Welcome! to a first for the Books, the preparation of a discussion entirely in public, and what a discussion it IS!

From time to time I'll be copying over posts from the originating History Forum which pertain to this discussion and please post here all your remarks as to how you think we should tackle this mammoth project: projected ETA February 1, 2002, something to really look forward to in the long winter months.

We're not wanting to discuss the books yet but rather our methods in arranging the subject matter, how many of the titles to read, etc. Fun decisions that need your input.

There are 6 books that are recommended for this study and two movies about Mutiny on the Bounty, the idea we had is that YOU be the Judge and/ or Jury, the two newest non fiction books seem to take issue with the movie.

We thought it would be great to look at how this man has been portrayed in history, in fiction and in the movies and compare and contrast and make our own decisions!

Stay tuned for more details and plan to join us now AND in late January, for a UNIT unlike any other experience we've had.

ginny

I've got goose pimples!

Ginny, a little nitpicking: I believe there were three (3) movies: the first had charles Laughton as Bligh and Clark Gable as Mr. Christian; the second had Trevor Howard as Capti Bligh and Marlon Brando as Mr. christian; the third had Anthony Hopkins as Capt. Bligh and Mel Gibson as Mr. christian. The only differences in the three, that I remember, is that in the second Brando kisses Trevor Howard and of course in the first movie all of the natives were covered up and in the second and third the women were bare breasted. BTW: IF you might be looking for a book or books that may only be found in Britain Ms Melissa Perkins at Foyles Booksellers is quite nice and very helpful. Her e-mail address is melissa@wgfoyle.co.uk

That painting is breathtaking! The mighty ocean and the tiny Bounty. This visually sets u p the "duel" between ship and sea so graphically. Thank you, whoever picked this one. I'll look at the other paintings, but can any of them match this one for sheer impact?

Pant puff, pufff, ok HERE I am at last with all the pertinent posts I hope and we have a LOT to decide here and oh no, Tiger Tom THREE movies?

There is so much to decide here and to get in order.

First off, let's see all your pertinent posts to date:

true?

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Tiger Tom - 08:48am Aug 9, 2001 PDT (#347 of 389)

What is True?

Mrs. Watson. Captain Bligh is a case in point. He has had a bad press. Mostly coming from a Fiction novel : "Mutiny on the Bounty" by Norduff and Hall. In that novel he is depicted as a evil, cruel sea captain who deserved the munity. Truth: He was a very kind man who got into trouble because he was kind. In an age where floggings on a ship were common (Nelson averaged three (3) a week) Bligh had only three (3) in a year. He had a temper when it came to his ship, crew and their well being. In his voyage to Tahiti he turned back at the Straits of Magellen because he thought they were too dangerous and possibly some of his crew might be killed. He sailed back across the ocean to the cape of good hope and rounded it. that AT HIS OWN EXPENSE, he had to pay the extra cost out of his own pocket. When he reached Tahiti he allowed his crew off ship. Rule in the British Navy at that time, crew were kept on board at all times never allowed off ship and two boatloads of Marines rowed around the ship to keep any sailors from jumping ship. By allowing his sailors off ship he was going against regulations. Now, when time to go back his crew boarded the ship and raised anchor. They did this knowing what they were going back to because they liked and respected Bligh. However, Mr Christian, who was Bligh's GODSON, raised a mutiny. Still the men cared enough for bligh that rather than killing him they put on a boat with a sail and some food. They expected him to sail back to Tahiti figuring they would beat him back there and be gone again by the time he arrived they having a larger faster ship. There is more but I haven't the room for it here. BTW Bligh had another mutiny againdt him when he was Governor General of Australia again for being too kind. When he died he was an Admiral. The Navy liked him too.

I am not sure how history should judge Captain Bligh. There are two principal books in the B & N catalog on the subject. From the B & N on line catalog material one at least seems to offer some support to the charge that he got a bad rap from the Northorp and Hall novels. Here are links to the B & N catalog pages for these books.

Captain Bligh’s Portable Nightmare

Captain Bligh and Mr Christian

If one does a Google search on the string, Captain Bligh there are many hits. Here is a short biographical sketch supporting the “bad rap theory:"

Vice Admiral William Bligh

I suspect quite strongly that considering the circumstances of the time at sea on sailing vessels that the Captain did get poor treatment by 20th century authors out to write a good and successful book with out too much regard for either history or the character’s reputation. This controversy illustrates my general discomfort with historical novels. In the end history will come second to the story line.

day.



******

Tiger Tom - 08:00pm Aug 9, 2001 PDT (#352 of 389)

Bligh

Harold Arnold. I believe you are aware of British Naval History. Bligh by allowing his crew to go ashore was against British Naval Regulations. While the Bounty was a "Commercial" ship it sailed under the British Navy and its regulations. Bligh was an officer in the British Navy while commanding the bounty. His crew was made up mainly, if not all, of impressed seamen who had been subjected to Naval regulations and punishments. A seamans life was very dangerous in the sailing days. Anytime a sailor had an opportunity he jumped ship and headed inland. So, Bligh by allowing his men off the ship disobeyed orders and risked having his entire crew deserting. Some actually did desert and were hid by the Natives of Tahiti, but many of those came back. The fact that a) most of the crew did NOT desert; and b) boarded the Bounty to go back to what was a hellish life in the British Navy indicates the high regard the grew held for Bligh. That regard does not go to a Cruel Monster, only to a decent, fair, captain. I doubt if bligh will get a fair hearing here in the U.S. In Britain where the log of the Bounty is, he is held in a high regard and not considered as the Monster depicted here in the U.S.

more....

The best book I ever read in my whole life was Bligh's own account of how he survived once he was thrown off the ship, I would KILL to reread the trilogy and Bligh's own book, and now are you saying there is a recent controversy?

Oh I have never been the same after reading those books and startled to death a whole cruise ship hollering about "BREAD FRUIT" once on a trip to a Carribean island, oh let's DO please read these books together, what are you all talking about, let me go back and SEEEEE!!!

I came in to say that my son greatly appreciates all the fine advice given here on the Naval war in the Mediterranean!

And found Captain BLIGH!!!

OOPS, you don't like historical novels, well maybe we could read the real thing??!!??

In Edit:

Look Look, here's a book I never heard of!! (In Edit: Well I guess not, it's just out in May 2001):



The Bounty Mutiny William Bligh Edward Christian R. D. Madison (Introduction)

Retail Price: $13.00 Our Price: $11.70



bn.com customers who bought this book also bought: Captain Bligh's Portable Nightmare: From the Bounty to Safety--4,162 Miles across the Pacific in a Rowing Boat, John Toohey In the Heart of the Sea: The Tragedy of the Whaleship Essex, Nathaniel Philbrick The Titanic Book and Submersible Model with Toy, Susan Hughes,Steve A. Santini Two Years Before the Mast, Richard Henry Dana A Night to Remember, Walter Lord

ABOUT THIS ITEM

From the Publisher "While the full story of what drove the men to revolt or what really transpired during the struggle may never be known, Penguin Classics has brought together - for the first time in one volume - all the relevant texts and documents related to a drama that has fascinated generations. Here are the full text of Bligh's Narrative of the Mutiny, the minutes of the court proceedings gathered by Edward Christian in an effort to clear his brother's name, and the highly polemic correspondence between Bligh and Christian - all amplified by Robert Madison's introduction and selection of subsequent Bounty narratives."--BOOK JACKET.

FROM THE BOOK

Table of Contents Introduction Suggestions for Further Reading A Note on the Texts Maps A Narrative of the Mutiny on Board His Majesty's Ship Bounty 1 Minutes of the Proceedings of the Court-Martial held at Portsmouth, August 12, 1792. On Ten Persons charged with Mutiny on Board His Majesty's Ship the Bounty, with an Appendix by Edward Christian 67 An Answer to Certain Assertions Contained in the Appendix to a Pamphlet 153 A Short Reply to Capt. William Bligh's Answer 183 App. A Bligh's Orders and a Description of the Breadfruit 197 App. B Lady Belcher's Account of the Pandora (1870) 205 App. C The Quarterly Review on the Bounty (1810) 213 App. D The Quarterly Review on the Bounty (1815) 215 App. E Jenny's Story (1829) 228 App. F John Adams's Story (1831)





ginny

ginny

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ginny - 11:46am Aug 11, 2001 PDT (#354 of 389) RoundTables Host--Pauline, S.C. ______Join us in our great Books & Lit sections and in Washington DC November 8-11 Doggone, here's ANOTHER new one, this one in February, 2001, this is more on one of the ones Harold has in the links above!!

Captain Bligh's Portable Nightmare: From the Bounty to Safety--4,162 Miles across the Pacific in a Rowing Boat John Toohey

From the Publisher: It is dawn, April 28, 1789. Captain William Bligh, commander of the HMS Bounty, and his eighteen men are herded by mutineers onto a twenty-three-foot launch and abandoned in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Covering 4,162 miles on the way to Java, the small boat and its men are subject to storms, illness, starvation, and attacks by islanders. Still, the journey stands as one of the greatest achievements in European seafaring history — and a personal triumph for the historically misjudged Bligh. Captain Bligh's Portable Nightmare reveals, in vivid and breathtaking detail, Bligh's astounding mapmaking skills, explores his guilt over Captain Cooks' death, and discusses the failure of the Bounty expedition. Combining extensive research with gripping storytelling, Toohey tells a compelling tale of exploration, mutiny, and survival — while reinstating Captain William Bligh as a legendary hero.

From the Critics From Publisher's Weekly - Publishers Weekly

Instead of rehashing the tale of the famed 1789 mutiny on the HMS Bounty (as done by so many historians, novelists and filmmakers), Australian historian Toohey tells the story of what happened to Capt. William Bligh after the mutiny was over. After his ejection from the Bounty, Bligh traveled halfway across the Pacific (to Java) on a cramped 23-foot launch with 18 crew members. Drawing heavily on survivors' accounts and other contemporary sources, Toohey recounts the dramatic tale of this voyage in an almost novelistic narrative, reconstructing conversations and interior monologues and capturing the terror and cunning of men facing slow death on the high seas. Like other "pro-Bligh" historians, Toohey implies that the mutiny occurred largely because Bligh's spoiled crew had trouble readjusting to navy discipline and rations after spending six months eating, sunning themselves, and having sex on Tahiti. Bligh, he argues, was not the abusive tyrant of Hollywood epics but a misunderstood perfectionist, a brilliant navigator and explorer, a family man and an empathetic personal friend to at least some men on the launch. He often seems to forget that Bligh was also an imperialist--his mission was to transport breadfruit plants from Tahiti to feed West Indies slaves; he sets Bligh's saga, only offhandedly, in the context of Britain's expanding empire, James Cook's fatal 1776 voyage to the Pacific (on which Bligh served as cartographer) and European rivalries. Still, this fiercely lyrical, stylish chronicle is likely to resurrect debate over the mutiny, Bligh's character and his place in history. B&w illus., maps. (Mar.)

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Tiger Tom - 12:13pm Aug 11, 2001 PDT (#355 of 389)

Bligh

Ginny, now I am going to find those books and read them. I guess that Barnes and Noble has them? BTW, Bligh navigated that open boat with just two legs of what he needed to properly navigate: A Compass, Sextant, and Chronometer, I don't remember which one he was missing. Also, he had no charts. However, what he did was by dead reasoning. I have heard that it would be similar to one of us driving from New York to Los Angeles blindfolded. In addition he kept order on that boat. Bligh was the foremost navigator of his age in the British or any other Navy. Some of the charts he made around the Hawaiian Islands are still in use.

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Ginny - 12:16pm Aug 11, 2001 PDT (#356 of 389) RoundTables Host--Pauline, S.C. ______Join us in our great Books & Lit sections and in Washington DC November 8-11 I've ordered them, too, Tiger Tom, maybe others might want to join us, here in the Books all we need is one Books Discussion Leader and two others who say they might like to read it.

Still looking for the old Bligh book, it was a corker and just left you with your mouth hanging open.

Yes those are on B&N the SeniorNet B&N store which one can get by going to the top of the page and clicking on Bookstore.

In addition they are having free shipping if you order two or more.

IN addition if you have the Reader's Advantage card you get more off, it's a good deal and SN gets 7 percent of the price.

ginny

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Tiger Tom - 12:26pm Aug 11, 2001 PDT (#357 of 389)

Books

Ginny, you referred to a triology, I don't believe I have read that or the old Bligh Book. I would be willing to discuss the Book(s) if others are willing also. I have always thought that Bligh got a raw deal from Norduff and hall. I understand why those two wrote the book that they did as no one would buy a book about a kindly sea captain they would buy a "Red meat" book about a nasty mean, etc. sea captain. As far as the movies go, Moviet Studios haven't been known for Historical correctness or doing an research. They did, though, follow the book fairly well. If you remember the name(s) of the trilogy and the old Bligh book let me know. I haven't enough books and still have a few dollars left of the tax rebate. Thanks, The Tiger

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Ginny - 01:33pm Aug 11, 2001 PDT (#358 of 389) RoundTables Host--Pauline, S.C. ______Join us in our great Books & Lit sections and in Washington DC November 8-11 Hey, The Tiger, we might get up an entire unit on the thing, followed by watching a video of the movie! Let's publicize it and see...let's see...let's throw out a buoy and see if it floats!

GREAT!@

Thanks,

ginny

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tiger Tom - 03:26pm Aug 11, 2001 PDT (#359 of 389)

Bligh

Ginny,fine. Still need the titles of those books: the trilogy and Bligh's book that you said you had read many moons ago. I have been aware of the Norduff and Hull book: "Mutiny on the Bounty" but I guess they may have written more on that subject. I have, from time to time, read articles on the Mutiny, bligh, the Mutineers, etc. as with all things hitorical these articles are seen through the Prism of the author's personal attitute toward the Subject. Which means one gets a variety of viewpoints and "Facts" are all over the place.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ginny - 04:52pm Aug 11, 2001 PDT (#360 of 389) RoundTables Host--Pauline, S.C. ______Join us in our great Books & Lit sections and in Washington DC November 8-11 Tiger Tom, the two titles I was thinking of were Captain Bligh's Portable Nightmare: From the Bounty to Safety--4,162 Miles across the Pacific in a Rowing Boat by John Toohey and The Bounty Mutiny William Bligh Edward Christian R. D. Madison (Introduction)

We really need to find out if Bligh's own book, which I am still looking for, is included in this new issue of The Bounty Mutiny, it appears it is a compendium of original writings:

From the Publisher "While the full story of what drove the men to revolt or what really transpired during the struggle may never be known, Penguin Classics has brought together - for the first time in one volume - all the relevant texts and documents related to a drama that has fascinated generations. Here are the full text of Bligh's Narrative of the Mutiny, the minutes of the court proceedings gathered by Edward Christian in an effort to clear his brother's name, and the highly polemic correspondence between Bligh and Christian - all amplified by Robert Madison's introduction and selection of subsequent Bounty narratives."--BOOK JACKET.

FROM THE BOOK

Table of Contents Introduction Suggestions for Further Reading A Note on the Texts Maps A Narrative of the Mutiny on Board His Majesty's Ship Bounty 1 Minutes of the Proceedings of the Court-Martial held at Portsmouth, August 12, 1792. On Ten Persons charged with Mutiny on Board His Majesty's Ship the Bounty, with an Appendix by Edward Christian 67 An Answer to Certain Assertions Contained in the Appendix to a Pamphlet 153 A Short Reply to Capt. William Bligh's Answer 183 App. A Bligh's Orders and a Description of the Breadfruit 197 App. B Lady Belcher's Account of the Pandora (1870) 205 App. C The Quarterly Review on the Bounty (1810) 213 App. D The Quarterly Review on the Bounty (1815) 215 App. E Jenny's Story (1829) 228 App. F John Adams's Story (1831)

I can't tell from that, let me keep looking for the Bligh.

Thanks for your interest, if we can get a quorum we might do a complete unit in the winter and follow it up with viewing the movie, sounds like fun, still looking!

ginny

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ginny - 04:54pm Aug 11, 2001 PDT (#361 of 389) RoundTables Host--Pauline, S.C. ______Join us in our great Books & Lit sections and in Washington DC November 8-11 trilogy

The trilogy I referred to was as you surmised, the Nordoff and Hall:

The Bounty Trilogy: Comprising the Three Volumes, Mutiny on the Bounty, Men against the Sea and Pitcairn's Island Charles Nordhoff James Norman Hall

I wonder, depending of course on how many people are interested, I wonder if it might be interesting to compare THEM, too? ??

They are great reading!

But how factual I have no clue.

ginny

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Harold Arnold - 05:38pm Aug 11, 2001 PDT (#362 of 389) Discussion Leader--Books I'm thinking out loud, but a Bligh discussion built around the two in print non-fiction books and the Northrop & Hall trilogy while an ambitious undertaking would certainly be an interesting one. I read the trilogy years ago and have my own VCR of the 1930's Charles Loughton/Clark Gable movie. Perhaps in our discussion the books might be thought of as evidence presented to a jury. The discussion participants would be the jury who from the evidence from the books would decide- did Bligh deserves the rap laid on him by the novels?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tiger Tom - 07:34pm Aug 11, 2001 PDT (#363 of 389)

Books

Ginny, thanks for the titles. That is five (5) books plus the Bligh book when you remember its name. Lot of reading, thankfully. Ginny, harold. Like your ideas about a discussion of these books, bligh and Bligh's reputation, deserved or undeserved. Sounds very interesting. You two have the advantage of me in that you have read the intire trilogy. However, I think that I can catch up on that. The Library should still have those books or can lay hands on them. The other two I will be ordering from B&N. Let me know what your ideas of the discussion and who would be discussion leader, etc. Harold that Jury idea is good. Tom

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- betty gregory - 12:42am Aug 12, 2001 PDT (#364 of 389)

Reporting for Jury Duty

Having been a Patrick O'Brian fan for so long, and through his 20 book series, having learned about mutiny, breadfruit, navigation, difficulties of sea life, tension between those in charge and those inscripted against their will (sometimes) to serve, I would love to read these new (and old?) books on Bligh. That old one you liked so much, Ginny, the one written by Bligh about his experiences after the mutiny, the trip to Java, etc.,....that sounds especially good. I assume it's out of print and we'd have to scrounge around on the internet finding old copies. Next winter sounds about right.

Are others balking because 5 books sound like too much? What if the first 3 were optional, or for a pre-discussion discussion? Or, two separate discussions, running back to back. Just thinking out loud.

betty

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mrs. Watson - 06:13am Aug 12, 2001 PDT (#365 of 389)

We could have people reading the books, but taking "sides". Bligh's defenders vs. Christian's supporters. Pragmatism vs. romance. Reading some or all of the sources, and illustrating our viewpoints with the texts. Those who choose not to align themselves could then act as "jury", with, maybe, a "judge" to decide on points of order. Sort of like a mock trial? Ginny, stimulating SeniorNet to new heights again!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ginny - 07:12am Aug 12, 2001 PDT (#366 of 389) RoundTables Host--Pauline, S.C. ______Join us in our great Books & Lit sections and in Washington DC November 8-11 Oh golly, how exciting this all is, 5 books!!!!! Five books and a house torn UPSIDE down looking for the Bligh out of print....FIVE books, but wow, a QUORUM?? THANK you Harold, Tiger Tom Betty and Mrs. Watson!!!

We have a quorum, and no, Tiger Tom, we'll have to reread the Trilogy right along with you (all I remember is...hahahah...breadfruit!)

Oh yes, how exciting it is to read all of your comments, oh yes, wonderful angle Harold, what do you all think, when to do this, let's aim for January, is that too long off, we've got that John Adams book in three months and everybody is talking about it?

HOW to do this?

I mean how to arrange this? What to read first? Let's get the thing organized, I had forgotten the old Mutiny movie, how many are there?? hmmmmmm...

Hey, this is so fun!!!

ginny WHEEEEEE?????????

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tiger Tom - 08:11am Aug 12, 2001 PDT (#367 of 389)

Bligh, Books, Movies

Ginny, Last things first: I believe I know of three (3) movies: first was Charles Laughten, clark Gable; second was Marlond Brando and Trevor Howard; last was the Mel Gibson, Anthony Hopkins version. All three pretty much followed the Norduff and Hall book. January sounds fine to me. I will have to read the books and digest them a bit. I too think that the book by Bligh would be VERY interesting. I hope you can remember the title: there is a Booksellers in London: "Foyles Booksellers" which may be able to lend a hand finding that book and perhaps others published in England that could shed a little more light from the British viewpoint. I am not sure but the Log of the bounty may be in print somewhere. I believe that it had been found on the island. Yes, lets get this organized. Any ideas? from anyone.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Harold Arnold - 08:59am Aug 12, 2001 PDT (#368 of 389) Discussion Leader--Books I'll go by B & N this evening after I leave my work at the ITC and see if they have the two books in their catalog. If yes I'll buy them and report. If not I will order them from the catalog.

The Bounty trilogy is available in the B & N catalog as paperback for $18.95 (all thre books).

I may have a facmile copy of the bounty log, or was that the log of another voyage. I will have to check. In any case the old 18th century handwritten text was very hard for me to read. For that reason I did not get much out of it. Oh where, Oh where can it be!

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11:06am Aug 12, 2001 PDT (#369 of 389)

January at the earliest. I will have to make a serious adjustment inmy reading to fit John Adams and Bligh both in. I guess I know what my lunch hours will be filled with for the next several months!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ginny - 11:26am Aug 12, 2001 PDT (#370 of 389) RoundTables Host--Pauline, S.C. ______Join us in our great Books & Lit sections and in Washington DC November 8-11 Oh won't this be exciting, tho? We might just plan this one out in the open, what a joy to look forward to in the cold winter months and how SMART we'll all be when it's over? hahahahahaa

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Here is a wonderful post of a WWII book in the Suggestion Box, I've taken the liberty of moving it over here in the hopes of enticing Williewoody here:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- williewoody - 10:18am Aug 12, 2001 PDT (#407 of 408) Woodlands, Texas Inside of me is a much younger person wondering what the heck happened.

Back again after a trip to the hot north woods of Wisconsin. While there I finished a book titled IN HARMS WAY by Doug Stanton, which I found hard to lay down. It is the very interesting story of the sinking of our Cruiser Indianapolis in the last days of WWII. It was the ship that carried the atomic bomb to the island of Tinian for its final run to Hiroshima. It's heart wrentching story of the 300 survivors, and the after effects of their experience is a story I really never knew, even though I was right there on Tinian at the time. I would like to suggest it as a book for discussion in the future.

I last participated in the discussion on Stephen Ambroses latest book,"Nothing Like it in the World", and occasionally look in on American Democracy by D'Toqueville. and I look forward to the John Adams discussion.

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That John Adams discussion is going to be a whopper, and it just proves that history is NOT dead nor uninteresting!

ginny

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ginny - 11:30am Aug 12, 2001 PDT (#371 of 389) RoundTables Host--Pauline, S.C. ______Join us in our great Books & Lit sections and in Washington DC November 8-11 So far....

Tiger Tom asked how we might set this up, here are some questions we might want to address so far at least while we're gathering folks who might be interested:

Perhaps in our discussion the books might be thought of as evidence presented to a jury. The discussion participants would be the jury who from the evidence from the books would decide- did Bligh deserves the rap laid on him by the novels? ---Harold---

We could have people reading the books, but taking "sides". Bligh's defenders vs. Christian's supporters. Pragmatism vs. romance. Reading some or all of the sources, and illustrating our viewpoints with the texts. Those who choose not to align themselves could then act as "jury", with, maybe, a "judge" to decide on points of order. Sort of like a mock trial? ---Mrs. Watson---

Are others balking because 5 books sound like too much? What if the first 3 were optional, or for a pre-discussion discussion? Or, two separate discussions, running back to back. Just thinking out loud. ---Betty---

It's actually six books, but a couple of them are very slim and hard to put down, but it IS 6 books, we've not had a "Unit" before, maybe we could entice one of the *(living) hahahaah authors in?

Why ever not?

ginny

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Harold Arnold - 08:07pm Aug 12, 2001 PDT (#372 of 389) Discussion Leader--Books What could I have been thinking of when I wrote in message #368 that my reprint of an 18th century ship’s log was the Bounty's log. The Bounty never got back to England. It must have been another ship log.

B & N did not have the Books in stock, but I put both on order and should have them by the end of the week. I ran across another book in the B & N catalog that might be better than the one centered on the cruse in the open boat to the Dutch islands after Bligh left the Bounty. This book is, Sam McKinney, "The Whole Story of the Mutiny Aboard HMS Bounty," 208 pp ISBN 0920663648. I will look for more on this book and report back.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- betty gregory - 09:39pm Aug 12, 2001 PDT (#373 of 389)

Ginny (or someone), could you list all six books (in list form). Please.

The prosecutor-defender-jury idea sounds like great fun, but I fear most of us (including me) are too new to this subject to be anything but jury. Also, I think I would rather everyone be on an equal footing without any designations of experts (prosecutor, etc.). Maybe I'm off down an unintended path here and don't quite understand the suggestion...wouldn't be the first time. Finally, unless our numbers grow beyond usual group size, the experts might outnumber the jury.....in which case (grin grin), no thank you to jury duty.

This should be easy to promote, don't you think? Such a well known bad guy turns out to be...maybe a good guy? Or, maybe not. Come help us decide, etc.,etc. And, actually, don't you think that someone could decide that the last two books (whichever) are the ones worth reading and joining in to discuss? Most, though, once the interest is stimulated, would probably go along with whatever is listed.

Does it have to be six books? Just asking. Couldn't we pick the critical 4 or 3, then have the remaining 2 or 3 be "supplementary" reading?

One book...moderate interest, but this one sounds too good to pass up.

Two books...History usually isn't my thing, but I'd like to know if he "did it," sounds like a good mystery. I saw the movie.

Four books...Have always wanted to know more about Bligh, love nautical history, great idea to discuss multiple books in one discussion, when do we start?

Six books....obsessed, have just finished the first two, nautical history is my favorite reading, why do we have to wait until winter? Bligh was a lousy captain...should never have been in the military.

-----------------------------------------------------

You know, reading multiple books on the same subject does not automatically mean extended discussion time. I was just thinking that dragging this out might be terribly frustrating. I was picturing the point at which I've just finished reading 6 books on this, then the discussion begins and I've got to go back in my mind to the first book and work up interest to talk about what was going on (in the book and in my thinking) BEFORE I'd read five more books??? So, help me out here. What format would work best? Discuss two books for two weeks, then take two weeks off to read the next two, then discuss those for two weeks? Etc.???

betty

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- betty gregory - 09:54pm Aug 12, 2001 PDT (#374 of 389)

Is there a natural theoretical/political split in the books? His side vs. their side? Two separate discussions? With maybe a pause in between for reading? Still just throwing out ideas.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mrs. Watson - 07:48am Aug 13, 2001 PDT (#375 of 389)

Betty: Perhaps I was thinking along the lines of examining the events, with the different books being used to illustrate them, rather than a linear discussion of book 1, book 2, etc. To me, we are looking at the question of Bligh--did he get a bad rap? Is his "defense" by the Brits self serving? Were the mutineers merely hedonistic "kids" who had nothing to lose? Seems like we won't get answers in any one book, and reading all six, as you say, can be more confusing than clarifying. But it is a fascinating puzzle, and I am hooked so what method will work for me? Since I have trouble remembering last week, let along months, I must find a focus and construct my logic around that. Usually, I ask, where do I want to wind up, then work backward from that. My idea of a "trial" was not meant to pit expert against expert, but to allow myself to seek that focus, sort of like a debate although I never studied debate in school. You raise very interesting questions. I read a book about book clubs, and there was a list of topics to use in preparing for the discussion. I will post the list, attributing the author and title of the book. I may help others, I sure hope it will help me.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ella Gibbons - 08:54am Aug 13, 2001 PDT (#376 of 389) Discussion Leader/Books- from Ohio, The Heart of it All Mrs. Watson - I am following this exciting adventure that is proposed and I would very much like to read the list you referred to in your last post. Please do us the favor of listing them here and thanks!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Harold Arnold - 01:47pm Aug 13, 2001 PDT (#377 of 389) Discussion Leader--Books My telephone has been dead all morning and has just been restored. On the question of the books the following initial list is from the B & N catalog using a key word search on “Bligh.”

1. Captain Bligh and Mister Christian: The Men and the Mutiny In Stock:Ships within 24 hours . Richard Hough / Paperback / Naval Institute Press / August 2000

(Based on the catalog descriptions this may be the key non-fictrion book that every participant should resd,)

2. Captain Bligh's Portable Nightmare: From the Bounty to Safety--4,162 Miles across the Pacific in a Rowing Boat In Stock:Ships within 24 hours . John Toohey / Paperback / HarperTrade / February 2001

3. Bligh!: The Whole Story of the Mutiny Aboard H.M.S. Bounty In-Stock: Ships 2-3 days . Sam McKinney / Paperback / October 2000 Ginny

4. An Account of the Mutiny on H. M. S. Bounty William Bligh,Robert Bowman (Editor) / Paperback / Brill Academic Publishers, Incorporated / November 1980.

(Ginny, Is this the Book you are looking for. Currently it is not stocked by B & N. It is probably out of print).

5. Bligh!: The Whole Story of the Mutiny Aboard H.M.S. Bounty In-Stock: Ships 2-3 days . Sam McKinney / Paperback / October 2000 (I will seek out this book.

6. Mutiny on the Bounty In Stock:Ships within 24 hours . William Bligh,Malvina Vogel (Editor) / Hardcover / Playmore, Incorporated, Publishers / August 2000

7. The Bounty Trilogy: Comprising the Three Volumes, Mutiny on the Bounty, Men against the Sea and Pitcairn's Island In-Stock: Ships 2-3 days . Charles Nordhoff,James Norman Hall / Paperback / Little, Brown & Company / May 1985

This is the Northrop and Hall fictional trilogy: Mutiny on the Bounty, Men against the Sea and Pitcairn's Island

I do not think everyone should feel required to read all of these books. Hopefully we can center on one or maybe better, two of the key non-fiction books. Likewise everyone would have to read at least the fictional first volume of the trilogy, “Mutiny ON the Bounty.” If you have not read them before you will probably want to read the other two. I found the last one, “Pitcairn Island,” particularly intriguing since this is an account of the Mutineers on their paradise island. I will be able to say more about which books deserve our principal attention after I see them, which will not be before the end of the week.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mrs. Watson - 02:38pm Aug 13, 2001 PDT (#378 of 389)

I remember seeing pictures of the descendants of the mutineers / survivors on their island, I think it was Nat'l Geographic. It seemed so sad.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mrs. Watson - 03:05pm Aug 13, 2001 PDT (#379 of 389)

Ella: The book is: The Reading Group Handbook, by Rachel W. Jacobsohn. She has had 20 years experience as a paid reading group leader. These are items mentioned in surveys of some of her groups, perhaps more relevant to fiction than non-fiction: characters and story line; characters' actions; social implications; symbolism; author's purpose; credibility; readers' emotional response; resolution; personal reference; literary merit; work's similarity to other readings; theme; point of view; style; setting; time and memory. Ms. Jacobsohn adds her own topics: author's concept of self and emergence of other selves under stimuli; "...laws of physics ... scientific notion of energy and matter interacting with each other"; design ... " tension and release patterns; interweaving of themes, images, and symbols...balance in the speed of action;".

Tiger Tom - 01:08pm Aug 14, 2001 PDT (#381 of 389)

Books, Bligh

I have contacted a woman, Melissa, in London who is an employee at Foyle's Booksellers, she handles e-mail inquiries. I told her of our budding interest in Capt Bligh, etc. I asked her if she knew of any books in Britain that might not be available here in the U.S. or of any books that gave the British viewpoint on Bligh. I also asked if in fact that the Log of the Bounty had been found on Pitcairn Island and brought back to England and possibly published. She said she would nose around and see what she could come up with. Also said she would see if there were any other avenues in Britain I could follow.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ginny - 01:34pm Aug 14, 2001 PDT (#382 of 389) RoundTables Host--Pauline, S.C. ______Join us in our great Books & Lit sections and in Washington DC November 8-11 Watch This Space

Super, Tiger Tom, that's the spirit!! Let us know what you find out! Maybe there are some descendants of Bligh!!!

Watch this space for exciting new developments, ALL of your ideas will be condensed and swept over to a Planning for Bligh discussion soon, Watch This Space, and come one, come all. We'll be discussing methodology, not the books per se, we want to keep that for the opening bell, and deciding which to read, in which order and how to approach this.

We're aiming at February 1 as the John Adams discussion will probably go thru December, and I'm thrilled to announce our own Harold Arnold will be the Co-Leader with me for this one, I'm just totally chuffed, as the British say.

Boy Harold, thank you so much for that exhaustive list and there are many more also, it's a total puzzle.

I admit now to being totally confused?

I'm afraid this is it: A Voyage to the South Seas published in 1792, but behold the prices:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bligh, William: Voyage to the South Seas, A Price: $176.47 Merchant: CRAWFORDS Nautical Books

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bligh, William: Voyage to the South Seas, A Price: $188.24 Merchant: CRAWFORDS Nautical Books

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BLIGH, Capt. William: A VOYAGE TO THE SOUTH SEAS Price: $125.00 Merchant: Charles Agvent Rare Books & Autographs

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BLIGH, William. Voyage to the South Seas (LEC) Price: $125.00 Merchant: Heritage Book Shop

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BLIGH, William. Voyage to the South Seas (LEC) Price: $125.00 Merchant: Heritage Book Shop

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bligh, William: A Voyage to the South Seas Price: $125.00 Merchant: iconoclastbooks zShop

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bligh, William, Lt.: A Voyage to the South Seas Price: $60.00 Merchant: pacificbooks zShop

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bligh, William A VOYAGE TO THE SOUTH SEAS UNDERTAKEN BY COMM... Price: $250.00 Merchant: Parmer Books, ABAA

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BLIGH, WILLIAM.: A Voyage to the South Seas. Undertaken by c... Price: $150.00 Merchant: Bryan Matthews

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bligh, William: VOYAGE TO THE SOUTH SEAS, UNDERTAKEN BY COMM... Price: $150.00 Merchant: oak_knoll zShop

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bligh, William: A VOYAGE TO THE SOUTH SEAS. Undertaken By Co... Price: $118.75 Merchant: carolinabk zShop

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BLIGH, William.: A Voyage to the South Seas: Undertaken by C... Price: $175.00 Merchant: Argosy Book Store

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bligh, William: A Voyage to the South Seas Price: $125.00 Merchant: Montclair Book Center

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bligh, Lieutenant William: A VOYAGE TO THE SOUTH SEAS Price: $210.00 Merchant: seaocean zShop

_____

But then there's another one, , can it be the same one? Published in 1792 as well:

Bligh and the Bounty. His Narrative of the Voyage to Otaheite. With anAccount of The Mutiny and of his Boat Journey to Timor. Bligh, William.

Our Price: $168.75 Readers' Advantage Price: $160.31 Join Now

Format: Hardcover - First Edition / Dust Jacket Publisher: London: Methuen & Co., 1936. Associated Dealer: Cavendish Rare Books, B. Grigor-Taylor Pacific Grove, CA Condition: First edition of this issue, 8vo, very fine in illustrated dustwrapper;pp. xxix+284, with Preface, map on endpapers and 71 woodcutillustrations, some full-page, by Laurence Irving. A fine printing and unabridged re-issue of Bligh's narrative as first published 1792,delightfully illustrated.

But there are some cheap versions of this.

Then there are these letters which seem to be different but I think one of the books includes all his letters:

Fresh Light on Bligh: Some Unpublished Correspondence BLIGH, WILLIAM

Our Price: $9.99 Readers' Advantage Price: $9.49 Join Now In Stock: Ships 2-3 days

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm afraid that the one I have is A Voyage to the South Seas.

Let's look back thru thos two new non fictions and see whether or not either A Voyage to the South Seas ca. 1792 or Bligh and the Bounty, reprint ca. 1936 are included in either volume?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But doggone it, here's yet another one:

The Mutiny on Board H. M. S. Bounty William Bligh

From the Publisher Works of fiction, among them the Charles Laughton film, Mutiny On The Bounty, paint William Bligh as an ogre. Most paint Fletcher Christian, leader of the 1789 mutiny, as an honorable junior officer whose rebellion was justified. What's the real story?

In a personal but objective narrative based on the Bounty's log, Bligh himself tells of the stormy voyage to Tahiti, his crew's insatiable attachment to the island paradise, and the incredible 3,600-mile journey to safety after the mutineers cast him -- and 18 loyal crew members -- adrift in a small, open boat with few supplies. Bligh's detractors say this narrative has many distortions and omissions; others judge it a remarkably dispassionate record. You can decide.

"Bligh writes with dignity and assurance." (B-O-T Editorial Review Board)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you suppose that all three of these books are the same one? How can we find out???!!!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mrs. Watson, I LOVE her, have been babbling about her to our DLs for the longest time and right before my trip I had written her and she had very kindly answered, was hoping to communicate with her for our benefit here, but got caught up in other things, great minds run together, I was thinking of her just the other day, thank you SOO much for bringing her to our attention, I love what she says! ginny

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- betty gregory - 02:15pm Aug 14, 2001 PDT (#383 of 389)

Ginny, your last paragraph...are you referring to The Reading Group Handbook?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ginny - 03:37pm Aug 14, 2001 PDT (#384 of 389) RoundTables Host--Pauline, S.C. ______Join us in our great Books & Lit sections and in Washington DC November 8-11 hahahha Yes, Betty hahahahahaa what, your interpretative powers are not on full alert? hahahahaah HER and SHE won't do it? hahaahahah

Can we all see who walked 4.5 miles in this heat to try to get some of this flabbo off the body?

hahahaha

YES, the Reading Group Handbook and that Rachael is wonderful!

ginny

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Harold Arnold - 04:54pm Aug 14, 2001 PDT (#385 of 389) Discussion Leader--Books Thank, all of you for your posts. Tiger do let us know of any results emerge from your U.K. books contact. Do you know of any way this could be used to add possible U.K. participants in the discussion? Ginny that was quite a report on the books that you posted this afternoon. My view is that the Bligh book that is essentially his report to the Admiralty on the incident is certainly a primary source, although it quite naturally can be expected to be self-serving. I am not surprised at the high cost on the used market And Ginny, what do you think about going ahead at this time an making some sort of announcement on the S.N., U.K. board under the Geographic Communities tab on the Round Tables menu soliciting possible U.K. interest?

Yesterday evening I picked up at Half Price Books a 1980’s reprint of an 1831 book detailing the Mutiny written by a high Admiralty official for a modest $7.95. I’ll post a full report on this title later this evening after I check some of the details.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ginny - 05:11pm Aug 14, 2001 PDT (#386 of 389) RoundTables Host--Pauline, S.C. ______Join us in our great Books & Lit sections and in Washington DC November 8-11 Wow, Harold, where DO you find these things? That's fabulous, yes, please DO mention it in the UK discussion, this is all very exciting here.

ginny

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Harold Arnold - 05:25pm Aug 14, 2001 PDT (#387 of 389) Discussion Leader--Books Yesterday evening I was in San Antonio and as I was near the Half Price Books, Brackenridge store and I stopped to check the English history shelve for possible Bounty material. Bingo, there was one good one! This book is mentioned in the B & N catalog, It is,”The Mutiny of the Bounty, by Sir John Barrow, Gavin Kennedy (Editor) / Hardcover / Godine, David R. / October 1980. It is not currently stocked by B & N. and is probably out of print. I purchased the hard cover copy in good clean condition complete with the original dust cover for $7.95 considerably better price than the $30 to $50 tabs quoted in the B & N used dealers network.

The book is a 1980’s republication of an 1831 book by Sir John Barrows who at the time of the writing was the Permanent Secretary to the Admiralty. This is the same position that Samuel Pepes held 170 years earlier when he wrote his famous dairy. This title seem particularly good as it was written only 40 years after the incident by a person who by his position had complete access to the record. The book seems to give a complete account of the incident including the conclusion and the fate of all of the mutineers including those escaping to Pitcairn as well as those brought to England for trial.

While we must avoid the temptation to discuss the subject here and now, I will say one thing I noted from this book. Those of you who saw the 1930’s movie might remember that at the very end a member of the court martial, a Captain Horatio Nelson, congratulates Captain Bligh for his seamanship, but turns a cold shoulder on him as to his conduct as a naval officer. Well it seems Nelson’s presence on that court martial was Hollywood’s ideal. In fact while there were a number of RN captains and Admiral Lord Hood led it, Nelson was not involved.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mrs. Watson - 05:52pm Aug 14, 2001 PDT (#388 of 389)

Harold: Could that by any chance have been a Hollywood tie-in to a movie about Nelson? Life is so amusing, fiction isn't even in the running.

03:12pm Aug 15, 2001 PDT (#389 of 389) RoundTables Host--Pauline, S.C. ______Join us in our great Books & Lit sections and in Washington DC November 8-11 Don't you love this? I loved Harold's post, he just couldn't resist sharing that bit, this is so fun and the Books at its best.

I would like for those of you who are interested in the Bligh series to Come on over to the Working on Bligh Series brand new discussion!

Here we will figure out our methodology. The first step is to move all your posts that pertain to Bligh over there (or copy them, that would be best) Done!! and then get in the heading some of the suggestions and books so we can have a more organized appearance. To do!

I'm very excited about this voyage we're about to set out on and like all nervous travelers, we must get our bags packed. Do come look at the heading and links supplied by Pat Westerdale (a Bounty GAME?)

This is going to be "One for the Books!"

Thanks to you all!

ginny

OK I have received a shipment of 1. Bligh books and the Captain Bligh's Portable Nightmare by John Toohey looks quite interesting and readable, very conversational style, have any of you had a chance to get it? It's in paperback is about 202 pages with a cast of characters delinenated, I hesitate.

2. William Bligh and Edward Christian: The Bounty Mutiny seems to be a point/ counterpoint account of testimony or accounts by one of our own Maryal's colleagues at the US Naval Academy in Annapolis, R.D. Madison?

Starts out with Bligh, counters with Christian, back to Bligh, back to Christian, back and forth: it's interesting and has introductory passages as well.

Not sure here either, would like some more input from you all.

Both of those are non fiction.

I think if you reread the above you will see 3. we're thinking of adding to our list ONE of the Nordoff Hall series, the fiction series of Mutiny on the Bounty, and now that we have 4. THREE movies, do we have among us a movie buff who would agree to try to see them all and report to us which one slants where? And which one might be best for our viewing or do you want to try to see them all and in what order? Should we view a movie first, do you think?

I think and I have to be honest here that 5. we might want to invite both authors into our company as well of the non fiction?

6. Let's all reread just to refresh our memories, the points above and suggest what you'd like to see me get in the heading.

I simply canNOT believe that there has been 7. no cheap reprint of Bligh's own Voyage to the South Seas, let's compare opening pages if any of us can get hold of what we think is likely, I'll go to the library MOnday and see what I can find.

LOVE the connection as well with Foyle's, Tiger Tom, so fun! 8. Can you inquire as to any surviving Bligh relatives?

Sorry to be so late with this, let's get it set up? What ELSE do you want to get organized here??

ginny

So, first things first. Ginny, you want those who can to look for Bligh's Voyage to the South Seas....either as a stand alone cheap reprint or incorporated into one or more of the other books mentioned here, or any other book. Table of Contents, Indexes, some other form at the end of a book. Those who are beginning to network can ask about this, also.

I'd like to see (and maybe ask questions about) a proposed list. I like the way Harold and Ginny are working through this and feel fine about them and whoever else choosing the books to be read. I'm pretty much ok with any number of books. I'm pretty good at finding obscure sources of out-of-print books to purchase, so I could offer help with that.

I can see having more input about the schedule or the format of discussion after the books are chosen.

My interest in which movies or if or when to see them is far less than my interest in the books. We could leave movie-watching up to each individual, or, as I think you're suggesting, Ginny, choosing one or two to view roughly at the same time together. Either. I will say, let's get the book choices and schedule finished, then make decisions about the movie(s).

This is a great endeavor...I like the idea of all of us being a jury, with a final vote.

Can we think of even broader ways to advertize this Unit of Study or Unit of Discussion...or Discussion Series? This might be a good time to try to capture SeniorNet (non-Book) members who have been thinking of joining a discussion.

About asking authors to join us, do the contemporary authors agree? Can't remember if Ive read (from you) if there are contemporary authors who still think Bligh is a rascal/bad guy. If this is so, we wouldn't want one to show up without the other.

Harold, Ginny, is this truly a controversy, still? Do key researchers still disagree? Or, has there been a major, general shift in how Bligh is seen? Are there historians who scoff at the new books?

betty

Yes, Betty, that's step #1, I agree:

1. Let's see if we can find a cheap reprint of Bligh's original book in some form.

2. I loved this "This is a great endeavor...I like the idea of all of us being a jury, with a final vote. "

3. So you see the order as:

a. get the TEXT first
b. set the schedule next

That's good with me. And I agree we really need to get the word out and thankfully we have 6 months to do so. I realize that we can't expect intense interest here for 6 solid months but it's an experiment, this planning in public and we can only see how well it does!

I liked this:

I'd like to see (and maybe ask questions about) a proposed list.

And as for this:

Is this truly a controversy, still? Do key researchers still disagree? Or, has there been a major, general shift in how Bligh is seen? Are there historians who scoff at the new books?

I have no clue, but we'll be finding that out as a result of this enquiry of our own, you can't say we'll come away not having learned something.

I think, Betty, I'll put your suggestions in the heading as a starting point and add others as they come, in an attempt to organize this HUGE set of material.

What do the rest of you think?

ginny

I agree that the movie(s) are of secondary interest; we all know that a movie which starts as a book can be very strange. The questions for me are spontaneously generated by the reading material and comments of other discussants; at the end we are to decide/vote on the guilt/innocence of Bligh/Crhistian? As to the texts, I prefer to pick and choose; since my time is limited (I work full time) I cannot commit to reading all the suggested texts (and my interest may not be sustained in one or another of them). So I am voting not to choose the text(s) first, but to schedule, and to decide on the final question(s) first, then research the texts to support/refute the issues raised in the discussion. On the whole, I am excited by this novel approach to book discussion. New things are good for our minds, keeping us alert and vital.

M. Watson, you write of the discussion taking place first, without the books (your sentence beginning, "So I am voting not to"). I don't think it's a good idea to leave the traditional format of Books and Lit division of SeniorNet....the books are the foundation of the discussion. We discuss the books.

If you meant something else, such as knowing what major questions we'd like to answer by/in the selection of books, then that makes sense.

It's also ok with me to have, say, 4 books officially scheduled to be discussed and 2 books designated as "supplemental." And, of course, there will be participants who won't be able to read all books scheduled, but I do think they should be formally scheduled, nonetheless.

Mrs. Watson, thank you for those ideas and that marvelous quote, I love it, I have placed your ideas as well in the heading, if I understand properly (always a difficulty with moi) you might like to see the participants choose a side either for or against Bligh and then perhaps that person read texts which support his position? That would add a novel and diverse approach as well to the mix.

I think since there are so many texts it's entirely possible we can't read them all but if we have lots of input (Harold already has one I probably won't get, then that attorney can bring forth a new point we did not know, talk about the DREAM TEAM! hahahaha)

We can hash this out as we get settled, I'm off to the Library tomorrow to see what I can find.

Betty: Yes, we can also have a long list of supplemental reading, I think we already agree that the two following historical fiction Nordoff Halls, Men Against the Sea and Pitcairn Island, will be supplemental, added on for the participant's enjoyment.

The three historical fiction books by Charles Nordhoff and James Norman Hall are:

Mutiny on the Bounty: the familiar tale narrated by Captain Roger Byam, a midshipman on the Bounty

Men Against the Sea: which tells of Bligh and his men in an open boat, and

Pitcairn's Island: which describes the mutineer's life on a tiny Pacific Island for twenty years.

I'll put that in the heading as well, now.

Thanks for the input, this is very daring and exciting, I think.

ginny

ginny

M. Watson, I'm still thinking about your post and you know, I think you may have hit on something that would solve what to do with the remainder of pertinent books after x number of books are chosen for scheduling and x number are deemed "must read" supplementals (or however books are finally designated). There are bound to be some that get left out, but would serve the discussion well. Your idea about people reading different books...maybe there could be a voluntary reporting on certain books. (just brainingstorming here) I might say, Ok, in that third list of books, I volunteer to read _____ and report back the major points.

Is this in the ballpark of what you suggested?? Or, have I completely turned it upside down?

betty

Am I being dumber than a box of rocks here? Isn't this fiction? Wasn't Bligh a character in a novel? Can he be a real person? Help this sea sick lass here.

Betty: You are right on my wavelength. Yes, we do need to have a common grounding in the events, but the supplemental readings will add much depth, especially for those of us who are unable,through lack of time or lack of mentation, to digest so much material. Sure is sounding fine, isn't it?

Alf, our Captain William Bligh was very much a real person. He, Fletcher Christian and the rest of the cast were all real people and the events regarding the Bounty and the mutiny, etc all happened. The Northrop and Hall novels were all fictional representations of the historical events. For a very short biographical sketch of Captain William Bligh, click the following: William Bligh (1754 - 1817)

Thanks for the link(s), Harold.

Dumber than a box of rocks??? Hahahaha, Alf, what an expression!

I'm still enjoying the links to the paintings...much of the story is told in the comments. Thanks, Ginny, these are really wonderful.

I did a little scratching around on the Net last night researching Bligh, The Bounty and the Mutiny. I used Hotbot rather than Google. I was tired and my eyes were giving out so I only looked at a few of the sites presented. One site claimed that there are 2,000 articles (and five (5) major movies. I wonder what the other two movies are.) and books on the subject. If 90 percent of that 2,000 are articles it still leaves 200 books, lot of reading. I found a site titled "Bligh Geneology Forum." I am going back to that one to read some of the threads. this may answer the question about any surviving Bligh relatives. One site had a defense of bligh and a Defense of Christian from a trial of the Mutiny where Bligh was absent. The Bligh defense attorny presented quite a case in Bligh's behalf. NOT recommended reading for the ladies. I am going to do some more research. I have got the idea that there is a LOT of interest in this subject and has been a lot for quite some time. We are not in uncharted waters.

Here I go again thinking out loud. As has been mentioned in an earlier post this discussion has the potential to be considerably different from traditional discussions. While I have nothing against our traditional procedure, I also see nothing wrong with experimentation and the trying of new methods.

In the past most B & L discussions have been keyed to a single book. Here we are planning a discussion keyed to a historical event rather than a single book. The event that is the subject of our proposed discussion is the 1787 mission of HMS Bounty led by Captain William Bligh and the mutiny of its Crew led by Fletcher Christian. Questions to be discussed include what were the causes of the mutiny and in particular what was the role of the principal actors, Bligh, Christian and others in the mutiny. I think participants can prepare themselves for the debate by reading several maybe two or three of the non-fiction history books and maybe some of the fictional Bounty trilogy novels (see bibliography listed in previous post). I don’t think it necessary that all of us read exactly the same books though perhaps we should select one that all participants should read. That way we will get diverse ideas based on a wide range of research in our discussion yet everyone will be aware to the principal details of the event.

Early on we should identify the title every participant should read. The book selected should be a non-fiction history. It should include a complete overview of the event including the mission, conditions on the Bounty at sea, life of the crew at Tahiti, the mutiny, the open boat voyage of Bligh and the loyal crew from the Bounty, the Pitcairn settlement, fate of the participants returned to England, and the fate of the mutineers on Pitcairn Island. I now have two books just received from B & N, “Captain Bligh and Mr Christian” and “Captain Bligh’s Portable nightmare.” Also I have the reprint of the 1831 Barrow book “The Mutiny of the Bounty.” Of these, the last title is out of print and therefore generally unavailable. Of the other two, “Captain Bligh and Mr Christian I think would qualify as the key book to be read by every one. It is a pretty good overview of the event, relatively short (304 pages), and available in paperback and I expect from many libraries, but I do recognize weaknesses. Perhaps Ginny or others has a better candidate. In any case we will have a long supplemental reading list and while no individual participant should feel obligated to read all, the reading of some will be desirable.

On reflection I think there is B & L precedent for this type of discussion in the now ending marathon de Tocqueville. “Democracy in America” discussion.” There the book was the de Tocqueville text, but the discussion was keyed not to the American Democracy as it was described in the 1826 book, but American Democracy as it has evolved from de Tocqueville’s time until today. Participants based their contributions on their experience and their reading of supplemental material and their general knowledge of our present American democracy. All did not come from the de Tocqueville text or from any single writing.

Harold, what you describe sounds wonderful and, thinking of the specific subject, fits the material well.

I think what concerns me and gets in the way of my ignoring the standard method of setting up a discussion is the challenge of capturing participants' interest. I'm trying to picture how the discussion will be presented and if the average reader will feel welcome. Worst case scenario is that only those of us excited about the subject now will be participating later, that only a handful will have read 5 or 6 books and feel a part of the discussion. I say "worst case" because I don't really know. And, maybe you've already been thinking of the same concern by suggesting only one required book. That still might not be enough for a participant to hang in the discussion, once it is realized that everyone else is quoting from other books. But, again, I don't feel strongly enough one way or the other to know if that's what would happen. Actually, the format may not figure that much in who decides to join in....it might be who's interested in Bligh.

Another thought after reading your post...since we're thinking so far in advance. If all the major discussion questions are known in advance, all the books are broken down into major and supplementary lists and it is known ahead of time that the discussion will be on topics, not chapters, then participants' preparation will be different, not just the discussion format. With early advertisement, that shouldn't be a problem.

Personal preference....is still 4 or 5 required books, but I'm certainly excited about your description of a discussion of topic questions. That fits so much better than a regimented discussion of multiple books. You've completely won me over on that. (You and Mrs. Watson, that is. Her thinking is exactly as yours.)

betty

What a dunce I am! Honestly, I have believed all of my life that Capt. Bligh was a figment of someone's imagination. Now my interest is piqued.

Tiger Tom, you wrote, "We are not in uncharted waters." To your comment "NOT recommended reading for the ladies," shall I launch into my talking a desperate graduate student with a gun down from his screaming emotional ledge while the Berkeley police tactical team pointed weapons at us from the top of another building? Or, can I just say that whatever is in print is probably not uncharted waters for the women here?

That sounds testier than I meant. I just wanted to assure you that you might be surprised at the range of life seen by the women readers here in Books. (And, just like a kid, now I must see that defense attorney's writings.)

betty

Hey Alf, you have nothing to be ashamed of. We are all equally in the dark about many specific events and people. Believe me when I say I've stumbled on to my share of misconceptions. I look forward to your participation, please read on and ask questions whenever you have them. There is no such thing as a dumb one!

Betty Gregory. What I meant by not being in uncharted waters was that apparently there have been much discussion in the past and ongoing now of this subject. So if we wish we can find some ideas for our discussions and perhaps some tips on what areas we wish to discuss. If we were alone in discussing this subject then we could not refer to other discussions for ideas, thus being in uncharted waters so to speak. About my remarks "Not recommended reading for ladies" It is not the subject matter so as one phrase used by the Able bodied Sailors in reference to the Tahitian Women. I am not a prude and have certainly heard about everything but the phrase embarassed even me. I doubt if you and any other Woman on this discussion board would care to be referred to that way. Just was trying to warn you if in case you did go to Hotbot and stumble on the the defense I was referring to so you might be prepared. Wasn't inferring that you are not mature grown up women who have to be sheltered from strong language, etc. Apologies if I offended.

Wow, miss a half a day and come back to roaring, first things first, taking your posts in order:

Tiger Tom: I laughed out loud, "uncharted waters," you are so droll, what a wonderful use of metaphor!!! Just for that I put something droll in the heading as well, all of you look and see if, perhaps, the heading loads too slowly or you can see my surprise!

Betty, I agree and we must think about how to publicize this one, we've had so many good suggestions.

I regret I did not get to the Library yesterday and may not today, unfortunately the loggers are here and it may be a while but certainly if I can't get out till Saturday, that will be the day.

Andrea (ALF) if you thought Bligh was fiction you are in for some KIND of a treat, talk about learning, you will be astounded at the feats of this much maligned man.

Tiger Tom: FIVE movies? FIVE? You know when you talked about 3 I thought too many, now that you mention FIVE, I'm afire to see them? Isn't that strange? It's like the Christmas Carol iterations. (I collect the movies of A Christmas Carol?) I need to see them all and how they differ. You have started a mess here! hahahahah

What we can do is list them, one by one, as to date and who starred in it? And we can then as they come up on tv or as we are able, maybe to rent from the Libraries (did you know your library has movies to rent?) we can add our comments to a movie review type of thing?

I have looked in Orbit and there is no showing either in August or September, of any of the Mutiny's, but that is just for the premium (HBO like) channels? So let's be watching, we've got 6 months to prepare?

---

Harold, whenever you start out with that "just thinking out loud" stuff I KNOW we're in for a treat!! Well done.



I've put your ideas in the heading, too, we must sift and wade thru this maze of lots o books, and our own requirements and desires. Let me put up your suggestions as well and let's simmer them and see what we think??

Before this time next week I hope, I HOPE to actually print here the first paragraphs of several of the books, (I have three) in order that we may view the style and see if it suits?

How fast does this heading load for you? Is my little bit of whimsey slowing it down??

ginny

Ginny, I DON'T KNOW all five titles. I said that on one of the sites it was claimed that there were 2,000 articles and books on the subject in existence and five (5) major movies. Unfortunately, the movies were not listed. I am going back to the site to read it a bit more carefully to see if perhaps I can get a lead on the titles or find an e-mail address where I can send a query asking for the titles. I suspect that perhaps two of these movies were made in Europe perhaps in Germany or another country. Certainly, There is a good deal of interest in Bligh, the Bounty and the Mutiny in Europe. BTW while in Germany I taped, in German, and excellent series on Captain cook. In it were some references to Bligh. One point about him was that while he did have a temper it was directed at shoddy workmansip, corrupt contractors and suppliers, etc.

I have, as promised, gone back to the site. I found an e-mail address and have sent query to ther owner of the site. Don't know when, or if, I will get an answer to that query. IF you are interested: the site is very very interesting; has a LOT of information; a number of links; names of organizations, museums, other discussion groups, etc.; You can find it by going to HOTBOT, typing in Captain Bligh on the search line and going to site No. 15 "Mutiny on HMS bounty" Site owned by Paul J. Lareau. I will let you know if Mr. Lareau answers my query and what he tells me.

Ginny: Glub Glub What whimsey? Glub Glub

In the back of my mind I seem to remember a 1940's movie titled "Bounty Bay." Does any one remember that one? Alan Ladd comes to mind as one of the actors. Perhaps this is one of the five movies mentioned above?

The weakness of the book, "Captain Bligh and Mr Christian" that I mentioned yesterday lies in its failure to footnote the facts presented in the text. As a matter fact the book opens with details of the activities of Christian and his followers just prior the mutiny, that I had never heard of before. I can't say they are not correct, but I would expect documentation citing the source. There is only a list of sources at the end of the book. Also I am suspicious of any history book that reads like a novel describing detail only be implied from known facts.

I am at my volunteer job at the S.A. Mission National Park and using their computer for this post as I am again unable to connect from my home because of a S.W. Bell cable problem. This one seems serious and repair is not expected through tomorow. If this schedule holds, it may be Thursday before I post again.

I am tired and confused. Tired because my Internet Service Provider has to be the worst in the U.S. Using it is such a chore. It is a struggle to move around, to download, to change sites. Everything. Seems that the crew of techs who are handling cannot stop fiddling with it. The do not believe in "If it is not broke Don't Fix it." Sigh Confused: I am not sure how MANY books that are out there on this subjects. LOTS. I have seen various numbers. largest so far is 5,000. That site I mentioned in earlier post: NO. 15 on HOTBOT has a bibliography. It contains a list of books (I don't know how many as It was too long to count;) a list of Manuscripts (again too long to count) a list of poems, five (5,) a list of Paintings. and a list of Movies. The two major movies. the two missings titles are: "Mutiny of the Bounty" made in Australia in 1916. It has George Cross as Bligh and Wilton Power as Christian. NO prints of this film exists. "In the Wake of the Bounty" made in Australia in 1933. Stars Mayne Linton as Bligh and ERROL FLYNN as Christian. MGM has the North American Rights to it. Don't know if any prints exists. There is a book by Paul Lareau titled: "The HMS Bounty Geneology" which has info on the characters involved in the Bounty and their descendents (I didn't Spell that right but I am too tired to look it up.) I will continue to research, tomorrow.

Tom, you made me chuckle, chuckle, chuckle. Not at you, sir, but at your well documented (and understandable!!) reasons for exhaustion. Oh, don't you just hate it when ISPs screw up? I'm not having any trouble with mine at present (cross my fingers), but when I have, working with ISP troubleshooters has almost always been as frustrating as the original problems. At any rate, I no longer will let anyone but a ISP manager suggest changes to my computer settings, and even that isn't a guarantee of success!! I gather that you don't have many ISP choices in your area?? Anyway, thanks for your work on our behalf!!

Trouble with SW Bell Cable in San Antonio, Harold? I'm thinking of adding the speeded up Direct Service (DSL?) with SW Bell here in Austin. At my high density corner, it is my only choice...a monopoly of sorts. Hope they get yours fixed quickly.

Consumer Reports looked at all ISP services and listed AT&T first for product, service, low complaints, etc. That was a surprise. I'm not even sure that's available here.

betty

Betty: You're lucky to have the choice for DSL. We are apparently too far from the office or whatever to get DSL and have to make do with 44 to 46 k baud. Is seems to me that there are many, many sources to consider, but ultimately, theyall must rely on the same set of primary sources. To quote: facts is facts. I wonder how much further along we amateurs will be to read multiple variations on the same set of facts. What we are looking for is insight on the motives of the actors, isn't it? Much of the material must be minute examinations of various aspects of the basic tale. What Bligh did after the mutiny attests to his character and to the impact of these events on it. It says much about the man. But we are looking at a narrower focus, aren't we? The vast amount of documentation speaks to the fascination we have with the bones of the controversy. But what do we need to know to make our decisions?

I have been SO lucky. Have been with my server for three and a half years now, and never a moment's problem! Knock on wood!

I am in a fairly rural area so there are not many ISP's available. One is about the same as another.
I won't call the ISP any more because they always insist that the problem is in my equipment or software. Never the ISP's fault, always mine.
This is getting more interesting as I do additional research. I had not been aware of how much controversy is and has gone on about the Mutiny and the people involved in it. It is almost like politics the passion it has aroused pro and con of the Mutiny, its reasons and the people involved.

A reminder to us all....the date on any piece of material is a key piece of information. Except for the original sources, the date on an analysis could help us know what to toss out and what to keep. Example, if in those 2000 documents, 170 are Masters' theses or Ph.D. dissertations, all but the latest could be tossed, because the latest would have to account for the previous research. Also, if so much has been written, there should emerge a name or two who are recognized as the "best" sources, as I think Harold has already suggested. It would be interesting to find that the "experts" are divided on only one or two critical points, but that those points make all the difference.

betty

I'm way way behind here but have brought for your attention the first page of the Bligh A Voyage to the South Seas so that you may compare it with any other text you may run across. This will take eons to load, it's huge, so click on it and go get a cuppa and return in anticipation.

I comiserate with those with ISP problems, I, too, live in a rural area and there's not much available so one does the best one can. However, I must say that nothing is more frustrating to me than an ISP hang up or computer hang up, and I don't know why that is??

Harold, here's another one: the book I am reading, The Bounty Mutiny by William Bligh and Edward Christian is very confusing, in the extreme? In the first place it is not the actual text?

It begins

I sailed from OTAHEITE on the 4th of April 1789, having on board 1015 fine bread-fruit plants, besides many other valuable fruits of that country, which, with unremitting attention, we had been collecting for three and twenty weeks, and which were now in the highest state of perfection.

This purports to be the words of Bligh (in August 1787, I was apppointed to command the Bounty...") in the Advertisement preceeding the text but the actual text for the 4th April and the 11th April are different? I have no idea what is going on here but am unwilling to read a watered down sort of thing?

This edition is titled The Bounty Mutiny: William Bligh and Edward Christian: Edited with an introduction by R.D. Madison, I suggest we strike it off our list?

Harold, you likewise do not recommend the Christian and Bligh, I kinda like the Portable Nightmare, but let me read on a bit, it's fictionalized and I know you hate that sort of thing, but it's very well footnoted?? Written by an historian as well. But it may be that the Nordoff Hall is enough fiction for us all???

I'm really amazed at what all is out there, and am very chuffed at the idea we might be in the swing of all this scholarly excitement. I know from prior experience that we get the most out of these book discussions the more we bring personally to them and I really look forward to a satisfying read, if we can ever straighten out these texts, but this one is a mystery, I don't like it already!

ginny

The only thing I can find Bligh said about leaving Otaheite was

ON SATURDAY the Fourth:

...and we made sail, bidding farewell to Otaheite, where for twenty-three weeks we had been treated with the utmost affection and regard and which seemed to incease in proportion to our stay...



We left Otaheite with only two patients in the venereal list, which shows that the disease has not gained ground. The natives say that it is of little consequence, and we saw several instances of people that had been infected, who, after absenting themselves for 15 or 20 days, made their appearance again, without any visible symptom remaining of the disease. Their method must contribute towards it. We saw a great many people, however, with scrofulous habits, and bad sores: these they denied to be produced from any venereal cause; and our surgeon was of the same opinion.

??? Quite a bit of difference?

g

Ginny, A question concerning the following:

This edition is titled The Bounty Mutiny: William Bligh and Edward Christian: Edited with an introduction by R.D. Madison, I suggest we strike it off our list?

You say William Bligh and Edward Christian wrote it. Presumably the William Bligh is the Captain, but who was this Edward Christian? I know a brother of Fletcher Christian was actively defending his brother during the 1790's apparently by criticizing Bligh. This would make a collaboration of the brother and Captain Bligh in the writing of a book, difficult to imagine?

I have no problem with the "Portable Nightmare" title except it hones in on the open boat voyage from th Bounty after the mutiny and does not really cover the events leading to the mutiny. The "Captain Bligh and Mr Christian” book better cover the whole event. While it is written as a popular history and as such is poorly documented, I guess I don’t entirely rule it out at this point. The Barrow reprint that I picked up at Half Price Books provides the best authoritative overview that I have seen to date. While i suspects this 1980's reprint is available from many libraries, it is out of print and not available for current new purchase.

Nest week I hope to find time to go to the local libraries to research more possible books.

It was his brother, Harold, (forever more called "Sharpeye" for this Voyage):

From the Publisher "While the full story of what drove the men to revolt or what really transpired during the struggle may never be known, Penguin Classics has brought together - for the first time in one volume - all the relevant texts and documents related to a drama that has fascinated generations. Here are the full text of Bligh's Narrative of the Mutiny, the minutes of the court proceedings gathered by Edward Christian in an effort to clear his brother's name, and the highly polemic correspondence between Bligh and Christian - all amplified by Robert Madison's introduction and selection of subsequent Bounty narratives."

We do not want this one, I don't think?? But again, it worries me, this author teaches English at the US Naval Academy in Annapolis along side our own Maryal, I don't think... I don't know what to think, can I mail it to you, Harold? Or anybody else who might be willing to scan it with a beady eye?

ginny

Ginny,

Did you note the two movie titles that made up the five major movies? Don't believe you will be able to add them to your collection. Although I would love to see the one with Errol Flynn as Christian.

Ginny, Harold
Could both or one of you go to that site I listed: NO. 15 on the Hotbot search Engine listing of sites under the heading "Captain Bligh" There is quite an extensive Bibliography in it in addition to a number of interesting links. In that bibliography are books and manuscripts that might give you and idea of how extensive the literature is on this subject. Not to mention the official accounts of trials and inquests, etc. You will also find two (2) defenses, one for Bligh and one for Christian at an official "Trial" although Bligh was not present at that trial. Interesting reading and might give us a direction in our "Inquest."

They're in the heading, Tiger Tom, and I'll try to go tomorrow to the hotbot site and hopefully Harold will, too, it's mountainous, isn't it? It's like an avalanche and we can ski right down it, let me go look tomorrow, and come back in!

ginny

Ginny

You are right, sorry. I zip right on by the heading so I missed that. My mistake. Getting old(er.)

Good heavens, Tiger Tom, when you're right, you're right, I don't believe I have ever seen such a thing as this: Bounty Resources, Clubs, Reading, Enthusiasts, History, Art, etc., etc. etc

I am fascinated by this site, I expect they will want to know of our efforts, too, I'm a bit leery of the crew members still being alive as one of the sections claims? Did you see that?

Those would be fairly old crew members, I did not go far enough in depth on that link to see if they were in jest or maybe fancy?

But that's amazing, I especially liked the playlet idea, that one needs to be in the heading, thank you VERY much for bringing our attention to it!

ginny

Ginny

I think that if they are speaking of members of the original crew of the Bounty, then they are joking. If they were alive, original crew members would be over two hundred years old. that is a tad long in the tooth.

I forgot to bookmark that site. Must go back and do it. I have only started to examine the whole site. There is much in it.

You know what else is in it, Tiger Tom? A great section listing all the discussions taking place on the internet ON Bligh! That may be a great place to list ours, I think that's fascinating, and in listing that we may also pick up some enthusiasts, I want to word ours just so, how do you all think we should do it?

Everybody go look at how nicely they present the discussions, I love it.

ginny

Ginny, Tom, et al.: I believe that the living crew members mention refers to the Bounty II, a tall ship apparently. That is a terrific site. As a resident of California, I will commit to making the trip to the Angwin site of Bounty artifacts, and make a full report. It will be really tough to go to the Wine Country, but I'll make the sacrifice for you, you're such nice people!

Last night on a TV channel (Bravo? or A&E?) I saw the last hour of THE BOUNTY, starring Anthony Hopkins and Mel Gibson. It was on from 7:30 pm until 10 pm EST and I just tuned in at 9 p.m. The movie ended just as Christian found Pitcairn Island and Hopkins arrived in England and was found not guilty. Hopkins is one of my favorite actors - are you going to watch this one in preparation for your dicussion?

Thank you for that Ella, if it repeats I will tape it and we can share the tape, appreciate that head's up. Let me go find it on the schedule, I had looked under M for Mutiny!

ginny

Today!! Right now!! The Bounty is about to show at 1 pm Eastern on Bravo, let's run if we get that channel and set the VCR'S!!

Thanks so much, Ella!

ginny

Do we have a site or source with a good Bounty bibliography? While browsing the used book store shelves, I found two Bounty books, and a Bligh book. How can I determine if they ) are worthwhile? Dening's Mr. Bligh's Language and Wahroos' The Mutiny (includes Bounty encyclopedia is says plus The Last Mutiny (I didn't write the author's name). Also, is Nordoff and Hall's trilogy still in print?

Yes, Mrs. Watson, the Nordoff Hall trilogy is definitely in print and available, as for the others, let me put the first page of Bligh's own words in the heading, that was my intent and I forgot to do so, so that those with differing titles might perhaps have the real thing, the Bligh original.

How shall we tell, Everybody, if a book is "worthy"? What will be our criteria? The links above have tons of bibilographical material, almost too much?

What to doooo?

Let me get Bligh up!

ginny

Mrs Watson, I think we have a list of about a half dozen non-fiction books on the Bounty subject plus the fiction trilogy that have been mentioned in earlier posts. Over the next several days I will go back to the earlier posts and compile a tentative list of books under consideration. Perhaps then, the list can be added to the heading. I would stress that any list should be considered tentative. What do you think Ginny?

Also here are a few comments concerning forming your judgment of the Bounty related titles you found in the used book store. What are their titles, who wrote them and when? Usually with about 20 minutes of examination you can form some idea of a book's character as fiction or non-fiction history. If they are non-fiction you can also form opinion concerning their worth by how well they are documented. Does the book include a bibliography of sources used by the author of the book? Is the source of various points made in the text identified with footnotes? Finally regarding the author, do you recognize his/her name? If not, what does the dust jacket tell about the author's credentials qualifying him/her to write the book?

B& N has the three volumes of the Northorp and Hall trilogy offered as a set for under $20.00. See Bounty Trilogy

Ginny, Harold: Thanks for the tips. However, you two didn't pick up on my ploy--having someone else do the hard work instead of doing it myself! The criteria you cite, Harold, sound like good guides and I am grateful. My sorties into the world of used books will be more productive in the future.

Have checked out those two books; they are both listed in the bibliography cited above. Dening is an Australian historian/professor who looks at the Bounty facts as they are interpreted through time and in various social contexts. Wahlroos is a psychologist who presents a "balanced" view of the events, including a Bounty encyclopedia. Both sound interesting to me so I will pick them up if they are still there.

Super, Mrs. Watson, thanks so much, I believe we've had a mini crash or something as my post disappeared HOWEVER, I did find, Tiger Tom, you won't believe this, but I did find the 1935 film Mutiny on the Bounty with Clark Gable.

Say not so! It's in black and white, I've ordered it and will be glad to pass it around and share with you all, as we've done many times n the past in discussions, the write up says:

Clark Gable, Charles Laughton, Franchot Tone. This Oscar wining film follows the adventures of demoralized sailors who mutiny againast an evil sea captain and retreat to a South Seas island.

Now there's not much doubt about the treatment Bligh gets in this one, but I'm curious to see it anyway. I'll let you know after I've viewed it how it was.

---

Further viewing:

If you get cable, these showings of The Bounty are scheduled for September:

This one is Mel Gibson, Anthony Hopkins:

A conflict over naval discipline leads the first mate to encourage mutiny.

AMC....September 22nd at 6 pm, and 12:30 am


on September 23rd at 10:30 am


That's the only other two times in September, let's try to get a couple of copies to circulate!

ginny

Mrs. Watson, hahahaha no nooooooo Harold and I did not miss your ploy, we're old hands at "avoiding ploy," it's a mantle with us: Those Who Avoid Ploys! hahahahaha

The Dening and Wahlroos SOUND absolutely fabulous will you clue us in? I want to hear your reaction before I plunge, was very disappointed tho in the one I cited above.

This is hard, but it's going to be worth it, and we have lots of time. Thank you all for your wonderful help with organizing it.

ginny

I bought the 1935 Clark Gable, Charles Laughton, Franchot Tone film about 15 years ago. At the time it was in all the mail order catalogs at a quite low price. I think it was less than $15.00. As Ginny said it is in black and white but it is expertly directed and acted as was common with so many pre WW II films. The story line I feel is direct from Northrop and Hall. Bligh, indeed is pictured as a tyrant who so abused his officers and men as to bring on the mutiny. His only credit comes at the very end when the film departed from history to have Captain Nelson as a member of the court martial trying the mutineers. Though Nelson was critical of Bligh for his command methods, he commended him for his leadership and seamanship during the open boat voyage from the Bounty to the Dutch Indies. .

Have been reviewing the used book market online. I'm dismayed at how many copies of the Dening book are available at Alibris. Sounds like it sold well, but wasn't a keeper. Hmmmmm. Further study is required. The Wahlroos may be a better choice, haven't found many copies of that one available, maybe it didn't sell well. Watched some of the Mel Gibson, Anthony Hopkins Bounty--brooding, sultry looks by Gibson, Hopkins somewhat detached. Should have sat through the whle thing. Laughton and Gable, wow, what a duo. This is where the Dening book should work, assessing the social context within which the films were conceived.

I have recently heard from Melissa, the lady who handles e-mail inquiries for Foyles booksellers in London. She is quite busy but when she has time she does look around for anything I may have asked her to look for or has some onne in the firm look for her. She says she has found three (3) books:
"Bounty Mutiny," William bligh. price 7 Pounds 95 pence
"Log of HMS Providence," William bligh, price 475 pounds
"Journal of a voyage to the South Seas on HMS Endeavor price 40 pounds.
I am not sure what the shipping and handling would be or the exhange rate of dollars to pounds.
Tom

Several years ago I visited Pitcairn Island (actually stood off the island) on a freighter. A direct descendant of Capt. Bligh was on our ship, making a visit to Pitcairn Island, the first time anyone of that lineage ever set foot on the Island. He suggested "Captain Bligh's Bad Language" a book which is sympathetic to Bligh. Incidentally, I also met a Chriatian (he came onto our ship to visit)who was not at all happy about the Bligh descendant's visit. So the animosity has persisted!

Jvbosco, thank you for your comment. We hope you will be active here both during the current planning phase and in February when we begin the discussion. Do join us for the discussion

I suppose that the naive animosity between Bligh and Christian decendants is quite human. None-the-less, to a family outsider, its persistance seems rather pointless at this late date.

AH!! My goodness, jvbosco, don't YOU go anywhere we want to hear all! So it's like the Hatfields and the McCoys, hah?

Now I'm not familiar with Captain Bligh's Bad Language, I'll go look it up, many thanks!!

Don't go away!

ginny

All this time I guess I thought "Captain Bligh's Bad Language" was some kind of collection or dictionary of naughty words used in the RN in the 18th century. Perhaps there is more substance in this title. I too will check it out.

Ginny, Harold: That is the Dening book i have been talking about.

The Denning book, "Mr Bligh's Bad Language" is still in print and available from B & N in both hard cover, $64.95 and paperback, 10.75. It does seem to view the subject from an unique angle. Read the publishers description with the B & N sales pitch and review materal here, Mr Bligh's Bad Language (Hard Cover)

And click here for the Paperback without much description or reviews.

If this happens again, Mrs. Watson, just reach over and spill someone's water on all the papers.

About 17 years ago, I was determined to be heard in an (otherwise) all male management group that met about twice a year in Chicago. I had experienced men completely tuning me out, as I spoke during meetings. A friend mailed me a book that listed strategies to employ to increase visibility and interest during meetings. One strategy was to consciously speak in a lower register voice...more like a male voice. Another was to speak slower, with deliberation, and to add a pause here and there. I already did have a pretty strong speaking voice and didn't mind "speaking up" in meetings, but I practiced speaking in a lower register and more slowly...with a pause here and there to increase attention.

At the next meeting in Chicago, during the first dramatic pause in my first comment...close to the end of the morning meeting....the Vice President in charge of the meeting called the lunch break. Of approximately 40 people in the room, only 8-10 realized what had just happened. The rest of the people were rising from their chairs, stretching, beginning to talk about lunch, throwing papers back into briefcases. The 8 or 10 who realized what happened were stunned, still in their chairs, looking back and forth from me to the 30 or so who were oblivious. One guy of the smaller group spoke of this incident for years and used it, with my permission, in a book. The serendipitous payoff, a closer connection to each in the smaller group, served me well over the next few years, in serious and funny ways. At least once a year, at a boring, mandatory dinner, someone would say....hey, Betty, tell'em about the pause.

betty

That's a cute story, Betty, I enjoyed it.

Actually I think anybody who rereads the correspondence here can see there was not only no attempt to ignore anybody but it's a comedy of errors.

Mrs. Watson spoke of the Deming book and once said it was Mr. Bligh's Language. We encouraged her to let us know about it, there is no way on earth , I'm still plowing thru Tiger Tom's 1,000,001 hotbot page references to Bligh, for us to be able to know all the books. We rely upon you all to bring us worthy titles.

When jvbosco mentioned Mr. Bligh's Bad Language a week later and no author, I'm not sure any person would have recognized it (except Mrs. Watson, who knew the full title and author) as the same book because so many of these books have such simiilar titles.

At any rate, I want to assure everybody reading this that not only did we not ignore Mrs. Watson as you can see from rereading our posts, but we value her greatly, and everybody else in this discussion. I am sorry if that impression was given, Mrs. Watson, I think you made a rare find in the bookstore!!

I've ordered it also and we can discuss it with more intelligence once we have it in our hands! hahahahaha

It's truly astounding how much has been written on this, what else have you all found today?

ginny

Betty: That is an amusing tale. I did not, at any time, feel unheard. I reported a pair of titles; Harold gave me some guidelines for assessing the value of any books is was considering. My research included a survey of used books online, and I found way too many copies of the Dening book listed. However, it was included in the bibiolgraphy cited above, as is the other book, by Sven Wahlroos, a psychologist. So I read some reviews online, and decided to get them. These authors are writing from social science perspectives, areas I am comfortable with, and I feel that the social context will be interesting for me to consider as we evaluate the "facts". Already, I'm speculating about the portrayal of Bligh in the 30's film--depression, animosity toward aristocratic holders of power. No surprise tat Nordoff & Hall, and the movie, showed us a villain. Ginny and Harold did fine. They gave me tools so I could make my own decision. (But if it had been Tiger Tom talking...)

Yes Mrs Watson?

What about Tiger Tom talking???

I think it must be the position of the moon or high humidity levels or some weird germ, this week. Too many disconnects in communication and every time I spotted one this past week, I laughed longer and louder. Yes, yes, Comedy of Errors is exactly right, Ginny, though you worked far too hard to patiently explain everyone's diligence in including everyone. (YOU work harder than anyone at this...no one even comes close...that would be impossible, anyway...you've made my day by noticing or commenting so many times that I've lost count...having you for a model yardstick for others to follow would cause general havoc and world panic, so that's out....bless your heart for the long explanation, although THAT started me laughing again because it qualified as another disconnect....no, I wasn't seriously worried that the author's name Denning (Dening?) or M. Watson had been ignored...it was just the (funny to me) combination of you saying you'd never heard of that book and M. Watson saying, THAT'S the one I've been talking about...slide into the floor laughing....how do we ever, ever manage as well as we do in Books, and we do, it's beyond amazing.)

So, I didn't really want spilled water everywhere. And I DID think, as I do every time, is this one too many women-get-dumped-on stories this week? Even if it's lighthearted, I still think that. Anyway, anyway, the disconnects march on. In another folder today, several helpful people were summarizing others' thoughts, simply because these are particularly nice people. I started laughing and thought I might not ever get stopped. We humans are a scream.

I so appreciate the work everyone's doing in this Bligh preparation. I'm sorry I'm not "out there" digging up references, but I have complete faith in our steeped-in-history expert Harold (and I like the way you think) and Ginny's exacting and keen-eye approach, though (my favorite part) it's a human in there doing the exacting, so surprises happen all the time. I think that's called creativity. With these two leading the search, I know absolutely we'll end up with the best books. I'm willing to do assigned tasks....if anyone needs me to "go find how many..." or "skim both of these for references to....," just ask.

betty

My interest in these books started out because of my humiliation. I openly admitted here that I thought Capt. Bligh was but a figure of an author's imagination. After being set straight in this discussion, I took it upon myself to question everyone that I came in contact with (readers at least) if they had ever heard of the notorious Capt. and if they believed he had truly existed, or not. Much to my surprize, I stand alone. Every single person I asked, knew of Bligh and his first mate. This fact alone is what increases my love for this Books and Literature site. I have been in my little medical world all of these years believing I was a fairly literate woman. How humble I've become. I have benefitted so much with each post that I read. You have enlightened me, amused and amazed me and indulged me. I thank you one and all. My trilogy has been ordered and now I'm in!!!

Tiger, Betty: What a riot we are. Yes, I, too, have had tohse days, weeks, when everything seemed to build on to what had gone before. So often I am the only one laughing. TIger, I couldn't resist "piggybacking" on Betty's tale to drag you in, as the only male "constant reader" (besides Harold). We women do have countless examples of men (frequently near and dear) who simply do not HEAR us. It must be testosterone poisoning, to quote Tom & Ray. I know that you listen to women, but I had to pick on someone, didn't I?

But I think Mrs. Watson is a man in reality? hahahahahaa So it can't be a "woman dumped on" story, she's a "he," aren't you, Bertram?

ginny

Humph! I am certainly not a man! I am Esme Watson, second wife of Dr. John Watson, Sherlock Holmes dear friend and comrade! And, I have all my original equipment to prove my gender!

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, I don't think women call it "equipment."

Just to take my mind off the present for a little while. I have checked out the Bounty trilogy by Nordhuff and Hall. I will start reading it in a bit when things settle down, hopefully.
Betty, Just what do women call "IT" I know men refer to their "IT" as equipment, tool, and a few other names. I have never heard what women refer to their "IT" among themselves. I DO know that women seem to be offended by various terms men use to define women's "IT" Me, when I was young and single referred to IT as the altar at which I worshipped, the altar of Aphrodite. Just kidding. Tom

Tiger Tom: "It"! I love it. Remember in Lady Chatterley's Lover, IT had a name? Well, we women, lacking the focus of your equipment you men have, don't usually define a single site.

Yesterday I purchase an Interesting book at B&N that I will use to provide related contemporary Royal Navy outlooks during the Bligh/Bounty discussion, It is a recent published compilation of over 20 short excerpts from writings of officers and sailors or the RN during the 1790 - 1815 period. At least two of the stories relate to the US Navy during the War of 1812. For reviews and other information from the B&N catalog click: Every Man Will Do His Duty

Wow, Harold, what a find, we will really be interested to hear what you find out in that book.

I've found another one, too, this one an out of print book called Bligh of the Bounty and it's the same text as A Voyage to the South Seas, very tiny book, you could read it in an instant.

Now I think that there is still another one out there with a different title, have a look at this page of Bligh books on Bibliofind? Bligh Books

Please note that the Mutiny on Board H.M.S. Bounty if I have that right, SEEMS to be the same first person narrative that we have in the heading under this link: Facsimile page of original Bligh Account: A Voyage to the South Seas for comparsion to any you might find and please note some of the copies are going for less than three dollars.

That would be three dollars well spent, if we could only know IF that book is the same one as the original Bligh book?

Do any of you have it?

ginny

As I said, I checked out the Trilogy on the 13th. I had hoped by reading it I could take my mind off the events that had and were happening. I read a few pages, put it down and havn't touched it since. Haven't done much but sit in front of the T.V. and thinking. I never knew I could think such savage thoughts. It shakes me. I have been around the block a few times and have seen things that would curddle your blood. But what happened on the 11th, was beyond my experience. Mostly because it was so cold Blooded, planned and carried out apparently without any humanity in those who did it. I have lived in that part of the world and among those people the cluture is different, beliefs are different and circumstances of life are different but the people didn't seem inhuman. They were hardened by life's burden's but they still seemed human. I wonder where those people who did this horrible thing came from, certainly not from this earth.

Tiger, my reaction has been similar. Through the weekend after the event occurred, I scarcely left the TV with CNN or MSNBC or one of the news channels. My enthuism for the New Mexico trip that was planned cooled to almost zero. As the new week began I began to try other regular TV and I too did some reading, John Adams in my case. I did not read many pages. The worst was the two late night shows, Leno and Letterman when they returned to the air last week. A comic trying to be serious as both did the first night was a real turn-off so far as I am concern. They got better as the week progressed though somehow I suspect it will be a while before we hear another George Bush joke from either. I am now beginning to feel a bit better and tomorrow I am leaving on the 900 mile driving trek to Red River.

I found the "John Adams" book very easy reading. I think the 700 pages will go quite easily and it is most interesting. When I get back, I will as I promised 3 weeks ago prepare a summary list of all of the Bligh/Bounty books that have been mentioned here.

Ahoy Matey's. Avast, and all of the type of Sea talk. Has our ship sprung a leak? Awfully quiet around here? Since the U.S. has started to take action I feel better and want to continue this discussion. Anyone with me?

Tiger Tom

I'm here, Cap'n, lead on! Just stay away from the gangplank, not sure we'll follow you that far!

I agree with you on all points!

ginny

I'm here in the galley.

Hate to say it, but this has slipped lower in the stack. Shipping News and John Adams are next chronologically. Will be interesting to see what our final reading list looks like.

I'm here too, back from vacation in the mountains last week. Since then I've been reading and priming for "John Adams." That book is a good one and its 700 pages are quite easy to read. But I haven’t forgotten Bligh/Bounty though we still have lots of time to finish our planning.

In particular I am looking forward to this discussion because it looks to me like here instead of discussing a single book, be are discussing a particular subject from a diverse array of books and other sources. Also we are taking into account the role fiction writers and films played in influencing the history. I think this is the first Senior’s Net discussion to try this method.

In New Mexico last week I was much impressed by the diverse multi- culture society of the region. There the Indian and Spanish past is healthy and vibrant and very much alive and well. I brought back four books, one a non-fiction history and three current fiction books built around the interface of the Indian, Spanish and Anglo culture. I will have more to say about this on the History board. It would seem to offer an interesting follow-up to our experiment here the study of a unique culture from both non-fiction history and fiction sources

I was just checking to see if anyone was still here and still interested. True, John Adams is next. You all might peek into the Democracy discussion they are trying to organize and discussion of the Durant Civilization series, all thiirteen (13) books. Should be very interesting. Robby is trying to find if there will be enough interest to justify a discussion. So far there have been seven (7) who have indicated interest.

Tiger Tom

Hi all,

I just got here so I'm not going to try to catch up with the Mutiny series but I am very interested in John Adams. I have the book sitting here cozy like on the to be read shelf. I've been wanting to dig in, I bought it in July?

I do really enjoy history reading so I'm looking forward to the book and discussion.

becky

Welcome bekka, we are happy to have you aboard both for the Bligh/Bounty planning and its discussion that begins early next year and also for the "John Adams" (the 2nd US President) discussion beginning Nov 15th. Incidently you probably already know, but there was a "John Adams" involved in the Bounty episode. He was one of the mutineers. If my memory is correct, he was the last surviving member of the mutiny crew that sailed the Bounty to Pictairn Island.

Becky! Welcome, welcome!

We are delighted to welcome you to our Books & Literature sections and not to fear, the Bligh, as our Harold notes (no kidding, Harold, really? That's amazing, wonder if they were any relation to each other??!!??) will not sail until February of 2002, we're just getting a running start and planning here in public!

I hope you love the John Adams and want to sign on with Cap'n Bligh, too, when his time rolls around!

Hope to see you then,

ginny

Op's despite the fact that I did look it up, I still misspelled "Pitcairn" in my message #90. Sorry about that, I'll have to write the word 90 times at the blackboard.

Regarding the John Adams involved in the Bounty mutiny, one of my books notes the name as an alias for a Alex. Smith. Let's save further comment for the discussion.

Reports are that all is not well at present on Pitcairn Island. The islands affairs are administered by the British High Commissioner here in New Zealand. The island suffers from over population, and many of them have settled here in NZ or Australia.

There seem to be crimes of a sexual nature, involving 20 persons on the island, and 2 Foreign Office police from Britain are investgating. They have requested help from NZ police, and also three Auckland lawyers are travelling to the island by container ship,(the only way to get there) to investigate the scene. The trial is to be held here in Auckland, as a fair jury could not be found with such a small community on the island.-- Trevor

Wasn't that one of the inherent problems with the crew that landed in Tahiti? The men were taking over the women and the male islanders were not too pleased. Was it Tahiti or was that Pitcairn?

Alf, as I remember the Northrop & Hall story in the third novel of the trilogy, the appropriation of the women by the mutineers was the factor that brought about the native uprising that resulted in the deaths of the mutineers.

3Kings, welcome to the discussion. You give an interesting report. From time to time as the events play-out please keep us posted on the trial and events. Also during the course of the discussion any other input you may be able to provide on the contemporary islanders will be most appropriate and welcome.

I was surprised to note in 3kings message of an overpopulation problem; the report of other problems is not, unfortunately, a shock. Dea Birkett observed a great deal of tension on Pitcairn in her interesting book, Serpent in Paradise. She lived, briefly, on Pitcairn and wrote in 1997 about that stay. Although it is quite likely that she caused some of the tension simply by being there, it is apparently not now a serene place, probably never was. My visit there was some time ago, now, (1997) but there were 6 empty houses and most important, empty desks in the school. The schoolteacher's son was anxious to go back home to New Zealand to find more friends and playmates, and typically, Mrs Warren's 4 daughters left and had not been together as a family for almost 10 years. It is quite likely that a modest population increase could cause strain, but I am surprised to learn this so soon after I heard concern for the future from a Warren an Adams and a Christian.

Alf, Harold,

Although the women are innocent, bless them. The fact remains that their mere existence usually is the main factor in many disputes: You can have an island full of men and they will find some way of at least wary tolerance if nothing else. Many times they will eventually work together. However, drop a female in their midst and it is war time. Can't be helped, It is the deepest instinct of mankind: survival of species and one's immortality thorugh children. It doesn't make sense to females but perfect sense to males. So, this is really the reason for the Mutiny and the trouble on Pictairn Island, women. Mutiny because the men on the ship wanted to go back to the island and the women there; and battle on Pictairn because too few women and too many males. No one wants to share and everyone wants to possess. Hell, men, kingdoms and empires have been raised and fallen because of and over a woman. That wasn't one of the reasons, it was THE reason for the trouble on the Island. Look at the snorting, pawing, and competing among young males when around female(s.) One of the nice things about growing Old(er) is that is behind the male for the most part.

Tiger Tom: this was extremely well portrayed in the movie with Mel Gibson and anthony Hopkins. You could smell the lust of the men and Capt. Bligh did not approve.

In real Life bligh was pretty much the way he was protrayed in the Films. Not a prude but a man loyal to his wife. He viewed the men's obsession with females as detrimental to good order and discipline. I imagine that he was aware of men's nature but he believed that they, like him, could control that. On the HotBot site noted above there is a defense of Bligh by one lawyer and a defense of Christian by another. the lawyer for Bligh cited this very aspect as one of the causses of the mutiny. His description of the women of Tahiti is not very flattering.
being male I was not aware that the lust of the men came across that much in the film.

Tom

Being female, I couldn't miss it!

Alf,

I think we can agree, directly or indirectly, women played a role in the Mutiny. It may be that the last Movie acknoledged this more that the previous films. Since It has been a long time since I read the books and since the books were written in a different age with different views on what should and shouldn't be written about. I doubt if the subject of the Tahitian women was broached in any more than a glancing way. As I have said, one of Blighs Lawyers certainly emphasized it. I suspect that there was more than friction between Bligh and Christian which brought about the Mutiny. Although, that seems to be the thrust of the Films. Will you be bringing this up the in the Discussion when it starts?

Tom

I don't know Tom. It depends on whether it becomes apparent thru the reading of the novel. Remember, the movie I viewed had Mel Gibson frolicing in the hay with the King's daughter. Hello honey. So maybe it was my wishful imagination, huh?

Didn't Banks use the beautiful and alluring women of Tahaiti as a causative factor in the mutinous act, in defense of Bligh?

For those of you who want a view of Tihiti and its culture a hundred years after the Bounty there are two accounts by the French artist Paul Gauguin. Of these, the first is "Noa Noa," a short account of his Journey to and life on Tihiti in the 1890's and his interface with the cultures (Native and French Colonial). The second is a longer book, an almost stream of consciousness account of his phychic entitled, "Intimate Journal." From these accounts, particularly "Noa Noa," the modern U.S. term, "Sexual Preditor," I fear would be the term applied to Paul by mainstream American society today.

Alf,

Yes, Banks did use the Tahitian women as a causitive factor inthe Mutiny. I thought I mentioned that in my posts. He cited other ships which had called in Tahiti which too had problems with the men because they did not want to leave Tahiti and the Tahitian women. There were (almost) mutinies on a few of those ships. Banks cited this as a factor in the Bounty Mutiny.
Wasn't your imagination at all. Gibson was having it on with the King's daughter and the other men of the Bounty were also having affairs witht the Tahitian women. Remember when the Mutineers returned to Tahiti Christian (Gibson) said that one of the reasons the Mutineers returned besides stocking up on food was to "Take our Women and depart"
Of course, the movie with Laughton and Gable certainly did even mention things like that, did it?

Tom

Harold you are right about Paul. He did avail himself of what was offered in Tahiti. I think that Robert Louis Stevenson also visited Tahiti and took up with a thirteen year old girl. I guess the age of consent was a little different with the Tahitians.

Oh please don't remove any of these URLs. I love to go thru every couple of days and read something else in re. to the Bounty.

Skip this if you have read it elsewhere.

I have sent notices, for those interested in continuing to receive it to REPLY .... since email addresses come and go are changed and boxes get full.

But I have not heard from a lot of people who post here regularly or the lurkers that are here.

SO .... if you still want Book Bytes.....
Click on my name.
Click on my email address
Send me an email with Book Bytes in the subject line
And I will add your name to the new list.

I will be leaving for NY State to spend the holidays with my daughters and grandchildren. In tow I shall take my Trilogy and read it along the way. Did I tell you that I had ordered a book by Glynn Christian? He is an ancestor of Fletcher and I was most excited when the parcel came. The name of the book is "A Fragile Paradise"? When I opened it I realized that they had sent me the wrong book! Yikes. I was not a happy camper. The Blue Highways instead of A Fragile Paradise, that I had ordered. NO- NO NO!!!! Is anybody other than me excited about our starting this selection? Come on February!

I'm excited. Found a 1936 copy of Nordhoff-Hall's Mutiny. Dening's Mr. Bligh's Language is a real treat. His style is dry, academic, but he has a dry wit and uses understatement to make his points. I feel like I am truly participating in his exploration and discovery of the Mutiny and its men. Will post a brief except later, the book is at the office where I am reading it in small smippets. So, Harold and Tiger, what are we starting with? N-H's Mutiny? Or the fascimile? Or are we all going to discuss the same book? I've lost track of where we are in this epochal discussion group format. But I'm eager to get started.

I come from a long line of sailors, merchant men and lovers of the sea. I have never in my life heard of larboard. Is that the same as starboard? I though it was a type when I was reading yesterday but it appeared many times. Can you help me out here guys? I also don't undrstand the idea of warping a plank. I thought warping was tieing up or securing the ship. Be patient with me. I've been reading and living this trip with these guys and have just been casted off the ship with Bligh, by this mutinous lot.

Alf,

Sorry to hear that you were sent the wrong book. Glynn Christian has an e-mail address that can be found on that HotBot site. One can order his book by e-mail. Is that how you did it? Yo might send him a rocket (as the english say.) You can probably get things worked out to your satisfaction and mayhaps start a conversation with him. that would be interesting. He might have some knowledge that isn't in print or generally known that might help our discussions. I BELIEVE (but am not absolutely sure) that Larboard is opposite of Starboard. Don't quote me though. I am sure that Harold would know. I am originally from North Dakota so not many Sailors in the family. Never heard of warping a plank. Yes, I too believe that warping a boat means to tie it up to a pier or whatever.
Mrs Watson, Harold and the Tiger have been talking about this discussion and we more or less agree that there is a whole lot of Literature on this subject. It would be difficult to find one book that would cover things adequately. So we are thinking of opting for a discussion of the subject(s) Bligh, Christian, the Mutiny, Bligh's journey across the Pacific in an open boat, Pictairn Island and what finally happened to all of them. Large subject, true. As far as reading, We may be able to agree on a few books as a foundation to build on. Don't know, am waiting to hear from Harold. I think that participants could read other books that they find interesting that they can report to the Discussion group. what information that those book contain can be added to the discussion.
One thing I have found looking at various sites on the net is that this is a subject that has aroused a lot interest in many people over the years and that there are many groups discussing it at the time.
What I hope we can gain from this discussion is whether we feel that Bligh was a man as depicted in books and films or was he a good, decent man, who got into trouble because rather than being cruel was too kind to his crew.
We have a bit of time left before the discussion starts. Would love to hear what you think we should be discussing and what books we should discuss. We are open to suggestion(s)

Tiger Tom

I think the trilogy is a must Tom. I haven't made up my mind yet about Bligh. In the Mutiny on the Bounty he is depicted by our young Captain as an arrogant, fiercly insolent leader. In the movie , played by Anthony Hopkins, I felt sorry for him.

I've ordered all the videos in the heading which are available and an extra one not listed to compare, won't we have fun with this? We can ship them out to whoever would like them and have a true film/ book experience.

I agree that at least the first book of the Nordoff Hall Trilogy should not be missed. (They're like Lay's potato chips, you can't read just one!)

My email has been hopelessly down but is now back up and I hope to be able to catch up to those corresponding with me soon.

Tiger Tom I like your assessment of the goals of our voyage here and I'm really looking forward to it, I think it would be very interesting to hear what descendants on both sides have to say and we'll now attempt to get our discussion here listed on the Bounty pages Tom has provided....more later...

ginny

Yeah Ginny is aboard too. She has sailed before with the Ancient Mariner. OOPs, we know what fate befell him -don't we?

Here is a short bibliography of principal HMS Bounty source publications. There are links to the B & N catalog from which additional information on particular publications are available. Also included are my comments on the importance of the book to our discussion. If any one has additions to recommendations, let me know. Also I will make a couple of minor comment changes shortly. Short Bounty Bibliography

Ginny, would you arrange to link this in the heading. I suggest you wait to see what revisions occur before transferring it to the senior’s net server.

I do not expect any one to read all of this material. Please consider it a buffet line from which each individual can pick and choose her/his choice depending on the individual's appetite and taste. I do sort of like the "Captain Bligh and Mr. Christian" title because it appears to be an acceptable overview of much of the many Bounty events. Therefore I recommend it to all participants. Also as Ginny has said do read at least one of the trilogy novels. I suggest the first volume if you choose only one. The other items are up to you. While some are out of print, I suspect most of these will be available at moderate size libraries.

As usual I am involved in several diverse work projects right now and find my multi tasking capabilities somewhat inadequate. It is time that all of us interested in this Bounty event prepare for the discussion and I for one am looking forward to it. In the near term Tiger Tom and I will make further comments/proposals/suggestions concerning the procedure. Meanwhile it is time for the serious reading to begin!

Alrighty then! Let the reading begin! Do I hear a drum roll?

Here is a short bibliography of principal HMS Bounty source publications. There are links to the B & N catalog from which additional information on particular publications are available. Also included are my comments on the importance of the book to our discussion. If any one has additions to recommendations, let me know. Also I will make a couple of minor comment changes shortly. Short Bounty Bibliography

Ginny, would you arrange to link this in the heading. I suggest you wait to see what revisions occur before transferring it to the senior’s net server.

I do not expect any one to read all of this material. Please consider it a buffet line from which each individual can pick and choose her/his choice depending on the individual's appetite and taste. I do sort of like the "Captain Bligh and Mr. Christian" title because it appears to be an acceptable overview of much of the many Bounty events. Therefore I recommend it to all participants. Also as Ginny has said do read at least one of the trilogy novels. I suggest the first volume if you choose only one. The other items are up to you. While some are out of print, I suspect most of these will be available at moderate size libraries.

As usual I am involved in several diverse work projects right now and find my multi tasking capabilities somewhat inadequate. It is time that all of us interested in this Bounty event prepare for the discussion and I for one am looking forward to it. In the near term Tiger Tom and I will make further comments/proposals/suggestions concerning the procedure. Meanwhile it is time for the serious reading to begin!

I wouldl ike to give you a bit of Dening, the flavor of his writing. He has described how the men were tattooed, noting that the youngest, 15 yr-old Ellison, also was tattooed. He, Ellison, was on deck when the mutiny occurred, and, Dening says, "The mutiny was over before Ellison knew what was happening...There, suddenly, was Bligh, bare-assed, hisnightshirt caught in the ropes which bound his wrists behind. And Bligh, even in this absurd situation...snapped an order to the distracted Ellison to attend the helm...Ellison could not know that where he stood, what he held, whether he smiled or wept, what he said would become parables of something else. He could not know that out of all the sights and sounds that engulfed him in confusion and fear someone would make history and hang him for it..." When Dening described the tattoos, he noted that Ellison had on his arm simply the date the Bounty first saw Tahiti, 29 October 1792, remarking that Ellison himself lived through only four anniversaries of that date, Christian was mere months away from his own murder, that 17 of the 62 men were dead or soon would be by the time Ellison was hung. (p36-37, Mr. Bligh's Bad Language, Greg Dening, Cambridge University Press, 1992)

Ginny

I noticed that you did not have listed the movie Mutiny on the bounty starring Marlon Brando as Mr Christian and an English actor (whose name escapes me at the moment) as Captain bligh. It came between the Laughton/Gable movie and the Hopkins?gibson version. It might be interesting to you to compare the different Bligh's as portrayed by the three actors. I actually believe that the Mr. Christian role was played the same way by all three of the actors who portrayed him. Bligh seemed to be seen in a different light by each of the actors who played the role.
You know, I wonder how much of our attitudes are colored by having read the trilogy and seen the movies before reading any of the true story and history of this incident and its characters. Can we put aside the image of the evil brute that Bligh's is depicted as in the books and movies which is in our memories and judge Bligh fairly on the basis of what we read later that may be nearer the truth?

Mel Gibson played the handsome Christian Fletcher, with a fervor.

Here I go again, with references to Dening. He portrays Bligh as a man on his way up, attached to the coattails of Cook, until Cook's death. The Bounty trip was mercantile, not naval, and Bligh would profit by its success. The men were from the merchant marine, not the navy. Dening is setting up the parameters of the dispute unlike anything I had ever heard about.

Thank you Mrs Watson for your comments on the Dening book. I had left this out of the bibliography apparently on the assumption from the title "Captain Bligh's Bad Language" that it was a thesis on naughty 18th century Royal Navy language. I see now that it is an important and readily available source. I have now added it to the Short Bounty Bibliography

Can anyone else suggest sources to add to the Bibliography?

Mrs, Watson,

Bligh and Cook were in the Royal Navy. Cook requested Bligh because he (Bligh) was the best Navigator and cartagrapher in the R.N. at his grade that Cook could find or want. Some of the Charts that Bligh made around the Hawaiian Islands are still in use today. They may, now, have been replaced by Satellite charts, but for a man confined to just eyeball and soundings those were damned good charts. Cook, was one of the most sought after Captains to work under. He was one of the foremost Sailors of his day and was highly thought of by the Admiralty. His books on his discovery trips sold very well and made him wealthy. Cooks only quibble about Bligh was that Bligh would lose his temper with the Contractors: they used poor wood on repairs on the ships. Delivered rotten meat to the ship, inflated costs, etc. Problem was, that all of the Contractors were Lord this and Lord that, in other words the Establishment. Bligh's raging at them put the trip, Captain Cook and himself in Jeapordy.
The Bounty Cruise was mercatile in that the Breadfruit was to go to Plantations in the West Indies and the trip was the idea of these plantation owners. However, the trip was intiated by the Royal Navy, the Bounty was acquired and outfitted by the Royal Navy and put under the command of a Royal Navy Officer (Bligh) and sailed under Royal Navy Regulations. I am not certain but I believe that many of the men were Impressed Sailors from the Royal Navy. If the Cruise had been entirely Mercantile the Planters would have been responsible for the costs which they did not want to assume. This is the reason that the Royal Navy was brought in, The Taxpayer got to foot the bill. (sound familiar)

I think that the first of the Trilogy stories is extremly well written. I was at the edge of my seat through out the whole of the read. I loved it! what ever else I read, I find my loyalties swaying from one guy to another.

Tiger: I will reread that part, something I've left out. Bligh was the Purser, and had an interest in the profits. Dening makes the difference between Commissioned and Warrant Officers extremely clear, and the inevitable conflict between the two. Bligh was the only commissioned officer; there were five warrant officers. Harold: Greg Dening is Emeritus Professor of History at the University of Melbourne whose education includes philosophy, religion, history and anthropology. The book is a delight, with detailed drawings of the Bounty, portraits of some of the principles, including 9 of the 12 court martial judges, period illustrations, maps and 20 pages of notes plus a 30 page reference bibliography.

Mrs. Watson,

Bligh may have been the Pursur. I have never read that before in any of my readings. He may have had a profit Motive that wasn't unusual in that day and age. I do know that he was a Commisioned Royal Navy Officer put in command of the Bounty by the Admiralty. That the voyage was to bring back Breadfruit Plants to the West Indies so that a cheap source of food could be had to feed slaves working on Sugar Plantations in the British West Indies.

That the owners of these Plantations approached the Admiralty about this because they, the Planters, did NOT want to bear the costs. Political influence was brought to bear on the Royal Navy and the Voyage of the Bounty was the result.

I am not sure that there would have been any profit in it for anyone but the Planters, eventually. Certainly, as with any deal like that, the Planters weren't going to reimburse the Navy for any costs incurred. The reason for bringing in the Navy in the first place was to avoid costs.

(think of this as someting like the U.S. Government funding the costs of Drug research and handing the patents over to large pharmeceutical compaines without cost to those companies on the promise that they won't charge too much for these drugs when they are brought to market with no reimbursement to the Government for the research, which happens all of the time.)

This was not a voyage funded by investors nor were the Breadfuit Plants going to be sold when they arrived in the West Indies.

Tiger Tom

On the facsimile page link above I am having trouble scrolling any further than the first part of page one.

Andrea, only the part you see is reproduced? It is intended for those who may have one of the many many strangely titled copies of Bligh's account to compare the original with what they have, so they can be sure it's the REAL Bligh and not some adaptation or fictionalized account.

He's got a spare uncompromising way of speaking which I really like. I love all the information presented here, and I hope when the discussion actually begins (we'll have a brand new discussion, this one is the preparation one) that you all have made copies of your fascinating facts, we may want to refer to them again, (or we could leave this discussion up and refer to it, whichever way you would like to go?)

I have on order all of the movies available above and one which is not, and have written about two more: one, a five hour documentary on Bligh (I can't imagine that, can you?) and one produced for Swiss TV and never aired. In addition I'm kinda interested in another one on Pitcairn Island Today, just out of curiosity. I'm indebted to Tiger Tom for these sources.

I've gotten a bit confused over all the reams of information available here and have doubled quite a bit but it's truly overwhelming and really apprciate Harold's and Tiger Tom's careful eye in winnowing out the best for us here. Harold's Bibilography is in the heading now, and Tiger Tom noticed that this discussion is now listed on Google, as a result of the SeniorNet new Index, and so are all of our other Books discussions, so that's very fine news today.

We are blessed lately with a huge influx of new readers, and I hope we can keep every one of them.

If you have a VCR, pretty soon you will have the opportunity to view at least 5 videos of the depictions of this historic event, so stay tuned, we'll get up a sign up sheet and see how Hollywood and the foreign moviemakers have treated Cap'n Bligh.

Plenty of time, if you're reading this, and the least bit interested, to sign on board!

It's just what we need now, a real...."hero?" conquering impossible circumstances.

ginny

Here are a few suggestions on how to use the Short Bounty Biography now linked in the heading. There are many possible source references available on the Bounty affair. None of us are going to read them all. The short bibliography lists seven sources most of which will be readily available to participants either by inexpensive paperback purchase or from libraries.

Each participant can pick and choose one or more of the books listed. The reading of additional books is up to each individual participating. I recommend everyone read one of the overview histories and I have read and recommended #1, “Captain Bligh and Mr Christian. To this I would add at least one of the #2, Nordhoff and Hall fictional trilogy titles, if only one, read the first volume, “Mutiny on the Bounty.” Other overview histories, that I am currently less familiar with include #3 “Mr. Bligh’s Bad Language,” #5 “Bligh- The Whole Story of the Mutiny,” and #6 “The Bounty Mutiny”(Ginny has mentioned possible inaccuracies in this text). Also #7, “Captain Bligh’s Portable Nightmare” This history centers on events following the mutiny principally Bligh’s open boat voyage to Timor, his return to England and later attempts to arrest the Mutineers and return them to England.” This means it is not a complete overview history of the entire event. Book #4, “The Mutiny of the Bounty” is not currently in print. I happen to have a copy so I will use since the author’s position as an early 18th century Admirality officer makes it a near primary source. Others may find this book available at their local libraries.

I have been browsing the Net looking for Discussion Groups on Bligh or the Bounty. In these wanderings I have come across a lot of writings on the Bounty Incident and on the main charachers: Bligh, Christian and Heywood (a midshipman who was dragged back to England, tried and was found Guilty, sentenced to Die, but was saved by his friends. He went on to a long and honorable Career in the Royal Navy.)

In all of these I can find only agreement on a few things: There was a Ship named the Bounty, It was Commanded by a man named Bligh, there was a Mr. Christian; there was a Mutiny lead by Mr. Chrisitan; Bligh took an open book across 4000 some odd miles across the Pacific; and the Mutinerrs wound up on Pitcairn Island.

I have found so many different versions of the events leading up to the Mutiny, the Personality of Bligh and Christian; What happened after the Mutiny and on Pitcairn Island, etc. that most of the time I wonder if I am reading about the same event(s.)

There is very little agreement on almost anything. It depends on who is writing what. I have read that Bligh was a Genteel, Honorable man who wouldn't hurt a fly to Bligh was a foaming at the mouth madman. Christian hasn't fared any better.

The only thing that seems consistent has been the Movie treatments of the incident and those were based on a fictional Account written by Norduff and Hall.

The more I get into this the more interested I am in rally finding out as much of the truth as I can. I hope all of you will become as interested.

Tiger Tom

Why does "Nordoff and Hall" ring a bell when someone says Mutiny on the Bounty? I was an avid reader in childhood and read all of their work, but that was a very long time ago. I also read about Nordoff and Hall themselves. That was so long ago.

I volunteer at the Columbia River Maritime Museum store in Astoria, Oregon and am around exhibits and books on both historical and commercial marine activity. There is much controversy over Captain Bligh. My own great-grandfather jumped ship from a British-Man-of-War at Esquimalt, BC. What brutal lives the deep-water sailors led.

I will search the CRMM store books and library for information.

Bligh seemed to always have problems with those under him, more than those over him. Wasn't he appointed governor of New South Wales and then arrested for his harsh treatment of the civil and military officers and after serving a sentance of two years in prison, was sent back to England under arrest, only to be ranked a rear admiral?

Ellen! Welcome! we are delighted to see you here, and what a fabulous volunteering job you have, we will be hanging on tenterhoooks to hear what you can share, this is so fun!

I don't know, that's interesting, why would a person have more trouble with the men under him than those who were over him? The Nordoff Hall is a trilogy about the Mutiny, but I know nothing myself about them, please enlighten us.

Wow, I had not heard about that New South Wales stuff, nor the prison sentence, thank you for bringing that to our attention. Can you supply more details about your own great grandfather's jumping ship?

I have ridden the train west along the Columbia River, it's quite impressive, does the museum deal with all maritime events or just those involving the area? Last spring I went to Greenwich and saw the museum there for the first time and it was quite moving and exciting, you'd not think so, but it was.

Does the Museum in Astoria have anything on Bligh?

So glad you've joined us!

ginny

Ellen, permit me to welcome you also. This is my second opportunity to welcome you in the last half hour as it was just my privilege to make a similar post on the John Adams Board.just moments ago. We hope you will be a participant here also.

I too would like to know more about your great grandfather. In what year would that have been?

Ellen,

Welcome. I too would like to hear the story of your ancestor. Also would like to hear more Of Bligh in N.S.W. What you have said is something I have never heard before. would be very interested in it and any citations you can give.

Again welcome.

Harold,

Been waiting for an e-mail from you.

Tom

Ellen, aren't you our glorious story-teller from Greatest Generation discussion days? New heels and bright pink coat, standing alone on the Portland wharf, waving your hat at the returning battleship of cheering soldiers??? That Ellen? Oh, what a wonderful addition to this discussion!!

Betty

It's interesting to read about the Pitcairn Island descendents of the Bounty crew and Tahitian Islanders that is divided between Pitcairn and Norfolk Islands. The division was first made back in 1856 and communication and visiting still goes on between the two islands, even though they are some distance apart. I remember when the National Geograpic did a story on marine archeology on the burned-out Bounty in Bounty Bay.

There is a Bligh island on the west coast of Canada that I am not sure if it is named after Bligh by capt. Cook or not. I think that Bligh was an officer under Cook.

Okay, okay, yes, that's me on the dock in Potland.

Was Capt. Bligh really only eight years old when he first entered the British Navy???? If Bligh was born in 1754 and enlisted in 1762, well, that's what I calculate!

Is that how Bligh started out? How did he get any education, which he must have had to rise to the high rank that he did. Jack London wrote about a very early life at sea for so many of the deep-water sailors at that time. As he had Capt. Larson say in the story "The Sea Wolf"-"Of going out with the boats from the time that I could crawl. Of myself, unable to read or write, a cabin-boy at the mature age of ten on the coastwise, old-country ships? Of which the rough fare and rougher usage, where kicks and blows were bed and breakfast and took the place of speech, and fear and hatred and pain my only soul-experiences? I do not care to remember. A madness comes upon by brain even now as I think of it". Was that Bligh's beginning? Or did he start out as part of the officer class? I have to research that one if there are any records. Bligh's early childhood.

Harold, My g-grandfather was fourteen when he entered the British Navy as a cabin boy and was a British tar on a Man-Of-War at the time he went overboard at the age of twenty, and that was by all records in 1866. He had spent six years in one of the toughest navy environments in the world.

Ellen, I suspect an eight-year-old beginning in the RN would have been a bit young and in the officer class in particular, uncommon. We will have to check that out during our discussion.

Your grandfather was in the Royal Navy at a time when it was changing from Sail to steam. The last Naval battle fought under sail was in the 1820's. It was an allied British/French squadron engaged against a Turkish fleet in the Mediterranean. It was a skirmish coming out of the war that resulted in the independence of Greece.

I have an interesting photograph book of Royal Navy ships during the 1850 - 1900 period. Your g grandfather may have served on some the earlier ones. Also I have mentioned on the History Book Forum another book, "The Great Iron Ship" the history of the Great Eastern, the first prototype modern luxury liner. You may remember the name as it was the vessel that laid the first Atlantic telegraph cable connecting North America and Europe.

Ellen,

In some instances, I am not sure how often, Eight year olds were taken in as "Midshipmen" also, there were groups called Powder Monkey's, and the Captain's and Officer's "Cabin boys." Some of them "Could" be as young as eight.

It was, however, highly unusual for one so young to be taken on ship to go to sea. Usually, the starting age would be 10 or eleven for Powder Monkey's and Cabin Boys and 12 for MIdshipmen.

Midshimen were considered as "Officer's" in respect to the crew. this gave them some protection from predation of the men who were without females for long periods of time. The Powder Monkey's and Cabin boys did not enjoy that protection. A clever Cabin boy would hook up with either the Captain or one of the Officers.

Remember Winston Churchill's description of the Royal Navy? "Rum, Sodomy and the Lash." That was very true in Bligh's Royal Navy.

BTW, MIdshipment came from the better class. Powder Monkey's and Cabin Boys from the poor and very poor.

Education? there were a very few cases of a Man going from "Before the Mast" to an Officer or Captain (Usually in the Merchant Marine) he had all the education he needed working his way up. He would have learned how the Ship worked from top to bottom; how to command; in short everything he needed to know to run a ship except Trig which was needed for Navigation but that could have been taught aboard ship too.

What need, in the days of Sail, would such a man need of a formal education? His life and world were the sea and his ship and he got all of the education for that life and world at sea.

Tiger Tom

The wonderful book, "Historical Atlas of the Pacific Northwest" by Derek Hayes and published by Sasquatch Books, gives information on Bligh. It states in the third chapter, (James Cook's Third Voyage Reaches the Pacific Northwest) that after Cook's death in the Sandwich Islands, Captain Charles Clarke assumed command. The ship returned directly to Alaskan waters to determine for sure that there was no passage through the Bering Strait. Clerke then died (In Alaskan waters?) and John Gore, an American and Cook's first lieutenant took command. "Both Clerke and Gore received a great deal of help from William Bligh, later of mutiny on the Bounty fame, who was a brilliant navigator". William Bligh would have been around twenty-five then.

The British-Man-of-War that my g-grandfather was serving on was used, I suspect, more for general police action in the Pacific than anything else. The ship had gone around the Horn, then out to the Sandwich Islands where the Captain had supervised a hanging, and sailed on to Esquimalt, the British naval base just outside of Victoria, BC in relation to the "Pig War" on San Juan Island. My g-grandfather never spoke about the sodomy part of British naval service, at least as far as the grandkids know, but he sure did talk about the rum and the lash. That's what happened to him. He was caught smuggling rum on board and was up for the lash when he and others deserted ship.

The general story is that nine men went overboard in a longboat and rowed all night over to the American side of the Strait of Juan de Fuca to Port Townsend, Washington Territory, USA.

There is still evidence of the changeover from sail to steam in this area. The British bark, the "Peter Iredale" one of the finest sailing ships at the time and built in 1890, sailed up on Clatsop Spit, on the Oregon side of the Columbia River mouth in 1906. All aboard were removed without indident and then rumors spread that the owners had the ship wrecked on purpose to collect insurance as they were being driven out of business by steamships. Change-it is ever constant.

Ellen, how fascinating, I can smell the sea in your very remarks! hahahaa You will be an invaluable resource, I didn't know that about the shared "bounty," well done!! Thank you for bringing that here.

---

I hope you all have dusted off your VCR's hahahaah I have now on order a 5 1/2 hour documentary about Bligh and the Rolf Harris book on Bligh Hero or Villain, so that will be my supplementary reading gift to the group.

I'm going to read volume I of the Nordoff and Hall, Bligh's own account, the Harris book, and hopefully one more from the list Harold put (Short Bibliography) in the heading taking the extreme opposing side.

Not sure who said it above, but you really would never know you WERE reading the same accounts of the same event. Maybe Bligh was just not good at commanding people, some people can't lead to save their lives and operate best by themselves, you see it all the time.

ginny

Tiger Tom, just catching up, I do have the Brando movie on order as well and soon will change the heading I think to reflect the movies we do have available to lend here, I think we can list those we don't have too so that people who can get one will.

I had no idea that so many movies were made of this incident till I went looking for them.

I love to collect performances, I myself collect depictions of "A Christmas Carol," and delight in comparing them (the serious ones, that is, I draw the line at Mickey Mouse and the female Scrooges) and the comparisons are startling. Some have a better Marley, some a better Scrooge, some a better Cratchit and some explain the original book better.

WE can do the same with the Bligh movies, now arriving daily chez Anderson.

ginny

Around 1800, and for some time thereafter, sons of officers in the British navy, as young as 10, often continued their education onboard, especially advanced math. Calculus and other math was needed to become proficient in navigation. To reach "captain," the lowest rank to govern a ship (even though all the other advancing levels of "captain" were still informally called "captain" onboard), there were tough, paper and pencil tests that had to be passed at headquarters in England, most of them navigation problems that had to be solved with advanced math. Who taught these courses onboard? Usually, the captain, but sometimes the midshipmen who were getting ready to pass their own tests.

Onboard, the young men could learn the ropes...literally, learn the ropes. That's where the expression was born.

The lash was also called the "cat" and the "cat-o-nine," because cat tails were often used to lash someone for an infraction. Letting the cat out of the bag referred to a midshipman getting the cat tails out of the bag in which they were stored.

Betty

Betty, how interesting, thank you for that, no wonder Bligh was so skillful at navigating that immense distance, he was well trained!

ginny

On our 1485 mile trek north to NY State I was able to finish the last story in Nordoff and Hall's Trilogy. I loved that book and will never pass it on. My favorite was the Mutiny, the 1st story. I enjoy the different viewpoints that each story lends giving the "real" story an air of questionable points for us to discuss.

"O the blazing tropic night, when the wake's a welt of light That holds the hot sky tame, And the steady forefoot snores through the planet- powdered floors Where the scared whale flukes in flame Her plates are scarred by the sun, dear lass, And her ropes are taut with the dew, For we're booming down on the old trail, our own trail, the out trail, we're sagging south on the Long Trail-the trail that is always new."

Now I'm off on our trail to research the mutiny on the Bounty.

I just noticed that the Mel Gibson, Anthony Hopkins BOUNTY is on the television tonight on "WE" channel on Direct TV. It begins at 8 PM Central Time....or at least it does for me. That's 2 hours from now.

Betty

This morning I caught the last half, on the Biography Channel, of the Biography of Captain Bligh. Naturally it included the Mutiny on the bounty. The program was made in 1996 for the A&E Television Channel

I am beginning to despair of ever learning about the Mutiny, Bligh, and the events that took place before and after.

Almost 200 years after the event, decades and decades of research and study, mountains of writings. No one can agree on almost ANYTHING concerning Bligh, the Mutiny, or the events before and after.

Take one small thing: I have read that when Bligh was put in the boat with however many men (No agreement as to how many) he had either a Sextant and Compass and NO Chronometer; a Sextant and Chronometer and NO compass; ONLY a Sextant and No Compass or Chronometer.

For Gods sake, how can we make heads or tails of this when supposedly learned men can write such varying descriptions of the same event given the amount of Data available to them?

In this program it was stated that after Bligh returned to England and his story of the Mutiny got out, that the Christian family set out to blacken Blighs name and reputation. In this they were very successful. In other words what we hear of Bligh being such a Monster was made up by the Christian family and spread about. Yet the people who made the program ignored that and repeated the tales the Christian family spread about Bligh.

It is true as somebody said: a lie will go around the world while truth is still putting on its boots." Also, it is true that when someone tells something good about another person it is hard to hold anyone who is listening attention. However, someone who is telling some dirt (true or not) about someone else everyone in earshot is hanging on to every word. The dirt will be spread and gussied it up a bit with every telling until the dirt has reached monumental proportions. A good story about someone will die a dogs death, people rarely repeat something like that.

The Program showed a painting of Bligh when he was a young Officer. The man's face in the painting was: Young, Handsome, Intelligent, and kindly. the kind of a young man that one would not mind one's Daughter bringing home. I believe that the Artist who painted the portraint painted to flatter the Subject, but still the man in the Picture did not seem to be the Monster we read about in Norduff and Hall. I don't know about Handsome, But bligh was Intelligent and talented, if he was also Handsome, he would have been the object of envy and hatred among people will lesser traits.

I don't doubt that Bligh had unknown enemies who would have been glad to help the Christian family spread those tales in order to bring Bligh down.

It seems, to me, that there is more to this than a tale of a Monster of a Commander and a Crew drive to Mutiny.

Tiger Tom

.

Its raining again here in South Texas so I have stayed pretty close to home spending my time cleaning my book shelves. Last summer when we first discussed some of the primary sources available on the Bounty affair, a Logbook was mentioned. I think Ginny mention either that she had a copy of it or had seen a copy. I kept thinking that I had a log connected to the Bounty too and looked through my bookcases. Well I did not look good enough! I found it when I took all the books out for a dusting. It is an oversize format book and to fit it on the shelf I had it against the back of the shelf with other books in front of it. It is a 1980’s facsimile printing of Bligh’s log after the mutiny in the launch sailing to Timor. As a facsimile copy it is an apparent photographic reproduction of the hand written Log. As such it is not real easy to read, but with effort all or most of it is legible.

My copy is described as follows: Bligh, William, “The Mutiny On Board H.M.S. Bounty, 1789,” Pageminister Press in association with Argot Press & Mitchell Beazley, 1981, ISBN 086134 032 9. There is a seven page Printed Foreword, signed by a Stephen Walters. It is a day-to-day log beginning with the mutiny.

Ginny, how does this description compare with your book?

Tiger Tom, Did the TV program you mentioned say anything about Bligh’s commanding fighting ships in the Battles of Camperdown, and Battle of Copenhagen and being thanked personally by Nelson? This is stated in the small print on the dust cover of the book I described above. I think this is the first report of Bligh participating in battles that I have read.

Harold,

Yes, the show did mention that Bligh was in both those Capaigns and that Nelson singled out Bligh for praise after the Battle of Copenhagen, the ONLY time that Nelson ever did that.

Bligh was, if nothing else, a very good seaman and commander. In the Battle of Copenhagen he was the only Captain who placed his ship in exactly the postion that Nelson desired.

Tom

NO Harold, that sure does not resemble what I've got and I think you need to hang on to that thing, I can't buy it, myself, the ISBN number does not compute in any of the booksellers I use, and I'd say you have IT!!

Jealously,

ginny

Tiger and Ginny, thank you for your respose. The Bligh log I mentiond has a Half Price Book Price tag indicating I paid $9.98 for it. It is in new condition with a slick color dust cover and a leather or fake leather binding. It is over sized about 11 X 13 inches making it too tall to stand up on the book shelf so I stood it on its edge against the back of the shelf with other books in front of it. I too could not find this particular edition by this publisher in the B & N book dealers network though there were other books with the same title by other publishers.

An early entry lists the names of the loyal men in the boat that ought to be accurate. It also lists the mutineers that remainded on the Bounty. Somehow the pages and the handwriting script appear a bit too clean to be a photographic reproduction of the original. Also the text is somewhat easier for me to read than most old manuscripts that I have encountered in the past. All this suggests to me that it is not a photographic reproduction, but a printing using a script font. I will do further search to find more information on this book.

Harold, ginny,

Am off for California to see grandkids which I haven't seen in over a year. The Girl is Four (4) and the boy is (2). Christmas with the Daughter and Grandkids, Loverly. Will return on the 2nd of January, hopefully full of P and Vinegar.

This is opportune also: Opthomologist told me to back off using the Computer. I have glaucoma, Macular Degeneration Cataracts and Diabetes. Doesn't bode too well for the eyeballs. Been having pressure in right eye, which is my good one. SO, I have to give up the SN for a while. The time in California will be a welcome break. Will see what the Doctor says on return.

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Tiger Tom (Tom Trainer)

Tiger Tom have a great Xmas in California with your grand kids. When you return you will be welcome here to what ever extent you feel comfortable with.

Tom, people were just posting in another folder (library or fiction?) that losing the ability to read or losing eye function in some way was just about the worst thing that could happen to a reader. Your list of serious eye problems sounds daunting and I sure hope your time away takes some of the pressure off your eye.

For future reference, I know there are computers that "speak" what is written. I think it is IBM that offers that hardware...or would it be software. I don't know. I think it is software that writes out what you speak, and THAT has been greatly improved over time.

Betty

I just ordered The Last Mutiny: Further Adventures of Capt. Bligh. Has anyone read this one yet?

The Last Mutiny: Further Adventures of Capt. Bligh is another novel told as Bligh's reminisces of his career in the RN in his old age. B & N does not currently Stock this Book but it is apparently in print and available elsewhere. Click on the title above for reviews and comment on the book from the B & N catalog.

It appears to be another example of a novelist treatment of the historical subject. As such it like the Nordhoff & Hall novels it is of interest to this discussion.

Ok Harold! Thank you. As soon as she arrives I will fill you in on the contents. It will be coming Media Mail so give me a couple of weeks.

Good morning everyone on this bright, crispy Christmas day. I don't know if these books have been reviewed or discussed as I have been a away from the topic. But yesterday was my volunteer day at the Columbia River Maritime Museum and here is a list of the Bligh books that the the store has on the shelf. I tried to cruise through the postings but my eyes gave out, so could you perhaps tell me if these books have been discussed.

Mr. Bligh's Bad Language by Greg Dening

Captain Bligh and Mr. Christian by Richard Hough

Bligh! The Whole Story of the Mutiny Aboard H.M.S. Bounty by Sam McKinney

Hello Ellen. Thank you for bringing that to our attention. Yes, all three of the books that you've mentioned are above in the bibliography URL. We appreciate your interest and certainly hope that you'll join in with us when we begin this discussion. When I first began to read about this Mutiny, I thought that everyone was talking about a novel, a fictitious event that had transpired. Little did I know how interested I would become in the real story! I love the stories and marvel at the multi-faceted "truths" told in each one.

Ellen and all, I’m back after Xmas in North Texas where it was crisp and cool but since it remained dry there was no ice like last year. Yes Ellen as Alf has mentioned these books are on our bibliography that is linked in the heading. Also I will take the opportunity to link it again here: A Short Bounty Bibliography

It is time for all of us to choose the book/books that we are going to read. Our discussion is only a few days more than a month away. I am reading “Captain Bligh and Mr Christian,” by Richard Hough mentioned by Ellen above. While this book is not without fault it seems a pretty decent overview of the event. I also have read and will use the near primary source, the John Barrow book, “the Mutiny of the Bounty." I read all three of the trilogy a number of years ago and hope to refresh by reading some of this material again. Also I will be watching the three movies since last week I managed to get my lightening struck VCR functional again so far a playing tapes is concern. And Oh, I almost forgot, I also have “Captain Bligh’s Portable Nightmare” that I browsed pretty thoroughly last summer when this discussion first began.

Welcome back, Harold, it's good to have you back and your lightning rod VCR in commission again!

I imagine we'll all be gathering back here after the First of January.

Would it be of use to get up in the heading not as a link but in bold print the list of books and who is reading what? Of course anybody can read anything but it might be good to see what is not taken so somebody could cover that and what is?

I have the Portable Nightmare as well and will be reading Bligh's own account.

I also have on order the Rolf Harris Mutiny on the Bounty - Captain Bligh Hero or Villain?, and I've been waiting for it since December 13, hopefully it will come soon. So that's three for me and if I have time I will reread the Nordoff Hall first volume.

I know Andrea has read all three Nordoff and Halls and another one, not sure what that one is, and Mrs. Watson has read the Greg Dening Mr. Bligh's Bad Language: Passion, Power, and Theatre on the Bounty .

So why don't we all give our own lists and see how many books we ARE covering?

ginny

Short note.

I am in California where I a busy spoiling two (2) Grandchildren. Will be departing in two days and will log on when I get back to wet, rainy, cold Washington State. Have a Happy New Year. Made another one, just just 944 more to go. Bye from California

Tiger Tom

I am back in Washington State and already missing the Grandkids. That is the problem with having 1200 miles seperation. Their mother wishes we were closer too as, per usual, Grandparents make excellent Baby Sitters who come real cheap and are available at a moments notice. Where are we? Ginny, did you receive the VCR tapes yet? I believe that you were going to get that early version of the Bounty Mutiny, made in Austrailia, with Error Flynn as Christian. Did it ever arrive? if so, how was it? Different from the later versions? I believe you had also ordered some other tapes and a book?

Happy New year to all. Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom, welcome back. You sound like you had a wonderful Xmas visit with the grandkids. Right now after a 10 day Xmas cold spell, South Texas feels almost balmy under leaden, rainy skies as it tries to duplicate your Washington state weather pattern. Please enjoy a relaxing Starbucks ($3.00) coffee for me.

Harold,

Thanks for the Welcome. Unfortunately, nearest Starbucks is 40 miles away. So, will have to drink a cup of Folgers Breakfast Blend for you (few cents a cup.)

Will be sending you an e-mail after I have done a little reviewing.

I received an e-mail from Ginny this morning, which I have answered.

BTW way, I have bought the book: "April, 1865" Do you have that book? I have read some good reviews of it. So it goes to near the top of my "To be Read Stack of Books."

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom the "April 1865" title was mentioned favorably by williewoody in messages 453 and 457 of the History Book Forum. perhaps you might want to go there and see if you can kick off further discussion on this book?

Pass the popcorn, please. I want to see them all. Have only seen the Gibson/Hopkins Mutiny but would love to view the others, Ginny.. Thank you!!!

I noticed that I have been intent on Bligh to the exclusion of Fletcher Christian. So, I have begun to do a little research. there doesn't seem to be too much on him, that I have found so far.

One interesting item I came across was the claim that Christain somehow made his way back to England and hid out on Belle Island.

Also was a mention that Peter Heywood, one of the Men on the Bounty who, when he got back to England with bligh, was court martialed, found guilty and was pardoned by the King, claimed that he saw Christian in Plymouth England some time after the Mutiny and the Disappearance of the Bounty and Christian.

It is said that the Christian family mounted a successful campaign to blacken bligh's name, in order to exonerate Fletcher Christian, and that much of that has carried over to present time and is represented in the depiction of Bligh in books and films.

If you are interested, there is a book out titled: Isabella, by Fiona Mountain, which is about a romance between Fletcher Christian and his first Cousin, Isabella. A doomed romance which may have been the cause of Christian being on the Bounty. Both Fletcher Christian and Isabella were real people who were first Cousins.

Tiger Tom

In researching a little more on Fletcher Christian I am finding that he isn't quite the person depicted in the films: One area that I read claims that Chrisitan was "thin-skinned and didn't take Criticism easily or well and that it sappped his confidence in himself.

Another area said that Christian had sailed with or under bligh six (6) times before joining the bounty as Master's mate. If that is so, he should have been fairly familiar with Bligh and would not have sailed with him if Bligh was the Ogre that he is painted to be.

Christian had a brother who was a ship's Surgeon. This Brother was involved in a mutiny on the Merchant Ship "Middlesex" since it was a merchant ship he got off lightly, was forbidden from sailing on any ship owned by the merchant company which owned the Middlesex, for two years. Fletcher and his brother discussed this mutiny before Fletcher sailed on the bounty.

While on the Island Christian would sit in a cave for hours brooding. The cave is still known as Mr. Chrisitians cave.

The characters in this mutiny get more interesting all of the time.

Tiger Tom

Ginny,

If you can supply me with your home address I can mail you some blank VHS tapes so that you can copy and send to me the Australian Bligh documentary and, if you ever get it, the Movie "In the Wake of the bounty" which has Errol flynn as Mr. Christian. One way or the other, copy and send and I will forward ther blanks or I will forward blanks and you can copy and send, your choice.

I would Love to see the Documentary and the Movie. Also would like my Daughter to see the movie as she is totally enamored with Mel Gibson and doesn't believe that there could ever possibly be a more handsome Mr. Christian. Hopefully, Flynn can give Gibson a run for his money. Although, I belive that Gibson was the better actor of the two.

Tiger Tom

What's the name of the documentary? We have a good store here that stocks a lot of foreign films, so I'm hoping.

You'll need two VCRs to make copies...shhhhh.

FranMMM

Ginny,

Okay with me. If Fran sends the tapes to me I will send them on to whomever you say. I will just need the address.

BTW, I forgot, I have a many part (can't remember how many parts, three, four or five or whatever,) Documentary on Captain Cook.

Bligh appears briefly in a couple parts. Unfortunately, the series is in German and in the PAL format so it cannot be played on U.S. VCR's or T.V.s

Unless you are like me and have a seven (7) system TV and VCR you cannot do much with foreign tapes.

Tiger Tom

Correction, If ANDREA sends the tapes to me I will forward them to FRAN or whomever. Sorry, eyeballs plays
tricks on me.

Tiger Tom

Another correction: this series is a dramatization of Cooks voyages. It includes his visits to Tahiti. He too had problems with his crew and some desertions because the men grew to like the life on the island and didn't want to return to the Navy. Unlike bligh, cook had a contingent of Marines which were used to keep the crew in line and to get them back on board ship when it came time to leave. Although apparently the Marines almost caused some problems of their own.

Tiger Tom

I'm awaiting the tapes and would be happy to forward them onto you Tom when I've finished viewing them. Send me your snail mail address. I have completed the trilogy by Nordolff and Hall and thought that I'd ordered another book (besides the one by C. Fletchers relative). That was the faux pas when the wrong book was sent. Oh my. I thought that I'd ordered another while in NY State to be delivered. I'm tired can you tell? This working has got to STOP!! It interferes with my play time on Senior Net.

I can't wait to view the tapes. Was it only last night that I couldn't remeember what the heck I had ordered? Today in the mail came The Last Mutiny by Bill Collett. Mr Collett is a chemist (?), an amateur yachtsman and a competent sailor in austrailia.

"While contending with adversities, Bligh casts his mind back over his life, vividly reliving Capt. Cook's last voyage, the famous victories over Napoleon at Camperdown and Copenhagen, sexual encounters with the natives of Timor, his Governorship of New So. Wales and the notorious mutiny of his friend Fletcher Christian. Bligh is that staple of story telling, the charismatic villain, convinced that he is more sinned against than sinning and this novel is a brilliant portrait of a man and his times."

I am psyched but can't find a bloody minute to gather my thoughts much less read. Saturday will be my day. Shhhhh, don't tell anyone I'm here in the reading room.

German in Maggia?????? Only as a last resort (and if you're prepared to be looked down on, but politely)....it's ITALIAN. Repeat after me: ITALIAN ITALIAN ITALIAN

Folks, sorry about that. Ginny's talking about a village in Switzerland where we visited last year.

Nelson...ah, my hero (sort of...he did dirty on his wife). I need to go back to Portsmouth, England, where his actual ship is...the real thing, not a replica....is in the water and open to visitors.

I'll check the video store today.

FranMMM

Francisca, On the subject of Nelson and his unhappy marriage, there was a wonderful old (I guess) 1930's movie, "That Hamilton Woman." on the subject. I saw it as a rerun in the late 1940's. It was black and white and included a detailed reenactment of the Battle of Trafalgar and the death of Nelson. It concerned the Nelson/Lady Hamilton affair. I remember it well.

Tiger Tom and I are working on an outline and otherwise planning our discussion. I hope to present this information here soon.

Ginny, would it be appropriate to announce this discussion on the UK, New Zeeland, and Australia boards in the Geographic Communities folder? We might pick up some additional new participants who are unaware of our B & L discussion.

If I say, "Ginny's right" she'll say she's always right. Yeah, the owners of "our" house were German speakers...okay, I give. But we ALL KNOW who the cheater at cards is....you should see the way she turns over her pack!

The local store that touts itself as having all the hard-to-find and foreign videos didn't have the Bligh documentary in its computer, no less in stock. So please put me on the list. In English.

FranMMM

Ginny,

My wife, who is German will have to do the translating. I can understand a good deal, speak some, but only with someone who know's me and will speak slowly and is used to my fractured German. I get by but barely.

Tiger Tom

Tom, I thought I would have to answer your email about which books I'm reading with my fingers crossed and a positive slant added. Now that I've read that others have had trouble knowing which books they've ordered, I'll come clean and tell you I'm only half certain which ones were ordered and, more importantly, not certain at all FROM WHICH COMPANIES.

It began in an organized way, with my list of prices given at B&N, Amazon and Powells. Price was to be my priority. Where it all went down hill was when I found "used book" prices at Amazon (yes, Amazon!!) that were better than Powells, the place I usually rely on when I'm looking for used books. But those better prices weren't all at Amazon and not all of the 6 books (from Harold's bibliography list) were find-able in used form.

The part I definitely was never going to tell was about receiving a receipt by email from Powells on a book that I knew I didn't order because I ordered it used from Amazon and had the RECEIPT from Amazon to prove it and it had been shipped!! As I worked myself up the "let me speak to your manager" chain, I was about 90 percent glad that I knew how to be assertive without being rude or loud, just firm, and about 10 percent ready to yell at someone. Thank goodness, though, that the next person on the phone had a sense of humor and the mess struck us as funny right about the same instant when he jogged my memory by saying (remember, he's from Powells), "You DID buy the book from us THROUGH Amazon....do you remember seeing the Powells name as the company selling the used book at Amazon?" Cough, cough. THEN I remembered and felt so silly. After we laughed a while, I gave him a hard time about listing it with Amazon instead of his own company, since he could see on my account that I bought 2 other used Bligh books directly from Powells.

I've started with Captain Bligh and Mr. Christian while I wait for the other books to trickle in. I had planned to begin with the Nordhuff and Hall trilogy, the first one, at least. Captain Bligh and Mr. Christian begins with a detailed account of Cook's last voyage and Bligh's inadvertant part in his death.....as part of Bligh's background. I don't think the author means to take Christian's side, necessarily, but Bligh's subsequent defensiveness about Cook does show an unattractive or maybe unethical side to Bligh. (But am holding off evaluating this piece of the puzzle, if, indeed, it is true.) Maybe the author means to show warts and all about both men.

I've been searching for the Australian tape, Ginny. Where in the world did you find it? I have so much trouble getting mail in a timely fashion and in returning the same, so it would be so much easier if I could just buy the 4 tapes. If anyone could make a copy of the four (that would work in a standard VHS machine), I'd send you a check for the tapes, postage and for your time/effort. I gather that the tapes are now a crutial part of the discussion? They also sound like dessert to me. I LOVE travel tapes, am crazy about the great ships era and the sea. Reading all the books, then seeing the tapes would be wonderful.

I'm having the best time hearing the nautical language in Captain Bligh and Mr. Christian. Reminds me of Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey-Maturin series. "The Britannia raised the Downs on 31 July...." and I smile to myself, knowing that the ship Britannia had its first sighting of the Downs on the horizon.

"Bad Language" not ordered. "Bligh!" by McKinney not ordered. All others ordered from the short bibliography.

Betty

Thanks loads Betty.

You sure are going to be ready to go when the discussion starts. I hope that we can keep pace with you. I am sure that Harold will and ginny. However, yours truely may be lost in the dust. Oh well, I will fake it I have to.

Tiger Tom

I went to Google and entered "Bligh of the Bounty" (in quotes) and got a whole bunch of references. Here's one that lists the TV program from Australia...it's item T10

http://www.lareau.org/sagas.html

FranMMM

Ok, that price knocked some sense into me. Please put me on the sign-up list for the documentary tapes.

Betty

Mel Gibson's "The Bounty" is going to be shown on the Bravo cable channel this week - on Tuesday evening and Wednesday afternoon (Eastern Time). Check your local listings.

Z

You know, I believe that I have never seen the bounty Movie that starred Marlon Brando and Trevor Howard. Nor do I recall it being shown on T.V. Or at least that I am aware of. I did read some reviews that panned it pretty badly. Seems that it was more a vehicle to show off Brando than a serious stab at the story. I do recall one scene that was shown somewhere I was watching in which Brando KISSES Howard on the mouth, HARD. Don't recall that in any of the other movies.

Tiger Tom

The two Bounty movies that I have seen are the Clark Gable/Charles Laughton mid 1930's and the Marlon Brando remake about 1970.. I'm not sure of the date. Of the two for sheer dramatic impact and basic movie excellence, I much prefer the 1930's production. I have a VCR tape of this movie and will watch it again before we begin. Also, I will try to see some of the others before we begin

On my first reading of the Trilogy I wondered if Bligh might have some homosexual tendencies toward Christian. After reading this latest book I've received I highly doubt it. He was a prig it appears when it came to sex. I would have trouble believing he could be capable of performing in that aspect.

A plug for the book I just finished, Captain Bligh and Mr. Christian (from Harold's list in Short Bibliography link). This is non-fiction and covers everything before, during and after the mutiny, including all 3 groups after the mutiny, where they go and what happens to them, then all appointments, voyages, court-martials, etc. to the end of Bligh's life. The book is full of maps, charts, photos and hundreds of quotes from Bligh's log and later writings, plus quotes from other pertinent sources. (It does not include complete court text or Christian's brother's writings or Bligh's replies.)

What I appreciate from this author, Richard Hough, is his openness of intent. He does draw conclusions (I'll keep those to myself for now) but makes it clear that, even though the work is as objective as possible, the conclusions are his.

This book could have benefited from better editing, though I'm afraid a good editor would have said, you're trying to cover too much. By the time the author points out patterns in Bligh's life, however, he can back it up with places, dates, and quotes in the book.

Betty

Thank you, Betty for your excellent comment on, "Captain Bligh and Mr Christian," by Richard Hough. These comments pretty well summarize my own conclusions of the book. I might add that it is written as a popular history rather than an academic one meaning it sometimes includes dialog exchanges between the characters, and it is not well documented with footnotes and annotations. Nevertheless it covers the subject well and will be an excellent source for this discussion. I have read this source and am currently reading it again highlighting discussion points.

Also thank you Betty for deferring your discussion until the discussion opens for that purpose Feb 2nd. I note we are all straining at the bit to get started, but let us all try to hold our actual discussion points until we sail.

Later today I plan to post a proposed broad outline for the discussion beginning Feb 2nd and I will also outline my thoughts for the schedule. Your comments will be welcomed.

I just found a copy of the Trilogy and have just begun..read it many years ago. My library has the Hough book, so will try to get to that next.

Getting excited, now!

FranMMM

Ginny,

Franchot tone: Movie Star and Matinee Idol of the 30's and early 40's. Good actor. Had to be. He played some tough guys and he was short and thin. Doubt if he weighed in at much more that 120. Typical of the tough guys of that era. Bogart about 5' 5". Ladd about the same, you get the drift.

Anyway, Tone and another (grade actor, Tom Neil, got the hots for a Starlet named Barbara Paxton. Upshot Niel and Tone met in a Night Club and Niel beat the stuffings out of Tone as Neil was taller and heavier by a good deal. Tone evidently believed his movie image. Niel eventually Murdered Paxton and was sent to prison for a very long time. He may still be in there.

Ginny,

If you didn't get my e-mail in reply to yours about the heading:

Go ahead with it anytime you like. I too think that Harold did a great job.

Tiger Tom

Ginny,

In case your e-mail is still acting up:
I received the tape, that you sent, today,
Jan 15.

I will view it either tonight or tomorrow morning
and send it off to Betty by no later than Thursday Morn
But hopefully, Wednesday evening.

Tiger Tom

You know, I wondered about Franchot Tone because in one scene with Clark Gable he appears almost...frail, he's quite small. I couldn't figure out if Gable were a giant or Tone were just small, I agree he can't weigh more than 120 pounds.

Can't wait to discuss these things with all of you, thanks, Tom, I did get the emails today!

ginny

The following is a proposedd outline of our discussion:

I. The Voyage of the Bounty: England to Tahiti. Purpose; Bounty Personnel Including Officers, Crew and Mission Specialists; Prior training and career of the principal characters particularly Bligh and Christian; Life in the 18th Century Royal Navy; Bligh’s Running of the Ship At Sea and Discipline of Crew; The course, England to Cape Horn, back to the Cape of Good Hope, Re-supply at Capetown, and on to Tahiti.

II. The Tahiti Sojourn: Work and Play in a South Seas Paradise; Discipline; Relations With the Native Population.

III. The Mutiny: Life at sea after Tahiti; The Mutiny Plot, Mutineers & Loyalists; the taking of the ship; The Bounty’s post mutiny course back to Tahiti; Mutineers leave Tahiti for Pitcairn Island; The Burning of the Bounty and the Founding of the Pitcairn Settlement.

IV. Bligh After the Mutiny: Bligh and loyalist cast adrift in launch; Voyage to Timor, Return to England, Bligh’s Court Martial; Bligh Returns to the South Seas to Arrest Mutineers; Result-Arrests of Personnel Remaining at Tahiti; Loss of the Pandora.

V. Justice: Judicial Proceedings against Mutineers Returned to England- Trial; Executions & Pardons.

VI. The Fate of the Pitcairn Settlement

VII. The Aftermath- Bligh's post Bounty career; His later writings in defense of his role; Christian's brother's defense of Christian; The Reports of Christian being seen in England; The Barrow's Summary

This suggested outline divides the discussion into the seven logical chronological principal parts. We start with the first and take them one at a time. As to schedule I suggest we do as we did on "John Adams." For any section we continue until the subject is exhausted and every body has had a chance to have her/his say. When this point is reach one of the DL will signal a move to the next section. I don't see this discussion running to a record time, but the schedule is open to allow for a full and complete discussion of the subject, ending when we are satisfied we are finished.

It sounds like a great outline Harold. I've copied it.

Great Job Harold.

A point. It was my understanding that it was not Bligh but another Captain on the Ship Pandora who was sent to the South Seas to find and arrest the Mutineer's. I could be wrong, that is one of the problems were are going to face: different viewponts from different sources on the same event.

As I have said, I still am not even sure of what instruments that Bligh had with him in the open boat to Navigate his way. I am read of any number of combinations of Sextant, Chronometer, and Compass.

Whatever, very good outline.

Tiger Tom

It was Captain Edward Edwards in the Pandora, in many ways a tougher character than reports of Bligh, who was given a commission to go find Christian and the mutineers. Bligh did return fairly soon for a second try, identical to the first, I think, to gather breadfruit plants in Tahitiand deliver them to the West Indies. This was either before, after or at the same time (like my precision?) gruff old Edwards was sent to round up the "pirates." I don't promise to know this later, but I just read about Edwards in two books. His high point in this tale is how he handled a major leak after running into.......nah, I won't tell if you haven't read it yet.

ö betty

June, 1792, the 10 mutiny prisoners arrived in England. Just 2 months earlier, April, 1792, Bligh arrived in Tahiti to begin collecting breadfruit again.

Betty

At this point I am not sure that I want to get involved in this discussion, which it would appear could take up the better part of a year. The story has always facinated me. I have seen all three of the main movies on the subject. Most recently the one with Anthony Hopkins as Capt. Bligh. I am inclined to believe this one more truly represents what actually happened. The two previous Blighs, portrayed by Charles Laughton, and Trevor Howard seemed too much like monsters. I believe Bligh was more likely a much more peaceful character as portrayed by Hopkins. Actually he was too lenient with his crew, especially allowing them to all go ashore in Tahiti where they spent so much time. When he tried to restore discipline when they left the island, some of the crew revolted. In the end Bligh was portrayed as a hero by the Naval Court of Inquiry in Britain. All this should make interesting reading, if I can tear myself away from my current study of U.S. history during the Revolution and the Civil wars.

Williewoody

Yeah for Ginny! I've just received the tapes. Now all I have to do is shoo Bill away from my TV/VCR and into the bedroom.

Williewoody: By no means will this take us a year. We need and encourage your participation. You would be a wonderful addition. Please reconsider this.

Ginny,

I believe you have made clear a point which I have been trying to make: Who to believe? Obsiously NOT Hollywood. The written matter? It depends on who does the writing and what axe that person has to grind. Also, if the person doing the writing is related to any of the characters in the Bounty event.

That documentary you are sending round comes close to being unbiased, but, still some of the people interviewed in it are related somehow to people who took part in the Mutiny. They, of course, are putting the best light they can on their ancestor's (spelled that wrong, old age creeping up on me) story.

I believe this is going to be one of the strength's of this discussion: trying to arrive as close we can come to the real truth of the Mutiny and of the main characters in it, Bligh and Christian.

Tiger Tom

Last night I watched the movie with Clark Gable, Charles Laughton and Franchot Tone - I'm older, obviously, than some of you as I remember Tone in a few movies when I was young, but I never knew that incident, Tom, that you related about the confrontration between him and a fellow named Neil who later murdered the woman the two were fighting over.

Good heavens, that would make a story in itself.

I'm envious of all of you that are taking part in this discussion, I think it's a fabulous idea and I would be here with you but my husband and I are going on an Elderhostel to Natchez, MS and environs, taking our time to see all side attractions, etc. We'll take a week to get there and a week there, and a week to get home, so I'll not be reading your discussion; however, I will read the conclusions you come to when I return.

As one of you said, Charles Laughton played Captain Bligh with fervor and was an awful character in the movie, finding any and all occasions to whip the men into what he considered "shape." Clark Gable - big SIGH - was as handsome as ever I remember him.

HI EVERYONE I am just passing thru quickly in response to an invitation from Harold Arnold to the people in the New Zealand folder re your new discussion. I have posted the invitation in our folder and hope you will receive responses. Personally I am off to a wedding around the time the discussion starts so may not be able to post.

Don't really know much about "Mutiny on the Bounty" apart from memories of books and films many years ago and I do remember being introduced to a relative of Fletcher Christian in Hamilton when I was a teenager. Several NZ's were hosting some Norfolk Islanders and they commented that they spoke a strange language to each other which had its origins way back, someone mentioned the Bounty...

In a magazine I was reading this month, "Next", there is a photo of two '6th generation Tahitian Bounty descendants' who are weaving Pitcairn Island-style baskets. Shame the magazine doesn't seem to have a website or I would post a clickable. Both women have long black hair and IMHO show genetic links to polynesian ancestors.

The article mentions a glass bottom boat ride in a turquoise sea with John Christian, one of the Bounty descendants.
Ah, just re-read and noticed that the women are descended from the Tahitian women who accompanied the Bounty mutineers to Pitcairn and later to Norfolk". Hope the magazine won't mind a little more quoting, "The mutineers wouldn't have survived without their wives because those Tahitian women could do everything," says Maeve [descendant]. "They knew which foods to eat and they wove baskets and clothing. Even today on Pitcairn the women can man boats, nail roof iron, cook, fish and climb up the side of ships well into their 60s and 70s." Phew, I am feeling tired just reading that, LOL....

Williewoody, I certainly do not see this discussion lasting any where near a year. A couple of months maybe. My comment on the scheule yesterday was simply leaving it free from a fixed finish date. Hope you will reconsider.

Thank you Mary de Boer for putting the announcement on the New Zealand Community Board. All of you from the world down under are most welcome and I do hope you will follow us and add your comments.

Great schedule, Harold, especially all the detail. I hope you put each section into the heading, as we get to it.

I hope we pay attention to Bligh's life after the last remnants of the Bounty episode have passed. He kept getting into trouble.....which gives us a context within which to view the Bounty.

Betty

I believe that there is a book, somewhere, titled: "The Tattooed Hand" it is, I believe, a semi-Fictional account of the Woman who was Fletcher Christian's "Wife" the one he named "Isabella." The book covers events before and after arrival in Pictairn Island.

In another Place I read that she was about 35 years old and stood about six feet or a little above. which would make her some years older than Christian and about three or four inches taller. Not the "Young" Maid that is depicted in the films or in some books.

Don't know what is true and what isn't. But it is interesting.

Tiger Tom

Franchot Tone:

Tone's official Bio lists him as 6 feet tall, weighing 165 pounds. He didn't look that big.

Tone was mixed up with and married a woman named Barbara Payton (Not Paxton). while engaged to tone, she was fooling around with Tom Neal a B actor. Tone and Neal had a fight over Payton resulting in Tone landing in the Hospital. Tone and Payton were married for only seven months.

Neal went on to Kill his third wife and served seven years in Prison. Payton wound up a prostitute. Tone continued his acting Career.

There, I think I finally have it correct. funny how things become jumbled in one's mind and odds and ends become connected that really weren't Whatever, sorry for the misinformation.

Tiger Tom

My sister emailed me that the Mel Gibson Bounty is being shown on the Bravo cable channel today, though she didn't say when and I don't have a channel guide.

Betty

"The Bounty" will be on Bravo cable channel beginning at 8:00 p.m. ET tonight (Saturday 19 January). It's to be preceded at 7:00 p.m. by an Actor's Studio interview with Anthony Hopkins.

MaryWZ

I just saw "The Bounty" on the Bravo Direct TV channel. So far as the directing, the script, and generally the way it was edited and put together I feel I am being generous is scoring it -1 on a scale of 1 to 1`0. The acting and sets were not particularly good either. I agree, however that regarding its treatment of the history it is probably the truest of all the films on the subject. Bligh is no saint, but neither is he the sadist tyrant as in the others. Another negative is it ends in the middle of the story.

It has been a long time since I have seen the Marlon Brando version, but the 1935 film with Charles Laughton so far as acting and sheer dramatic impact gets my vote as the best of the lot although this one is probably the worst so far as misrepresenting history is concern

Rolf Harris documentaries have been reviewed and mailed on to Fran yesterday.

I have, now, on loan from the local Library, four books: The bounty Trilogy by Norduff and Hall; Captain Bligh's Portable Nightmare; Captain Bligh and Mr. christian; and Bligh, by Sam McKinney.

I held off until now to borrow them so that what is in them will be fresh in my mind when our discussion begins on Groundhog Day.

Tiger Tom

The videos arrived today and I plan on getting them viewed over the weekend. I'm about halfway through the first book in the trilogy...thoroughly enjoying it, too.

Where do the videos go next?????

Avast, me mateys, ahoy and away...or something like that.

Fran

Fran,

Avast, me Hearty's, weigh anchor and set sail.

Or some such thing.

Glad that yoou are enjoying the Trilogy. Does this mean you are ready to start on Groundhog Day?

Tiger Tom

Good Fran, I'm happy that they've arrived. Check in with Ginny to see who gets them next on the list.

The Bounty will sail at 05:01 hours GMT, Saturday, Feb 2nd. Tomorrow Ginny is scheduled to replace the current heading with a new heading that will include the discussion outline and topic questions for the first section. Lets get this voyage under sail the first thing, Saturday morning! Are you ready?

Who's captain of this ship? Wait for me.....I'm trying to get on board but the ship is rocking.

Saturday is Ground Hog Day and the prediction is for the little guy to see his shadow up here in NJ. Hope the waters don't ice up....

Just renewed my passport so I'm ready to sail....

I'm maybe a bit premature, but I'll start out tomorrow with a Tahiti breakfast. Yes, HEB had ripe plantains on special at 57 cents a pound, so I bought two. I cut up a half of one with canned tropical fruit and mandarin oranges with feta cheese dressing for supper. One I will slice on my cereal for breakfast. They are ripe and quite good. The very first time I have tried them

Much of my input to this discussion will come from the Richard Hough. “Captain Bligh & Mr Christian” title. I have also read “Captain Bligh’s Portable Nightmare” by John Toohey, the 19th century Barrow compilation from Admiralty records. “The Mutiny of the Bounty,” and the facsimile publication of the log Bligh kept during the open boat voyage to Timor. Also I have “Every Man Will Do His Duty” edited by Dean King and John Hattendorf. This includes 21 contemporary stories of naval live in the age of Nelson. Mostly they concerning Royal Navy experience with several centered on U.S. Navy events. I have found this source helpful in judging the Bligh/Bounty experience in comparison with the prevailing customs of the time particularly concerning matters of discipline. .

One of the interesting points about this discussion is that all of us have not all read the very same books but come to the discussion with different views acquired from different sources. I urge every one to bring attention to differences views that they have observed from their interpretation of their sources.

I think the first section of this discussion that we are now beginning is of the utmost importance to the understanding of the event because it is here that we learn who the leading characters are, and their background. The Hough book is pretty good in this area. It has quite a complete summary of Blighs previous career including his previous role in Pacific Exploration with Captain Cook. It also has background material of Fletcher Christian, but here the material is less complete and definitely sketchier. I think Tiger Tom has previously noted the same shortage of material on Christian from his research. An early later post by me will concern the training and early careers of Bligh and Christian. This afternoon is my work day at the Institute of Texan Cultures so I will not be back here until evening. Please don’t wait for me, go ahead and post your thoughts now.

What do all think of our Nautical Groundhog? I think it is great. Not knowing if it is a Male or Female I must refer to it as "It" Anyone might have a name for our Groundhog? Keeping it Nautical? Kinda lonely in here. So far just Harold and myself. hopefully we will have more joining in later in the day.

Tiger Tom

I believe another point that should be covered in our early discussion is the Relationship between Bligh and Christian before the Bounty.

It would seem that they had sailed together on various ships and in various positions about six times before either joined the Bounty.

One would think that they would have had some understanding of the other from that or at least a nodding acquaintence.

Tiger Tom

Now hear this!…..Now hear this!…….All hands, Now hear this! Muster on the deck.. Are you present? Yes/no?

Alf……………………………………______? Andrea………………………………..______? Betty…………………………………..______? Cmac….………………………………______? FranM…………………………………______?

Any of you who may have WW II naval experience will certainly remember the many “All Hands, Now Hear This” announcements over the PA system. Of course there was no electrically amplified PA system on the 18th century Bounty, but I wonder if the “Now hear this” call was not already in use. I can picture the master’s mate. Megaphone in hand calling out against the howling cape horn winds.

I also wonder if the call is still in use in today’s navies. On reflection I think my WW II navy may well be both culturally and technologically closer to the 18th century Bligh/Jones/Edwards/Nelson navies, than the modern navies of today?

Harold

Call "all hands man your stations" that might get a little action. Never know.

Question as to who is Captain and who is Mate. Harold is Captain and Ginny and I are mates.

Anyone want to volunteer for Bosun Mate? Get to use the Knout when the hands don't move right smart.

Tiger Tom

Both Tiger Tom and Ginny have made reference to the selection of the officers and crew who manned the Bounty. I hope Giiny will comment further on the Rolf Harris book’s material relative to the choice of personnel.

The Richard Hough, “Captain Bligh Mr Christian Text (henceforth abbreviated CB&MC) describes the method of choosing personnel in some detail. The system he described is quite patriarchic/family/friends centered. Many of the principal officers and midshipmen were chosen by Bligh based on long existing family ties between his family and other known local families. Using a modern term Bligh choose his crew from his family/local area network. Many of the ratings and seaman positions were filled by people Bligh knew from previous service. Again this was an extension of his network beginning with his family and local area contacts extended to prior work contacts. On first hand it would appear that this system might work quite well if in fact the people chosen were competent for their job. As we know this did not seem to be the case

One notable exception to the family/local network as the source of personnel may have been the choice of Bligh himself to lead the expedition. Bligh’s appointment was made by Sir Joseph Banks the proponent of the mission who by petition to the King obtained Royal Navy (RN) involvement. Apparently he had not known Bligh before but picked him on the basis of merit from Admiralty records showing Bligh’s great ability as a navigator and seaman in the last Cook expedition. CB&MC includes a good summary of Blighs role in the Cook voyage that confirms Bligh’s great talents in navigation and charting, but is quite blank concerning his qualifications as a leader of sailors on long sea voyages. It also calls attention to a questionable Bligh command decision that might have been a factor leading to Cook's death.

Another point is that Bligh, Christian and all the rest of our characters with I suppose the exception of Sir Joseph Banks were not upper class aristocrats. There was not a title of nobility in the lot. All were typical 18th century gentle-class coming from families who had been merchants, traders, sailors, and professionals particularly surgeons and clergy. When titles appear among RN officers almost always they are earned either non-hereditary knighthood or new peer creations i.e. Lord Nelson.

Bligh’s choice of personnel failed in this case perhaps because his choices were not always professionally the best and perhaps more to the point previous relations with the individuals chosen resulted in actual or the appearance of favoritism creating dissention leading to the disaster.

Ahoy captain. I am present, SIR. The superbowl party awaits me and then I shall step up and fulfill my duties, SIR.

Present, Cap'n Harold,Sir!!. I am not late, Sir. I am...up here. Sorry, sir. I came up to walk the line and, well, I can't get down. As soon as someone comes up to help me down, I'll begin my duties, Sir!

Quasi-able seaperson Betty

Hey Matie Andy this super bowl is BECOMING INTERESTING. What are you serving at the party.....I'm hungary......

cAPTAIN IS THERE A TV ON THIS SHIP. If not I shall be back after the game.....

WOW................WHAT A GAME

Harold,

It would seem that Bligh, christian and the crew Knew one another before joining the bounty.

IF Bligh chose the crew based on familiarity with the men. That means the men were familiar with him.

Since they were all volunteer's it stands to reason they would not ship out with the Ogre that Bligh has been painted.

I cannot see bligh sigining on men who were inexperienced with the sea and sailing. that would be very foolish on his part and Bligh may have been a lot of things but stupid wasn't one of them.

On the other hand, the crew (seamen) while maybe possesed with natural intelligence, would have been mostly uneducated and probably easily led by someone clever enough.

Pity that we don't know more about the crew, not just Bligh and Christian and one or two others.

Tiger Tom

and why would they not want to sail with Bligh? He was from the Royal fleet? He'd had experience with Cook? He was notably a good cartographer already. We learn a great deal about the crew as we watch and see where theri strengths and vulnerabilities lay.

Alf,

I might consider serving under a person who is reknowned for skill and experience who could teach a lot and who had the ability to completely the mission safely and quickly.

I would, however, think long and hard about signing on with a person whom I knew to be a tyrant, unfair, given to harsh punishment and possibly not all right in his mind.

Anyone who had journyed with Bligh should have known his qualities. Sailing with a man who was all or any of the above should have given them much pause especially since this was a Volunteer situation.

True, under normal circumstances; with what would be considered a normal Officer of his times; a known quantity to the men; and a man of great reputation; a sailor would be right in signing on.

From some of what I have read it is claimed that Bligh was not a very nice Officer to be sailing under.

Again, I don't buy that. If the sailors had been dragooned onto the ship that is a different story. But, given the choice to sign on or not. The thought of a two year voyage under a Officer would might very well make life Hell for the men would scare off any man with some intelligence and concern for his well being.

No, Bligh was known to the men and he knew them or of them. He chose from those who had volunteered and probably asked some who had not to join and they may have because they considered him to be a good, fair, Officer.

Tiger Tom

Nothing I have read has suggested that any member of the Bounty ship's company was dragged kicking & screaming or otherwise on to the Bounty. Hough does not go into great detail but he indicates Bligh picked the officers, midshipmen and even the ratings and seamen. Many had sailed with him before or were know to him from his family/friends network. Fryer may have been an exception as I remember reading a reference that Fryer was assigned by the admaralty. Sir Joseph Banks most certainly picked Nelson the botanist. It is only in the 1935 Gable/Laughton movie that the 18th century draft is employed. Remember in an early scene Mr Christian with armed marines collects the crew from dockside taverns pulling one from the arms of his young, pregnant wife..

Here is a comment in CB&MC in which Edward Christian quotes Fletcher regarding Bligh:

According to Edward Christian, his brother told him he had not regretted for one minute his decision to sail as a foremastman on the Britannia’s first voyage. Bligh had taken great pains to instruct him. Christian could not, he said, have had a finer master. His judgment of Bligh as a man was brief and ambivalent. While grateful to Bligh for all the instruction and special treatment, he found Bligh, 'a very passionate man, though I believe I have learned how to humor him.' Fletcher Christian does not appear to have explained the relationship more fully to his brother.

In the above passage I am quoting Hough who is referring to writings of Edward Christian and what Fletcher supposedly had said about Bligh based on their previous sailing on the Britannia. Do not attach 21st century meaning to the appearance of the word "passion." It was commonly use in the 18th century to mean a bad or uncontrolled temper. The passage suggests Fletcher knew of Bligh's hair-trigger temper, but thought he knew how to handle him. Perhaps he did not understand Bligh as well as he thought?

Here is another passage from CB&MC telling something about the status of Christian and some of the others of the Bounty crew:.

The only officer holding the king's commission was Bligh (Lieutenant). The King's warrant was held by Huggan the surgeon, Fryer the master, Cole the bo'sun, Peckoner the gunner, and Purcell the carpenter. The other officers were petty officers, with limited privileges. Christian and the other midshipmen- really apprentice officers- were classed as ratings (and could therefore be flogged) but messed separately and had other privileges.

Remember Christian's signed on the Bounty as acting Master's Mate making him junior to Fryer the ship's master. After the Bounty sailed, Bligh in an act of obvious favoritism and perhaps of questionable legality made Christian acting lieutenant making him in effect the executive officer over Fryer. This certainly caused much jealousy in Fryer and perhaps others.

Harold,

I would take anything said by any of the Christian family with a whole salt mine. Remember, they set out to blacken Bligh's name after he returned to England and reported the mutiny and that it was led by Fletcher Christian. In this they apparently were quite successful.

Bligh never had the money or the time to fight their charges and innuendo's. Anything the a Christian said about Bligh would be tinged by their efforts to make Fletcher Christian look better and Bligh worse.

Tiger Tom

The Bligh and Christian relationship before the Bounty may have worked better because Bligh felt himself to be the teacher of Christian. Even the promotion he gave Christian early in the Bounty mission comes from one with more power to one with less power. They may have known and liked each other, but the power difference may have been a crucial part of it, for Bligh.

Two things regarding personnel, early in the voyage, give us clues to Bligh's leadership skills. Christian's promotion was one. As Harold wrote, that made Christian superior to Fryer, a complete flip-flop of authority. Almost every author who writes of this promotion questions Bligh's action.

The other action regarding personnel was Bligh's silence regarding the selection of the physician. In CB&MC, the author writes that Bligh, knowing of the man's pronounced drinking problem, accepted him anyway. I begin to wonder......if Christian had not been promoted and if there had been a functioning, professional doctor on board, how would those 2 things have changed the outcome? At any rate, there are plenty decisions made by Bligh that make it easy to question his ability to lead and manage such a mission.

Betty

I am indebted to Betty Gregory for calling my attention to the error in IV of the Outline in the heading. Bligh did not return to the Pacific to arrest mutineers, but to complete the breadfruit mission. I am asking Patricia Westerdale to changee IV in the Outline to read as follows:

IV Bligh After the Mutiny: Bligh and loyalist cast adrift in launch; Voyage to Timor, Return to England, Bligh's Court Martial; The Admiralty sent HMS Pandora commanded by Captain Edward Edwards to the South Seas to arrest the mutineers. Bligh returned to the South Seas with a new ship to complete the breadfruit mission. Edwards did not locate Christian and the mutineers on Pitcairn, but brought back those who had stayed on Tahiti. He lost the Pandora on a reef but returned surviving prisoners to England.

For us to formulate our individual final conclusions on the Bligh/Christian relationship I think we must wait until we have discussed its further development during the long voyage particularly as it developed during the sojourn at Tahiti and during the weeks immediately before the mutiny. Hough in CB&MC defers his conclusions until the very last chapter and I suggest we do likewise. As the discussion proceeds we will have continuing opportunity and reason to inject further comment on the relationship.

This evening after I return from my work at the National Historic Park, I will make some comment on some of the other principals including the mid-shipmen.

I agree with Betty regarding Bligh’s miserable choice in picking the Bounty’s surgeon, Thomas Huggan. The good doctor came well supplied with his own personal stock of hard liquor and proceeded to kill himself. The wonder is that he lived a year before he finally died at Tahiti. I think Bligh by choosing this man for such a key position illustrates his great flaw- his inability to effectively lead men at sea.

Incidentally the Huggins alcoholism is one point where the 1935 movie stayed true to history. I do remember the scene where he was hoisted aboard the Bounty atop the great stock of alcohol substance that he brought for the voyage. Even by 18th century standards, if Bligh had been good leader he would have no such an addict aboard.

Vis-a-Vis the Doctor.

If all you have to choose from is a bad lot, you you take the best of the worst.

Doubt if there were a stampede of good, qualified, Doctors to go on a trip to Bring Breadfruit back to the West Indies.

If, however, it had been a voyage captained by Cook, I am sure the selection would have been much better.

It may that the good doctor was the ONLY one put forward and Bligh simply made the best of a bad deal.

Bligh was concerned with the health of his crew and the success of the voyage. He was NOT a stupid man. He would have tried to get the best that was available. If he was offered the dregs, that was what he had to choose from.

Tiger Tom

Let me state here and now, openly, that I intend to be Bligh's advocate in these discussions.

I hope that there will be Christian's Champions among our group, and some neutral, if possible.

Has anyone else read "Bligh" by Gavin Kennedy? Kennedy is an unapologetic backer of Bligh. I found this book in the local library. Kennedy states that the first two appointments to the Bounty were Fryer and Huggan. Kennedy also states that Bligh tried to get Huggan replaced but failed. He then requested an Assistant Surgeon which he got just before sailing. The Assistant Surgeon was carried as an AB (able bodied seaman) further shortening the number of ABs. George Stewart and Peter Heywood were taken on as midshipmen because of family connections, as was the usual case in the system at that time. The were carried as ABs but were actually midshipmen, and never worked as seamen.

Bligh was chosen according to Kennedy not only because of Sir Joseph Banks but also because of his wife's uncle Duncan Campbell who was a rich and influential owner of plantations in the West Indies, where thr breadfruit was to be taken to provide cheap food for the slaves working on the sugar plantations.

John Z

Three months ago I would have included my name in the Bligh camp. After completing quite a bit of reading I think I am still to be counted there but I am still evaluating the question, and I don’t think I will be in a position to unequivocally say that Bligh should not share some of the responsibility for the mutiny. So far as sadistic discipline is concern I now suspect that Bligh used it less than many commander of the day. Yet something seems seriously wrong with the way Bligh related to his officers and men and his relations with his subordinates seem in the end to have in the end contributed to the tragedy. I urge you to be open to the appearance of such flaws as this discussion progresses. Other commanders who seem more inclined toward physical discipline appear to have been quite successful in maintaining relatively happy even if physically bruised crews.

Zwyram, I have not read the Gavin Kennedy book though I think some of the others have. We would appreciate your keeping appraised of this book’s position on the various issues that we discuss.

Beyond question Bligh choose the Bounty Midshipmen group from his hometown family network. Hough indicates some of these families had been lobbying Bligh for years in anticipation of obtaining a suitable career for a son. Though the Admiralty authorized only two, Bligh used loopholes to sign on four all from his own home area.

I think all were teenagers with Peter Heywood the youngest being only14. I note in all of the movies that I have seen while the actor playing the role was made-up to be in the early 20’s, all were much more mature than 14.

According to Kennedy in "Bligh" the midshipmen's ages at the time of sailing were: John Hallet 15, from a family that were friends of his wife; Peter Heywood 15, son of a friend of his wife's family; Thomas Hayward 20; Edward Young 21; George Stewart 21, son of a family Bligh had known for years; Robert Tinkler 17, Fryer's brother in law.

These "Young Gentlemen" plus the cooper, the steward, 2 cooks and a butcher were all carried on the roll as A.B.s. This caused the Bounty to be short handed of really able bodied seamen.

Unfortunately, the Bounty being sort of a hybrid, Neither Royal Navy, or Merchantman, didn't carry a Contingent of Marines.

Since the Ship and the voyage were under the auspices of the Royal Navy, Bligh a commissioned Royal Navy Officer, and the ship sailing under Royal Navy Regulations, some Marines should have been on board.

Obviously, lack of space was the reason. However, Marines on board certainly would have prevented the Mutiny. Note, Bligh's next voyage to Tahiti to bring back Breadfruit, he had two ships and a Contingent of Marines. Didn't have any troubles on that voyage.

Tiger Tom

I understand the Bounty sailed under the red ensign (a red field with the Union Jack in the upper, front quadrant). Royal navy ships of the line flew the white ensign which is a white field with a St George cross and the Union Jack in the upper, front quadrant. Today I think the use of the white ensign is still confined to combat ships. Auxiliary RN ships such as tankers and transports still fly the red. Merchant ships too fly the red ensign.

I think we are about finished with our consideration of the people attached to the Bounty. Anyone who has concluding comments on this area, please make them now. Also I note a number of presumed participants who were quite active in the planning phase, have remained silent. COME ON NOW! We value your thoughts and want to hear your thoughts too.

Next let us center on the ship and its stock of supplies for the 2-year voyage. Then we will move to the voyage centering first on the attempt to round cape horn and then briefly the turn around and the stopover at Cape Town.

Regarding the Bounty the best that can be said about it is that it was only a few years old having been built as a merchantman at Hull only 2 ½ years earlier. When the breadfruit project was approved the Admiralty wrote specifications and called for bids. Five offers were received meeting the specifications and the Bethia was chosen. This was a 230-ton, 3-mast merchantman about 90 feet long and a bit less than 25 feet at its widest point. The vessel underwent significant modifications to fit it for its mission and its name was changed to HMS Bounty. The modification centered on the installation of copper sheathing over the hull to protect in from the boring sea worm that were destructive to wooden hulls sailing in tropical waters and the installation of suitable accommodations for the breadfruit plants. The latter was an elaborate greenhouse structure in the amidships area that took space normally used for the accommodations of the crew. Also the Bounty was armed with several small cannons for defense.

The space required to accommodate the breadfruit plants most certainly contributed to the rather small crew. Which numbered only 47 of which only 19 were “Able Seamen.” This does seem a small crew considering the Bounty was totally dependent on manpower for manual manipulation of its controls. Also as Tiger Tom mentioned in the previous post, the space limitations left no room for the inclusion of Royal Marines the absence of which most certainly was a factor in the mutiny.

I've not deserted, Captain, SIR! My computer needs a bath, I fear, and I'll be changing my ISP tomorrow if things don't improve. I promise you I'm reading the posts and remarking here in the galley. I used to be a Bligh proponent and have switched my smypathies over to Mr C.

Ginny,

Very interesting. The more we learn the more interesting it becomes.

Certainly not like the Laughton, Gable "Mutiny on the Bounty." Of course, the Norduff and Hall book was the father of that Movie.

Am eagerly waiting for your next installment.

Tiger Tom

I have the Bounty and The Last Mutiny books here. How are we going to proceed so that I know what I can review and offer?

Ginny wrote:

He was brown skinned and dark haired, and quite muscular. Bowlegged. Subject to violent sweats, which Bligh commented on.

I have read this description of Christian before. Being muscular and bow legged perhaps was not unusual for seamen in the age of sail. Being dark skinned was I think quite rare among the ‘English in the 18th century. Anthropologists have noted the existence of a dark skinned strain among the Irish said to be the result of the intermarriage of Irish girls and Spanish sailors surviving the defeat of the armada in the 1580’’s. Many survivors washed up on the Irish coast and stayed. I wonder about the conditions that brought on the violent sweats? Sweats working below deck in the humid interior of a ship in the tropics would not be unusual; in the North Atlantic they would not be likely. Could the sweating spells have been a symptom of some mental illness, anxiety or bi-polar (maniac-depressive) disorder?

I also think the Ginny’s quote commenting on Royal Navy promotion through ability, with birth counting much less than in the army, is well documented in the records. I understand that most of the Navy Lords were new creations like Lord Nelson who earned their title through successful command. Most RN awards were the non-hereditary knighthoods that were the usual award for successful performance along with promotion to admiral. Our Captain Bligh achieved flag status, but was denied knighthood. This suggests there was a cloud of suspicion hanging over him. In WW II perhaps the case of Air Marshal Harris who commanded the RAF bomber operations is similar. All of the other British senior generals and Admirals were elevated with knighthoods and the peerage, but bomber Harris was denied due to criticism of his saturation fire bombing of civilian cities.

Hough describes three paths for becoming an officer in the 18th century Royal Navy. . The most gentile route involved becoming an appetence under the tutelage of a captain. Captains were very selective and of course favored their family, keeping the trainee under their wing and protecting him from too much exposure the rigors of life at sea. A second method was attendance for two years at the Naval Academy at Portsmouth that had been in operations since 1727. Sons from the families of the “gentlemen” middle class and occasionally the second sons of noblemen might obtain admittance to this institution. These graduates were viewed with suspicion by the old salts because they lacked sea experience and the program smacked of intellectualism. Hough does not provide further detail, but I think further analysis centering on the active careers of these graduates and their success or failure in the Navy would be most interesting.

The third route was entry from the lower decks by way of the Master’s Mate rank. This was the way Bligh obtained his rank and it also appears to have been the route Fletcher Christian was following. Hough notes that this route was not as “democratic” as it might appear since you had to be nominated and a practical matter the nominees were almost always from the gentle class. It would appear that all of the Bounty’s midshipmen were in this route though the line between the first and third methods seems somewhat blurred. I guess I do not see Bligh being particularly protective or otherwise favoring any of these gentlemen

In a concluding quote Ginny in message 272 wrote:

Adams, the sole male survivor of the settlement of Pitcairn, said that he believed Christian to be under some obligation to Bligh and that their original quarrel happened at Cape Town and was kept up until the time of the mutiny.

I think Hough sees the causes of the mutiny resulting from events later than Cape Town, particularly during the months the Bounty crew were at Tahiti and the shock of the paradise lost when they again put to sea. Let us all review our sources for any event occurring while the Bounty was at Cape Town that might relate to the mutiny. Also I see no evidence of Christian being indebted to Bligh, other than the gratitude due a teacher who went out of his way to help the student learn his profession. This could well be what Adams was saying.

Harold,

The Red Hair of the Irish came through the intermarriage of Irish lasses and the Spanish who washed up on shore after the Armada was defeated and then destroyed by that huge storm.

Hugh Dowding, the man who masterminded the Battle of Britain, was denied a Knighthood although he, probably more than any man in Britain, deserved it. He was also denied promotion to the rank of full Air Marshall. Many years after both of those honors were granted, a lot late. Dowding was also forced to retire immediately after the Battle of Britain was won. There had actually been a couple attempts to force his retirement during the battle.

Dowding was the victem of attacks on his strategy by Parks and Bader. He was also on Churchills short list of people he wanted to get even with. (Dowding wasn't hesitant to tell Churchill where the Bear messed in the woods. Churchill didn't like people who did that.)

Never heard that "Bomber Harris" was denied any honors for his efforts.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom: for a brief sketch on BomberHarris click on the link.. Bomber Harris was Sir Author Harris who commanded the RAF Bomber Command during WW II. I was wrong in as much as he did have his Knighthood title when he assumed the RAF Bomber Command. He designed the thousand plane nighttime raids on German cities and towns designed not just to destroy industrial targets, but specifically as morale destroying terror raids against civilian populations. My comment that he was denied the peerage awarded to most other senior British Generals because of these raids against civilian populations were based on my recollection of conclusions voiced in the Max Hastings Book, “Bomber Command.” that I read many years ago.

Ginny wrote:

He was brown skinned and dark haired, and quite muscular. Bowlegged. Subject to violent sweats, which Bligh commented on.

I have read this description of Christian before. Being muscular and bow legged perhaps was not unusual for seamen in the age of sail. Being dark skinned was I think quite rare among the ‘English in the 18th century. Anthropologists have noted the existence of a dark skinned strain among the Irish said to be the result of the intermarriage of Irish girls and Spanish sailors surviving the defeat of the armada in the 1580’’s. Many survivors washed up on the Irish coast and stayed. I wonder about the conditions that brought on the violent sweats? Sweats working below deck in the humid interior of a ship in the tropics would not be unusual; in the North Atlantic they would not be likely. Could the sweating spells have been a symptom of some mental illness, anxiety or bi-polar (maniac-depressive) disorder?

I also think the Ginny’s quote commenting on Royal Navy promotion through ability, with birth counting much less than in the army, is well documented in the records. I understand that most of the Navy Lords were new creations like Lord Nelson who earned their title through successful command. Most RN awards were the non-hereditary knighthoods that were the usual award for successful performance along with promotion to admiral. Our Captain Bligh achieved flag status, but was denied knighthood. This suggests there was a cloud of suspicion hanging over him. In WW II perhaps the case of Air Marshal Harris who commanded the RAF bomber operations is similar. All of the other British senior generals and Admirals were elevated with knighthoods and the peerage, but bomber Harris was denied due to criticism of his saturation fire bombing of civilian cities.

Hough describes three paths for becoming an officer in the 18th century Royal Navy. . The most gentile route involved becoming an appetence under the tutelage of a captain. Captains were very selective and of course favored their family, keeping the trainee under their wing and protecting him from too much exposure the rigors of life at sea. A second method was attendance for two years at the Naval Academy at Portsmouth that had been in operations since 1727. Sons from the families of the “gentlemen” middle class and occasionally the second sons of noblemen might obtain admittance to this institution. These graduates were viewed with suspicion by the old salts because they lacked sea experience and the program smacked of intellectualism. Hough does not provide further detail, but I think further analysis centering on the active careers of these graduates and their success or failure in the Navy would be most interesting.

The third route was entry from the lower decks by way of the Master’s Mate rank. This was the way Bligh obtained his rank and it also appears to have been the route Fletcher Christian was following. Hough notes that this route was not as “democratic” as it might appear since you had to be nominated and a practical matter the nominees were almost always from the gentle class. It would appear that all of the Bounty’s midshipmen were in this route though the line between the first and third methods seems somewhat blurred. I guess I do not see Bligh being particularly protective or otherwise favoring any of these gentlemen

Tiger Tom and all: for a brief sketch on Bomber Harris click on the link. Bomber Harris was Sir Author Harris who commanded the RAF Bomber Command during WW II. I was wrong in as much as he did have his Knighthood title when he assumed the RAF Bomber Command. He designed the thousand plane nighttime raids on German cities and towns designed not just to destroy industrial targets, but specifically as morale destroying terror raids against civilian populations. My comment that he was denied the peerage awarded to most other senior British Generals because of these raids against civilian populations were based on my recollection of comments voiced in the Max Hastings Book, “Bomber Command.” that I read many years ago

Kennedy wrote that the "Bethia" (later renamed "Bounty")had to be approved by a person who was to sail in her in addition to the Navy Yard personnel. The "Bethia" was approved by Sir Joseph Banks and David Nelson, the gardener assigned to sail on the voyage. This was before Bligh was assigned to the ship. These two were interested in the adequacy as a floating green house not its suitibility for a voyage of the length proposed. As it turned out it was overcrowded and truly marginal for the job. When the Admiralty tried to the same job after the mutiny it sent Bligh in the "Providence" which was enough larger to have the proper company, a lieutenant and a small party of marines under their own lieutenant. The difference in the outcome of the two voyages is obvious.

Bligh requested and received discretionary orders that allowed him to sail by way of the Cape of Good Hope if it proved impossible to round Cape Horn. Kennedy writes "We might speculate what he (Bligh) would have done if discretionary orders had been refused: from his conduct, his numerous attempts, and his character, it is likely that he would have kept trying until the Bounty made it or sank." Interesting.

John Z

Betty Gregory wrote: in message #282:

The British Royal Navy has long had enough prestige associated with it that gentlemen classes and even royalty have long traditions of association.

Ah, true enough so long as the word, "assocate" is emphasized. In the 18th century they rearly made the service a career. This leads to an interesting trivia question:

Who was the last (maybe only) English manarch who participated in a Naval battle?

Betty,

You are speaking of the pure "Castillian" Spanish. from Northern Spain. The only area that was not conquered by the Moors. The "True" Spanish were Blonde and blue eyed and Red Haired and Blue or Green eyed with fair skin in both cases.

Interesting description of Christian in the Bounty Trilogy by Norduff and Hall:

"A fine figure of a Seaman in his plain blue,gold-buttoned frock Handsomely and strongly built with thick dark brown hair and a complexion naturally dark and burned by the sun to a shade rarely seen among the white race.... He looked more like a Spaniard than an Englishman.

His moods of gaiety alternated with fits of black depression and he possesed a fiery temper which he controlled by efforts that brought sweat to his brow."

Tiger Tom

Zwyram and all, I agree that the admiralty cut Bligh’s resources pretty close when they chose the 230-ton bounty. It was really too small particularly after the modification to provide a green house for the breadfruit. Bligh certainly made a de facto acceptance of the Bounty by accepting the command and sailing her. Without going too deep into Bligh’s second voyage, we note he was a bit more selective in the selection of personnel and ship. In fact he insisted a second ship. His command then consisted of the Providence and a supportive brig aptly named “Assistant.” The second time Bligh did not attempt the Horn, but went immediately to the longer, less stormy Cape of Good Hope route.

Regarding the attempt by the Bounty to pass Cape Horn, quite possibly, had the Bounty’s sailing orders not been delayed by Admiralty red tape an earlier arrival at the Horn would have found weather suitable for its westward passage.

Sixty years later Sailing Ship technology had been raised a notch with the development of the Clipper Ships.. Americian Clippers regularly passed the Horn to supply the California settlements. After the Civil War they made possible the Central Pacific constructing their track going east from Sacramento. All railroad rolling stock and heavy track was shipped from the East Coast on these ships. It was 1914 before the opening of the Panama Cannel eliminated the importance of the Horn p[assage.

Does anyone have any comment on the attempt to beat the Bounty westward past Cape Horn?

This was quite and experience that required the concentrated efforts of all the ship's company over a 25 day period March 29th - April 22nd). In the end with 9 men out of action with injuries and the Bounty badly leaking Bligh gave up. Bligh called all hands and told them "he was going to put over the helm and bear away east for Africa." He concluded his speech saying, "you have endured much and I congratulate and thank you all."

The adversity of the Cape Horn storm seems to have made the Bounty crew a team, exhausted, but with good feeling and with high morale that required five months at the Tahiti paradise to destroy!

This is the one place where having more able bodied seamen and fewer people on the rolls as able bodied seamen, midshipmen, fiddlers, etc. might have helped. From what I have read it probably would not have been enough to change the eventual outcome, but one never knows what might have been.

Ginny,

Any idea of what the price is on those Manuscripts?

tiger Tom

My telephone line has been down since yesterday. Apparently a contractor working on a pipeline cut the cable again. When I left the house this noon it was still out but apparently was restored sometime this afternoon.

Thank you Ginny for your post on the Fryer account. I guess the 1979 Genesis publication of Fryer’s mentioned in your post #288 is the one advertised for sale in the Genesis Web page that you linked in #289. Remember in an earlier post I mentioned that I have a 1981 facsimile copy of the log Bligh kept in the open boat voyage to Timor. This was by Pagminster Press in association with Argot Press and Mitchell Beazley. It includes a short introduction by a Stephen Walters and about a hundred oversize pages of facsimile hand writing. It was probably from the Admiralty copy which was a copy made by an Admiralty clerk. The handwriting is very neat and very readable certainly not written by Bligh bouncing around in an open book.

A New-comer

I'm just going to tip-toe quietly into the back row and lurk a little as I'm not up to speed, to say the least. This is an interesting discussion to me and you will understand why, when I tell you a little story.

My cousin was the Oceanographer who ran the ship for the movie (with Marlon Brando in 1960-61). They left from Lunenburg, Nova Scotia and Ross (my cousin) had to operate the ship while at sea and be seen as First Mate but at a distance, because that was Brando's role. This is neither here nor there as far as the book discussions go, but I thought you may find it interesting.

Ross came home from Tahiti in '61 and brought grass skirts, leis,(sp), and we have movie of him on his scooter in his "Wahini" in Tahiti.

After the movie, the ship went on promotional tour of U.S. and southern countries, at which time Ross was Captain.

Now, Ross was lost at sea a few years ago. He was sailing his own boat from Toney River, Nova Scotia to Cape Breton with his son, John and his dog, Mariner. For nine days, he wasn't heard from and sooner or later, his body washed ashore at Antigonish, N.S. and Mariner a little farther down the coast.

Neither his son nor the boat have been found to this day. The day Ross left with that boat, Mariner (who usually was first one on the boat) dug in his paws and literally refused to board. Ross had to carry him on. Some sort of "sixth dog sense", we all thought afterwards.

This has been a journey back in time for myself, as Ross' Mother just passed away 2 weeks ago.

Regards

Prancer,

Thanks for your post. Hope you do more than just lurk. Feel free to join in the discussion. Happy Valentines day.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom

Thank you, Tom. I've been to the library and borrowed the video (old black and white) Mutiny On the Bounty with Charles Laughton and Clark Gable, to refresh my memory. I'll start with this and hope to read the book as well.

Happy Valentines Day to you and everyone there.

I think this will be a lovely journey. Thanks for the welcome.

Prancer; thank you for telling the story of your cousin. He certainly played an essential part in the Brando movie. What a tragic ending, the sea is still a very dangerous place. Please join with your comments any time. You will always be most welcome.

Maybe it is time for some comment on the movies and the fiction writer’s treatment of the subject. I have seen three of the movies. Since I own a copy of the 1935 Gable/Laughton movie, I am most familiar with it. I saw “The Bounty” with Anthony Hopkins and Mel Gibson last months on of the cable channels. Of the three, as a movie I liked the Gable/Laughton production the best. Apparently others shared my view as it received 8 academy award nominations and won the best picture Oscar. It also was the highest grossing film for its year, 1935. I liked it for the high quality of the acting and most particularly for the writing of the script and how well it was put together. But as history, it was probably the worst of the lot, picturing Bligh from the Nortdhoff and Hall fiction as a sadist disciplinarian making no real attempt to reveal facts suggesting the responsibility Christian and other for the mutiny.

I saw the Marlon Brando, 1960’s remake back then and remember being most impressed with the photography. The color was indeed, spectacular. Somehow though it just didn’t seem to measure up to the earlier black and white production. Regarding the 1985 Hopkins/Gibson film as I reported last month, as a movie, I considered it the worst of the three. It wasn’t so much bad acting which might be considered pretty good. It was the continuity, how it was put together that left it uninteresting. Also I suspect it was made on a shoestring budget. Its only saving grace is that it is arguably the most true to history. I remember a web page I read a few months back when we were planning the discussion in evaluating these films said each successive remake came out truer to history than its predecessor. That is my assessment also, but I would add that as entertaining movies, each new production was worst than the prior one.

Harold,

I have always felt that Historical accuracy was NOT the prime concern of film makers.

Too many "Historical" films I have seen the film makers played fast and loose with History.

Come to that, film makers are not too good about adhering to a book either.

I keep getting the idea that the "Bounty" films were made more to showcase the Stars than present a historicaly accurate movie or one that even followed the book the movie was based on.

This is, of course, just my opinion.

Tiger Tom

Thank you, Harold, for the welcome.

I'm not very far into this as I've only reached (in the video) the part where Bligh was set adrift. (Interruptions, ugh.) I do think it would have been better to read the book first, though.

I have gone through all the posts in this discussion (MY EYES!) and will get some reading material soon.

I do agree, Tiger Tom, about movies being made for the purpose of showcasing the actors. Ladies, especially, would no doubt be caught up with the thought of Clark Gable in a film, since very few ladies would actually fancy a film about sailors and their trials. Had it not been for my cousin's part in the Brando film, there is little chance that I would have gone to that movie, way back then. Five other people with me actually fell asleep during the movie - however, they only went along because I wanted to see it. That was then, this is now, and I am really enjoying this.

Regards.

Thinking about the films I realized that I have NEVER seen the Brando version of the "Mutiny on the Bounty"

I have seen trailers advertising it but I have never actually watched the film from beginning to end.

So, Prancer, taking your review of it, I see that I didn't miss much.

The only thing that stuck with me about the Gable/Laughton move was Laughton, strutting around with his lips puffed out, shouting "MR CHRISTAN." Of course, I was quite young when I saw the film. The thing that stuck with me about the Gibson movie was how young he looked and how good Hopkins was in his role.

Tiger Tom

Hi Ginny!

Oh boy! What a post!

It was my cousin who operated the vessel, seen from a distance as First Mate, while at sea, because none of the actors had the qualifications to do that sort of thing. I haven't been able to locate that video in our small town here, but MUST get it somehow now. I had put this totally out of my mind over the years, having moved out West ( Edmonton, Richmond B.C.) but, when I saw it listed in Books and Lit. it "jump started my memory". I'll have to get in touch with those who are still living in his family (East Coast of N.S.) to find out whether he left any writing on this. He did say to me on one visit home that he was very fond of Marlon Brando and all those he worked with. I wish he was still alive.

Well, thanks and I'll get something done around the house now so that I don't get "sent below". haha Catch you all later.

After abandoning the attempt to round the Horn, the Bounty sailed east to Cape Town. There the Bounty underwent an extensive repair/refit period that lasted about 5 weeks (May 24th to July 1st). The crew also recovered on a healthy diet of fresh fruits, vegetables, meats, fish (caught by the Bounty crew in the bay) and real bread. The only mention of members of the Bounty crew on shore at Cape Town made by Hough is Nelson, the Botanist and Bligh. Nelson apparently made field trips to study and collect local plants. He also acquired local fruit and vegetable seeds that he later planted at the Islands the Bounty visited on the sail to Tahiti. According to Hough:

Bligh too, spent much time ashore, noting with approval the neatness and cleanliness of the town which had grown so fast in the eight years since he had last been here, applauding Dutch hospitality and courtesy, but deploring the treatment and conditions of the slaves, brought in by the French from Madagascar, Mozambique and Sumatra. ‘It is distressing,’ he wrote, ‘to see some of them carrying weighty burdens naked, or what is worse in such rags that one would imagine could not fail to reproach the owners of a want of decency and compassion in not relieving such a degree of wretchedness.’

Is Bligh by this quotation providing an example of the pot calling the Kettle black? Hough does not cite the source of the direct quotation that he attributes to Bligh. My sources say nothing about shore liberty for other officers or crew or any discipline imposed during the Cape Town period. Can anyone cite details from other sources involving discipline etc that might have figured later as a cause of the mutiny?

Another matter that puzzles me is how did Bligh pay for the supplies materials and services? These must have run upward of several thousand pounds, no insignificant sum in those days. It would seem unlikely that the Admiralty provided hard gold/silver to make such payments. Perhaps Bligh carried letters of credit or was there an English Counsel available to handle such matters. Did any of your sources provide information relative to these Questions?

Any one having further comment on the Cape Town layover should make it now. We can now move on to your comment on the 6,000-mile trek from Cape Town to Tahiti. In particular look at the happenings at the several islands visited by the Bounty. Lets be prepared to move by the middle or at the latest the end of next week to our crew at work and play in paradise after their arrival in Tahiti..

And as we are nearing the end of the discussion of the first section covering the voyage from England to Tahiti, I solicit your opinion regarding the several of the focus questions in the heading the answers to which are the opinion or conclusions of the participants. These include in particular the following:

Do you see signs of mental instability in any of the principals particularly Bligh and Christian?

Would you have enjoyed participation in this voyage, the accommodations, the food, and the entertainment.

What is your opinion of Bligh as the Captain and as a leader of men at sea? Was his discipline during this initial phase Justified and just? Was the attempt to take the short cut around Cape Horn a wise choice

Harold,

Bligh had authority from the Admiralty to sign for these things. Later the Dutch would present these to the British Admirallty who would then honor and pay them.

When Bligh, or any other Captain who did likewise returned to Britain he was expected to have receipts and his own copy of those "Purchase Orders" (for want of any other name that I cannot think of.)

The Captain's tally had to match that which the Admiralty was presented and paid.

This, oc course, is how Bligh got back to Britain after he reached the Dutch held port that he sailed the open boat to. He signed a lot of chits.

Tiger Tom

Betty, Harold,

Once a ship was out of sight of land, in the age of sail, the commanding officer was the law, period. He was judge, jury, and executioner.

Bligh had been given orders to try the Straits of Magellan, but to remember that his mission came first. He was, at all costs to get the ship to tahiti in once piece.

Due to delays his voyage was held up so long that when the Bounty reached the Straights Winter was coming on and the best time to cross the Straits had passed.

Bligh tried a number of times to go through but was unable without severe risk to the ship and the men.

Bligh, being no fool had arranged for prior permission to go around the cape of Good Hope if he judged that would be unable to navigate the Strait.

As far as leadership goes, the men under him tried and tried and did their best for him to navigate the straits and Bligh, when he felt he had tried enough to justify himself and the crew, gathered the crew together, complimented them and told them he was turning the ship East and going through the Cape. According to what I have read the Crew was happy he did so but also were ready to follow him in another try at the Straits.

Tiger Tom

Both Toohey in "Captian Bligh's Portable Nightmare" and Kennedy in "Bligh" point to an incident at Adventure Bay in what is now Tasmania as the point that the wheels began to fall off of the wagon. Purcell,the ships carpenter, disobeyed orders to help with wood gathering and watering while ashore, claiming that as a petty officer he was not required to do such manual labor. Bligh sent him out to the Bounty with orders to Fryer that Purcell was to work at loading water into the storage casks. Fryer didn't order Purcell to work, actually encouraging him to disobey orders. This put Bligh into exactly the bind that Fryer had in mind. Bligh could lock Purcell up until they got back to England and there court-martial him or he could break him to seaman and have him flogged. Because Purcell was a Warrant Officer these were the only choices by law that Bligh had. Bligh being Bligh blustered and fumed and cussed. He confined Purcell to quarters for a couple of days and then relented. At this point it didn't take a genious to figure out that the non-commishioned and warrant officers were really beyond punishment. Without a loyal officer corps behind him he was vulnerable from this time on. Much has been said about Bligh not being a flogger, but his real problems were with his officers and mates who couldn't be flogged. Bligh's only recourse was verbal abuse to his officers and mates. The one thread that runs through all of Bligh's career is his verbal abuse of those that were under his command when thay did not perform to his standards. On the Bounty where he had no official back-up this was at the bottom of all of his problems. Those other than Christian of the officer and mate group seemed to cope with verbal abuse better than he did. As an aside, isn't it interesting that the mutineers didn't want either Fryer or Purcell on board after the mutiny. I think that Bligh would have gladly left them behind.

Thank you zwyram for your telling of the Purcell incident at Adventure Bay. Hough does not detail this incident. I did a quick read of the short large print “Portable Nightmare" book, but either forgot the incident at Adventure Bay or missed it all together. Purcell was most certainly a troublemaker with at least one other incident at Tahiti in which he refused Bligh's order for him to cut some stones for a native chief. It seems he was using his own tools and thought them unsuitable for the used. The Adventure Bay incident also illustrates the chip that Freyer perpetually carried on his shoulder. You may be right in your conclusion that Bligh would have gladly left both Purcell and Freyer behind.

Also in the incident you describe again illustrates the problem resulting from the high ratio of officers, petty officers and mission specialists and the absence of marines in the Bounty's crew. There were not enough seamen personnel to run the ship and the mates and petty officers were reluctant to give up privileges while Bligh did not have the marines to enforce his decisions..

I think that either marines to enforce discipline or a group of loyal officers would have done the job. Bligh alienated the officer corps that he needed by this time. The one who should have been most loyal to Bligh was Christian who was promoted over Fryer. Knowing that he had let down his sponser may have been part of Christian's later problems.

While at Tasmania , Bligh stopped to take on wood and water. There efforts were made to talk with the natives who retreated inland when they saw the English landing. The crew could see their fires glowing at night but no contact could be made. Only Brown, the botanist Nelson’s assistant, made a brief contact when he became separated from his party and the surf came up too strong to permit the Bounty’s boat to pick him up. He met a native family and signaled the Bounty. Bligh immediately sent a boat with presents and Nelson, but while landing the natives panicked and fled into the forest. Brown described the family hut as a small bark covered wigwam and their only possession as a fiber woven blanket used to carry shellfish home from the beach.

Nelson the botanist who had been with Cook on his great Pacific Voyage, went ashore at Tasmania to seek botanical specimens. He had done the same at Cape Town and would again do so at Tahiti and still later at Timor, after surviving the open boat journey to Timor. It was certainly a great scientific loss when he became ill on Timor and died there. I suspect his reports on the Cape Town, Tasmania and Tahiti discoveries never got back to England, as I do not remember any mention of him taking them from the Bounty to the Launch when the Mutiny came.

Anyone who has further comment of the Bounty trek from England to Tahiti should post them now. In a few days I will replace the focus questions in the heading for part 2, the Bounty experience at Tahiti while gathering breadfruit plants. We will then begin our part 2 discussion toward the end of the week.

Thanks Ginny

I have to confess that I've only seen the Laughton/Gable video so I don't really feel prepared to comment in any depth. I can say, though, that I wouldn't have fancied taking that journey! A question I would have, is, how possibly could any form of discipline been effective under those conditions regardless of who dealt it out. It certainly must have been far worse in reality than what a movie can show.

I'm looking forward to viewing your video. My cousin is the one who operates the ship while at sea. When I look at the video, maybe I can spot him in other places and will tell you where as I forgot since early '60's.

Cheerio.

Ginny,

About rounding the Horn:

Remember inthe days of sail a ship simply did not move that fast. Having to sail almost into the wind didn't help.

Due to the Coriolis (didn't spell that right) effect weather moves west to east. Which means that most winds are Westerly. (we know this in Wasington State because we constantly get rain due to those westerly winds, whereas on the east coast they stay dry unless a good Nor'easter blows.)

When bligh took his second voyage he left earlier in the year and had much better weather. When he returned he sailed through the Straits with the wind at his back which made it easier.

No, 31 days doesn't sound unreasonable given the time of the year.

sailing back East to the Cape wasn't a big deal but rounding the cape was never that easy. It was, however, a whole lot easier than the Straits of magellen in early winter.

Tiger Tom

Prancer

In today's world we wonder how a ships captain maintained discipline in the days of sail

In the days of sail a ships commander, or Captain if you will, was the law (God in a way) the only law around. In this the captain was backed to the hilt by the Admiralty (even for merchant ships.) this was agreed to by all maritime nations. It was the only way that sailing could be kept from anarchy. the captain was right, period.

True there were some regulation that was written down that he captain was supposedly to follow. Nevertheless, the Captain had a lot of leeway.

A captain could have a sailor (but not an Officer) flogged, keel hauled, or put on Bread and Water, whatever. A captain could even maroon a sailor if he judged the Sailor to be a hazard to the ship and crew (it did happen.)

Usually, no matter how cruel a captain was, his authority was backed up by the Admiralty.

Mutiny was a hanging offense if found guilty. A sailor could be tried and hung by the ships Officers while at sea for that charge.

When a ship was on a voyage that might take two years away from the home country, there was no choice but for the Captain to have full charge.

As has been noted, the Lack of Marines put Bligh in danger because he had no reliable means of enforcing his will.

Also, people are funny. Many see kindness as a sign of weakness and are made bolder because they think that way. Usually their reaction, when they find out that a kind man is not necessarily weak, can be violent.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom

Thanks for the excellent explanation. Every time I shut my eyes, I'm bouncing around on that ship and trying to put myself in the shoes of each person, particularly Bligh and Christian. So often, they had nothing left to loose, which would come into play, but so would loyalty.

I agree that kindness translates to weakness (been there raising children, as an example) and know that the end result worked because of sticking to authority, therefore, agree that Bligh had to hold the line as best he could. This may have led to overstepping (easily done) with total power. I'm ending up a little on each side of the fence; which is not really a conclusion. Gonna keep sailing!!

P.S. The National Geographic April or May 1963 is almost totally dedicated to the Bounty.

From what I have gotten from the local library here is a short summary of footnotes and indexes. "Bligh" by Gavin Kennedy is both well indexed and has the only footnotes of any of the books I have read. This is probably the best overall book on the subject, if a little light on the Christian side. "Captain Bligh's Portable Nightmare" by John Tooey is neither indexed nor footnoted. It is disjointed and difficult to find things in it. It uses lots of "flashbacks" which without an index makes looking something up almost impossible. "An Account of the Mutiny on HMS Bounty" by william Bligh, edited by Robert Bowman is edited to death. This book was a real dissapointment, there was very little meat in it. Captain Bligh and Mr. Chistian" by Richard Hough seems to be well indexed but does not have footnotes.

Toohey has dialog in his description of what I think is a pivotal event at Adventure Bay where Purcell refuses to work and Fryer backs him up, if not instigating the whole affair, that makes me wonder about some of the rest of what he writes. Kennedy reports essentially the same event in his book. Kennedy ties this into Fryer's refusal to sign the books in the following days, but without the dialog. Kennedy footnotes his work very thoroughly but records no dialog. Where did Toohey's dialog come from? Since he doesn't cite any source it might be the author's imagination.

Ginny,

I thought I brought up that Bligh signed for those purchases. What today would be known as a Purchase order. Sometimes called a chit.

Anyway, bligh signed and the supplier presented that to the Admiralty and the Admiralty paid it.

The person who signed the Chit (Bligh in this case) Would be expected to give a full accounting to the Admiralty when he returned to Britain. The admiralty expected receipts and tally's and whatever other paper work the Captain had so that they could compare what the Supplier presented to them for payment and what the Captain said he actually got and signed for. Not exactly a Visa Card but about the same thing for that day and age.<P. Doubt if the Admiralty gave ships Captains Letters of Credit although that would have worked.

Bligh signed a bunch of those chits once he reached the port after his voyage in the open boat. that is how he got home: Obtained food and lodging for himself and his men and also paid his passage home. I believe he also bought a small schooner too.

Tiger Tom

Ginny

I don't even HAVE that National Geographic myself. I was told about it in email by my sister, so I am on the search through library as well. I wish I had taken this seriously back when it all happened - but who knew. Too soon old and too late schmardt?

My Grandfather used to have a barn full of National Geographics - all the way back to the first one, I think, but they got "here, there and everywhere" and I was on the other end of Canada when they passed away. Probably wouldn't have had the sense at that age to go through and realize what was valuable. Darn.

Later...

Bligh's orders were to sail to Tahiti by way of Cape Horn. He got the orders ammended to allow him to go by way of the Cape of Good Hope if going around the horn proved to be impossible. I would say that 31 days pretty well proved it to be impossible. On his second trip he was smarter and had more political clout, and had the orders written to go by way of Cape of Good Hope. To condem him for trying to round the horn a little tough. The question is, when is enough when trying to round the horn.

Zwyram,

You are right: Orders are orders and bligh being a good Royal Navy Officer would have tried to fulfill them until he felt justified in calling it quits.

In our modern day such a thing existed:

I was on a Pan Am flight from calcutta to Bangkok with a stop in Rangoon. Rangoon was fogged in. The Pan Am pilot tried three times to land and after roaming around in the Telephone Poles he headed for Bangkok. When we were safely back up to 30,000 feet he got on the intercom and explained that company regulations required him to try three times to land at an Aiport before continuing on if unsucceful. He also added that Pan Am was the ONLY airline that had that regulation. All others left it up to the Pilots decision wether to try to land or not.

It may be that the Royal Navy required a ships Captain to make a determined effort to fulfill orders except at complete risk of loss of ship. Who Knows.

Bligh never struck me as foolish nor full of Bravado. He had been around the Horn with Cook (I think twice) so he was familiar with it. I believe he tried because he was ordered to. He must have had a good idea that the attempt probably would fail before he left England because he had obtained permission to go by the Cape if passage through the Straits of Magellen was not possible.

Tiger Tom

Ginny,

Aboput Christians sweating:

In Norduff and Hall's book Mutiny on the bounty they said that Christain had a fiery temper and that in trying to control it he sweated profusely.

Tiger Tom

The Lady Washington, under command of Captain Gray, The man who Gray's Harbor is named after, sailed around the Horn with twelve (12) people on board. That was the entire crew: Captain, Mate, and seamen.

It sailed around the Horn at the most favorable time of the year.

That should give you and idea of the difference between the best time of the year and the time Bligh tried the Horn with the Bounty.

Tiger Tom

My telephone is out again and I am posting this from my work at the National Historical Park. The following is a conmment on Ginny's question yeaterday relative to the time spent in the unsuccessful atttempt to pass the Horn. This evening I will look at the several posts dated today and make further reply.

Hough in “Captain Bligh and Mr Christian” gives the duration of the bounty’s attempt to beat west around the Horn as 25 days. The ordeal according to him began the night of March 28th – 29th and ended when Bligh gave the order to turn around on the afternoon of April 22nd. As might be expected after the turn with the strong west winds now propelling them eastward they made good time, arriving at Cape Town on May 24th (a 38-day journey)

The bounty remained in Cape Town for over five weeks for re-supply and much needed repairs departing on July 1st. It made landfall at Mewstone off Tasmania on July 23. I note an apparent inconstancy in the Hough text concerning the track from Cape Town to Tasmania. He refers to this trek as “the longest leg of the voyage, clear across the Indian Ocean for well over 6,000 miles.” If the Bounty made it in 23 days this would mean an average run of about 261 miles during every 24-hour day. While such a run might be possible in a very favorable wind, somehow this don’t seem likely to have occurred over a 23 day period. Perhaps Hough is incorrect in either the length of the run or the time duration of the transit?

Zwyram I agree a decent index is a must in a history book. I don’t know that I would grade the index in Hough, “Captain Bigh and Mr Christian” as any higher than “C”, but it has been a big help to me in finding particular events for further reading. Of all the books that I own, have looked at libraries or examined their catalog description, I am still inclined to recommend Hough though I know it is not perfect. To date I think its most serious defect brought to my attention has been its failure to mention the Purcell incident at Adventure Bay involving Purcell’s refusal to work and Fryer ‘s backing him. Hough does mention Purcell’s later refusal to cut a stone desired by a native chief.

Tiger Tom, thank you for you mention of the “Chit method of paying. From your description it sounds more like a draft than a visa card. Apparently RN Captains were authorized to write drafts on Admiralty accounts to pay for needed supplies in foreign ports. A draft is a negotiable instrument much like a check. It is an order to a particular Bank to pay a specific sum. We don’t see drafts much today since the use of printed coded checks came into use. Fifty years ago it was quite common for stores to provide a store draft, a printed instrument that a customer would use to pay for a purchase. The customer filled in the amount and the name of the bank and signed it. It would then be sent to the bank for payment in the same manner as a check.

When I was in the Navy as a teenager in the 1940’s the term “chit” was commonly used. As I remember, it was more a paper given a sailor entitling him to receive something from a supply depot. Incidentally I took my Pacific cruise in the summer of 1945. We left San Francisco in July 1945 on a Naval troop Transport loaded with some 3,000 sailors and marines for the Philippines. I remember the first 2 nights on the pacific were foggy and cold. On the third night already it was too hot to sleep in my billet deep down inside the hull. From that night on almost every one slept on deck. I remember more than once waking up in a rain shower. It got worse when we were put on two meals a day and one of the evaporators broke down permitting only salt-water showers. They dropped the Atomic bomb while we were at sea. I remember hearing the news and remarking to a buddy, ”….ug is that an oxidization reaction? About this time the Indianapolis passing from Guam to the Philippines took a four-torpedo spread from a Jap submarine sinking in minutes. We most often had anti-Submarine escort, but quite frankly it would not have taken four torpedoes to sink that old American Presidents Line tub. I note that several of you have answered the question as to whether or not you would have enjoyed the Bounty trip negatively. I will not do otherwise with my advantage of hindsight I will say emphatically that it would take at least a full squad of Royal Marines to get me aboard .

Betty Gregory I think the rounding the horn has long been thought of as the great sailing achievement/experience. Before the 1914 opening of the Panama Canal much of the sea traffic to the Pacific from Europe and the east cost of the Americas made the passage. I do think the time of year was a big factor. The Admiralty should have changed its sailing orders after it delayed the Bounty’s sailing as it did. Instead of simply asking permission the go by way of Good Hope if the Horn transit proved impossible, Bligh should have asked for permission to make the Cape of Good Hope the primary route. Sixty years later the development of the clipper ships made the sailing of the Horn easier. In the 1850’s American Clipper runs brought settlers and heavy products to California from the east coast. In the 60’s they carried the heavy rails and rolling stock that the Central Pacific RR used to build their part of the transcontinental RR. Since 1914 I suspect there has been much less commercial traffic on this route.

Harold,

A book you might like: "Crossing the Line," A Bluejacket's World War II Odyssey.

It is not Hollywood for sure. But a darned good read.

Tiger Tom

Harold,

Oops, I forgot: the author of "Crossing the Line" was Alvin Kernan.

Bit of Trivia from it: Richard Boone of Movie and T.V. fame was a white cap in the war and part of Kernan's outfit.

Tiger Tom

Not much as been said in this discussion about Bligh’s role in the 1779 action at Karakakooa Bay in the Hawaiian Island in which the great navigator, Captain Cook was killed. Hough goes into some detail in describing the incident on pages 36 through 48. The two English Vessels, HMS Discovery and HMS Resolution were wintered in Hawaii, intending to return to Alaskan waters in the spring to seek a northern water passage to Europe. They were looking for a suitable anchorage where they could refit their ships and take on water and supplies. They found Karakakooa which was not ideal but since it was the best available they decided it would have to do. From the beginning they found the natives a great annoyance many climbing aboard the ships much inclined to steal anything that was not bolted down. Cook seemed quite patient negotiating with the chiefs, and the natives provided the English with much food and supplies. Perhaps in so doing the native economy was adversely effected as the small bay supported two large villages with a high population density.

After several weeks one of the ships small boat was stolen by native frogmen, swimming underwater to cut a 5 in rope securing it. In response Captain Cook designed an operation to show force with the idea of negotiating the return of the boat and the punishment of the thieves. Cook with group of marines supported by two ships boats with armed sailors went to the shore. Two other boats were to patrol near the mouth of the bay under Cook’s orders to prevent the escape of native canoes. Bligh was in command of one of these and a lieutenant junior to Bligh commanded the other.

Cook and his marines landed and were confronted by a large and angry mob of natives, The two support boats remained available nearby. Negotiations begun and there were indications that a peaceful settlement might result. Out in the Bay Bligh sighted a native canoe in the process of escaping to the sea. Pursuant to his orders he gave chase to prevent the exit. The second English craft also gave chase to another native canoe. Blighs orders were to prevent the escape of natives fleeing the bay. When he could not do otherwise he ordered musket fire. The Resolution at anchor also fired one or more cannons in support of Bligh. Apparently Bligh’s fire had no effect and the canoe escaped. The junior lieutenant in the other craft hearing Bligh's fire, also opened fire on the boat it was chasing killing one native.

Ashore the sound of the musket fire from Bligh’s boat, from the other boat, and the canon fire from the bay again aroused the mob of natives. Undismayed by musket fire from Cook and his marines, the outnumbered English were mobbed with heavy causalities one of which was Captain Cook. It was the sound of the fire in the bay ordered by Bligh that was the torch setting off the mob to violence, and some have cited Bligh’s action in ordering the fire as the cause of Cook's death. Yet, it cannot be said that Bligh acted precipitously. While Cooks orders did not explicitly authorize Musket fire, it was clearly implied by the order to stop natives escaping from the bay. When Bligh saw the native craft, which was better suited for sailing through the serf than the English boat would escape, he ordered what was his only chance to prevent it. As it happened that was the critical moment and Cook’s death and the deaths of many marines was the result

You might note I have revised the heading to change the discussion to Topic II, the period that the Bounty spent at Tahiti, Any one wanting to make further posts on the Voyage from England can do so now. The heading will now highlight in red the section of the outline currently under discussion.

Also I have up-dated the Focus questions to be relative to our second topic. If anyone wants to add further questions put them in a post or send them to me by E-mail, and I will put them in the heading.

Betty,

One of those notorious, Sadistic, Commanders was Nelson!

More than once he had a seaman flooged "round the fleet" Fogging round the fleet meant that the man (seaman) was put into boat and was rowed to every Royal Navy ship in Harbor. The man was given a certain amount of lashes (Usually 20) in front of every ship. 10 ships 200 lashes; 20 ship 400. that was a death sentence. No one ever survived that many strokes of the cat laid on by a strong and willing Bo'suns mate.

Then there was Keel hauling. A man was dragged under the keel of a ship. The barncles probably would cut the man to ribbons. However, if the captain really didn't like the man the crew who were doing the pulling of the rope that was tied to the man to drag him was ordered to pull very slowly. The man would be drowned when he was pulled up on the other side of the ship.<P.

Those two things were not uncommon in the Royal Navy of Bligh's day and were done by men held in high esteem by the Admiralty. The admiralty never turned a hair at those actions nor tried to stop them.

Bligh never did either, not wanted to.

I am fairly certain that the men under Bligh would rather a Captain given to tounge lashings than the Cat or Keel Hauling.

Actually, the men put up with much more physical abuse from the Bo'suns mate who carried a Knout (a rope with a large knot tied on one end which had been dipped in tar and allowed to dry. Being supple the rope was traveling at a good speed when the knot hit a man) which he used liberaly when he didn't feel the men were moving fast enough or doing a good enough job. If the Bo'sun didn't have a Knout handy then a belaying pin would do.

As a commander goes Bligh was a good one in that he cared for his ship and his crew and did his best to keep both in good order and good health.

Bligh's biggest fault was he was too kind to men who were used to captains who could care less about them, their health and who were liberal with the lash.

Unfortunately, there are those who regard kindness as a sign of weakness and try to take advantage of that.

Bligh thought he had a loyal crew and that he had done nothing out of the ordinary to incite the crew to rebellion. He was partially right. He was wrong about the loyalty of some of the men and he paid for it.

Betty if you were a bunch of men who had been to sea for many months and suddenly saw a whole bunch of women coming on board and who you had heard were every man's dream come true, would you be paying attention to what the men coming on board were doing? Or give a thought to order or decorum?

After the novelty wore off, yes. but by then a lot of things probably had disappeared off the ship. Not to mention the fact that the tahitian mothers were bringing their daughters on board and were "Selling" them to the men. Some of the seaman were lifting things from the ship and trading those items for the females later claiming that the items had been stolen by the natives.

Tiger Tom

I had a “Bounty” like afternoon here. It was about 4:00PM when the new norther roared through Guadalupe County. There were a few clouds, but no rain here. For the next two hours there were 40 MPH gusts, one right after the other. My fifty ft tall pine trees swayed like the Bounty’s poles when the Cape Horn Gale hit her. I’m sure Bligh trimmed his sails to the bare poles, something I could not do as my tops are permanently installed and rather full. I was concern lest one or more break but they all came through with no visible damage. I was working an Excell spreadsheet and dum-dum lost about an hours work when the lights flickered out for about 30 seconds shutting it down. Though the lights were back in less than a minutes the telephone again was all messed up. First it rang continually until my confused machine picked it up. I disconnected the phone from the wall and when I re-plugged it a few minutes later the telephone line was dead. I was surprised it came back by 6:00. I figured it would be dead until tomorrow.

In the 1935 Bounty movie with Charles Laughton and Clark Gable, there is an early scene in which a seaman on a barge is taken ship to ship for the allotted number of lashes. Bligh is very pleased that the little Bounty was included in the ceremony. When he gets to the Bounty the Boson goes down the latter to the barge with his favorite cat-o-nine. He calls back to Bligh that the man is dead. "No matter," Laughton calls back," his sentence was for 20 lashes, give em to him." There was also a "keel haul" scene despite the fact that the is no record of such an event on the Bounty,

Finally at the very end the producers again re-write history by making Nelson a member of the Court Martial. After the Death by hanging sentence is pronounced and the prisoners are led out, Bligh goes to Nelson and congratulates him on returning the verdict and the severe sentences. Nelson is very cool to Bligh, commending him as a navigator and seaman, but leaving little doubt of his opinion of Bligh as a RN officer. That movie wasn't much for history, but as a movie, it was the best of the lot.

EVERYONE

Is SN having a "Bounty" like" day or is it only me?

Depends,

What is a "Bounty" like day?

Since my I.S.P. is so lousy I cannot tell if the SN is having problems or not.

Tiger Tom

Prancer, what is your “Bounty like day like? I imagine you caught my comment yesterday about the wind roaring through my pine trees as if emulating the Cape Horn wind through the Bounty’s rigging. Today it is much calmer with sunshine and 75 degrees.

What did you think of the wild reception the Bounty received when it arrived at Tahiti? I think though it might be considered mild in comparison to some received by Cook and mentioned in the Hough book. One sounded like it came close to endangering the ship with so many natives climbing on the same side as to cause a list. And they swarmed all over the vessel up in the rigging and below decks. This bunch seemed to be in pretty good control in comparison. But what with all the eager girls, the crew including ratings, petty officers, midshipmen and officers with the possible exception of Bligh, must have been in hog heaven. I’m surprised Bligh got the Bounty safely anchored. The Tahitians certainly did not share the European custom of keeping their women isolated from visiting strangers. I note other primitive cultures seemed inclined in this manner also, including many of the American Indians. Perhaps this relates to a tribal intuition to diversify the available gene pool.

The prospect of acquiring European manufactured goods was also a motive. The Tahitians by the time of the Bounty visit knew the Europeans had many fine products made with metals and other things that they did not have. They were eager get what goodies that they could either by trade or thievery. I know of at least one example of Europeans meeting incoming ship as they approached their home shore to trade. It was 1n 1826 when John James Audubon on the Delos from New Orleans, approach the Irish coast where they were met by peddler boats selling things like fresh meat, eggs fruits etc to the long at sea passengers. Also I remember in 1945 it was not uncommon for peddler boats to meet Navy craft coming into a Pacific harbor. On the Naval troop carrier taking me to the Philippines, we stopped briefly at several atolls and finally our destination, a fleet anchorage in a bay in southern Luzon. The anchor was hardly down before peddler boats appeared trading usually hand craft items for things like shirts or other articles of clothing. Our Bligh had the Boson turn the high pressure fire hose on them and believe me none were allowed on board.

In marked contrast to the fraternization allowed the Bounty crew, at Ulithe atoll; where I was stationed the Navy isolated the Melanesian natives on a single islet in the ring of small islands forming the atoll. The base facilities were on others islets. Sometimes native men would land on our island. I remember them standing at stiff attention when: “to the colors” was played as the flag was lowered in the evening. I don’t think I remember seeing a single native girl in the three months I spent there. Ah, “the times they are a changing.”

Harold and Tom

My "Bounty" like day was just as Harold described, only in cyberspace. When and if I did get into SN, I was promptly "washed ashore". Well, I had to get my Irish up and climb that mast again -but - woosh - back I went, into the bushes.

Anyway, enough of that gibberish. I just couldn't hang onto my SN connection today, so I gave up and went 10 pin bowling. Ow. My bones!

I'm presently watching Bligh send that man back up the pole for another shower! My video is overdue at the library, but I'll worry about that tomorrow, like Scarlett...!

Harold Arnold

Well, another day it is - and the video is back at the library (psst, I sent my husband in case I was fined!! haha). My thoughts re when the Bounty arrived at Tahiti??? Well. I wonder how much ardour the sailors, etc. would have left had they been "pounced upon". Too much of a good thing, perhaps? Me, I would have been running to the other end of the island to hide! However, in that day and place, how do I know what I would have been like...perhaps that was the custom when every vessel arrived - more to grab what goods they could before the other one and maybe use the ladies as distractions while they looted? I'm getting way out in the "guessing" world here. Someone else may have a far more sensible answer than this. I did enjoy reading about the experiences that you told us in your last post here.

P.S. I think every time I "get all tore up" about something - I'm going to henceforth call it "having a Bounty day".

In July 1776, Cook sailed again to determine whether a Northwest Passage .......... He then returned to the Sandwich Islands, where he was killed during a skirmish with islanders over the theft of a boat.

"Cook, James," Microsoft (R) Encarta. Copyright (c) 1999 Microsoft Corporation. Copyright (c) 1999 Funk & Wagnall's Corporation.

Hough said that the Bounty crew was under orders not to mention that Cook was dead. Also he wrote that the principal chief in contact with the Bounty crew had a painting of Cook that the navigator had given him. He said it hung in his hut like a religious symbol. In the 1935 film as I remember it, the chief asks Bligh at their initial meeting for the hat Cook had promised him. Bligh, taken by surprise, immediately orders his clerk to fetch the hat (i.e. Bligh's own hat) from his cabin. The clerk finally figures out what Bligh means, and brings the hat that Bligh presents to the chief.

There is generally no shortage of back issues of the National Geographic on the used book market. I’ll check our Half Price Book store for the Dec, 1957 issue. If anyone has other dates post them tomorrow, and I will see if they are available. I remember way back in the 40’s or 50’s an article in National Geographic with underwater pictures of the Bounty’s remains. I think I remember a picture of the rudder and some of the hull. That does seem a long time for oak. More recently a report from an underwater inspection of the Titanic indicated the teak decks were in a good state of preservation, but that was teak and only 80 years had elapsed and the cool north Atlantic waters are less destructive than the warm Pacific.

The Hough account of the conflict in which Cook was killed indicates that the Polynesian people could be very volatile. A friendly disposition became belligerent quite quickly. The English might not have recognized the very real reason for the change. In Cooks situation the presence of the English may well have been a serious economic drain on the local economy that was dependent on the resources of a small bay to support a large native population. The English had been there and acquired many supplies. They then decided to move on in hope of finding another more suitable bay. When none was available, they returned and that was the point when the native attitude changed

EVERYONE

This info. given to me re the National Geographic. There is a National Geographic dated about Apr. or May, 1963 (you mnay find that in the library) which was almost totally dedicated to The Bounty and her sailors,

Ginny, please tell us more about the Bligh Log. Is it a facsimile of the actual Bounty log? In other words did Bligh bring the log he kept back to England? Or is it a Bligh rewriting from memory after his return? How many pages are there?

If it is a facsimile in hand written script is it easy or hard to read. My facsimile of the Bligh writtin in the open boat voyage to Timor, But it is from a copy made by an Admiralty clerk. I suppose the copist was a real pro, for as old scrip copy goes this is very legiable and easy to read.

GINNY

Thanks for your post. I have one more article written on Ross' life (just sent to me) which I'll email you right away. I think my sister is "rooting through" to find that National Geographic because she does have it so she will have the EXACT date. Hope so.

I've been knee deep into the movie (Brando) and I kind of find it more "show biz" than the first one. I keep wondering what our "crew of guys" here in this site would have done with all the beauties!!! How did it happen, even with visiting sailors, that all the natives still looked Tahitian?? I suppose that IS show biz.

I "borrowed" the painting from the start of this site ('Bounty' sails south to the Horn) and put it on my desktop. When I bring up brightness in the morning, it just takes my breath away and then I darken it in the evening. Just to try and feel what it would have been like in that environment. Beautiful, storm and all. I could paint that,(my own version) but wouldn't copy. That particular one takes my fancy most, I think.

Guess I'd better get some sort of thoughts written up regarding the first leg of the trip. WOW; that's what comes to mind.

That canoe is sure something. I imagine that it is something like what the Polynesians sailed the Pacific in when they went exploring and colonizing.

This is getting better and better all the time. Hopefully items like the canoe and the photo's that Prancer sent will draw lurkers into the discussion.

Tiger Tom

I DIGRESS

Ginny: On my way to Books this morning, I got delayed in the Dates We Celebrate - Cards folder and there are some wonderful Irish jigs, reels, and hornpipes there, so I just HAD to do my Cape Breton aerobics. Couldn't sit down, so I see the sun has risen well over the Bounty on this screen now!

Thinking of the word Otaheite (today anyway) sounds like something out of the Irish language. Like O'Prancer!! haha. Just kidding. It must have been the spelling originally and has changed over the years. That would be an interesting point. I read or heard that our East Coast was once attached to the British Isles. How do we know that some islands didn't separate like the continents did?

Answer me that, now lass!

Thank you Ginny for your link to for the Harris summary of Bounty bibliography materials. I gather from reading this that the original Bounty day-to-day log kept by Bligh between its sailing Dec 23, 1787 and the mutiny on April 28, 1789 was lost, i.e. it remained with the Bounty and has never been available either to the Admiralty or historians. The several written accounts attributed to Bligh were, therefore composed by Bligh from memory after his return to England. While I do not discount the value of such writing as source material, it must be remembered that memory at its best is not perfect and is easily edited to serve the particular purpose of the author who in this case certainly had incentive to make his record look goods.

Ginny mentioned that the canoe sort of suggested the Egyptians which brings to my mind the question, where did the Polynesian natives come from? I suppose anthropologists still consider the most likely source was from Asia to the east. However during the 1940’s and 50’s the Norwegian anthropologist, Thor Heyerdahl explored an interesting alternate possibility an extension of which suggested an Egyptian connection. The principal theory was that the original Polynesians came from the west coast of South America. The theory was that primitive South Americans used balsa log rafts utilizing the west flowing Humboldt Current to propel them from Peru to Polynesia. Such a raft was built and Heyerdahl and a 5 man Nordic European crew sailed it from Peru to Polynesia in 1947. The voyage was the subject of an immensely popular book, “Kon Tiki,” read by just about everyone including me. The only problem is all it proved was that such a raft equipped with a bit of modern navigation knowledge and equipment did successfully make it to Polynesia terra firma. That is a far cry from proving that the Polynesian people were descendents of early Inca voyagers.

Heyerdahl raised another remote theory concerning the source of native North Americans. He theorized that instead of being Asians crossing a north Pacific Ice Bridge, the first Americans were ancient Egyptians sailing papyrus reed boats from the Nile delta past Gibraltar to the East coast of South America. Again being a doer at heart Heyerdahl built such a boat named “Ra” and with an international crew sailed past Gibraltar into the Atlantic and on in the direction of South America. Fortunately he had include rudimentary radio equipment so the crew was rescued when ‘Ra” began to break up in stormy weather. A second attempt in another, “Ra II,” finally succeeded in completing the voyage. There was another successful book “Ra” not quite as popular as “Kon Tiki. I read it, but don’t remember as well as the earlier work. Again it did not prove anything other than that such a craft might be capable of making the journey, again far short of proof that ancient Egyptians actually made such a voyage.

Beyond question the primitive Polynesians wherever they originally came from were expert sailors and their doubled hull 60-foot voyaging canoes were a very practical craft for their thousand mile voyages across the open Pacific. Also these sailors were excellent navigators who with out a compass but by the stars and observation of flights of birds, clouds, and currents made long treks from one Island to another. Click here for Polynesian sailing information sites. This site is entitled “Polynesian Migrations, Part I.” At the end of this paper is a link to Part II and 20 other sites concerning Polynesian migrations, canoes and sailing.

Harold,

I wonder if that original Log went down with the Bounty when it was burned and sank or if Christian or one of the other Sailors brought on shore with them when they landed on Pitcairn Island?

alternativly, Might it have been pitched overboard by the Mutineers after bligh was cast adrift so that no reminder of bligh remained on board the Bounty.

I will bet that Historians would kill to get their hands on that Log.

You are right, Bligh probably edited his memories of the log to benefit himself. Not unsual in a Human is it?

Tiger Tom

Ginny,

Thanks,

I wondered about the Log. I thought that Bligh did not have it with him in the Launch so it must have remained on board the Bounty.

When and how did it end up in the Mitchell Library? Any idea? that must be a story in itself.

Tiger Tom

I don't know, Tom, I'll write them and find out!~

ginny

If the ORIGINAL Bounty's log made by Bligh between the sailing Dec 23, 1787 and the mutiny April 18 1789 exists in Australia today, I can only conclude that Bligh carried it with him when he left the Bounty in the launch. If it had remained on the Bounty it would almost certainly have been lost. Bligh must have carried it back to England. I am surprised to hear it exists today, because I do not remember any mention of it in the dialog between Bligh and the mutineers prior to Bligh's departure.

The facsimile copy of the log in my possession begins the day of the mutiny, April 18, 1789 and gives a day-by-day account through and a bit after the landfall on Timor. An Admiralty clerk is said to have made this very neat hand written copy in England for the Admiralty records

Why do I think the Mitchell Library will talk about the Bligh log if it has not been published until now? But look what they DO have online?

The Papers and Letters of Sir Joseph Banks

Back anon....

ginny

Ginny

That penmanship is amazing. I had a Grandfather (born 1874) who wrote in exactly that style and I have a letter penned from him.

Ginny,

Great! I must admit I saw the same thing while doing some research but missed the importance of it. Since it was about correspondence to Banks and the list was so long I didn't scroll down the list and missed the Bligh letters.

Wonderful that you were more alert than I was.

Tiger Tom

Ginny, thank you for all the work you have contributed here. The Bligh writing that you quoted in message #366 crediting the clerk, Mr Samuel with securing Bligh's Journal, Commission and material ships papers apparently explains how what we have been referring to as the "Log" was saved. It was either the "Journal” or part of the "Material ship's Papers." Bligh carried them with him in the open boat to Timor and back to England. It will be interesting to hear any comment from the Mitchell Library.

Just Received

I just got an email from my sister. We are both to be keelhauled because the National Geographic date was wrong - and everyone has been searching high and low. OOHHHH! Sorry!!!!! sob sob ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ She said:

I found the National Geog. It is April 1962. There are no pics. of Ross in it but a couple of quotes. These old Geogs are easy to find at yard sales, flea markets and second-hand book stores. You just need the date.

Quote: While passing through the Panama Canal, a worker hailed: "Where's the mate?" Ross MacKay, our First Officer, waved. "Hey, Fletcher Christian!" shouted the man, "the British Gov't has been looking for you for 200 years."

"At noon I used to shoot the sun (getting directions on your compass) under the critical eye of First Mate, Ross MacKay, a black-mustached young man of quick, positive movements, who lived navigation."

"On November 20 we crossed the Equator at long. 102 deg. 50.0' W. Neptune, (Mr. MacKay) came aboard over the port bow, with a tow beard streaming in the wind and a salt mackerel impaled on his trident. He sat on a throne on the midships hatch, while 15 neophytes were lathered with a slimy mixture concocted by the cook and surgeon, and then shaved with a big cardboard razor. Finally, they were made to crawl through a tube-shaped canvas wind-sail while being helped along by the iron-hard jet of a high pressure salt-water hose.

Ginny,

As far as events in Tahiti that might have been a cause for the Mutiny:

I hate to say it, but the availability of females and the good life that the sailors were leading as opposed to the life they would normally lead in the Navy. Some of the men obviously simply didn't want to give that up.

Of course, after they mutinied and returned to Tahiti they realized that it would be impossible to stay there so they dropped off those who wanted to stay in Tahiti and take their chances when the Royal Navy showed up; gathered up some females and a few Native men and ran.

Not unusual for men who weren't particuarly well educated or bright to think with their emotions rather than their heads.

As far as I am concerned, Norduff and Hall are suspect. They were two young men who after WW I. approached a publisher and offered to write a book about a little known incident in the Royakl Navy in return for an advance. They journyed to Tahiti, spent two years there and came back with their book. Since they had received an advance and didn't want to and probably couldn't pay it back, they wrote a real meat and potatoes novel rather than one about what really happened. Of course, one book lead to another, which brought them more money (having a movie made of the first novel didn't hurt.)

I do not believe that historical accuracy was very important to them as few people would know the real facts or would be interested in finding out about them.

Tiger Tom

Since I wrote the heading questions I will defer for response from others, particularly you out there who have not been active in our posts. Most of these are opinion questions. I for on would appreciate your thoughts

In regard to Ginny’s comment in the previous post concerning the character of Captain Bligh, I think we have now been associated with him long enough to formulate opinions of his character. I am inclined to agree with Ginny’s assessment. I too have come to admire this man for the same reasons noted by Ginny, but I recognize how much he was the product of this time and how much the times have changed over two centuries. A Bligh suddenly transposed to the 21th century RN would not measure up as a leader despite his high character and great technical skill. Military command, particularly command of ships at sea, requires a combination of many factors including technical skill, discipline, and the ability to inspire and motivate subordinates. I think of the latter factor as the application of “political” skills in an area otherwise quite dissimilar to politics. It is here where Bligh and most, perhaps all, of his 18th century contemporaries were lacking.

Bligh Too

Being a latecomer to the discussion, and little more than 2 video viewed, reading posts (the most helpful) and daydreaming about being on the Bounty, I think I've decided that Bligh did his level best to accomplish his mission. The delay probably added fuel to the fires of a budding mutiny.

Christian was maybe a little ahead of his time (sympathetically) and was well meaning, although maybe foolhardy, given what would undoubtedly catch up to him, and I think he really knew that but perhaps was willing to risk it for a woman. After all, he really didin't have to escape great torture, as did the others. He really had mercy on them but I think his comforts were half the reason.

Well, I finally got here, SIR CAPTAIN, and am asking permission to come aboard.

Some quick thoughts, more to come: I've seen the videos Bligh of the Bounty, generously lent to me by Ginny, and I've just finished re-reading the Trilogy...will get the Kennedy book out of my local library next week.

Two quick non-in-depth comments: Someone remarked, way back, about "Now Hear This" as the command to pay attention to an annoucement. I never hear that without thinking about my aunt who was returning from three-year's imprisonment in Manila during WWII...she was coming home on a military transport ship while the war was still on, early 1945. Every time she heard, "Now Hear This," she thought they were saying "Now here it is" and she put on her life preserver.

Re the Horn: Here among old California families we talk about coming around the Horn. You're an old California family if an ancestor came "around the Horn" before the Gold Rush. I'm lucky enough to have a beautiful walnut dresser that came "around the Horn" with one ancestor.

At this point, I'm not a Christian admirer...but that's not a final conclusion by any means.

FranMMM

Francisca, welcome back We have missed you. Please do inject your comment into the discussion based on your reading of the trilogy. etc whenever you want.

Here are my thoughts on the first heading question regarding the contrast between the everyday life of the average Tahitian and Englander. So far as economics were concern if there ever was an example of a culture in which the great masses of the people could provide for their everyday needs with just a few hours of labor a day, I think 18th century Tahiti was it. The land seems to have been blessed with a great variety of fruits and vegetables easily available for the picking, and from the sea came a wide assortment of fish and shell fish not too much more difficult to maintain. In marked contrast in England survival was for most a dawn to dusk task often requiring the full time attention of the entire family,

When we compare the overall social structure including politics, religion and organized society in general of the Pacific island with that of Europe, I think the issue becomes more difficult to call. First the Tahitian attitude toward sex was extraordinarily open and free. Needless to say this is what impressed the sailors and what still gets the attention of modern observers. Back home in England while promiscuity was not uncommon, it was not condoned and was certainly not as open as at Tahiti.

Regarding politics and social organization, Tahiti was certainly no popular democracy. It had a well established political hierarchy led by hereditary chiefs and an established well organized religion under priests. We in our reading get some hints as to the power of the chiefs when we read how on a simple signal from the chief a great mass of native visitors swarming an English ship dove in to the sea. Also we have read of incidents of human sacrifice and the imposition of taboos by the priests. In contrast while 18th century England was no democracy in the modern sense, for over a century the powers of its king were limited by an unwritten constitution that made him subject to the elected Parliament. There was a right of trial by jury and an organized judicial system. Also a century had lapsed since the last heretic had burned.

I really think that the 5 months of apparent paradise spent at Tahiti was a significant factor leading to the mutiny. It was a sailors dream, willing women, plenty of good food and little work. Alas. The Bounty sailed to return to England, an event most had to look upon as the permanent loss of paradise.

I don't see how the time in Tahiti could have failed to have had an effect that played a big part in making the mutiny supportable (I still think it was mainly Christian, but more later on that). Even Nordhoff and Hall mentioned that most of the seamen had little reason to return to England; there they faced harsh living if they returned to sea and little employment if they didn't. So while they apparently didn't have much time to make their decision whether or not to follow Christian, I think Tahitian life had an influence. Besides, in those few minutes or so they had to decide, they probably thought (if they thought at all) that they'd be going back to Tahiti.

The last heading question ask, Was Tahiti changed by the 5 month Bounty visit? I think most of us would intuitively quickly answer in the affirmative>

Of course the Bounty was not the first European ship to visit the island, but it was not too far behind probably the 3rd or 4th. Many ships followed first English then others, particularly the French who established themselves as colonial overlords finally disposing of the native Polynesian monarch in the 1890’s after the last king died. It was at that time when the French expressionist painter, Paul Gaugain arrived on a Government sponsored visit. The French governor assigned him the task of artistically arranging the King’s funeral ceremony. Gauguin declined to make changes in the setting the Queen had already planned, saying that the native sense of the artistic could not be improved upon. . The French buried the body of the king clad in a French Admirals uniform. Obviously by this time, 100 plus years after the Bounty, the Island was no longer the pristine place it had once been. The Bounty certainly contributed to the change.

Paul Gauguin wrote a short prose account of his life in French Polynesia, dying there of syphilis in 1900. This title , Noa Noa, is available from B & N today. Ir describes the 1890’s Tahitian culture. Though the Tahitians are still pictured as being a very open society, the reader will have no trouble noting the great change from the pre-European beginning.

Later to-day or tomorrow I will post a short biographical sketch written by our participant Prancer describing the life of her cousin, Ross MacKay who captained the 1962 Bounty replica used in the Marlon Brando movie. Men do still go down to the sea in ships and Ross MacKay true to his Nova Scotia seafaring tradition must certainly be judged a worthy successor to the men who sailed the Bounty two century before his time. .

Harold,

I wonder how Tahiti could NOT be changed by the visit of Europeans.

The Europeans arrived in Sailings ship that were larger that the outriggers that the Polynesians sailed the Pacific in; they had Weapons and Tools made of Iron and Steel; They dressed differently, ate different foods, and spoke a different language.<P.

Of all these things I am sure that the Weapons and tools had the most affect on the Natives. Those things were very useful and desirable because of it. The food, dress and speech were interesting but of little use to the Natives.

I imagine that if some E.T's landed on Earth the effect would be terrific. It would change us completely and forever. So, too with the Natives of Tahiti.

Had the Bounty been the ONLY Eureopean ship to call it and the Europeans would have been for the most part forgotten and been blended in to the Folk Lore of the Native people. It wasn't, unfortunately for the Tahitians.

As always, the Missionaries soon followed and the Island Paradise really changed for good.

Yes, the Bounty visit changed the people and ultimately Tahiti.

Tiger Tom

Incidentally the Noa Noa title is in the B & N catalog (see link in my last message) sells for only $5.95. The catalog says 92 pages, but the text is quite short and should not run more than 50 pages. The rest probably is Gauguin pictures. That is bargain reading for very few pesos.

I am posting here the first part of a biographical sketch of the most recent reincarnation of our Captain Bligh. It tells us something of the life of the man who captained the most recent (1962) Bounty replica. He was Ross MacKay, the cousin of our participant Prancer. This short sketch was prepared from material furnished by Prancer and the family. It tells of Ross sailing the Bounty to Tahiti for the filming of the 1962 Marlon Brando movie and later the sailing the replica to various ports to promote the picture. Finally, following the tradition set by a number of the members of the original Bounty’s crew, Ross is lost at sea with he own sailing craft.

The sketch includes a picture of Ross’s boat. While it is SN’s strictly enforced policy not to permit graphics in the text of discussions, we have received permission to post this as an enhancement of the subject matter under consideration. If you have any similar pictures or graphic illustrations relative to the Bounty that you would like to contribute, please email them to me at hhullar5@texas.net and I will see if we can arrange to post them.

I understand that a second part of this story is being prepared and will follow. Here is Part I.

My Cousin,  the Seafarer

by Elizabeth R. Imlay

We are delighted to have among our readers of the Mutiny on the Bounty books Elsie (Prancer), whose cousin Ross MacKay sailed the replica of the HMS Bounty which was built for the movie Mutiny on the Bounty starring Marlon Brando. Ross's life was every bit as exciting as some of the personages we've read about. He was mentioned several times in National Geographic Magazine of April, 1962, and tragically was lost at sea. We are indebted to Elsie and her sister Elizabeth Imlay for their assistance in telling his story:

William Ross MacKay was born on 5th February, 1932, on a cold winter's day in a country home at Caribou, Pictou County, Nova Scotia. He was premature, weighing about 2 1/2 lbs. and his grandmother wrapped him closely in a wool blanket, carrying him across the ice of Pictou Harbour to her home. His mother was in need of care for herself. He started out his tiny life moving over salt water.

Ross grew up beside the Northumberland Strait. He was greatly influenced by an uncle, who had spent many years at sea, so before finishing school he was already at sea, working on Imperial Oil tankers as a messman. His uncle encouraged him to study, and by the age of 28 he had received his Captain's papers.

During all these years of travel I received postcards from The World - Scotland, Cape Horn, The Marianas, The Great Barrier Reef, Gold Coast - and wonderful descriptive letters. Unfortunately, having done much moving myself, all those items are lost now.

Ross also worked on cruise ships and with the National Hydrographic Service. In 1960 The Bounty was being built. Ross had much experience on sailing ships and when the search for a First Mate was undertaken, he was recommended. It was off to Tahiti for a glorious adventure, followed up as Captain of The Bounty on the movie's promotional tours.

Eventually Ross came back to Nova Scotia and was employed at the Gulf Oil Refinery at Point Tupper, as a pilot, docking large oil tankers. It was at this site that he was severely burned in a fire at the refinery. Following many months of recuperation he retired. Ross retired at his cottage on the shores of Northumberland Strait. He was never off the water. In 1977, he and a friend bought a Cape Islander fishing boat. However, he loved sailing ships, so he began to build his own. The Saga was afloat in 1988.

On July 2, 1990, Ross and his 24-year-old son, John, left Pictou Harbour on The Saga, bound for Port Hawkesbury. John was never seen again and Ross's body was found on the beach near Antigonish on July 18, 1990. No one knows the exact date of their deaths. No one knows the exact cause. There were many speculations and much investigation. No trace of The Saga was ever found. Ross's Newfoundland dog, Mariner, was found on the beach near Pictou.

This is my theory: Several times Ross told me that the biggest thing he feared when sailing in a small boat was being run over by a container ship. He said that, especially at night time, container ships could not see small boats and they are so big that an impact with one would not even be felt. The Georges Bay area where he planned to travel is a major container route. Ross was survived by two other sons, a granddaughter, his mother, four brothers and two sisters.

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Everyone

I must thank everyone involved with the presentation of Ross MacKay's story. It is looking wonderful. His youngest son, William, is now in touch with me and is very happy to know that we are doing this. It will be very interesting to see what comes next. I'm thrilled.

Here is the second section of the Ross MacKay sketch. Thank you Prancer for sharing this story with us. And thanks also to Pat Westerdale for the HTML programming and to Ginny for her efforts to obtain authorization for posting the pictures.

Ross MacKay

Pictures and Commentary by Prancer

Ross and Mariner	At one time Brenda (Ross' cousin) didn't have anywhere to leave her dog Amy (A Newfoundland Dog), and Ross said he would take her for a while. He fell in love with her and got one of his own, a male, Mariner. Mariner would have saved Ross if at all possible, he was that kind of dog.
1961 and Ross had just come back from Tahiti. The film was made in '60 - '61. He had a grass skirt and other things, leis, etc. I put them on and have movies of that. Ross was chosen for First Mate on the Bounty out of Lunenburg. That was Marlon Brando's position in the film. In the movie, when the ship is at sea and needs real crew to operate her, it is Ross you see in 1st Mate position, but only at a distance, so that it appears to be Marlon. After the movie was made the ship went on a promotional tour of US and southern countries. At that time, Ross was Captain.	Ross and his 'Wahini' on a scooter in Tahiti.
Ross was burned when we were living on Bay Road Armdale, in 1971-72 (I think it was '72) Doris stayed with us while he was in the hospital and I went in to see him as much as we were allowed, but it was very bad and they were concerned about infection. He was employed at Gulf Oil Refinery in Port Hawkesbury. There was a big explosion and fire. He tried to help someone out. Was at the back and had to roll under some pipes. The other guy died. He always had some muscle damage after that and lots of scars.
	This is the last picture of Ross. It was taken on July 7, 1990. He was on a Parade in Pictou, Hector Days or Gaelic Mod or whatever they call their celebration. He is wearing medals and decorations he received when he was in Viet Nam during the War. He was operating a dredge to keep the river open for warships.
Two days after this picture was taken, he and John boarded the Saga at Pictou Harbour for their final voyage. Only the Bounty was used in the film, unless it had it's own rowboats. Saga was Ross's own boat and wasn't built until about 1988. That is the time I told you about when they were lost at sea around Cape Breton, N.S.
	It's a little interesting that they put his last name "MacKay" on his headstone in Gaelic!
This item from a newspaper dated 28 July, 1990. FAMILY IDENTIFIES CARIBOU RIVER DROWNING VICTIM Antigonish - Family members have identified a body found in the Northumberland Strait as that of Captain William Ross MacKay, 58, Caribou River, Pictou County. The body was found eight days ago by fishermen 10 kilometres north of Tracadie. Still missing is Captain MacKay's 24 year old son, John Duncan MacKay. The two sailed July 9th from Pictou Harbour aboard a schooner built some years ago by Captain MacKay. Family members said Friday they believe the pair were heading for the Bras D'Or Lakes when they sailed out of Pictou Harbour. An Antigonish RCMP spokesman said tests continue to be carried out to make identification certain. Because the body was in the water for a long time, identification is difficult, the spokesman said.
Ross was mentioned in the National Geographic Magazine of 1962: Here are some excerpts: While passing through the Panama Canal, a worker hailed: "Where's the mate?" Ross MacKay, our First Officer, waved. "Hey, Fletcher Christian!" shouted the man, "the British Gov't has been looking for you for 200 years." "At noon I used to shoot the sun (getting directions on your compass) under the critical eye of First Mate, Ross MacKay, a black-mustached young man of quick, positive movements, who lived navigation." "On November 20 we crossed the Equator at long. 102 deg. 50.0' W. Neptune, (Mr. MacKay) came aboard over the port bow, with a tow beard streaming in the wind and a salt mackerel impaled on his trident. He sat on a throne on the midships hatch, while 15 neophytes were lathered with a slimy mixture concocted by the cook and surgeon, and then shaved with a big cardboard razor. Finally, they were made to crawl through a tube-shaped canvas wind-sail while being helped along by the iron-hard jet of a high pressure salt-water hose.

Harold, Pat, Ginny

This is so great. For anyone who would like to make out Ross' name in the Gaelic spelling it is "Cpt. Ross MacAdida MM", a little hard to make out from the small picture I had.

Smiles!

We will linger a bit longer with the Bounty at Tahiti to allow some comment on the several key occurrences concerning the work and the evolving state-of-mind of the ship’s company during the five months in port at Tahiti. I suppose Tiger Tom or I could post a summary of occurrences, but HOPEULLY, we can have some response from participants (Francisca, Betty, Zwyram, Alf, etc) leading to discussion of happenings while at Tahiti that contributed to the mutiny. Some of these seem centered on a rather loose relaxation of discipline by Bligh. Did these lead to a “whose afraid of the big, bad Captain Bligh” attitude by some of the crew? Other events seem more serious reaching the status of a direct challenge to Bligh to which Bligh reacted with an apparent strong response. Was his response too late; was it strong enough?

It is time to get this discussion moving. It is time for all to be involved!

Sorry for my off and on participation. I've been juggling some unexpected personal responsibilities with my interests here.

I'll admit being baffled with the Tahiti period. Even considering the various authors' slants of this period of much reduced discipline, there is nothing definite to identify as THE trouble or even much evidence of an escalation of trouble.....or am I wrong about that? Having said that, however, I guess we can still conclude that Bligh did not transfer his "tight ship" administration that well, OR AT ALL, to land. (Many RN captains/commanders of the era were famous for not doing well on land....financial and domestic troubles were common) Or, maybe it is more accurate to say that Bligh let the island's culture dominate or replace the military culture. How that involved Christian specifically isn't clear.

I'll also say that, even though this chronological method of looking at things is fine with me and makes sense, I still look forward to and am relying on the END of Bligh's life and the continuous and telling trouble he kept getting in to, to complete a whole picture of the man. His trouble with Christian is then easier to imagine.

Betty

Tahiti

Is there any evidence that Bligh may not have had the same jurisdiction on the island that he had on the ship? There was a Chief and Bligh was placating him more than anything. Just a thought that it could have been a weak spot.

Betty,

Bligh DID try to maintain some discipline: he sent parties of men back on board the Bounty to scour the deck's; repair what was needed; replace and repair the lines (ropes), etc. He rotated this duty among the crew and Officers.

Apparently, Christian wasn't too fond of this duty and was slack. Bligh got on him because Chrsitian allowed some things to go to pot that he was supposed have attended to and didn't.

Bligh was more than the ship's Captain: He was also a diplomat, representative of his King and Government; and law giver to his crew. He had a lot of responsibility. He needed reliable Officers to assist him in many of these things. If he allowed the Officers to slack their duty it would affect his discipline of the men.

Tahiti was a paradise in many ways and the crew of the Bounty were finding out the many joys of that paradise and taking to them whole heartedly.

Contrast fresh fruit, vegatables, Meat, water; Ready, willing, and available female companionship. to life on a ship: at best bad food and water, harsh discipline, dangerous duty (climbing the rigging in bad weather;) living in wretched conditions, wet most of the time; Nothing but men around for months at a time.

Given the choice of leaving one to go back to the other: many of the men would take their chances and mutiny rather than go back.

Had Bligh the Marines he could have followed standard practice of the day of NOT allowing the men off the ship and having two (2) boatloads of Marines rowing around the ship 24 hours a day with the threat that if anyone managed to get off the ship one of the Marines would take his place.

Yes, the sojourn in Tahiti had a great deal to do with the Mutiny. I think all that was needed was a leader and Christian provided that.

I frankly believe that there was little or no animosity toward Bligh, he could have been killed outright when the ship was taken over. He could have been put in the boat alone with nothing at all. Instead he wasn't harmed, he was put in a boat that was probably a little overloaded, given some equipment a cutlass (and I have read somewhere a Musket) and two pieces of equipment for navigation.

I still believe the men thought that Bligh would try to take the Launch back to Tahiti but being in a larger ship with sail the men who mutined intended to be there before him, would leave those who didn't want to be part of the mutiny, take Native women, some native men, and food and supplies and sail off to find a place to hide from the British Law.

Tiger Tom

I think Betty, your last paragraph suggesting we look to Blighs later troubled career for clues regarding blame for the Bounty mutiny raises a valid point. Now that you bring it up, I note that trouble with the handling of crews was not uncommon in the RN during the period. My 20th century reprint of the Barrow’s 19th century study of the mutiny from Admiralty records includes a brief summary of the careers of the officers of the Court Martial trying the mutineers. The Editor added this summary. It is surprising how many of these captains and admirals were involved with mutinies at some point in their career. I plan to post more details on this during our conclusion. For now suffice it to say, somehow I find it difficult to maintain Bligh is entirely blameless. Something was wrong with his leadership, but I am inclined to conclude that the flaw was endemic to the entire fleet, not just Bligh. Something was wrong with the leadership of the entire RN and perhaps the defect was general in 18th century society not just the navy and military, and not just confined to Europe?

I don’t think there is much doubt that Bligh did let Island culture pretty much dominate his crew during the Tahiti interlude. In fact this may have been a major factor leading to the later trouble. As Tiger Tom has pointed out, perhaps he did not have too much choice. The word during this period required large shore details. If he had marines he could have had them ashore to keep better order. (as the US Mavy did when I was stationed at Utlithi and Guam in 1945. Marine patrols pretty much kept us swabies confined to base areas, i.e. locked-up.)

But here is a question not to clear to me, did Bligh let island culture dominate his own life while there? While Christian, the midshipmen, the ratings and the crew were living it up, as sailors were prone to do, where was Bligh? I don’t see much evidence that Bligh was participating in the party. I think Hough makes this point in the very end of his book pointing to a suppressed envy of Christian happy existence on shore as a cause of finding fault after the departure.

Prancer, I don’t think it was a matter of Bligh not having jurisdiction of his men on shore assignment. As captain Bligh certainly had authority over his men so far as the articles of war were concerned.

Tiger Tom, I do not recall having read in my sources concerning the reason Blith did not return in the launch to Tahiti. Has this possibility been discussed by the sources? It would seem to have been closer than Timor. Maybe Bligh expected Christian would return there and would kill them. Also of course Bligh knew that passage back to Europe would be available at Timor and from Tahiti it might be many years before another European ship might call.

Harold,

I have often wondered why Bligh did not return to Tahiti.

He could have reasonably expected Christian and the Bounty to be gone. He could have also reasonably expected that the Chief would have protected him from Christian and the Mutineers. Bligh would have been smart enough to not announce his arrival in Tahiti but would have contacted the Chief and convinced him that it would be in his best interest to be on his (bligh's side)

True, it would have been some time before a European or British ship came calling. But it would have been certain that a ship would have been sent out by the Admiralty to see what happened to the Bounty.

Waiting for rescue in Tahiti would have, to my mind, been a whole lot less risky and more comfortable than a journey across thousands of miles of ocean in an open Launch with very little in the way of equipment and less in food, especially in an overcrowded boat.

I still believe that Bligh didn't have that much to fear from the Mutineer's or Christian. That the Mutineers didn't want to leave their Island paradise is evident. But I have never got the feeling that their was any hatred on their part toward Bligh. The only thing they seemed to have against him was that he stood in the way of their going back to Tahiti and he represented the Royal navy.

I also believe that Bligh was devoted to his wife, and probably was a Moral man. He may not have been able to partake of the pleasures of the Flesh as the other Men could. Also by not doing so, he took the moral high ground and this may have given him some leverage in his commanding of the men. It certainly would have given them an idea of his Will. Hard to go up against a man who is tough enough to stay true to his wife in circumstances like that.

Bligh did as best as he could given the circumstances he had to operate in: He had NO Marines to help him enforce discipline and to keep order and the peace. He was undermanned, did not have Regular Officers under him. Was bascialy alone at the top. He had more that just the Ship and Crew to worry about. He had to be Diplomatic but at the same time had to push to get the Breadfruit ready to load without getting the Chief or the Natives mad. He had to keep the stealing down and to see that punishment was meted out to those who did steal. I think that a lesser man than bligh would have folded under all of that.

Tiger Tom

Probably the reason that Bligh didn't return to Tahiti in the small boat is that to do so he would have had to sail upwind. Remember that the Bounty's course to Tahiti was to sail west at a higher latitude where the winds blew west to east and the turning north. The Plots that I have seen in various books show the Bounty's course from the time of the mutinty to be first south, then east, then north. I think that the only reasonable course for Bligh to sail in a small boat with the rig he had was due west.

There is no doubt in my mind that the extented stay in Tahiti was one of the causes of the mutiny. For Christian to go from the arms of his sweet young thing and the soft life he had been living for several months to a life under a verbally abusive captain had to be a shock. Bligh had a difficult situation to handle while the Bounty was in port in Tahiti. There wasn't enough work to keep the crew busy, life ashore was somewhere between good and fantastic, and discipline of the non-commisioned officers had already shown itself to be almost nonexistant except for Bligh's threats and cursing. It was a disaster waiting to happen.

Bligh's record for mutinies after the Bounty was about par for the course. In the "great mutiny" ship was about average. The mutiny in Austrailia would have happened to anyone who tried to clean out the nest of thieves that Bligh walked into.

There is plenty of blame to spread around as to who and what caused the mutiny on the Bounty. No one from the admiralty on down comes off with clean hands, but Fletcher Christian was the one who committed the mutiny.

It is mentioned here that Otoo, Paramount Chief and wife Iddeah paid a visit on board and came to agreeable terms about the purchase of the breadfruit. The problem of time was discussed and thought was given to setting up a shore station to superintend the packing and the potting.

"Christian, who had eyes for nothing but half naked wenches in the canoes, volunteered- a little too eagerly- for the honor of occupying that position. I didn't propose to deny myself the pleasure of his company at my table for 3 months," said Bligh.

Point Venus was the name given by Cook to the postion of which the camp was established. It could hardly have been baptised more appropriately.

The conduct of the men and the handling of their liberty ashore was a topic at their dinner table the night they sighted Otaheite. The Capt was asked, by Christian, how he intended to control the men when they anchored and collected the plants?

"These are a different people, Christian. They have few inhibitions and unmarried women copulate freely with whomsoever they fancy. What we must do is ensure that no troubles are aroused with them that may prejudice our success."

Heyward, the still-virgin, blushed at this and his hopes of a sensuous night was halted. "I will expect the officers to set an example" said Bligh. He wanted every memeber of the crew inspected for VD and if found positive would be confined to the ship.

When they went to the island they were fed and offered "towtows." The yava root is chewed by the towtows to the semblance of a cud, and the juices spat into a gourd & mixed with coco-nut milk and each man taking his shell solemnly pronounced "YOW", a matter of "passing the jug" and laughter reigned. Bligh said the concoction was pungent, astringent and in Heywards case- an emetic. It immediately deadend the tongue and cheeks. They were then treated to a dancing "heiva." This is a lewd performance to the throbbing of wooden drums as the couples perform wanton gestures, to the satisfaction of the on-lookers. This lasted for a half hour and communicated a certain course of action to the ring of spectators.

I am sorry that I do not know what you would like me to bring to this discussion as I am delinquent in all of my postings. I thought Blighs account was quite interesting. I am in awe of each and everyone of the posts. I have spent the better part of today reviewing what you have each accomplished.

Alf,

A BIG Western Howdy. glad you could join us in our discussions.

Very interesting what you posted.

Again, Alf's post points up one of Bligh's biggest problems. He didn't have the means to keep the seamen on Board ship so he had to allow them shore duty, and being on shore meant that they were going to have an awful lot of temptation thrown at them. After month's at Sea, they wouldn't be in much shape to resist that temptation even if they were a mind to.

Bligh was right in having the men inspected to avoid one or more of them infecting the Native women with a "Social Disease" which would be quickly spread through the whole tribe. This of course would be blamed on the Bounty crew and could have caused the whole mission to fail.

The description of towtow's is great.

Keep them coming ALF.

Tiger Tom

Ginny, thank you for your excellent outline of Captain Bligh’s activities while the Bounty was in port at Tahiti. I think the significant point to be gained from your summary is that Bligh was busily engaged in the conduct of the King’s business. There is little if any evidence that Bligh was himself participating, as were his subordinates, in the pleasures of south sea island living. This is the point Hough saved until his very last chapter citing Blighs frustration over Christian’s happy arrangements ashore in contrast to his own “stick to business” routine. This frustration was taken out on Christian (and others) with expressions of dissatisfaction with work and resulting disciplinary measures. In Christians case the results were manifest after the Bounty sailed, first as melancholy and depression and finally 3 weeks later a planned desertion at sea from the ship and finally when the opportunity came leader of the mutiny.

Captain Bligh’s stick to business attitude denying to himself active fraternization with native culture while the crew was not denied the opportunity seems to have been followed some 15 years later some 5000 miles to the northeast by the leaders of another expedition resulting in a European/Native cultural contact. Here again Captains Lewis and Clark seemed to have unconsciously followed the Bligh example keeping to their nation’s business while their men reacted in much the same manner with much the same absence of interference from their officers as the Bounty sailors.

Alf, thank you for your quotes from “The Last Mutiny” by Bill Collett. Your quote indicates Bligh expected that the men would become a part of the native culture (he knew his sailors). Your quote tells us that Bligh and Christian had discussed the subject of discipline of personnel working ashore. From the apparent Bligh answer to the Christian question that you quoted, Bligh seems to have expected the officers to lead by example and to be very actively engaged in the prevention of any excesses that would endanger the completion of the mission. Bligh did not expect there would be no fraternization between his men and the natives though he seems to have expected that his officers would not participate. All he expected was the prevention of an incident that would have jeopardized the gathering and nursing of the breadfruit plants. In this he was successful.

Of course what Bligh did not expect was that his junior officers and midshipmen would so enthusiastically join in the party. In Bligh’s eye Christian in particular was most certainly a miserable failure. Had not Bligh promoted Christian and allowed him privileges beyond his actual rank? This lead to him singling Christian out for work failure and discipline leading to the conclusion outlined in my last message.

And Tiger Tom, I would add that the nature of the mission required that Bligh keep a work detail on shore to supervise the gathering and nurturing of the breadfruit trees. From Houghs description the nursery operation was quite a large one and was certainly critical to the successful completion to the Bounty’s mission. Also other personnel were stationed on shore to supervise trading and other English contacts with the natives.

On the question of VD, do you suppose it was already well established in Tahiti when the Bounty got there? The Bounty must have been the 4th or 5th European visitor. I would have no faith in a diagnosis by the good Dr Huggan or any other 18th century RN surgeon certifying anyone fee of disease. I doubt they could really cure any of it, just render it less active and less likely to be transmitted. Syphilis of course by its nature disappeared in its primary form to enter later phases when it would become a killer many years after the initial contact. I think this view pretty well reflects the opinion expressed by our late Seniors Net Books leader, Dr L. J. Klien. I asked this question in connection with one of the late 90’s Indian discussions. I looked for it in the achieves but could not find it.

Harold,

Certainly, While bligh was there to obtain Breadfuit seedlings he was Also the King's representative. He had to make a good impression, on the ruling chiefs, of the British King and Of Britishers in general. This was with an eye to the future. Tahiti could have become a British colony had not the French been a little faster on their feet.

As Ginny has shown, Bligh was busy, busy, involved in a lot of things. Being a Captain of the ship was just one of them. He had to rely on his "Officers." Chrsitian failed him more that once. Frankly Christian should not have been promoted. That was a mistake that Bligh made based on friendship and family friendship. Bligh paid for it too.

It is hard to say if the Tahitians were already infected with with a social disease. At least bligh seemed to believe that they weren't. He is to be commended for trying to ensure that his men didn't infect the Women. give him at least an A for effort.

Yes the nature of the mission required that Bligh have a work detail on shore during the day. That does Not mean that one or more of the Officers could not have been detailed to watch them and then in the evening the men would be put back on Board the Bounty. Had Bligh the Marine Contingent that he should have then he could and would have had control over the activities of the men. He also could have kept the Officer's more in line.

Bligh as the Commander of the mission was not in a happy position. He had to make sure the work was done; had to jolly the Native Chiefs; Had to try keeping the stealing down; Had to try to provide an example to his crew. Chrisitian, on the other hand, had none of these responsibilities. He was hughly enjoying life and was letting down Bligh constantly providing the men with an example they could have done without.

Personally, I feel that Bligh's only contribution to the Mutiny was his promotion of Christian and his failure to put Christian in his place. Had I been Bligh, I would have confined Christian to the ship.

Tiger Tom

I have just come to realize that the Bill Collett, “The Last Mutiny” title, is a fiction book. I did not recognize this the other day when I read Alf's post. Here is a link to the B & N catalog , The Last Mutiny by Bill Collettt. Note that the last sentence of the “From The Publisher” paragraph expressly identifies this book as a fictional account.

From the examples quoted in message 395, I might judge that this fiction author might have given a pretty accurate account of Bligh’s intent and the Bounty crew’s interface with the natives over the five months spent gathering and nursing the breadfruit plants. From the primary history sources available, the logs and post event writings of the principals, by “reading between the lines” I had formulated the belief that Bligh had never intended to prohibit his personnel from fraternizing with the natives. The quotes given seem to express this same conclusion by this author.

Alf, you may be the only participant reading the Collett book. Perhaps you might in the future post other comparisons between the fictional account in the Collett book and the history given by other posts. Please do so!

Betty,

"It is lonely at the Top"

That is the hallmark of a leader the ability to stand the lonliness of being in command of not being able to walk away from responsibility and just enjoy what is around and offered.

Command is very tough if done right. Damned if you do and damned if you don't Not going to satisfy most or make most of them happy. However a good commander will accomplish what he has been ordered to do and bring the men under him home. Bligh would have done that given the chance.

Christian would not have made a good commander. He was too immature and ruled by his passions.

I keep trying to emphasize the Bligh was commander of a Naval ship under Royal Navy Regulations. Thousands of miles from country and home. He was the Law for the ship and the men, all of them. His only protection was the law of the Sea and the Royal Navy Regulations.

The Admiralty and the Naval Regulations backed up a commander to the hilt. There was no other choice. If this wasn't done, anarchy. Mutiny and murder of officers would have been common.

Out on the ocean far away from home, there is only one law and one thing to keep order and discipline, the commander. You cannot have everyone picking and chosing what they will do or what they will obey. In the days of Sail justice was swift and harsh. There was no second option. Sometimes the Justice was too harsh and unfair. Sometimes, as is the case with Bligh, Justice was a little too lax. Bligh was a man ahead of his time. In the modern age he would be an excellent commander.

Tiger Tom

Yes, the Collett book is fiction and strangely enough it follows closely with the trilogy. This book starts AFTER the mutiny as he nears old age and recalls his sea-faring days. Bligh had discussed his daughter Anne's epilepsy with Christian.

Christian surprised me by his knowledge and concern. Napleon Bonaparte was reported to be dependant on Neufchatel powder to control his sizures. He must nave needed a bucketful after watching Nelson annihilate his fleet, burning it before his very eyes at the Nile. I asked Christian if he knew where this famous remedy might be obtainable.

Bligh goes on to detail his own physical ailments in depth. I found this page quite interesting.

I Wm. Bligh, no stranger to valour, though I admit it myself, valour proved in the engagements at Camperdown and Copenhagen, I was on trial for calling the ship's Master a damned scoundrel! This ina navy were men could be and were flogged until they crippled. Cook the venerated martyred Cook, he flogged his way around the world to the manifest satisfaction and admiration of all Christendom, but I was court-martialed for calling a blackguard a blackguard!

Betty that is an interesting analogy you make comparing the characters Bligh and Christian to the characters in the sit com, Randall and Klugman. Bligh was certainly a Randall so far as his charts and navigation and the way he ran his ship was concerne. Christian, while certainly no Randall, for me is a bit harder to equate to Klugman.

Tiger Tom I am in full agreement that Christian would NOT have been a successful RN Captain in the 18th or today. I am inclined to agree also that Bligh might be considered a good and successful Captain. He was cited by Nelson to that effect for command during at least one major Battle and perhaps also in a second one. I keep having trouble thinking of him as a great captain because I keep judging him by today’s standards. He and for that matter other 18th century commanders would of course require considerable re-orientation to successfully command a RN ship today.

Judging an 18th century captain by today’s standards is an obvious mistake because of the great fundamental changes in command methods and basic philosophy.

Alf, what was the date of publication of the "Last Mutiny" title. I think it was quite a bit after the trilogy? Is this correct? Do keep us posted on how this novel treats the major events! You and/or others reading the trilogy might also do the same with respect to the Nordhoff and Hall Account. I read the trilogy years ago, but have not reread it for this occasion.

There were a number of indications appearing during the months the Bounty was at Tahiti that suggested a growing unrest among the crew. Hough notes that the frequency of floggings began to increase in the weeks after the Bounty arrived. These were typically a dozen lashes for a variety of offenses such as insolence, disobedience of an order, and neglect of duty. The most serious offense came in early December when Chruchill, Muspratt, and Millward deserting during the mid watch taking the small launch and an arms chest with quite an arsenal. Obvious they had decided they were not returning to England. They planned to hole-up on one of the outer islands until the Bounty sailed. Bligh was furious and had Peter Heywood clamped in irons since he was the Officer on Watch when the desertion occurred.

The launch was recovered and returned by the natives after the deserters abandoned it for a native canoe. Bligh called on the native chief, Tynah, to apprehend them but the effort was delayed by storms and bad weather. It was more than a month and a half before the three were arrested, after they had returned to the main island. The natives as Bligh had hoped aided in the arrest. As I see the deserters had exhibited no originality in their plan and the only thing that prevented them from being apprehended sooner was the bad weather. As is typical of the great mass of the poor Europeans, they seem to have little talent for survival on their own in a primitive environment.

Bligh ordered a rather mild dozen lashes for Churchill and two-dozen for each of the other two and confinement in irons. He rebuked Heywood severely for sleeping on his watch and confined him in irons also. After about two weeks in irons the three were again given the same number of lashes. Apparently after the second flogging the men were returned to duty.

Hough brings up an interesting situation that if it had happened gives rise to speculation on an interesting historical if. Hough says that when the first flogging ceremony was in progress, a native, Wyetooa who was Heywood’s male tyo had stationed himself near Bligh with war club in hand determined to strike Bligh with a fatal blow should Bligh order that Heywood be Flogged. Well Bligh did not order Heywood Flogged and Wyetooa did not kill Bligh but how would this drama have played out if Bligh had been killed? Would Christian have taken command? Would he have completed the Mission? Somehow I am inclined to doubt it!

All hands, Hear this

This is the first mate.

Report to your stations. Repeat report in.

If not, some serious Plank Walking is going to take
Place.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom, Aye, Aye Sir!

I'm here. Sore ribs because I fell asleep reading Trilogy and slept on the closed book!

Maybe that will sort the story out a little more for me, huh.

One minute I want to tackle and strangle Bligh and the next I want to give Christain a tase of my paddle stick. More thinking required. Having a difficult time, being female, to really put myself in either of their shoes and feel a reaction..

Ginny,

I am with you. I suspect Hough very much. He seems to be obligated to ruin Bligh's reputation. It may be to put a little Red Meat in his book to increase sales or to go along with Norduff and Hall. It seems as some people writing about the Bounty Saga are hypnotized by what Norduff and Hall wrote. They seem to overlook the fact that the Norduff and Hall book was Fiction. A Potboiler designed to sell. They had, after all, accepted an advance and had spent it by the time they finished the book. Had not sales made up for the advance they would have had to pay back the difference. They had a good reason to play with Bligh's character and reputation. Hough, didn't.

Bligh must have had a will of iron to have impressed the Native Chiefs so much. He had to present a very strong, but benevolent, image to them. The More I read of this man the More I believe that I would have cheerfuly served under him. Also, given a while to adjust to the present day I think that he would make a very good Commander in today's navy. I have an Idea that Bull Halsey may have been cut out of the image of Bligh in a way and Chester Nimitz in another way. For sure Bligh would have stood out in the U.S. Navy in W.W. I.I.

Tiger Tom

Ginny

I'm six of one and half a dozen of the other on the Trilogy. . I must admit I don't get enough "lone" time to really stick with it. I waited a whole month to get it while the library searched for it and finally brought it in from Ottawa. I was surprised at that, however, someone else had it on load, I suppose. That's neither here nor there. I saw both the videos - (Laughton & Brando ) - the old one was the better I would say for facts. I am only maybe 150 pages into the Mutiny (beginning of book) so I can't decide yet what I think of the whole thing. I can't actually keep all that interested at his point. It doesn't spellbind me, as I would have expected. I keep on feeling that people never learned back then anymore than they do now. Flogging or whatever, they will fly in the face of authority, especially if they have some backing. It isn't easy at the top to keep control, alone. I'm still fence-sitting.

Hough sums up Bligh's responsibility for the discipline breakdown during the 5 months the Bounty was at Tahiti in the following paragraphs:

Bligh at Tahiti deputed responsibility to his officers and cursed then when he discovered they had failed him-as they did, time and again. But they were failing a commander who himself had failed in leadership when a leader's qualities are put to the severest test, when things seem to be going smoothly. A basic tenet of leadership which Bligh never learned is that you never delegate responsibility. You depute and supervise and it is your responsibility if your subordinates fail you.

......... Bligh quite failed to anticipate how his company would react to the severity and austerity of life at sea again after five dissolute, hedonistic months at Tahiti. His imagination failed him ...... . (Hough, page 118)

Hough thinks Bligh should have taken the Bounty to sea for short periods to chart the coast line and bays of Tahiti and other nearby islands. He would have left only the botanist specialists and a skeleton crew to nurture the breadfruit trees. Also his ratings could have been employed on shore charting the topography of the Island. In short he should have kept the men occupied with only short periodic liberty on shore. Hough maintains that this is what Captain Cook would have done and had Bligh followed such a plan keeping all hands fully occupied, discipline would not have crumbled as it did. Therefore Bigh should bear a share of the blame because his poor leadership contributed to the mutiny.

So Hough has charged Bligh with allowing the conditions that led to the collapse of discipline and eventually to mutiny, charges that were not heard at the proforma court martial that prematurely acquitted Bligh. Does Bligh have any one out there to defend him on this charge?

Harold,

Hough is full of it. I doubt if he has any idea of how to command or lead. He sounds like a Monday Morning Quarterback.

Why does he think that a commander has Subordinate officers? So he can delegate those chores that he feels can be handled by a junior officer. That isn't a failure of command it is what a commander should be doing. If, his junior officers fail him it puts a greater load on the commander. Had I been bligh I too would have blown up at Junior Officers who were more interested in the good life on shore than it doing their duty.

Bligh did try to keep the men busy. He assigned them to as much duty as he could.

As far as taking the ship out. That wouldn't be too bright. If something might have happend while on one of those jaunts his whole mission would have failed. Then too, Bligh could not be in two places at once. Often his presence on shore was critical. Christian probably would have had to commanded the Bounty on one or more of those charting trips. No telling what would have happened.

As far as his rating doing charting. They wouldn't have known the first thing about doing that. Their charting would have Been useless. Bligh, who was a top flight cartagrapher and chart maker took years to develop his skills and much study. The ratings were illiterate seamen. they couldn't even read or write.

Hough was just looking for things to get on Bligh about. He should have used his head before writing junk like that.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom, I think we will have to respectively disagree on the issue of Bligh’s complicity. While I would not exonerate Christian or the mutineers in any way, I maintain that Bligh cannot be held altogether blame less. As I have said before, “something was wrong with his leadership.” Hough, I think makes the good argument that I outlined in my last post. I do think Bligh by keeping his men fully occupied with only occasional liberty would have maintained the necessary discipline and control of his crew. I think that if a similar incident arose out of a modern setting in today’s U.S. Navy Bligh would have been court marshaled, found guilty, and given the usual career ending reprimand common today in such procedures. The fundamental principal that a commander is responsible for the acts and failure of subordinates has become well establish in U.S. military law. Cursing them for their shortcomings in front of the crew is no remedy.

In Bligh’s case he did not make a good choice in the appointment of subordinates who he chose from his circle of family and friends rather than ability. Note in contrast how Cook had chosen Bligh himself as master of his flagship. He did not know Bligh but Bligh got the appointment based on his reputation within the RN as a navigator and chartist. Cook it would seem was capable of looking beyond his immediate circle to find officers with ability for the job. Bligh it would appear was not!

Again this does not exonerate Christian and the mutineers and indeed there is blame to be found in the Admiralty itself in their failure to provide marines and in delaying the Bounty’s sailing date until it was too late to pass Cape Horn. Nonetheless Bligh cannot be held blameless of complicity in the collapse of discipline of the Bounty’s crew while at Tahiti

Ginny, you are right in questioning Hough's source for Wyetooa story concerning his possible intent to kill Bligh. The Hough book is what I describe as a popular history book. That is he cites a list of sources in his bibliography, but he does not cite by foot notes his source for specific items as a more professional academic history would. I too am suspicious of this particular story. The Wyetooa plot incident appears on page 125 of the Hough text, I suppose since Wyetooa was Peter Heywood's servant and since Heywood was a survivor, he could have left some mention of the incident. Hough does include in his Bibliography a few 18th a,d early century publications such as :Gentleman's Magazine" that could have put it in print. I mentioned it in my post more hypnotically as a "historical if" relating to what would have happened had the plot materialized. Would Christian have assumend command? Would he have completed the mission.?

Regarding the John Adams character, the 18th century Barrows book notes that this name was an alias for Alexander or "Alex" Smith. It does not state a reason for this man to sign on the Bounty with an alias. I suppose, however that the taking of an alias name was quite easy to do in that early time before modern records were as well kept and so easily accessible as they are today. I cannot answer your question as to how he learned to read.

Ginny, if the John Adams prayer is not too long, you might post it here.

Well I've found three accounts, one at $1, 283.00, one at $1,170.00 and one at $518 or some such thing, I know there are other accounts out there cheaper, will keep trying, that was just on B&N

ginny

Harold

Cook had the entire Royal Navy to obtain a crew. He had fitness reports and the like.

For the Bounty, Bligh had to rely on "Volunteers, who were not always that eager to be a Volunteer." Many of them were the dregs. No fitness reports were available. He had to choose his officers from people he knew because they would have been the only ones he would have had any information as to their ability, stableness, and trustworthiness. Bligh's ship and mission was neither fish nor fowl It was not Royal Navy nor completely Merchant. He operated at the whim of the Royal Navy and the cheapness of the Merchants.

He should never been sent on that voyage with the mission he was given without adequate means of completing it: Probably another ship; a contingent of Marines and a proper complement of ratings and Officer's competent ones in both classes.

Bligh did as best he could under the circumstances. I cannot fault him in the way he carried out his orders nor in his conduct regarding the ship and the men. He was, after all, exonerated by the Admiralty a group not known for its mercy or liberalness.

Tiger Tom

I found it in Genesis books and have written to inquire the cost of viewing it, also found a professor who makes a point about how the men in the launch could not have been starving, but am late elsewhere so will have to table that for tomorrow, but apparently he's an authority on the Launch, hopefully he will talk to us!

ginny

Ginny, you make some good points in your message #417 which you sandwiched in this morning while I was drafting some replies to earlier posts. Your make some good points and I agree that the Hough theory that I am defending certainly is speculation without the possibility of being firmly proven. I grant it was not easy to take the bounty through the reef as your quotes certainly show but it could have been away for much of the time while the breadfruits were being nurtured ashore by the botanist. Remember, the loading of the plants did not come until the last days before the sailing after months of growing ashore. The accurate charting of the coasts would have added to the permanent knowledge bank concerning this Island chain and kept the Natives off the Bounty and out of contact with most of the crew. If the men had not become so accustomed to paradise, they would not have missed Tahiti so much when they left.

The concept of keeping the men occupied with their routine duties to avoid them getting into trouble while at leisure is one that was employed in my experience in the WW II, U.S. Navy. At Ulithi there was no shortage of Marines who confined the small Native population population to a single islet and kept us swabies in a constant work cycle albeit well l fed with two beers a day and a nightly movie with an occasional USO show with the female element well guarded by marines (officers). Believe me the idea of mutiny in order to stay would never have occurred to us.

PS: In the unlikely event of your needing a good trial attorney and if for any reason Tiger Tom is unavailable, my recommendation is that you obtain recommendations from O.J.

Harold,

My apologies if I got a little heated in my defense of Bligh. I said at the beginning that I was going to be his advocate.

I am all for bringing up any information from Historical publications or Publications that are History. Hough does not fit in either catagory.

I feel that he can be noted but it should be pointed out that he wrote what was basically a fiction, a Historical Novel. He tailored his research to fit the novel he was writing. Like Norduff and Hall he was writing for profit and wote a book he believe would sell better than one that did not contain some good Red Meat in it.

Again, my apologies if I offended.

Tiger Tom

Thanks Ginny and Pat

Ross took the picture of my Brother in Law while the Bounty replica was still in Lunenburg, Nova Scotia, before it left for New York. I was not on the East Coast at the time or I would have been there as well, PRANCING around that beautiful ship!

Ginny,

As you have pointed out, those ships were SMALL.

Bligh did more than most ship captains of his day would have even considered doing for the crew.

The size constraints of the ship didn't leave him too much room to do very much toward the comfort of the crew.

Nevertheless, he did have the crew's best interest at heart. He certainly had a much more healthy crew than most Captains had which meant that he had a much more healthy ship.

As I have noted before, Norduff and Hall claim that Mr Christian had a hot temper and sweated a lot when he tried to control it. Whereas they calim that Bligh was even tempered. How that got changed around in the films is beyond me.

Tiger Tom

Please Tiger Tom no apology is necessary. Something would be radically wrong If we agreed on everything. There is wide room for different opinions and different interpretations on every subject including our discussion in progress.

I will add a word concerning my view of the nature of the Hough book, “Captain Bligh and Mr Christian” which in my opinion is the best of the current readily available crop of over view history books on the Bounty mutiny. I note a vast difference between the nature of the Hough book and the fiction books like the Trilogy. At the end of the Hough book there is a lengthy annotated bibliography listing most of the recognized primary and major secondary sources. There are also references to contemporary accounts in 18th and early 19th century publications.

The shortcomings of this book lie in its failure to cite by footnote the source page by page as the story unfolds. This made it impossible to answer Ginny’s question concerning the source for the alleged Wyetooa plot to kill Bligh. While I am not suggesting that this “popular” history has the status of an academic research history or even the status of recent mass-market history books by the likes of Stephen Ambrose. Joseph Ellis, and David McCullough, I now recall no major known inaccuracy in the Hough writing. The same cannot be said about the fiction accounts.

Tiger Tom also relative to your Post this morning, the modifications made before the Bounty left England to acomodate the breadfruit plants reduced space normaly used for the crew, particularly the non-commissioned ratings.

Prancer, thank you for the picture taken on the Bounty replica. I wonder where the replica is now? Do you have any knowledge of it? Also note the size of the mast that appears in the picture. That was quite a tree! It is said that throughout the 19th century in the Maine woods trees would be discovered branded with a “Crown,” that had been placed by RN survey teams a century earlier designating the tree as crown property to be reserved for masts for navy ships

Ginny, I think I have read where Cook had insisted the men keep fit with routine exercise. I don’t remember if he used a fiddler and dancing for this purpose as Bligh did. I think Bligh did learn from Captain Cook, but perhaps not everything.

Scurvy was long the plague of long sea voyages living on vitamin lacking dry foods. The English carried limes for this purpose leading to the nickname, “limeies.” The Spanish carried onions and garlic pods for that purpose. Possibly the lower deck living areas on the English Ships would have been a bit fresher than the Spanish?

It is surly time we finish the long stay ashore at Tahiti and get the Bounty underway on course to enter history. Go ahead and post your final comments on Tahiti NOW. I hope to change the heading and focus questions by Saturday, but changed or not, come Saturday noon, the discussion begins on events occurring on the ship after its departure on April 4th and the Mutiny on April 28th

Bounty replica whereabouts

Harold Arnold: After speaking with my brother in law today, I learned that at the conclusion of the South Seas promotional tour, the Bounty was taken to Lunenburg in 1986 to be refitted with new sails. After that, it went for a tour up the St. Lawrence to Toronto, Ontario and then back to Florida. He thinks it may be there now, but isn't sure.

Maybe a Search for more information. I haven't done that yet.

This link says that the Bounty II is in Massachusetts.. and the Bounty III (Mel Gibson movie) is in Sydney, Australia.

http://membres.lycos.fr/hmsbounty/english/nav_repliques.htm#bounty_I

Ginny,

Great! I wonder what damage has been done to Bligh's logs and letters by "editing" and deleting over the years. I suspect that people with less than love for Bligh may have rewritten much of these works.

I wish some of the unpublished logs would find their way into publication if a good, impartial, editor could be found.

Thanks a bunch for your detective work. This does get more interesting. Bligh is looking more interesting by the day. I would have loved to have met and known the man. He just might have been the Ogre he has been painted to be but I have my doubts. A human with Human faults, yes, but also a Human with the best of human traits.

I guess I wear my heart on my sleeve.

Tiger Tom

Has anyone seen Mrs Watson or some of the other ladies?

I hope I haven't scared them off with the vigor of my defense of Bligh

Tiger Tom

Ginny,

Yes, "Yon Cassius has a lean and hungry look" If I remember Shakespear well enough. I guess that was what is needed in all of this, a plotter who schemes and gets others to do his dirty work

I have wondered if perhaps Christian may not have been maneuvered into both the Mutiny and leading it. I have run into the type before: Constantly scheming, agitating, and pushing others into the front while they stayed safely in the background waiting to see what happens and then jumping which ever way the wind blew.

I wonder too, what would be revealed if All of Bligh's logs, journals and notes were published with some honest editing by an unbiased editor.

Tiger Tom

I'm crawling slowly out from under the rock of despair, sisease and death but here I am. You are wonderful Tom, don't be silly. You make this discussion shine. I shall return after the antibiotics have kicked in (I hope.)

Alf,

A field of Flowers for you to dance in and hundreds of Birds singing to you from the branches above your head.

In other words, Please get better in a hurry but not so fast that you can't enjoy a day or so in bed with Hubby playing Nurse to you.

Tiger Tom

Thank you Ginny for your research resulting in your report on the present status of the Bligh log and papers. So Captain Bligh did carry the Bounty log in the launch to Timor and back to England. It seems strange that the Kennedy biography is not available today considering its rather recent publication date. Yet I could not find it available in the B & N used dealer network. There are several copies of the “Awake Bold Bligh” publication of his letters listed for under $100. .

My reprint of the Bligh log in the Launch to Timor is a reprint of the Admiralty copy that the reference noted was without the criticism of Purcell and Fryer. I will be quoting from this log when we get to that section.

And thank you Pat Westerdale for running down the present location of Bounty II and I see your site included Bounty III for good measure. The say the Bounty sailed to Tahiti in 63 days (I think it was). Sounds pretty fast making me wonder if auxiliary engines were included. The Specifications given did not say so.

Alf it was great to here you are feeling a bit better. All of us here wish you a quick recovery. We miss you and look forward to your return when you feel you are ready.

Alf

Alf, I'd like to add my wishes to you for a speedy recovery and a wonderful spring and summer ahead. Take good care.

Thank you Betty for your Message #429 with your rather complete summary of Bligh’s character as a naval leader. Your analysis with its break down into areas where Bligh was a great leader and the conditions were he failed seemed quite appropriate. I too have had little trouble in. noting defects in his leadership that contributed to the mutiny despite his great ability as a navigator chart maker and seaman.

Hopefully I will change the heading moving us to Section III of our discussion this afternoon. In any case the discussion is open to posts on Section III beginning this afternoon

I see the 1935 Charles Lauhton/Clark Gabel/etal film "Mutiny On The Bounty" will be shown tonight at 7:00 PM (Central) on the TCL cable network. I think TCL stands for Turner Classic Movie channel. It comes in on channel 256 with my Direct TV satellite hook up but that will differ with your provider. This is the 1935 Academy Award best film winner and I have not noticed it on the cable channels recently

Harold Arnold

Thank you for the notice.

The Laughton/Gable movie isn't listed in Canada, however, I have the video, so I must watch it again and keep in step with everyone in the discussion who may be watching tonight. Maybe because I saw this one first, I did prefer it to the later Brando movie. I also have the Trilogy now on loan and hope to be more prepared to better participate in the next segment of discussions.

Just watched the Gable/Laughton "Mutiny on the Bounty."

One thing stands out: Laughton was well cast as an evil Bligh. Laughton was a great actor. Had Bligh been written as a kind, gentle man Laughton could have easily played him that way. I still prefer Hopkins Bligh.

The 1935 movie sure played fast and lose with the Truth. Of course, is was based on a Hollywood treatment of a Fictional Novel. Unfortuantely, The images from the movie has stuck in many minds even those who have written books on the subject after the 1935 movie and should have done their research. It is like gossip that has been proven untrue, the gossip is still passed around and believed. So with this movie. Even in the face of actual facts the movie still continues to influence peoples perception of Bligh and the Mutiny

Laughton and many of the supprting actors were excellent. I am not so sure about Gable.

Tiger Tom

Ok, the bounty has departed Tahiti and is on its way to its date with destiny. The three part initial question concerns the principal events directly leading to the mutiny. I will add additional question as we progress.

I did not watch the cable movie last night, but I do have a VCR tape copy. I generally agree with Tiger Tom's assessment. I would go so far as to say I consider it the best of the lot as a movie, that is regarding acting and story line/continuity, etc, but the worst of the lot so far as being true to history is concern. Regarding the Hopkins remake, I agree it is the best of the lot regarding history, but to me the worst of all regarding the telling of a story.. I doubt it got a second look at Academy Award time.

Now that the Bounty loaded with its breadfruit cargo has departed Tahiti we see our principals at their worst. Not only Bligh, but all members of the crew seem in a state of shock as they realize they will never see Tahiti again. Christian in particular seems effected, doubtless he misses Isiabella.. And what is wrong with Bligh? It seems he has a continual chip on his shoulder. Most of his disciplines taking the form of loud tirades “dressing down” Mr. Christian and others in the presence of the crew were at best ineffectual and certainly destructive of the morale or the ship's company.

There were also more serious manifestations of what I consider a Bligh breakdown at this point. He made some strange decisions including his sudden abandonment of his long-term policy prohibiting private trading with the natives. That trade session on the Bounty’s decks, gave them the appearance of our local Wallmart last Christmas Eve afternoon. Another serious laps of judgment by Bligh concerns his sudden decision to hold the native chiefs to ransom the return of an insignificant item stolen earlier by natives and an equally sudden reversal releasing them. And the final most irrational Bligh decision was his accusing Mr Christian of stealing his coconuts that were in a large pile on the deck. This seems to have left Christian, his second in command, in a suicidal state. These incidents to me are manifestations of a serious Bligh mental breakdown affecting his ability to make the rational decisions expected of his position as Captain of an isolated ship at sea.

Harold,

I am only going to say I disagree with some of what you have said in your last post. Not with you per se, but with what you said of Bligh which I take it that you got from your readings.

I am not going to tip my hand any more. I have been blabbing my defense of Bligh while the "King's Prosecutor," Harold, has been seeing all of that and not revealing a thing of what his strategy will be when we put Bligh and Christian on trial.

So, we leave Tahiti and will soon meet events ending in the Mutiny.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom, absolutely, you are Blighs defense council. I am aware other views are possible. I expect you to make a strong defense. Also Tiger if you have any focus questions to add in the heading do send them to me by E-mail.

PS: note that I did just edit my previous message to add the Bligh allegation that Christian stole his coconuts to the list of Bligh's aleged irational decisions. I will be out of pocket this afternoon at the ITC but will check in this evening

Ginny,

Besides Laughton, Gable and Tone, part of the fun of watching the movie was spoting character actors. Donald Crisp for one. Some others.

I understand that Laughton and Gable didn't care for one another and it didn't get any better during the filming.

Frankly, I do not believe that the people who made the film really cared if the actors looked Gordo when supposedly starving to death. Their main focus seemed to be making Bligh look as horrible as possible and Christian look as Heroic as possible.

Yes, Tone did well considering some of the lines he was given and some of the situations he was put in. As far as I am concerned he would have made a better Christian than Gable. I could believe that Tone would have had the men's best interest at heart. Gable never gave me that impression.

I am not going to touch the "She" thing with a ten-foot pole.

It will be interesting th see what the Mitchell Library says. There must be some reason that much information is being withheld.

The one thing that Bligh said, in the movie, was when he went into the Launch he looked up at Christian and said: "You have taken my ship from me." twice he said that. In a very plaintive voice. That struck me. Bligh was shown to be human there.

Here we go sailing off into the Sunset, we say goodby to beautiful Tahiti (Remember those old shorts shown in between films.)

Tiger Tom

Ginny,

That Biography of Laughton sounds good. I had bought a Biography of Laughton some years ago but all it seems to be concerned with was his Homosexulaity. That and Lancaster's many affairs.

That book was written back in the days when all that seemed to find its way into print was gossip and tarring of reputations.

I could care less about Laughton or anyone else's Sexual preferrence, that is their business. What I want to read about is their professional life.

Watched the Oscars last night at my wife's insistance. I was happy for Halle Berry but was a little Embarassed by such emotion.

Tiger Tom

Ginny,

Gable was picked for Christian in the hopes of drawing in a female audiance.

Difference between Gable and Tone was that Tone was the well-to-do, sophisticated, Man-About-town, type and Gable was the Manly, Earthy type. They appealed to different Audiences. Tone was the better actor and would have certainly made Bligh look more monsterous than Gable did. But, for the purposes of the people who made the movie Gable was guaranteed to draw in more women to the movie so they chose him.

Donald Crisp, I cannot remember the name of the Character he played so I can't point him out to you. I do remember he was in one scence where he was chained to the wall and another character came in and Crisp asked him for water and got abuse instead. Had something jamed into his mouth was being hit when Gable came in and put a stop to it. Crisp was a Scot who was in many films in late 30's and early 40's. He played Roddy McDowells Father in "Lassie Come Home."

Laughton and Gable rubbed one another the wrong way. It may be that Gable knew of Laughton's Sexual Preferences. Gable was the He-Man hetrosexual and his type is usually offended by a homosexual. Doubt if Gable was Homophobic but his reaction to Homosexuality was normal for his type. Anyway they worked together but didn't associate off the set and tended to avoid one another.

Tough to call Spring Byington. She would have been a young woman at that time.

The small dark haired man was a leading character actor and had some leading roles in the late 30's. Can't recall his name.

Tiger Tom

What I would dearly love to see is the Admiralty's record on Bligh. His fitness reports. Commendations and Comdenations. What did the Admiralty think of him. What may have been written by his commanders that eventually wound up in his file (if there was one.)

Bligh seemed to be held in some regard by the Admiratly. This may have been based on his skill as a Navigator and Cartographer.

I don't even know if there is place that one could query the Admiralty if they have any records on Bligh.

Tiger Tom

Ginny,

Will do. There is a book store in London that I deal with, Foyle's Booksellers. I might ask them what they have in the way of Records or Books on Bligh.

I would imagine that the British might have a different take on Bligh than the American's Would be interesting to find out.

Frankly, I think that the Professor is full of it up to his eye balls. But then, that is just my opinion.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom, some of your questions can be answered. Hough sketches the available material in his last chapter which we will get into in detail in our last section.. Obviously the man had great merit when it came to navigation, charting, and the handling of ships under sail. Bligh’s passed many of the tests he was subjected to during his career, first with Cook, again with much of his Bounty experience including his successful open boat voyage to Timor, and finally as captain of warships at the battles of Camperdown and Copenhagen. On the eve of his retirement he was promoted to Vice Admiral.

The source of Bligh’s problems lie in his inability to interface with and to work effectively with his subordinates and crew. Even though the records indicate that this controversy and trouble followed Bligh throughout his career, it is hard to judge how much is due to Bligh and how much to the general 18th century culture prevalent at the time. Mutiny, both threatened and real were not uncommon in the 18th century R.N. I note from the short biographical sketches in my reprint of the Barrow account, that many of the Captains and Admirals sitting in the Court Martial of the Bounty Mutineers, were involved with mutinies at some time in their careers. To me the record of Bligh’s handling of his command during the three-week period after the Bounty departed Tahiti (summarized in my post 449), indicate a real mental breakdown that rendered him ineffective as a commander and left his key subordinate suicidal. We are open to arguments defending Bligh’s decision during this crucial three weeks after departing Tahiti.

Harold,

I would take Hough with a whole Salt Mine.

Bligh was COMMANDER. If he had a hissy fit every morning, so what. He was the guy with all of the responsibility. If any one of his subordniates fouled up Bligh ultimately bore the responsibility.

If his subordinates were suicidal because they got their butt chewed for not doing their job then it was they who had the mental problems, not Bligh.

Bligh did NOT have to work with this Officers and men. It was THEY who had to work with him. The man had enough on his plate to drive anyone to distraction let alone having a Horney First Officer and insubordinate petty Officers.

The reason that some officers didn't have troubles and controversy is because they ruled by fear and intimidation. Nelson, Hero, was a tyrant. Bligh was unfortunate, he was ahead of his time and the people he had to work with were of their own time.

I cannot say that bligh had a mental breakdown. Instead, he may have felt that some of the pressure of his mission had been taken off now that they had the Breadfruit safely stowed on board and were headed home. Bligh, thinking that he could count on his crew, probably let his guard down and acted as many people do when relieved of pressure, giddy.

Tiger Tom

Who selected Christian? Who selected the Midshipmen who functioned as de facto officers at this point in the voyage? What was the standard used to make the selection? The answer is that the choice was Bligh’s, and they were chosen based on past association or family friendships. The choice of Christian and his subsequent “at sea” promotion reflects a curious past relationship suggesting more the quasi father-mentor/son relationship than a professional senior officer/junior officer association. Bligh chose his midshipmen as sons of families he and his family knew. All were young at least one as young as 15. Though one of the midshipmen did survive to serve a long career in the R.N., none distinguished themselves on the Bounty mission.

Regarding Hough’s source for his information, he discusses this on page 131 of his book. He notes that Bligh gives very little information on the 2-week period between the Bounty’s departure from Tahiti and the mutiny. Such information coming from Bligh lacked details concerning the principal incidents involving Bligh with Christian and others during the critical pre mutiny weeks. Hough notes reliance on John Fryer’s narrative, Morrison’s account, evidence given at the Court Martial, materials given later to Edward Christian, and verbal reminiscences of John Adams many years later. While this record is not exactly black and white, it seems sufficient basis for a reasonable jury to apply the basic rule followed in the U. S. Navy today holding a Captain responsible for the failure of subordinates. To day in the U.S. Navy, I think Bligh at least would have been found with a sufficient degree of complicity to end his naval career sending him quite honorably to employment n the private sector of our economy.

On the subject of Bligh’s mental state in the days preceding the mutiny, I refer to his allegation that Christian stole his coconuts. Big deal! After opening the Bounty’s decks for private trading by the crew Bligh and others apparently acquired private stocks of coconuts. Bligh's stock was stored in a rather large pile on the open deck over night. The next morning Bligh inspected his store that to him appeared diminished in size. He blamed Christian who had been on watch. While there was opinion that the pile had just spread out, Christian admitted eating one. This set off Bligh to publicly curse and discipline Christian leaving him in a suicidal state.

Later that evening Bligh seems to have changed his mind and invited Christian to dine with him. Christian, now planning desertion from the ship by crude raft, refused. This instance again shows the weak character of Christian; it also pictures Bligh in a state of mental breakdown, indecisive and willing to jeopardize his mission over a two-bit coconut!

Harold,

Good on ya. That last post had some spirit in it. Perhaps we are drawing some lines.

Give me a while to absorb the post before I answer anything I feel must be either answered or refuted.

If none is needed none will be forthcoming.

How is that for a weasel?

Tiger Tom

DROPPING IN TO WISH YOU ALL A VERY HAPPY EASTER SEASON

Don't bite the bunnie's head off!!

From what I have read, anything based on the writings of Fryer, Morrison, remembered by Adams and interviews by Edward Christian should be taken with several tons of salt.

Fryer and Bligh had a long history of animosity bordering atleast on Fryer's part on hatred. This is exemptlified by Fryer's attempt to convince the Dutch that Bligh had overcharged the Admiralty for items that the Dutch had sold to Bligh "on account". When the charges proved false Fryer wrote to Bligh a letter begging forgivness and trying to undo what he had attempted. This is from 'Bligh' by Kennedy where he cites Rutter in 'The Voyage of the Bounty's Launch as related in William Bligh's dispatch to the Admiralty and the Journal of John Fryer'. Now how can something from a book with a title like that be wrong, they just don't make book titles like that anymore.

Morrison was a convicted mutineer. His writing's had the primary purpose of saving his neck from being stretched. He was a former Midshipman who was working as a boatswain's mate, and a very good "sea lawyer" as proved by the fact that he was not hanged even though he was found guilty. According to Kennedy, much of his journal was written long after the voyage. Bligh in his own handwriting in remarks on Morrison's Journal that are in the Mitchell Library, calls Morrison "the worst of the mutineers next to Christian and Curchill" as cited by Kennedy.

Adam's recollections were made many years later, and were verbal and quoted by those who talked to him. He changed the history of what happened on Pitcairn to suit himself.

Edward Christian's one goal was to try to assure that if his brother was ever caught he would not be hanged. He was a lawyer who tried through devious means to put together a case not so much for his brother but against Bligh. This was after Heywood and Morrison had been found quilty but pardoned and while the whereabouts of Fletcher Christian were still unknown. Had it not been for Edward Christian's 'Appendix' no one would ever remember the Mutiny of the Bounty. The 'Appendix' was put together by Edward Christian and was published ar his expence as an appendix to the written court marshall of the mutineers brought back from Tahiti.

Bligh did not have a mental breakdown, he was just being his usual verbally abusive self. He always had been a screamer and a curser. Christian may have come apart for various reasons, but Bligh was just being the same old Bligh.

Why did Christian fall apart? Was he not as adept as Fryer and others at letting Bligh's verbal chewing out roll off of him? Did he want to get back to Tahiti and his special woman so badly that he lost all reason? Was he pushed by Stewart who is quoted as saying 'The people are ripe for anything' by Morrison? I don't know, but I think if anyone had a mental breakdown it was Fletcher Christain.

Just some thoughts.

Zwyram,

Very interesting post. Full of good information.

Yes, it was the Chrisitan family who set to and succeeded in blackening Bligh's name in order to make Fletcher Christian look good and as the victim of Bligh's meanesss toward him.

Shouldn't wonder that Bligh was a screamer and a curser. That was just about the only way one could get anything done aboard ship. Scream because of the noise and wind; curse because the Seamen didn't move fast enough or were reluctant to go into the rigging in bad weather. Actually if one wanted screaming and cursing one would have to listen to one of the Bos'sun mates. Along with he Knout their loud and colorful language got the men to moving.

I am not sure that people realize that on a sailing ship life was not the same as on shore. It was hard, cold, nasty, and dangerous. More often than not the men had to be driven because they were afraid or incapable.

Bligh was no worse than most Commanders of his age and later during the days of Sail.

Tiger Tom

For those who will be visiting relatives or friends or be busy with same at your home.

Happy Easter.

Tiger Tom

Zwyram, your analysis outlined in message 466 is a good one. No question but that each of the survivors making it back to England had his own personal interest to protect. It is hard at this late date to judge what is the truth and what is not. We like the Court Martial trying the Bounty Defendants in 1792 must from the evidence decide what is true and what is not and make our individual judgments according to our conscious.

Hough in “Captain Bligh and Mr Christian” gives a short summary of the testimony of Freyer, Cole, Purcell, Peckover, Hayward and Hallet for the prosecution, and the defendants in their behalf, particularly Heywood. By the usual process of witness examination and cross-examination a version of which is still used in Anglo-Saxon jurisdictions today, a record emerged from which the court made its judgment and from which we today can get information of the event.

This process is well suited for extracting truth from conflicting testimony by the observation of the existence or absence of conflict between the accounts of witnesses, and by other subtle means. It is from this source that Bligh’s abusive relationships of his subordinates were found to be a factor leading to the mutiny. From this record reasonable people today from the 18th record can conclude that Bligh’s handling of several principal events occurring during the weeks after the Bounty departed Tahiti cumulating in Bligh accusing Christian of stealing his coconuts, left Christian suicidal leading Christian as an alternative to desertion to seize an opportunity to lead the mutiny. As this did not absolve the mutineers (including Christian had he been captured) from their guilt of mutiny, neither can the fact that the mutiny occurred absolve Bligh of his shortcomings as a naval officer in command at sea!

As to Morison’s guilt or innocence in the mutiny, it appears it was the prosecution witnesses who on cross-examination left doubt regarding his complicity that saved him. Though he was initially judged guilty, the Court recommended him like Heywood for the Kings Mercy. A pardon saving both for further RN careers was issued within two weeks of the verdict.

Why did Christian fall apart? Was he not as adept as Fryer and others at letting Bligh's verbal chewing out roll off of him? Did he want to get back to Tahiti and his special woman so badly that he lost all reason?

Christian and Fryer were two different individuals each reacted in his own way. I think you are right is listing Christians loss of Isabella as a factor in his mental state. Christian of course as later events on Pitcairn showed again was a rather weak character. Freyer did little to distinguish himself through out the voyage, but according to the Hough account again based on the testimony coming out of the Court Martial probably had his best hour at the time of the mutiny when he did at least argue with the mutineers and council others to watch for any opportunity to re-take the ship.

Bligh says in The Last Mutiny that he understood the Christian type for his egotistic conceit and made allowance for him but he never had the patience to understand the carping and grizzling of Fryer and Frazier. He says "I took the fellow (Fryer)in the long boat on sufferance because the mutineers didn't want him and would have probably slit his throat." He continues " I cajole and cosset and carry them all along so that I bring the whole boatlad safe thru storm and coral reefs and cannibals, over 4,000 miles in an open boat from Tofoa to Timor and when safety in in sight this chicken-livered Fryer has no better gratitude than to foment another mutiny because I had had to ration provisions." He felt that Fryer, as Master of the Bounty, was the one man who should have foreseen and forestalled the Mutiny. Our egotistical Capt. says: "I have never had Cook's luck in my masters-- - Cook had ME!"

Did Bligh really invent a Sea Captain's Patent Urinal? In this book he tells of it and says that for 25 years it has stimulated the most colorful and unbelievable rumors in the crews of his ships.

He held to the dictums of Marcus Aurelius throughout this book. " When thou art offended at any man's fault forthwith turn to thyself and reflect in what like manner thou dost err thyself." After that he said that he had reflected and came to the comfortable, but inescapable, conclusion that he had erred NOT at all.

His recollections turned to nightmares after falling asleep and he found himself staring at Matthew Quintal who had been dead for 16 years.

Quintal was to Bligh the murderer of the Bounty! He dreams Quintal is called to give witness to Bligh's irrational behavior. Quintal says " He drove us to mutiny. It were his shocking intemperant language we couldn't abide. It's very hard for you to understand his damning and his violence, his rigadoon bitches and his dastards and blaggards. I swear, it made our lives a misery."

Alf,

Bligh was dead right about Cook: He had Bligh for a Master.

Let us say that the Bounty had been a proper royal Navy vessel. It would have had a Marine Contingent large enough to keep order.

Bligh as Commander could in those circumstances had the lot of them Keel Hauled or given enough lashes to be a Death Warrent. That was NOT uncommon in the Royal Navy and there were NO Courts Martials because of it.

Bligh was forced by circumstances to keep order as best he could. He had to make sure the AB's and the rest knew that he was The Commander and that he was to be obeyed and failure to obey would bring some kind of punishment.

I agree with bligh, he had not erred.

Those poor babies, the mean old Commander used bad language. This in an age where the lash was the lot of the seaman and Keel Hauling was not uncommon. Flogging around the Fleet occured reguraly. Floggings of 50 and 100 Lashes was given for even minor infractions. In a Royal navy ship some of what the men under Bligh did could have been judged as going over the border of insubordination into Mutiny and Bligh could have had the person Hung.

1000 miles away from Home Port the Commander was ships LAW if he said a man was Mutinous and had him hung so be it. The admiralty would have backed him to the hilt. They had to. They didn't dare set any precedents. When Bligh was Court Martialed for losing his ship he was going to be found not guilty from the beginning even before the trial started. It was a show trial because regulations called for it. ONLY if bligh had lost his ship through stupidity, rashness, carelessness, etc. But NOT for calling his men names and having those babies Mutiny.

Bligh was a better man and a far better Seaman than any other person on board the Bounty. There was probably only a small handfull, if that, of Seamen who could have done what Bligh did in bringing that Launch and the men in it safely over 4000 thousand miles of open sea amid Islands filled with Hostile Natives.

Tiger Tom

Bligh also said that he was waterproof. He kept his eye on Fryer as Fryer sat hunched and immobile for some time with a show of animation. He told Bligh that "there's no point in bailing, we're dead men anyway." Bligh told him

"Mr. Fryer, you bail or you are a dead man." At that point he jabbed a knife forward an inch to quicken Fryer's decision.

You're right Tom, Bligh believed that he had committed no wrong; that the wheels of fate had spun with a velocity beyond his control. He said that his ship had been in perfect order and his mission nigh accomplished. "Christian and his fellow pirates had destroyed everything to return to the dissipation of Otaheite."

His task was clear- to bring this launch and its crew, grateful or otherwise, home to Britain, to recount to the King and country the criminal actions taken against them and to see those actions redressed and the mutineers brought to trial. He felt confident that he would not flounder. He said "the strength of my determination would blunt and defeat the tempests raised against us, By God, I would lead these drownlings and bend them to my purpose and save them in spite of themselves." He also considered this drenched crew brave men. "Most of them looked dead and I truly believe that were I not there, they would have fallen on the bread and the little food we'd saved, and drunk all the rum and in very truth left it to the Lord to provide for the morrow."

He continued to encourage them that land must be nigh and said "after 15 days of nearly continuous deluge they regarded me, I feared, more as Jonah than Moses, or Noah. "

He described New Guinea and New Holland to them, giving them information that if any accident befell him the crew would have a chance or making their own way to Timor.

He goes on to say that he felt many times that the Lord had him under his particular protection but there were other times when he panicked at the thought that the news of the Bounty outrage might be lost to the civilized world by an oversight of his own.

"As far as insturcting my delinquent jacks in the practice of navigation I feared that I might as well have used my breath in singing of Simon the Pieman."

I thought that the overall plan for this discussion centered around comparing sources (why we took so long to come up with a list of them, and keep adding to the list)......having fun comparing fiction sources (movies, books, like Alf's above) and having fun comparing a range of serious sources....some more serious than others, some dated, some "popular" masquerading as academic history, some hidden away in museums (those glorious letters Ginny found). Even though there would be lots and lots of room for plain 'ole opinion (see my last post, haha), I thought the foundation of the discussion would be a search in the documents for "truth," or at least 58 versions of it, depending on the sources!

Betty

I'm stymied, kind of ---

From reading some of the Trilogy, watching 2 versions of the movie, and reading posts here, I think I still feel that Bligh did his best for the times and situations he had to deal with.

The Mutiny was an accident waiting to happen, in my opinion.

Maybe a simplistic view, however, could possibly change. Not over till it's over.

Betty,

Sorry, I do get carried away don't I.

Will try to do better in future. However, I cannot gurantee that I won't go off half cocked again.

Tiger Tom

It's my understanding that it is a difficult task to seperate the fact from the fiction. that is why I quoted the source that I read. It is listed as a fictional account but then again--- who knows the real truth??

Hey It’s good to see a little Spirit here. Tiger Tom, Alf, Betty Prancer and all go for it!

I think it is perfectly proper to consider the fictional presentations here. If the poster has a comparable true history source he/she should call attention to the difference. If the poster cites no historical comparison another participant knowing of a historical source should call it to our attention. In any case we must remember that in the end the fictional account is not history. The comparison is of value to us only as information on how fiction writers have treated true history in their fictional accounts.

Another thing regarding the fiction accounts and for that matter some of the popular histories, we must remember that dialog quoting the characters is simply something that in the opinion of the author the character might have said. Little if any direct quotes of supposed oral dialog can be thought of as any better than, “it might have been said.” Even Hough in his account that I have supported and continue to support as popular history is guilty of giving the character oral dialog on several occasions.

You might notice that I have added 2 more questions to the Focus questions in the heading. I suggest it is time for us to get on to dissect the actual happening of the mutiny, how Christian in a state of depression plans desertion from the ship at sea, a plan that almost certainly would have proved suicidal; how George Stewart, a midshipman suggests an alternate; and how Christian impulsively acts to accept the leadership in the mutiny

Thought the questions will remain a part of the heading, I am repeating them here:

2. Have you in your mind identified the mutineers? I suggest you classify our principal actors into three groups- (1) the rabid mutineers, (2) The neutrals just waiting to see which side emerged on top before casting their lot, and (3) the loyalists. Who are some names you judge rabid mutineers? Who were the Neutrals waiting to see who won? Who were the loyalists? 3. Do you see anyone as a real loyalist other than Bligh? 4. Who were the crew members with Bligh in the long boat selected? Were some with Bligh really guilty of the crime? Were some loyalists left with the Bounty?

It is an interesting assignment to try to sort out who was on what side. Using only Bligh by Kennedy, I have come up with the following list. Loyal to Bligh; John Samuel, clerk; Thomas Hayward, midshipman;John Hallet, midshipman; David Nelson, gardener; William Peckover, gunner; John Smith, cook; Thomas Hall, clerk; Thomas Ledward, surgeon's mate; William Cole, boatswain; and Lawrence Lebogue, sailmaker. This is the list of those in the open boat that sided with Bligh when Fryer attempted a mini mutiny on the island off of Australia. Added to the list of at least non-mutineers must be Charles Norman, Joseph Coleman, Thomas McIntosh and Michael Byrn who were acquited by the court marshall. The hard core mutineers must include those who went on to Pitcairn Island. They were Fletcher Christian, William Brown, Matthew Quintal, William McCoy, Alexander Smith (John Adams), John Mills, Edward Young, John Williams and Isaac Martin. Added to this list should be those found guilty by the court marshall and hanged; Thomas Ellison, Thomas Burkit, John Millward and William Musprat. This leaves the interesting cases.

I don't think there is much doubt about John Sumner and Matthew Quintal being actively involved in the mutiny, they feel out with Christian early on when they got back to Tahiti, Christian had no control of them. Stewart died on the way back to England so his record didn't mean much, but he was involved early and often in at least behind the scene in the mutiny.

Now to the really fun cases. Peter Heywood, midshipman, had lots of help in high places. Fortunately there is still in existance some of the correspondence between Bligh and Heywood's family from before the mutineers were returned to England. There was no doubt in Bligh's mind that Heywood was totally guilty. He was found guilty but the sentence was commuted, mostly through political influence. Still a mutineer!

James Morrrison, boatswain's mate, was one hell of a "sea laywer." His 'notes' would have to survive the sinking of the "Pandora" on the return to England. Kennedy makes a very strong case that all of Morrison's notes that he refered to in his damnation of Bligh had to have been written after he was back in England awaiting court marshall. He got to many dates and details wrong to have been truly working from notes. You have to give him credit he beat the rap without friends in high places. Still a mutineer.

The efforts in behalf of Heywood and Morrison were what lead to Edward Christian building a case against Bligh. If these two could be found quilty of mutiny and get off there was hope for his brother Fletcher. The whereabouts of the mutineers that left Tahiti was at this time still unknown. Edward Christian went to a lot of effort to set things up so that if Fletcher was ever caught there was a case for him not hanging. This is where the whole Muntiny on the Bounty ledgend begins. Had it not been for the extensive, if questionable, appendix to the court marshall the story would have died in the vaults of the admiralty.

I have a couple of other thoughts about Fryer and Purcell. They certainly were not loyalists. They were probably put in the boat with Bligh because the mutineers didn't want them either. They caused Bligh enough grief both before and after the mutiny to merit special mention. Fryer was more disloyal for longer time than Fletcher Christian ever though about. He was out to undermine Bligh at every opportunity after Christian was made lieutenant. Purcell was just plain hard to get along with and was Fryer's best tool to use against Bligh, whether he was actively opposed to Bligh or not. They continued to be a thorn in Bligh's side even after he had gotten them safely back to Timor. If Bligh had put the two of them ashore (stranded them) on Tasmania when the first big problem occured he might have been able to used them as an example of what could happen if you went to far with the Captain, and re-established discipline aboard the Bounty and worried about the consequences later. Although I'm not sure how big a threat being stranded on Tahiti would have been.

This has been lots of opinions based mostly on Kennedy's 'Bligh'. These opinions are worth exactly what you paid for them, nothing.

Harold,

Darned good questions, Darned hard Answers.

Zwyram. VERY good post. You guys leave me speechless. A rare occurence.

Tiger Tom

As far as I know, the only "Kennedy" source is "Bligh" by Gavin Kennedy. It is ISBM0715609572 published in 1978, there is one copy in our local library that I have out almost continually since this discussion started, fortunately no one else in town seems to want it.

Zwyram, thank you for your analysis classifying the Bounty personnel. Based on Ginny’s comment on your Kennedy book,, you appear to have the best source based on the comment she received from the Mitchell Library.

Does the Kennedy account of the sequence of events of the unfolding of the mutiny conform to the Hough account? Hough summarizes the mutiny sequence beginning in the predawn hours of April 18th as follows: (1) Christian is left depressed and suicidal after what he considered unjustified and excessive humiliation by Bligh. He formulated a plan to desert the bounty using a crude raft of timber planks, a plan he realized had little prospect for success. (2) Christians state of mine and even his planned desertion seems rather well know among the crew. George Stewart cautioned Christian on the danger of his plan and its little prospect for success. (3) On the fatal morning as Christian took over the watch at 4:00 AM, Edward Young, going off watch, spoke to Christian telling him the men would support his taking over the ship. ie, a mutiny. He in effect suggeste Christian lead the mutiny. (4) Within the hour as dawn broak Christian acted and the mutiny was begun.

Zwyram and Ginny, how does this scenario of events compare with the description in your Kennedy source? Hough as usual does not footnote his account giving only an overall statement that his sources are from the writings of survivors and the testimony of the Court Martial.

Is it not interesting that the Bligh log has never been published? I wonder why? Based on Ginny’s comment it does not seem to be available even for scholars and that is a shame. Yet I guess I doubt that it would tell a lot of details of the occurrence of the mutiny since Bligh who wrote the log may have known less about what was going on than most of the ship’company.

Harold, the sequence of events you related agrees pretty closely to that reported by Kennedy. The comment form Young that the men would support him is not part of this version. The rest looks close.

Ginny,

Kennedy in his Bibliography lists "The log of the Bounty" twice. Once as See Rutter (ed.), 1937. Owen Rutter wrote several books on Bligh in the 1930's. Rutter edited a two volume set in 1937 entitled "The Log og the Bounty, being Lieutanent William Bligh's Log of the proceedings of His Majesty's Armed Vessel 'Bounty' on a voyage to the South Seas to take the breadfruit from the Society Islands to West Indies, now published for the first time from the manuscript in the Admiralty records" How's that for a title The second listing reads 1975. "The Log of H.M.S. Bounty, 1787-1789. London (facsimile of Admiralty copy PRO Adm. 55/151;limited edition) So it would appear that Kennedy did not have access to the log in the Mitchell Library.

Z

Gulp!

With all this expertise being posted, I think I'll take my seat and be a student, if that is all right...

Prancer,

Double gulp.

I think I had better sit down beside you and do some learning too. That is some heavy stuff that is being posted.

Keep going guys.

Tiger Tom

Having figured out that Ginny is a bibliophile, I love posting for her benefit some of the very, very long titles that show up in Kennedy's bibliography.

Z

Ginny,

Have been trying to find a site on Goggle for the British Admiralty with no luck so far.

However, have found a few things of interest mostly about Captain cook. Apparently he was insturmental in the delay of the introduction of Lime juice on board ship for twenty years due to a report of his regarding using Sour Kraut and other things to combat scurvey.

One site I found that I believe you and the other women in this discussion will find very interesting:

Women & The Sea, the Mariners Museum. It is about women who were allowed to accompany their husbands aboard Men Of War (Sailing Ships) Their lives aboard ship. What they did during battle (acted as Nurses and carried Powder to the Guns.) Not a few were killed. There is more but I only read a small part of one section. There are four sections.

I always thought that women were forbidden on ship. Guess not. Not only Officers wives but those of the seamen too on occasion. Lack of Privacy was a concern. This also tells about birth aboard ship and how the Guns had to be fired to help in the birth. Which gives the "Son of a Gun" to us.

This can be found by going to Google, typing in British Admiralty and going to page 13 and looking for the site "women & the Sea, the Mariners Museum

Tiger Tom

Ladies

Does anyone relish that "gun shot birth"? NOT ME. Was there anything like "Shotgun Weddings"?

That is interesting, Tiger Tom, I am going to look that up and read the whole thing.

I'm still sitting in my seat waiting for the next lesson on Mutiny. Tiger, sit still, don't be squirming!

Prancer,

I think you will find that site interesting, I did.

I only read a bit of it. May go back and read some more later.

I am squirming beccause I am sitting beside a pretty lady. Not used to that any more. However, I believe I will just sit here and enjoy the feeling.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom

"Oh, my," she said, as she lowered her eyes and blushed, while nervously fanning her face, "do sit down, sir, and enjoy the lessons!"

Now, ought we start writing a book??

Tiger Tom

Seriously! I got way into that site that you suggeted about Women and the Sea. It is amazing! I see they were making my Molasses Cookies. (one place she was missing the flour!). Well, I LIVE on those cookies and I brainstorm as well, when making them. Never quite the same twice. LOL I've bookmarked as far as I read (resting eyes) and am going to read the whole thing. Thanks.

Woops. Getting off topic. This is about Bounty. Sorry!

Prancer,

My Lady, I AM sitting next to you. Please don't blush although it does make you look even prettier than ever.

Yes, we will study our lessons. Can we hold the book together?

Write a book? Don't know, what subjet?

Tiger Tom

Prancer,

Seriously,

Glad that you have found that site interesting.

I only read a little. May go back and read more in a bit.

I wonder if there is any documentation.?

I noticed there was a painting (small that one could click on) of Nelson laying wounded on the Victory. Along side the painting was a caption saying: Can you see the women in this painting. I didn't look at that time but may when I go back.

Molasses Cookies. Never tasted one of those.

Tiger Tom

Molasses Cookies

Tiger Tom: OHHHH! You're in for a treat!

I have a 9 X 12 inch copy of the famous painting by A. W. Devis 1763 -1822) entitled "The Death of Nelson." This is in a coffee table size book entitled, "Great Sea Battles."

A marksman firing from the tops of a French vessel shot the Admiral through the spine. He was carried below where he died. In the picture there are 10 figures all men standing and kneeling around Nelson laying on a pallet against a bulkhead. Two ship lanterns illuminate the scene. Captain Hardy, the Flagship Victory's Captain stands over the dying admiral while the Doctor feels his pulse and the Chaplain rubs his chest

In a 1930's movie, "That Hamilton Woman" there is a wonderful reenactment of the Battle of Trafalgar. This movie has Nelson being warned not to wear his uniform and metals on deck as snipers were active. Nelson rejects the warning saying, "I won them in battle, I shall wear them in battle." Switching to the French ship, a sniper high in the rigging spots Nelson with his metals. "Le Admiral," he mutters as he aims and Nelson falls with his fatal wound.

I remember seeing a re-release of this movie at the Paramount Theater in Austin in 1948.

Harold Arnold

Yes, I have a video of "That Hamilton Woman" which I taped from TV one time, (in black and white). I like Vivien Leigh and I suppose I watched it more for the romance (as a woman). It was a very good story, as I think back now.

Ginny,

British Admiralty, then, PAGE 13. Halfway down.

Actually, I find that one can go to google, type in Women & the Sea and find the same site there. It is listed as Women & the Sea, Maritime Museum. There are a number of other interesting site in that area.

Tiger Tom

Here is the "Women and the Sea" links: Women and the Sea

To go directly to 18th century accounts of women at sea click: Going To Sea

From this page choose "Women Posing as Sailors," "Women In The British Navy." and "Merchant and Whaling Wives." Then click each of the 10 chapter headings in the left hand frame, "Myth & Merimaids, "life in Port,"Going To Sea," Lighthouse Keepers", and etc.

Tiger Tom is this the site you mentioned?

Harold,

Yes it is.

BTW, there is a site that has some books sold by "Salt Water books" or I believe that is how it is called.

I found it by simply going to google, typing in Women & the Sea and trolling the various sites. This one is on the first page. You might have to click on a few to find it. I have forgotten which one it is.

Anyway, there are a number of interesting books listed there. Not the usual, some of these are on Knots, Rigging and the like.

Tiger Tom

Mr. Christian! MR CHRISTIAN!!!

Where are my Coconuts?

Time to get back on course. We have been out of Tahiti for a few days and the crew is getting restless. Mr. Christian seems to be acting a little odd.

Where are we Harold?

Tiger Tom

Where are we Harold?

I will have at least one more post (probably tomorrow) on the events just after the mutiny as the long boat was loaded and the loyalists departed the Bounty. (I am tied to my National Historical Park work today). I think that this is the time for any one else to add their final comments on this crucial period.

The next Item will be to follow Bligh and the loyalist in their voyage to Timor and back to England. This will be a long section as it also includes the dispatch and voyage of the Pandora. Possibly depending on your interest. We can move to the new section about the end of the week

In any case we are still open for final comment on the mutiny from all participants.

Things have gotten much to quiet, so I will throw a handgrenade in the middle and see if we can rouse some discussion.

Fletcher Christian should in no way ever be considered a hero! He was a weak, selfish man who betrayed the one man that tried to help him in his career in the Royal Navy. Bligh promoted him over Fryer's head to lieutenant, which was probably one of Bligh's worst mistakes. Christian became so enamored of the young lady from Tahiti and the Tahitian life style that he started a mutiny in order to get back to Tahiti. If he had not lost all sense of reason Bligh would have recommended him for promotion to Lieutenant when they returned to England. The only reason for the myth is that his brother Edward Christian the lawyer, another word for liar, did his best to try to see that if Fletcher was captured and returned to England to stand court marshall that he would not be hanged from the yard arm.

Others contributed to the situation and Bligh was something less than the greatest officer in the Royal Navy, but Christian and only Christian stared a mutiny. His purpose in starting the mutiny was purely to go back to the life style he found on Tahiti. It was not to redress wrongs or any other noble reason. If Fletcher Christian had been caught instead of escaping to Pitcairn Island he would have swung from the yard arm, as he should have.

That ought to get something started.

Z

Zwyram,

Couldn't agree with you more.<P.

You are right on all points.

Good post.

Anyone want to take Zwyram up on this?

Tiger Tom

Regarding zwyram’s excellent summation of Christian’s character in her message #507, there is little or nothing that I could disagree with. Regarding zwyram’s assessment of Bligh as “something less than the greatest officer in the Royal Navy,” I can agree with that also, but would go on to point to some of his weaknesses including his un-level administration of discipline particularly while the crew was at Tahiti.

Also I think Bligh was very much the creature of the 18th century. This is to be expected since that was when he lived, but in that age leadership was conceived as a matter of forcing reluctant subordinates to comply with the leaders orders rather than a partnership between the two willing groups in which each had its role and each knew its appropriate response. In this environment Bligh’s un-level playing field with its on again/off again discipline sparked with violent public tirades did indeed render him something less than a great officer. Finally Blighs inability to enforce his will because of the absence of marines sealed the fate of the mission

We still have some discussion to go before we complete Section III. We have to get the mutineers to Pitcairn Island! There we will leave them while we go on to follow Bligh to Timor and back to England. Later we will return to Pitcairn for Section VII to discuss their life on a desert Island.

To complete Section III, I have added focus questions 5, 6, and 7, which are as follows:

5. After Bligh and the loyalists departed the Bounty, what was the role of Christian and other prominent mutineers? 6. How did Pitcairn Island happen as the eventual home of the mutineers? 7. Can you think of another possible alternate to Pitcairn that might have offered the mutineers a less isolated permanent home?

Regarding the first question, it would seem to me that Christian initially was a bit bashful about assuming the role of Captain. Yet the men seemed to expect it and indeed there were no other who could do it. Later Christian seems more to relish the captain's role and at least threatened to have some of the men flogged, (Bligh resurrected). To me Christian’s positions in the weeks after the mutiny as the Bounty island hopped back to Tahiti again illustrate his weak character. It was like "a morning after" experience as he and others realized the full magnitude of their act. Lets hear your thoughts on the happenings on the Bounty after the mutiny?

Harold,

Excellent summation.

I believe that you have Christina pretty well in your sights.

It would seem that he backed into the Commander role but, like many who gain a little power, began to like it and started to take on some aspects of it.

He was, as you say, as uneven as Bligh was. He may have found that Command isn't as easy as it looks from below and that with the Privileges (sp)go a lot of Reponsibility. Something that many in Command positions never seem to learn. Responsibility first, Privilges (sp)later.

We shall see what others here have to say before I pop off too much.

Tiger Tom

Ginny,

Good to hear from you.

Looking forward to the information you develope.

Yes, it is fun. This certainly has developed into more than what we first imagined when we started this discussion.

Now, why am I not surprised that Christian's descendants thought he wasn't all bad.

Tiger Tom

Waiting, waiting.....

Ginny, did the Senior curator from the Mitchell Library answer THE question?

Begging chorus, on our knees

Its not surprising the Christian put thing to a vote after the mutiny. He had no athority from the crown or the Royal Navy so he was more or less forced to put things to vote, he gets no points for that. There is no mention of uniforms in Kennedy, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. On the second trip to Tubuai Sumner and Quintal,two of the men who had no 'wives', went ashore to find some female companionship without Christian's permission. According to Morrison's Journal, Christian went into a rage and put a pistol to the head of one of them and said "I'll let you know who is Master" and ordered them into irons. He released them the next day after they had Beg'd Pardon and promised to behave in the future. On Tubuai the natives decided that they didn't want to give up their women to the mutineers. A battle (massacre) followed the ended up with between fifty and sixty native men and six women were killed. This pretty well took care of Tubuai as a possible future home for the mutineers. The mutineers pretty well looked at the natives both male and female as chattel.

Once they got to Pitcairn, the mutineers and the native men, mostly in disputes over women, managed to kill each other with the exception of Smith (Adams). Almost every word that Adams says should be taken with several grains of salt, remember he was trying to make everybody else the bad guys on Pitcairn.

The only "history" writers that ever had much good to say about Fletcher Christian were his brother, Edward, and his decendent Glynn Christian. The rest in print and movie is fiction. Christian was a mutineer, no more no less.

All,

Women play a very important role in the Bounty Saga don't they.

Christian certainly reverted to type when he became Commander. I wonder if he saw the irony in his actions.

Tiger Tom

Now hear theis All Hands! Everyone should be on the lookout for a virus apparently from Microsoft Security. That is the address given. The text announces the availability of a fix of an Outlook Express security flaw that might enable an attachment to automatically execute.

I was suspicious and sure enough Norton caught a virus that it quarantined. So beware of any mail apparently from Microsoft Security with a subject something like "Internet Security Updates" and an attachment of an exe file named q216309 and above all keep your virus software up to date

Harold Arnold

Thank you for that information about the virus.

Harold,

Too late. I received such a notice from what was supposed to me Microsoft Security about a week or so ago. I tried to open it but couldn't Or at least I thought I couldn't. Been having all sorts of problems with my computer since.

Must have been the thing opened and the virus loded itself on to my hard drive. Unfotuntely, I didn't have my Norton Anti-virus installed at the time. Don't know how I am going to get this thing off my Hard drive. So far it has just been irritating but it my become a disaster. Don't know.

Thanks for the warning, it was just a little late for me.

Tiger Tom

One of the things I like most about the folks in this discussion group is that you are all so genteel. All of the lovely talk about women and the part that took in the saga.

I finally figured out what you all were talking about. What caused the mutiny on the Bounty was SEX. Fletcher Christian was in love or ar least in heat. The crew of the Bounty had lived with the easy morals of the Tahitians for half a year. When faced with the prospects of returning to England or returning to Tahiti a bunch of horny young sailors didn't take much leading to at least stand aside and let Christian and his hardcases commit a mutiny.

Look at what happened after the mutiny. Every squabble and fight was over women. The massacre on Tubuai was over women. The killings on Pitcairn were over women. The sailors killed on Tahiti were over women. Every decision large and small made after the mutiny was over women or the lack of women.

There were a shipload of virile young English sailors who had just gotten as taste of sexual heaven by any standard they had ever know or dreamed of. They had a chance at sexual heaven at least for a while by doing nothing and letting Christian lead a mutiny. Some of them went with Christan to Pitcain where all but one of them were killed, a few hanged, some died before the Royal Navy got there, but what the hell it was one great trip along the way. The men that followed Christian back to Tahiti had an average age of about 20. All of us older people know how much good sense a 20 year old male has when it come to the good life and SEX.

Thank you one and all for bringing this to my attention. I am really kind of slow, but once I figure it out what you all were talking about, I am not nearly as genteel as the rest of you.

Z

Zwyram,

How you do talk. Never guessed it was about (Blush) sex. Thought the guys wanted the ladies to teach them how to dance Tahitian Style. Live and learn.

BTW, are you a hemale or shemale?

Tiger Tom

The average of the mutineers that I come up with by using the ages listed in Kennedy's 'Bligh' is about 25 years old. I used the list I came up with of who I thought were mutineers, which anyone could argue with. The oldest were well into their 30's. The youngest was Peter Heywood age 15, who beat the rap. The oldest mutineer was John Mills age 39.

As to the gender question. We have cheated. My lovely wife Mary got involved with several discussion groups some time ago. When the Bounty group was announced, she said 'here's one you would like'. So piggybacked on her account, I am John Z.

John Z,

Hearty welcome.

Pleased that you are joining us in our discussion.

Don't mind me. I was aware that the problem with the whole Mutiny thing was sex. Just didn't want to come out with it that way so I said it the way I did. Meant the same thing.

It always boils down to that doesn't it, one way or the other.

Tiger Tom

I now have a copy of the Gavin Kennedy book, “Captain Bligh- The Man and His Mutinies,” Gerald Duckworth and Co, 1989. I have been reading it, picking up with the Bounty’s first departure from Tahiti. I find this book is considerably better documented than the Hough, Captain Bligh and Mr Christian, that I have read in its entirety. In this book Kennedy is quite careful to include a mention of his source or sources in his text as he is describing a particular incident. This is a departure from the footnote method used by most academic history books, but it is also quite satisfactory. I was relieved to find that so far as the part that I have read is concerned, there are no major differences in facts between Kennedy and Hough.

I think in the period after the mutiny Christian repeatedly showed his character as a weak leader. Kennedy uses the word, “inapt” several times to describe Christians leadership in connection with the several violent conflicts with the natives on Tubuai. After Christian had convinced the men to settle there, after they had returned to Tahiti for animals, supplies and women, after they had begun a fort curiously named Fort George (His Majesties loyal mutineers I suppose), they were forced to abandon the plan by their constant skirmishes with the natives. After voting to leave, Christian led his men in a farewell sortie against the natives killing over fifty and wounding scores. At that point it was needless bloodshed since they had already voted to depart. So it was back to Tahiti where most of the men went a shore and the Bounty departed with just 9 of the mutineers. There was still a shortage of women as you have mention in posts over the weekend. . Christian had decided on Pitcairn Island but had trouble finding it since it was 250 miles off from the position showed on Christian’s map.

Has anyone got an answered for the last focus question, 7. Can you think of another possible alternate to Pitcairn that might have offered the mutineers a less isolated permanent home?

Harold,

Last question of your last post.

End of a Rope.

Tiger Tom

Tom while that was not exactly what I had in mind, you do make a good point. What I was think of was what if they had sailed the bounty around the Horn, and thence north to the U.S., What would have been their reception in the newly independent Republic?

On reflection, I suppose sailing the bounty into one of the East coast ports would have risked arrest and/or their return to England. The U.S. had diplomatic relations with England and the position of the mutineers in the Bounty would have been as “Pirates.’ I suspect they would have been arrested and either returned to England or tried for piracy in the U.S. Probably their best bet would have been to scuttle the bounty at sea off a U.S. port and come a shore in a small boat where they might fade into the existing society. They would have blended in well.

Finally the Bounty probably would not have made it to the U.S. Britannia did rule the waves and Bounty would probably have run into a RN Frigate in the South Atlantic or as it passed the West Indies. Finally it was unlikely that the Bounty would have been welcome guests had they landed at the Spanish colonial ports in South or Central America. This leads me to conclude that the mutineers were wise (and lucky) in their choice of Pitcairn Island.

Anyone with further comment on the mutiny should post them now. I suggest that we move on to our next topic on Friday. I’ll try to change the heading by then. The next section, Section IV, will deal with the loyalist voyage in the launch captained by Bligh and the voyage to Timor and England. The way IV is proposed in the current heading, it is quite long , and I am now thinking I will separate out the Captain Edwards mission to arrest the mutineers making this Section V. This will increase the number of Sections from VII to VIII. In any case our next section will be IV, “Bligh After the Mutiny.”

I have been involved the last weeks as I am sure you all too, in making the tax filing date April 15th. I am now dreadfully behind in my various commitments. I apology for my less than rapid response over the past several weeks and for those that are likely to continue during the weeks to come

I just downlosded my morning E-Mail. One of the junk letters came under the subject heading, "Here's Your Chance To Fire your Boss." My thouht, as I hit the "delete" switch, was that this is the type of letter that our current Fletcher Christian reincarnations WILL ANSWER!

Harold,

Your analysis of the what the chances would have been had the Mutineers managed to sail the bounty to the U.S. is excellent.

I agree that had they been able to reach a less populated part of the coast, scuttle the Bounty and row ashore they might have easily been able to blend in with the populace since there was a fairly steady stream of immigrants even in those days. If they could have made it to the frontier they probably could have settled down with none the wiser.

I have wondered if something like that might have happened. It certainly is in the realm of possibility. Would have taken some good leadership.

Tiger Tom

Ginny,

The biography I had on Laughton got lost in transit on one of my moves from post to post.

It would seem it was not as good as the one you have. Mine concentrated more on laughton's sex life than his film career.

It did touch, lightly, on Laughton and Gable saying that they did not care for one another and did not get along. That was it. No detail.

One thing in that Biography was the claim that Laughton and Lanchester reached an accomodation in their married life: They were very good friends and had much in common. However, he had his male lovers and she had her male lovers.

I wish my biography had been better written. But then I guess I should have known by the paper stock: Pulp fiction type.

I wonder if your book mentions if Laughton did any research on the Character of Bligh or simply followed the Script version of him.

Had I been Laughton I would not have liked the Bligh in the script. I will say that Laughton did a great job of portraying Bligh as he was written by the screenwriters.

I wonder how Laughton would have done with a more sympathetic Bligh.

Thanks much for the Information.

Tiger Tom

Thank you Ginny for your report on Charles Laughton and his role with Gable in the 1935 Bounty movie.

I do not remember an actor named Frank Lloyd either. The Gable/Laughton Mutiny film was one of the first general audience movies I saw. I remember I saw it about 1939 or 40, when I was 13. It was at the suburban Highlands Theater and I saw it as a re-release as a part of a double feature Saturday kids showing. The other feature was a cowboy film. I don’t remember much from Clark Gable during the war years. Was he in the military? I remember him in a post war film called “The Hucksters.” It was maybe the first film of Deborah Kerr. Gable played an initially out of work advertising executive.who on his way to a job interview stopped at an exclusive men’s store and spent his last $35 on an exclusive designer (hand painted) tie. He got the job and spent most of the 90-minute script hating himself for the type of copy he was producing.

I did not consider Gable’s performance real great in Bounty. I thought Franchot Tone was better and of course it was Laughton who made the show.

Harold,

Yes, Gable was in the military in W.W. I.I. The Army Air Corps. Went in as an enlisted man but soon became an officer. He was a major when the war ended.

Tiger Tom

I have changed the heading and it is time to talk about Blight and his loyalist crew on their still record near 4,000-mile open boat voyage to Timor

When the over loaded launch left the Bounty it headed for nearby Tofoa. I suppose the intended to acquire a supply of food and water there before they proceeded on to wherever. What a surprise awaited them!

Initially after landing their gathering parties found but little to add to the larder in the launch. More seriously the natives began to gather and they were not friendly like the Tahitians. I think the hostile attitude was the result of three factors: (1) Kennedy says that one of the chiefs had been on the other island where a few days earlier one of the pre-mutiny confrontations had occurred.. Could this have been a factor? (2) The fact that the English found so little foods indicates to me the Economy of the Island was not as good as on Tahiti. Perhaps the Natives could ill afford to feed the crew? (3) The gradual pattern in which the Native action materialized indicates that the natives were assessing the English conditions and when they realized how helpless they were, they attacked the English for their clothing and the hardware goodies that were on the launch. In any case The English were lucky to get away. Bligh was the next to the last to get aboard the Launch it beat its way through the surf under a storm of stones thrown by the natives. John Norton, the Quartermaster, was not so lucky. His head was split open by a ston before the eyes of the crew in the launch. Kennedy observed that the loss of Norton had its positive side as he was the heaviest of the crew and his loss lessen the over load in the launch more than the loss of any other single man

What destinations options were open to the English as they departed Tofoa?

In Blighs recurring nightmare about Norton this chapter once again mentions a dictum of Marcus Aurelius which Bligh held.Nothing happens to any man whi h he has not been formed by nature to bear.

He describes this nightmare and Norton's eyes. His dream started off with a wall of bloodshot eyes staring at him. These eyes move toward him, getting larger as they close, larger until he can only see one pair. The pupils are a dull, arterial red and red tears slowly trickle for them. Tears of blood, Bligh says. " It is John Nortons face-fat, friendly and familiar."

Bligh runs and stumbles in a pool of blood adn as Norton reaches for him and Bligh slashes and slashes him into a tangle of flesh and blood and eyes. End of nightmare.

He goes on to relate the story as Norton had been pushing at the stern as Smith and Cole pulled at the oars and Elphinstone in a frenzy swung another pair into the rowlocks. I (Bligh) pushed at the stern quarter until the boat was fairly launched and moving out, then with a last heave tumbled in. Norton, still pushing at the stern, grunted as a stone thudded into his leg. The painted, demonic faces were hurling rocks and screaming and snarling. Rocks showering, splintering, bruising, smashing. God! for a musket, GD you to hell Quintal, just a musket.

An oar spintered under a chunk of rock the size of a man's head. Norton was still in the surf, shoving us out as a stone CLUB fell on his shoulder.

Bligh grabbed a cutlass, clambered to the stern to cut at Nortons assailants with a cutlass. Now this story says "I turned and slashed again at his assailant but then cutting at a cannibal hand on the gunwale I brought the blade down across Norton's fingers.. . He fell back in the surf and was dragged, dead, I think, to the shore where two natives continued pounding his head with stones while half a dozen struggled for his clothes."

No bloody wonder the fellow had nightmares.

Alf,

Bligh was a man who didn't desert his men and suffered when one of the was lost and he felt he was the cause of that loss. This differs from the general run of English Sea Officers of the day.

I still say, I would have gladly served under Bligh knowing what I have learned since we started this investigation.

Tiger Tom

I can't add much to the question of what was available to Bligh after Tofoa. I am navigationally challanged by lack of any real maps of the area. I think that theorecticly he could have sailed about 40 degrees either side of the down wind line which was almost due east. On my very limited maps the only alternative to the route he took would have been to go by way of New Caledonia. I don't know if New Caledonia was on his charts, but if it was, there is not much to be gained by going that way. The same problems exist to a small almost unarmed party in a small boat. I am pretty sure that Timor was the only place in the area that Bligh both knew about and could sail downwind to.

Bligh's open boat voyage in the launch is one of the great feats of leadership and seamanship. Just recently the voyage the Shackelton made from Elephant Island to South Georgia across the very southern part of the Atlantic has received a lot of notice. The two are interesting to compare. Bligh's voyage was about 5 times the length of Shackelton's. Shackelton's voyage was across much, much more severe conditions. Shackelton's required pinpoint navigation or certain death, while Bligh had lots of landmarks along the way. Shackelton provided the leadership on his voyage, but the seamanship and navigation were provided by the very able Captain Worsley. Bligh was stuck in a small boat with Fryer and Purcell. Both were magnificent feats that had a lot in common but were different in just as many ways.

One of the biggest differences was that Shacketon had a group of volunteers that would have followed him through hell, in fact they had already done that. Any of the less dedicated followers, and there were some, were left on Elephant Island. Bligh was stuck with what Christian and friends put in the boat with him. The other big difference was that Shackelton was the kind of leader that people would follow through hell or any other place he wanted to lead, while I think we all agree that leadership was not really Bligh's forte.

The big simality is that they were both successful. Many other sailors were put into the same type situation and were never heard from again. At least for that short peroid of their lives they were truly heroic, in the real sense of the word.

John Z

John,

Say what you will about Bligh's leadership abilities, He could not have got that boat and the men in it to its final destination without great leadership skills.

In a situation that desparate men cannot be driven. They are too close to the edge and any driving would push them over into rebellion. They had to be led, encouraged, cajoled, and occasionaly have a ramrod drove up their spines. That takes leadership of the first order.

Bligh was a leader and a good one. He was put in a situation where leadership wasn't enough. He needed a way of enforcing his orders and maintaining discipline. He needed better Officers under him and a contingent of Marines. He had neither. He did well as it was.

No commander can take into consideration a man like Christian who was unstable and an extended stay in Tahiti, unplanned to be sure, due to the fact that the Breadfruit seedlings would not be ready for a few months. Bligh was many things but fortelling the future was not one of his talents.

I don't fault Bligh's Leadership. He certainly proved it in other voyages in other circumstances which were more normal but as or more dangerous than the Bounty voyage.

Tiger Tom

I agree. I can find little to criticize in Bligh’s leadership in the open boat and much to commend. He did have a curious bunch in his crew, particularly that guy, Purcell who again refused to play as a part of the team. I’m talking in particular about the incident at Sunday Island (I think it was there) where Purcell demanded that each individual be allowed to keep the oysters and other eatables that he gathered for his own use rather than add it to the common larder. Obviously the weaker crewmembers would go hungry under such an arrangement. Bligh offered to fight Purcell with cutlasses and Purcell backed down. Previously at Restoration Island there had been a lesser but ridicules argument over the recipe for oyster stew.

Mr Fryer too was a problem but a lesser one than Purcell. On the one hand he would profess loyalty, but somehow always seemed to be agitating behind Bligh’s back.

Indeed it was an amazing voyage, with the loss of only Norton and for the successful completion Bligh must be given full credit. Of course Mr Nelson and I think one or two others died on Timor before getting a ship for England.

Tiger Tom, Betty, Harold I think we are all trying to say pretty much the same thing. I did not intend to belittle Bligh's leadership in the launch voyage to Timor. He was the ONLY leader on that voyage. The people on the launch followed him because he was the only one that could save their lives. As soon as there was a chance that they could make it without him they began to rebel again, namely Purcell and Fryer. In my opinion the only difference between Purcell and Fryer was that Purcell was openly rebelious and Fryer was sneakier about it. It was only through Bligh's leadership that he put down that minimutiny and Fryer's attempt to discredit him after they reached Timor. BUT, Shackelton lead through good times and bad. People wanted to follow Shackelton. People followed Bligh when they had no choice. Shackleton had Worsley and a loyal and dedicated crew on the launch to South Georgia. Shakleton also had the opportunity to leave the people that might have doubted him on Elephant Island. Bligh had Purcell and Fryer, and no chioce in whether or not they were with him in the launch. Which one had the tougher job? Who knows. The thing that I tried to say the first time, and didn't seem to get across, is that they were both larger than life heroes for the time that they made the voyages. If they weren't, none of us would be having this conversation beacuse all hands would have died and the stories with them.

Question: Which of the two impossible tasks would you choose if you had to be there? Would you be Bligh, with the crew he had trying to get to Timor; or Shakleton with his crew trying to get to South Georgia? Tough isn't it?

John Z

Betty,

Any compliments (backhanded or otherwise) are welcome.

One thing that is comparable with Shackleton and Bligh is that they were thrown in to the circumstances. They had NO choice but to lead and lead they did, admirably.

Who was better? I think that if either were to be put in the others position they would have still rose to the occasion and lead their men to success. The both of them were that type of person.

I wouldn't fancy being with either of them when they had to face what they did. I am an armchair adventurer. Armchair Lawyer too.

Tiger Tom

Make no mistake, I am also one of Bligh's defenders. Look at the make up of the crew. If there is any one person that stands out as a leader, as a decent human being and as a seaman it is William Bligh. Compared to any one other person on the Bounty he was a prince amoung men. The competition wasn't to tough. We had an expression where I worked, "Half of looking good is being careful who you stand next to." Certainly no one at this point, no one is a defender of Christian, or of Fryer, or of Purcell, or of any other of the crew whether they went on to Tahiti or into the launch with Bligh.

I threw out a sucker question and no one bit. Which of these men's voyages would you have chosen to try to accomplish, Bligh or Shackleton? My answer is 'neither.' I am afraid that had I been in either of them's shoes at the age they were at the time, all hands would have died. Even if I had their seamanship skills, I lack the personality to lead under that type situation. I can not imagine myself at age 33, sailing 4,000 miles of barely charted waters with a crew that was made up of at least half malcontents, and getting almost everyone there alive. However I can imagine myself at age 22 losing my head, at least temporarily, over the life that Fletcher Christian found himself in, on Tahiti. I would hope that I would have had enough character not to create a mutiny against the one man who had befriended me and tried to further my career, no matter how good life on Tahiti was. I can not imagine myself doing the hatchet job on William Bligh that Edward Christian did.

William Bligh was a hero!

John Z

That was a good question, John and I think you have come up with the only answer. In Greenwich, England, last year I saw in the Maritime Museum the Shackelton exhibit their actual clothes, etc, the photos, there is no way I would have wanted to be on that voyage, those photographs of that ship standing straight up in the ice will haunt me forever. Their CLOTHES!!! Just what you would run to the car in , it's a miracle they weren't all frozen.

Compare that to Bligh and the baked horror of the open sea, the uncertainty and the heat and scalding sun and starvation.

This is a CHOICE? haahahahahah

Nope, that's not a choice.

I'm reading a book by Preston and Childs who write scientific thrillers. This one is called Ice Limit and is about rounding Cape Horn. Are there TWO Cape Horns? Is Bligh's Cape Horn off of Chile? Off of South America? Not far from Antarctica? I am so messed up now in my geography I hardly know which way to turn but I can tell you the descriptions of this modern day tanker rounding the Cape with men in harnesses to secure them to the deck would chill your bones. I now have some knowledge of what it must have been like and to try to round it for 30 days is almost inconceivable to me. Those were brave men, there's no doubt about it, and I could not have done it.

Either one.

ginny

Ginny,,

Tinkle, Tinkle, Tinkle,

Tiger Tom

WHAT, Swabbie Tom? hahahaha Prepare the keelhaul! hahahaaha

ginny

Are there no Fletcher Christian defenders?

John Z

Ginny,

Have I been demoted? I thought I was the first mate. Now I am a Swabbie Deck Hand.

Still,

Tinkle, Tinkle, tinkle,

Unclean, Unclean

Tiger Tom

Tom, you nut, you've been at sea too long, nobody has a clue what you're tinkling about, do you realize that?

(Tom is feeling that there's something wrong with him because when he posts a million people don't post in response hwhahahaha, he fancies himself with a bell which goes tinkle (honestly!) and he should be saying "unclean," (Just in case you thought he was stir crazy, he's not). hahahahaha

Jeepers who needs Fletcher Christian when you have Tom, can you imagine TOM on the ship? hahahahaha

John, no I am no fan of Christian's, I like Bligh, I like the way he writes and expresses himself, I think Christian lost it in a moment of passion and lived to regret it, too.

Who speaks for Christian? Stand up and don't let the Phantom of the Deck (Harold will kill us) tinkle you into submission!

ginny

Zwyram,

No defenders because there is NO defense.

He mutinied against his Commander and took over one of His Majesty's Ships. Caused death among Island Natives without reason or cause.

Tiger Tom

Ginny,

I am glad you didn't use my full name. I would know then that I was really in trouble.

Tiger Tom

I nave been reading the recent posts concerning Earnest Shackleton. the early 20th century British Artic Antarctic explorer and the comparison of him and his crew and their experience in the Antarctic to the experience Bligh and the loyalists during their open boat odyssey. The truth is I know next to nothing of this explorer’s expeditions and to make up for this deficiency this afternoon turned to the Web and found the following detailed account. Click here for Page 1 of 5 pages on Earnest Shackleton.

Ginny

Cape Horn is at the very southern tip of South America. It is in Chile. Across the Drake Passage is the Antarctic Peninsula. The Drake Passage is a really wild stretch of water, especially in their winter. My wonderful wife and I had a great trip to the Antarctic Peninsula on an elderhostel trip several years ago. The weather was absolutely beautiful. The Crew refered to the passage as "Lake Drake". Friends and realtives that have made the same trip tell stories of 40 and 50 foot waves and 60 to 70 mph winds. They tell of having weather where all they could do in a modern ship was to maintain position and head into the wind until the weather abated. It is not a good place to be when the weather turns against you. Incidently the wind is always in your face when you go from the Atlantic to the Pacific, its just a question of how hard.

John Z

In the planning stage of this discussion, we spoke as if being FOR Bligh meant being AGAINST Christian....that the two names were opposite each other. What has evolved is a separate for/against for each man. In other words, the two men are not pitted against each other, but each judged against a standard of good leadership.

So, my view of the desperate behavior from Christian and his lack of leadership skills is separate from my view of questionable leadership skills of Bligh. Bligh was a good leader in an unambiguous setting...such as a crisis. His history of service after the Bounty continued to show Bounty-like trouble managing subordinates. That's from Hough. Does Kennedy concur? Or, maybe that can be answered/discussed when we get to it on the time-line.

This is an amazing thing for us to learn mid-discussion, that some of us don't have much respect for either of these men. That's a surprise to me. Just as surprising (and fun and interesting) is how differently we view Bligh!!

Betty

I agree with Betty's conclusion summarized as:

In other words, the two men are not pitted against each other, but each judged against a standard of good leadership.

Possibly among us today there is a different standard of leadership than that existing in the 18th century. I note that I tend to judge these people against a modern 21st century standard rather than their 18th century norm. I agree that this is wrong; the leadership ability of these 18th century participants should be judged against the standard of their day. Even so a judgment against today's standard is interesting and perhaps of value to us as a measure of the change occurring during the period.

I have noted in a previous post that today’s standard looks upon the relationship between leaders and subordinates as a partnership in which each has its own defined responsibilities and each is trained to carry out its responsibilities. Each group function in their sphere as highly trained professionals responsible for their assigned duties. In contrast in Bligh’s day leadership was looked upon as the process of getting a reluctant antagonistic group of subordinates to do what the leader ordered. The first and paramount inclination of subordinates all too often was to assert their independence in open conflict to the orders of the leader. The methods employed centered on physical force in the form of flogging and finally as a last resort the public execution of the habitual offenders.

How does Bligh score when measured against these standards? Against the modern standard not so good, but neither would the other leaders of his day. Against his own 18th century standard he would come out much better and some might give him very high marks. I suppose I am inclined to note some inconsistency in the way he handle discipline though taking his abilities as a whole (including his professional competence as a navigator. Etc) I would score him quite high. And how would Mr Christian be graded. I am sorry but I could not rate this officer very high by either standard

Harold,

You have laid it out very well indeed.

Bligh, considered against the background of his age and the conditions that existed at that time comes out well. Not perfect, but very well.

In today's Navy he would be at a total loss. He would have to learn everything over again except the basics of the Sea which I believe haven't changed that much.

Tiger Tom

True, Bligh did have a problem with a Fryer like subordinate later in his career. But, after Edward Christian's libel job he was something of a marked man. He was convicted by the court marshall of using bad language and repromanded and admonished to use more correct language in the future. Kennedy remarks that much of the subordinates testimony sounds just like Edward Christian's "Appendix".

He also had a problem with a mutiny as governor of Austrailia, where he walked into a bunch of unmitigated crooks that had a rum monoply going. Bligh's problem was that the crooks were the government. This according to Kennedy.

Bligh's biggest weakness as a leader was his appearent inability to take truly drastic action when only drastic action would do the job. I think if Bligh had disrated Purcell to seaman and had him flogged when he was totally insubordinate in Tasmania he would have been off to a good start. If at the same time Bligh had disrated Fryer from Master down to Master's Mate and promoted Christian to Master, with the understanding that the next time Fryer caused a problem he would be disrated to seaman and flogged, he would have been well on the way to success. Nelson would have. The problem was that if you acted decisively, you had to justify it what did when you got back to England. Kennedy describes Nelson as that kind of leader. Isn't it funny that Bligh's weakness was his inability to be harsh, and his image to the general public is that of the overly harsh, cruel Captain. Bligh's nature only allowed him to shout, cuss and bluster.

He was still far and away the best man on the Bounty. He was a somewhat weak leader when times were good but over all not a bad leader.

John Z

John Z,

Very good. You have described Bligh perfectly.

Your explanation goes a long way to understanding Blighs apparent weakness in leadership. In an age of casual Cruelty Bligh was too kind for the situation he was in on the Bounty.

Yes, isn't it Ironic that he has been portrayed as a Cruel Beast (a little of that would have gone a long way on the Bounty.) in Books and film and in real life he was not.

Thanks much, John. I have been trying to make somewhat the same points but do not have your ability.

Tiger Tom

All,

I have a new discussion, "Why do we Read?" Please drop in and tell us why you read.

Tiger Tom

I think I can agree with much of Zwyram’s assessment attributing Bligh’s leadership problems to his reluctance to take the drastic action required. Of course we must remember that on the Bounty, Bligh had no means to enforce his discipline judgments because of the absence of the usual marine contingent. As a result perhaps the most Bligh felt he could get away with was a public tirade complete with naughty words and at the most an occasional flogging. I will save further comments on Bligh’s later mutinies and later discipline problems for our section VIII discussion, when we wiil discuss his post Bounty career in details, prior to formulating our final judgments.

Today one of the major discipline no/no’s is a public emotional dressing down within the view and hearing of subordinates. Yet this was Blighs most frequent method of discipline.

Yes Tiger, I will visit your “Why We Read” discussion site, and I urge others to do so. Do feel free to post a similar announcement on the History Book Board.

Can you provide everyone with a link Tom?

Listen gang, I have in front of me an AP newspaper clipping from 1977. I found it in my Bligh Trilogy book when I ordered it. It shows a picture of a woman gardener tending to Capt. Bligh's grave. Commisioners who oversee St. Mary's Church, where the grave yard is located near London, decided the site should be used for another purpose. Preservationists mounted a campaign to save the grave and the church. Whatever happened, I wonder. They wanted to put a bloody parking lot there.

The second article is taken from the St. Joseph, MO News-Press, dated July 8, 1982. It describes a seventh generation descendant of Edward Young, the Bounty's midshipman, who hitched a ride by ship back to the tiny island of Pitcairn on a ship.

If anyone wants these articles, I will be happy to send them to you. I do not have a scanner. If you want them scanned I could send them on to Pat or Jane and I know they'd do it for us. Let me know.

Alf,

I am link challenged. You will find the discussion near the bottom of this folder.

Tiger Tom

not very current?

Here is the previously requested link to Tiger Tom's Why We Read Discussion

Harold,

Thank you for the link.

Now, why can't I do that?

Tiger tom

The in-fighting between Bligh and Fryer/Purcell continued until the end. As the launch made the Timor landfall a rather critical squabble developed over questions like exactly what of the approaching landmass that included Timor and what was other outlying islands. Bligh chooses to take a longer safer option. Fryer claimed he correctly identified the Timor land mass. The longer course followed got the launch is some of the roughest sea conditions of the voyage.

After making land fall the friction continued the entire time they were with the Dutch arranging emergency provisions and passage to England. I am really amazed at the prominence of the Dutch as an 18th Century colonial power. They already had a functioning colony in the East Indies and Timor as well as their base at Capetown. It would be another hundred years before the British would take Capetown and South Africa from them in the Boar War and a full century and a half before they would lose the East Indies with an independent Indonesia.

I am also amazed at the financial power of Blighs commission that enable him to actually purchase a small ship larger than the launch to take them on the next leg of their journey to Batavia, the Capital of the Dutch colony where they could get passage to England. The ship was named HMS Resource and its purchase and fitting out was the source of added friction between Bligh and Fryer. Fryer through his association with some junior Dutch officials almost upset the credit needed to finance the return but in the end it was accepted and the loyalists departed in HMS Resource for Batavia.

Two other points: first the tragic death of Mr Nelson. After a field trip looking for botany specimens he came down with a chill and fever and died 10 days later. The second point is that Bligh in keeping his official log was careful to omit any details that might be interpreted as favorable to Fryer. Generally this meant there is little detail included in the logs. Apparently he kept other unofficial records and of course his memory through which he later made his case against Fryer. Fryer likewise later made his case against Bligh in a similar manner.

I think that Harold hit the nail on the head about Bligh and Fryer. By the time they landed in Timor Bligh and Fryer really hated each other, and would pass up no chance to under cut the other. This continued after they returned to merry old England. Bligh should have keel hauled both Fryer and Purcell and then justified it after the fact when he returned to England. Fryer was one of the people that Edward Christian cited in his "Appendix" as a source of what a foul beast Bligh was. It is a shame that the popular "historys" of the Bounty never gave Fryer his deserved credit in all of the problems both before and after the mutiny. He was at least as sorry and individual as most of the mutineers.

John Z

All,

Isn't it funny that when this discussion first started we believed that this was between two characters. Bligh and Christian.

Now, after much time and research we find that there were many more involved who played an important part. It would seem that Bligh had more to contend with than just Christian and the Mutineers.

Fryer sounds like a real piece of work. I, to my misfortune, have run into Fryers type myself. They can cause one no end of problems.

Tiger Tom

The climate at Batavia apparently was not a healthy one for Europeans and Bligh came down ill shortly after his arrival. He was lucky making a rather quick recovery and was able to himself arrange for accommodations and finance for the crew and their return passage to England.

Others were not as lucky as Bligh. Thomas Hall, the Bounty’s cook fell “ill with the Flux.” He died 10 days later in the hospital at Batavia. In addition William Elphinstone, the other Masters Mate and Peter Linkletter, quartermaster also died at Batavia. Kennedy remarked that the hardship of the open boat voyage rendered them unable to cope with the unhealthy climate. Finally Robert Lamb who Kennedy describes as “the mutineer who changed his mind” died on the voyage home, and Thomas Ledward, the Surgeons mate was lost at sea on the return when his ship floundered. In all counting Norton and Nelson, seven of the 18 loyalists who came with Bligh in the launch never made it back to their home in England.

Bligh after he became ill was advised to leave as quickly as possible so when space for Bligh and 2 others was available he departed taking John Samuel his clerk and John Smith, his servant with him. Kennedy notes that these two had remained the most loyal to Bligh during the open boat voyage confrontations between Bligh and Fryer and Purcell. Bligh arrived back in England March 14, 1790 to begin the process of salvage of his career and reputation with the Admiralty and perhaps more importantly with his patron, Sir Joseph Banks.

I am going to be occupied both Saturday and Sunday at the institute of Texan Cultures where I do volunteer work. My work this weekend is in connection with the “Bowie Street Blues” a Jazz/Blues Music concert held on the Institute grounds which is the event closing our city's annual 10 day fiesta. I’ll be back Monday.

Meanwhile, lets hear your comments on the lot of the Bounty personnel at Batavia and their return to England. Also how did Bligh set about to repair his reputation; and what about Fryer and Purcell; what was their strategy in their defense and in the prosecution of their complaints against Bligh?

Note we will end this Section IV part of the discussion with the conclusion of the Court martial of Bligh and the Admiralty procedure against others in the crew and the reprimand of Purcell. Then toward the end of next week we can move on to Section V, “Completing the King’s Business.” This will include Bligh’s second shot at completing the Breadfruit Mission and the HMS Pandora mission to arrest the mutineers

Betty, you raise a good question. As you say, Bligh had pressing business back in England. He felt it necessary he be there to defend his career. Also it could be argued his early presense in England was necessary for the Admiralty to plan the arrest of the mutineers. As to navy tradition I do think the Captains responsibility was centered on the ship, Though the crew and any passengers were certainly a part of the ship and therefore a part of the sphere of responsibility, I guess they were not the direct focus of the captains concern. I agree that some captains might well have been the last to leave rather than the first as in Bligh's case. I also suppose that it can be argued that the Admiralty would want a full report from the captain as soon as possible in order to plan for the arrest of the mutineers.

Kennedy indicates that after Bligh became ill he was advised to leave as soon as possible. Obvious this good advise would apply to all members of the crew also, Bligh seized the opportunity to go on the first ship. Since there was only room for three Bligh choose to go, and as Kennedy points out he took his clerk and servant the two who had been the most loyal. Of course the clerk at any rate might well be necessary for the preparation of reports both en-route and for reporting to the Admiralty. He left Fryer in charge and apparently within a few months all had found space on several ships.

The character of Fryer is interesting to me. Sometimes he comes out looking rather good. The morning of the mutiny and again in his handling of the crew after Bligh left are examples. Perhaps Bligh's early at sea promotion of Christian over him was a factor that created his problems. Perhaps also he was the typical 1930's (pre Beetles, pre 1960's British invasion) American’s vision of the typical Englishman, i e, very reserve, self centered, and unfriendly and difficult to know. In this case his always looking out for his interest, may well have justified Blighs lack of faith in him. As I understand it his being in the crew was not Blighs choice.

Betty, I think that when he arranged passage home for his crew Bligh felt he had fulfilled his obligation to them. If I were in Bligh's shoes I certainly would not have stayed in Batavia one day longer than absolutely nescessary, as is proved by Elphinston and Linkletter's death by sickness. Bligh must have been elated to put some time and space between himself and Fryer and Purcell. The only two that were always sided Bilgh every time and under any conditions were the servants he took back to England with him. In reading Kennedy, I got no feeling of any great loyalty on Bligh's part for the survivors of the open launch trip. The behavior of several of the crew of the launch ceratainly didn't merit any loyalty on his part. The rest he dragged through the ordeal by force of character.

John Z

The Trio Cable Channel currently is running a series based on the Robert Graves novel, “I Claudius.” This tells the history of the Roman Empire from the death of Julius Creaser through the rise of August with the demise of the Roman republic and the establishment of a monarchy. It includes the careers of Augustus’s successors, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius and the succession of Nero. It also includes accounts of the rivals to these early emperors.

I read this book during the 1950’s and mention it here as an example of a work of historical fiction in which the author has remained virtually immune from the criticism that he altered history to suit his story. In marked contrast to the way Nordhoff & Hall in their Bounty Trilogy altered the historical record to fit their story line, Robert Graves remained exact producing a work that is a novel only in as much as he gave the historical characters dialog. The historical record remains accurate and most importantly the character (good and bad) of the individual characters remain consistent with the historical accounts

Harold,

I believe that Robert Graves is head and shoulders above Norduff and Hall. Person opinion of mine.

Tiger Tom

When Bligh reached England in mid March 1790 he realized ha had much work to do to restore his reputation. To this end he first concentrated on Sir Joseph Banks. Kennedy indicates he sent several letters. The quoted portions he gives are full of explanations pointing how successful the gathering of the breadfruit plants had been and how close the operation had come to a successful conclusion. The occurrence of the mutiny was pictured as an event that no human commander could have anticipated or planned for. I suspect there were also personal meetings although Kennedy does not actually say so. In any case Bligh seems to have had little trouble in retaining Sir Joseph’s confidence.

A second equally important event was the mandatory court martial prescribed as a matter of course for any commander who had lost a king’s ship for any reason. Kennedy says this rule still applies today and notes that the Captains of the several British Naval ships sunk during the 1982 Falkland’s War went through this required procedure. Bligh’s court convened in October 1790. The procedure called for Bligh to state under oath any complaint that he had against any of his crew. This would have been a chance to charge Fryer with the complaints outlined in his log but he did not do so. Kennedy thinks Sir Joseph may have advised against it. But Bligh did indicate the existence of complaints against Purcell. The men too had the chance to under oath make complaints against Bligh. None did,, with even Purcell passing on the opportunity.

The Court Martial seems to have speedily concluded that Christian and others had mutinously seized the ship and Bligh and his party were acquitted of responsibility for the loss of the ship. .

The Court also considered Bligh’s 6 charges against Purcell. The Court stopped short of judging the charges fully proven a judgment that would call for heavy penalties. The Court did find the charges in part proven and reprimanded him. (Sort of a dozen lashes with a wet noodle, I suppose)

This left Blighs reputation and career sufficiently intact to warrant him a presentation at Court to King George III, a small promotion, and a new command to return to the Pacific to complete his breadfruit mission.

Harold,

Naval Politics. Standard procedure to Court Martial a commander for loss of his ship. Circumstances are taken into consideration (already known) and judgement passed (already arrived at.) Usually Pro Forma if Commander to be found not guilty. Otherwise a full Court Martial that would take weeks.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom, Is the mandatory court martial of a Captain after the loss of the ship practiced in the US Navy? I had not heard of it during WW II. Maybe some Board of Inquirywould reviews the details, but a mandatory Court Martial, I did not think so?

There was one US captain convicted though of negligence in connection with the loss of his ship during WW II. It was the captain of the USS Indianapolis. This was the only US captain convicted of the loss of his ship to enemy action in wartime. This Court Martial had the unusual twist of having the Captain of the Japanese Submarine testify for the prosecution. The Captain was convicted with a career ending reprimanded leading to his suicide a few years later. This was a very controversial action, and I think a few years ago the conviction was legally reversed by joint resolution of Congress

Harold,

I was not referring to the U.S. Navy. I was referring to the British Admiralty of Bligh's day.

Of course, much depended on one's station and influence. Still, the Admiralty didn't want to waste time on a cut and dried case.

If one lost a ship due overwhelming odds that was one thing, through stupidty another and negligence a third. Blighs case was unusual in that the loss was through Mutiny but no fault of his own.

Rules called for a Court Martial but the judgement was a foregone conclusion.

As for the others, I have an idea that they were such small potato's that the Admiralty didn't want to waste the time and money to try them so it was dropped and Bligh was advised to let it go. MY Opinion, of course.

Tiger Tom

According to Kennedy, the mandatory Court Martial of the Captain of a Royal Navy ship lost for any reason is still the rule to day. He specifically says that the captains of the several guided missile ships lost to Argentine bombs in the 1960 Falkland Island war faced such a proceeding. I agree that these proceedings are largely "pro-forma" I suspect that the skipper of HMS Sheffield the first, and I believe largest, of the 3 or four units lost in the 1982 war as well as the other Captains had no problem with their defense.

The more I probe my memory I do seem to remember the U.S. rule involved a Board of Inquiry. The Skipper of the Indianapolis was then charged, tried and found guilty as I mentioned in my earlier post. This occurred just a few weeks before the end of the pacific war. The cruiser took a four torpedo spread and sank in minutes. Most of the crew succeeded in leaving the ship but many died during the several weeks they drifted in the pacific since the Navy did not know of the sinking until the floating survivors were spotted by accident by a Navy plane. The incident has some meaning to me because at the time I was on a passenger on a crowded navy transport not to far away from the action which of course was completely unknown to our ship.

Harold,

Re Indianapolis, I believe the skipper was faulted for not Zig Zagging his ship. He was not on the bridge but the orders to the duty Officer did not specify Zig Zag. That late in the war I suppose the skipper let his guard down.

Also believe that for some reason or the other the ship was under radio silence orders.

Most of the Sailors who were lost were lost to Sharks during the time they were in the water. Had they been picked up right away more of them would have survived.

I guess the crew of the ship have been trying to get the skipper exonerated for some time.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom: Continuing on the Indianapolis incident, I know of two books detailing the incident. The one I read was “All the Drowned Sailors” somewhere about 1980. I think there is a second title published in the90‘s. The argument exonerating the Captain is based on the lack of intelligence he received at Guam where he had just delivered the Atomic Bombs. He did not receive the intelligence reports of Japanese submarine activity on the course he was to take. Also since the Cruiser had absolutely no Submarine detection and attack capability he should have received some sort of destroyer escort. The transport I was on at the time had a single Destroyer Escort (DE) and two smaller anti Submarine craft.

Pushing on alone through waters it deemed safe on its way to Okinawa where it was to be an Admiral’s Flag Ship in the contemplated invasion of Japan, the ship was a sitting duck. The Submarine commander as a POW testified he did not need to use his “Kaitens” (human manned torpedoes). The sub fired four conventional torpedoes and all four hit. You are right that most of the losses were from sharks and exhaustion after the several weeks of floating the Pacific in life jackets hitched to life rafts. The book notes the evidence leading to the conclusion that the Court Marshal was a cover up of high officers at Guam who neglected to give current intelligence reports and failed to provide anti-submarine escort.

Harold,

You are right about the CYA on the part of the higher ups but the way they did it was to say that even if he didn't have the intelligence or the escort he was at fault for not having the ship Zig Zag.

Zig Zagging prevents a sub from lining up a shot. It isn't as easy as Hollywood shows it to be. Takes a good sub skipper and a good crew in addition the crude computing equipment subs carried in those days. Skipper had to estimate "angle on bow", distance to target, and other factors. If a ship was cruising on a straight line it was easy for an experienced sub capatain. If the ship was zig zagging it was very hard if not impossible to the sub captain unless he could guess a pattern the ship he was hunting was using so he could estimate when the ship would zig or zag.

If a ship was Zig Zagging it was best not to use a pattern: in other words Zig-Zag-Straight and either zig or zag and occasionaly zig-zig and whatever.

Anyway, that was what they used to get him and themselves off the hook.

Tiger Tom

I have changed the heading signaling the change to section V, "Completing the Kings business." Now for the first time we get a view of another contemporary Royal Navy Captain whose abilities and character we can compare with the now familiar (to us) Captain Bligh.. This was Captain Edward Edwards skipper of HMS Pandora sent to the Pacific to arrest the Mutineers. To me with my 20th/21st century concepts of command philosophy again something seems terribly lacking in the 18th century concepts. Why at least was Edwards unable to distinguish between those loyal crew recognized by Bligh as he departed the Bounty as being left against their will on the Bounty and the mutineers?. Would not a proper full Admiralty briefing with input from Bligh have enabled Edwards to distinguish between those held against their will and the mutineers?. This would have saved these innocent people from the trip home confined in the "Pandora's Box" prison. It would have saved the life of some after Pandora hit the reef and had to be abandoned.

I thought perhaps the phrase "Pandor's Box" meaning "a prolific source of troubles" had come into the English language from this source. Apparently this is not the case since the term seems to have come into the language several centuries earlier referring to the box the God's sent to Pandora that released a swarm of evil. None-the-less the special round confinement Captain Edwards had built on Pandora's quarterdeck to hold the prisoners too was referred to as "Pandora's Box" and the innocent as well as the guilty began the homeward journey confined therein.

The discussion is now open for your input particularly concerning your impression of Captain Edwards and how he handled his mission and how in your opinion he compares with Captain Bligh?

MOST ARE NOT AWARE THAT THE DESENDENTS ARE ALL OF THE SAME RELEGION.THEY ARE ALL SEVENT DAY ADVENTIST. YOU CAN CHECK TIS OUT ON THEIR WEB SITE.

Gavin Kennedy in the chapter in 'Bligh' of that title talks about the men left on Tahiti after Christian sailed for Pitcairn. He spends at least half of the chapter trying to prove that Morrison could not have kept a log of what went on, and that Morrison's famous log was all written after the return to England. One of Kennedy's big things seems to be to totally discredit anything and everything that Morrison wrote.

Kennedy does talk about the fact that the mutineers, loyalists and neutralists lived in small groups that were mixtures of all three groups. i.e. Mutineers Musprat and Hillbrant lived with loyalists McIntosh, Byrne and Norman. Morrison lived with the mutineer Millward. Stewart and Heywood lived together. Mutineer Thompson lived with loyalist Coleman. This does seem to give Edwards some excuse for throwing them all in together.

According to Kennedy, Edwards was obsessed with security. He was afraid that the mutineers would infect his crew with mutinous ideas. There was some conversation between the mutineers and the crew of the Pandora while the prisoners were using the head. Edwards then denied the prisoners the 'priviledge' of using the head, and from that time on had to relieve themselves in the box. The prisoners were not allowed to converse in Tahitian for fear that they might be plotting another mutiny. At the time of the sinking of the Pandora, Edwards appreared to want to realease the prisoners in small groups to prevent them from getting out of control. After the sinking on the trip to Timor the prisoners were kept in groups of two and three spread between the small boats.

Edwards was not the seaman that Bligh was as proved by the sinking of the Pandora. Edwards and his officers were very harsh in their treatment of the prisoners. Edwards was particularly harsh after the sinking of the Pandora which spelled the end of any real hope promotion. I think that Edwards was much more typical of the RN captains of his day than Bligh was.

Zwyram,

Edwards doesn't seem to be too different from people in our age who lash out at everyone around them when they make a mistake.

I have borne the brunt of a supervisor who goofed and was looking for a target to take it out on.

Edwards had the prisoners. I suppose that was fortunate for his crew.

Small people are that way.

Tiger Tom

In general I find it hard to say much good about Edwards. He did his assigned job in a somewhat ho-hum manner. He mostly went through the motions of looking for Christian. He was very concerned that his own crew might mutiny. He ran his ship up on a reef. I don't think he was half the officer that Bligh was.

John Z

Zwyram, I am inclined to agree with most of the conclusions in your recent posts. I definitely don’t think Edwards was the equal of Bligh particularly as a navigator and as a pilot controlling ships under sail under adverse conditions. Edwards as all Captains of sailing ships sailing the course Tahiti to Timor had one shot to pass the Great Barrier Reef intact, and he blew it loosing his ship and many of his men. Bligh made it, not only in the open boat, but later I think under sail. Also I suppose Bligh had earlier experience in this area as Master of the Cook flagship. Also in attempting to compare Edwards to Contemporary Royal Navy Standards as a disciplinarian and as a Ships Captain, I don’t see him scoring very high. I base this on my assessment of other Captains of the day mentioned on the several stories in a book, “Every Man Will Do His Duty,” reprinting a number of 18th century accounts concerning Royal Navy service.

You might say a bit more about Kennedy’s argument that Morrison did not keep his log while at Tahiti. It would seem he could have taken paper and necessary writing material from the Bounty. Did Kennedy point to other factors suggesting it was not written until his return to England?

My Kennedy book is “Captain Bligh, the Man and His Mutinies" (Duckworth, 1989). I just acquired it last month. Earlier I had been using Hough, “Captain Bligh and Mr Christian,” a popular history. I think this text gives quite an accurate overview account of the entire Bounty experience, as I have not noticed serious differences in fact though of course there are differences in interpretation. What Kennedy title are you using?

I also have a 1970’s reprint of the 1826 Barrows account, “The Mutiny of the Bounty.” I consider this title a near primary account because of its early publication date and particularly because of Barrows long custody of the Admiralty records. Finally I have a facsimile reprint of the log Bligh kept after leaving the Bounty

The book by Kennedy I have from the local library is "Bligh", published in England in 1978.

Kennedy says that the journal in hte Mitchell Library in Sydney is 378 folio pages written on one side only, 17 1/2 inches by 13 1/2 inches. The journal shows no sign of ever having been in water. The paper on which it is written has watermarks that prove that it was written in England after the return in 1792. The company that made the paper was John and Edward Gater, which was traded from 1790 to 1816. Morrison left with Bligh in 1787, three years before the paper was manufactured. Kennedy contends that the journal was written in 1792 from Morrison's condemned cell and later. Kennedy says that all of the prisoners belonging were confiscated upon arrest. This he assumes would mean that any journal or notes were confiscated. According to Morrison's journal he was in the water for an hour and a half after throwing away his trousers, this would make it difficult to impossible to retain a journal or even notes.

Kennedy writes a whole other chapter later in the book on Morrison's 'Journal' and 'Memorandum'. That chapter is very tough reading. The bottom line is that Kennedy's opinion is that Morrison put the whole thing together to keep from being hanged.

John Z

Zwyram,

Remember what Dr. Johnson said:

"Nothing concentrates the mind so wonderfully as the knowledge that one is to be hung in the morning."

I guess that is why Morrison was able to write up his Journal and Memorandum in Jail.

Tiger Tom

Bligh could not be sure he would be selected to lead the second breadfruit expedition, but he seems to have repaired his reputation sufficiently with Sis Joseph Banks and was awarded with the appointment. There were a number of significant changes in the new game plan. (1). The second time around there were two ships, the 420 ton, 98 foot Providence and the smaller 100 ton, 51 foot brig, Assistant. There was a strong contingent of Marines commanded by a Marine Lieutenant, 20 aboard Providence and 4 on Assistant., and (3) Bligh had obtained his promotion to Post Captain entitled to a full crew of officers and ratings.

The officer contingent included a Lieutenant Nathaniel Portlock who commanded the Assistant through most of the mission.. He had served before with Bligh on the Cook voyage. He actually had more actual Royal Navy sea experience than Bligh and proved a very competent officer even working well enough with Bligh to draw favorable written praise from the Captain. In all in addition to Portlock, there were 4 commissioned lieutenants the others being Francis Godolphin Bond, Guthre (Kennedy never gives his first name) and James Tobin and a midshipman , Matthew Flinders.. Finally there were two botanists, James Wiles and Christopher Smith and other professionals including the surgeon and a full complement of ratings.

In choosing his key subordinates, the Bligh Family/Friends Network again seems to have been the source providing at least two of the choices. Francis Godolphin Bond was a commissioned Lieutenant with considerable sea experience but he had been born in Bligh’s father’s house and got the “Francis” first name from Bligh’s father. Bligh made him first Lieutenant on the Providence, the same position Fletcher Christian had held on the Bounty. My impression of him from my reading is that he was certainly a much more competent officer than Christian. Yet as the voyage progress friction again developed between him and Bligh. The midshipman, Matthew Flinders also came from the Family/Friends network being the recommendation of Peter Heywood’s uncle. This would seem an unlikely source since at the time Bligh was seeking prosecution of hjs nephew.

In my judgment the second voyage was the result of much better planning. The result was not a frictionless/problem free mission, but in the end it was a successful one. I think this was the result of the greater resources dedicated to its completion in ships, materials and crew particularly the Marines and the officer contingent that stand out in comparison to the Bounty’s leadership.

Two of the officers, Portlock and Tobin in their later writings give us a window through which we today can get our best possible view into the Bligh character and his competitions as a navigator and Naval officer. This is available in the Garvin Kennedy books available ant most libraries today.

You're gonna leave me up in the air, on the cliff, about what Portlock and Tobin said about Bligh? You're just testing to see who's still awake, aren't you, Harold?

I'm still here, but feeling like my 7 books are, after all, not the best sources.

I remember my first reaction to Bligh's 2nd breadfruit expedition....it started as a chuckle and grew to laughter.....it sounded like overkill!! Two ships, etc.? The Royal Navy was not about to leave the outcome of this voyage to chance.

Thanks for the information from the Kennedy book, Harold. While reading it, I remembered the final outcome of the breadfruit plants...that the slaves for whom the food was intended did not like the taste and wouldn't eat it. Talk about IRONY!

Betty

A most significant even of the second breadfruit mission was Bligh’s lingering illness. Before arriving at Cape Town Bligh became seriously ill. His log includes entries reporting him distracted with headaches. The following entries are quoted from Kennedy:

Head ache all day long. I am never thoroughly clear of the Head Ache, but when these dreadful fits seize hold of me I am almost distracted; the pain I suffer when these fits seize me is beyond all description.

The serious nature of Bligh’s illness is shown by the fact that it caused Bligh to prepare for his possible death by bringing Portlock to the Providence and sending Bond to Assistant. This was a logical move since Portlock was senior and by experience was the officer to assume command in the event of Bligh’s death. The move was not received well by Bond. It was the first source of Bond’s dissatisfaction with Bligh. The surgeon, Edward Harwood wrote after the return that Bligh was not really (physically) fit for the voyage with bad health plaguing him throughout the voyage until near the end he picked up his old enthusiasm on the last lap home.

The principal friction in the officer group seems to have centered in Bond. In one of his later letters he characterized Bligh as (1) imperious, (2) wanting of modesty, (3) with an ungovernable temper, (4) envious, and jealous, and (5) with unparalleled pride. Well picky, picky, picky, we can’t all hand pick our commanding officers, now can we Lieutenant? I have got the impewaaion that Bond was looking for a soft assignment from his relative; an accommodation which Bligh with his illnes and pain had no inclination of granting.

In Kennedy’s judgment the dozen floggings during the two year, one month voyage was not excessive. The first flogging recorded in the log was a bit heavier that the dozen or at most two-dozen lashes given during the Bounty command? It involved a quartermaster who refused an order by a superior and caused an altercation. The sentence was 30 lashes, which I think was 6 more than any imposed on Bounty personnel. Another curious Bligh discipline decision involved the desertion of a seaman named Bennet . It seems this seaman had had family and public problems in England and the family had urged him to join the navyfor the voyage. He decided he did not want to return. After capture he was confined aboard his ship (Assistant) but he was not flogged. Kennedy remarked that this shows that Bligh was capable of distinguishing between desertion by human folly and desertion with criminal intent (as the 3 bounty crewmen). Possibly the age of the defendant was a factor but otherwise, I’m not too sure, the difference is so clear.

Kennedy raises another interesting difference in the reception the English received on their arrival at Tahiti in April 1791 in comparison with the Bounty reception Oct 26 1788. This time only a few canoes came out to welcome them, nothing like the fleet that had welcomed Bounty just 2 ½ years before. European visits were becoming commonplace. In fact one of the vessels that did come out was wooden boat of English manufacture obtained from a recent wreck. Another serious manifestation was the difference in the dress and appearance of the natives. Instead of the neat and clean native fabric clothing, many now were clad in old and dirty European clothing. Kennedy remarked that paradise was degenerating into an Island slum. Some of you who have followed my posts here from the beginning will remember my mention of Tahiti 110 years later when Paul Gauguin the artist arrived there in the 1890’s. Gauguin’s account of Tahiti at that time is the subject of on of his books availabe from your library or the B & N catalog: Noa Noa, by Paul Gauguin

Betty I did say a bit more about Bonds’s opinion of Bligh in my last post and I expect this will not be my last comment on the subject. You too are most welcome to add your comment on the later writings of Portlock, Bond and Tobin on Bligh’s character.

And Betty, isn’t the name “Portlock a strange one for an English sir-name? It sounds to me like a character out of a mid 20th century English novel. Perhaps Lawrence Durrell might have made his “Alexandria Quartet,” the “Alexandria Quintet” with a 5th book entitled “Portlock,” another story about a complex 20th century English expatriate in the old Egyptian city. Or perhaps W Somerset Maugham might have used the name as a character; an English planter sitting on the porch of his plantation house during the rainy season on a tropical island going mad gulping down water glasses of 100 proof scotch screaming,” The rain, the rain, will it never end! And etc.

From a sympathetic point of view, but only for a minute, I wonder how the mutiny changed Bligh, or if it did. Surely it did, at least initially. Don't you just know that this second breadfruit expedition was full of pressure and stress! He couldn't afford any mishaps. It's interesting that the only time he felt well was on the trip home, after a successful delivery of the breadfruit plants.

Betty

I have changed the heading for section VI Justice: Judicial Proceedings against Mutineers Returned to England; Executions and Pardons. We are now open for discussion on this section. The focus questions center on the question, did the defendants get a fair trial. After your reading and our previous discussion, how will YOU answer?

Did they get a fair trial? YES!!! Heywood, Morrison, Ellison, Burkitt,Millwood and Musprat were rightfully found guilty. Heywood, Morrison and Musprat did not hang, they should have. Coleman, Norman and McIntosh were specifically mentioned by Bligh as not being part of the mutiny and were correctly acquitted. Byrn, the nearly blind fiddler was also acquitted as he should have been. The only miscarriage of justice was when Heywood, Morrison and Musprat were not hanged. One thought to keep in mind, being neutral meant being guilty. Standing aside and allowing a mutiny to happen was, by the rules in effect at the time, mutiny. There was no middle ground!

John Z

Zwyram,

Being Neutral in a situation where the other party has weapons and one doesn't makes sense. I belive that Heywood yelled at bligh to remember that he was NOT part of the Mutiny but that he was helpless to do anything. I also believe that Heywood wanted to get into the Launch but was prevented from doing so by Christian and the other mutineers.

Heywood went on to a distinguised career in the Royal Navy.

Tiger Tom

One of the principal problems faced by the members of the court was the then existing procedural rule that gave them no discretion in judging the relative levels of guilt. Even idle “wait to see who wins” neutrality was the equivalent of participation. This lack of discretion applied not just to the question of guilt or innocence, but also applied to the punishment. Under these strict procedural rules any one who did not show a clear opposition at the time of the event was to be judged guilty and accessed the death penalty. Under these rules Heywood, Morrison, etc were guilty and were so judged with the death penalty the automatic result. Fortunately for them the court in obvious recognition of the conditions they were under made the recommendation for mercy, which was forthcoming within two weeks by the Kings pardon.

I see the fact that the Court actually made the mercy recommendation, that the pardons came so quickly, and all three received pardons (irrespective of their social class) as an indication of the overwhelming justice of their case.

Harold,

Agree with your asessment. I would think that perhaps most of that had been worked out before the trial.

I too think that Justice was served.

Tiger Tom

According to Kennedy, Purcell said that Heywood was on deck with a cutlas in his hand. Who would ever be a more reliable witness than Bligh's cross to bear, Purcell. Hayward testified that he told Heywood to get into the boat with the rest of the loyalists, which he chose not to do. Hallet said, 'Captain Bligh said something to him, but what I did not hear, upon which he laughed, turned around and walked away.' Heywood came from a family with a lot of political clout within the Royal Navy.

Morrison took advantage of his time in jail before the trial to write a log book that he had supposedly been keeping throughout the journey. Morrison claimed the reason he didn't get into the boat was that it was already overloaded. Morrison invented a lot of things to keep from hanging.

Musprat had the slickest lawyer of them all. His lawyer asked the court to accquit Norman and Byrne so that he could call them as defense witnesses. When they were tried with the rest of the mutineers they were not available to testify on Musprat's behalf. When they were accquitted, Musprat's lawyer claimed that if they had been allowed to testify his client would have been accquited as well.

If the court martial had taken place when Bligh was in the country, Heywood, Morrison and Musprat would all have hanged.

John Z

Betty

I agree with you on both counts. Bligh was not a leader that people would die for. He had done little to inspire loyalty in the crew. That was probably the norm for that time. Very few leaders like Nelson, Wellington, Washington or Napoleon that truly inspired loyalty came along then or now.

The crew knew that they were subject to hanging for not resisting the mutiny. They had the articles of war read to them on a regular basis. Except for those specifically mentioned by Bligh they were guilty, and should have hanged.

John Z

Betty, Zwyram,

Pays your money takes your choice.

I have read conflicting accounts. Seems that there are some 2,000 books written on the Bounty Saga. Most authors, that I have read, have taken a side. Many have become enamored with one or more of the Characters in the Mutiny. All of them have put their own spin on the story.

With some authors facts were dropped or ignored and other "Facts" were manufactured. Some Authors did both.

That being said, What little real history that has been found and published is all we really have to go on.

Heywood, after the mutiny and trial, had a long and distinguised Career in the Royal Navy. I believe that he Retired as a full Captain. Not an Admiral but one step below. Apparently his fitness reports were laudetory (sp) and that he impressed his superiors with his ability and courage.

How involved was he in the Mutiny. I have read that he was innocent of any involvement in it. Others have read otherwise. Who knows.

Same goes for Bligh. Who you believe dictates your opinion of him. I am in his corner and have been from the git go.

Tiger Tom

I admire your loyalty Tom. I do think Bligh would have appreciated your allegiance. He was an officer and duty and devotion counts for a great deal.

Perhaps Heywood’s age was a factor that led the Court to recommend the pardon in his case. Was he not still 16 when the mutiny occurred? It would certainly be a factor today so far as the death penalty was concerned, even here in Texas. Also a good lawyer may well have saved Musprat’s life. And Morrison, did he have a lawyer arguing for him? Kennedy judges him a good jailhouse lawyer. and if he argued his case he certainly was a good one and a fortunate one also. In any case from my 21st century viewpoint, I have absolutely no trouble with the pardon granted Heywood because of his age and considering the strict rule under which the court had no discretion to judge degrees of guilt, I have no problem regarding the pardon going to Morrison and Musprat.

My conclusions regarding the justice of the trial are that the members of the Court seem to have taken their duties very seriously. Though modern concepts such as “Due Process of Law” and “the Equal Protection of the Law” had not yet emerged there was a common law concept known as “the Law of the Land,” that in the 19th century became the common law basis of the “Due Process” and Equal Protection Clauses of our 14rh amendment.

I think we see the “Law of the Land” concept operating here. Under this concept a legal proceeding must hear before it condemns, and acts only after inquiry and renders judgment only after trial. In other words every citizen holds his life, liberty, and property under the protection of the of the general rules that govern society, i.e. the law, and can not be deprived save through fair hearing and trial. Here the court seems to have acted under well-defined procedural rules, honestly heard the defense of the defendants, and rendered its judgment based on the charge and defense presented to it. This to me gives it the essence of a fair trial

Harold

I couldn't argee with you more. By 21st century rules the court did exactly the right thing. By 18th century rules, if Bligh had been there to testify, they would have all hanged. They got off by way of family connections, or a good lawyer, or good sealawyering (possibly not a word). All of which by the rules of the game in effect at the time would have been overruled by Bligh's direct testimony that they had been mutineers.

Isn't it fun to have 200 years of history for perspective. I have gotten so into reading about these people that I have been able to put myself into their timeframe. So I guess it all depends on which "fair trial" we are talking about, then or now. The court seems to be ahead of it's time with the clemancy that it showed, or maybe I don't appreciate that the sense of justice was more prevalent that I had been lead to believe. My sense of justice of those times goes back the the stories we were taught in high school about hanging pick-pockets. I find this to be hard to reconcile with a time when a sailor or soldier could receive 100 lashes for a petty crime.

John Z

I have been just sitting, listening and learning. Something of interest has been emailed to me just now, and I thought I would post it here.

THE BOUNTY 1984 movie will be on the History channel on Sat., May 25th. - Check your TV guide. It is 3 hours long.

Before I change the heading to move on to the next subject, I want to comment on the officers who served on the Court martial. There were a total of nine distinguished Admirals and Captains led by Admiral Lord Hood Other members of the court included Sir Andrew Snape Hammond, Admiral Sir John Colpoys. Sir Roger Curtis, Captain John Thomas Duckworth, Captain John Nicholson Inglefield, Captain John Knight, Captain Albemarle Bertie, and Sir Richard Goodwin Keats. It is interesting to note that four of these officers were involved in the later April, 1797 Spithead general mutiny of the fleet, the mother of all naval mutinies in its magnitude. These officers included Colpoys, Curtis, Duckworth, and Keats. All four of these officers were put a shore under the terms of the compromise that ended the mutiny with a royal pardon for the mutineers, a pay increase, and better conditions for sailors. Click the following link: Red letter Days- The Spithead Mutiny of 1797

A month later in May 1797 another mutiny broke out involving one of the Bounty Court Martial officers. This was the Nore Mutiny in which Captain John Knight having won the respect and confidence of the mutineers served as a go between during negotiations. Captain Knigh was also a defense witness at the trial of Richard Parker the leader of the mutiny. At this trial Parker and 18 others were found guilty and quickly hanged. Click The Noir Mutiny of May 1707

Another member of the Court, Captain Albemarle Bertie was related by marriage to the Peter Heywood family. During the trial he actually provided money to Heywood while he was in custody aboard the Hector, and his wife corresponded with Heywood’s mother during the trial with letters assuring her that no harm would come to Heywood. By modern standards this relationship would certainly disqualify this officer for service on the court.

WOW, Harold!! What a triumph for the sailors! I'd never heard of the Spithead mutiny, but what an incredible story....and cool article explaining the context of rebellion in the air. I don't think I realized just how common mutinies were in the Royal Navy.

Betty

Harold,

Re Heywood.

It would seem that the fix was in for Heywood.

Not too uncommon in that day and age where connections and station were everything.

I recall the Spithead Mutiny. It helped the common sailor but not that much, most of it was commestic.

Tiger Tom

Betty, you are right the Spithead results were a victory for the sailors. The admiralty had no other choice considering the magnitude of the general mutiny. After all their was a war in progress and the ships were needed to fight the French. I think the most significant effect was the "putting a shore" some 100 high ranking officers including Admiral Sir John Colpoys. I wonder if they remained a shore?

Tiger Tom is also correct in noting that not much of real subsistence was gained. This fact is illistrated by the Nore mutiny comming just one month later. This event much more confined was negotiated but, but no concessions were made and in the end the mutineers gave up with some 19 paying with their lives.

I have changed the heading to move our discussion to Part VI The Fate of the Pitcairn Settlement.

I’ll jump in and answer my first question. The cause of the miserable failure of the Pitcairn settlement was simply, Sexual Tension that cumulated at the first early happening of a triggering event in, using Kennedy’s words, “a dreadful catalog of racism, betrayal and murder.” If during the open boat voyage of the loyalist to Timor we saw “Bligh at his best,” at the Pitcairn settlement we surely see the mutineers “at their worst.“

The triggering event was the death of one or the Tahitian wives of one of the mutineers. She suffered an accidental fall from the cliff. The mutineer left the widower demanded that one of the 4 women left for the Tahitian men, be appropriated for him. Christian finally agreed and led an armed party of mutineers to take the woman.

The result was that as we see there was another darker side to the Tahitian. They could be very cold-blooded killers and this time the men attacked the English when they were separated and not expecting it. Christian was one of the first, killed when he was surprised working in his yams field. After counter attack the Tahitian men were also all dead and by October 1793 there were only four mutineers (Young, McKoy, Quintal, and Adams, ten Tahitian women, and the half-breed children left alive. It was a most miserable beginning for the new settlement.

Harold,

Don't you think that Justice may have been served a bit on the Island. After all, the women played no small part,indirectly, in the Mutiny.

Tiger Tom

What happened on Pitcairn was about what should be expected given the cast of characters. None of them had any regard for anyone else or they would not have committed the mutiny. They, including Fletcher Christian, were a pretty sorry lot. After reading Kennedy's account I would take anything that Adams said with a whole handful of salt, not just a grain. One thing to keep in mind is that out of this group of murderers and cut-throats he was the only one tough enough or cunning enough to survive. Any story that he told may have approached the truth but it was surely biased to put him in the best possible light. The only logical way for the group to end up was to have one and only one of the mutineers left alive and none of the Tahitian males.

John Z

John Z and all, you know when I read the Kennedy account of the Pitcairn settlement what came to my mind was the CBS Survivor TV series. Maybe I don't know enough about the series to judge seeing that I have never watched a single episode and certainly never an entire series, yet based on the jokes and references made by Leno and Letterman, I can’t help but picture the million dollar winner as John Adams. Well he never got the million dollars, but he certainly was THE SURVIVOR. There always seems to be one you know, arguably even at Thermopylae and the Alamo!

I don't see why the Captains of the two British Frigates that interviewed John Adams at Pitcairn in 1814 didn't arrest him and return him for trial?

Harold

I have never understood that either. He certainly was one of the mutineers and by all rules in place at the time should have been returned to England to be tried and hanged. Maybe he was an even better 'Survivor' than we thought. It is interesting to put him in the same frame as the TV show, that I never watched either.

John Z

My only thought about the missed arrests on Pitcairn is that so much time had passed that the British captains may have questioned the status of the notorious mutiny case. With no word, the individuals were certainly declared dead by their relatives and, at the least, the Whitehall file may have been finally relegated to inactive status. It's even possible that the two British Navy captains had been so young at the time of the mutiny that it didn't ring much of a bell. Probably not, but remember that the Bounty fiasco went in and out of vogue of importance, of gossip, that is.

Betty

I feel that Christian made the biggest mistake when he divided the group upon reaching Pitcairn Island. He said "the island is too small" and ordered Minarii and Moetua to bear off and climb the main ridge. He and Maimiti chose their own spot to suit themselves.

The second error was allowing the liquor.

Alf Your posting assumes that Christian was in charge of things after they landed on Pitcairn. From my reading of Kennedy I got the feeling that it was somewhere between a democracy (with only the whites having any power) and anarchy, leaning toward anarchy. I question that Christian had the power to control the situation, especially the making of alcohol. This was the perfect receipe for chaos. Sailors, women (but not enough to go around), alcohol and guns make a situation ripe for disaster. This was 'survivor' for keeps.

John Z

I agree completely with John Z's conclusion that Christian had no real power to govern the settlement. While they were still at sea on the Bounty Christian had more power because he was (Probably) necessary to navigate the ship. Once on Pitcairn with the Bounty burned, he was no longer really necessary. What with the "Me First!" outlook of the Europeans and their ethnic superior attitude, I think anarchy" is the best term to apply to the situation at the time of the native uprising.

I’m not really competent to discuss my last focus question regarding the Coeridge, “Rime of the Ancient Marnier” connection to the Bounty mutiny. Frankly I never did like that poem; what with verbiage like, “water, water everywhere, the very boards did shrink, water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink,” it always depressed me no end.

However, Kennedy raises the interesting thought that Coleridge was writing the poem as an allegory for the Bounty mutiny and Fletcher Christians return to England. It seems several prominent authorities have suggested this interpretation of the poem. William Wordsworth had suggested the idea it seems to Coleridge during a 1997 walking tour. Coleridge supposedly immediately wrote the poem before the tour ended.

Well, be that as it may, the rumors did circulate during the first decades of the 19th century that Christian had been seen in England. The most notable of these was by none other than Peter Heywood about 1809. Captain Heywood saw a Christian look alike on the Fore-Street, Plymouth Dock. From the Barrow account he seemed quite sure it was Christian and pursued the man who ran off and escaped further interrogation. Barrow does not tell us how foggy that dock may have been, or how much rum the Captain had imbibed.

Considering all the evidence in its entirety including that available from the South Pacific, how Christian left Tahiti for the last time on the Bounty, how the Bounty was destroyed at Pitcairn stranding all of its people, I find it rather easy to dismiss as rumor the reports of Christian’s reappearance. I easily accept the theory that he died in his yam field on Pitcairn.

The linkage from 'The Rime of the Ancient Mariner' to the mutiny of the Bounty totally escapes me, even after reading Kennedy. He really stretched to make linkages that are way beyond my reach.

Fletcher Christians return to England is what we would today call an urban legend. To my thinking,it is in the same catagory with Elvis sightings. Don't get me wrong, Elvis may have been sighted right here in Chattanooga, but I don't think so. I don't think that Fletcher Christain ever returned to England either.

John Z

Zwyram,

I agree with you. It sounds like an Urban Legend. Like of them it would take on a life of its own with the passing of time.

I also agree with Harold: Christian died on the Island in his Yam Patch.

Tiger Tom

I have just changed the heading for our conclusion. This included the streamlining of the last section leaving out the rumored return of Christian to England that we discussed in the last section and some other points that I think we have already hit upon sufficiently. For our concluding focus I suggest concentrating on the four areas listed in the heading, (1) Blighs post Bounty Naval Career, (2) His further career up’s and down’s in England, (3) his troubled term as governor of New South Wales and (4 his final days and our concluding assessment of his character and career. For now lets hear your comments on the first three of these areas and then toward the end of the week we can all add our final conclusions on Bligh, his character and career and close and archive the discussion.

Does anyone have an answer to the first focus question, How did the phrase, "through a blind eye" come into the English Language?

Harold, are you asking about the phrase, "to TURN a blind eye"?

In 1801, during the Battle of Copenhagen, Admiral Nelson deliberately held his telescope to his blind eye, in order not to see the flag signal from the commander to stop the bombardment. He won. Turning a blind eye means to ignore intentionally.

Betty

Betty, I do love that story and I understand the phrase did come into the language from that source.

Our Captain Bligh figured prominently in the Battle of Copenhagen. There Admiral Hyde Parker, senior admiral commanding the British force accepted Nelsons plan under which Nelson's squadron was to attack the Danish fleet and harbor defenses at Copenhagen. Captain Bligh in command of a Ship of the Line was Nelsons number 2. The Nelson squadron entered the harbor taking and giving heavy fire. Several of the British ships ran aground. It was Admiral Parker who from his position outside the harbor hoisted the signal flag , number 39, the signal for Nelson to disengage and withdraw. When the presence of the signal was called to Nelsons attention it is said he put his telescope to his blind eye, saying, he didn’t see it. Bligh’s expertise as a handler of large sailing ships enabled his ship to play a key role in the operation. Though Bligh’s ship suffered heavy causalities Bligh was later cited by Nelson for his role on making the victory possible.

Would it be possible today for a career naval officer with many years experience as Captain of survey ships or transport/cargo vessels to suddenly be assigned to command a guided missile destroyer or nuclear aircraft carrier? I doubt it, yet isn’t this what Bligh did, jumping from the Bounty and the Providence to warships including 74 gun ships of the line the dreadnaught of the time? Granted the technological difference was nowhere near as great in the 18th century, but Bligh had had no previous experience with the sailing of such large ships and most certainly he had no experience with gunnery operations and battle strategy. How was it possible for him to successfully command such ships?

Previously I have referred to the open boat voyage to Timor as “Bligh’s finest hour.” Do you think perhaps, I may have been a bit premature in the making of this Judgment?

Harold,

I believe that Bligh was one of the outstanding Officers of the British Navy of his day.

He studied under some of the best, including Cook.

I am not surprised that he was able to command a ship of Line, keeping in mind that, for once, he had able junior officers under him and a well trained crew.

Tiger Tom

Harold and Tiger Tom

Preferencing this with my firm belief that of the characters in the story we have been following, Bligh comes off better than anyone else, I have a lot of trouble agreeing that Bligh was one of the outstanding Royal Navy officers of his time. There were a lot of officers that were much worse, but he was far from the best. If you were to use today's grading system, he would probably grade out as a C+ or a B-. He never had that wonderful ability to inspire men that officers that would make A's had and have throughout time. Can anyone imagine Bligh inspiring men the way that Nelson or Wellington did? The outstanding military leaders that come to mind in our country are men like Washington, Lee, Patton, McArthur(sp?) and the others, compare Bligh to them. We had an expression where I worked that "Half of looking good is being careful who you stand next to". Compared to all of the others involved in the Bounty saga, Bligh looks like a giant. Compared to his contemporaries as a naval officer he was hardly more than run of the mill. He did his job, and he did it adequately and competently, but never outstandingly.

Don't get me wrong, I am still a fan of Bligh.

John Z

We've looked closely at only three sailors in the Royal Navy's ships of the line....Christian, Bligh and the commander of the Pandora. To say that Bligh outshines the other two isn't saying much. To say that his technical navigational skills were superb and that he was proficient as a mapmaker does not address his skills as a commander of men.

The open boat voyage to Timor suggests Bligh was at his best in an unambiguous situation.....when the goal was clear to all and when Bligh's technical skills were critical to a successful outcome. No question, he deserves enormous praise for this amazing voyage.

The books quoted throughout the discussion document Bligh's troubled naval career; the Bounty fiasco was not the only time his leadership skills were called into question. Since we haven't studied the British navy of the era, we can't really say how he compares to the average ship commander. We can only say he had a career full of disputes.

Betty

Betty, Zwyram,

Bligh's "Problems" were that when he was not given proper backing and proper "Tools" he came up short:

In Australia he was sent out on an impossible mission. Alone, he was to go out and repair a situation that the Authorities in England knew existed. That the commander and the troops in Australia were in essence in rebellion against the Government in England. Bligh had nothing to work with except his written authority. He was thousands of miles from England, alone and against a large armed troop that obeyed their commander. Bligh tried his best, but he had nothing to back him. Had he been sent out with an armed force to take control he would not have been arrested and held for as long as he was.

Again, he was exonerated when he got back to England and the rebelious commander was cashiered.

Bligh's problem was that he was expected to do too much with too little.

When he had adequate conditions he performed very well.

Cook and Nelson both parised him and they were men very sparing of praise.

Considering that Bligh did not come from very high on the Social ladder and did not have that many connections he finished his career as an Admiral and I believe Knighted.

A so-so officer would not have been able to achieve those things.

Tiger Tom