapted to any country which they inhabited.

"In treatises on many kinds of cultivated plants, certain varieties are said to withstand certain climates better than others. This is strikingly shown in works on fruit-trees published in the United States -- in which certain varieties are habitually recommended for the northern and others for the southern States. As most of these varieties are of recent origin, they cannot owe their constitutional differences to habit.

"The case of the Jerusalem artichoke -- which is never propagated in England by seed, and of which consequently new varieties have not been produced -- has even been advanced, as proving that acclimatisation cannot be effected. It is now as tender as ever it was!

"The case, also, of the kidney-bean has been often cited for a similar purpose, and with much greater weight. Until someone will sow, during a score of generations, his kidney-beans so early that a very large proportion are destroyed by frost -- and then collect seed from the few survivors, with care to prevent accidental crosses -- and then again get seed from these seedlings, with the same precautions -- the experiment cannot be said to have been tried.

"Nor let it be supposed that differences in the constitution of seedling kidney-beans never appear. An account has been published how much more hardy some seedlings are than others. Of this fact I have myself observed striking instances.

On the whole, we may conclude that habit -- or use and disuse -- have, in some cases, played a considerable part in the modification of the constitution and structure. The effects have often been largely combined with, and sometimes overmastered by, the natural selection of innate variations."

If I get this correctly, Darwin is saying the Natural Selection has more effect than use vs disuse.

Robby

Mallylee
May 26, 2006 - 01:22 am
Maybe some species or varieties just happen to have attributes that suit them to foreign climes. I am thinking of furry animals who are native to hot climates, and who can live comfortably in wildlife parks in cool wet England. I dont know how a zoologist would explain how this can be, but my guess is that such animals' furry coats, whatever use they were to the animals in their warm forests and savannas, keep them insulated against England's cool ,sometimes cold, wet weather.

Bubble
May 26, 2006 - 01:53 am
Furry coat can also insulate against fiery sun.

Look at the Arab nomads wearing long superposed robes - and not tight trousers- of thick cotton in the desert. The layers insulate and the robes permit air to circulate.

robert b. iadeluca
May 26, 2006 - 03:00 am
Correlated Variation

robert b. iadeluca
May 26, 2006 - 03:11 am
"I mean by this expression that the whole organisation is so tied together during its growth and development -- that when slight variations in any one part occur, and are accumulated through natural selection -- other parts become modified.

"This is a very important subject, most imperfectly understood. No doubt wholly different classes of facts may be here easily confounded together.

"We shall presently see that simple inheritance often gives the false appearance of correlation.

"One of the most obvious real cases is, that variations of structure arising in the young or larvae naturally tend to affect the structure of the mature animal.

"The several parts of the body which are homologous -- and which, at an early embryonic period, are identical in structure -- and which are necessarily exposed to similar conditions, seem eminently liable to vary in a like manner.

"We see this in the right and left sides of the body varying in the same manner -- in the front and hind legs -- and even in the jaws and limbs, varying together. The lower jaw is believed by some anatomists to be homologous with the limbs.

"These tendencies, I do not doubt, may be mastered more or less completely by natural selection. Thus a family of stags once existed with an antler only on one side. If this had been of any great use to the breed, it might probably have been rendered permanent by selection."

I believe that Darwin is telling us that when one organ or part of the body is changed in some way, that the entire body adapts through change of some sort. The analogy that comes to my mind is family dynamics. If only one member of the family changes -- starts drinking, recovers from alcoholism, becomes depressed, etc. etc. -- that other family members do not remain the same but adapt accordingly.

These changes in the entire structure tend to pass down to the offspring.

Robby

Bubble
May 26, 2006 - 04:24 am
But he is talking about physical changes: limbs, jaws, antlers. Surely alcoolism cannot be passed from dad to son?

robert b. iadeluca
May 26, 2006 - 04:40 am
Yes, the genetic pre-disposition toward alcoholism can be passed from father to son.

However, I was not emphasizing so much that, as pointing out that just one part changing (organ within a body, member within a family) can affect the entire structure. This is what Marriage and Family Counselors call "family dynamics."

Robby

Scrawler
May 26, 2006 - 11:12 am
I can't help wonder if this also might be true of plants as well. Perhaps this is why certain plants survive and others become extinct.

Mallylee
May 26, 2006 - 12:10 pm
Yes, and I understand that encocrine activity , or lack of it, can cause differences in bone growth, gigantism, or hairiness, also personality type such as thyroid function is at least a part cause of.

So if some specific mode of endocrine activity is inherited, the effects of it appear in the physique or mentality of the individual

robert b. iadeluca
May 29, 2006 - 05:06 am
"Homologous parts, as has been remarked by some authors, tend to cohere. This is often seen in monstrous plants. And nothing is more common than the union of homologous parts in normal structures, as in the union of the petals into a tube.

"Hard parts seem to affect the form of adjoining soft parts. It is believed by some authors that with birds the diversity in the shape of the pelvis causes the remarkable diversity in the shape of their kidneys.

"Others believe that the shape of the pelvis in the human mother influences by pressure the shape of the head of the child.

"In snakes, according to Schlegel, the form of the body and the manner of swallowing determine the position and form of several of the most important viscera."

The dictionary tells us that the term "homologous" in biological use means "having the same evolutionary origin but serving different functions, e.g. the wing of a bat and the arm of a man." Darwin tells us that homologous parts tend to cohere, meaning sticking together and resisting separation. He gives as an example, the sticking of petals together.

He adds that hard parts affect nearby soft parts, an example being the shape of the human mother's pelvis affecting the shape of the head of the child.

I'm sure we'll have some comments here.

Robby

Bubble
May 29, 2006 - 07:01 am
I am wondering about the pelvis having an influence on the head of babies; especially when that baby has his head moving around as he turns and twists. And it can't be the act of birthing by making the head pass through that narrow passage that has an influence, since babies born by C-section have the same shape of head.

I never knew birds differed so much in kidney shapes. Would someone born with a twisted pelvis have odd shaped kidneys? Interesting.

Mallylee
May 29, 2006 - 11:03 am
I don'tknow whether or not Darwin is saying that a baby's skull is slightly maleable due directly to the shape of the mother's pelvis, or whether a baby's skull is maleable due to natural selection favouring babies with maleable skulls

robert b. iadeluca
May 29, 2006 - 04:45 pm
"The nature of the bond is frequently quite obscure.

"Isidore Geoffroy St-Hilaire has forcibly remarked that certain malconformations frequently, and that others rarely, co-exist, without our being able assign any reason.

"What can be more singular than the relation in cats between complete whiteness and blue eyes with deafness -- or between the tortoise-shell colour and the female sex -- or in pigeons between their feathered feet and skin betwixt the outer toes -- or between the presence of more or less down on the young pigeon when first hatched, with the future colour of its plumage.

"Or, again, the relation between the hair and teeth in the naked Turkish dog, though here no doubt homology comes into play?

"With respect to this latter case of correlation, I think it can hardly be accidental -- that the two orders of mammals which are most abnormal in their dermal covering, viz., Cetacea (whales) and Edentata (armadilloes, scaly ant-eaters, &c.,) are likewise on the whole the most abnormal in their teeth.

"But there are so many exceptions to this rule, as Mr. Mivart has remarked, that it has little value."

Any comments about correlation in different variations?

Robby

Bubble
May 30, 2006 - 12:02 am
mmmmm.... correlation of human males and hairiness? lol

Mallylee
May 30, 2006 - 12:32 am
http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/Tufts.htm

Pigment Genes and Hereditary Congenital Sensorineural Deafness An association between deafness and blue-eyed white cats was noted as early as 1828, and Darwin commented on it in his famous publication The Origin of Species in 1859. Blue-eyed Dalmatians were noted for having deafness as early as 1896. So, the existence of a relationship between white pigmentation and deafness in dogs and cats is not new, and there is an extensive bibliography on the subject (Refs 6-12), but the mechanism behind the relationship has only recently begun to be understood. Melanocytes, which produce pigment granules in skin, hair, and elsewhere, originate embryologically in the neural crest, the source of all neural cells, explaining the linkage between pigment and a neurologic disorder. Melanocytes produce pigment granules - either eumelanin (black or brown) or phaeomelanin (yellow or red) - from the amino acid tyrosine. Albinism, in which melanocytes are present but one of the enzymes responsible for melanin production (tyrosinase) is absent or diminished, does not have an association with deafness. Otherwise, white color results from an absence of melanin, usually from an absence of melanocytes.

Mallylee
May 30, 2006 - 12:57 am
http://www.wku.edu/~smithch/wallace/S165.htm

scroll down to 'The Use Of The Hairy Covering of Mammalia'

BTW, while googling I also found that most normal porn magazine pics of women are of unnaturally hairless women. If a woman doses on testosterone she tends to grow male- pattern hair distribution. Some women inherit more male-pattern hair than others, eg Mediterranean women

robert b. iadeluca
May 30, 2006 - 02:22 am
Mallylee:-Those are magnificent links -- very interesting!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
May 30, 2006 - 02:38 am
"I know of no case better adapted to show the importance of the laws of correlation and variation -- independently of utility and therefore of natural selection -- than that of the difference between the outer and inner flowers in some compositous and timbelliferous plants.

"Every one is familiar with the difference between the ray and central florets of, for instance, the daisy. This difference is often accompanied with the partial or complete abortion of the reproductive organs.

"But in some of these plants, the seeds also differ in shape and sculpture. These differences have sometimes been attributed to the pressure of the involuera on the florets, or to their mutual pressure. The shape of the seeds in the ray-florets of some Compositae countenances this idea.

"But with the Umbelliferae, it is by no means, as Dr. Hooker informs me, the species with the densest heads which most frequently differ in their inner and outer flowers.

"It might have been thought that the development of the ray-petals by drawing nourishment from the reproductive organs causes their abortion. But this can hardly be the sole cause, for in some Compositae the seeds of the outer and inner florets differ -- without any difference in the corolla.

"Possibly these several differences may be connected with the different flow of nutriment towards the central and external flowers. We know, at least, that with irregular flowers, those nearest to the axis are most subject to peloria, that is to become abnormally symmetrical.

"I may add -- as an instance of this fact, and as a striking case of correlation -- that in many pelargoniums, the two upper petals in the central flower of the truss often lose their patches of darker colour. When this occurs, the adherent nectary is quite aborted -- the central flower thus becoming peloric or regular.

"When the colour is absent from only one of the two upper petals, the nectary is not quite aborted but is much shortened."

Most of us here, certainly including myself, are not botanists. Speaking for myself, I will ignore the various Latin names of the different flowers.

What Darwin is doing here, as I understand it, is showing the difference between the outer and inner flowers of specific plants. As he says, we are all acquainted with the daisy. We see the difference between the small florets which make up the inner yellow "sun" and the larger white petals. What he is telling us (and I didn't know this) is that often they have no reproductive organs. One theory was that the petals drew nourishment from the reproductive organs. But of course, some of them must have reproductive organs or daisies would go out of existence.

Any horticulturists here? With the exception of Bubble and Mallylee, is there anyone at all here?

Robby

Mallylee
May 30, 2006 - 03:08 am
There will be lurkers Robby. Cast your bread on the waters

I had no idea that some daisies are sterile. Am not a botanist. I try to encourage daisies in my lawn, avoiding daisy clumps with the mower, but they dont spread: this could be why?

robert b. iadeluca
May 30, 2006 - 03:20 am
It would be nice if the water gurgled now and then.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
May 30, 2006 - 04:08 am
Robby, my poor brain can't keep up with this. I can barely skim the surface, it is all the time I have but I know how frustrating it must be for you. Thank you for your dedication.

robert b. iadeluca
May 30, 2006 - 04:18 am
Thank you, Eloise, for "gurgling." Anyone else?

Robby

JoanK
May 30, 2006 - 04:21 am
I'm here lurking. Keep on, oh fearless leader!!

robert b. iadeluca
May 30, 2006 - 04:31 am
I feel better now. For a while I thought there were just two or three of us climbing near a mountain top and nobody knew we were there.

And I suspect that even those who say they don't understand are gathering more info than they believe. None of us expects to become a Darwin.

Robby

Bubble
May 30, 2006 - 07:40 am
About daisies, sunflowers and similar I learned at school that each "flower is a multitude of flowers: the center are lots of small flowers close together which each give a seed very visible in the sunflower. The outer colorful flowers (each petal) have reduced reproductive organs.

Pelargonium is a large family comprising the geranium.

Mippy
May 30, 2006 - 11:38 am
That is correct, Bubble. Daisies are composites, and as you said, sunflowers, daisies, and other similar flowers have many, many reproductive organs, where the seeds of the flowers are formed.

Sterile "daisies" are like sterile animals: intervention, presumably by human horticulturalists, have created sterile crosses, which cannot form seed.

I do have some college background in botany, so ask away.
And Robby, do feel better ... your leadership is invaluable!

My absence in this group is actually horticulturally connected --
it's the time of year to plant the garden at Cape Cod (MA) and I've been so worn
out from spending hours in my garden, that my time on-line has been curtailed.

Scrawler
May 30, 2006 - 01:48 pm
Is it natural selection that gives us sterile flowers or does man have a hand in producing them? I can't help remember the hills around California where I grew up where one could see golden poppies for miles around. Unfortuantely, it's all gone now, replaced by cement fixtures.

robert b. iadeluca
May 30, 2006 - 05:40 pm
"With respect to the development of the corolla, Sprengel's idea that the ray-florets serve to attract insects -- whose agency is highly advantageous or necessary for the fertilisation of these plants -- is highly probable. If so, natural selection may have come into play.

"But with respect to the seeds, it seems impossible that their differences in shape, which are not always correlated with any difference in the corolla, can be in any way beneficial. Yet in the Umbelliferae these differences are of such apparent importance-- the seeds being sometimes orthospermous in the exterior flowers and coelospermous in the central flowers -- that the elder De Candolle founded his main divisions in the order on such characters.

"Hence modifications of structure -- viewed by systematists as of high value -- may be wholly due to the laws of variation and correlation, without being -- as far as we can judge -- of the slightest service to the species."

Any thoughts here?

Robby

Mallylee
May 31, 2006 - 12:52 am
I admire Darwin's minute and painstaking observations.Science is not all about sweeping and grand ideas, and it's so impressive that Darwin seems to have begun with these minute observations, and not with a grand hypothesis about natural selection

Bubble
May 31, 2006 - 01:34 am
Orthospermous : Having the seeds straight, as in the fruits of some umbelliferous plants; -- opposed to coelospermous. Sunflowers?

Coelospermous : Hollow-seeded; having the ventral face of the seedlike carpels incurved at the ends, as in coriander seed.

robert b. iadeluca
May 31, 2006 - 02:57 am
Thank you for that, Bubble. Except those of us who are already botanists, we are all learning a second language here.

Robby

suec
May 31, 2006 - 03:00 am
gurgle, gurgle.

robert b. iadeluca
May 31, 2006 - 03:07 am
"We may often falsely attribute to correlated variation structures which are common to whole groups of species -- and which in truth are simply due to inheritance.

"An ancient progenitor may have acquired through natural selection some one modification in structure -- and, after thousands of generations, some other and independent modification -- and these two modifications -- having been transmitted to a whole group of descendants with diverse habits -- would naturally be thought to be in some necessary manner correlated.

"Some other correlations are apparently due to the manner in which natural selection can alone act.

"For instance, Alph. de Candolle has remarked that winged seeds are never found in fruits which do not open. I should explain this rule by the impossibility of seeds gradually becoming winged through natural selection, unless the capsules were open. In this case alone could the seeds -- which were a little better adapted to be wafted by the wind -- gain an advantage over others less well fitted for wide dispersal."

I need some help here. Darwin has been trying to explain "correlated variation" to us. Here he is saying that we see some structures and think they are examples of correlated variation whereas they are simply due to "inheritance."

I don't quite get this.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
May 31, 2006 - 03:08 am
Thanks for the gurgle, Sue. Nice to know that my bread is being cast in your direction.

Robby

Bubble
May 31, 2006 - 03:27 am
Darwin says that winged seeds can only be possible if the fruit or capsule opens first to give freedom to those seeds. Closed capsule could not modify to get winged seeds - nuts?

But winged seeds not encapsulized are plentiful - dandelions puffs?
There is a tree too with one round seed and a wing that spirals while flying... sorry I can't remember its name in English. Here are some pictures of tree winged seeds

winged seeds

Boxelder seeds

robert b. iadeluca
May 31, 2006 - 02:01 pm
Compensation and Economy of Growth

robert b. iadeluca
May 31, 2006 - 02:11 pm
"The elder Geoffroy and Goethe propounded, at about the same time, their law of compensation or balancement of growth. As Goethe expressed it, "In order to spend on one side, nature is forced to economise on the other side."

"I think this holds true to a certain extent with our domestic productions. If nourishment flows to one part or organ in excess, it rarely flows, at least in excess, to another part. Thus it is difficult to get a cow to give much milk and to fatten readily.

"The same varieties of the cabbage do not yield abundant and nutritious foliage and a copious supply of oil-bearing seeds. When the seeds in our fruits become atrophied, the fruit itself gains largely in size and quality.

"In our poultry, a large tuft of feathers on the head is generally accompanied by a diminished comb -- and a large beard by diminished wattles.

"With species in a state of nature it can hardly be maintained that the law is of universal application. But many good observers, more especially botanists, believe in its truth.

"I will not, however, here give any instances, for I see hardly any way of distinguishing between the effects -- on the one hand, of a part being largely developed through natural selection and another and adjoining part being reduced by this same process or by disuse -- and on the other hand the actual withdrawal of nutriment from one part owing to the excess of growth in another and adjoining part."

A chicken is either great for meat or else for egg laying? A dog is either strong or a fast runner? A man is either brainy or an Atlas?

Something doesn't seem quite right here.

Robby

Bubble
June 1, 2006 - 03:06 am
Small brained and intelligent?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060531/sc_nm/science_hobbits_dc_1

"Scientists believe they become so small because of environmental conditions such as food shortages and a lack of predators."

Mallylee
June 1, 2006 - 03:10 am
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1787047,00.html

"So far eight species were found in the cave, all of them unknown to science," said biologist Hanan Dimantman. "Every species examined had no eyes, so they lost their sight due to evolution. "

Bubble
June 1, 2006 - 03:13 am
Thanks Mallylee! I have just read this in our local paper and could not find a translated link for here!

Imagine, a scorpion born without eyes... What an evolutionary change!

robert b. iadeluca
June 1, 2006 - 03:57 am
A Part developed in any species in an extraordinary degree or manner, in comparison with the same Part in allied Species, tends to be highly variable

robert b. iadeluca
June 1, 2006 - 04:11 am
"Several years ago I was much struck by a remark, to the above effect, made by Mr. Waterhouse. Professor Owen, also, seems to have come to a nearly similar conclusion.

"It is hopeless to attempt to convince any one of the truth of the above proposition without giving the long array of facts which I have collected, and which cannot possibly be here introduced. I can only state my conviction that it is a rule of high generality.

"I am aware of several causes of error, but I hope that I have made due allowance for them.

"It should be understood that the rule by no means applies to any part, however unusually developed, unless it be unusually developed in one species or in a few species in comparison with the same part in many closely allied species. Thus, the wing of a bat is a most abnormal structure in the class of mammals, but the rule would not apply here, because the whole group of bats possesses wings. It would apply only if some one species had wings developed in a remarkable manner in comparison with the other species of the same genus.

"The rule applies very strongly in the case of secondary sexual characters, when displayed in any unusual manner. The term, secondary sexual characters, used by Hunter, relates to characters which are attached to one sex, but are not directly connected with the act of reproduction. The rule applies to males and females -- but more rarely to the females, as they seldom offer remarkable secondary sexual characters.

"The rule being so plainly applicable in the case of secondary sexual characters may be due to the great variability of these characters -- whether or not displayed in any unusual manner -- of which fact I think there can be little doubt.

"But that our rule is not confined to secondary sexual characters is clearly shown in the case of hermaphrodite cirripedes.

"I particularly attended to Mr. Waterhouse's remark, whilst investigating this Order, and I am fully convinced that the rule almost always holds good.

"I shall, in a future work, give a list of all the more remarkable cases. I will here give only one, as it illustrates the rule in its largest application.

"The opereular valves of sessile cirripedes (rock barnacles) are, in every sense of the word, very important structures. They differ extremely little even in distinct genera.

"But in the several species of one genus, Pyrgoma, these valves present a marvelous amount of diversification. The homologous valves in the different species being sometimes wholly unlike in shape -- and the amount of variation in the individuals of the same species is so great -- that it is no exaggeration to state that the varieties of the same species differ more from each other in the characters derived from these important organs, than do the species belonging to other distinct genera."

Most of this paragraph is giving evidence for what Darwin has found to be true. I'm still not sure what is the "Rule."

Robby

Bubble
June 1, 2006 - 05:34 am
As I understand: All members of a species have things in common that make it a species. Among these members there can be some who develop a variability in only one same part or one same organ. If this happens, the members presenting that different part will also have that part varying a lot between one another.

My prose is far less fluid and descriptive than Darwin's! lol

Mallylee
June 1, 2006 - 12:21 pm
Bubble I do like your summary of this rahter difficult page. Thanks

Bubble
June 3, 2006 - 10:18 am
"In this variety, known as parthenocarpic figs, the fruit develops without insect pollination and is prevented from falling off the tree, which allows it to become soft, sweet, and edible.

But because such figs do not produce seeds, they cannot reproduce unless people propagate them, perhaps by planting shoots or branches. Fig trees will grow this way. "


A variety produced by man so far back in the past...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060602/sc_nm/science_figs_dc_1

Mallylee
June 3, 2006 - 02:04 pm
Mippy, anyone else :

Is 'tree' a botanical term with a precise botanical definition?

I mean, for instance , is a coppiced stump with a lot of stems growing from it 'a tree' or is it several 'trees'?

Bubble
June 4, 2006 - 12:26 am
I have no idea what a "coppiced stump" is, but IMO if it is one woody stump with lots of smaller woody branches it could be called a tree or a bush according to its size.

robert b. iadeluca
June 4, 2006 - 05:19 am
A reminder that in this section we are talking about parts tending to be highly variable.

"As with birds the individuals of the same species, inhabiting the same country, vary extremely little.

"I have particularly attended to them.. The rule certainly seems to hold good in this class.

"I cannot make out that it applies to plants, and this would have seriously shaken my belief in its truth, had not the great variability in plants made it particularly difficult to compare their relative degrees of variability.

"When we see any part or organ developed in a remarkable degree or manner in a species, the fair presumption is that it is of high importance to that species. Nevertheless it is in this case eminently liable to variation.

"Why should this be so? On the view that each species has been independently created, with all its parts as we now see them, I can see no explanation. But on the view that groups of species are descended from some other species -- and have been modified through natural selection -- I think we can obtain some light.

"First let me make some preliminary remarks. If, in our domestic animals, any part or the whole animal be neglected -- and no selection be applied -- that part (for instance, the comb in the Dorking fowl) or the whole breed will cease to have a uniform character. The breed may be said to be degenerating.

"In rudimentary organs -- and in those which have been but little specialised for any particular purpose, and perhaps in polymorphic groups -- we see a nearly parallel case. In such cases natural selection either has not or cannot have come into full play, and thus the organisation is left in a fluctuating condition.

"But what here more particularly concerns us is -- that those points in our domestic animals, which at the present time are undergoing rapid change by continued selection -- are also eminently liable to variation.

"Look at the individuals of the same breed of the pigeon. See what a prodigious amount of difference there is in the beaks of tumblers, in the beaks and wattle of carriers, in the carriage and tail of fantails, &c., these being the points now mainly attended to by English fanciers.

"Even in the same sub-breed, as in that of the short-faced tumbler, it is notoriously difficult to breed nearly perfect birds, many departing widely from the standard. There may truly be said to be a constant struggle going on between -- on the one hand, the tendency to reversion to a less perfect state, as well as an innate tendency to new variations -- and, on the other hand, the power of steady selection to keep the breed true.

"In the long run selection gains the day, and we do not expect to fail so completely as to breed a bird as coarse as a common tumbler pigeon from a good short-faced strain.

"As long as selection is rapidly going on, much variability in the parts undergoing modification may always be expected."

Darwin is telling us, I believe, that Natural Selection tends to win out over the tendency to reversion.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 5, 2006 - 05:19 am
"Now let us turn to nature. When a part has been developed in an extraordinary manner in any one species -- compared with the other species of the same genus -- we may conclude that this part has undergone an extraordinary amount of modification since the period when the several species branched off from the common progenitor of the genus.

"This period will seldom be remote in any extreme degree, as species rarely endure for more than one geological period.

"An extraordinary amount of modification implies an unusually large and long-continued amount of variability -- which has continually been accumulated by natural selection for the benefit of the species.

"But as the variability of the extraordinarily developed part or organ has been so great and long-continued within a period not excessively remote, we might, as a general rule, still expect to find more variability in such parts than in other parts of the organisation which have remained for a much longer period nearly constant.

"This, I am convinced, is the case.

"That the struggle between natural selection on the one hand, and the tendency to reversion and variability on the other hand, will in the course of time cease. That the most abnormally developed organs may be made constant, I see no reason to doubt.

"Hence, when an organ -- however abnormal it may be -- has been transmitted in approximately the same condition to many modified descendants -- as in the case of the wing of the bat -- it must have existed, according to our theory, for an immense period in nearly the same state. Thus it has come not to be more variable than any other structure.

"It is only in those cases in which the modification has been comparatively recent and extraordinarily great that we ought to find the generative variability, as it may be called, still present in a high degree.

"For in this case the variability will seldom as yet have been fixed by the continued selection of the individuals varying in the required manner and degree -- and by the continued rejection of those tending to revert to a former and less modified condition."

Let me see if I have this. Darwin says that parts (organs) in the individual which have changed underwent many many modifications over the millennia. And these changes, he says, occurred through natural selection because they were to the benefit of the organism.

However, he adds, there is always a tendency to revert to the original structure of the organism.

Nevertheless, he believes that if this modification remains for a long long period of time, the tendency to revert ceases and Natural Selection has "won."

Robby

Mallylee
June 5, 2006 - 11:52 pm
Robby#605 Yes, I think that is what it is : when the modification has persisted for a long time it is more established. I think that dog breeders' official bodies such as the Kennel Club, will not allow a modification to be called 'a breed' until the type breeds true to type every time. Additionally, if a sire fails too often to produce offspring like himself he is called a poor sire

robert b. iadeluca
June 6, 2006 - 02:53 am
Specific Characters more Variable than Generic Characters

robert b. iadeluca
June 6, 2006 - 03:05 am
"The principle discussed under the last heading may be applied to our present subject.

"It is notorious that specific characters are more variable than generic.

"To explain by a simple example what is meant -- if in a large genus of plants some species had blue flowers and some had red -- the colour would be only a specific character -- and no one would be surprised at one of the blue species varying into red, or conversely. But if all the species had blue flowers, the colour would become a generic character, and its variation would be a more unusual circumstance.

"I have chosen this example because the explanation which most naturalists would advance is not here applicable -- namely, that specific characters are more variable than generic -- because they are taken from parts of less physiological importance than those commonly used for classing genera.

"I believe this explanation is partly, yet only indirectly, true. I shall, however, have to return to this point in the chapter on Classification.

"It would be almost superfluous to adduce evidence in support of the statement -- that ordinary specific characters are more variable than generic.

"But with respect to important characters I have repeatedly noticed in works on natural history, that when an author remarks with surprise that some important organ or part -- which is generally very constant throughout a large group of species -- differs considerably in closely-allied species, it is often variable in the individuals of the same species.

"And this fact shows that a character -- which is generally of generic value, when it sinks in value and becomes only of specific value -- often becomes variable, though its physiological importance may remain the same.

"Something of the same kind applies to monstrosities. At least Isidore Geoffroy St-Hilaire apparently entertains no doubt that the more an organ normally differs in the different species of the same group, the more subject it is to anomalies in the individuals."

Any horticulturists here to help us understand this?

Robby

Mippy
June 6, 2006 - 08:57 am
Ok, Robbie, I qualify as knowing something about horticulture
but I can't understand this paragraph at all.
Does the upcoming paragraph help?

Mallylee
June 6, 2006 - 10:26 am
"But with respect to important characters I have repeatedly noticed in works on natural history, that when an author remarks with surprise that some important organ or part -- which is generally very constant throughout a large group of species -- differs considerably in closely-allied species, it is often variable in the individuals of the same species.

E.g.

Human individuals have different length of arms , Some people ahve shorter or longer arms .This is a variable characteristic in individuals of the same species(within certain parameters)

Chimpanzees who are a closely allied species have markedly longer arms than any individual humans.

I wish I could think of other illustrations but it's a struggle.

robert b. iadeluca
June 7, 2006 - 03:24 am
Remember, we are talking about the Variability of Specific Characters.



"On the ordinary view of each species having been independently created, why should that part of the structure -- which differs from the same part in other independently-created species of the same genus -- be more variable than those parts which are closely alike in the several species?

"I do not see that any explanation can be given.

"But on the view that species are only strongly marked and fixed varieties, we might expect often to find them still continuing to vary in those parts of their structure which have varied within a moderately recent period -- and which have thus come to differ.

"Or to state the case in another manner:- the points in which all the species of a genus resemble each other -- and in which they differ from allied genera -- are called generic characters. These characters may be attributed to inheritance from a common progenitor. It can rarely have happened that natural selection will have modified several distinct species -- fitted to more or less widely-different habits -- in exactly the same manner. As these so-called generic characters have been inherited from before the period when the several species first branched off from their common progenitor -- and subsequently have not varied or come to differ in any degree, or only in a slight degree -- it is not probable that they should vary at the present day.

"On the other hand, the points in which species differ from other species of the same genus are called specific characters. As these specific characters have varied and come to differ since the period when the species branched off from a common progenitor, it is probable that they should still often be in some degree variable,- at least more variable than those parts of the organisation which have for a very long period remained constant."

Darwin is now coming up with ideas that obviously bothered those people believing in the Biblical story that each species was created individually.

He describes a species as a "srongly marked and fixed variety." And that parts of their structure continue to vary.

He then looks at it from another perspective saying that where there are similar structures in different species, that this is so because they all come from a common ancestor. He cannot see where Natural Selection would have caused similar changes in individually created species in exactly the same manner.

Robby

Mallylee
June 7, 2006 - 09:43 am
I read something today about variations in ladybirds . The harlequin ladybird has various numbers of black spots and may be either yellow or red, Related species in the same genus vary in the red or yellow colour and number of spots, between species, but are always the same within their own species.

I understand Darwin's explanation to mean that the facts that ladybirds are brightly warmly coloured, and spotted, and eat aphids are generic characteristics. The fact that ladybirds species vary in the number of spots, and may be yellow or red, are specific (i.e.) species characteristics.

Darwin' thesis about common ancestral stock would then apply to ladybirds being descended from a common ancestor, and ladybird variations occur as the common stock branches into separate species of ladybird.

I hope I am not confused about the use of 'genus' and 'species' here I may welll be

robert b. iadeluca
June 7, 2006 - 05:03 pm
"Secondary Sexual Characters Variable.-

"I think it will be admitted by naturalists, without my entering on details, that secondary sexual characters are highly variable.

"It will also be admitted that species of the same group differ from each other more widely in their secondary sexual characters, than in other parts of their organisation.

"Compare, for instance, the amount of difference between the males of gallinaceous birds -- in which secondary sexual characters are strongly displayed -- with the amount of difference between the females.

"The cause of the original variability of these characters is not manifest.

"But we can see why they should not have been rendered as constant and uniform as others. They are accumulated by sexual selection -- which is less rigid in its action than ordinary selection, as it does not entail death -- but only gives fewer off-spring to the less favoured males.

"Whatever the cause may be of the variability of secondary sexual characters -- as they are highly variable -- sexual selection will have had a wide scope for action -- and may thus have succeeded in giving to the species of the same group a greater amount of difference in these than in other respects."

Your comments, please?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 7, 2006 - 05:07 pm
A REFRESHER on species, genus, etc.

Robby

Bubble
June 8, 2006 - 03:16 am
Mmmmm.... not all females are attracted by the same characteristics in males. This variety of choices allows more flexibility in the species and thus more survival chances.

Mallylee
June 8, 2006 - 11:44 pm
"But we can see why they should not have been rendered as constant and uniform as others. They are accumulated by sexual selection -- which is less rigid in its action than ordinary selection, as it does not entail death -- but only gives fewer off-spring to the less favoured males.

I can see the sense of this paragraph. But for the others, as I read I kept trying to think of examples so that I could feel I understood. The example that Darwin gives, of domestic fowls, would mean more to me if it had been contrasted with males and females from some other species

Mallylee
June 8, 2006 - 11:48 pm
Bubble I understand what you are saying. But then, maybe the flaunting characteristics of the males of some species are bad for individuals'survival. Peacocks' tails are the usual example of this I suppose.

Mallylee
June 8, 2006 - 11:49 pm
Bubble I understand what you are saying. But then, maybe the flaunting characteristics of the males of some species are bad for individuals'survival. Peacocks' tails are the usual example of this I suppose.

Then, again, some males live only until they fertilise eggs, e.g. the male spiders that die as soon as they have fertilised.

I hope this is not the direction that the human species is taking

Bubble
June 9, 2006 - 12:49 am
Thinking of the praying matis devorig her partner's head while copulating. I'd love to ask her which is more satisfying! lol

Éloïse De Pelteau
June 9, 2006 - 03:16 am
Oh! Bubble you are so funny.

robert b. iadeluca
June 9, 2006 - 03:50 am
It's rough being a male on this planet and in this discussion group. We do our best with the small "Y" chromosome Nature gave us.

Robby

Bubble
June 9, 2006 - 03:59 am
My heart bleeds for you, Robby.
Did you really wish to be a female in this male dominated world?
I am sure you will be like a "coq en pate" in Montreal. Eloise can translate that expression for which I never found any similar in English.
Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
June 9, 2006 - 04:31 am
I understand that, Bubble, and am sure I will be at home and "spoiled" in Montreal.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 9, 2006 - 04:50 am
"It is a remarkable fact. The secondary differences between the two sexes of the same species are generally displayed in the very same parts of the organisation in which the species of the same genus differ from each other.

"Of this fact I will give in illustration the two first instances which happen to stand on my list. As the differences in these cases are of a very unusual nature, the relation can hardly be accidental.

"The same number of joints in the tarsi is a character common to very large groups of beetles. In the Engidoe, as Westwood has remarked, the number varies greatly. The number likewise differs in the two sexes of the same species.

"Again in the fossorial hymenoptera, the neuration of the wings is a character of the highest importance, because common to large groups. But in certain genera the neuration differs in the different species, and likewise in the two sexes of the same species.

"Sir J. Lubbock has recently remarked, that several minute crustaceans offer excellent illustrations of this law. 'In Pontella, for instance, the sexual characters are afforded mainly by the anterior antennae and by the fifth pair of legs: the specific differences also are principally given by these organs.'

"This relation has a clear meaning on my view. I look at all the species of the same genus as having as certainly descended from a common progenitor -- as have the two sexes of any one species.

"Consequently, whatever part of the structure of the common progenitor -- or of its early descendants -- became variable, variations of this part would -- it is highly probable -- be taken advantage of by natural and sexual selection -- in order to fit the several species to their several places in the economy of nature -- and likewise to fit the two sexes of the same species to each other -- or to fit the males to struggle with other males for the possession of the females."

I don't understand the various biological terms but Darwin's last sentence seems to sum it up. I believe tha Darwin is saying that Natural Selection takes advantage of any variation in order to help the two sexes interrelate with each other.

Robby

Mallylee
June 9, 2006 - 09:31 am
I am trying to word this as simply as I can.

Take any characteristic 'C'.

In species S, males and females differ in 'C'.

Within genus SG, the different species vary in characteristic 'C'.

Therefore, if it's found that there's a difference in any 'C' between the females and males, we can expect that all the species of the genus will differ from each other in 'C'.

Robby,I agree with your summary of how secondary sexual characteristics are consistent with natural selection

Scrawler
June 9, 2006 - 11:59 am
Robby, you might have been a male lion and had all the females you wanted, but than again you would have had to fight off the young male cubs as you got older.

I often wonder as we follow the path of evolution if someday we don't adapt to that of an animal's society. It seems as the more humans progress we tend toward becoming savage animals and its the animals that are becoming more peace loving. What would our society be if some day we had a war and nobody came? If we did evolve into a species of peace keepers what would we lose in the exchange?

For example our wisdom teeth hurt and are expensive to remove, but they were once needed back when our jaws were longer and we ate raw meat.

robert b. iadeluca
June 10, 2006 - 05:46 am
"Finally, then, I conclude that the greater variability of specific characters -- or those which distinguish species from species, than of generic characters -- or those which are possessed by all the species -- that the frequent extreme variability of any part which is developed in a species in an extraordinary manner in comparison with the same part in its congeners -- and the slight degree of variability in a part -- however extraordinarily it may be developed -- if it be common to a whole group of species -- that the great variability of secondary sexual characters, and their great difference in closely allied species -- that secondary sexual and ordinary specific differences are generally displayed in the same parts of the organisation -- are all principles closely connected together.

"All being mainly due to the species of the same group being the descendants of common progenitor, from whom they have inherited much in common -- to parts which have recently and largely varied being more likely still to go on varying than parts which have long been inherited and have not varied -- to natural selection having more or less completely, according to the lapse of time, overmastered the tendency to reversion and to further variability -- to sexual selection being less rigid than ordinary selection,- and to variations in the same parts having been accumulated by natural and sexual selection, and having been thus adapted for secondary sexual, and for ordinary purposes."

I got lost in that first sentence. It is a loo-loo. And the second is not much better. Anyone want to help me separate all those dependent clauses?

Robby

Mallylee
June 10, 2006 - 07:11 am
What I make of it is this :

All male bongo birds have crests which they flaunt at females. Some male bongo birds have green, some red crests : some have curly crests and some have straight crests.

The G'Bongo genus . although made up of species that can be identified as G'Bongos, vary quite a bit in their secondary sexual characteristics, not only in the styles of their crests, but also in their varying abilities to jump high in the mating dance, and varying intelligent use of discarded ring-pulls as courting presents for the females

Bubble
June 10, 2006 - 07:14 am
Very clear Mallylee! I am grinning here, imagining that scene...

[reading fast I first saw "...have green, some red vests ..."]lol

Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
June 10, 2006 - 07:22 am
Mallylee:-Thank God for your presence here in this discussion group. His clause after clause after clause left me bogged down in the swamp.

I'll be back later but am going out for a while to flaunt my crest.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
June 10, 2006 - 08:21 am
At 85, be careful you don't come back crestfallen from your forey into town Robby.

Bubble
June 10, 2006 - 08:37 am
owwwwwww Eloise! I bet he is practicing for July. How many will you be?

Éloïse De Pelteau
June 10, 2006 - 09:23 am
Right now there are 44 people on the list Bubble, 4 Canadians, 4 Australians and the others are Americans. I'm very happy with the group, I have met almost all of them at other Bashes, a wonderful group of Seniors.

Bubble
June 10, 2006 - 09:50 am
I wish... Good luck Eloise, maybe lots of work for you but I am sure great fun for all.

I wonder if one can differenciate between all the origins, not taking into account speech and accent... variations by countries and climate?

robert b. iadeluca
June 10, 2006 - 05:38 pm
"Distinct Species present analagous Variations.

"A Variety of one Species often assumes a Character proper to an Allied Species -- or reverts to some of the Characters of an early Progenitor.

"These propositions will be most readily understood by looking to our domestic races. The most distinct breeds of the pigeon -- in countries widely apart -- present sub-varieties with reversed feathers on the head, and with feathers on the feet,- characters not possessed by the aboriginal rock-pigeon.

"These then are analogous variations in two or more distinct races.

"The frequent presence of fourteen or even sixteen tail-feathers in the pouter may be considered as a variation representing the normal structure of another race, the fan-tail.

"I presume that no one will doubt that all such analogous variations are due to the several races of the pigeon having inherited from a common parent the same constitution and tendency to variation, when acted on by similar unknown influences.

"In the vegetable kingdom we have a case of analogous variation, in the enlarged stems -- or as commonly called roots -- of the Swedish turnip and Rutabaga, plants which several botanists rank as varieties produced by cultivation from a common parent.

"If this be not so, the case will then be one of analogous variation in two so-called distinct species. To these a third may be added, namely, the common turnip.

"According to the ordinary view of each species having been independently created, we should have to attribute this similarity in the enlarged stems of these three plants, not to the vera causa of community of descent -- and a consequent tendency to vary in a like manner -- but to three separate yet closely related acts of creation. Many similar cases of analogous variation have been observed by Naudin in the great gourd-family, and by various authors in our cereals.

"Similar cases occurring with insects under natural conditions have lately been discussed with much ability by Mr. Walsh, who has grouped them under his law of Equable Variability."

Again Darwin asks us to follow the logic -- if we can -- of the Biblical description of organisms being separate acts of creation.

He gives us examples of plants which appear to be closely related to other species -- or closely similar to the ancestors of the plants.

He sees different sub-breeds of pigeon as having come from the original rock pigeon. He sees the turnip and the rutabaga as having a common parent. He finds their similarity as being incomprehensible if they had been individually created.

Robby

Mallylee
June 11, 2006 - 01:42 am
I use either /both of them as ingredients in Irish stew. Is this incorrect or correct?

Bubble
June 11, 2006 - 01:45 am
huh, Mallylee???

suec
June 11, 2006 - 03:20 am
I think the orangutan on Borneo and Sumatra are a great example. At one time the two islands were part of Indonesia. Millions of years ago the islands separated from the mainland. Over time the orangs developed separately. The orangs on one island are red while on the other island they are brown. One species large cheek pouches which are absent in the other. The Borneo orangs are more sociable than the ones on Sumatra. For some reason, orangs didn't survive on the mainland.

Mallylee, pigeons in Irish stew?! Sounds good.

robert b. iadeluca
June 11, 2006 - 03:27 am
"With pigeons, however, we have another case, namely, the occasional appearance in all the breeds, of slaty-blue birds with two black bars on the wings, white loins, a bar at the end of the tail, with the outer feathers externally edged near their basis with white.

"As all these marks are characteristic of the parent rock-pigeon, I presume that no one will doubt that this is a case of reversion, and not of a new yet analogous variation appearing in the several breeds.

"We may, I think, confidently come to this conclusion, because, as we have seen, these coloured marks are eminently liable to appear in the crossed offspring of two distinct and differently coloured breeds. In this case there is nothing in the external conditions of life to cause the reappearance of the slaty-blue, with the several marks, beyond the influence of the mere act of crossing on the laws of inheritance."

We have all seen pigeons in various cities and almost all of them seem the same -- slaty-blue with two black bars on the wings, white loins, a bar at the end of the tail.

Shall we all agree with Darwin that this is a case of reversion, reflecting constant interbreeding and not an effect of the environment?

Also of interest is the fact that we see these pigeons rarely in the countryside but instead in cities where there are many flat surfaces reminiscent of the rocks of the original Rock Pigeon.

Robby

Mallylee
June 11, 2006 - 08:07 am
Bubble : Suec : turnips !

Bubble
June 11, 2006 - 08:09 am
Ha hah ha ok!

Scrawler
June 11, 2006 - 08:48 am
I just read that: "A massive crater in Antarctica may have been caused by a meteor that whiped out more than 90 percent of the species on Earth 250 millillion years ago, a geologist said."

Could this be an example of natural selection on a grand scale?

robert b. iadeluca
June 11, 2006 - 08:53 am
It would seem so to me.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 12, 2006 - 04:10 am
"No doubt it is a very surprising fact that characters should reappear after having been lost for many, probably for hundreds of generations.

"But when a breed has been crossed only once by some other breed, the offspring occasionally show for many generations a tendency to revert in character to the foreign breed- some say, for a dozen or even a score of generations.

"After twelve generations, the proportion of blood, to use a common expression, from one ancestor, is only 1 in 2048. Yet, as we see, it is generally believed that a tendency to reversion is retained by this remnant of foreign blood.

"In a breed which has not been crossed -- but in which both parents have lost some character which their progenitor possessed -- the tendency, whether strong or weak, to reproduce the lost character might -- as was formerly remarked, for all that we can see to the contrary -- be transmitted for almost any number of generations.

"When a character which has been lost in a breed, reappears after a great number of generations, the most probable hypothesis is -- not that one individual suddenly takes after an ancestor removed by some hundred generations -- but that in each successive generation the character in question has been lying latent, and at last -- under unknown favourable conditions -- is developed.

"With the barb-pigeon, for instance, which very rarely produces a blue bird, it is probable that there is a latent tendency in each generation to produce blue plumage.

"The abstract improbability of such a tendency being transmitted through a vast number of generations, is not greater than that of quite useless or rudimentary organs being similarly transmitted.

"A mere tendency to produce a rudiment is indeed sometimes thus inherited."

Reversion -- a most interesting topic. As Darwin puts it, "the character in question has been lying latent."

Robby

Mallylee
June 12, 2006 - 01:20 pm
It seems that Darwin was thinking that blood contained the heritable material.Or was Darwin only using a figure of speech?

the Rise of Genetics Darwin's theory was surprisingly modern except in his ideas about variation and heredity. the notion of the unit gene was popularized soon after 1900 and showed that characters are inherited as undiluted units. Lamarckism was discredited because the genes cannot be influenced by the body carrying them. After some controversy, it was realized that genetic mutation provided a new explanation of the random variation that Darwin saw in every population. With Lamarckism gone, the genetical theory of natural selection emerged in the 1930s and 40s, explaining adaptive evolution in terms of the changing genetic composition of populations. Many biologists now regard the synthesis of Darwinism and genetics as the only plausible explanation of evolution.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/darwin/leghist/bowler.htm

Reversion : What a pity Darwin never read Mendel! Is reversion due to the action of a dominant gene?

robert b. iadeluca
June 12, 2006 - 02:15 pm
He used it as a figure of speech. Note that he says: "to use a common expression." He knew nothing about genes but apparently knew there was something underlying.

I thought reversion was due to two recessive genes coming together.

Robby

Mippy
June 12, 2006 - 02:29 pm
In previous weeks, I believe I was chastised when I posted the word "gene"
Et tu? Robby?

However, it is very difficult to say what reversion actually is without any reference to modern genetics. That is one reason I have been staying out of this discussion recently.

robert b. iadeluca
June 12, 2006 - 02:37 pm
You're right, Mippy. It's so hard to continue pretending that we don't know any more than Darwin.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 12, 2006 - 06:01 pm
"As all the species of the same genus are supposed to be descended from a common progenitor, it might be expected that they would occasionally vary in an analogous manner -- so that the varieties of two or more species would resemble each other -- or that a variety of one species would resemble in certain characters another and distinct species -- this other species being, according to our view, only a well marked and permanent variety.

"But characters exclusively due to analogous variation would probably be of an unimportant nature. The preservation of all functionally important characters will have been determined through natural selection, in accordance with the different habits of the species.

"It might further be expected that the species of the same genus would occasionally exhibit reversions to long lost characters.

"As, however, we do not know the common ancestors of any natural group, we cannot distinguish between reversionary and analogous characters.

"If, for instance, we did not know that the parent rock-pigeon was not feather-footed or turn-crowned, we could not have told, whether such characters in our domestic breeds were reversions or only analogous variations. We might have inferred that the blue colour was a case of reversion from the number of the markings, which are correlated with this tint, and which would not probably have all appeared together from simple variation.

"More especially we might have inferred this, from the blue colour and the several marks so often appearing when differently coloured breeds are crossed.

"Hence, although under nature it must generally be left doubtful, what cases are reversions to formerly existing characters, and what are new but analogous variations -- yet we ought, on our theory, sometimes to find the varying offspring of a species assuming characters which are already present in other members of the same group.

"This undoubtedly is the case."

Lots of inferring going on here. Darwin acknowledges that it is a theory.

Robby

Malryn
June 12, 2006 - 11:49 pm

I live on top of Mount Pocono in Pennsylvania in a subsidized apartment in what looks like a small development of country townhouses. Though within walking distance of a busy two lane highway, there are a lot of fauna and vegetation here in the woods in this little town. (Pop. 2500).

Behind this building is a very nice patio surrounded by grass and trees. I was out in the second floor lobby one day recently and saw near the patio a flash of white, which proceeded speedily off the grass and into a tree.

It is a pure white squirrel. I've never seen one before in my life. We tenants are going around as if we had a white buffalo in our midst, feeling blessed with luck by this phenomenon. I haven't been near enough to the squirrel to see if it has pink eyes, the sign of a true albino, nor has anyone else. I'm wondering how this fits into Darwin's interpretation of things.

Mal

Mallylee
June 13, 2006 - 12:08 am
What I make of this is :

At least one domestic breed of pigeon has feathered feet.

No existing wild rock pigeon has feathered feet. Wild rock pigeons have bred true to type for many generations.

Therefore the feathered feet of the specific breed of pigeon represents a reversion to an earlier characteristic of wild rock pigeons.

The alternative theory would be that feathered feet in the specific breed of domestic pigeon appeared as the result of the sort of variation that seems to appear randomly,i.e.with no prior cause. But this is unlikely because we DO , in fact know that wild rock pigeon parents do not produce chicks that become adults with feathery feet

Mallylee
June 13, 2006 - 12:16 am
Malryn, what a treat to see a wild white squirrel.

I remember hearing something about how among breeds of horses, the colours grey, chestnut and black are all the same type of pigment.Grey foals are born dark, and only become whiter, then pure white when the animal is aged.

Bays represent a different pigment type.So I heard. I dont know how true this is.

Maybe the white squirrel is a variation in amount of normal squirrel pigment , perhaps an albino as you suggest, rather than a new mutation ,or reversionary pigment type.

Bubble
June 13, 2006 - 12:20 am
You lost me Mallylee...

I was sure feathered feet would be a new variation and not a reversion because Rock pigeons never showed them, in the wild or otherwise....

Mallylee
June 13, 2006 - 12:28 am
Bubble, your interpretation is more straightforward so I had to think again. I have been trying to work it out as I write and I am no sort of authority on it .

I thought, well, the featherd feet cnaracteristic has to come from somewhere.

I thought that if feathery feet were a variation analogous to other random variations, then some other breeds of pigeons, including wild rock doves, would show feathery feet.

I think I am assuming that a random variation that catches on would appear in more varieties, than an accidental reversion to an earlier type.

( I am up quite early , here in England. I guess time in Israel is same or similar to Greenwich mean time)

Bubble
June 13, 2006 - 01:00 am
Israel is GMT + 2. I am on my way to work at the library and tomorrow working all day at the sale bazaar there. So... I'll have lots of catch up to do! Bubble

Malryn
June 13, 2006 - 06:18 am

Evolution: Twenty-seven thousand year old drawing of a face

robert b. iadeluca
June 13, 2006 - 05:06 pm
"The difficulty in distinguishing variable species is largely due to the varieties mocking, as it were, other species of the same genus.

"A considerable catalogue, also, could be given of forms intermediate between two other forms, which themselves can only doubtfully be ranked as species. This shows, unless all these closely allied forms be considered as independently created species, that they have in varying assumed some of the characters of the others.

"But the best evidence of analogous variations is afforded by parts or organs which are generally constant in character -- but which occasionally vary so as to resemble, in some degree, the same part or organ in an allied species.

"I have collected a long list of such cases. But here, as before, I lie under the great disadvantage of not being able to give them.

"I can only repeat that such cases certainly occur, and seem to me very remarkable."

What I am catching here is that Darwin sees so many similarities that he finds it difficulty to separate specie from specie or between the varieties which lead to the species. Is that what you folks see?

Robby

Mallylee
June 14, 2006 - 12:35 am
'In some degree' is what must have puzzled Darwin. I mean, at which degree did Darwin drw the line between species and species? It looks to me as if there was a consensus among a few learned men.

What is surely apparent I hope , is that no Creator drew the line!

robert b. iadeluca
June 14, 2006 - 03:04 am
Yes, Mallylee, we are coming closer to the disagreement that is still in the news over a century later.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 14, 2006 - 03:47 am
"I will, however, give one curious and complex case, not indeed as affecting any important character, but from occurring in several species of the same genus, partly under domestication and partly under nature.

"It is a case almost certainly of reversion. The ass sometimes has very distinct transverse bars on its legs, like those on the legs of the zebra. It has been asserted that these are plainest in the foal, and, from inquiries which I have made, I believe this to be true.

"The stripe on the shoulder is sometimes double, and is very variable in length and outline. A white ass, but not an albino, has been described without either spinal or shoulder stripe. These stripes are sometimes very obscure, or actually quite lost, in dark-coloured asses.

"The koulan of Pallas is said to have been seen with a double shoulder-stripe. Mr. Blyth has seen a specimen of the hemionus with a distinct shoulder-stripe, though it properly has none. I have been informed by Colonel Poole that the foals of this species are generally striped on the legs, and faintly on the shoulder.

"The quagga, though so plainly barred like a zebra over the body, is without bars on the legs; but Dr. Gray has figured one specimen with very distinct zebra-like bars on the hocks."

Any comments?

Robby

Bubble
June 14, 2006 - 03:49 am
It makes me think of the rare okapi.

Mallylee
June 14, 2006 - 11:53 pm
dun ponies typically have the spinal stripe , but no other horse colour has this, as far as I know. From what Darwin writes about asses, it seems that perhaps the dun colour in asses goes with the stripe , but other coloured asses dont have the spinal stripe.

I wonder if stripes on the legs also go with the dun colouring, but not with other sorts of general pigmentation.

Isn't the okapi a beautiful animal Bubble!

robert b. iadeluca
June 15, 2006 - 02:42 am
Here is a photo of an OKAPI.

Robby

Bubble
June 15, 2006 - 03:20 am
Robby this one is much darker that what I remember seeing. But Okapi are another species altogether, they are the same family as giraffes I think.

robert b. iadeluca
June 16, 2006 - 02:57 am
"With respect to the horse, I have collected cases in England of the spinal stripe in horses of the most distinct breeds, and of all colours.

"Transverse bars on the legs are not rare in duns, mouse-duns, and in one instance in a chestnut a faint shoulder-stripe may sometimes be seen in duns. I have seen a trace in a bay horse.

"My son made a careful examination and sketch for me of a dun Belgian cart-horse with a double stripe on each shoulder and with leg-stripes. I have myself seen a dun Devonshire pony, and a small dun Welsh pony has been carefully described to me, both with three parallel stripes on each shoulder."

Comments about horses?

Robby

Mallylee
June 16, 2006 - 12:35 pm
Dun ponies' spinal stripes are still referred to as 'eel stripes' in this country anyway. The pure breed called Highland ponies(or garrons) are typically either dun or grey

Some beautiful Highland ponies here, both dun and grey, although you cant see the eel stripe because you can see it only from above

http://www.highland-pony.demon.co.uk/Denmill.htm

robert b. iadeluca
June 16, 2006 - 04:41 pm
"In the north-west part of India the kattywar breed of horses is so generally striped, that -- as I hear from Colonel Poole, who examined this breed for the Indian Government -- a horse without stripes is not considered as purely-bred.

"The spine is always striped. The legs are generally barred. The shoulder-stripe, which is sometimes double and sometimes treble, is common. The side of the face, moreover, is sometimes striped.

"The stripes are often plainest in the foal and sometimes quite disappear in old horses.

"Colonel Poole has seen both gray and bay kattywar horses striped when first foaled. I have also reason to suspect -- from information given me by Mr. W. W. Edwards -- that with the English race-horse the spinal stripe is much commoner in the foal than in the fullgrown animal.

"I have myself recently bred a foal from a bay mare (offspring of a Turkoman horse and a Flemish mare) by a bay English race-horse. This foal when a week old was marked on its hinder quarters and on its forehead with numerous, very narrow, dark, zebra-like bars, and its legs were feebly striped. All the stripes soon disappeared completely.

"Without here entering on further details, I may state that I have collected cases of leg and shoulder stripes in horses of very different breeds in various countries from Britain to eastern China -- and from Norway in the north to the Malay Archipelago in the south.

"In all parts of the world these stripes occur far oftenest in duns and mouse-duns. By the term dun a large range of colour is included, from one between brown and black to a close approach to cream-colour."

This paragraph speaks for itself. Any comments?

Robby

Bubble
June 17, 2006 - 12:43 am
Then we could imagine that the prehistorical horse was mostly striped. That is a totally new notion for me.

I was taught that okapis, zebras, etc were striped because in their wooded habitat in nature they blended better that way and thus escaped pedators more easily. Would that be true for horses? I thought they lived mostly in steppes which are almost bare from trees.

robert b. iadeluca
June 17, 2006 - 03:35 am
"I am aware that Colonel Hamilton Smith, who has written on this subject, believes that the several breeds of the horse are descended from several aboriginal species- one of which, the dun, was striped -- and that the above described appearances are an due to ancient crosses with the dun stock.

"But this view may be safely rejected. It is highly improbable that the heavy Belgian cart-horse, Welsh ponies, Norwegian cobs, the lanky kattywar race, &c., inhabiting the most distant parts of the world, should all have been crossed with one supposed aboriginal stock.

"Now let us turn to the effects of crossing the several species of the horse-genus.

"Rollin asserts, that the common mule from the ass and horse is particularly apt to have bars on its legs. According to Mr. Gosse, in certain parts of the United States about nine out of ten mules have striped legs.

"I once saw a mule with its legs so much striped that any one might have thought that it was a hybrid-zebra. Mr. W. C. Martin, in his excellent treatise on the horse, has given a figure of a similar mule.

"In four coloured drawings, which I have seen -- of hybrids between the ass and zebra -- the legs were much more plainly barred than the rest of the body. In one of them there was a double shoulder-stripe.

"In Lord Morton's famous hybrid -- from a chestnut mare and male quagga -- the hybrid, and even the pure offspring subsequently produced from the same mare by a black Arabian sire, were much more plainly barred across the legs than is even the pure quagga.

"Lastly, and this is another most remarkable case, a hybrid has been figured by Dr. Gray (and he informs me that he knows of a second case) from the ass and the hemionus. This hybrid -- though the ass only occasionally has stripes on its legs and the hemionus has none and has not even a shoulder-stripe -- nevertheless had all four legs barred, and had three short shoulder-stripes, like those on the dun Devonshire and Welsh ponies, and even had some zebra-like stripes on the sides of its face.

"With respect to this last fact, I was so convinced that not even a stripe of colour appears from what is commonly called chance -- that I was led solely from the occurrence of the face-stripes on this hybrid from the ass and hemionus to ask Colonel Poole whether such face-stripes ever occurred in the eminently striped kattywar breed of horses -- and was, as we have seen, answered in the affirmative."

This paragraph gives examples. Any comments?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 17, 2006 - 03:38 am
Definition of a QUAGGA.

Definition of a HEMIONUS.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 19, 2006 - 03:09 am
"What now are we to say to these several facts?

"We see several distinct species of the horse-genus becoming, by simple variation, striped on the legs like a zebra, or striped on the shoulders like an ass.

"In the horse we see this tendency strong whenever a dun tint appears- a tint which approaches to that of the general colouring of the other species of the genus. The appearance of the stripes is not accompanied by any change of form or by any other new character.

"We see this tendency to become striped most strongly displayed in hybrids from between several of the most distinct species.

"Now observe the case of the several breeds of pigeons. They are descended from a pigeon -- including two or three sub-species or geographical races -- of bluish colour, with certain bars and other marks. When any breed assumes by simple variation a bluish tint, these bars and other marks invariably reappear -- but without any other change of form or character.

"When the oldest and truest breeds of various colours are crossed, we see a strong tendency for the blue tint and bars and marks to reappear in the mongrels.

"I have stated that the most probable hypothesis to account for the reappearance of very ancient characters, is -- that there is a tendency in the young of each successive generation to produce the long-lost character. That this tendency -- from unknown causes -- sometimes prevails. And we have just seen that in several species of the horse-genus the stripes are either plainer or appear more commonly in the young than in the old.

"Call the breeds of pigeons, some of which have bred true for centuries, species. How exactly parallel is the case with that of the species of the horse-genus!

"For myself, I venture confidently to look back thousands on thousands of generations. I see an animal striped like a zebra, but perhaps otherwise very differently constructed, the common parent of our domestic horse -- whether or not it be descended from one or more wild stocks -- of the ass, the hemionus, quagga, and zebra."

Darwin asks -- "What are we to say to these several facts?

What do you think?

Robby

Mallylee
June 19, 2006 - 09:01 am
http://www.dungenes.org/

robert b. iadeluca
June 19, 2006 - 02:52 pm
That's a wonderful link, Mallylee!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 19, 2006 - 06:21 pm
"Summary.- Our ignorance of the laws of variation is profound.

"Not in one case out of a hundred can we pretend to assign any reason why this or that part has varied. But whenever we have the means of instituting a comparison -- the same laws appear to have acted in producing the lesser differences between varieties of the same species -- and the greater differences between species of the same genus.

"Changed conditions generally induce mere fluctuating variability. Sometimes they cause direct and definite effects. These may become strongly marked in the course of time, though we have not sufficient evidence on this head.

"Habit in producing constitutional peculiarities and use in strengthening and disuse in weakening and diminishing organs, appear in many cases to have been potent in their effects.

"Homologous parts tend to vary in the same manner. Homologous parts tend to cohere.

"Modifications in hard parts and in external parts sometimes affect softer and internal parts.

"When one part is largely developed, perhaps it tends to draw nourishment from the adjoining parts. Every part of the structure which can be saved without detriment will be saved.

"Changes of structure at an early age may affect parts subsequently developed. Many cases of correlated variation, the nature of which we are unable to understand, undoubtedly occur.

"Multiple parts are variable in number and in structure, perhaps arising from such parts not having been closely specialised for any particular function. Their modifications have not been closely checked by natural selection.

"It follows probably from this same cause, that organic beings low in the scale are more variable than those standing higher in the scale -- and which have their whole organisation more specialised.

"Rudimentary organs, from being useless, are not regulated by natural selection, and hence are variable.

"Specific characters -- that is, the characters which have come to differ since the several species of the same genus branched off from a common parent -- are more variable than generic characters -- or those which have long been inherited, and have not differed from this same period.

"In these remarks we have referred to special parts or organs being still variable, because they have recently varied and thus come to differ. We have also seen in the second chapter that the same principle applies to the whole individual. In a district where many species of a genus are found- that is, where there has been much former variation and differentiation -- or where the manufactory of new specific forms has been actively at work -- in that district and amongst these species, we now find, on an average, most varieties.

"Secondary sexual characters are highly variable, and such characters differ much in the species of the same group.

"Variability in the same parts of the organisation has generally been taken advantage of in giving secondary sexual differences to the two sexes of the same species, and specific differences to the several species of the same genus.

"Any part or organ developed to an extraordinary size or in an extraordinary manner -- in comparison with the same part or organ in the allied species -- must have gone through an extraordinary amount of modification since the genus arose.

"Thus we can understand why it should often still be variable in a much higher degree than other parts. Variation is a long-continued and slow process.

"Natural selection will in such cases not as yet have had time to overcome the tendency to further variability and to reversion to a less modified state.

"But when a species with any extraordinarily-developed organ has become the parent of many modified descendants -- which on our view must be a very slow process, requiring long lapse of time -- in this case, natural selection has succeeded in giving a fixed character to the organ -- in however extraordinary a manner it may have been developed.

"Species inheriting nearly the same constitution from a common parent -- and exposed to similar influences -- naturally tend to present analogous variations, or these same species may occasionally revert to some of the characters of their ancient progenitors.

"Although new and important modifications may not arise from reversion and analogous variation, such modifications will add to the beautiful and harmonious diversity of nature."

Darwin speaks like a good naturalist or a good scientist. He acknowledges that he is ignorant about many things. Almost every research conclusion ends with the comment: "More research is suggested."

But he does see certain bits of evidence happening over and over again and comes to the conclusion that there must be a meaning here somewhere.

"He points out that every part which can be saved without detriment is saved.

"He points out that structures which are changed when the organism is young affects later development.

"He points out that organisms lower in the scale become more easily variable.

He points out that secondary sexual characteristics are highly variable.

He ends by saying that variable is a long-continued and slow process. Perhaps this, more than anything else, is his message. What he is telling us in a few minutes takes thousands if not millions of years.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 21, 2006 - 03:39 am
This is the final paragraph of Chapter Five.

"Whatever the cause may be of each slight difference between the offspring and their parents- and a cause for each must exist- we have reason to believe that it is the steady accumulation of beneficial differences which has given rise to all the more important modifications of structure in relation to the habits of each species.

What is your reaction to this chapter which was entitled "Laws of Variation."

Robby

Bubble
June 21, 2006 - 04:53 am
So species gets better and better. Is there a limit to that?

Maybe when a limit is reached there occurs a sudden mutation for better. Unless a mutation creates an aberration that may or may not be continued. IMO Even more research cannot predict the future of species.

Mallylee
June 21, 2006 - 03:30 pm
Your summary is very welcome Robby , for I find Darwin's summary mostly difficult.

My reaction to this chapter is that since Darwin is supposed to have great literary style, then my comprehension must be lacking. I only hope thta I have picked up some of Darwin's meticulous reasoning, and that I will be able to use it later on.

robert b. iadeluca
June 21, 2006 - 04:29 pm
Chapter VI

Difficulties of the Theory

robert b. iadeluca
June 21, 2006 - 04:42 pm
"LONG before the reader has arrived at this part of my work, a crowd of difficulties will have occurred to him.

"Some of them are so serious that to this day I can hardly reflect on them without being in some degree staggered. To the best of my judgment, the greater number are only apparent, and those that are real are not, I think, fatal to the theory.

"These difficulties and objections may be classed under the following heads:- First, why, if species have descended from other species by fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion, instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?

"Secondly, is it possible that an animal having, for instance, the structure and habits of a bat, could have been formed by the modification of some other animal with widely different habits and structure? Can we believe that natural selection could produce, on the one hand, an organ of trifling importance, such as the tail of a giraffe, which serves as a fly-flapper, and, on the other hand, an organ so wonderful as the eye?

"Thirdly, can instincts be acquired and modified through natural selection? What shall we say to the instinct which leads the bee to make cells, and which has practically anticipated the discoveries of profound mathematicians?

"Fourthly, how can we account for species, when crossed, being sterile and producing sterile offspring, whereas, when varieties are crossed, their fertility is unimpaired? The two first heads will here be discussed; some miscellaneous objections in the following chapter; Instinct and Hybridism in the two succeeding chapters."

We will pause a bit to read this section as it is explained in detail in the following paragraphs.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 22, 2006 - 03:17 am
On the Absence or Rarity of Transitional Varieties

robert b. iadeluca
June 22, 2006 - 03:28 am
"As natural selection acts solely by the preservation of profitable modifications, each new form will tend in a fully-stocked country to take the place of -- and finally to exterminate -- its own less improved parent-form and other less favoured forms with which it comes into competition.

"Thus extinction and natural selection go hand in hand.

"Hence, if we look at each species as descended from some unknown form, both the parent and all the transitional varieties will generally have been exterminated by the very process of the formation and perfection of the new form.

"But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?

"It will be more convenient to discuss this question in the chapter on the Imperfection of the Geological Record. I will here only state that I believe the answer mainly lies in the record being incomparably less perfect than is generally supposed.

"The crust of the earth is a vast museum. But the natural connections have been imperfectly made, and only at long intervals of time."

This is the way I understand this. Natural selection chooses only those variations which benefit the organism. Because the previous variation was less beneficial, it died. As Darwin says: "Extinction and Natural Selection go hand in hand."

As we look at a specific specie, we realize that its ancestor was less developed, but we have no example of that because it died. However, he says, it would seem that there should be somewhere the fossils of these ancestors. Why, then, don't we find them?

Darwin answers his own question by stating that the planet (thinking of it as a museum) is vast and the period of time over which these variations changed occurred in millions of years. The odds, therefore, are small that we should find them.

Robby

Mippy
June 22, 2006 - 07:25 am
Robby ~ you posted: Natural selection chooses only those variations which benefit the organism.
Because the previous variation was less beneficial, it died.

I had always been taught that Darwin believed that natural selection benefits the species. An individual plant or animals does not matter in natural selection. Organism (singular) is used by most biologists to mean
one plant or one animal.
Are we on the same wave length here?

robert b. iadeluca
June 22, 2006 - 04:40 pm
Mippy:-I was not referring to just one plant.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 22, 2006 - 04:45 pm
"But it may be urged that when several closely-allied species inhabit the same territory, we surely ought to find at the present time many transitional forms.

"Let us take a simple case. In travelling from north to south over a continent, we generally meet at successive intervals with closely allied or representative species, evidently filling nearly the same place in the natural economy of the land.

"These representative species often meet and interlock. As the one becomes rarer and rarer, the other becomes more and more frequent, till the one replaces the other.

"But if we compare these species where they intermingle, they are generally as absolutely distinct from each other in every detail of structure as are specimens taken from the metropolis inhabited by each.

"By my theory these allied species are descended from a common parent. During the process of modification, each has become adapted to the conditions of life of its own region, and has supplanted and exterminated its original parent-form and all the transitional varieties between its past and present states.

"Hence we ought not to expect at the present time to meet with numerous transitional varieties in each region -- though they must have existed there -- and may be embedded there in a fossil condition.

"But in the intermediate region, having intermediate conditions of life, why do we not now find closely-linking intermediate varieties? This difficulty for a long time quite confounded me. But I think it can be in large part explained."

Any comments here?

Robby

Mallylee
June 23, 2006 - 12:17 am
I hope someone can suggest actual examples from life, because I cannot think of any intermediate varieties, I am not sure what intermediate varieties are.

I only have faith in Darwin, that he knows of intermediate varieties.

I was thinking of the wild dog roses that dot the hedges just now, with their single flowers. Some are white and some are pale pink, but whether or not this slight difference in colour makes for a diffeence in variety, I dont know.

robert b. iadeluca
June 23, 2006 - 03:13 am
I define "intermediate varieties" as changes over the millennia.

A specie has a slight change (variety) which then has a further change (another variety) and on and on over time until someone calls them a new specie.

Robby

Mallylee
June 23, 2006 - 04:31 am
Thanks Robby.

Bubble
June 24, 2006 - 09:32 am
Tortoise Believed to Have Been Owned By Darwin Dies at 176

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200831,00.html

Mallylee
June 24, 2006 - 10:21 am
Poor old darling, but I expect it had a good life, being cared for by experts.

robert b. iadeluca
June 25, 2006 - 06:33 am
"In the first place we should be extremely cautious in inferring, because an area is now continuous, that it has been continuous during a long period.

"Geology would lead us to believe that most continents have been broken up into islands even during the later tertiary periods. In such islands distinct species might have been separately formed without the possibility of intermediate varieties existing in the intermediate zones.

"By changes in the form of the land and of climate, marine areas now continuous must often have existed within recent times in a far less continuous and uniform condition than at present.

"But I will pass over this way of escaping from the difficulty. I believe that many perfectly defined species have been formed on strictly continuous areas.

"Although I do not doubt that the formerly broken condition of areas now continuous, has played an important part in the formation of new species, more especially with freely-crossing and wandering animals."

I can see where more and more Darwin is going to get us into the field of geology.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 26, 2006 - 05:04 am
"In looking at species as they are now distributed over a wide area, we generally find them tolerably numerous over a large territory, then becoming somewhat abruptly rarer and rarer on the confines, and finally disappearing.

"Hence the neutral territory between two representative species is generally narrow in comparison with the territory proper to each.

"We see the same fact in ascending mountains, and sometimes it is quite remarkable how abruptly -- as Alph. de Candolle has observed -- a common alpine species disappears.

"The same fact has been noticed by E. Forbes in sounding the depths of the sea with the dredge.

"To those who look at climate and the physical conditions of life as the all-important elements of distribution, these facts ought to cause surprise, as climate and height or depth graduate away insensibly.

"But when we bear in mind that almost every species -- even in its metropolis -- would increase immensely in numbers, were it not for other competing species. Nearly all either prey on or serve as prey for others. Each organic being is either directly or indirectly related in the most important manner to other organic beings.

"We see that the range of the inhabitants of any country by no means exclusively depends on insensibly changing physical conditions, but in a large part on the presence of other species -- on which it lives, or by which it is destroyed -- or with which it comes into competition.

"As these species are already defined objects, not blending one into another by insensible gradations, the range of any one species -- depending as does on the range of others -- will tend to be sharply defined.

"Moreover, each species on the confines of its range, where it exists in lessened numbers, will -- during fluctuations in the number of its enemies or of its prey, or in the nature of the seasons -- be extremely liable to utter extermination. Thus its geographical range will come to be still more sharply defined."

Let me see if I get this. There are large territories where the same specie exists. One territory might have one kind of specie, another territory another kind of specie. The "neutral" spaces between the territories are much smaller than the large specie territories.

Darwin adds that the numbers of distinct species, e.g. wolves and deer that continue to exist depend on competing species which either prey upon them or themselves become prey. Those species which are on the periphery of its territory, e.g. those deer which stray from the herd, are more susceptible to being killed. This, then, defines more exactly where the main herd is, i.e. where their territory is.

Robby

Bubble
June 26, 2006 - 05:10 am
Or the deer would not stray higher up the mountain because the plants they feed on do not grow at higher altitude.

Mippy
June 26, 2006 - 05:50 am
Darwin was trained in Geology. Here is a paraphrased quote from the link below:

"Professor Adam Sedgwick was the Woodwardian Professor of Geology at Cambridge University ... one of the most renowned geologists in all of England. Darwin was introduced to Sedgwick by Henslow during his third year at Cambridge after Darwin expressed an interest in exploring the Canary Islands. In spring of ... 1831 Darwin attended many of Sedgwick's geology lectures and ... found them most enjoyable. Seeing that a knowledge of field geology would benefit Darwin on his Canary Island excursion, Sedgwick and Darwin went on a geological tour of North Wales during the summer of 1831. The knowledge Darwin gained from Sedgwick turned out to be of invaluable use during his voyage around the world on the Beagle.

Here's the link: Darwin's Life

Mallylee
June 26, 2006 - 10:22 am
I think that the grounding in geology would assist Darwin, and future scientists to seek out evidence before finalising theories. Geological strata are so evidently in layers that represent eras, and it would be unthinkable to do geology without the evidence from the strata

robert b. iadeluca
June 26, 2006 - 03:34 pm
"As allied or representative species, when inhabiting a continuous area, are generally distributed in such a manner that each has a wide range -- with a comparatively narrow neutral territory between them, in which they become rather suddenly rarer and rarer -- then, as varieties do not essentially differ from species, the same rule will probably apply to both.

"If we take a varying species inhabiting a very large area, we shall have to adapt two varieties to two large areas, and a third variety to a narrow intermediate zone.

"The intermediate variety, consequently, will exist in lesser numbers from inhabiting a narrow and lesser area. Practically, as far as I can make out, this rule holds good with varieties in a state of nature.

"I have met with striking instances of the rule in the case of varieties intermediate between well-marked varieties in the genus Balanus.

"It would appear from information given me by Mr. Watson, Dr. Asa Gray, and Mr. Wollaston, that generally, when varieties intermediate between two other forms occur, they are much rarer numerically than the forms which they connect.

"Now, if we may trust these facts and inferences -- and conclude that varieties linking two other varieties together generally have existed in lesser numbers than the forms which they connect -- then we can understand why intermediate varieties should not endure for very long periods -- why, as a general rule, they should be exterminated and disappear, sooner than the forms which they originally linked together."

Darwin starts off with the comment that varieties do not differ substantially from species. (After all, they are merely intermediate organsims between species.)

He asks us to paint a picture in our heads. Here are two large areas with each one supporting a variety. In between them is a narrow area also supporting a variety. Because the third variety has a smaller area, there are less of them.

However, this third variety in a sense links the other two. And because there are less of them, they die faster and we do not see them many eons later.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 27, 2006 - 03:23 am
"Any form existing in lesser numbers would, as already remarked, run a greater chance of being exterminated than one existing in large numbers. In this particular case the intermediate form would be eminently liable to the inroads of closely-allied forms existing on both sides of it.

"But it is a far more important consideration -- that during the process of further modification, by which two varieties are supposed to be converted and perfected into two distinct species -- the two which exist in larger numbers, from inhabiting larger areas, will have a great advantage over the intermediate variety -- which exists in smaller numbers in a narrow and intermediate zone.

"For forms existing in larger numbers will have a better chance, within any given period, of presenting further favourable variations for natural selection to seize on, than will the rarer forms which exist in lesser numbers.

"Hence, the more common forms, in the race for life, will tend to beat and supplant the less common forms. These will be more slowly modified and improved.

"It is the same principle which, as I believe, accounts for the common species in each country presenting on an average a greater number of well-marked varieties than do the rarer species.

"I may illustrate what I mean by supposing three varieties of sheep to be kept -- one adapted to an extensive mountainous region -- a second to a comparatively narrow, hilly tract -- and a third to the wide plains at the base. The inhabitants are all trying with equal steadiness and skill to improve their stocks by selection.

"The chances in this case will be strongly in favour of the great holders on the mountains or on the plains, improving their breeds more quickly than the small holders on the intermediate narrow, hilly tract.

"Consequently the improved mountain or plain breed will soon take the place of the less improved hill breed. Thus the two breeds, which originally existed in greater numbers, will come into close contact with each other, without the interposition of the supplanted, intermediate hill variety."

What I understand is that if there are less of a particular variety, they will be more easily exterminated.

Darwin gives as an example two large areas, mountains and plains, each with large numbers of a variety of sheep. In between is a small hilly area with less numbers of sheep. The larger numbers of the mountain or plains sheep will gradually improve and the lesser numbers of the hilly sheep will gradually die.

There being no more hill sheep, the mountain and plains sheep will come in contact with each other.

Robby

JoanK
June 27, 2006 - 11:10 am
"Or the deer would not stray higher up the mountain because the plants they feed on do not grow at higher altitude."

Bird watchers like to point to a mountain in the West (I've forgotten exactly where) where there are many different bird populations, each inhabiting a narrow band of altitude to which they are suited.

Mallylee
June 28, 2006 - 01:25 am
The word 'speciation' sounds clumsy, but I find that 'speciation' helps me to understand Darwin here, where he is writing about one of the mechanisms by which distinct species emerge from mere varieties

Bubble
June 28, 2006 - 02:03 am
The exeption to the rule?

bats

Mallylee
June 28, 2006 - 03:29 am
Bubble the bats are exceptional aren't they!

robert b. iadeluca
June 28, 2006 - 03:46 am
"To sum up, I believe that species come to be tolerably well-defined objects, and do not at any one period present an inextricable chaos of varying and intermediate links.

"First, because new varieties are very slowly formed, for variation is a slow process.

"Natural selection can do nothing until favourable individual differences or variations occur -- and until a place in the natural polity of the country can be better filled by some modification of some one or more of its inhabitants.

"And such new places will depend on slow changes of climate -- or on the occasional immigration of new inhabitants -- and, probably, in a still more important degree, on some of the old inhabitants becoming slowly modified, with the new forms thus produced -- and the old ones acting and reacting on each other.

"So that, in any one region and at any one time, we ought to see only a few species presenting slight modifications of structure in some degree permanent. This assuredly we do see."

Darwin is telling us, I believe, that there is no doubt when a variation becomes a specie.

Robby

Adrbri
June 28, 2006 - 03:43 pm
Now there is a SNAKE that changes colour.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25689-2244704,00.html

Brian

robert b. iadeluca
June 29, 2006 - 03:56 am
"Secondly -- areas now continuous must often have existed within the recent period as isolated portions.

"Many forms, more especially amongst the classes which unite for each birth and wander much, may have separately been rendered sufficiently distinct to rank as representative species.

"In this, case, intermediate varieties between the several representative species and their common parent, must formerly have existed within each isolated portion of the land.

"But these links during the process of natural selection will have been supplanted and exterminated, so that they will no longer be found in a living state."

Comments?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 30, 2006 - 04:33 am
"Thirdly, when two or more varieties have been formed in different portions of a strictly continuous area, intermediate varieties will -- it is probable -- at first have been formed in the intermediate zones. But they will generally have had a short duration.

"These intermediate varieties will, from reasons already assigned -- namely from what we know of the actual distribution of closely allied or representative species, and likewise of acknowledged varieties -- exist in the intermediate zones in lesser numbers than the varieties which they tend to connect.

"From this cause alone the intermediate varieties will be liable to accidental extermination; and during the process of further modification through natural selection.

"They will almost certainly be beaten and supplanted by the forms which they connect. For these from existing in greater numbers will, in the aggregate, present more varieties, and thus be further improved through natural selection and gain further advantages."

What I get from this is, very simply, the less number of organisms there are, the more likely the variety will die. Yes? No?

Robby

Mallylee
June 30, 2006 - 02:14 pm
Yes, I think so Robby. I expect that is why human females were required to be very very fertile when humans lived in small, vulnerable and isolated groups.

But I am puzzled as to what Darwin meant by intermediate zones. There are plants that prefer to have their roots in water margins rather than immersed in water. There are varieties that positively revel in their tidal pools on rocky shores. Animal species such as rats and foxes are so adaptable that they can enjoy earning their livings in town drains or city graveyards ; I cant imagine either of these species being stopped or caused to speciate more by having to live in intermediate areas.

robert b. iadeluca
June 30, 2006 - 03:20 pm
Anybody have an answer to Mallylee's question?

Robby

Adrbri
July 1, 2006 - 09:11 am
There is no short answer to this question, but I think that reading the following article from the BBC Evolution site - - - http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/darwin/origin/oos6_1.htm - - - will give you a long answer.

I have found the site of great help in trying to follow the discussion.

Brian

robert b. iadeluca
July 3, 2006 - 03:53 am
On the Origin and Transitions of Organic Beings with peculiar Habits and Structure

robert b. iadeluca
July 3, 2006 - 03:58 am
"It has been asked by the opponents of such views as I hold, how, for instance, could a land carnivorous animal have been converted into one with aquatic habits. How could the animal in its transitional state have subsisted?

"It would be easy to show that there now exist carnivorous animals presenting close intermediate grades from strictly terrestrial to aquatic habits. As each exists by a struggle for life, it is clear that each must be well adapted to its place in nature.

"Look at the Mustela vision of North America, which has webbed feet, and which resembles an otter in its fur, short legs, and form of tail. During the summer this animal dives for and preys on fish, but during the long winter it leaves the frozen waters, and preys, like other pole-cats, on mice and land animals.

"If a different case had been taken, and it had been asked how an insectivorous quadruped could possibly have been converted into a flying bat, the question would have been far more difficult to answer. Yet I think such difficulties have little weight.

Any comments on organisms which are both aquatic and terrestrial?

Robby

Bubble
July 3, 2006 - 04:12 am
There are many amphibians. the crocodile for example. I wonder if some turtles are too. I know there are ome aquatic and some terrestrial, but don't remember if they could be some that are both.

robert b. iadeluca
July 5, 2006 - 04:32 am
"Look at the family of squirrels.

"Here we have the finest gradation from animals with their tails only slightly flattened -- and from others, as Sir J. Richardson has remarked, with the posterior part of their bodies rather wide and with the skin on their flanks rather full -- to the so-called flying squirrels. Flying squirrels have their limbs and even the base of the tail united by a broad expanse of skin, which serves as a parachute and allows them to glide through the air to an astonishing distance from tree to tree.

"We cannot doubt that each structure is of use to each kind of squirrel in its own country, by enabling it to escape birds or beasts of prey -- to collect food more quickly -- or, as there is reason to believe, to lessen the danger from occasional falls.

"But it does not follow from this fact that the structure of each squirrel is the best that it is possible to conceive under all possible conditions.

"Let the climate and vegetation change, let other competing rodents or new beasts of prey immigrate, or old ones become modified, and all analogy would lead us to believe that some at least of the squirrels would decrease in numbers or become exterminated, unless they also become modified and improved in structure in a corresponding manner.

"Therefore, I can see no difficulty, more especially under changing conditions of life, in the continued preservation of individuals with fuller and fuller flank membranes -- each modification being useful, each being propagated, until -- by the accumulated effects of this process of natural selection -- a perfect so-called flying squirrel was produced."

I believe that Darwin is saying here that changes which are beneficial continue through the process of natural selection.

Robby

Mallylee
July 5, 2006 - 09:32 am
Bubble, I understand that sea turtles lay their eggs in sand, and the babies are born in the sand then have to work hard to get into the sea water, I think, pretty soon after hatching.

Mallylee
July 5, 2006 - 09:35 am
I wonder why naked humans did not develop great flaps of fatty skin on their arms so they could wrap this around themselves to keep warm.

Bubble
July 5, 2006 - 10:14 am
Because they were furry to start with?

Thanks about the baby turtles. I had forgotten that detail. so they too are amphibians. Dolphins don't breathe in water, but they still have their pups in the sea.

Mallylee
July 5, 2006 - 11:22 pm
I wonder why humans did not evolve better spines. Any wild dog variety with such poor spinal engineering would have been submerged by the tide of more efficient varieties

Mallylee
July 5, 2006 - 11:28 pm
I wonder why humans did not evolve better spines. Any wild dog variety with such poor spinal engineering would have been submerged by the tide of more efficient varieties.

Bubble
July 5, 2006 - 11:37 pm
The spine was OK when running, hunting, being active.

It is when we pampered ourselves with cars, TV armchairs, soft beds and sound alarms all around us, together with processed food and lots of junk that we became as we are. lol

Mallylee
July 5, 2006 - 11:54 pm
There is, however, only one Honorary Doctorate in Amphibious Studies: it was awarded to Kermit the Frog in 1996 by Long Island's Southampton College (whatever that is).

(from today's Guardian : scathing comment on honorary degrees)

Mallylee
July 5, 2006 - 11:57 pm
That's a thought Bubble. As a matter of fact, my son has sorted his lower back pain with regular exercises. I wish I could remember the name of the doctor who wrote instructions for the spine strengthening exercises in his published book. They worked for my very down-to-earth son, who still practises the exercises religiously

robert b. iadeluca
July 6, 2006 - 03:14 am
"Now look at the Galeopithecus or so-called flying lemur, which formerly was ranked amongst bats, but is now believed to belong to the Insectivora.

"An extremely wide flank membrane stretches from the corners of the jaw to the tail, and includes the limbs with the elongated fingers. This flank-membrane is furnished with an extensor muscle.

"Although no graduated links of structure -- fitted for gliding through the air -- now connect the Galeopithecus with the other Insectivora, yet there is no difficulty in supposing that such links formerly existed -- and that each was developed in the same manner as with the less perfectly gliding squirrels -- each grade of structure having been useful to its possessor.

"Nor can I see any insuperable difficulty in further believing that the membrane connected fingers and fore-arm of the Galeopithecus might have been greatly lengthened by natural selection. This, as far as the organs of flight are concerned, would have converted the animal into a bat.

"In certain bats in which the wing-membrane extends from the top of the shoulder to the tail and includes the hind-legs, we perhaps see traces of an apparatus originally fitted for gliding through the air rather than for flight."

Comments, please?

Robby

Mallylee
July 7, 2006 - 01:16 am
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1814673,00.html

Mallylee
July 7, 2006 - 01:20 am
Well, there is a potential difficulty now in connecting flying lemurs and bats. Or. as it turns out, there may be no problem at all.

Genetics can establish finally how closely related flying lemurs and bats actually are.

Would n't it be nice if spirits did return?

robert b. iadeluca
July 8, 2006 - 04:12 am
"If about a dozen genera of birds were to become extinct, who would have ventured to surmise that birds might have existed which used their wings solely as flappers, like the logger-headed duck (Micropterus of Eyton) -- as fins in the water and as front-legs on the land, like the penguin -- as sails, like the ostrich -- and functionally for no purpose, like the Apteryx?

"Yet the structure of each of these birds is good for it, under the conditions of life to which it is exposed, for each has to live by a struggle.

"But it is not necessarily the best possible under all possible conditions. It must not be inferred from these remarks that any of the grades of wing-structure here alluded to -- which perhaps may all be the result of disuse -- indicate the steps by which birds actually acquired their perfect power of flight. But they serve to show what diversified means of transition are at least possible.

"Seeing that a few members of such water-breathing classes as the Crustacea and Mollusca are adapted to live on the land -- and seeing that we have flying birds and mammals -- flying insects of the most diversified types -- and formerly had flying reptiles, it is conceivable that flying-fish, which now glide far through the air, slightly rising and turning by the aid of their fluttering fins, might have been modified into perfectly winged animals.

"If this had been effected, who would have ever imagined that in an early transitional state they had been the inhabitants of the open ocean, and had used their incipient organs of flight exclusively, as far as we know, to escape being devoured by other fish?"

When we think about it, there are some amazing creatures on this planet. The key phrase, as I see it, that Darwin uses is that these "odd" modifications come about due to "the conditions of life to which it is exposed." Environment is apparently extremely important.

And now - consider the fact that global warming which is caused by human beings is changing the environment. How will this affect the creatures of today as the hundreds and thousands of years pass?

Robby

Bubble
July 8, 2006 - 04:26 am
we will go back to being an aquatic species, or will become a subterranean one, depending on technology.

Malryn
July 8, 2006 - 04:37 am

What type of technology? There are all kinds. How can anyone be sure of anything?

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 10, 2006 - 03:06 am
"When we see any structure highly perfected for any particular habit -- as the wings of a bird for flight -- we should bear in mind that animals displaying early transitional grades of the structure will seldom have survived to the present day. They will have been supplanted by their successors, which were gradually rendered more perfect through natural selection.

"Furthermore, we may conclude that transitional states between structures fitted for very different habits of life will rarely have been developed at an early period in great numbers and under many subordinate forms.

"Thus, to return to our imaginary illustration of the flying-fish -- it does not seem probable that fishes capable of true flight would have been developed under many subordinate forms, for taking prey of many kinds in many ways, on the land and in the water -- until their organs of flight had come to a high stage of perfection, so as to have given them a decided advantage over other animals in the battle for life.

"Hence the chance of discovering species with transitional grades of structure in a fossil condition will always be less, from their having existed in lesser numbers, than in the case of species with fully developed structures."

If I get this, Darwin is saying that natural selection constantly leads organisms to greater and greater perfection. Because there are smaller amounts of transitional periods as they lead toward perfection, there would be less fossils for us to find. Yes? No?

Robby

Bubble
July 10, 2006 - 03:19 am
There are less organisms in number during the transition periods and these periods would be short compared to when perfection is attained and organisms can multiply in longer stretches of time.

Mallylee
July 10, 2006 - 02:59 pm
Yes I think so, The absence of transitional fossils is not such a bone of contention as it used to be, with the creationist people, since they invented 'intelligent design'.

robert b. iadeluca
July 10, 2006 - 05:23 pm
"I will now give two or three instances both of diversified and of changed habits in the individuals of the same species.

"In either case it would be easy for natural selection to adapt the structure of the animal to its changed habits, or exclusively to one of its several habits.

"It is, however, difficult to decide, and immaterial for us, whether habits generally change first and structure afterwards -- or whether slight modifications of structure lead to changed habits -- both probably often occurring almost simultaneously.

"Of cases of changed habits it will suffice merely to allude to that of the many British insects which now feed on exotic plants, or exclusively on artificial substances.

"Of diversified habits innumerable instances could be given. I have often watched a tyrant flycatcher (Saurophagus sulphuratus) in South America, hovering over one spot and then proceeding to another, like a kestrel -- and at other times standing stationary on the margin of water, and then dashing into it like a kingfisher at a fish.

"In our own country the larger titmouse (Parus major) may be seen climbing branches, almost like a creeper. It sometimes, like a shrike, kills small birds by blows on the head. I have many times seen and heard it hammering the seeds of the yew on a branch, and thus breaking them like a nuthatch.

"In North America the black bear was seen by Hearne swimming for hours with widely open mouth, thus catching, almost like a whale, insects in the water."

What changes first -- habits or structure?

Robby

Mallylee
July 10, 2006 - 10:20 pm
Does that depend on how flexibly the creature can respond to its environment? I cant imagine that any of the plants in my garden would move towards the bird bath during the drought

Mallylee
July 10, 2006 - 10:22 pm
now that I think of it, that is what intelligence is, isn't it? The ability to respond to circumstances?

robert b. iadeluca
July 12, 2006 - 03:51 am
"As we sometimes see individuals following habits different from those proper to their species and to the other species of the same genus, we might expect that such individuals would occasionally give rise to new species -- having anomalous habits -- and with their structure either slightly or considerably modified from that of their type.

"And such instances occur in nature.

"Can a more striking instance of adaptation be given than that of a woodpecker for climbing trees and seizing insects in the chinks of the bark? Yet in North America there are woodpeckers which feed largely on fruit, and others with elongated wings which chase insects on the wing.

"On the plains of La Plata, where hardly a tree grows, there is a woodpecker (Colaptes campestris) which has two toes before and two behind, a long pointed tongue, pointed tail-feathers, sufficiently stiff to support the bird in a vertical position on a post, but not so stiff as in the typical woodpeckers, and a straight strong beak.

"The beak, however, is not so straight or so strong as in the typical woodpeckers, but it is strong enough to bore into wood. Hence this Colaptes in all the essential parts of its structure is a woodpecker. Even in such trifling characters as the colouring, the harsh tone of the voice, and undulatory flight, its close blood-relationship to our common woodpecker is plainly declared.

"Yet, as I can assert, not only from my own observation, but from those of the accurate Azara, in certain large districts it does not climb trees, and it makes its nest in holes in banks!

"In certain other districts, however, this same woodpecker, as Mr. Hudson states, frequents trees, and bores holes in the trunk for its nest.

"I may mention as another illustration of the varied habits of this genus, that a Mexican Colaptes has been described by De Saussure as boring holes into hard wood in order to lay up a store of acorns."

Comments, please?

Robby

Bubble
July 12, 2006 - 05:01 am
"the fearsome fossils were among 20 previously unknown species uncovered at a site in northwest Queensland state."

fossils

"the team was studying the fossils to better understand how they were affected by changing climates in the Miocene epoch between 5 million and 24 million years ago. "

Scrawler
July 12, 2006 - 10:37 am
So tell me why does my local woodpecker insist on pecking the alluminum street lamp at 4:00 AM? Is it just to annoy me!

robert b. iadeluca
July 12, 2006 - 04:55 pm
"He who believes that each being has been created as we now see it, must occasionally have felt surprise when he has met with an animal having habits and structure not in agreement.

"What can be plainer than that the webbed feet of ducks and geese are formed for swimming? Yet there are upland geese with webbed feet which rarely go near the water.

"No one except Audubon has seen the frigate-bird, which has all its four toes webbed, alight on the surface of the ocean.

"On the other hand, grebes and coots are eminently aquatic, although their toes are only bordered by membrane.

"What seems plainer than that the long toes, not furnished with membrane, of the Grallatores are formed for walking over swamps and floating plants? The water-hen and landrail are members of this order, yet the first is nearly as aquatic as the coot, and the second nearly as terrestrial as the quail or partridge.

"In such cases, and many others could be given, habits have changed without a corresponding change of structure.

"The webbed feet of the upland goose may be said to have become almost rudimentary in function, though not in structure. In the frigate-bird, the deeply scooped membrane between the toes shows that structure has begun to change."

Do the habits of animals change even while their structure remains the same? Could that be true for human beings?

Robby

Bubble
July 12, 2006 - 11:46 pm
Are you thinking of our fragile spine, Robby?

Malryn
July 13, 2006 - 12:36 am
EVOLUTION OF THE INSECTS

robert b. iadeluca
July 13, 2006 - 04:27 am
"He who believes in separate and innumerable acts of creation may say, that in these cases it has pleased the Creator to cause a being of one type to take the place of one belonging to another type.

"But this seems to me only re-stating the fact in dignified language.

"He who believes in the struggle for existence and in the principle of natural selection, will acknowledge that every organic being is constantly endeavouring to increase in numbers. If any one being varies ever so little -- either in habits or structure, and thus gains an advantage over some other inhabitant of the same country -- it will seize on the place of that inhabitant, however different that may be from its own place.

"Hence it will cause him no surprise that there should be geese and frigatebirds with webbed feet, living on the dry land and rarely alighting on the water -- that there should be long-toed corncrakes, living in meadows instead of in swamps -- that there should be woodpeckers where hardly a tree grows -- that there should be diving thrushes and diving Hymenoptera, and petrels with the habits of auks."

Darwin is treading on dangerous ground here, isn't he?

Robby

Bubble
July 13, 2006 - 05:40 am
In his time he certainly was. It reminds me of Galileo explaining his theories. Same danger.

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2006 - 03:41 am
Organs of extreme Perfection and Complication

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2006 - 03:47 am
"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.

"When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false. The old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei, as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science.

"Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist -- each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case -- if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life -- then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection -- though insuperable by our imagination -- should not be considered as subversive of the theory.

"How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself originated. But I may remark that -- as some of the lowest organisms, in which nerves cannot be detected -- are capable of perceiving light, it does not seem impossible that certain sensitive elements in their sarcode should become aggregated and developed into nerves, endowed with this special sensibility."

What does your reason tell you?

Robby

Bubble
July 14, 2006 - 04:31 am
reason tells that it is always possible to improve and perfection can be stretched further and further.

Mallylee
July 14, 2006 - 02:56 pm
The chameleon can change its colour according to the wavelength of the light of its background.

I think there are some fishes that do this too. Does the squid change its colour to match its background?

These changes are initiated by change in the light wavelengths of the background, as I understand it. The skin cells of the creatures are sensitive to light, but I suppose that their central nervous systems are not sensitive to light. I wonder if nerve cells being sensitive to light is initially related to sense of discomfort in a bright light, for instance through pain receptors. Perhaps the heat of the sun began the selection process, by causing irritation, and the creature was able to move away from the source of heat irritation. Maybe this was an advance on the amoeba's ability to move itself away from irritants in its ambient fluid

robert b. iadeluca
July 15, 2006 - 04:38 am
"In searching for the gradations through which an organ in any species has been perfected, we ought to look exclusively to its lineal progenitors.

"But this is scarcely ever possible, and we are forced to look to other species and genera of the same group -- that is to the collateral descendants from the same parent-form -- in order to see what gradations are possible -- and for the chance of some gradations having been transmitted in an unaltered or little altered condition.

"But the state of the same organ in distinct classes may incidentally throw light on the steps by which it has been perfected.

The simplest organ which can be called an eye consists of an optic nerve, surrounded by pigment-cells, and covered by translucent skin, but without any lens or other refractive body.

"We may, however, according to M. Jourdain, descend even a step lower and find aggregates of pigment-cells -- apparently serving as organs of vision, without any nerves -- and resting merely on sarcodic tissue.

"Eyes of the above simple nature are not capable of distinct vision, and serve only to distinguish light from darkness.

"In certain star-fishes, small depressions in the layer of pigment which surrounds the nerve are filled, as described by the author just quoted, with transparent gelatinous matter, projecting with a convex surface, like the cornea in the higher animals. He suggests that this serves not to form an image, but only to concentrate the luminous rays and render their perception more easy.

"In this concentration of the rays we gain the first and by far the most important step towards the formation of a true, picture-forming eye. We have only to place the naked extremity of the optic nerve -- which in some of the lower animals lies deeply buried in the body -- and in some near the surface, at the right distance from the concentrating apparatus, and an image will be formed on it."

Any comments about the eye?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 15, 2006 - 09:17 pm
"In the great class of the Articulata, we may start from an optic nerve simply coated with pigment, the latter sometimes forming a sort of pupil, but destitute of a lens or other optical contrivance.

"With insects it is now known that the numerous facets on the cornea of their great compound eyes form true lenses, and that the cones include curiously modified nervous filaments.

"But these organs in the Articulata are so much diversified that Muller formerly made three main classes with seven subdivisions, besides a fourth main class of aggregated simple eyes.

"When we reflect on these facts -- here given much too briefly, with respect to the wide, diversified, and graduated range of structure in the eyes of the lower animals -- and when we bear in mind how small the number of all living forms must be in comparison with those which have become extinct -- the difficulty ceases to be very great in believing that natural selection may have converted the simple apparatus of an optic nerve -- coated with pigment and invested by transparent membrane -- into an optical instrument as perfect as is possessed by any member of the articulate class."

Anyone interested in the eye?

Robby

Mallylee
July 16, 2006 - 01:32 am
Yes, Robby I have been reading these pages with interest. I have read Dennet and Dawkins, so I am already familiar with the general ideas of natural selection. now to read Darwin's own words is even more interestinmg; and this part about the eye is particularly clear

Thanks posting these pages

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2006 - 03:50 am
"He who will go thus far, ought not to hesitate to go one step further, if he finds on finishing this volume that large bodies of facts, otherwise inexplicable, can be explained by the theory of modification through natural selection.

"He ought to admit that a structure even as perfect as an eagle's eye might thus be formed, although in this case he does not know the transitional states.

"It has been objected that in order to modify the eye and still preserve it as a perfect instrument, many changes would have to be effected simultaneously, which, it is assumed, could not be done through natural selection. But as I have attempted to show in my work on the variation of domestic animals, it is not necessary to suppose that the modifications were all simultaneous, if they were extremely slight and gradual.

"Different kinds of modification would, also, serve for the same general purpose: as Mr. Wallace has remarked, "if a lens has too short or too long a focus, it may be amended either by an alteration of curvature, or an alteration of density. If the curvature be irregular, and the rays do not converge to a point, then any increased regularity of curvature will be an improvement.

"So the contraction of the iris and the muscular movements of the eye are neither of them essential to vision, but only improvements which might have been added and perfected at any stage of the construction of the instrument."

"Within the highest division of the animal kingdom -- namely, the Vertebrata -- we can start from an eye so simple, that it consists -- as in the lancelet -- of a little sack of transparent skin, furnished with a nerve and lined with pigment, but destitute of any other apparatus.

"In fishes and reptiles, as Owen has remarked, "the range of gradations of dioptric structures is very great."

"It is a significant fact that even in man -- according to the high authority of Virchow -- the beautiful crystalline lens is formed in the embryo by an accumulation of epidermic cells, lying in a sack-like fold of the skin. The vitreous body is formed from embryonic sub-cutaneous tissue.

"To arrive, however, at a just conclusion regarding the formation of the eye, with all its marvellous yet not absolutely perfect characters, it is indispensable that the reason should conquer the imagination. I have felt the difficulty far too keenly to be surprised at others hesitating to extend the principle of natural selection to so startling a length."

In this paragraph Darwin is quizzing the reader. He is asking: "Can you now doubt that no matter how complicated the structure of an organism may be, that it can come into being through natural selection?"

Any disbelievers or doubters here?

Robby

Mallylee
July 16, 2006 - 11:15 pm
I never was a doubter, but I still benefit from reading Darwin's words. because the full story of all the insights into the working of natural selection is complex. This layest opart, about the evolution of the eye, I find easy to understand, but the previous arguments about territories and habitats was difficult.

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2006 - 03:06 am
"It is scarcely possible to avoid comparing the eye with a telescope.

"We know that this instrument has been perfected by the long-continued efforts of the highest human intellects; and we naturally infer that the eye has been formed by a somewhat analogous process. But may not this inference be presumptuous?

"Have we any right to assume that the Creator works by intellectual powers like those of man? If we must compare the eye to an optical instrument, we ought in imagination to take a thick layer of transparent tissue -- with spaces filled with fluid -- and with a nerve sensitive to light beneath -- and then suppose every part of this layer to be continually changing slowly in density -- so as to separate into layers of different densities and thicknesses -- placed at different distances from each other -- and with the surfaces of each layer slowly changing in form.

"Further we must suppose that there is a power, represented by natural selection or the survival of the fittest -- always intently watching each slight alteration in the transparent layers -- and carefully preserving each which, under varied circumstances, in any way or in any degree, tends to produce a distincter image.

"We must suppose each new state of the instrument to be multiplied by the million -- each to be preserved until a better one is produced, and then the old ones to be all destroyed.

"In living bodies, variation will cause the slight alterations -- generation will multiply them almost infinitely -- and natural selection will pick out with unerring skill each improvement.

"Let this process go on for millions of years -- and during each year on millions of individuals of many kinds. May we not believe that a living optical instrument might thus be formed as superior to one of glass, as the works of the Creator are to those of man?"

What are your thoughts about this?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 18, 2006 - 06:28 am
I am about to leave for a much-needed vacation and will attend Eloise's Bash in Montreal. I will return Monday and will post again either Monday evening or Tuesday morning.

I hope that those of you still with us (even lurkers!) will add a comment or two, and I urge everyone to continue to pretend that we are living in the time of Darwin and know nothing about genes, DNA, or anything else from the 20th-21st century.

When I return, we will begin Darwin's next section which is "Modes of Transition."

Robby

Malryn
July 24, 2006 - 07:54 am

"Surprising as it may seem, there was little sustained opposition to Darwin's book (The Origin of Species) on the grounds that it directly challenged the account of creation in Genesis. Learned biblical study since the Enlightenment had encouraged Christians increasingly to regard the early stories as potent metaphors rather than literal accounts. The real challenge of Darwinism for Victorians was that it turned life into an amoral chaos displaying no evidence of a divine authority or any sense of purpose or design."

Original spin

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2006 - 03:32 am
I'm back, folks, but will need another 24 hours to get my wits in order.

Robby

Mallylee
July 25, 2006 - 08:04 am
Interesting read, Malryn

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2006 - 03:21 am
Modes of Transition

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2006 - 03:28 am
"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find out no such case.

"No doubt many organs exist of which we do not know the transitional grades, more especially if we look to much-isolated species, round which, according to the theory, there has been much extinction.

"Or again, if we take an organ common to all the members of a class -- for in this latter case the organ must have been originally formed at a remote period, since which all the many members of the class have been developed. In order to discover the early transitional grades through which the organ has passed, we should have to look to very ancient ancestral forms, long since become extinct."

Darwin is convinced that complex organs must have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications.

How about you folks? Agree? Disagree?

Any lurkers here?

Robby

Adrbri
July 26, 2006 - 05:46 am
I'm a constant lurker, but a seldom poster.

I have enjoyed the info and gentle badinage for several months.

I salute you, Robby for your constancy and your obvious pleasure in what you do, and do so well. And I hope you enjoyed your trip to Montreal.

Brian

robert b. iadeluca
July 28, 2006 - 04:01 am
"We should be extremely cautious in concluding that an organ could not have been formed by transitional gradations of some kind.

"Numerous cases could be given amongst the lower animals of the same organ performing at the same time wholly distinct functions.

"Thus in the larva of the dragon-fly and in the fish Cobitis the alimentary canal respires, digests, and excretes.

"In the Hydra, the animal may be turned inside out, and the exterior surface will then digest and the stomach respire.

"In such cases natural selection might specialise -- if any advantage were thus gained -- the whole or part of an organ, which had previously performed two functions, for one function alone -- and thus by insensible steps greatly change its nature.

"Many plants are known which regularly produce at the same time differently constructed flowers. If such plants were to produce one kind alone, a great change would be effected with comparative suddenness in the character of the species.

It is, however, probable that the two sorts of flowers borne by the same plant were originally differentiated by finely graduated steps, which may still be followed in some few cases."

This is amazing when you think of it. Any organ could change its function to a function entirely different if it were to the benefit of the organism. Naturally this would occur in impercetable steps over thousands/millions of years.

I think of the brain, for instance. If part of the left hemisphere of the brain is injured in a very young infant, sometimes parts of the right hemisphere which ordinarily don't handle such functions, take over that responsibility.

Robby

Bubble
July 28, 2006 - 04:42 am
Becoming left handed when the right hand loses its function also requires some brain work. I have seen a person born without hands typing on the k/b with her toes, better and faster than I do with my two hands.

Apparently primary cells or stem cells from fatty tissues have the possibility to grow into any type of other cells. So maybe this adaptability of organs is an inherent part of living cells.

Mallylee
July 28, 2006 - 09:14 am
When the Planet becomes uninhabitable by mammals I wonder if hydras and other low-specification organisms will have a chance of survival

robert b. iadeluca
July 29, 2006 - 10:20 am
"Again, two distinct organs -- or the same organ under two very different forms -- may simultaneously perform in the same individual the same function. This is an extremely important means of transition.

"To give one instance,- there are fish with gills or branchiae that breathe the air dissolved in the water -- at the same time that they breathe free air in their swimbladders -- this latter organ being divided by highly vascular partitions and having a ductus pneumaticus for the supply of air.

"To give another instance from the vegetable kingdom -- plants climb by three distinct means, by spirally twining, by clasping a support with their sensitive tendrils, and by the emission of aerial rootlets.

"These three means are usually found in distinct groups. But some few species exhibit two of the means, or even all three, combined in the same individual.

"In all such cases one of the two organs might readily be modified and perfected so as to perform all the work, being aided during the progress of modification by the other organ. Then this other organ might be modified for some other and quite distinct purpose, or be wholly obliterated."

I wonder if the two different hemispheres of the brain are an example of two distinct organs -- and they are distinct -- performing the same function. Then there are two kidneys and two lungs.

What do you people think?

Robby

Bubble
July 29, 2006 - 10:27 am
Personally I think they act as spare parts or safety modules. As for the brain I think there is a lot to it not in use (yet, or any more?).

Scrawler
July 29, 2006 - 10:46 am
Personally, I think they come from the same organ but act like to different forms and one form is more perfected than the other or perhaps a better way of saying it is that one form is more dominate than the other.

Mallylee
July 30, 2006 - 12:51 am
Bi-symmetry seems to be the rule among animals. I wonder if flat fishes that have developed eyes on the top sides of their otherwise symmetrical bodies are among the exceptions to the rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetry_(biology)

N.B there is a close connection between symmetry and patterning. Biological symmetry is only approximate symmetry, unlike mathematical symmetry (I picked these facts up from this morning's googling)

Mallylee
July 30, 2006 - 01:12 am
This one has very clear coloured diagrams of the human central nervous system

http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/biobk/BioBookNERV.html

I have failed to find any info to answer Robby's question about the functions of biological symmetry. I guess that Robby's suggestion is true that it is useful for compensatory function in the event of injury. See how we can function on only one kidney, e.g. when one useful kidney is given by a donor to transplant to a person with both kidneys useless

robert b. iadeluca
July 30, 2006 - 08:43 am
"The illustration of the swimbladder in fishes is a good one, because it shows us clearly the highly important fact that an organ originally constructed for one purpose, namely, flotation, may be converted into one for a widely different purpose, namely, respiration.

"The swimbladder has, also, been worked in as an accessory to the auditory organs of certain fishes. All physiologists admit that the swimbladder is homologous, or "ideally similar" in position and structure with the lungs of the higher vertebrate animals.

"Hence there is no reason to doubt that the swimbladder has actually been converted into lungs, or an organ used exclusively for respiration.

"According to this view it may be inferred that all vertebrate animals with true lungs are descended by ordinary generation from an ancient and unknown prototype, which was furnished with a floating apparatus or swimbladder.

"We can thus, as I infer from Owen's interesting description of these parts, understand the strange fact that every particle of food and drink and which we swallow has to pass over the orifice of the trachea -- with some risk of falling into the lungs -- notwithstanding the beautiful contrivance by which the glottis is closed.

"In the higher Vertebrate the branchiae have wholly disappeared- but in the embryo the slits on the sides of the neck and the loop-like course of the arteries still mark their former position.

"But it is conceivable that the now utterly lost branchiae might have been gradually worked in by natural selection for some distinct purpose. For instance, Landois has shown that the wings of insects are developed from the tracheae.

"It is therefore highly probable that in this great class organs which once served for respiration have been actually converted into organs for flight."

Absolutely amazing! An organ originally constructed for one purpose may be converted into a widely different purpose. An organ that originally helped an organism to float now helps it to breathe. Or an organ that originally helped an organism to breathe now helps it to fly.

Humans, after millennia of modifications, are descended from blowfish??

Robby

Bubble
July 30, 2006 - 09:12 am
newborns feel much more at ease in water than in the air. They can dive without admitting water into their lungs.

robert b. iadeluca
July 31, 2006 - 04:20 am
"In considering transitions of organs, it is so important to bear in mind the probability of conversion from one function to another, that I will give another instance.

"Pedunculated cirripedes have two minute folds of skin -- called by me the ovigerous frena -- which serve, through the means of a sticky secretion, to retain the eggs until they are hatched within the sack.

"These cirripedes have no branchiae, the whole surface of the body and of the sack, together with the small frena, serving for respiration.

"The Balanidae or sessile cirripedes, on the other hand, have no ovigerous frena, the eggs lying loose at the bottom of the sack, within the well-enclosed shell. But they have -- in the same relative position with the frena -- large, much-folded membranes, which freely communicate with the circulatory lacunae of the sack and body -- and which have been considered by all naturalists to act as branchiae.

"Now I think no one will dispute that the ovigerous frena in the one family are strictly homologous with the branchiae of the other family. Indeed, they graduate into each other.

"Therefore it need not be doubted that the two little folds of skin, which originally served as ovigerous frena -- but which, likewise, very slightly aided in the act of respiration -- have been gradually converted by natural selection into branchiae simply through an increase in their size and the obliteration of their adhesive glands.

"If all pedunculated cirripedes had become extinct, and they have suffered far more extinction than have sessile cirripedes, who would ever have imagined that the branchiae in this latter family had originally existed as organs for preventing the ova from being washed out of the sack?"

An organism where the whole surface of the body serves for respiration?

Robby

Bubble
July 31, 2006 - 05:09 am
The whole of our skin serves as a cooling system with its sudoriferous glands...

GingerWright
July 31, 2006 - 05:38 am
I think a hat in winter keeps the heat in and in summer keeps the cold in our bodies,

robert b. iadeluca
August 2, 2006 - 04:10 am
Ginger:-Good to see you here!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 2, 2006 - 04:17 am
"There is another possible mode of transition, namely, through the acceleration or retardation of the period of reproduction.

"This has lately been insisted on by Prof. Cope and others in the United States. It is now known that some animals are capable of reproduction at a very early age, before they have acquired their perfect characters. If this power became thoroughly well developed in a species, it seems probable that the adult stage of development would sooner or later be lost. In this case, especially if the larva differed much from the mature form, the character of the species would be greatly changed and degraded.

"Again, not a few animals, after arriving at maturity, go on changing in character during nearly their whole lives. With mammals, for instance, the form of the skull is often much altered with age, of which Dr. Murie has given some striking instances with seals.

"Every one knows how the horns of stags become more and more branched, and the plumes of some birds become more finely developed, as they grow older.

"Prof. Cope states that the teeth of certain lizards change much in shape with advancing years.

"With crustaceans not only many trivial, but some important parts assume a new character, as recorded by Fritz Muller, after maturity.

"In all such cases,- and many could be given,- if the age for reproduction were retarded, the character of the species, at least in its adult state, would be modified.

"Nor is it improbable that the previous and earlier stages of development would in some cases be hurried through and finally lost.

"Whether species have often or ever been modified through this comparatively sudden mode of transition, I can form no opinion; but if this has occurred, it is probable that the differences between the young and the mature, and between the mature and the old, were primordially acquired by graduated steps."

Has the period of reproduction in human beings been accelerated? Do girls appear to arrive at puberty earlier than a generation or two ago? Does this mean, as Darwin implies, that they have "acquired their perfect characters?"

How do you see this affecting, if at all, those people who have arrived at maturity?

Robby

Bubble
August 2, 2006 - 04:32 am
Apparently puberty happens earlier than a century before. It also seems that children mature mentaly earlier as well. I am not sure if it is a question of education or if it is linked to puberty.

Scrawler
August 2, 2006 - 11:46 am
It seems to me that "puberty" changes from one period of time to another and depending on how you were raised or where you were raised it means different things to different people. For example my mother-in-law living in the 1940s was married and had her first child at the age of fourteen, but I on the other hand was married in the 1960s and didn't have my first child until I was twenty-five. In my time I was still considered a teenager at 18 while my mother-in-law at 14 years old was considered old enough to physically bear a child. Of course there was the emotional side of childbearing to think about, but I doubt that in Medieval times the emotional side of women was even considered let long thought about seriously.

robert b. iadeluca
August 2, 2006 - 02:16 pm
Special Difficulties of the Theory of Natural Selection

robert b. iadeluca
August 2, 2006 - 02:26 pm
"Although we must be extremely cautious in concluding that any organ could not have been produced by successive, small, transitional gradations, yet undoubtedly serious cases of difficulty occur.

"One of the most serious is that of neuter insects, which are often differently constructed from either the males or fertile females. This case will be treated of in the next chapter.

"The electric organs of fishes offer another case of special difficulty. It is impossible to conceive by what steps these wondrous organs have been produced. But this is not surprising. We do not even know of what use they are.

"In the Gymnotus and torpedo they no doubt serve as powerful means of defence, and perhaps for securing prey. Yet in the ray, as observed by Matteucci, an analogous organ in the tail manifests but little electricity, even when the animal is greatly irritated. So little, that it can hardly be of any use for the above purposes.

"Moreover, in the ray, besides the organ just referred to, there is -- as Dr. R. McDonnell has shown -- another organ near the head -- not known to be electrical -- but which appears to be the real homologue of the electric battery in the torpedo.

"It is generally admitted that there exists between these organs and ordinary muscle a close analogy -- in intimate structure -- in the distribution of the nerves -- and in the manner in which they are acted on by various reagents.

"It should, also, be especially observed that muscular contraction is accompanied by an electrical discharge; and -- as Dr. Radcliffe insists -- in the electrical apparatus of the torpedo during rest, there would seem be a charge in every respect like that which is met with in muscle and nerve during rest.

"The discharge of the torpedo, instead of being peculiar, may be only another form of the discharge which depends upon the action of muscle and motor nerve.

"Beyond this we cannot at present go in the way of explanation. As we know so little about the uses of these organs -- and as we know nothing about the habits and structure of the progenitors of the existing electric fishes -- it would be extremely bold to maintain that no serviceable transitions are possible by which these organs might have been gradually developed."

Darwin is admitting difficulty in figuring out how electric organs came into existence. Any ideas?

Robby

Bubble
August 3, 2006 - 12:45 am
Aren't we humans also generating electricity in our brains?

Maybe it had some more use for it that we forgot about, mmmm... levitation? I thought that was how the Indian gurus did it.

So many questions, so few answers. lol

robert b. iadeluca
August 3, 2006 - 03:28 am
"These organs appear at first to offer another and far more serious difficulty.

"They occur in about a dozen kinds of fish, of which several are widely remote in their affinities.

"When the same organ is found in several members of the same class, especially if in members having very different habits of life, we may generally attribute its presence to inheritance from a common ancestor -- and its absence in some of the members to loss through disuse or natural selection.

"If the electric organs had been inherited from some one ancient progenitor, we might have expected that all electric fishes would have been specially related to each other.

"This is far from the case.

"Nor does geology at all lead to the belief that most fishes formerly possessed electric organs, which their modified descendants have now lost.

"But when we look at the subject more closely, we find in the several fishes provided with electric organs, that these are situated in different parts of the body. They differ in construction, as in the arrangement of the plates, and -- according to Pacini -- in the process or means by which the electricity is excited-- and lastly, in being supplied with nerves proceeding from different sources.

"This is perhaps the most important of all the differences.

"In the several fishes furnished with electric organs, these cannot be considered as homologous, but only as analogous in function. Consequently there is no reason to suppose that they have been inherited from a common progenitor. Had this been the case they would have closely resembled each other in all respects.

"Thus the difficulty of an organ -- apparently the same, arising in several remotely allied species, disappears -- leaving only the lesser yet still great difficulty. Namely, by what graduated steps these organs have been developed in each separate group of fishes."

We have a mystery to solve.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 4, 2006 - 04:39 am
"The luminous organs which occur in a few insects, belonging to widely different families -- and which are situated in different parts of the body -- offer, under our present state of ignorance, a difficulty almost exactly parallel with that of the electric organs.

"Other similar cases could be given. For instance in plants, the very curious contrivance of a mass of pollen-grains -- borne on a foot-stalk with an adhesive gland -- is apparently the same in Orchis and Asclepias,- genera almost as remote as is possible amongst flowering plants.

"But here again the parts are not homologous. In all cases of beings -- far removed from each other in the scale of organisation, which are furnished with similar and peculiar organs -- it will be found that although the general appearance and function of the organs may be the same, yet fundamental differences between them can always be detected.

"For instance, the eyes of cephalopods or cuttle-fish and of vertebrate animals appear wonderfully alike. In such widely sundered groups no part of this resemblance can be due to inheritance from a common progenitor.

"Mr. Mivart has advanced this case as one of special difficulty, but I am unable to see the force of his argument.

"An organ for vision must be formed of transparent tissue, and must include some sort of lens for throwing an image at the back of a darkened chamber. Beyond this superficial resemblance, there is hardly any real similarity between the eyes of cuttle-fish and vertebrates, as may be seen by consulting Hensen's admirable memoir on these organs in the Cephalopoda.

"It is impossible for me here to enter on details, but I may specify a few of the points of difference.

"The crystalline lens in the higher cuttle-fish consists of two parts, placed one behind the other like two lenses, both having a very different structure and disposition to what occurs in the vertebrata. The retina is wholly different -- with an actual inversion of the elemental parts -- and with a large nervous ganglion included within the membranes of the eye.

"The relations of the muscles are as different as it is possible to conceive, and so in other points.

"Hence it is not a little difficult to decide how far even the same terms ought to be employed in describing the eyes of the Cephalopoda and Vertebrata.

"It is, of course, open to any one to deny that the eye in either case could have been developed through the natural selection of successive slight variations. If this be admitted in the one case, it is clearly possible in the other. Fundamental differences of structure in the visual organs of two groups might have been anticipated, in accordance with this view of their manner of formation.

"As two men have sometimes independently hit on the same invention, so in the several foregoing cases it appears that natural selection -- working for the good of each being, and taking advantage of all favourable variations -- has produced similar organs, as far as function is concerned, in distinct organic beings, which owe none of their structure in common to inheritance from a common progenitor."

Eniirely different organims, not from the same ancestors, yet having similar organs?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 5, 2006 - 03:07 pm
"Fritz Muller, in order to test the conclusions arrived at in this volume, has followed out with much care a nearly similar line of argument.

"Several families of crustaceans include a few species, possessing an air-breathing apparatus and fitted to live out of the water.

"In two of these families, which were more especially examined by Muller and which are nearly related to each other, the species agree most closely in all important characters -- namely, in their sense organs -- circulating system -- in the position of the tufts of hair within their complex stomachs -- and lastly in the whole structure of the water-breathing branchiae, even to the microscopical hooks by which they are cleansed.

"Hence it might have been expected that in the few species belonging to both families which live on the land, the equally important air-breathing apparatus would have been the same.

"Why should this one apparatus, given for the same purpose, have been made to differ, whilst all the other important organs were closely similar or rather identical?"

Once again, an organ which appears different but serves the same purpose as those which did not differ.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 6, 2006 - 05:04 am
"Fritz Muller argues that this close similarity in so many points of structure must -- in accordance with the views advanced by me -- be accounted for by inheritance from a common progenitor.

"But as the vast majority of the species in the above two families -- as well as most other crustaceans -- are aquatic in their habits, it is improbable in the highest degree, that their common progenitor should have been adapted for breathing air was thus led carefully to examine the apparatus in the air-breathing species.

"He found it to differ in each in several important points -- as in the position of the orifices -- in the manner in which they are opened and closed -- and in some accessory details.

"Now such differences are intelligible -- and might even have been expected -- on the supposition that species belonging to distinct families had slowly become adapted to live more and more out of water, and to breathe the air. These species, from belonging to distinct families, would have differed to a certain extent and in accordance with the principle that the nature of each variation depends on two factors -- viz., the nature of the organism and that of the surrounding conditions -- their variability assuredly would not have been exactly the same.

"Consequently natural selection would have had different materials or variations to work on, in order to arrive at the same functional result. The structures thus acquired would almost necessarily have differed.

"On the hypothesis of separate acts of creation the whole case remains unintelligible. This line of argument seems to have had great weight in leading Fritz Muller to accept the views maintained by me in this volume."

Once again Darwin finds "separate acts of creation" by a Creator being without logic.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 7, 2006 - 03:23 am
Any lurkers hanging around?

Robby

Bubble
August 7, 2006 - 05:57 am
No...lol

Mallylee
August 7, 2006 - 06:32 am
I find that Creationists can not be argued with. This is because the Creator God hypothesis can invariably get a bit tacked on to explain any anomaly. For instance 'If you must use that language, it's obvious that God created each variety of each species, and ordained that some varieties would not appear until later than the date of the general creation'.

I have not actually heard the particular rationalisation above. Given time, Mr Behe may think of it.

robert b. iadeluca
August 9, 2006 - 03:22 am
"Another distinguished zoologist, the late Professor Claparide, has argued in the same manner, and has arrived at the same result.

"He shows that there are parasitic mites (Acaridae), belonging to distinct sub-families and families, which are furnished with hair-claspers. These organs must have been independently developed, as they could not have been inherited from a common progenitor. In the several groups they are formed by the modification of the fore-legs -- of the hind-legs -- of the maxillae or lips -- and of appendages on the under side of the hind part of the body.

"In the foregoing cases, we see the same end gained and the same function performed, in beings not at all or only remotely allied -- by organs in appearance, though not in development -- closely similar.

"On the other hand, it is a common rule throughout nature that the same end should be gained -- even sometimes in the case of closely-related beings -- by the most diversified means.

"How differently constructed is the feathered wing of a bird and the membrane-covered wing of a bat. Still more so the four wings of a butterfly, the two wings of a fly, and the two wings with the elytra of a beetle.

"Bivalve shells are made to open and shut, but on what a number of patterns is the hinge constructed --from the long row of neatly interlocking teeth in a Nucula to the simple ligament of a Mussel!

"Seeds are disseminated by their minuteness -- by their capsule being converted into a light balloon-like envelope -- by being embedded in pulp or flesh, formed of the most diverse parts -- and rendered nutritious, as well as conspicuously coloured, so as to attract and be devoured by birds -- by having hooks and grapnels of many kinds and serrated arms, so as to adhere to the fur of quadrupeds -- and by being furnished with wings and plumes, as different in shape as they are elegant in structure, so as to be wafted by every breeze.

"I will give one other instance. This subject of the same end being gained by the most diversified means well deserves attention.

"Some authors maintain that organic beings have been formed in many ways for the sake of mere variety, almost like toys in a shop. Such a view of nature is incredible.

"With plants having separated sexes, and with those in which, though hermaphrodites, the pollen does not spontaneously fall on the stigma, some aid is necessary for their fertilisation.

"With several kinds this is effected by the pollen-grains -- which are light and incoherent -- being blown by the wind through mere chance on to the stigma. This is the simplest plan which can well be conceived.

"An almost equally simple, though very different, plan occurs in many plants in which a symmetrical flower secretes a few drops of nectar, and is consequently visited by insects. These carry the pollen from the anthers to the stigma."

Darwin gives example after example showing that Natural Selection may arrive at the same end through amazingly different ways. As Darwin says:- "The same end being gained by the most diversified means."

Robby

Bubble
August 9, 2006 - 11:05 am
Breakthrough gives 3-D vision of dawn of life

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060809/sc_nm/science_life_dc_1

robert b. iadeluca
August 9, 2006 - 02:33 pm
Bubble:-I find it incredible that we can examine less than 1,000th of a millimeter of a fossil!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 9, 2006 - 05:28 pm
"From this simple stage we may pass through an inexhaustible number of contrivances -- all for the same purpose and effected in essentially the same manner -- but entailing changes in every part of the flower.

"The nectar may be stored in variously shaped receptacles -- with the stamens and pistils modified in many ways, sometimes forming trap-like contrivances -- and sometimes capable of neatly adapted movements through irritability or elasticity.

"From such structures we may advance till we come to such a case of extraordinary adaptation as that lately described by Dr. Cruger in the Coryanthes.

"This orchid has part of its labellum or lower lip hollowed out into a great bucket, into which drops of almost pure water continually fall from two secreting horns which stand above it. When the bucket is half full, the water overflows by a spout on one side.

"The basal part of the labellum stands over the bucket, and is itself hollowed out into a sort of chamber with two lateral entrances. Within this chamber there are curious fleshy ridges.

"The most ingenious man, if he had not witnessed what takes place, could never have imagined what purpose all these parts serve. But Dr. Cruger saw crowds of large humble-bees visiting the gigantic flowers of this orchid -- not in order to suck nectar -- but to gnaw off the ridges within the chamber above the bucket.

"In doing this they frequently pushed each other into the bucket, and their wings being thus wetted they could not fly away, but were compelled to crawl out through the passage formed by the spout or overflow.

"Dr. Cruger saw a "continual procession" of bees thus crawling out of their involuntary bath. The passage is narrow, and is roofed over by the column, so that a bee, in forcing its way out, first rubs its back against the viscid stigma and then against the viscid glands of the pollen-masses. The pollen-masses are thus glued to the back of the bee which first happens to crawl out through the passage of a lately expanded flower, and are thus carried away.

"Dr. Cruger sent me a flower in spirits of wine, with a bee which he had killed before it had quite crawled out with a pollen-mass still fastened to its back.

"When the bee, thus provided, flies to another flower -- or to the same flower a second time, and is pushed by its comrades into the bucket and then crawls out by the passage -- the pollen-mass necessarily comes first into contact with the viscid stigma, and adheres to it, and the flower is fertilised.

"Now at last we see the full use of every part of the flower -- of the water-secreting horns -- of the bucket half full of water, which prevents the bees from flying away, and forces them to crawl out through the spout -- and rub against the properly placed viscid pollen-masses and the viscid stigma."

This is absolutely amazing! Read it in detail.

Robby

Marjorie
August 9, 2006 - 07:34 pm
There is a link at the bottom of the heading to the beginning of this discussion that is in our Archives.

Bubble
August 9, 2006 - 11:53 pm
How intricate a process, Robby! I had to read it three times to fully see the picture in my mind. Is that water sweet?

I wondered: OoS is not illustrated, right?
Photos were not yet printed at that time of course... it would have been interesting to se Darwin's records and specimens.

Thank you Marjorie. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
August 10, 2006 - 04:18 am
"The construction of the flower in another closely allied orchid, namely the Catasetum, is widely different, though serving the same end -- and is equally curious.

"Bees visit these flowers, like those of the Coryanthes, in order to gnaw the labellum.

"In doing this they inevitably touch a long, tapering, sensitive projection, or, as I have called it, the antenna. This antenna, when touched, transmits a sensation or vibration to a certain membrane which is instantly ruptured. This sets free a spring by which the pollen-mass is shot forth -- like an arrow, in the right direction -- and adheres by its viscid extremity to the back of the bee.

"The pollen-mass of the male plant (for the sexes are separate in this orchid) is thus carried to the flower of the female plant where it is brought into contact with the stigma -- which is viscid enough to break certain elastic threads -- and retaining the pollen, fertilisation is effected."

Anyone here acquainted with Rube Goldberg?

Robby

Bubble
August 10, 2006 - 08:05 am
The cartoonist inventor? the flower pollinisation mechanism is as elaborate as one of those inventions!

robert b. iadeluca
August 10, 2006 - 03:41 pm
Read HERE about Rube Goldberg and his machines. I am wondering. Does Nature have a sense of humor?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 11, 2006 - 03:36 am
"How, it may be asked, in the foregoing and in innumerable other instances, can we understand the graduated scale of complexity and the multifarious means for gaining the same end.

"The answer no doubt is, as already remarked -- that when two forms vary, which already differ from each other in some slight degree -- the variability will not be of the same exact nature. Consequently the results obtained through natural selection for the same general purpose will not be the same.

"We should also bear in mind that every highly developed organism has passed through many changes. Each modified structure tends to be inherited. Each modification will not readily be quite lost, but may be again and again further altered.

"Hence the structure of each part of each species -- for whatever purpose it may serve -- is the sum of many inherited changes, through which the species has passed during its successive adaptations to changed habits and conditions of life."

If I am understanding Darwin correctly, he is telling us that change can occur in any direction. Nature is trying out thousands (millions?) of ways. Any result can occur.

And not only that but that each change is passed down to the "child." And that each of these changes can occur in all sorts of directions.

I guess a "Rube Goldberg" type of result, when you think of it, is not that improbable.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 12, 2006 - 04:23 am
"Finally then, although in many cases it is most difficult even to conjecture by what transitions organs have arrived at their present state -- yet, considering how small the proportion of living and known forms is to the extinct and unknown -- I have been astonished how rarely an organ can be named, towards which no transitional grade is known to lead.

"It certainly is true -- that new organs appearing as if created for some special purpose, rarely or never appear in any being -- as indeed is shown by that old, but somewhat exaggerated, canon in natural history of "Natura non facit saltum."

"We meet with this admission in the writings of almost every experienced naturalist -- or as Milne Edwards has well expressed it -- Nature is prodigal in variety, but niggard in innovation.

"Why, on the theory of Creation, should there be so much variety and so little real novelty?

"Why should all the parts and organs of many independent beings, each supposed to have been separately created for its proper place in nature, be so commonly linked together by graduated steps?

"Why should not Nature take a sudden leap from structure to structure?

"On the theory of natural selection, we can clearly understand why she should not. Natural selection acts only by taking advantage of slight successive variations. She can never take a great and sudden leap, but must advance by short and sure, though slow steps."

Now Darwin is dragging out his big guns. He quotes a phrase used regularly in Natural History -- "Natura non facit saltum" (Nature does not make leaps). He is challenging people to show the illogical thinking behind the development of his theory.

We have come to the end of the section in this chapter entitled "Special Difficulties of the Theory of Natural Selection." Speak up, participants and lurkers.

Robby

Mallylee
August 12, 2006 - 04:42 am
Most genetic mutations are not conducive to the survival of genes. In nature, these mutations die out before the organism can reproduce them.

What about human eugenics? We should look at facts, and not be afraid of any moral issues

Bubble
August 12, 2006 - 05:28 am
It is hard to put oneself to that time when natural selection was challenged and not obvious. There is also so much we do not know yet and have to learn.

Scrawler
August 12, 2006 - 10:43 am
But what happens when the facts cause moral issues? This is a more difficult question than it sounds. Some would put moral issues before the facts that were clearly in front of them, while others would accept the facts and dismiss the moral issues. Aren't they both correct to some degree?

Bubble
August 12, 2006 - 10:45 am
Example, please! This is too vague...

Mallylee
August 12, 2006 - 02:58 pm
Scrawler and Bubble, I understand that a sort of eugenics is usual. For instance I saw a prog on Telvision this evening about the frequent incidence of microcephaly in (I think it was Pakistan).It may have Punjab.

It's caused by a genetic defect in one specific gene, There is a move afoot to counsel people in that country to have tests done before they have children. I mean, the moral question could be 'Is it not everybody's natural right to have a child?'

There may be borderline cases when the morality is not so clear; for instance when the genetic defect is comparatively mild.I dont know enough about genetic defects to give examples, but I bet there are some.

http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~rauch/nvp/consistent/hentoff_eugenics.html

This is the Television prog that I saw

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/core/Content/displayPrintable.jhtml?xml=/connected/2006/08/01/echuman01.xml&site=17&page=0

robert b. iadeluca
August 12, 2006 - 03:16 pm
Organs of little apparent Importance, as affected by Natural Selection

robert b. iadeluca
August 12, 2006 - 03:23 pm
"As natural selection acts by life and death -- by the survival of the fittest, and by the destruction of the less well-fitted individuals -- I have sometimes felt great difficulty in understanding the origin or formation of parts of little importance -- almost as great, though of a very different kind, as in the case of the most perfect and complex organs.

"In the first place, we are much too ignorant in regard to the whole economy of any one organic being, to say what slight modifications would be of importance or not.

"In a former chapter I have given instances of very trifling characters -- such as the down on fruit and the colour of its flesh, the colour of the skin and hair of quadrupeds -- which, from being correlated with constitutional differences or from determining the attacks of insects, might assuredly be acted on by natural selection.

"The tail of the giraffe looks like an artificially constructed fly-flapper. It seems at first incredible that this could have been adapted for its present purpose by successive slight modifications, each better and better fitted, for so trifling an object as to drive away flies.

"Yet we should pause before being too positive even in this case. We know that the distribution and existence of cattle and other animals in South America absolutely depend on their power of resisting the attacks of insects. Individuals which could by any means defend themselves from these small enemies, would be able to range into new pastures and thus gain a great advantage.

"It is not that the larger quadrupeds are actually destroyed (except in some rare cases) by flies. They are incessantly harassed and their strength reduced, so that they are more subject to disease, or not so well enabled in a coming dearth to search for food, or to escape from beasts of prey."

Apparently what appears insignificant on the surface may be anything but.

I wonder what "insignificant" organs or parts thereof can be found on a human being.

Robby

Bubble
August 13, 2006 - 01:10 am
Those parts of organs that you can eliminate without affecting the general well being of the individual I would say.

Would one miss one little finger less? Do we get more infections without tonsils, appendix? what about body hair? ear lobes? finger nails?

robert b. iadeluca
August 13, 2006 - 04:17 am
An interesting list, Bubble. I guess we don't "need" any of them. So the question arises -- why were they naturally "selected?"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 13, 2006 - 04:40 am
"Organs now of trifling importance have probably in some cases been of high importance to an early progenitor, and -- after having been slowly perfected at a former period -- have been transmitted to existing species in nearly the same state, although now of very slight use. But any actually injurious deviations in their structure would of course have been checked by natural selection.

"Seeing how important an organ of locomotion the tail is in most aquatic animals, its general presence and use for many purposes in so many land animals -- which in their lungs or modified swimbladders betray their aquatic origin -- may perhaps be thus accounted for.

"A well-developed tail having been formed in an aquatic animal, it might subsequently come to be worked in for all sorts of purposes -- as a fly-flapper -- an organ of prehension -- or as an aid in turning, as in the case of the dog -- though the aid in this latter respect must be slight, for the hare, with hardly any tail, can double still more quickly."

So I assume, as modifications occur down the millennia, that almost any organ can end up doing almost anything.

Police use heavy flashlights as weapons and a book can become a door stop.

Robby

Bubble
August 13, 2006 - 05:25 am
Body hair must have ben very important at one time, as protection against bad weather and especially for the young one to grip when the mother would be on the move, as we can see in primates.

We do have a vestigial tail apparently.

robert b. iadeluca
August 13, 2006 - 08:47 am
Which, I may add, that some human females as they are walking along the street, use to great advantage.

Robby

Bubble
August 13, 2006 - 10:39 am
ha ha ha ha ha you do have an imagination....

Scrawler
August 13, 2006 - 10:39 am
I wish I had a little fly-flapper myself the way the mosquitos and other insects have thought of my body as a "happy meal" this summer.

robert b. iadeluca
August 13, 2006 - 04:16 pm
"In the second place, we may easily err in attributing importance to characters -- and in believing that they have been developed through natural selection.

"We must by no means overlook the effects of the definite action of changed conditions of life -- of so-called spontaneous variations, which seem to depend in a quite subordinate degree on the nature of the conditions -- of the tendency to reversion to long-lost characters -- of the complex laws of growth, such as of correlation, compensation -- of the pressure of one part on another, &c. -- and finally of sexual selection, by which characters of use to one sex are often gained and then transmitted more or less perfectly to the other sex -- though of no use to this sex.

"But structures thus indirectly gained, although at first of no advantage to a species, may subsequently have been taken advantage of by its modified descendants, under new conditions of life and newly acquired habits."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Bubble
August 13, 2006 - 10:29 pm
"But structures thus indirectly gained, although at first of no advantage to a species, may subsequently have been taken advantage of by its modified descendants, under new conditions of life and newly acquired habits." <?I>

Oh, for the day when men will be modified to suckle babies... lol

robert b. iadeluca
August 14, 2006 - 04:05 am
"If green woodpeckers alone had existed, and we did not know that there were many black and pied kinds, I dare say that we should have thought that the green colour was a beautiful adaptation to conceal this tree-frequenting bird from its enemies.

"Consequently that it was a character of importance, and had been acquired through natural selection. As it is, the colour is probably in chief part due to sexual selection.

"A trailing palm in the Malay Archipelago climbs the loftiest trees by the aid of exquisitely constructed hooks clustered around the ends of the branches, and this contrivance, no doubt, is of the highest service to the plant.

"But as we see nearly similar hooks on many trees which are not climbers -- and which, as there is reason to believe from the distribution of the thorn-bearing species in Africa and South America -- serve as a defence against browsing quadrupeds -- so the spikes on the palm may at first have been developed for this object, and subsequently have been improved and taken advantage of by the plant -- as it underwent further modification and became a climber.

"The naked skin on the head of a vulture is generally considered as a direct adaptation for wallowing in putridity -- and so it may be -- or it may possibly be due to the direct action of putrid matter.

"We should be very cautious in drawing any such inference, when we see that the skin on the head of the clean-feeding male turkey is likewise naked.

"The sutures in the skull of young mammals have been advanced as a beautiful adaptation for aiding parturition -- and no doubt they facilitate -- or may be indispensable for this act. But as sutures occur in the skulls of young birds and reptiles, which have only to escape from a broken egg, we may infer that this structure has arisen from the laws of growth -- and has been taken advantage of in the parturition of the higher animals."

Darwin warns us not to automatically assume anything.

Robby

bunch of bananas
August 14, 2006 - 06:53 pm
I will make my first post by saying that I hardly understand a thing in the above paragraph.

robert b. iadeluca
August 15, 2006 - 02:58 am
Welcome, Bananas! We are all struggling to understand Darwin as we go along. Some of his comments are easy and some are not. Please continue to post and share your thoughts.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 15, 2006 - 03:20 am
"We are profoundly ignorant of the cause of each slight variation or individual difference. We are immediately made conscious of this by reflecting on the differences between the breeds of our domesticated animals in different countries -- more especially in the less civilised countries where there has been but little methodical selection.

"Animals kept by savages in different countries often have to struggle for their own subsistence, and are exposed to a certain extent to natural selection, and individuals with slightly different constitutions would succeed best under different climates.

"With cattle susceptibility to the attacks of flies is correlated with colour, as is the liability to be poisoned by certain plants. Even colour would be thus subjected to the action of natural selection.

"Some observers are convinced that a damp climate affects the growth of the hair, and that with the hair the horns are correlated.

"Mountain breeds always differ from lowland breeds. A mountainous country would probably affect the hind limbs from exercising them more, and possibly even the form of the pelvis. By the law of homologous variation, the front limbs and the head would probably be affected.

"The shape, also, of the pelvis might affect by pressure the shape of certain parts of the young in the womb. The laborious breathing necessary in high regions tends -- as we have good reason to believe -- to increase the size of the chest. Again correlation would come into play.

"The effects of lessened exercise together with abundant food on the whole organisation is probably still more important. This -- as H. von Nathusius has lately shown in his excellent treatise -- is apparently one chief cause of the great modification which the breeds of swine have undergone.

"But we are far too ignorant to speculate on the relative importance of the several known and unknown causes of variation. I have made these remarks only to show that, if we are unable to account for the characteristic differences of our several domestic breeds -- which nevertheless are generally admitted to have arisen through ordinary generation from one or a few parent-stocks -- we ought not to lay too much stress on our ignorance of the precise cause of the slight analogous differences between true species."

Darwin speaks of "the effects of lessened exercise together with abundant food." Scientists are becoming concerned about the resultant obesity from the lessened exercise and abundant food in developed nations. If this continues for centuries, I wonder what effect it will have on the organization of homo sapiens.

Robby

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 06:45 am
Robbie - This is Artie here. I have been emailing you.

I think you should pause for a moment.

Here is my problem in understanding these passages:

Post 801 reads: "In the first place"

Post 809 reads: "In the second place"

Posts 811 and 814 are founded upon these two previous post?

We must understand the context.

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 08:27 am
Ok. I think I am beginning to get it.

The title of this section is:

"Organs of little apparent Importance, as affected by Natural Selection"

Here is the opening statement:

"As natural selection acts by life and death -- by the survival of the fittest, and by the destruction of the less well-fitted individuals -- I have sometimes felt great difficulty in understanding the origin or formation of parts of little importance -- almost as great, though of a very different kind, as in the case of the most perfect and complex organs."

Now he explains:

"In the first place, we are much too ignorant"

"In the second place, we may easily err"

He concludes this section with further warning:

"We are profoundly ignorant"

and: "But we are far too ignorant"

What are we ignorant of?

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 10:37 am
"Organs of little apparent Importance" means to me, organs that seem to be of little importance.

He attributes what seems to us to be of little importance to our ignorance.

"In the first place, we are much too ignorant in regard to the whole economy of any one organic being, to say what slight modifications would be of importance or not."

"In the second place, we may easily err in attributing importance to characters, and in believing that they have been developed through natural selection."

"We are profoundly ignorant of the cause of each slight variation or individual difference"

"But we are far too ignorant to speculate on the relative importance of the several known and unknown causes of variation"

How many hundreds of millions of years and how many millions of variables have influenced the development?

And how can we comprehend that but by acknowledging our ignorance?

robert b. iadeluca
August 15, 2006 - 10:45 am
Artie:-

What we are doing here is reading Darwin's book, paragraph by paragraph. Each posting is one paragraph of Darwin's book. The words are his, not mine. My words are in red.

Ignore the fact that my postings are sometimes four or five paragraphs. In his book they were one paragraph. I divide it up for easy reading.

Robby

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 10:46 am
Please let's not move on until we understand this section.

Let's reread the section over a few times and then see if we can get it.

I am catching a contradiction when we get to the ultimate clause of the final paragraph of this section:

"we ought not to lay too much stress on our ignorance of the precise cause of the slight analogous differences between true species."

After repeatedly reminding us of our ignorance, he now tells us to ignore our ignorance!?

This is a section in the chapter titled "Difficulties of the Theory"

Put into context this section is telling us not to let all of that ignorance become a difficulty of the theory.

Artie

robert b. iadeluca
August 15, 2006 - 11:03 am
Artie:-I realize your desire not to move on until we understand each paragraph thoroughly. However we do not have the luxury of time here that a college class has where there is homework and all that it involves. Furthermore, we do not look at ourselves as a class. We are a group of people who are gathered around in this "living room" trying in our meager way to understand what Darwin is saying without worrying about whether we receive three credits or not.

I speak of lack of luxury of time. We began January 1st of this year and yet, despite our informal way of going at it, have only completed 5 1/2 chapters out of 15.

Many participants here are also participants in the discussion group "The Story of Civilization." There we are nearing the end of only the fourth (out of eleven) volumes and are nearing the end of five years of discussion. This gives you an idea of the passage of time.

I will continue to post one of Darwin's paragraphs each day (occasionlly two) and we will all try to understand how species originated as best we can. Speaking for myself, I think I understand the theory much better than I did when we started 7 1/2 months ago.

Comments here by other participants are always welcome.

Robby

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 11:09 am
Robby - I have read all of Part 1 of this discussion and think that I understand your approach.

We are going through the text paragraph by paragraph and our objective is to understand what we are reading. Our objective is to understand what Darwin is trying to teach us.

(I also think that I understand what constitutes one of his paragraphs and how you are splitting up the paragraphs.)

Now, I think that the paragraphs here are examples or illustrative of what he is trying to illustrate: "Difficulties of the Theory".

If we focus on the paragraph concerning the green woodpeckers or any other illustrative paragraphs we may lose sight of what Darwin is trying to illustrate by the paragraph.

I am not asking that we understand each paragraph thoroughly. I am asking that we understand the section and the chapter.

And my posts seem to me to be in concordance with our common objective of making sure that we understand exactly what Darwin is saying.

Artie

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 11:28 am
"Welcome, Bananas! We are all struggling to understand Darwin as we go along. Some of his comments are easy and some are not. Please continue to post and share your thoughts." - Robby

Thank you for that invitation.

These are my posts and these are my thoughts.

Artie

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 01:44 pm
I was greatly inspired to join this discussion in my reading of the first part.

I was so much wanting to hear and talk with Kleo.

And the dynamic of having Kleo here to check Robby when he misread or misinterpreted a passage.

But now today I have started reading Part 2 and am greatly disappointed to see that Kleo left after Post 58!

I think that Kleo leaving was a great loss.

This was a perfect example of dialogue.

Dialogue is an attempt at synthesis.

Robby approached it with the correct objective:

TO UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT WAS WRITTEN.

Kleo was a great force for insuring that we understood.

Robby gave his interpretations of passages and Kleo corrected him.

Robby: You introduced confusion when you linked to two different texts. Then you blamed Kleo for choosing a text that you yourself linked to! You still haven't corrected your link. You still have two links to two differing texts.

You asked us to not link to irrelevantnt items. Yet you did so yourself.

I emailed you rather than entering in the middle and possibly disrupting the discussion.

You told me that you had no time to answer emails and that I should post.

I posted according to the objectives. We were to stick to the paragraph and understand what was said. Not introduce our own thoughts.

So I posted a comment that I didn't understand the paragraph. The paragraph about green woodpeckers.

Then I realized that Darwin is not talking about green woodpeckers. The paragraph is illustrative of what he is trying to teach.

It must be understood in context.

This is my first posting and it is at your invitation.

I asked you to pause because you were just posting quotes from O of S and no one was commenting. And I needed to understand. I was not challenging your own understanding of the text. I was questioning my own.

This discussion began with a hopeful spark and it was mainly due to the dynamic element that you yourself recognized Kleo would bring to the discussion.

I feel somewhat cheated by her absence.

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 01:47 pm
I am happy that there is a spell checker for correcting my spelling.

What we need back in this discussion is KleoCheck.

Mallylee
August 15, 2006 - 01:52 pm
"we ought not to lay too much stress on our ignorance of the precise cause of the slight analogous differences between true species."

Not so much telling us to ignore our ignorance , as telling us to recognise our ignorance of precise causes without allowing our ignorance to stop us in our tracks?

robert b. iadeluca
August 15, 2006 - 02:03 pm
The general ground rules in Senior Net are to address issues, not personalities.

Let us move on to the words of Darwin.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 15, 2006 - 02:05 pm
Utilitarian Doctrine, how far true: Beauty, how acquired

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 02:06 pm
I guess.

I think of trying to figure out why we have an insignificant little finger.

But he says that we can not comprehend all of the innumerable influential factors. That the little finger must have been important for some reason at some time.

What I meant to point out about this section is the apparent contradiction when he reminds us repeatedly of our ignorance and then the very last clause of the last line of the section says that "we ought not to lay too much stress on our ignorance.

This could be but should not be a difficulty to the theory.

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 02:12 pm
Robby: I think that you are avoiding the issues.

robert b. iadeluca
August 15, 2006 - 02:15 pm
"The foregoing remarks lead me to say a few words on the protest lately made by some naturalists, against the utilitarian doctrine that every detail of structure has been produced for the good of its possessor.

"They believe that many structures have been created for the sake of beauty, to delight man or the Creator -- but this latter point is beyond the scope of scientific discussion -- or for the sake of mere variety, a view already discussed.

"Such doctrines, if true, would be absolutely fatal to my theory. I fully admit that many structures are now of no direct use to their possessors -- and may never have been of any use to their progenitors.

"But this does not prove that they were formed solely for beauty or variety. No doubt the definite action of changed conditions -- and the various causes of modifications, lately specified -- have all produced an effect -- probably a great effect -- independently of any advantage thus gained.

"But a still more important consideration is that the chief part of the organisation of every living creature is due to inheritance. Consequently, though each being assuredly is well fitted for its place in nature, many structures have now no very close and direct relation to present habits of life.

"Thus, we can hardly believe that the webbed feet of the upland goose or of the frigate-bird are of special use to these birds. We cannot believe that the similar bones in the arm of the monkey -- in the fore-leg of the horse -- in the wing of the bat -- and in the flipper of the seal -- are of special use to these animals.

"We may safely attribute these structures to inheritance. But webbed feet no doubt were as useful to the progenitor of the upland goose and of the frigate-bird, as they now are to the most aquatic of living birds. So we may believe that the progenitor of the seal did not possess a flipper, but a foot with five toes fitted for walking or grasping. We may further venture to believe that the several bones in the limbs of the monkey, horse, and bat, were originally developed -- on the principle of utility -- probably through the reduction of more numerous bones in the fin of some ancient fish-like progenitor of the whole class.

"It is scarcely possible to decide how much allowance ought to be made for such causes of change -- as the definite action of external conditions, so-called spontaneous variations -- and the complex laws of growth.

"With these important exceptions, we may conclude that the structure of every living creature either now is, or was formerly, of some direct or indirect use to its possessor."

Any reactions to Darwin's conclusion that the structure of every living creature formerly had some use?

Robby

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 02:18 pm
I don't think that you really want to know so why are you pretending to ask?

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 02:23 pm
I think that the objective of this discussion can not be met without an objective evaluation of the leader and the participants.

It is my opinion that the participant, Kleo, did what was needed to meet the objectives.

And that the discussion leader has not done as well as he could have.

Robby, you can do better than this.

I think that an evaluation of each discussion would be in order.

Every discussion should have an objective.

You did well in setting an objective.

It makes no sense to have an objective and no evaluation of whether our performance meets that objective.

I include the leader in my use of the word "our".

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 02:26 pm
Posting the paragraph and asking for a response to the paragraph and being meet with silence and then having to go scrounging around yelling "any lurkers out there?" hardly meets the objectives of our discussion.

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 02:33 pm
I think that you should turn the discussion over to Kleo.

I came here to discuss this topic with both of you.

And Bubble too.

And everybody else.

Part 1 was fantastic.

It really was incredibly dynamic.

What happened?

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 02:42 pm
Looks like I am just talking to myself.

Why don't you just quote the rest of the book and get it over with?

Mallylee
August 15, 2006 - 03:37 pm
I am in some doubt that every anatomical structure that exists either is , or has been some use . I would have thought that natural selection works positively .

If the ABSENCE of some structure were to be advantageous, that structure would be phased out. However, if the structure were neither useful nor a nuisance, there would be no mechanism for either retaining it nor for phasing it out.

robert b. iadeluca
August 15, 2006 - 03:40 pm
That is what Darwin told us earlier, Mallylee. Any ideas about structures that were previously of benefit, but do not seem to be so now?

Robby

Mallylee
August 15, 2006 - 03:43 pm
I make my own objectives in any course of learning that I engage in.Unless there is an exam syllabus, naturally. Here there is no exam syllabus.

I cannot make rules for any other participant, much less the discussion leader who has my support at all times, for without the initiative of the discussion leader , no discussion.

If the discussion disappoints me, unfortunately, a common experience, I will have to decide for myself whether or not to do something else.

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 03:49 pm
It is the participants that make the discussion.

We can get leadership from the participants.

So we will never be short of leaders.

But if we are short of participants then we no longer need a leader.

Mallylee
August 15, 2006 - 03:49 pm
Robby #837

Yes. The blood condition that causes sickle cell anaemia is the same blood condition that causes resistance to a tropical disease. I am not sure of this so I will have to look it up.

The upshot is, however, that in the UK where the tropical disease is not endemic, there is no need for the blood condition, and there is need to eliminate it.I refer not to humanitarian motives, but to the need of the selfish gene that causes the blood condition, and which uses the organism as its carrier.

The evolution of sickle-cell anaemia is probably an example of Baldwinian evolution, whereby humans modify their environment and thus change the selective pressures. As humans in tropical areas in Africa and elsewhere developed agriculture and animal husbandry, they expanded the niche for Anopheles mosquitoes that could transmit the malaria parasite.

(Wikipedia)

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 03:51 pm
This discussion was 1000% better with all of the original participants.

If the discussion leader can not retain the participants interest then that leader is not needed.

Anyway, the best approach to any discussion or activity is to not only have clearly defined objectives but also evaluation of the progress or lack of progress toward the objective.

And that evaluation should be aimed at ALL of the participants including the leader.

No leadership of any community should be unaccountable.

Artie

Mallylee
August 15, 2006 - 03:54 pm
Bananas I always suspect any argument that uses the passive voice. I mean, speak for yourself, or known others

robert b. iadeluca
August 15, 2006 - 03:56 pm
"I cannot make rules for any other participant, much less the discussion leader who has my support at all times, for without the initiative of the discussion leader , no discussion."

Thank you, Mallylee.

Robby

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 04:01 pm
And I can not trust anyone who supports the discussion leader at all times.

The inference is that the leader is infallible and that there is no need to check the leadership.

In other words, you are non-democratic.

A remarkable trait for a literary community.

Do you have a manifesto in departing from an ages old tradition that English Speaking People profess?

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 04:04 pm
The discussion leader made excellent objectives.

The participants demonstrated great willingness and superb abilities at meeting those objective.

It is the responsibility of the discussion leader to maintain and improve upon that.

This discussion has lost it's original energy due to the loss of a main catalyst to our thinking.

After Kleo departed this discussion fizzled!

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 04:06 pm
Robby: You still have not deleted the British Library link that caused confusion in the beginning.

So anyone who is not aware could begin in the next post with the wrong reference.

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 04:11 pm
If your attitude is that you are the leader and you make the rules and the participants must accomadate you, and if you are surrounded by people who always support you rather than those who challenge you to meet your responsibilities, then what outcome can be expected?

I suppose that your next step will be to complain to the administrators, check my IP number and charge me with the high crime of "Trolling".

In other words, to use your powers to further bolster your position in the community.

And I am supposed to finance this farce?

Éloïse De Pelteau
August 15, 2006 - 04:16 pm
In case everybody doesn't know it, Robby has been the Discussion Leader of Story of Civilization for the past 5 years. That discussion has generated 30,000 posts so far and is still going strong.

To me that is the undisputed proof that he knows his job very well. I follow Origin of the Species but I do not post often for lack of time, but I wouldn't want Robby to change anything, I learn a lot from it.

Éloïse

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 04:21 pm
Anyway, Robby was wrong on several points and needed to be guided just as he tried to guide us and keep us on track.

And I think a system of evaluations made by assigned members would help to keep EVERYONE on track. Participants and Leaders.

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 04:27 pm
Eloise: Oh no. The "been around here since Day One and what does this jamoke know" people.

Here they come.

All of them DEAD WRONG!

So how can you grow?

If you don't want to change?

And where is your manifesto?

You have a better system than Democracy?

Your system says that Robby has always been right and will always be right.

Therefore, since I oppose you and him, I must be wrong?

I suppose this "community" doesn't even elect a President, Secretary and Treasurer?

So where is your manifesto?

If you have some better idea that has worked for years and will always work?

Have you freed us from the tyranny of our traditional democratic forms to serve the new machine?

Where is your manifesto?

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 04:33 pm
Robby and all of your Seniornet buddies:

You exhibit poor attention to detail.

How can a literary and educational society totally disregard a tradition that WE STUDY IN THESE DISCUSSIONS!

What is the History of Civilization?

The result is a democratic people.

To try to "rule" over us as if you have some power over us is poor judgement.

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 04:41 pm
Now I suppose that we are going to get a post from the "people who own the site" people.

You betray the Public Trust is all you do.

No one has a right to own a community except the community.

It is both unethical and illegal (or should be illegal) to own a community as your private property.

I know that it is prevalent all over the web.

I also know that it is wrong.

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 04:43 pm
So why should I donate to something that I ultimately have no control over?

What are you asking from the public?

We should pay you for the privelidge of being lorded over like Serfs?

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 04:47 pm
The cat is out of the bag all over the web.

You people who "own" the communities are not needed.

All of these privately owned "communities" are just going to become so many Internet ghettoes.

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 04:54 pm
I think that you are all some very intelligent people but get with the future.

The future is that 5 or 10 people can get together $300 bucks or so and put something up just like this only using a democratic form.

President, Secretary and Treasurer.

Then who is going to get the activity and the donations?

And this is going to happen to ALL of the privately owned communities.

They will simply be duplicated only with democratic form.

And that will leave you mudsuckers out in the cold yelling "Hey, Any lurkers out there?"

Think about it logically.

Who wants to contribute to something that they have no stake in?

You won't get a dime out of me until you come clean.

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 04:59 pm
You insulted Kleo.

She challenged your intellect.

She challenged your High and Mightiness.

You and ALL of your "owners" deserve not even the slightest bit of respect.

That's why you have to demand it.

Well, go ahead, try to pry it out of me.

You have to "own" it.

And you have the gall to ask me to pay for it?

Malryn
August 15, 2006 - 05:10 pm

I know very well the best thing to do with pests like you, B of B, is put you on IGNORE, but you aren't going to come in and mess up a discussion and insult a well-respected discussion leader without some reaction from the likes of me. Since you're not making any points for yourself here about "ousting the mods", why don't you crawl back in the woodwork you came out of?

Or go play in the street?

Mal

SrGhost
August 15, 2006 - 05:23 pm
And what might your qualifications be?

Make it fast as school is back in session soon.

GingerWright
August 15, 2006 - 05:44 pm
Mal Good for you girl.

GingerWright
August 15, 2006 - 05:45 pm
SrGhost Good for you to.

KleoP
August 15, 2006 - 07:25 pm
But, the problem with sounding all high and mighty about Robbie being insulted (which is inappropriate, Robbie being insulted that is) is that no one was all high and mighty when I was insulted by a lurker. Instead Robbie just dismissed me completely as a "graduate student," which, by the way, I'm not.

It just kind of proves the point being made by Artie and made by Cathie/Scootz before she stormed out, and made by others through the times: SeniorNet is NOT a democratic organization and the boards are not, generally, made up by the participants, but rather strongly directed by the few chosen to be discussion leaders. No input from the peanut gallery, please, that might interfere with the rule of the few. This gets frustrating, being treated like this, but I've learned to go with the flow. And I am not the only one who has voiced this complaint, it comes up all of the time and is ignored by the powers that be at SeniorNet. People in power like to keep their power limited to the few who already own a share--democracy, by its nature, means less for everyone.

Artie is probably not going to be happy here at SeniorNet, but he does have a point: the board promised one thing, started to deliver, then diverged somewhere else. I have not been following, but I did read today's and yesterday's posts, and glanced through the board. It was a high level exchange for a long time, not just me and Robbie, but people feeding off of that. Bamm! Out comes a lurker and throws an insult my way. Nobody is indignant, because, after all, I'm not a discussion leader, and I can be insulted. Nobody was all high and mighty, least of all the discussion leader, who just added an insult of his own.

Sometimes you get what you deliver.

Artie, I won't be coming back in here to discuss this book. The board has made it clear that they prefer the discussion, whatsoever it is, without me. There are other places on SeniorNet having great discussions. In spite of its lack of democracy, it is a community offering quite a bit. I urge you to check out the rest of the community and see if there is something to your fancy, or start a community of your own somewhere else on the Internet.

And, again, in spite of my being the subject of discussions in here and Robbie letting it slide AND tossing one himself, discussions need to be civil and stay on topic. The topic is not me. It wasn't when I was insulted by the lurker, or by Robbie. It isn't now.

Kleo

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 07:43 pm
What is your manifesto?

You will never have anything but a selfish unexpainable "reason" for departing from our well-established SOCIAL tradition.

Who ever heard of a community organization that was not democratically administered?

Until the Internet I could find few political or social communities practicing what is being hoisted upon us now.

You are just bold-facedly bullshitting the public.

I am not buying it.

JayCees are democratic.

Toastmaster is democratic.

Rotary is democratic.

All University student clubs are democratic.

Fraternities and sororities are democratic.

University Boards are democratic.

The rest of you could pitch in and we would have an almost endless list.

Now, I ask you (and you won't respond to such stoopidity as my own) what are your credentials and what do you hope to achieve by departing from our traditions?

You are corrupting the common good.

And where's that manifesto?

I want to see what you have in mind.

Probably has alot to do with maintaining thing just the way they are.

You are using an outdated board because your leadership is outdated.

You don't bring up new blood so you suffer from the same malady as every other "community" on the Internet: Tired Poor Blood.

You probably all read Great Books.

Why don't you apply what our tradition teaches?

bunch of bananas
August 15, 2006 - 07:48 pm
Kleo: I think you should stay.

The board has not made it clear since I am posting in this discussion and I say you made it sparkle for the time you were here.

I felt absolutely cheated when I got to page 2.

As a matter of fact, you are the one who made it clear.

I felt that both you and Robbie were doing great.

Marcie Schwarz
August 15, 2006 - 10:34 pm
Hello all, it's not fair for a participant to dominate a discussion asking for a meta discussion of the structure. If this discussion is not what you want it to be, it's not productive to continue to berate the volunteer leader and other participants.

The discussion seems to meet the interests of those who are participating, and repeated posts about the structure are not productive to change. Suggestions are welcome but not post-after-post on the change that an individual may prefer in the structure or direction of the discussion, including negative comments about participants.

I hope that everyone will get back to the topic of the book. thanks.

Mallylee
August 16, 2006 - 01:36 am
The inference is that the leader is infallible and that there is no need to check the leadership. The opinions of the discussion leader, qua discussion leader, and the opinions of Robby AS a participant in the discussion are not opinions in the same category.

The former are the rules are of the game, the latter are the individual moves in the game.

Mallylee
August 16, 2006 - 01:45 am
All these, Bananas, may be democratic in intent, but even the Quakers have leaders , under the rose , of course. All one can do is watch and try to keep things as democratic as possible, in international affairs, in liberal organisations. Democracy is never perfect, unless you are a Platonist.

Mallylee
August 16, 2006 - 02:02 am
I am a discussion leader in real life,by common assent, and I could not do it unless I could make some decisions on behalf of the other participants.

I revise the procedures from time to time by asking if the participants want to make any changes, or if they want to follow some suggestion of mine. This has worked happily for four years.

The academic level of the discussions is controlled by each participant, as it has to be, there being no public needs being met by the discussions.

My role is provider of material, chairman and participant.

I dont understand how the people who manage Seniornet could hi-jack it for their own needs, There are always lurkers, one assumes, and both regulars and lurkers can leave, and set up their own site at any time. Or is there some bar to doing this?

I am sure that Bananas makes a worthy statement. I am trying to understand, since its a new idea to me.

robert b. iadeluca
August 16, 2006 - 03:46 am
As Marcie, the Director of Online Services, has suggested, let us get back to the topic of the book. I am reposting Post 830 --

"The foregoing remarks lead me to say a few words on the protest lately made by some naturalists, against the utilitarian doctrine that every detail of structure has been produced for the good of its possessor.

"They believe that many structures have been created for the sake of beauty, to delight man or the Creator -- but this latter point is beyond the scope of scientific discussion -- or for the sake of mere variety, a view already discussed.

"Such doctrines, if true, would be absolutely fatal to my theory. I fully admit that many structures are now of no direct use to their possessors -- and may never have been of any use to their progenitors.

"But this does not prove that they were formed solely for beauty or variety. No doubt the definite action of changed conditions -- and the various causes of modifications, lately specified -- have all produced an effect -- probably a great effect -- independently of any advantage thus gained.

"But a still more important consideration is that the chief part of the organisation of every living creature is due to inheritance. Consequently, though each being assuredly is well fitted for its place in nature, many structures have now no very close and direct relation to present habits of life.

"Thus, we can hardly believe that the webbed feet of the upland goose or of the frigate-bird are of special use to these birds. We cannot believe that the similar bones in the arm of the monkey -- in the fore-leg of the horse -- in the wing of the bat -- and in the flipper of the seal -- are of special use to these animals.

"We may safely attribute these structures to inheritance. But webbed feet no doubt were as useful to the progenitor of the upland goose and of the frigate-bird, as they now are to the most aquatic of living birds. So we may believe that the progenitor of the seal did not possess a flipper, but a foot with five toes fitted for walking or grasping. We may further venture to believe that the several bones in the limbs of the monkey, horse, and bat, were originally developed -- on the principle of utility -- probably through the reduction of more numerous bones in the fin of some ancient fish-like progenitor of the whole class.

"It is scarcely possible to decide how much allowance ought to be made for such causes of change -- as the definite action of external conditions, so-called spontaneous variations -- and the complex laws of growth.

"With these important exceptions, we may conclude that the structure of every living creature either now is, or was formerly, of some direct or indirect use to its possessor."

Any reactions to Darwin's conclusion that the structure of every living creature formerly had some use?

Robby

Malryn
August 16, 2006 - 04:43 am

Sorry, ROBBY.

If you people had done a search of SrGhost you'd have found as I did that this person has made a practice of going into discussions all over SeniorNet -- even Household Maintenance -- for the past few years with his or her only apparent purpose being to disrupt that discussion. If that's democratic, then I'm not a democrat. This person's email address was oustthemods@yahoo.com until I quoted that phrase in Post #857, and this participant removed it. I've been in SeniorNet a long time, and have encountered people like this many times before. Their only purpose seems to be to call attention to themselves. This person is more clever than some and elicits some thoughtful replies. However, when the structure of an organization is criticized and threatened, the organization itself is weakened.

I wonder if that happened in Darwin's research of Natural Selection? If it did, I'm sure he'll tell us about it.

Mal

Mallylee
August 16, 2006 - 06:10 am
Malryn, I dont like talking about a person as if they were not there, and I will not do it

Mallylee
August 16, 2006 - 06:25 am
Any reactions to Darwin's conclusion that the structure of every living creature formerly had some use?

I believe I already replied to this something like as follows :-

Natural selection depends on random mutations that benefit the organism for the benefit of the gene (s). If the mutation is neither beneficial nor an impediment, it will be inert, in which case natural selection will not breed it out.

Theoretically there may be a structure that is inert, always has been inert, and will simply lie there in the genome until it becomes either an impediment or a benefit.

Scrawler
August 16, 2006 - 03:53 pm
Does natural selection apply to human beings as well?

robert b. iadeluca
August 16, 2006 - 04:34 pm
Scrawler:-My belief is that it does apply to human beings.

However, we agreed at the start that we would try to imagine that we lived at the time of Darwin and would move along with him in the book we are currently reading. Speaking for myself, after we finish this book I would like to continue with further info about evolution that would relate to the question you are asking.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 16, 2006 - 04:47 pm
"With respect to the belief that organic beings have been created beautiful for the delight of man -- a belief which it has been pronounced is subversive of my whole theory -- I may first remark that the sense of beauty obviously depends on the nature of the mind, irrespective of any real quality in the admired object.

"That the idea of what is beautiful, is not innate or unalterable.

"We see this, for instance, in the men of different races admiring an entirely different standard of beauty in their women. If beautiful objects had been created solely for man's gratification, it ought to be shown that before man appeared, there was less beauty on the face of the earth than since he came on the stage.

"Were the beautiful volute and cone shells of the Eocene epoch, and the gracefully sculptured ammonites of the Secondary period, created that man might ages afterwards admire them in his cabinet?

"Few objects are more beautiful than the minute siliceous cases of the diatomaceae. Were these created that they might be examined and admired under the higher powers of the microscope? The beauty in this latter case, and in many others, is apparently wholly due to symmetry of growth.

"Flowers rank amongst the most beautiful productions of nature. They have been rendered conspicuous in contrast with the green leaves -- and in consequence at the same time beautiful -- so that they may be easily observed by insects. I have come to this conclusion from finding it an invariable rule that when a flower is fertilised by the wind it never has a gaily-coloured corolla.

"Several plants habitually produce two kinds of flowers -- one kind open and coloured so as to attract insects -- the other closed, not coloured, destitute of nectar, and never visited by insects.

"Hence we may conclude that, if insects had not been developed on the face of the earth, our plants would not have been decked with beautiful flowers -- but would have produced only such poor flowers as we see on our fir, oak, nut and ash trees, on grasses, spinach, docks, and nettles, which are all fertilised through the agency of the wind.

"A similar line of argument holds good with fruits -- that a ripe strawberry or cherry is as pleasing to the eye as to the palate. That the gaily-coloured fruit of the spindle-wood tree and the scarlet berries of the holly are beautiful objects will be admitted by every one.

"But this beauty serves merely as a guide to birds and beasts, in order that the fruit may be devoured and the matured seeds disseminated.

"I infer that this is the case from having as yet found no exception to the rule that seeds are always thus disseminated when embedded within a fruit of any kind (that is within a fleshy or pulpy envelope), if it be coloured of any brilliant tint, or rendered conspicuous by being white or black."

Is beautiy in the eye of the beholder -- whether the beholder be humans, insects, or hungry animals? I am wondering if what we are attracted to is automatically called beautiful. And is that so because we are merely following the "rules" of evolution.

Robby

Mallylee
August 17, 2006 - 12:00 am
Scrawler you ask the main question. I find it the most interesting question of all. I am not sure thta I agree with Robby in his opinion about it However, as Robby says as discussion organiser, I hope we can get back to this important issue later

Bubble
August 17, 2006 - 01:46 am
Canons of Beauty surely follow the dictates of instinct. One can learn to enlarge them but basically I feel they are embedded in each of nature's part, human or otherwise.

Isn't it the same with taste and hunger? Most animals would eat only what is good for them and when they need it. It is domesticated animals who eat poisonous weeds or food unsuitable for their organisms.

robert b. iadeluca
August 17, 2006 - 02:53 am
"On the other hand, I willingly admit that a great number of male animals -- as all our most gorgeous birds, some fishes, reptiles, and mammals, and a host of magnificently coloured butterflies -- have been rendered beautiful for beauty's sake. But this has been effected through sexual selection -- that is, by the more beautiful males having been continually preferred by the females -- and not for the delight of man.

"So it is with the music of birds. We may infer from all this that a nearly similar taste for beautiful colours and for musical sounds runs through a large part of the animal kingdom.

"When the female is as beautifully coloured as the male, which is not rarely the case with birds and butterflies, the cause apparently lies in the colours acquired through sexual selection having been transmitted to both sexes, instead of to the males alone.

"How the sense of beauty in its simplest form -- that is, the reception of a peculiar kind of pleasure from certain colours, forms, and sounds -- was first developed in the mind of man and of the lower animals, is a very obscure subject.

"The same sort of difficulty is presented, if we enquire how it is that certain flavours and odours give pleasure, and others displeasure.

"Habit in all these cases appears to have come to a certain extent into play. But there must be some fundamental cause in the constitution of the nervous system in each species."

In other words, if I understand Darwin correctly, organisms are "hard wired" to be attracted to certain colors, forms, odors, and sounds.

So we think we are rationally choosing our mate? Ha!!

Robby

Bubble
August 17, 2006 - 03:01 am
Oh, I did not think of sounds as well... Thank you Darwin!

robert b. iadeluca
August 17, 2006 - 03:05 am
Years ago in a serious discussion my wife and I were having, I asked her what attracted her to me. One of her answers was my "voice."

Robby

Bubble
August 17, 2006 - 03:17 am
I think I can see why.

Yes, voices have a very big significance. My choice of talk shows on the radio at night when I cannot sleep is very much influenced by the voice of the mediator. Bass is a pleasure to listen to.

Voice, eyes, smell and body language in that order... The intellect too of course. lol

Éloïse De Pelteau
August 18, 2006 - 12:00 am
Bubble, crooners attract a multitude of extatic teenage girls. To me the voice is a perfect musical instrument.

Bubble
August 18, 2006 - 12:26 am
Eloise, ma chère, I should have asked Illy to record your voice, I bet it is very melodic.

Were you also first attracted by the voice of your future husband?

Robby, why don't you make a survey in SN? It could give interesting results.

robert b. iadeluca
August 18, 2006 - 04:39 am
"Natural selection cannot possibly produce any modification in a species exclusively for the good of another species. Though throughout nature one species incessantly takes advantage of -- and profits by -- the structures of others.

"But natural selection can and does often produce structures for the direct injury of other animals -- as we see in the fang of the adder -- and in the ovipositor of the ichneumon, by which its eggs are deposited in the living bodies of other insects.

"If it could be proved that any part of the structure of any one species had been formed for the exclusive good of another species, it would annihilate my theory, for such could not have been produced through natural selection. Although many statements may be found in works on natural history to this effect, I cannot find even one which seems to me of any weight.

"It is admitted that the rattlesnake has a poison-fang for its own defence, and for the destruction of its prey. Some authors suppose that at the same time it is furnished with a rattle for its own injury, namely, to warn its prey. I would almost as soon believe that the cat curls the end of its tail when preparing to spring, in order to warn the doomed mouse.

"It is a much more probable view that the rattlesnake uses its rattle, the cobra expands its frill, and the puff-adder swells whilst hissing so loudly and harshly, in order to alarm the many birds and beasts which are known to attack even the most venomous species.

"Snakes act on the same principle which makes the hen ruffle her feathers and expand her wings when a dog approaches her chickens.

"I have not space here to enlarge on the many ways by which animals endeavour to frighten away their enemies."

This speaks for itself.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
August 18, 2006 - 04:56 am
Bubble, no my voice has gone astray, but yes, back then I was attracted to a man who had an operatic voice, but I didn't marry him, no not Pavarotti.

Good idea about making a survey about what feature is attractive to the opposite sex in people, but Darwin has not mentioned that yet and we are going astray here and Robby will probably steer the discussion back on track. It's fun though to be talking about people for a change.

Mallylee
August 18, 2006 - 05:58 am
"Natural selection cannot possibly produce any modification in a species exclusively for the good of another species.I note that Darwin says 'exclusively'. True, there are numerous examples of symbiosis. For instance the microbes that live in the guts of living animals, and aid in the processing of the animal's food.

Another example is the microbes that consume dead flesh. Without these, we would be up to our necks in dead pigeons. There is no intention in any of this, whether symbiotic or not.

robert b. iadeluca
August 19, 2006 - 04:38 am
"Natural selection will never produce in a being any structure more injurious than beneficial to that being, for natural selection acts solely by and for the good of each.

"No organ will be formed, as Paley has remarked, for the purpose of causing pain or for doing an injury to its possessor.

"If a fair balance be struck between the good and evil caused by each part, each will be found on the whole advantageous.

"After the lapse of time, under changing conditions of life, if any part comes to be injurious, it will be modified. If it be not so, the being Will become extinct as myriads have become extinct.

"Natural selection tends only to make each organic being as perfect as, or slightly more perfect than, the other inhabitants of the same country with which it comes into competition.

"And we see that this is the standard of perfection attained under nature. The endemic productions of New Zealand, for instance, are perfect when compared with another. But they are now rapidly yielding before the advancing legions of plants and animals introduced from Europe.

"Natural selection will not produce absolute perfection, nor do we always meet, as far as we can judge, with this high standard under nature.

"The correction for the aberration of light is said by Muller not to be perfect even in that most perfect organ, the human eye.

"Helmholtz, whose judgment no one will dispute, after describing in the strongest terms the wonderful powers of the human eye, adds these remarkable words:-- 'That which we have discovered in the way of inexactness and imperfection in the optical machine and in the image on the retina, is as nothing in comparison with the incongruities which we have just come across in the domain of the sensations. One might say that nature has taken delight in accumulating contradictions in order to remove all foundation from the theory of a pre-existing harmony between the external and internal worlds.'

"If our reason leads us to admire with enthusiasm a multitude of inimitable contrivances in nature, this same reason tells us -- though we may easily err on both sides -- that some other contrivances are less perfect.

"Can we consider the sting of the bee as perfect, which, when used against many kinds of enemies, cannot be withdrawn, owing to the backward serratures, and thus inevitably causes the death of the insect by tearing out its viscera?"

So are human beings gradually becoming more "perfect" despite the various roads leading to imperfection?

Robby

Bubble
August 19, 2006 - 05:33 am
Mmmm... Maybe if the bee was not to die, it would learn to enjoy stinging so much that it would become a calamity? It could cause the disappearance of said enemies?

tooki
August 19, 2006 - 07:00 am
In response to Crawler's question in Post 872, "Does Natural Selection apply to human beings as well," Daniel Dennett has this to say.

"After Darwin, God's role changes from being the designer of all creatures to being the designer of the LAWS of nature."

Dennett is a well known and respected contemporary philosopher. Here are more examples of his views.

robert b. iadeluca
August 19, 2006 - 09:20 am
Once we have finished this book, Tooki, I'm sure we will be moving into that area.

Robby

Mallylee
August 19, 2006 - 02:27 pm
Nobody knows what a perfect, or even near-perfect human being is. Some people with poor physique have courage or intelligence. Some cowards are beautiful to look at. It's a lot easier to say what are the qualities of the least perfect humans

robert b. iadeluca
August 19, 2006 - 05:11 pm
This is the last paragraph under the section entitled "Utilitarian Doctrine, how far true; Beauty, how acquired.

"If we look at the sting of the bee, as having existed in a remote progenitor, as a boring and serrated instrument -- like that in so many members of the same great order, and which has since been modified but not perfected for its present purpose -- with the poison originally adapted for some other object, such as to produce galls, since intensified -- we can perhaps understand how it is that the use of the sting should so often cause the insect's own death.

"If on the whole the power of stinging be useful to the social community, it will fulfil all the requirements of natural selection, though it may cause the death of some few members.

"If we admire the truly wonderful power of scent by which the males of many insects find their females, can we admire the production for this single purpose of thousands of drones -- which are utterly useless to the community for any other purpose -- and which are ultimately slaughtered by their industrious and sterile sisters?

"It may be difficult, but we ought to admire the savage instinctive hatred of the queen-bee, which urges her to destroy the young queens, her daughters, as soon as they are born, or to perish herself in the combat.

"Undoubtedly this is for the good of the community. Maternal love or maternal hatred -- though the latter fortunately is most rare -- is all the same to the inexorable principle of natural selection.

"If we admire the several ingenious contrivances, by which orchids and many other plants are fertilised through insect agency, can we consider as equally perfect the elaboration of dense clouds of pollen by our fir trees, so that a few granules may be wafted by chance on to the ovules?"

Darwin asks us to look at natural selection from the point of view of a community rather than an individual. Does at times the death or one organism aid in the survival of the community? Can a "savage instinctive hatred" be beneficial to the group at large?

How is it, throughout history, that many incipient kings kill their brothers and sons?

Robby

Bubble
August 20, 2006 - 02:14 am
CAIN! A quarter of the earth's population, for supremacy?

Mallylee
August 20, 2006 - 02:15 am
and sometimes the gods of nature were propitiated by a sacrifice of a king

robert b. iadeluca
August 20, 2006 - 04:07 am
Summary: the Law of Unity of Type and of the Conditions of Existence embraced by the Theory of Natural Selection

Bubble
August 20, 2006 - 04:09 am
Did his wife also helped him write all this like Ariel Durant?

robert b. iadeluca
August 20, 2006 - 04:20 am
"We have in this chapter discussed some of the difficulties and objections which may be urged against the theory.

"Many of them are serious. But I think that in the discussion light has been thrown on several facts, which on the belief of independent acts of creation are utterly obscure.

"We have seen that species at any one period are not indefinitely variable -- and are not linked together by a multitude of intermediate gradations -- partly because the process of natural selection is always very slow -- and at any one time acts only on a few forms.

"Partly because the very process of natural selection implies the continual supplanting and extinction of preceding and intermediate gradations.

"Closely allied species -- now living on a continuous area -- must often have been formed when the area was not continuous -- and when the conditions of life did not insensibly graduate away from one part to another.

"When two varieties are formed in two districts of a continuous area, an intermediate variety will often be formed, fitted for an intermediate zone. But from reasons assigned, the intermediate variety will usually exist in lesser numbers than the two forms which it connects.

"Consequently the two latter -- during the course of further modification, from existing in greater numbers -- will have a great advantage over the less numerous intermediate variety, and will thus generally succeed in supplanting and exterminating it.

"We have seen in this chapter how cautious we should be in concluding that the most different habits of life could not graduate into each other -- that a bat, for instance, could not have been formed by natural selection from an animal which at first only glided through the air.

"We have seen that a species under new conditions of life may change its habits. It may have diversified habits, with some very unlike those of its nearest congeners.

"Hence we can understand -- bearing in mind that each organic being is trying to live wherever it can live -- how it has arisen that there are upland geese with webbed feet -- ground woodpeckers -- diving thrushes -- and petrels with the habits of auks."

Darwin reminds us that the process of Natural Selection is very very slow. That Natural Selection means that organisms come to life and die. That the greater number wins out over the lesser number. That organisms which do not appear related to each other at all could very well be if we examine their parts carefully.

Robby

Mippy
August 20, 2006 - 06:58 am
I cannot join these posts, to my regret, without discomfort.
Your rules are to stick to Darwin's present book and not mention human evolution; then you do not avoid jumping to discussing human evolution.

Robby, you posted above: How is it, throughout history, that many incipient kings kill their brothers and sons? You are asking about kings killing brothers (for example, in Hamlet?), not to mention regicide by princes.
I assume your question did not mean a dog killing his brother, the king of the dogs, or a
lion prince killing the king of the lions.
You obviously meant human kings.

However, as a participant, I am not allowed to mention human evolution.
Thus, for several weeks, I have been reading, but not posting.

robert b. iadeluca
August 20, 2006 - 07:09 am
I plead guilty, Mippy. Occasionally I slipped. I will make every effort to follow my own ground rules.

Please continue to post.

Robby

Mippy
August 20, 2006 - 07:26 am

robert b. iadeluca
August 23, 2006 - 03:06 am
"Although the belief that an organ so perfect as the eye could have been formed by natural selection, is enough to stagger any one; yet in the case of any organ -- if we know of a long series of gradations in complexity, each good for its possessor -- then, under changing conditions of life, there is no logical impossibility in the acquirement of any conceivable degree of perfection through natural selection.

"In the cases in which we know of no intermediate or transitional states, we should be extremely cautious in concluding that none can have existed, for the metamorphoses of many organs show what wonderful changes in function are at least possible.

"For instance, a swimbladder has apparently been converted into an air-breathing lung. The same organ having performed simultaneously very different functions, and then having been in part or in whole specialised for one function -- and two distinct organs having performed at the same time the same function, the one having been perfected whilst aided by the other -- must often have largely facilitated transitions."

As I understand this, Darwin is saying that often in the past there may have been transitional stages of which we know nothing. We see one variety. Then we see another variety which appears very different. We come to the conclusion that they are separate and that one has no connection with the other.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 24, 2006 - 03:27 am
"We have seen that in two beings widely remote from each other in the natural scale, organs serving for the same purpose and in external appearance closely similar may have been separately and independently formed.

"But when such organs are closely examined, essential differences in their structure can almost always be detected. This naturally follows from the principle of natural selection.

"On the other hand, the common rule throughout nature is infinite diversity of structure for gaining the same end. This again naturally follows from the same great principle.

"In many cases we are far too ignorant to be enabled to assert that a part or organ is so unimportant for the welfare of a species -- that modifications in its structure could not have been slowly accumulated by means of natural selection.

"In many other cases, modifications are probably the direct result of the laws of variation or of growth, independently of any good having been thus gained. But even such structures have often, as we may feel assured, been subsequently taken advantage of -- and still further modified -- for the good of species under new conditions of life.

"We may, also, believe that a part formerly of high importance has frequently been retained -- as the tail of an aquatic animal by its terrestrial descendants -- though it has become of such small importance that it could not, in its present state, have been acquired by means of natural selection."

Any comments about Darwin's statement that "the common rule throughout nature is infinite diversity of structure for gaining the same end?" Do all roads lead to Rome?

Robby

Bubble
August 24, 2006 - 03:53 am
When Darwin explains it, it all seems so logical and obvious. One needed his genius to see it.

Mallylee
August 24, 2006 - 06:45 am
Indeed, Bubble that is true. I find it difficult to understand the older world view that was pre-Darwinian, amd especially , pre-Enlightenment

robert b. iadeluca
August 25, 2006 - 03:16 am
"Natural selection can produce nothing in one species for the exclusive good or injury of another.

"It may well produce parts, organs, and excretions highly useful or even indispensable -- or again highly injurious to another species -- but in all cases at the same time useful to the possessor.

"In each well-stocked country natural selection acts through the competition of the inhabitants -- and consequently leads to success in the battle for life -- only in accordance with the standard of that particular country. Hence the inhabitants of one country -- generally the smaller one -- often yield to the inhabitants of another and generally the larger country.

"In the larger country there will have existed more individuals and more diversified forms. The competition will have been severer, and thus the standard of perfection will have been rendered higher.

"Natural selection will not necessarily lead to absolute perfection; nor, as far as we can judge by our limited faculties, can absolute perfection be everywhere predicated.

"On the theory of natural selection we can clearly understand the full meaning of that old canon in natural history, "Natura non facit saltum."

"This canon, if we look to the present inhabitants alone of the world, is not strictly correct. But if we include all those of past times, whether known or unknown, it must on this theory be strictly true."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Mallylee
August 25, 2006 - 06:09 am
"Natural selection will not necessarily lead to absolute perfection; nor, as far as we can judge by our limited faculties, can absolute perfection be everywhere predicated.

Is Darwin writing this as a naturalist, or as a metaphysician? Absolute perfection, is after all. a perquisite of God, or of the idea of God.

Bubble
August 25, 2006 - 07:20 am
Mallylee, You mean that nature could not be perfect? At times, when I see a sunset I am awes to the point of judging it to be absolute perfection... I don't link that to any idea of deity. Of course it has nothing to do with natural selection.

robert b. iadeluca
August 25, 2006 - 04:43 pm
"It is generally acknowledged that all organic beings have been formed on two great laws: Unity of Type, and the Conditions of Existence.

"By unity of type is meant that fundamental agreement in structure which we see in organic beings of the same class, and which is quite independent of their habits of life. On my theory, unity of type is explained by unity of descent.

"The expression of conditions of existence, so often insisted on by the illustrious Cuvier, is fully embraced by the principle of natural selection. For natural selection acts by either now adapting the varying parts of each being to its organic and inorganic conditions of life -- or by having adapted them during past periods of time -- the adaptations being aided in many cases by the increased use or disuse of parts, being affected by the direct action of the external conditions of life -- and subjected in all cases to the several laws of growth and variation.

"Hence, in fact, the law of the Conditions of Existence is the higher law; as it includes, through the inheritance of former variations and adaptations, that of Unity of Type."

This is the last paragraph in Chapter Six on the "Difficulties of the Theory." Any Comments?

Robby

Mallylee
August 26, 2006 - 04:55 am
Bubbles. I have felt the same about a sunset, and other natural phenomena. However, colourful sunsets are caused by pollution in the atmosphere, and pollution is usually judged to be an imperfection.

The bird of prey in its full strength and ability is wonderful, but the bird kills rabbits.

I think that objective perfection is an idea , and has to remain nothing but an idea, an event that can never be attained, but I also think that the idea is good in itself, as an idea.

I am sure that perfection can be , and is,experienced subjectively, and this is no evidence that objective perfection exists anywhere

Mallylee
August 26, 2006 - 05:07 am
Unity of type.

Is it possible that there are certain attributes of a living organism that are indispensibly part of the type?

I am thinking of very general attributes such as having some physical structure or other to utilise oxygen, or physical structure to metabolise food and water. So perhaps semi-permeable membranes are indispensible?

robert b. iadeluca
August 26, 2006 - 08:09 am
CHAPTER VII

Miscellaneous Objections to the Theory of Natural Selection

robert b. iadeluca
August 26, 2006 - 08:26 am
We have to give Mr. Darwin credit. He gives us every opportunity to show where his theory does not hold water.

"I Will devote this chapter to the consideration of various miscellaneous objections which have been advanced against my views, as some of the previous discussions may thus be made clearer.

"But it would be useless to discuss all of them. Many have been made by writers who have not taken the trouble to understand the subject. Thus a distinguished German naturalist has asserted that the weakest part of my theory is, that I consider all organic beings as imperfect.

"What I have really said is, that all are not as perfect as they might have been in relation to their conditions. This is shown to be the case by so many native forms in many quarters of the world having yielded their places to intruding foreigners.

"Nor can organic beings, even if they were at any one time perfectly adapted to their conditions of life, have remained so -- when their conditions changed -- unless they themselves likewise changed.

"No one will dispute that the physical conditions of each country, as well as the numbers and kinds of its inhabitants, have undergone many mutations."

"Many have been made by writers who have not taken the trouble to understand the subject."

This is true a century or more later. Just read some of the articles about evolution in newspapers and magazines.

When we finish reading this book and move onto later books related to this subject, it will be interesting to read the comments of the new participants who have not read this original book by Darwin.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 27, 2006 - 04:31 am
"A critic has lately insisted, with some parade of mathematical accuracy, that longevity is a great advantage to all species.

"That he who believes in natural selection "must arrange his genealogical tree" in such a manner that all the descendants have longer lives than their progenitors!

"Cannot our critic conceive that a biennial plant or one of the lower animals might range into a cold climate and perish there every winter -- yet, owing to advantages gained through natural selection, survive from year to year by means of its seeds or ova?

"Mr. E. Ray Lankester has recently discussed this subject, and he concludes -- as far as its extreme complexity allows him to form a judgment -- that longevity is generally related to the standard of each species in the scale of organisation -- as well as to the amount of expenditure in reproduction and in general activity.

"And these conditions have, it is probable, been largely determined through natural selection."

"It has been argued that, as none of the animals and plants of Egypt, of which we know anything, have changed during the last three or four thousand years, so probably have none in any part of the world.

"But, as Mr. G. H. Lewes has remarked, this line of argument proves too much. The ancient domestic races figured on the Egyptian monuments, or embalmed, are closely similar or even identical with those now living -- yet all naturalists admit that such races have been produced through the modification of their original types.

"The many animals which have remained unchanged since the commencement of the glacial period, would have been an incomparably stronger case. These have been exposed to great changes of climate and have migrated over great distances.

"In Egypt, during the last several thousand years, the conditions of life, as far as we know, have remained absolutely uniform. The fact of little or no modification having been effected since the glacial period would have been of some avail against those who believe in an innate and necessary law of development. But is powerless against the doctrine of natural selection or the survival of the fittest -- which implies that when variations or individual differences of a beneficial nature happen to arise, these will be preserved -- but this will be effected only under certain favourable circumstances."

Comments, please?

Robby

Mallylee
August 27, 2006 - 09:10 am
This is making my brain sore, as i can see what Darwin means, and I can also see that there is another way to think about environment, and perfection.

"What I have really said is, that all are not as perfect as they might have been in relation to their conditions. This is shown to be the case by so many native forms in many quarters of the world having yielded their places to intruding foreigners

Can we take the case of feral mink in England, which I understand have decimated the population of native water voles? Well, the water voles may have been as near as dammit perfect for their environment, before the feral mink came on the scene. With the advent of the feral mink, the totality of the voles' environment changed . I suspect that Darwin's notion about perfection owes something to Plato.

Mallylee
August 27, 2006 - 09:15 am
Mr Lankester's conclusion is based on empirical facts. As I understand it, Darwin agrees with Mr Lankester?

Darwin agrees with Mr Lewes, that simply because Egyptian animals have been unchanged for thousands of years is not sufficient evidence that all animals remain unchanged for thousands of years, especially, when it is known that the Egyptian environment has not changed

robert b. iadeluca
August 27, 2006 - 09:18 am
I am glad that your brain is becoming sore, Mallylee, as the whole purpose of this discussion group is for us to "try" to understand what Darwin was saying, not what people later on were "interpreting" what he said. I am struggling along with everyone else here.

More and more as I read this book I am realizing the emphasis that Darwin placed on environment.

Robby

Bubble
August 27, 2006 - 09:26 am
I am glad I am not alone to be tangled by Darwin's sentences. I was almost going to search for a French version to see if it was clearer.

robert b. iadeluca
August 27, 2006 - 09:41 am
please realize, folks, that I take each of Darwin's paragraphs and divide it up into maybe five or six paragraphs. Then I take his long long complex sentences and put dashes in between the various subordinate phrases and clauses.

I think many of us agreed at the start that his 19th century way of writing was often the obstacles but that his logic was extremely simple if we only took the time to follow his path of thinking.

Robby

Bubble
August 27, 2006 - 10:33 am
Hid logic may be simple, but his thinking is very detailed, to prove his point of course. We are not used to so strict minuteness nowadays, everything has to move fast. "time is money".

On the other hand what is explained so precisely is bound to impress and stay in out mind for a long time.

robert b. iadeluca
August 28, 2006 - 03:18 am
"The celebrated palaeontologist, Bronn, at the close of his German translation of this work, asks, how -- on the principle of natural selection -- can a variety live side by side with the parent species?

"If both have become fitted for slightly different habits of life or conditions, they might live together.

"And if we lay on one side polymorphic species -- in which the variability seems to be of a peculiar nature, and all mere temporary variations, such as size, albinism, &c. -- the more permanent varieties are generally found, as far as I can discover, inhabiting distinct stations -- such as high land or low land, dry or moist districts.

"Moreover, in the case of animals which wander much about and cross freely, their varieties seem to be generally confined to distinct regions.

"Bronn also insists that distinct species never differ from each other in single characters, but in many parts.

"He asks, how it always comes that many parts of the organisation should have been modified at the same time through variation and natural selection.

"But there is no necessity for supposing that all the parts of any being have been simultaneously modified. The most striking modifications, excellently adapted for some purpose, might, as was formerly remarked, be acquired by successive variations -- if slight, first in one part and then in another. As they would be transmitted all together, they would appear to us as if they had been simultaneously developed.

"The best answer, however, to the above objection is afforded by those domestic races which have been modified -- chiefly through man's power of selection -- for some special purpose.

"Look at the race and dray horse, or at the greyhound and mastiff. Their whole frames and even their mental characteristics have been modified. If we could trace each step in the history of their transformation -- and the latter steps can be traced -- we should not see great and simultaneous changes, but first one part and then another slightly modified and improved.

"Even when selection has been applied by man to some one character alone -- of which our cultivated plants offer the best instances -- it will invariably be found that although this one part -- whether it be the flower, fruit, or leaves, has been greatly changed -- almost all the other parts have been slightly modified.

"This may be attributed partly to the principle of correlated growth, and partly to so-called spontaneous variation."

If I catch the above, Darwin is again emphasizing the importance of the environment. We don't find polar bears in the tropics.

As for modifications, he says that they occur one at a time, not all the modifications at once. I find it interesting that Darwin sees mental characteristics, eg the greyhound, as having been modified by "man's power of selection."

Robby

Bubble
August 28, 2006 - 03:36 am
To me it seems perfectly logical that physical changes would also produce mental changes. Surely an animal with his fighting characteristics encouraged would not be good for a herding job; one geared for speed would take off in pursuit, no matter what moved in front of him and would not analyze if there was a danger or not.

Mallylee
August 28, 2006 - 05:30 am
The race and the dray horse.I agree with you Bubbles

I wonder if the build and the mental characters of the two sorts of horse do not actually have to go together. I have always heard that the thick- set dray horse sort has a more placid nature than that of the thin- legged thoroughbred or Arabian which is fiery and fast moving.

The cold-bloods come from old northern European stock, and hot-bloods come from Arabian or Turkish or Barb stock.

If we think of human beings, the endocrine glands in particular the thyroid exerts an influence on both the body build and the emotions.

If a person has too much thyroxine, or too little thyroxine, the body hair, body fat and energy expenditure will follow suit all together in the same syndrome. I can imagine that in certain circumstances a slightly hypothyroid condition may be advantageous for survival.For instance when food is scarce, a slower rate of metabolism could enable a person to live long enough to have children. Just speculating !

Scrawler
August 28, 2006 - 02:20 pm
There might not be polar bears in the tropics, but could there be?

When I was living in my other apartment complex, I opened up the drapes one hot summer morning to find a mountain lion eating my cat's food on the back patio. Don't you think as animals run out of food and such they will go where they can find it? Than the question becomes can we co-exist with these folks?

Mallylee
August 28, 2006 - 11:36 pm
Scrawler, we can but will we? It looks as if all these folks are going to end up in reservations paid for by charities.

Did you ever read that poem ' We are Going to See the Rabbit'.?

http://members.lycos.co.uk/somnambulism/misc/rabbit.html

robert b. iadeluca
August 29, 2006 - 03:20 am
"A much more serious objection has been urged by Bronn, and recently by Broca -- namely, that many characters appear to be of no service whatever to their possessors -- and therefore cannot have been influenced through natural selection.

"Bronn adduces the length of the ears and tails in the different species of hares and mice -- the complex folds of enamel in the teeth of many animals -- and a multitude of analogous cases.

"With respect to plants, this subject has been discussed by Nageli in an admirable essay. He admits that natural selection has effected much, but he insists that the families of plants differ chiefly from each other in morphological characters, which appear to be quite unimportant for the welfare of the species.

"He consequently believes in an innate tendency towards progressive and more perfect development. He specifies the arrangement of the cells in the tissues -- and of the leaves on the axis -- as cases in which natural selection could not have acted. To these may be added the numerical divisions in the parts of the flower -- the position of the ovules -- the shape of the seed -- when not of any use for dissemination, &c.

"There is much force in the above objection.

"Nevertheless, we ought, in the first place, to be extremely cautious in pretending to decide what structures now are, or have formerly been, use to each species.

"In the second place, it should always be borne in mind that when part is modified, so will be other parts, through certain dimly seen causes, such as an increased or diminished flow of nutriment to a part -- mutual pressure -- an early developed part affecting one subsequently developed, and so forth -- as well as through other causes which lead to the many mysterious cases of correlation, which we do not in the least understand.

"These agencies may be all grouped together -- for the sake of brevity -- under the expression of the laws of growth.

"In the third place, we have to allow for the direct and definite action of changed conditions of life -- and for so-called spontaneous variations -- in which the nature of the conditions apparently plays a quite subordinate part.

"Bud-variations, such as the appearance of a moss-rose on a common rose -- or of a nectarine on a peach tree -- offer good instances of spontaneous variations. But even in these cases -- if we bear in mind the power of a minute drop of poison in producing complex galls -- we ought not to feel too sure that the above variations are not the effect of some local change in the nature of the sap -- due to some change in the conditions.

"There must be some efficient cause for each slight individual difference, as well as for more strongly marked variations which occasionally arise.

"If the unknown cause were to act persistently, it is almost certain that all the individuals of the species would be similarly modified."

Your comments on these paragraphs, please?

Robby

Mallylee
August 29, 2006 - 11:17 am
I already commented on a case of correlation . I'll write it another way: when a person becomes hypothyroid, the skin thickens, the body fat increases , and the mind becomes sluggish.Thus there is one efficient cause of these many effects

robert b. iadeluca
August 30, 2006 - 03:55 am
"In the earlier editions of this work I underrated, as it now seems probable, the frequency and importance of modifications due to spontaneous variability.

"But it is impossible to attribute to this cause the innumerable structures which are so well adapted to the habits of life of each species.

"I can no more believe in this than that the well-adapted form of a race-horse or greyhound -- which before the principle of selection by man was well understood, excited so much surprise in the minds of the older naturalists -- can thus be explained.

"It may be worth while to illustrate some of the foregoing remarks.

"With respect to the assumed inutility of various parts and organs, it is hardly necessary to observe that even in the higher and best-known animals many structures exist -- which are so highly developed that no one doubts that they are of importance -- yet their use has not been, or has only recently been, ascertained.

"As Bronn gives the length of the ears and tail in the several species of mice as instances, though trifling ones, of differences in structure which can be of no special use, I may mention that, according to Dr. Schobl, the external ears of the common mouse are supplied in an extraordinary manner with nerves, so that they no doubt serve as tactile organs.

"Hence the length of the ears can hardly be quite unimportant.

"We shall, also, presently see that the tail is a highly useful prehensile organ to some of the species. Its use would be much influenced by its length."

As I understand this, Darwin is saying that every single organ in every species either has an important function now or that its precursor had an important function. Nothing existed without reason.

Robby

Bubble
August 30, 2006 - 07:08 am
I wish I could remember if it was the bat or some rodent who was losing the sense of direction and range of sound when their ears were shaven... School was long ago!

Mippy
August 30, 2006 - 09:28 am
Robby, above you said: Darwin is saying that every single organ in every species either has an important function now or that its precursor had an important function. Nothing existed without reason.

Where do you gather that last thought?
Darwin seems to say a lot of organs may exist, but there may not be a reason we see them?
Or perhaps there is not a reason.

Do you yourself, not Darwin, believe nothing exists without reason?
I sure don't. Did Darwin?
Does this sound more like a matter of philosophy, not of science?

robert b. iadeluca
August 30, 2006 - 03:39 pm
Mippy:-I have been interpreting Darwin all along saying that every modification caused by Natural Selection is made to benefit the organism, and therefore every organ within it,

I am open to hear other thoughts.

Robby

Mippy
August 30, 2006 - 04:50 pm
Actually I do agree. I just wanted to open a discussion.
Sometimes we appear to believe that organisms are striving for perfection.
They are not, and Darwin did not say they are, either.
But there is no disagreement at all. Thanks!

Adrbri
August 30, 2006 - 09:12 pm
I wonder whether we have got that the wrong way round - - - " every modification - - is made to benefit the organism " - - -
do we mean " every modification that benefits the organism results in Natural Selection "

Modifications (mutations) that do NOT benefit the organism, result in it's failure to survive (De-selection ?)

Brian

Mallylee
August 30, 2006 - 11:36 pm
That's good Ardbri.

robert b. iadeluca
August 31, 2006 - 03:27 am
"With respect to plants -- to which on account of Nageli's essay I shall confine myself in the following remarks -- it will be admitted that the flowers of orchids present a multitude of curious structures, which a few years ago would have been considered as mere morphological differences without any special function.

"But they are now known to be of the highest importance for the fertilisation of the species through the aid of insects, and have probably been gained through natural selection.

"No one until lately would have imagined that in dimorphic and trimorphic plants the different lengths of the stamens and pistils -- and their arrangement -- could have been of any service, but now we know this to be the case.

"In certain whole groups of plants the ovules stand erect. In others they are suspended. Within the same ovarium of some few plants, one ovule holds the former and a second ovule the latter position.

"These positions seem at first purely morphological, or of no physiological signification. But Dr. Hooker informs me that within the same ovarium, the upper ovules alone in some cases, and in other cases the lower ones alone are fertilised. He suggests that this probably depends on the direction in which the pollen-tubes enter the ovarium.

"If so, the position of the ovules -- even when one is erect and the other suspended within the same ovarium -- would follow from the selection of any slight deviations in position which favoured their fertilisation, and the production of seed."

Any comments on this paragraph?

Robby

Adrbri
August 31, 2006 - 11:58 am
This link may be of interest ; http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/30/pope_calls_meeting/

Brian

Mallylee
September 1, 2006 - 12:19 am
Brian, the RCC that depends on the entire myth, miracles and all, would be defunct if the scientific rationalists'opinions were countenanced.

There is an argument for retaining the authoritarian structure which rests on a pessimistic concept of human nature , as needing strong government from its social betters.

robert b. iadeluca
September 1, 2006 - 03:25 am
"Several plants belonging to distinct orders habitually produce flowers of two kinds -- the one open of the ordinary structure, the other closed and imperfect.

"These two kinds of flowers sometimes differ wonderfully in structure, yet may be seen to graduate into each other on the same plant.

"The ordinary and open flowers can be intercrossed. The benefits which certainly are derived from this process are thus secured.

"The closed and imperfect flowers are, however, manifestly of high importance, as they yield with the utmost safety a large stock of seed, with the expenditure of wonderfully little pollen.

"The two kinds of flowers often differ much, as just stated, in structure. The petals in the imperfect flowers almost always consist of mere rudiments, and the pollen-grains are reduced in diameter.

"In Ononis columnae five of the alternate stamens are rudimentary. In some species of Viola three stamens are in this state, two retaining their proper function, but being of very small size.

"In six out of thirty of the closed flowers in an Indian violet -- name unknown, for the plants have never produced with me perfect flowers -- the sepals are reduced from the normal number of five to three.

"In one section of the Malpighiaceae the closed flowers, according to A. de Jussieu, are still further modified. The five stamens which stand opposite to the sepals are all aborted, sixth stamen standing opposite to a petal being alone developed.

"This stamen is not present in the ordinary flowers of these species. The style is aborted. The ovaria are reduced from three to two.

"Now although natural selection may well have had the power to prevent some of the flowers from expanding -- and to reduce the amount of pollen, when rendered by the closure of the flowers superfluous -- yet hardly any of the above special modifications can have been thus determined -- but must have followed from the laws of growth -- including the functional inactivity of parts -- during the progress of the reduction of the pollen and the closure of the flowers."

Any horticulturalists here?

Robby

Mippy
September 1, 2006 - 02:35 pm
Yes, but I cannot think of a comment. Darwin makes his point.

Off subject: Robbie, I'll be at the Oct conference on Sat, so perhaps we'll have a chance to meet!

robert b. iadeluca
September 1, 2006 - 02:54 pm
That sounds great, Mippy!

Robby

Bubble
September 2, 2006 - 04:07 am
Quote:"While the scientist believes in evolution, the evangelical Christian interprets the Bible as the literal word of God.

"I may be wrong, you may be wrong. We may both be partly right," Wilson writes."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060901/sc_nm/religion_environment_wilson_dc_1

robert b. iadeluca
September 2, 2006 - 10:22 am
"It is so necessary to appreciate the important effects of the laws of growth, that I will give some additional cases of another kind -- namely of differences in the same part or organ -- due to differences in relative position on the same plant.

"In the Spanish chestnut, and in certain fir-trees, the angles of divergence of the leaves differ, according to Schacht, in the nearly horizontal and in the upright branches.

"In the common rue and some other plants, one flower -- usually the central or terminal one -- opens first, and has five sepals and petals, and five divisions to the ovarium. All the other flowers on the plant are tetramerous.

"In the British Adoxa the uppermost flower generally has two calyx-lobes with the other organs tetramerous, whilst the surrounding flowers generally have three calyx-lobes with the other organs pentamerous.

"In many Compositae and Umbelliferae -- and in some other plants -- the circumferential flowers have their corollas much more developed than those of the centre. This seems often connected with the abortion of the reproductive organs.

"It is a more curious fact, previously referred to, that the achenes or seeds of the circumference and centre sometimes differ greatly in form, colour, and other characters.

"In Carthamus and some other Compositae the central achenes alone are furnished with a pappus. In Hyoseris the same head yields achenes of three different forms.

"In certain Umbelliferae the exterior seeds, according to Tausch, are orthospermous, and the central one coelospermous. This is a character which was considered by De Candolle to be in other species of the highest systematic importance.

"Prof. Braun mentions a Fumariaceous genus, in which the flowers in the lower part of the spike bear oval, ribbed, one-seeded nutlets -- and in the upper part of the spike, lanceolate, two-valved, and two-seeded siliques.

"In these several cases -- with the exception of that of the well developed rayflorets, which are of service in making the flowers conspicuous to insects -- natural selection cannot, as far as we can judge, have come into play -- or only in a quite subordinate manner.

"All these modifications follow from the relative position and inter-action of the parts. It can hardly be doubted that if all the flowers and leaves on the same plant had been subjected to the same external and internal condition -- as are the flowers and leaves in certain positions -- all would have been modified in the same manner."

I haven't the slightest understanding of all those botanical terms but I think he is giving some examples where the different locations of various organs on the plant determine their function. Yes? No?

Robby

Bubble
September 2, 2006 - 11:18 am
I understood it to mean that the location or position of certain organs will determine their characteristics being different. The higher siliques of some plants for examples produce more seeds than the lower siliques.

In some composite flowers, only the central flowers of the cluster are fertile and will give seeds while the flowers making the circumference will be more showy to attract insects but will remain sterile.

robert b. iadeluca
September 2, 2006 - 11:22 am
PHE-E-E-EW!! I sure need you here, Bubble!

Robby

Bubble
September 2, 2006 - 11:29 am
In French, the fruit of the Jacaranda tree is called a silique too.

http://trees.stanford.edu/images/Bign/Bign-Pages/Image4.html

http://www.botgard.ucla.edu/html/MEMBGNewsletter/Volume1number4/b0755tx.html

See here the shape of half a silique and the numerous winged seeds that are attached to the central nervure. The woody silique is hinged at the top near its stem.

robert b. iadeluca
September 3, 2006 - 04:43 am
"In numerous other cases we find modifications of structure -- which are considered by botanists to be generally of a highly important nature -- affecting only some of the flowers on the same plant, or occurring on distinct plants, which grow close together under the same conditions.

"As these variations seem of no special use to the plants, they cannot have been influenced by natural selection.

"Of their cause we are quite ignorant. We cannot even attribute them, as in the last class of cases, to any proximate agency, such as relative position.

"I will give only a few instances. It is so common to observe on the same plant, flowers indifferently tetramerous, pentamerous, &c., that I need not give examples. But as numerical variations are comparatively rare when the parts are few, I may mention that, according to De Candolle, the flowers of Papaver bracteatum offer either two sepals with four petals (which is the common type with poppies), or three sepals with six petals.

"The manner in which the petals are folded in the bud is in most groups a very constant morphological character. Professor Asa Gray states that with some species of Mimulus, the aestivation is almost as frequently that of the Rhinanthideae as of the Antirrhinideae, to which latter tribe the genus belongs.

"Auguste de Saint-Hilaire gives the following cases -- the genus Zanthoxylon belongs to a division of the Rutacese with a single ovary, but in some species flowers may be found on the same plant -- and even in the same panicle, with either one or two ovaries.

"In Helianthemum the capsule has been described as unilocular or trilocular; and in H. mutabile, "Une lame, plus ou moins large, s'etend entre le pericarpe et le placenta."

"In the flowers of Saponaria officinalis, Dr. Masters has observed instances of both marginal and free central placentation.

"Lastly, Saint-Hilaire found towards the southern extreme of the range of Gomphia oleaeformis two forms which he did not at first doubt were distinct species, but he subsequently saw them growing on the same bush.

"He then adds, "Voila donc dans un meme individu des loges et un style qui se rattachent tantot a un axe verticale et tantot a un gynobase."

As usual, I am ignorant when it comes to horticultural terms and Bubble will help us to translate the French.

However -- this surprises me. Darwin says: "As these variations seem of no special use to the plants, they cannot have been influenced by natural selection."

I thought that every variation was influenced by natural selection. Isn't he contradicting everything he has been telling us so far?

Robby

Bubble
September 3, 2006 - 05:06 am
Not all variations are influenced by natural selection, some can be a natural spontaneous mutation. It happens in human as well with a sudden difference in size or in morphology, for example born with the heart on the right side instead of left.

Saint Hilaire says that on the same plant he saw flowers with cells and a stylus that were attached either to a vertical axis or to a dilated receptacle supporting a multilocular ovary.

Previously he said that in the Helianthemum mutabilethere there can be a more or less wide space between the walls and the ovary part of the flower where the seeds are formed.

Mallylee
September 3, 2006 - 09:46 am
Thank you Robby and Bubble! I still cannot understand why these different forms on the same plant cannot be due to Natural selection. I would have thought that Nat selection works with the seeds,which themselves carry the information that decides what and where on the individual plant the forms will occur.

It may be that variable forms on the same individual are neutral as far as Nat selection is concerned, that is, they are due to a harmless or inert mutation.

Bubbles, I wonder if there is a health disadvantage in having one's heart on the other side. If the liver ,spleen and pancreas were on the usual side, and the heart were on the wrong side, maybe the connections between the heart and these important organs would be compromised. It's all the one system with components working in concert.

robert b. iadeluca
September 3, 2006 - 10:13 am
Here is a definition of a MUTATION. Following our own ground rules, we are living at the time of Darwin and know nothing about genes or DNA. I guess, however, that we will have to accept those words being used as mutations are defined. Darwin may have known what happened but he may not have known why.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 3, 2006 - 10:37 am
I think I'm beginning to understand this as I read the link to "mutation." To quote:- "Mutations are considered the driving force of evolution. Less favorable mutations are removed by natural selection. More favorable or advantageous ones tend to accumulate."

In other words, Nature selects (natural selection) but it has to have something to select from. Changes are made through mutation and Nature says: "I like this because it benefits the plant. I don't like that because it is not beneficial."

I realize I am anthropomorphizing Nature but you get what I mean.

If there were never any mutations -- if everything was static -- there would be no natural selection and life would be exactly as it was millions of years ago.

Robby

Bubble
September 3, 2006 - 10:42 am
you expressed it so well...

robert b. iadeluca
September 3, 2006 - 10:53 am
And as I continue to read this link, I realize why Darwin was emphasizing tne environment so much. This link tells how important is the effect of ultra violet light (sunlight) which can cause mutations. Or the effect of certain chemicals in causing mutations. These chemicals could be part of nature itself or they could be the "stuff" we are putting on plants these days.

So all sorts of mutations are occuring and Nature is having one heck of a job trying to figure out what is the most beneficial for the plants.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 3, 2006 - 11:21 am
"We thus see that with plants many morphological changes may be attributed to the laws of growth and the inter-action of parts, independently of natural selection.

"But with respect to Nageli's doctrine of an innate tendency towards perfection or progressive development, can it be said in the case of these strongly pronounced variations -- that the plants have been caught in the act of progressing towards a higher state of development?

"On the contrary, I should infer from the mere fact of the parts in question differing or varying greatly on the same plant -- that such modifications were of extremely small importance to the plants themselves -- of whatever importance they may generally be to us for our classifications.

"The acquisition of a useless part can hardly be said to raise an organism in the natural scale. In the case of the imperfect, closed flowers above described -- if any new principle has to be invoked -- it must be one of retrogression rather than of progression.

"So it must be with many parasitic and degraded animals.

"We are ignorant of the exciting cause of the above specified modifications. But if the unknown cause were to act almost uniformly for a length of time, we may infer that the result would be almost uniform.

"In this case all the individuals of the species would be modified in the same manner."

Any comments?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 3, 2006 - 08:31 pm
"From the fact of the above characters being unimportant for the welfare of the species, any slight variations which occurred in them would not have been accumulated and augmented through natural selection.

"A structure which has been developed through long-continued selection -- when it ceases to be of service to a species -- generally becomes variable, as we see with rudimentary organs. For it will no longer be regulated by this same power of selection.

"But when -- from the nature of the organism and of the conditions, modifications have been induced which are unimportant for the welfare of the species -- they may be -- and apparently often have been -- transmitted in nearly the same state to numerous, otherwise modified, descendants.

"It cannot have been of much importance to the greater number of mammals, birds, or reptiles, whether they were clothed with hair, feathers, or scales. Yet hair has been transmitted to almost all mammals, feathers to all birds, and scales to all true reptiles.

"A structure -- whatever it may be, which is common to many allied forms -- is ranked by us as of high systematic importance -- and consequently is often assumed to be of high vital importance to the species. Thus -- as I am inclined to believe -- differences, which we consider as important -- such as the arrangement of the leaves, the divisions of the flower or of the ovarium, the position of the ovules, &c. -- first appeared in many cases as fluctuating variations, which sooner or later became constant through the nature of the organism and of the surrounding conditions -- as well as through the intercrossing of distinct individuals -- but not through natural selection.

"As these morphological characters do not affect the welfare of the species, any slight deviations in them could not have been governed or accumulated through this latter agency.

"It is a strange result which we thus arrive at -- namely that characters of slight vital importance to the species, are the most important to the systematist. But, as we shall hereafter see when we treat of the genetic principle of classification, this is by no means so paradoxical as it may at first appear."

Anyone here want to unscramble this?

Robby

Bubble
September 4, 2006 - 01:54 am
"It cannot have been of much importance to the greater number of mammals, birds, or reptiles, whether they were clothed with hair, feathers, or scales. Yet hair has been transmitted to almost all mammals, feathers to all birds, and scales to all true reptiles. "

I don't agree! Hair could not be waterproofed or airproofed as the feathers are, it needs some area space for that., and birds need it to stay on water or in turbulent air currents. On the other hand, if mammal had it it would be a nesting ground for the bugs, lice, etc...

Darwin has some insight on what is going on even thought DNA, genes, etc were still undiscovered. Genius!

Mallylee
September 4, 2006 - 02:25 am
that the plants have been caught in the act of progressing towards a higher state of development?

Ouch! Naughty Darwin being teleological!

I can't remember, was he actually a Christian, or only said so to please his wife?

Mallylee
September 4, 2006 - 02:28 am
you expressed it so well... Bubble to robby. Yup! I doubt if I have the staying power to wade through Origins without Robby being the good shepherd

Mallylee
September 4, 2006 - 02:29 am
you expressed it so well... Bubble to Robby. Yup! I doubt if I have the staying power to wade through Origins without Robby being the good shepherd. On second thoughts, I'd better call him the bell wether

robert b. iadeluca
September 4, 2006 - 03:12 am
I'll keep it up until I hear some of you sheep saying "Ba-a-a!!"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 4, 2006 - 03:49 am
"Although we have no good evidence of the existence in organic beings of an innate tendency towards progressive development, yet this necessarily follows -- as I have attempted to show in the fourth chapter -- through the continued action of natural selection.

"The best definition which has ever been given of a high standard of organisation, is the degree to which the parts have been specialised or differentiated. Natural selection tends towards this end. The parts are thus enabled to perform their functions more efficiently.

"A distinguished zoologist, Mr. St. George Mivart, has recently collected all the objections which have ever been advanced by myself and others against the theory of natural selection, as propounded by Mr. Wallace and myself -- and has illustrated them with admirable art and force.

"When thus marshalled, they make a formidable array. As it forms no part of Mr. Mivart's plan to give the various facts and considerations opposed to his conclusions, no slight effort of reason and memory is left to the reader, who may wish to weigh the evidence on both sides.

"When discussing special cases, Mr. Mivart passes over the effects of the increased use and disuse of parts, which I have always maintained to be highly important -- and have treated in my Variation under Domestication at greater length than, as I believe, any other writer.

"He likewise often assumes that I attribute nothing to variation, independently of natural selection, whereas in the work just referred to I have collected a greater number of well-established cases than can be found in any other work known to me.

"My judgment may not be trustworthy -- but after reading with care Mr. Mivart's book, and comparing each section with what I have said on the same head -- I never before felt so strongly convinced of the general truth of the conclusions here arrived at, subject, of course, in so intricate a subject, to much partial error."

If I am following this, Darwin says that constant natural selection leads to "innate tendencies." Natural selection leads toward specialization and differentiation. This, in turn, leads to a high standard of organization. The organism therefore performs more efficiently.

Darwin goes on to say that, in his opinion, the use and/or disuse of parts in the organism is extremely important. He used, as examples, the various animals that Man has domesticated.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 4, 2006 - 04:20 am
Here are comment after comment about INNATE TENDENCIES to stimulate your thinking.

Robby

Mallylee
September 4, 2006 - 03:05 pm
Robby I read only a small selection of the comments on the seminar, and I hope to go back to it and try to understand some more.

The idea that interested me most is the idea that patterns are not the same as purposes. True, the 'Nun Bun' ,faces in clouds, faces on rocks that are much less explicit than those on Mount Rushmore, Rorschach ink blots, dreams , and nonsense verses, do all form patterns i.e. meanings.

However, for a pattern to cause an agent to purpose something or other depends on other variables, such as reliable information, sympathy,and whether or not they had a restful night's sleep. I mean, I think that although patterns and the brain modules that support them have a lot of evidence, agency can be more free , or less free, depending on how much the agent's purpose is caused by innate pattern dispositions, plus other unreasoning causes, and how much from reason. This, I get from Spinoza, my hero,

robert b. iadeluca
September 4, 2006 - 05:43 pm
"All Mr. Mivart's objections will be, or have been, considered in the present volume.

"The one new point which appears to have struck many readers is, "that natural selection is incompetent to account for the incipient stages of useful structures."

"This subject is intimately connected with that of the gradation of characters -- often accompanied by a change of function -- for instance, the conversion of a swimbladder into lungs -- points which were discussed in the last chapter under two headings.

"Nevertheless, I will here consider in some detail several of the cases advanced by Mr. Mivart, selecting those which are the most illustrative, as want of space prevents me from considering all.

"The giraffe, by its lofty stature, much elongated neck, fore-legs, head and tongue, has its whole frame beautifully adapted for browsing on the higher branches of trees.

"It can thus obtain food beyond the reach of the other Ungulata or hoofed animals inhabiting the same country; and this must be a great advantage to it during dearths.

"The Niata cattle in S. America show us how small a difference in structure may make, during such periods, a great difference in preserving an animal's life.

"These cattle can browse as well as others on grass, but from the projection of the lower jaw they cannot -- during the often recurrent droughts -- browse on the twigs of trees, reeds, &c., to which food the common cattle and horses are then driven. At these times the Niatas perish, if not fed by their owners.

"Before coming to Mr. Mivart's objections, it may be well to explain once again how natural selection will act in all ordinary cases.

"Man has modified some of his animals -- without necessarily having attended to special points of structure -- by simply preserving and breeding from the fleetest individuals, as with the race-horse and greyhound -- or as with the game-cock, by breeding from the victorious birds.

"So under nature with the nascent giraffe the individuals which were the highest browsers, and were able during dearths to reach even an inch or two above the others, will often have been preserved. They will have roamed over the whole country in search of food.

"That the individuals of the same species often differ slightly in the relative lengths of all their parts may be seen in many works of natural history, in which careful measurements are given. These slight proportional differences -- due to the laws of growth and variation -- are not of the slightest use or importance to most species.

"But it will have been otherwise with the nascent giraffe, considering its probable habits of life. For those individuals which had some one part or several parts of their bodies rather more elongated than usual, would generally have survived. These will have intercrossed and left offspring -- either inheriting the same bodily peculiarities, or with a tendency to vary again in the same manner -- whilst the individuals, less favoured in the same respects, will have been the most liable to perish."

I think Darwin is saying that even the slightest different in structure can determine if a species survives -- e.g. the length of the giraffe's neck. The man with the longest legs escapes the lion?

Robby

Bubble
September 4, 2006 - 10:59 pm
and these slight differences being preserved and thus reinforced in subsequent offspring, will become a determining character of that particular branch of,,, animals or plants.

Mallylee
September 4, 2006 - 11:36 pm
Do you ever eat the Scottish meat dish called a haggis? The Scottish explanation of a haggis is a small animal with legs on the one side shorter than the other side, because it comes from the mountainous Highlands, where it has to walk along steep mountain sides.

Bubble
September 4, 2006 - 11:40 pm
hag·gis n. Chiefly Scot.
a traditional pudding made of the heart, liver, etc., of a sheep or calf, minced with suet and oatmeal, seasoned, and boiled in the stomach of the animal.

I don't want to try it... Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2006 - 04:05 am
"We here see that there is no need to separate single pairs, as man does, when he methodically improves a breed.

"Natural selection will preserve and thus separate all the superior individuals -- allowing them freely to intercross -- and will destroy all the inferior individuals.

"By this process long-continued, which exactly corresponds with what I have called unconscious selection by man -- combined no doubt in a most important manner with the inherited effects of the increased use of parts -- it seems to me almost certain that an ordinary hoofed quadruped might be converted into a giraffe.

"To this conclusion Mr. Mivart brings forward two objections.

"One is that the increased size of the body would obviously require an increased supply of food, and he considers it as "very problematical whether the disadvantages thence arising would not -- in times of scarcity -- more than counterbalance the advantages."

"But as the giraffe does actually exist in large numbers in S. Africa -- and as some of the largest antelopes in the world, taller than an ox, abound there -- why should we doubt that, as far as size is concerned, intermediate gradations could formerly have existed there, subjected as now to severe dearths.

"Assuredly their being able to reach, at each stage of increased size, to a supply of food, left untouched by the other hoofed quadrupeds of the country, would have been of some advantage to the nascent giraffe.

"Nor must we overlook the fact, that increased bulk would act as a protection against almost all beasts of prey excepting the lion. Against this animal, its tall neck -- and the taller the better -- would, as Mr. Chauncey Wright has remarked, serve as a watch-tower.

"It is from this cause, as Sir S. Baker remarks, that no animal is more difficult to stalk than the giraffe. This animal also uses its long neck as a means of offence or defence, by violently swinging his head armed with stump-like horns.

"The preservation of each species can rarely be determined by any one advantage, but by the union of all, great and small."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Mallylee
September 6, 2006 - 01:28 am
Yes, 'the union of all'. It has a priestly ring to it which is religious,pantheistic, in its implications. As I understand deep ecology, it is that every life depends on every other life, and also on climate ,terrain and past events. But never, never, on future events!

Bubble
September 6, 2006 - 01:50 am
Life is built on past and present with everything interdependent. The future? Que sera, sera!

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2006 - 04:02 am
"Mr. Mivart then asks (and this is his second objection), if natural selection be so potent -- and if high browsing be so great an advantage -- why has not any other hoofed quadruped acquired a long neck and lofty stature, besides the giraffe -- and, in a lesser degree, the camel, guanaeo, and macrauchenia?

"Or, again, why has not any member of the group acquired a long proboscis?

"With respect to S. Africa, which was formerly inhabited by numerous herds of the giraffe, the answer is not difficult, and can best be given by an illustration. In every meadow in England in which trees grow, we see the lower branches trimmed or planed to an exact level by the browsing of the horses or cattle; and what advantage would it be, for instance, to sheep, if kept there, to acquire slightly longer necks?

"In every district some one kind of animal will almost certainly be able to browse higher than the others. It is almost equally certain that this one kind alone could have its neck elongated for this purpose, through natural selection and the effects of increased use.

"In S. Africa the competition for browsing on the higher branches of the acacias and other trees must be between giraffe and giraffe, and not with the other ungulate animals.

"Why, in other quarters of the world, various animals belonging to this same order have not acquired either an elongated neck or a proboscis, cannot be distinctly answered. It is as unreasonable to expect a distinct answer to such a question, as why some event in the history of mankind did not occur in one country, whilst it did in another.

"We are ignorant with respect to the conditions which determine the numbers and range of each species. We cannot even conjecture what changes of structure would be favourable to its increase in some new country.

"We can, however, see in a general manner that various causes might have interfered with the development of a long neck or proboscis. To reach the foliage at a considerable height -- without climbing, for which hoofed animals are singularly ill-constructed -- implies greatly increased bulk of body.

"We know that some areas support singularly few large quadrupeds, for instance S. America, though it is so luxuriant. S. Africa abounds with them to an unparalleled degree. Why this should be so, we do not know; nor why the later tertiary periods should have been so much more favourable for their existence than the present time.

Whatever the causes may have been, we can see that certain districts and times would have been much more favourable than others for the development of so large a quadruped as the giraffe."

Any thoughts as to why this is so?

Robby

Mallylee
September 6, 2006 - 04:10 am
Yes, Bubble, we are on the same train

Mallylee
September 6, 2006 - 04:19 am
http://darwin.thefreelibrary.com/The-Voyage-of-the-Beagle/8-1-3

Here, Darwin comments on the mystery of why large quadrupeds died out in South America.

I dont think he commented on the possibility of disease that attacks ungulates, or hypothetically,the rise of some efficient predator that ate itself into extinction along with its prey.

robert b. iadeluca
September 7, 2006 - 04:02 am
"In order that an animal should acquire some structure specially and largely developed, it is almost indispensable that several other parts should be modified and co-adapted.

"Although every part of the body varies slightly, it does not follow that the necessary parts should always vary in the right direction and to the right degree. With the different species of our domesticated animals we know that the parts vary in a different manner and degree -- and that some species are much more variable than others.

"Even if the fitting variations did arise, it does not follow that natural selection would be able to act on them, and produce a structure which apparently would be beneficial to the species.

"For instance, if the number of individuals existing in a country is determined chiefly through destruction by beasts of prey,- by external or internal parasites, &c. -- as seems often to be the case, then natural selection will be able to do little, or will be greatly retarded, in modifying any particular structure for obtaining food.

"Lastly, natural selection is a slow process, and the same favourable conditions must long endure in order that any marked effect should thus be produced.

"Except by assigning such general and vague reasons, we cannot explain why -- in many quarters of the world -- hoofed quadrupeds have not acquired much elongated necks or other means for browsing on the higher branches of trees."

Everyone in agreement?

Robby

Scrawler
September 7, 2006 - 02:07 pm
It seems to me that Darwin believed in an evolution where the needs of the individual species dictated the outcome of the survival of the species even more so than natural selection. If an animal needed an elongated neck it would develop it out of necessity.

robert b. iadeluca
September 7, 2006 - 05:42 pm
Scrawler:-But wasn't that elongated neck developed through natural selection? The ones with the longer necks who had access to the leaves lived. The others died.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2006 - 05:04 am
"Objections of the same nature as the foregoing have been advanced by many writers.

"In each case various causes -- besides the general ones just indicated -- have probably interfered with the acquisition through natural selection of structures, which it is thought would be beneficial to certain species.

"One writer asks, why has not the ostrich acquired the power of flight? But a moment's reflection will show what an enormous supply of food would be necessary to give to this bird of the desert force to move its huge body through the air.

"Oceanic islands are inhabited by bats and seals, but by no terrestrial mammals. Yet as some of these bats are peculiar species, they must have long inhabited their present homes. Therefore Sir C. Lyell asks, and assigns certain reasons in answer, why have not seals and bats given birth on such islands to forms fitted to live on the land?

"But seals would necessarily be first converted into terrestrial carnivorous animals of considerable size, and bats into terrestrial insectivorous animals. For the former there would be no prey. For the bats ground-insects would serve as food, but these would already be largely preyed on by the reptiles or birds, which first colonise and abound on most oceanic islands.

"Gradations of structure, with each stage beneficial to a changing species, will be favoured only under certain peculiar conditions.

"A strictly terrestrial animal, by occasionally hunting for food in shallow water, then in streams or lakes, might at last be converted into an animal so thoroughly aquatic as to brave the open ocean. But seals would not find on oceanic islands the conditions favourable to their gradual reconversion into a terrestrial form.

"Bats, as formerly shown, probably acquired their wings by at first gliding through the air from tree to tree -- like the so-called flying squirrels, for the sake of escaping from their enemies -- or for avoiding falls. But when the power of true flight had once been acquired, it would never be reconverted back, at least for the above purposes, into the less efficient power of gliding through the air.

"Bats might, indeed, like many birds, have had their wings greatly reduced in size, or completely lost, through disuse. But in this case it would be necessary that they should first have acquired the power of running quickly on the ground -- by the aid of their hind legs alone -- so as to compete with birds or other ground animals. For such a change a bat seems singularly ill-fitted.

"These conjectural remarks have been made merely to show that a transition of structure -- with each step beneficial -- is a highly complex affair. There is nothing strange in a transition not having occurred in any particular case."

What are your thoughts here?

Robby

Mallylee
September 8, 2006 - 11:55 pm
A highly complex affair, and not one cause in the complex is a final cause, as Aristotle might have surmised, and as Aquinas believed

robert b. iadeluca
September 9, 2006 - 05:17 am
"Lastly, more than one writer has asked, why have some animals had their mental powers more highly developed than others, as such development would be advantageous to an?

"Why have not apes acquired the intellectual powers of man?

"Various causes could be assigned. As they are conjectural, and their relative probability cannot be weighed, it would be useless to give them.

"A definite answer to the latter question ought not to be expected, seeing that no one can solve the simpler problem why -- of two races of savages -- one has risen higher in the scale of civilisation than the other. This apparently implies increased brain-power.

"We will return to Mr. Mivart's other objections.

"Insects often resemble for the sake of protection various objects, such as green or decayed leaves, dead twigs, bits of lichen, flowers, spines, excrement of birds, and living insects. To this latter point I shall hereafter recur.

"The resemblance is often wonderfully close, and is not confined to colour, but extends to form, and even to the manner in which the insects hold themselves. The caterpillars which project motionless like dead twigs from the bushes on which they feed, offer an excellent instance of a resemblance of this kind. The cases of the imitation of such objects as the excrement of birds, are rare and exceptional.

"On this head, Mr. Mivart remarks, "As, according to Mr. Darwin's theory, there is a constant tendency to indefinite variation -- and as the minute incipient variations will be in all directions -- they must tend to neutralise each other -- and at first to form such unstable modifications that it is difficult, if not impossible, to see how such indefinite oscillations of infinitesimal beginnings can ever build up a sufficiently appreciable resemblance to a leaf, bamboo, or other object -- for Natural Selection to seize upon and perpetuate."

Darwin, at least at this point, refuses to conjecture why apes have not acquired the mental powers of man, Anyone here want to take that leap?

Robby

Bubble
September 9, 2006 - 05:39 am
A tiny random mutation happening by chance...

robert b. iadeluca
September 9, 2006 - 05:45 am
An article about the ANIMAL MIND.

Robby

Bubble
September 9, 2006 - 05:58 am
Jane Goodall in Congo and Dian Fossey in Rwanda did a lot of research on the chimps and showed how close they are to humans.

Like the Neanderthals, they lack the physical proper built of larynx to manage speech like Homo sapiens.

Mallylee
September 9, 2006 - 11:19 am
A wild surmise about apes' and humans' brain sizes.

A human head is a heavy part of the body , as I learned from Tai Chi : to keep balanced the head has to be in a vertical line with the centre of gravity of the body, usually the lower abdomen.If you poke the head forward during a turn you do it clumsily or overbalance.

So my guess is that the primate had to be able to walk erect before the skull became heavy enough to contain a large brain. The erect posture was suited to both reasoning and predicting ability, and being able to look around by turning the head . The eye sockets were both facing in one limited direction, unlike the eye sockets of quadrupeds that give wide- angled views, being on the sides of the skull.If the cranium were not so developed as in humans, the eye sockets could be less hidden by the frontal bones of the skull.

The limited vision of the animal with large cranium is viable only in combination with the power of reason and prediction. The two attributes are interdependent.

The original mutant(s) that had the combination of cranial development and erect posture possibly was better able to survive as a hunter in a co-operative manner with other individuals. She(they) may have been more powerful leaders of co-operative food acquisition.

Natural selection limits as well as facilitates.

Bubble
September 9, 2006 - 11:33 am
The owl... looks forward, perches erect, can turn its head better than I can. Is that why it is the symbol of wisdom? lol

robert b. iadeluca
September 9, 2006 - 12:03 pm
Some very good points, Mallylee.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2006 - 07:25 am
"But in all the foregoing cases the insects in their original state no doubt presented some rude and accidental resemblance to an object commonly found in the stations frequented by them.

"Nor is this at all improbable, considering the almost infinite number of surrounding objects and the diversity in form and colour of the hosts of insects which exist.

"As some rude resemblance is necessary for the first start, we can understand how it is that the larger and higher animals do not -- with the exception, as far as I know, of one fish -- resemble for the sake of protection special objects, but only the surface which commonly surrounds them, and this chiefly in colour.

"Assuming that an insect originally happened to resemble in some degree a dead twig or a decayed leaf, and that it varied slightly in many ways, then all the variations which rendered the insect at all more like any such object, and thus favoured its escape, would be preserved. Other variations would be neglected and ultimately lost. If they rendered the insect at all less like the imitated object, they would be eliminated.

"There would indeed be force in Mr. Mivart's objection, if we were to attempt to account for the above resemblances, independently of natural selection, through mere fluctuating variability. As the case stands there is none.

"Nor can I see any force in Mr. Mivart's difficulty with respect to "the last touches of perfection in the mimicry" -- as in the case given by Mr. Wallace, of a walking-stick insect (Ceroxylus laceratus) -- which resembles "a stick grown over by a creeping moss or jungermannia."

"So close was this resemblance, that a native Dyak maintained that the foliaceous excrescences were really moss.

"Insects are preyed on by birds and other enemies, whose sight is probably sharper than ours. Every grade in resemblance which aided an insect to escape notice or detection, would tend towards its preservation. The more perfect the resemblance so much the better for the insect.

"Considering the nature of the differences between the species in the group which includes the above Ceroxylus, there is nothing improbable in this insect having varied in the irregularities on its surface, and in these having become more or less green-coloured.

"In every group the characters which differ in the several species are the most apt to vary. The generic characters, or those common to all the species, are the most constant."

Darwin says that the larger and higher animals do not resemble for the sake of protection special objects -- but only the surface which surrounds them.

Do you folks agree with that?

Robby

Mallylee
September 10, 2006 - 09:58 am
Robby I cannot think of any exceptions at all

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2006 - 10:23 am
Now I wonder why that might be. Would size have something to do with it? Couldn't a mole, for instance, be seen as just a lump of mud?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2006 - 04:32 pm
"The Greenland whale is one of the most wonderful animals in the world, and the baleen, or whale-bone, one of its greatest peculiarities.

"The baleen consists of a row, on each side of the upper jaw, of about 300 plates or laminae, which stand close together transversely to the longer axis of the mouth. Within the main row there are some subsidiary rows.

"The extremities and inner margins of all the plates are frayed into stiff bristles, which clothe the whole gigantic palate, and serve to strain or sift the water, and thus to secure the minute prey on which these great animals subsist.

"The middle and longest lamina in the Greenland whale is ten, twelve, or even fifteen feet in length. In the different species of cetaceans there are gradations in length -- the middle lamina being in one species, according to Scoresby, four feet -- in another three -- in another eighteen inches -- and in the Balaenoptera rostrata only about nine inches in length.

"The quality of the whale-bone also differs in the different species.

"With respect to the baleen, Mr. Mivart remarks that if it "had once attained such a size and development as to be at all useful, then its preservation and augmentation within serviceable limits would be promoted by natural selection alone.

"But how to obtain the beginning of such useful development?" In answer, it may be asked, why should not the early progenitors of the whales with baleen have possessed a mouth constructed something like the lamellated beak of a duck?

"Ducks, like whales, subsist by sifting the mud and water. The family has sometimes been called Criblatores, or sifters.

"I hope that I may not be misconstrued into saying that the progenitors of whales did actually possess mouths lamellated like the beak of a duck.

"I wish only to show that this is not incredible, and that the immense plates of baleen in the Greenland whale might have been developed from such lamellae by finely graduated steps, each of service to its possessor."

As we continue to read Darwin, I'm almost coming to the conclusion that anything is possible!

Robby

Bubble
September 11, 2006 - 01:50 am
There is a place in Africa ( an island?) where 90% of the population has 6 toes on each foot and many with an extra hand finger. I wonder if they have a better balance that way and that is why it is reccuring.

Sorry, I can't remember where I read that article (reader's Digest? National Geo Mag?) a few years ago.

Mallylee
September 11, 2006 - 03:00 am
Is baleen what they used to insert into the seams of corsets to make them rigid? Are we as a species becoming more moral or less moral?

Bubble
September 11, 2006 - 03:27 am
Yes, Mallylee, it was, until they invented plastic to take its place. It was also used in the corner of collars for men's shirts.

robert b. iadeluca
September 11, 2006 - 04:45 am
"The beak of a shoveller-duck (Spatula elypedta) is a more beautiful and complex structure than the mouth of a whale. The upper mandible is furnished on each side (in the specimen examined by me) with a row or comb formed of 188 thin, elastic lamellae, obliquely bevelled so as to be pointed, and placed transversely to the longer axis of the mouth.

"They arise from the palate, and are attached by flexible membrane to the sides of the mandible. Those standing towards the middle are the longest, being about one-third of an inch in length, and they project .14 of an inch beneath the edge.

"At their bases there is a short subsidiary row of obliquely transverse lamellae.

"In these several respects they resemble the plates of baleen in the mouth of a whale. But towards the extremity of the beak they differ much, as they project inwards, instead of straight downwards.

"The entire head of the shoveller, though incomparably less bulky, is about one-eighteenth of the length of the head of a moderately large Balaenoptera rostrata, in which species the baleen is only nine inches long.

"If we were to make the head of the shoveller as long as that of the Balaenoptera, the lamellae would be six inches in length -- that is, two-thirds of the length of the baleen in this species of whale. The lower mandible of the shoveller-duck is furnished with lamellae of equal length with those above, but finer.

"In being thus furnished it differs conspicuously from the lower jaw of a whale, which is destitute of baleen. On the other hand the extremities of these lower lamellae are frayed into fine bristly points, so that they thus curiously resemble the plates of baleen.

"In the genus Prion, a member of the distinct family of the petrels, the upper mandible alone is furnished with lamellae, which are well developed and project beneath the margin; so that the beak of this bird resembles in this respect the mouth of a whale.

"From the highly developed structure of the shoveller's beak we may proceed -- as I have learnt from information and specimens sent to me by Mr. Salvin -- without any great break, as far as fitness for sifting is concerned, through the beak of the Merganetta armata, and in some respects through that of the Aix sponsa, to the beak of the common duck.

"In this latter species, the lamellae are much coarser than in the shoveller, and are firmly attached to the sides of the mandible. They are only about 50 in number on each side, and do not project at all beneath the margin.

"They are square-topped, and are edged with translucent hardish tissue, as if for crushing food. The edges of the lower mandible are crossed by numerous fine ridges, which project very little.

"Although the beak is thus very inferior as a sifter to that of the shoveller, yet this bird, as every one knows, constantly uses it for this purpose. There are other species, as I hear from Mr. Salvin, in which the lamellae are considerably less developed than in the common duck.

"I do not know whether they use their beaks for sifting the water."

I know nothing about ducks and whales and don't intend to study to the point of Darwin's knowledge so I'll take his word for it that -- believe it or not -- there are similarites in the structures of whales and ducks.

Robby

Bubble
September 11, 2006 - 05:47 am
That means similarities between birds an mammals. Inter species.

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2006 - 03:01 am
"Turning to another group of the same family -- in the Egyptian goose (Chenalopex) the beak closely resembles that of the common ducks.

"But the lamellae are not so numerous, nor so distinct from each other, nor do they project so much inwards. Yet this goose, as I am informed by Mr. E. Bartlett, "uses its bill like a duck by throwing the water out at the corners."

"Its chief food, however, is grass, which it crops like the common goose.

"In this latter bird, the lamellae of the upper mandible are much coarser than in the common duck, almost confluent, about 27 in number on each side, and terminating upwards in teeth-like knobs. The palate is also covered with hard rounded knobs. The edges of the lower mandible are serrated with teeth much more prominent, coarser, and sharper than in the duck.

"The common goose does not sift the water, but uses its beak exclusively for tearing or cutting herbage, for which purpose it is so well fitted, that it can crop grass closer than almost any other animal. There are other species of geese, as I hear from Mr. Bartlett, in which the lamellae are less developed than in the common goose.

"We thus see that a member of the duck family, with a beak constructed like that of the common goose and adapted solely for grazing, or even a member with a beak having less well-developed lamellae, might be converted by small changes into a species like the Egyptian goose -- this into one like the common duck -- and, lastly, into one like the shoveller, provided with a beak almost exclusively adapted for sifting the water. For this bird could hardly use any part of its beak, except the hooked tip, for seizing or tearing solid food.

"The beak of a goose, as I may add, might also be converted by small changes into one provided with prominent, recurved teeth, like those of the merganser (a member of the same family), serving for the widely different purpose of securing live fish."

Darwin says that "a member of the duck family might be converted by small changes into a species like a goose." In other words, one species can be changed into another.

Robby

marni0308
September 12, 2006 - 08:03 am
Aaarrghhhhh! It's time, me hearties, to sign up for the discussion of The Mutiny on Board H.M.S. Bounty! This book is Captain Bligh's own written account of what happened on the mutinous voyage and afterward when he and some of his crew were set adrift in shark-infested waters.

The discussion begins officially on November 1. There's plenty of grog, salt pork, and duff aboard ship waiting for you, so sign up here:

patwest, "---Mutiny on Board H.M.S. Bounty, The ~ William Bligh ~ Proposed for Nov. 1st" #, 11 Sep 2006 2:26 pm

Marni

robert b. iadeluca
September 13, 2006 - 03:32 am
"The mammary glands are common to the whole class of mammals, and are indispensable for their existence. They must, therefore, have been developed at an extremely remote period, and we can know nothing positively about their manner of development.

"Mr. Mivart asks: "Is it conceivable that the young of any animal was ever saved from destruction by accidentally sucking a drop of scarcely nutritious fluid from an accidentally hypertrophied cutaneous gland of its mother? And even if one was so, what chance was there of the perpetuation of such a variation?"

"But the case is not here put fairly. It is admitted by most evolutionists that mammals are descended from a marsupial form. If so, the mammary glands will have been at first developed within the marsupial sack.

"In the case of the fish (Hippocampus) the eggs are hatched, and the young are reared for a time, within a sack of this nature. An American naturalist, Mr. Lockwood, believes from what he has seen of the development of the young, that they are nourished by a secretion from the cutaneous glands of the sack.

"Now with the early progenitors of mammals, almost before they deserved to be thus designated, is it not at least possible that the young might have been similarly nourished? And in this case, the individuals which secreted a fluid -- in some degree or manner the most nutritious, so as to partake of the nature of milk -- would in the long run have reared a larger number of well-nourished offspring, than would the individuals which secreted a poorer fluid.

"Thus the cutaneous glands, which are the homologues of the mammary glands, would have been improved or rendered more effective. It accords with the widely extended principle of specialisation -- that the glands over a certain space of the sack should have become more highly developed than the remainder -- and they would then have formed a breast -- but at first without a nipple as we see in the Ornithorhynchus, at the base of the mammalian series.

"Through what agency the glands over a certain space became more highly specialised than the others, I will not pretend to decide, whether in part through compensation of growth, the effects of use, or of natural selection.

"The development of the mammary glands would have been of no service, and could not have been effected through natural selection, unless the young at the same time were able to partake of the secretion.

"There is no greater difficulty in understanding how young mammals have instinctively learnt to suck the breast, than in understanding how unhatched chickens have learnt to break the egg-shell by tapping against it with their specially adapted beaks -- or how a few hours after leaving the shell they have learnt to pick up grains of food.

"In such cases the most probable solution seems to be, that the habit was at first acquired by practice at a more advanced age, and afterwards transmitted to the offspring at an earlier age.

"But the young kangaroo is said not to suck, only to cling to the nipple of its mother, who has the power of injecting milk into the mouth of her helpless, half-formed offspring. On this head,

"Mr. Mivart remarks: "Did no special provision exist, the young one must infallibly be choked by the intrusion of the milk into the windpipe. But there is a special provision. The larynx is so elongated that it rises up into the posterior end of the nasal passage, and is thus enabled to give free entrance to the air for the lungs, while the milk passes harmlessly on each side of this elongated larynx, and so safely attains the gullet behind it."

"Mr. Mivart then asks how did natural selection remove in the adult kangaroo -- and in most other mammals on the assumption that they are descended from a marsupial form) -- "this at least perfectly innocent and harmless structure?"

"It may be suggested in answer that the voice, which is certainly of high importance to many animals, could hardly have been used with full force as long as the larynx entered the nasal passage. Professor Flower has suggested to me that this structure would have greatly interfered with an animal swallowing solid food."

Women's breasts evolving from the sac of male seahorses?

Robby

Bubble
September 13, 2006 - 03:37 am
I always thought that the eggs and elvers were held in the Hyppocampus mouth and so he could not eat until they were totally viable. He is the paragon of fatherly care.

Mippy
September 13, 2006 - 07:26 am
Good morning,
I know we are supposed to pretend we are living in Darwin's age,
but I'd like to note that this descent from marsupials is not Darwin's best guess.
Modern DNA evidence doesn't confirm this. Marsupials and mammals are two
separate branches of the evolutionary tree.

Mallylee
September 13, 2006 - 09:16 am
I cannot imagine which organ other than skin could possibly have given suck to young

Adrbri
September 13, 2006 - 10:38 am
Seahorse, common name for certain small fishes of the family Syngnathidae, inhabiting warm waters but sometimes found as far north as Cape Cod. The elongated head and snout of a seahorse, flexed at right angles to the body, suggest those of a horse. Members of different species range in size from .6 to 8 in. (1.6–20 cm); all feed on minute organisms. Protected by thin bony plates that are derivatives of the scales found in most fishes, the seahorse swims weakly in an upright position by means of rapid, hummingbirdlike beats of its fins; at rest it curls its thin, prehensile tail around seaweed. Some seahorses have deceptive leaflike appendages, and others are poisonous. While linked in the mating embrace (during which the seahorses utter musical sounds) the female forces the eggs into a pouch on the underside of the male, where they are fertilized and where they remain, feeding on nutrients provided by the vascular lining of the pouch, until they are expelled as miniature versions of the adult. The pipefishes, belonging to the same family, comprise about 50 species, whose members range in size from 4 to 12 in. (10–30 cm) long. They are slightly more fishlike in appearance and are able to change color, but have the long snout and unusual breeding habits of the seahorse. Seahorses are classified in the phylum Chordata, phylum of animals having a notochord, or dorsal stiffening rod, as the chief internal skeletal support at some stage of their development.

The hippocampus is a part of the brain located inside the temporal lobe (humans have two hippocampi, one in each side of the brain). It forms a part of the limbic system and plays a part in memory and spatial navigation. The name derives from its curved shape in coronal sections of the brain, which resembles a seahorse (Greek: hippokampos).

Bubble
September 13, 2006 - 10:44 am
Thanks Adrbri! I should have researched and not trust my memory of school days.

I kept for years two dried Hippocampi I bought in Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco, they looked so exotic. In my mind I related them to dragons and unicorns and imagine elves riding on them through the waves. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
September 13, 2006 - 03:27 pm
We have arrived at the 1000th posting (actually 2000 total so far) and the "powers that be" are about ready to turn the page for us. When you get there, be sure to click onto "Check Susbcription."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 13, 2006 - 03:34 pm
"We will now turn for a short space to the lower divisions of the animal kingdom.

"The Echinodermata (star-fishes, sea-urchins, &c.) are furnished with remarkable organs, called pedicellariae, which consist, when well developed, of a tridactyle forceps- that is, of one formed of three serrated arms, neatly fitting together and placed on the summit of a flexible stem, moved by muscles.

"These forceps can firmly seize hold of any object. Alexander Agassiz has seen an Echinus or sea-urchin rapidly passing particles of excrement from forceps to forceps down certain lines of its body, in order that its shell should not be fouled.

"But there is no doubt that besides removing dirt of all kinds, they subserve other functions; and one of these apparently is defence.

"With respect to these organs, Mr. Mivart, as on so many previous occasions, asks: "What would be the utility of the first rudimentary beginnings of such structures. How could such incipient buddings have ever preserved the life of a single Echinus?"

"He adds, "Not even the sudden development of the snapping action could have been beneficial without the freely moveable stalk, nor could the latter have been efficient without the snapping jaws. Yet no minute merely indefinite variations could simultaneously evolve these complex co-ordinations of structure. To deny this seems to do no less than to affirm a startling paradox."

"Paradoxical as this may appear to Mr. Mivart, tridactyle forcepses -- immovably fixed at the base, but capable of a snapping action -- certainly exist on some starfishes. This is intelligible if they serve, at least in part, as a means of defence.

"Mr. Agassiz, to whose great kindness I am indebted for much information on the subject, informs me that there are other star-fishes, in which one of the three arms of the forceps is reduced to a support for the other two -- and again, other genera in which the third arm is completely lost.

"In Echinoneus, the shell is described by M. Perrier as bearing two kinds of pedicellariae, one resembling those of Echinus, and the other those of Spatangus. Such cases are always interesting as affording the means of apparently sudden transitions, through the abortion of one of the two states of an organ."

Any comments about these starfishes?

Robby

Mallylee
September 14, 2006 - 01:22 am
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1871842,00.html

Bubble
September 14, 2006 - 03:28 am
Thanks Mallylee, how fascinating.

robert b. iadeluca
September 14, 2006 - 03:32 am
"He who believes that some ancient form was transformed suddenly through an internal force or tendency into, for instance, one furnished with wings, will be almost compelled to assume -- in opposition to all analogy -- that many individuals varied simultaneously.

"It cannot be denied that such abrupt and great changes of structure are widely different from those which most species apparently have undergone.

"He will further be compelled to believe that many structures beautifully adapted to all the other parts of the same creature and to the surrounding conditions, have been suddenly produced; and of such complex and wonderful co-adaptations. He will not be able to assign a shadow of an explanation.

"He will be forced to admit that these great and sudden transformations have left no trace of their action on the embryo. To admit all this is, as it seems to me, to enter into the realms of miracle, and to leave those of Science.

Darwin is very clear here.

Robby

Bubble
September 14, 2006 - 03:45 am
Darwin is so logical that there is no way to dispute his conclusions. Amazingly, those who do that probably never read him in depth.

robert b. iadeluca
September 15, 2006 - 03:02 am
Chapter Eight

Instinct

robert b. iadeluca
September 15, 2006 - 03:05 am
"Many instincts are so wonderful that their development will probably appear to the reader a difficulty sufficient to overthrow my whole theory.

"I may here premise that I have nothing to do with the origin of the mental powers, any more than I have with that of life itself. We are concerned only with the diversities of instinct and of the other mental faculties in animals of the same class.

"I will not attempt any definition of instinct.

"It would be easy to show that several distinct mental actions are commonly embraced by this term. But every one understands what is meant, when it is said that instinct impels the cuckoo to migrate and to lay her eggs in other birds' nests.

"An action, which we ourselves require experience to enable us to perform -- when performed by an animal, more especially by a very young one, without experience -- and when performed by many individuals in the same way, without their knowing for what purpose it is performed -- is usually said to be instinctive.

"But I could show that none of these characters are universal. A little dose of judgment or reason, as Pierre Huber expresses it, often comes into play, even with animals low in the scale of nature."

This chapter should be fun!

Robby

Malryn
September 15, 2006 - 04:12 am

I love you, ROBBY. Your enthusiasm is catching even when I'm feeling crummy.

Mal

Mallylee
September 15, 2006 - 07:08 am
I wonder if I can keep myself inside Darwin's times and comsciousness, because I expect that neurophysiology has made such advance, that had Darwin been living and working today, he woukld not have written that theories 'instinct' would not partake of natural selection theory

Scrawler
September 15, 2006 - 09:28 am
As I sat by the pool on Monday in 80 degree temperature I watched as a huge flock of geese flew over going south for the winter. It was a marvelous sight and it is obvious that they knew something I didn't because on Tuesday it started to rain and the temperature dropped. I almost wish I could go with them.

patwest
September 16, 2006 - 08:14 am
---Origin of Species ~ Charles Darwin ~ Part 3

This one is now read only and will be archived in a few days.