This is a delightful book about an interesting early French immigrant to American and his unique life’s work studying American birds and in the process becoming an American. Everyone is invited to join this discussion. Just make a post below indicating your interest and join us here Nov 1st.

If you happen to be a bird lover, or enjoy early American history and stories about forging life in the west, are interested in a moving story of love and family devotion, or just feel like reading a wonderful biography, please join us Nov. 1st.

We will explore the life of John James Audubon, a handsome, charming, volatile, ambitious, and extraordinarily energetic French emigre who arrived in America just as Lewis and Clark were preparing for their great expedition. The author's vivid language and Audubon’s own glorious bird illustrations create a very special book.

Harold and I look forward to this journey with you!

Marni

I'm definitely in! Wild horses couldn't drag me away from this discussion. Unfortunately, my grandchildren could. I'll be off visiting then from October 28 through November 7, so may miss the first week. But I'll jump in with both feet both before and after.

My love affair with birds started 38 years ago, when I looked out the window and saw a red, white and black bird climbing up a tree trunk. "What's that?". I had to know. I rushed to the library, and there was a book with my bird (a red-bellied woodpecker) on the cover.

That did it! I've been in love with birds ever since. Some of the best moments of my life have been spent with birds (and a few less good, like the time I almost got arrested, because a policeman thought my actions were "suspicious").

The actions of bird lovers are suspicious, if not down-right crazy!! I can't believe I've never read a biography of THE American bird-lover Audubon (you can always tell a bird lover -- they know how to spell Audubon). If he doesn't get in trouble at least once, I'll be surprised.

I'm delighted that Harold, whose pictures light up the birdwatching discussion, and Marni, who lights up any discussion she's in, are leading us. Lead on!!

Real good JoanK. You'll be back for 5 out of the 6 six weeks and that will be fine. Ok, who els out there wants to discuss Audubon We will need 3 or 4 more to make this discussion. I certainly agreethat it is Marni who will really make this discussion.

Welcome, JoanK! I'm so glad you're joining us. I enjoy your comments in other book discussions very much. Aren't woodpeckers so much fun!! Some people say they can't stand the noise, but I get a chuckle out of it. You're so lucky to have seen a red-bellied woodpecker. I never have - just a downy and one other - of course, I can't think of the name off the top of my head. I have to check my bird book.

Suspicious actions of bird lovers - so funny! Bird lovers do show great passion, I think. We'll miss you when you visit your grandchildren, but please jump right into the discussion when you return.

Marni

I love birds:) his paintings are beautiful! Will join you can not get this book:(

Welcome, bluebird24! It's good to have you aboard. If you can't purchase the book, you might find it at the library. That's where I first found it this past spring, read it, and loved it. It's just in hardback now, but it is a very beautiful edition, I must say, because of the beautiful illustrations.

Marni

I love birds too. My knowledge is limited. I can recognize a robin and a cardinal. I sure would like to learn the names and habits of the other birds. I also would like to know about John James Audubon's life.

Marni made a clickable to this discussion over at the discussion of "Shadow of the Wind."

YEAH, HATS: we'll crawl through the woods together (in our living rooms).

Welcome, Hats! I'm so glad you joined us! Sounds like you know as much about birds as I do. I'll admit, I know what American goldfinches look like, too, because a trillion of them adorn my thistle feeder every summer. They're so beautiful.

I originally read the book to read Audubon's biography. You don't have to know a single thing about birds to enjoy the book tremendously. And, yes, in addition we will find out some fascinating things about birds!

Joan, you're right! We will be crawling through the woods in the wilds hunting for birds with Audubon. We'll even find some that are extinct!

Marni

As Marni said, this book is about birds, and it's also a socal histry too. I also know next to nothing about birds, but sure love to observe them and photograph them. Yes, do get the book and join us Nov 1st.

Hello Marnie and Harold! I'm hoping I can join in this discussion but I looked at the book again today at the Library and it has such fine and small print. My recent visit to the opthmalogist went something like this:

Why are here?

To get my cataracts removed as I was told about 18 months they were ready for surgery.

But what is your complaint?

I cannot read fine print and it is blurry.

That is not a valid complaint - you can get #2 reading glasses for your problem.

What is a valid complaint?

When driving at night, you see halos around headlights.

But I don't drive at night!

We'll call you in six months for another appt.

Do you see my dilemma? I read large print books for the most part unless the print is large and bold. OH! (big sigh)

How infuriating! I hope your doctor gets the same runaround one day!! Meenwhile, BOOs to him.

Join us anyway, and we'll discuss the pictures. They are a course in themselves!!

.Apparently what the Doctor is telling you is that your cataracts are not yet ripe for surgery, and he expects it will be another 18 months before they can be removed. In my case even when my cataracts were ready to be removed they remained unusually clear and I was able to read fine for another four years until they darkened necessitating my last winter’s surgery.

We would sure like to have you, but it looks like maybe you will have to sit this one out. But if this discussion makes you will be welcome to follow the discussion on line and make comments, ask questions, and participate that way.

It has come to my attention that Amazon.com is offering John James Audubon- The Making of an American at a significantly lower cost. Click Here for information and purchase

Hi, Ella! Your eye doctor sounds so annoying. That's a shame you won't be able to see this beautiful book well. I don't see it anywhere in large print yet. Maybe someday. Please feel free to join our discussion even if you are unable to read the book.

My mother had cataract surgery on one eye just this morning. I'm going to take her to the doctor for follow-up tomorrow. It's her 2nd eye to be done. It really is amazing what they can do so easily today. She didn't feel any pain at all and it only took about 12 minutes.

Marni

Being an avid birder all my life, I'll try to join you, after that nice introduction by you DL's!

Latin classes have been taking a lot of time this fall, but I ought to try to slip in here from time to time.
I've ordered the book, and I already have a copy of Audubon's bird prints (bought perhaps 30 years ago).
Do others posters here know what those prints are like? They're nothing like the illustrations in Peterson or other modern bird guides. More on this when the discussion starts ...
Until then ... identify those feathered friends outside your window!

Ella --- Go to a different Dr. My cataracts were not all that bad. I did see some halos around lights at night, but nothing that dimmed my vision. Colors were still fairly vivid. I now use glasses only for reading and the computer. When the Dr. gave me a copy of the prescription, I went to he drug store and bought 3 more pair to put in each room where I would need they.

Welcome to the discussion. We hope you can be an active poster. I know that Audubon’s Birds of North America were first published in Edinburgh in the late 1820's. He went to England (Liverpool and Manchester) in 1826 where he made preliminary contacts and arrangements. He then went on to Edinburgh by stage (a three day trip) where the printing was done.

As I understand the process each picture was engraved, printed on paper, and hand colored by a colorist and sold to the elite by subscription. Today they are often bound in books in various size formats printed by modern methods sometimes quite reasonably priced. I have such a volume that I bought on sale at under $20.00. Like you say, Audubon’s unique style is nothing like the photo reproductions in modern Bird books.

Incidentally I have been calling the publication "The Birds of North America.” Somewhere here on Senior's Net I have seen others calling it "The Birds of America." Which do you suppose is correct?

YEAH, MIPPY. I'm trying to balance Latin too. But even Latin can't keep me away from a chance like this.

Francy posted (in Mystery Stories of all places) a link to a live camera at a waterhole in Botswana. It's the middle of the night there now, but I'll keep checking it. There are also video highlight films.

WILDCAM

Birds of North America
would be the likely title.

Have you ever seen the Peterson: Birds of Mexico? Exotic!
I don't own that one, but looked into it in a bookstore.
I suppose there is always time for one more book group!

Welcome, Mippy! This is wonderful having an avid birder join our group. I hope you can participate often. I'm taking the Latin 101 this semester - first time I ever took Latin. It does take some time, but I'm loving it! How big are your Audubon prints? The prints in Audubon's book were very large.

Here's a bit of trivia about Audubon's The Birds of America:

It is the largest book in the Library of Congress, containing many life-size illustrations of birds. The book is 39.37" (1 meter) high, with pages more than three feet long by two feet wide!!

I checked on the title. It is The Birds of America.

--------------------------------------

JoanK: I see you're a Latin student, too. There are a lot of us roaming about on Seniornet!! That's a great livecam spot. I'm looking forward to viewing it in daylight.

patwest: I just took my mom to the doctor yesterday after her cataract surgery. She's good as gold. The operation just took 12 minutes and her eye is not sore at all. She can see fine. I can't get over what they can do these days.

Marni

and hope to join in your discussions in November. Is there a limtied amount of time scheduled for the discussion - weeks, months, years ?? TIC, (that's tongueincheek)

Jean

Thank you for your question regarding the schedule. Marni and I have planned a 6-week schedule beginning Nov 1st that will conclude the discussion about Dec 15th well before Xmas. A schedule link will appear in the heading soon giving details for each week. Though the number of pages will vary slightly week to week they will average something like 73 pages a week.

Welcome, mabel1015j!! We're so glad to have you join our discussion! I got the book originally from my local library, too; then I bought my own copy so that I could re-read it and spend time with it for our discussion. It's a wonderful book!

Marni

Marni ~ just wandered in here after a few days, to see your note.
Wait until you can read all the Latin bird names and translate them!
I've seen you working hard in the Latin classroom, as I'm one of the auxilia (T.A.'s) and I hope
you and I will, also, get to know each other even better in here!

My book of Audubon prints is medium size, and very old. It might have been a college graduation
gift ... cannot remember.

post scriptum (showing off) -- I've just started the book, and
the 6-week plan sounds just right!

Hi, Mippy! I'm sorry; I didn't recognize that you were one of the auxilias for Latin. You must really know your stuff! Yes, I have been working hard because it's definitely going to have me stymied soon with all of those word endings. Hope my old brain can remember it all. At this point I can't even imagine remembering Latin bird names!! hahaha! Well, this is cool. We'll definitely get to know each other even better here!

You're lucky to have the book of Audubon prints. Many people framed the prints from Audubon's The Birds of America. I saw some of the large prints for the first time when I toured the Harkness Estate mansion in New London, CT, many years ago. It wasn't really until I read the Rhodes biography of Audubon that I realized what I had seen.

I'm glad the 6-week plan sounds right for you. I've got to get cracking re-reading the book!

Marni

Marni ~ Hi, back to you.
I'm supposed to be monitoring Latin 101 classes today, but
here I am, in books, instead.

Could we do a little pre-discussion talk on favorite birds and their names?
if you great DLs don't mind:

Galinule is one of my favorites; that's the Latin for "chicken";
the Purple Galinule, occurring in S. FL, is a water bird which is more like a duck than a chicken; they are quite beautiful and are friendly to approach if one is quiet. I'll have to find a photo site for links some other day. IN EDIT: Just spent 20 minutes, can't find the site with photos of all common birds in U.S. ... will look tonight!

Hi, Mippy! I'm having galinule for dinner!

Harold and I are providing a Web Resources link on our final header which will replace the current header shortly. Included in our Resource list is the online version of Audubon's The Birds of America. And guess what. I found his painting of the purple galinule there!! Here's the link to it below. Hope this works. It IS a beautiful bird....but it has big feet!! Nope, it only gets you to the online book and then you have to enter and scan the list of bird plates to find yours.

http://www.audubon.org/bird/BoA/BOA_index.html

My favorite bird is the American goldfinch. Do you know its name in Latin? I just love these little sweeties. A jillion of them visit my thistle feeder every spring and summer. They are just the most beautiful birds, esp. the males with their bright vivid yellow and black caps. I love most the little squeaky peeps they make. It almost sounds like "boing." They do manage to make a mess, though. But, they're brave little things. Once they get used to me sitting on the deck, they come on down from the birch tree right in front of me.

In the online Audubon book, the picture of the American goldfinch doesn't look yellow - it looks more orange. The colors aren't the same as in the hardback version.

Here is your purple galinule, Mippy

PURPLE GALINULE

That's a great idea -- I love to talk about birds. The only trouble is that my favorite is the one I'm looking at at the minute.

I love goldfinches, too. I love the way they fly near their nest. In a circle, but up and down like a roller coaster.

Unfortunately, I can't see purple galinules where I live. But if I HAVE to have a favorite, it might be the indigo bunting. I love the fact that they look such a beautiful blue, but they aren't blue at all. They are black, and the blue we see is the sun reflecting off their irredesccent feathers. When they hide in the deep leaves, they turn black, and seem to disappear.

I once wrote a poem about it. I'm no poet, but if you promise not to laugh, I'll print it.

Blue
  

I am like  
The blue bunting  
That lives in my yard.
 

When he is in the sun  
He is blue.  
THAT blue!  
The blue you always  
Wanted to be.  
The blue of the jewel  
That hides in your heart.
 

But when he goes  
Into the shadow,  
He turns  
Black

Click Here for a site with some 600 Bird pictures (Apparently by Audubon).

I note that the Audubon color of the Black-Headed Grosbeak is quite different from the pictures I made in New Mexico last month. The Audubon colores appear darker and much more red and less yellow than my recent picture. My source identifying the bird as the Black-headed Grosbeak is my sister-in-law who has long lay experience but could be wrong.

Click Here for the Audubon picture. For comparison my photo is attached. Are these the same Bird specie?

JoanK: What a lovely poem about the indigo bunting! Writing poetry is such a special talent. Lovely. Do you have a picture of your bird?

The picture of Mippy's purple galinule is absolutely GORgeous!! My heavens - the turquoise and blues! He actually does look like a chicken, but a most beautiful chicken. I have never seen anything like that in the wild.

I live near the Connecticut River north of Hartford. The Connecticut River is supposed to be a migratory path for many birds. We have a riverwalk along the Farmington River which meets the Connecticut in my town of Windsor. I keep hoping to see exotic birds there, but I haven't seen too much. The most special (to me) that I've seen there is a great blue heron. I like them very much. It has the patience of Job waiting for prey, pointing just like a pointer dog, as still and silent as can be. And then, zing, it will grab a frog and swallow it.

I once saw a great blue heron on the lawn of someone who lived on Lake George. I was kayaking by and saw what I thought was a sculpture of a heron. A bit later I noticed it had moved. It was real!

Herold: Your photo looks like his female.

Harold: Your photo is beautiful. It's amazing how you can get such close-ups.

JoanK: Where are the nests of the goldfinches you have seen? What kind of trees do they like and how far up are they? I can't see my goldfinch nests. We have lots of sugar maples around us. I can hear birds in the trees, but can't see nests, just a big old squirrel nest.

Joan: We posted at the same time.

Harold: It seems the Audubon online book bird plate links don't work on specific bird painting pages. The links all revert back to the Enter page. Same thing happened to me.

"The blue of the jewel That hides in your heart."

That is really giving me something to think about.

Here is a rather scruffy Indigo Bunting, but it will give you an idea:

INDIGO BUNTING

It looks like the female here too.

BLACK HEADED GROSBEAK MALE AND FEMALE

Now I know why it's called an indigo bunting. It's such a rich brilliant blue.

JoanK: If you're still up, right this instance there is an eagle (I think) close up on the Wildcam.

https://www9.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/wildcamafrica/wildcam.html

I saw it! I don't see an eagle on the species list.

I didn't realize that if you click on the name of the animal in the species list, you get a picture. So, it looks like the deer-like animals whose antlers go straight up, but wavy, are impala.

JoanK, Marni and Mippy,

That Purple Glalinule is beautiful! This is my first time seeing one. Is this the American name?

JoanK, I love your poem. I love the same line that Mippy picked.

Harold, thanks for your link too.

I am missing some comments. I will need to go back and reread some posts. I have my book. I am ready to "fly!" Get it??? I am a poor jokester, but I try.

Please do not forget to give American names. I have not taken Latin. I have given it a thought or two.

Did Audubon ever paint Hummingbirds??? I have a Hummingbird feeder and red impatiens below the feeder.

JoanK,

That Indigo Bunting is soooo beautiful!!! I could look at him all day.

Marni- I too found that the address appearing in the URL address bar of Audubon pictures from the www.audubon.org site is always the Index page. However if you right click on the bird picture on your screen and click “Properties” you can copy the actual URL of the picture. This is how I directly linked the Audubon Grosbeak picture.

I have a similar color difference problem when I compare my magpie camera picture with the Audubon painting. My sister-in-law identified this magpie as the common magpie. Both my picture and my memory show the tail colors as blue. Yet the Audubon picture shows the tail as green for the common magpie.

My magpie: http://lonestar.texas.net/~hhullar5/NM5IMG_0277R_Magpie%206X4-5.jpg

From the Audubon pictures at www.audubon,org Common Magpie http://www.audubon.org/bird/BoA/images/originals/00377p1.gif

Columbia Magpie http://www.audubon.org/bird/BoA/images/originals/00379p1.gif

Based on a comparison my magpie seems closer to the Audubon Columbia Magpie although the distinct black head and white bottom in my picture is not apparent in the Audubon Columbia Jay.

Hats there are four humming bird pictures listed in the index at http://www.audubon.org/bird/BoA/ListOfPlates.html To find them click the URL and click edit/find on this page using the search string, humming

Harold,

Thank you! I am enjoying all the clickables.

The Magpie is beautiful!!

Are all these Magpies from different families??? Different species?? Each one is very pretty.

What a huge explosion of ... feathers ... no, of photos ...

I'm so very delighted to see all of them, and thanks for rounding up those bird sites!
Galinules are what the birders call them, purple galinules, and they only occur in the warmer parts of the U.S., such as southern Florida.

Hats: You have your book! That's terrific! Euge! (Hurrah!) I am just taking Latin (on SeniorNet) for the first time, so I don't know Latin, either. Not to worry. It IS fun, though, now that I'm in Latin class, to hear Latin words for things like birds!

You are so lucky to be able to attract hummingbirds. I've tried various things, but only once have seen one (briefly) in my yard.

Harold: Thanks for the tip about getting the actual bird plate URL in the Audubon online book. I'm going to try it with his picture of the American Goldfinch. Here goes:

http://www.audubon.org/bird/BoA/images/originals/00305p1.gif

Excellent! It works. See what I mean about the color of his goldfinches? I wonder how much is the artwork and how much is the way it was scanned in online?

Now here are what the colors look like in my backyard!

American Goldfinch

Harold: Do you have any of your own photos of the goldfinch?

MARNI: great picture.

Yes, all of Audubon's colors seem off. It could just be aging of the prints. Or that he didn't have enough colors available, or enough talent at mixing to get them right. Or transmitting them.

But Peterson's colors are sometimes off too. Peterson painted from skins, which probably had changed color. I guess we'll find out if Audubon did too.

Audubon was a great pioneer. But all of the others who came later were able to build on his work. It would be very disappointing if after all these years, no one had been able to improve on his work.

JoanK and Marni,

The American Goldfinch is very pretty. I can't believe Harold takes photographs of these beautiful birds. I can't imagine moving fast enough to click the photo! My hands would start shaking.

Marni the following is a page with pictures of Cardinals and Gold Finch taken a few years ago at my Guadalupe County country place. http://lonestar.texas.net/~hhullar5/Temp_cardinals-goldfinch.htm The Camera I was using then was 3 MP Olympus with a 10X zoom but no image stability. At the bottom of the page are links to several otrher bird pages taken at Guadalupe county and the 18th Century Mission Espada. Also I have several other New Mexico sites taken over the past several years with previous Cameras. These include the following taken at the Bandeier National Monument http://lonestar.texas.net/~hhullar5/NM3_Birds%20at%20Bandelier.htm

Hats as it happed speed was seldom necessary in getting these pictures In fact sudden movement such as suddenly bringing the camera to point on the subject would probably cause the bird to abort its intended course and rapidly fly away. A good picture required food to attract the bird, as much camouflage as possible, at least 10 to 12 feet distance, and no sudden movement. This required that I sit poised with the camera pointed on the spot where I expect the bird to land focused and ready to shoot. Most of last month’s New Mexico pictures were taken with the full 12X optical zoom, the 35mm equivalent of a 432mm lens. Some was taken through the glass window of my brother’s house. An exception was the Magpie picture that was taken, I suspect, 40 to 50 feet from the subject with the 12X Zoom at the Colorado Sand Dunes National Park site.

Regarding my new Canon S2 IS, I bought it last July immediately after it hit the market for the 12X zoom and its image stabilization capability. I note now it is not getting good reviews because of the relatively small view finder and image screen and slow recovery speed. The latter problem is common to most digitals save maybe a few very expensive ones. I am quite satisfies with the lens quality and the image stabilizing capability. I think the Pictures speak for themselves in this regard.

Harold: You must have the patience of Job!

I was so excited to see the cardinal pictures. Wonderful! That's my second favorite bird. Lots of them come to my deck, also. My neighbors call me to tell me they're watching the birds in my yard, that it's like a show. It certainly is colorful - goldfinches, cardinals, bluejays.

However, they have now attracted a community of cats. Cats are allowed to roam free in my town, unlike dogs which are required to be leashed. I think cats should be leashed, too. They are so brazen. (Sorry, cat lovers.) They sneak up under my deck, lie in wait, and pounce and kill birds in front of my very eyes.

My husband says that when I feed the birds, I'm providing lunch for the cats.

Exactly, the patience of Job. The patience pays off to catch such beauty. Harold, what a wonderful hobby.

Lovely pictures. That is a beautiful one of the cardinal female. She is so much more subdued than the male, people don't appreciate how beautiful she is.

Cats ! Yes, Marni, that is sad! I hate seeing cats stalking birds. I do think cats should be kept indoors, which was what I did when I had them, at least the last 10 years. Earlier, the kids did let them out. But they never caught birds in my yard ... too well fed?

Mippy: Maybe some cats that are well fed don't stalk birds. But, my friends' cats, all of which are allowed outside, seem to just enjoy stalking birds, full tummy or not. They catch them and play with them, torture them, eat them, bring them back to their owners to show them what good kitties they are. I guess it's a natural instinct. They can't help it. I get very upset with cats in my yard. I guess I'm just a dog and bird lover. I just realized - I didn't have any cats in the yard until my Wilbur (yellow lab) died.

I know none of you mean it. I have met you in other discussions and love your words. I think of you as my visiting friends each day. However, I am beginning to feel a bit unwelcome at the Audubon discussion.

I am a confessed lover of cats. My cat's name is Boots. Not long after my sons left home, I became ill. Just before my young men left home my cat, Velvet, disappeared. She was an outdoor and indoor cat. It took a long while before my husband and I discovered Boots. When we adopted Boots, the lady told us never to allow her outdoors. We promised. So, Boots stays inside. She likes looking out at the birds and trees from our patio window.

Next I will tell you a true story. Boots has a friend. Boots' friend is a bird. This bird calls to Boots every morning and every night. My husband and I feel they are sharing a friendly conversation. I feel the bird senses that Boots has never hurt another bird in her short life.

Oddly, I love mostly all animals. I grew up with dogs as pets. I still remember their names: Buttons, Princess, Duke, Miss Polly, etc. I will never forget any of my dogs. At this stage of my life, unapologetically, I have chosen to enjoy a kitten or cat in my home. If I could take care of both a dog and cat, I would open my door immediately.

Please allow me the right to love all animals. I desperately hate thinking of which animal would kill another animal. I have always loved birds. I have tried embroidering birds, painting birds, etc. My sister and her husband owned two Parakeets before her death. Their names were Pete and Gladys.

I might not participate much in this discussion because of my lack of knowledge. I don't know the names of many birds. I do want to learn all that is possible from Harold, Marni, JoanK, Mippy and the other posters. I find Harold's photography of birds and the techniques used amazing and interesting.

JoanK's first response to this discussion is unforgettable. I have read that post more than once.

For all cat lovers, I ask for the right to love birds as well as other animals. Oh by the way, I love squirrels too. Guess what! Behind her magic window Boots loves squirrels too. Again, there is one squirrel in particular who comes to visit Boots.

Well, I can't wait for this wonderful discussion to begin. Maybe I will learn how to recognize the songs of birds too.

Oh ~ Hats ~ don't take these comments wrong!
I used to have a cat named Boots, also!
I also loved the many cats in our home (each child had a cat),
and I happily fed the whole bunch of them! A Lot!

But now I have a black lab, Neuf, who is on a leash when we go outside, so he cannot chase the
birds when he wants to, especially the huge white egret which lives in our neighborhood, in S. FL.

Please, please don't leave because we spoke harshly about cats eating birds!

Mippy,

Oh, I would never leave the discussion. I can't wait until it starts. Give Neuf a pat from me. I would love to see that white egret. I bet it is soooo gorgeous!

There is a feral cat that has been hanging around my rural property in Guadalupe county. I've been putting out food for it every time I am there that is three or four times a week. I suspect he supplements his diet with birds field mice and rats, and once last spring he had a dead rabbit stashed away on the porch. Cats stalk birds instinctively. Even if they are well fed. The rabbit on the porch showed no signs of having been eaten and I suspect this is true of most birds they kill since a cat’s mouth seems poorly equipped . to chew and actually swallow birds.

I myself have been a dog person. In my later life I have had two, both strays dumped by former city owners in the country. The first one died after four years and the other, the late/great Jazz (picture attached), lasted 10 years before she didn't make it across the road and was terminated by a car.

Harold,

The late/great Jazz is so adorable!

Hats, please don't take my cat comments to heart!! I'm one of the few people I know who doesn't have a cat. All of my relatives have cats. My sister, who is a bit bonkers about cats, took in wild cats for a period and actually had 27 cats living in her apartment. Thank goodness, that phase is over. Now she has just her 3 special cats.

Marni

Did anyone just see 60 minutes? They had a whole segment about the long-elusive (and thought-to-be-extinct) ivory-billed woodpecker!! Very neat. Apparently, bird watching is the fastest growing recreation in America. 50 million Americans are bird watchers.

Here's the Audubon painting of the ivory-billed woodpecker. It was the largest woodpecker in America. (It looks like Woody Woodpecker!)

http://www.audubon.org/bird/BoA/images/originals/00426p1.gif

Oh, HATS, of course you can love both cats and birds. One of my best friends is a real cat person: she only has three at the minute, but usually it's six or eight. But I introduced her to watching birds, and she loved it. We would go all over the place together, looking at birds together until health problems “clipped our wings”. She would tell you that you are exactly right to love all animals.

I’m so glad you enjoyed my post. I have enjoyed yours so much over the years.

I have just fallen in love with an elephant!! (My husband says it’s not the first time, but I’m ignoring him). at the waterhole in Botswana whose link I posted a while ago, there has been a mother and baby elephant who come down to drink. The first time I saw them, the mother was drinking from the pond, while the baby drank from the mother. The next time, the baby tried to drink from the pond, but it’s trunk was too short – it couldn’t reach. Yesterday, they were there with others, and the camera zoomed in on the mother until we were staring into each others eyes face to face. That mother elephant has the oldest, wisest eyes I have ever seen. I wish she would adopt me.

Here is the link, if you missed it:

PETES POND

JoanK, I missed the link, I think. I will try again. I love elephants too. This morning I will have coffee with the elephants.

Marni, I missed the woodpecker!! I can't believe it. I could hit myself!

"Clipped our wings?" JoanK, that is cute. You have me really laughing now!

On my way to Pete's Pond!

JoanK,

I have been to Pete's Pond. I can hear the birds calling. I am going back later to look for the elephants.

Hats: Here's a site with interesting info about the ivory-billed woodpecker. (It's also in our Web Resources under Cornell Birds of N. America.)

http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA/demo/account/Ivory-billed_Woodpecker/

Here's the audio of the ivory-billed woodpecker. Click on the audio Play button:

http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA/demo/media/Ivory-billed_Woodpecker_media.html

Wow!!! Thank you, Marni!

The ivory-billed woodpecker is another gorgeous one. I like hearing his "voice" too. This is sooo exciting!!

Previously through an NPR report early this year I had heard of its possible survival at that time based as I understood it on the hearing its call. The report in the Cornell links seems to indicate that the experts now are rather well satisfied based on actual sitings and analysis of picture evidence that the bird does exist. This is exciting News!

I will ask Marjorie to add the two links in Marni's message 72 to the Web Resources Page.

I had the pleasure of visiting the Audubon home which is in suburban Philadelphia ( Audubon, Pa.). The home was filled with his original etched copper plates of ornithological drawings. It was breathtaking to see his original work. Another area of interest was one round room which I found quite unusual: from the outside it appeared as a tower. Strange,I remember this visit quite vividly which was 50 or so years ago: a Sunday drive with our two young daughters in fact it was a bright sunny Fall day with the sun shining brightly through the windows in the Audubon home which created a most pleasant aura.

That was an interesting descriptive comment about your visit to Audubon's Philadelphia Home so many years ago. You are welcome to add your further comment on Audubon as this discussion progresses. I am not surprised about the copper plates at the Audubon house since his pictures were printed as monochrome and hand colored by a colorist.

I would like to know more details about this process. I suppose it was similar to the way photograph portraits were colored before color film became available. The photograph was made using black & white film, printed, and chemically changed to sepia (brown and White). Color was applied by hand using a transparent oil color. I made the attached 70’s New Orleans street scene by that process.

Hi Harold,

You do lovely work!!Wow!!

Welcome, Potsherd! How interesting that you saw the Audubon home and J.J.'s original etched copper plates of ornithological drawings. We will be reading about the process of creating them and the process of transforming Audubon's paintings into books in this biography. Please let us know more about your tour as we read about his life. I wonder if the house is still there.

Harold, what a beautiful picture! I looks more like a painting than a photograph.

Speaking of creating photographs reminds me of something in a book I just finished. I read Cold Mountain by Charles Frazier. There is an interesting section where he describes how many families had pictures taken before their sons went off to fight in the Civil War. They had to sit completely still for many minutes for the photographer to capture a picture without blurring. No wonder those old daguerrotypes, etc., show people looking so uptight, rigid, and unsmiling.

I wonder what all this bird flu frency is going to do to bird populations around the world....and people. It seems like birds carry many diseases - sort of like rats!! Oh, no!! And so many of them migrating. Does anyone know what this bird flu is exactly and how it infects birds and people?

I am not much of a poster but a few years ago when in England we went to an out door eating place and to me it was like eating in a chicken coop as there were so many pigions so did not eat there so ended up in an a resturant of my choice and ate there as long as we were there and staid free from whatever they caught.

I have heard that the 1918 flue is just beinging again and that was a bad one in it's day.

For me with alergies I have learned to use pure Eucalus oil one way or another as that is what is most effective for me as it is in most medicenes (sp) for colds, flue etc.

No I do not know how this bird flu started or the beef threats en al but hey we all must eat so for me will take my chances, " hey I am 72" and put my trust in a higher power whatever that may be to you as I remember even vegies were bad for us at one time. OH face it if one don't get us another will so be prepared for whatever.

Somewhat off topic, but about the historical period:

Cold Mountain by Charles Frazier was indeed a memorable book.

I've just finished Doctorow's The March (2005) about the march of Sherman through the South,
during the Civil War.
There is an important subplot about how pictures were taken in the Civil War, including a picture of the generals ... don't want to give away the plot.

Harold ~ your photography is to die for, as they say. Wow!

Senior's Net Books discussed this Civil War story in 1998 shortly after its publication.

http://discussions.seniornet.org/webx?7@53.0UcYa3i4kCe.393@.ee73209/202

Cold Mountain was a most beautifully written novel. I had seen the film and decided I wanted to read the book. Turns out it was very loosely based on a real person, William P. Inman, a North Carolina resident. Depressing novel, however. I suppose that most of what you read about the Civil War is fairly depressing.

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Mippy: Sherman's march through the south was so terrible. How did you find the book? Would you recommend it?

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Tonight on TV!!!

Public TV is showing "Destination America" beginning tonight on Public TV (CPTV in Connecticut) at 10:00 p.m. EST. It examines the history of immigration to America in its historical context.

This is a timely program for us considering our book, JJA: The Making of an American, is about an immigrant from France.

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Ginger: You're right. We can't worry about everything. The news media makes such a big deal about everything that happens. However, many bird populations are being killed to prevent passing of bird flu from birds to birds and birds to people. It does seem, though, that world leaders are trying not to cause any panic. Can't say the same for the media.

Hi, Marni ~
I'm not a Civil War buff, so that wasn't why I read The March by Doctorow.
I have enjoyed other work by him, and so and jumped at this chance to read more.
I found out about the book either reading reviews on Amazon, or perhaps it was the Sunday NY Times Book Review.

This is the type of historical fiction that really captures your imagination, as the author brings real people, including President Lincoln, into the pages, interacting with the fictional characters.

I'm really enjoying our Audubon book, and hope to have time to link in some historical
material ~ if I ever catch up in Latin.

Mippy: I read Ragtime by E.L. Doctorow. Very interesting. Is that the same Doctorow?

Yes, Marni

Marnie, regarding your question is the Audubon home still there? Yes, it is and is a dedicated State Of Pennsylvania Historic Site, carefully maintained by state employees and volunteers. I am discouraged by the crass disregard by many citizens of our precious history. Our history is us as a people. We have a local farm we are trying to save from a builder which still has the remains of a road the British troops used to travel to the many fords( such as Chadds ford) of the Brandywine river to battle Lafayette and Colonial troops. We where defeated at the battle of the Brandwine and the British marched on and captured Philadelphia. Do we teach our children enough of our/their history?

Potsherd: You certainly live in an area with much interesting history! I'm not sure anymore if enough of our history is taught. I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately since I've become very interested in early American history. I'm realizing that there is just so very much to learn and there is only so much of one subject that can be provided in school. I think history is something that one must continue to pursue forever on one's own because it is such a vast field. Perhaps if schools, at the very least, could help to develop an interest in history, they would have done a good job. Then, students can continue to pursue their interests either in advanced education or on their own.

Marni

Speaking of history in Pennsylvania.....I was excited to find in some papers and photos my dad gave me recently that one of my ancestors, who fought in the American Revolution, was given 150 acres of land near Pittsburgh in payment for services as a soldier in the war. After the war, he built a log cabin on the property and farmed the land. The family graveyard was on the property. My dad had a chance to visit the homestead in the 1980's. Just after he visited it, the cabin burned down! Turns out my only child, my son Daniel, has the same name as this ancestor. I'd like to visit the property some day and see if the graveyard still is visible.

Did anyone have a chance to see the PBS program on immigration in America last night? It was very good. I was thrilled to see that J.J. Aubudon was briefly highlighted in the 2nd segment as one of the few great artists who had emigrated to America in its early days.

---------------------------------------------------

Does anyone have any interesting family immigration stories to tell?

My husband's family came to America after being given a land grant by the Dutch queen in the 1600's. The land grant was extensive and included a good deal of New Jersey and Manhattan, including Wall Street. (I thought that was really cool!) Unfortunately, all that remains of the family property today is a Dutch colonial farmhouse (the oldest in the U.S.) in Englewood, NJ and it has been taken over by the state to preserve it.

My mid 19th century German immigrant ancestors on my paternal side are pictured about 1913 Click Here. My maternal immgrant ancestors came earlier in early 18th centure so there are no pictures, but Click Here for a verbal sketch.

All sorts of things here.

First: the paperback of our book is out, and available on Amazon. That means that the hardback has been remaindered and is available for as little as 86 cents and shipping. But beware. I ordered one copy, and it said estimated arrival date as late as Nov. 11. I canceled that and ordered from another with expedited shipping: total $6.something. I'm hoping it will come before I leave for California on the 28th.

I loved hearing the ivory billed woodpecker call. Even I (who am hopeless at remembering bird calls) can tell it's quite different from the woodpeckers I'm used to. It's an amazing story.

I've been following the bird flu stories. As of now, humans can only get it from handling the birds or eating uncooked bird products. They say you can't get it from eating well-cooked chicken. (Tomorrow they will say something else). They assume that eventually, it will spread to the US, perhaps through Alaska. The big fear is that the virus will mutate so that it can spread from one human to another. As of now, that's not happening.

On ancestors: my fathers family came from Italy just before he was born in 1902. I have little information on them. But I have a lot of information on my mother's family, who came to this country just after the Mayflower, settled first in New England, then in Ohio. My great great grandfather was in the gold rush in the 1840s, and wrote letters back to his wife. My aunt found these letters in someone's barn and sent them to my mother. She transcribed them, and had them printed and bound. He was a very good writer, and it gives quite a good picture of the gold rush, and the times. My mother also had printed another set of letters from an ancestor who fought in the Civil War.

My only well known ancestors are Morse (who invented the telegraph) and John Brown (of Harper's Ferry fame). I am his fourth cousin four times removed.

Wow, JoanK! Thank you for the wealth of information!! I hope those who prefer to buy the paperback can get it quickly because Nov. 1 is almost here! Thanks for finding out about that. Let's hope that bird flu does not become such a threat. That is so fascinating about the books of your relatives' letters. What a wonderful special family treasure. And your mother - what a brilliant move to have the letters printed. That must be a very rare treat.

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Harold: I think that's wonderful that you've put your family history on the web, along with many others things. You are quite a guy.

My family on my mother's side is German, too, and came over early in the 19th century. They came by way of New Orleans and the Mississippi River, but instead of heading west, they headed up to Ohio and settled near what is now Columbus to farm.

My dad's mother came over when she was a 12-year old orphan from Wales in the early 20th century. She moved in with relatives who lived in Pittsburgh. There was a lot of coal mining in Wales and many Welsh settled in Pittsburgh because of the coal mining jobs there.

Nobody famous in our family, but it is so interesting to trace back our family history. So many came over to America. What a special country.

JoanK: I just noticed the quote under your name - "The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single eheu".....

Now that I know what "eheu" means (alas), I'm thinking this applies to many immigrants to America!

Marni

I find another Philadelphian who to my mind somewhat parallels John Audubon his name is John Bartram. Bartram,a self-taught Quaker botanist in 1728 founded the first botanic garden dedicated to North American plants. A generation before Lewis and Clark, Bartram traveled throughout the English Colonies describing and documenting plants that were growing in the wild. Bartram a friend of Benjamin Franklin and dabbled in ornithology and philosophy. He came up with the idea for founding the American Philosophical Society ( you may want to check out their web site) which Franklin brought to fruition. His son William traveled with him in later years and gave a botanical name to the oak-leaf hudrangea,Hydrangea quercifolia, the state wildflower of Alabama. He and his families accomplishments is frankly amazing. As an amateur archaeologist I appreciate John and William Bartram in their plant studies encountered and very accurately described many Native American peoples, their cultures and villages. Bartrams recorded information has become invaluable to anthropologists and archaeologists through time as the Native American culture and peoples diminish through acculturation. I believe William Bartrams book title “Travels” may still be available.

Potsherd: Thank you for the information about John and William Bartram. I didn't know anything about them. There is a lot of information on the internet about John Bartram and William Bartram. The link below leads to just one of many sites filled with interesting info about William Bartram's life and works.

http://www.bartramtrail.org/

I found that Bartram's Travels is online, at least part of his book. I found a pretty exciting site that has not only his work, but works of many famous American explorers. Click on the link below:

Index of explorers' historical writings: http://www.americanjourneys.org/texts.asp

Once there, scroll down to: 1773 William Bartram. Click on AJ-123 to the right.

You'll get to the following screen: http://www.americanjourneys.org/aj-123/index.asp

Here you can click on "Read this Document." You'll be able to read a portion of Bartram's Travels, starting at page 114, I believe. It's fascinating!

Marni

Here is info about John Bartram, the "Father of American Botany."

http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/PA_Env-Her/john_bartram.htm

It looks like John was a famous botanist and his third son, William, became a famous ornithologist.

Marni

Wow! Thanks for all those sites. I bookmarked them to read as soon as I catch up in Latin (sigh).

Glad you like my quote. originally, it said "starts with a single oy". But when I realized that "eheu" was the Latin equivelant of "oy", I decided to change it (if anyone needed a word like "oy", it was those Romans).

Joan ~ love your explanation ~

marmi, many thanks for all the cite locations. Will keep me busy on this rainy afternoon.

Marni,

I would like to say thank you too. I intend to enjoy the clickables today.

Waiting for Wilma, here in Florida...

Do any of you wonder about where the birds go to be safe during tropical storms? ... planning to research this, later.

I'll be back, if we don't loose our power.

Mippy,

That's a good question. I would love to know the answer.

I don't pretend to have the full answer to Mippy's question but in past years when storms are affecting the South Texas Gulf coast, I have had flocks of seabirds, particularly seagulls, on my pond in Guadalupe county almost 150 miles inland from the coast.

And Hats and others who are using the weekend to review the links on the Web Resources page, I particularly recommend the link on the War of 1812. This is an interesting relatively short summary of this early unnecessary war that in the end accomplished nothing. Also any of you who have favorite related links please post the URL and we will add them to the Resources page.

Mippy: Good luck during the hurricane. I hope it's not a bad one at this stage and that it misses your area. I haven't heard the weather yet today. I'll have to check on the hurricane's path and intensity.

That's interesting about the birds flying so far inland. Natural critters certainly seem to have an innate biological defense system when it comes to natural disasters. They can sense coming trouble in advance so they can take cover. I thought it was interesting to hear how the wild animals in Sumatra ran way inland before the tsunami hit.

I agree the birds fly inland ... but there's not any place to go in the southern FL peninsula that is out of danger, this time.
Yes, Marni, I was thinking of the animals running for safety ahead of the tsunami, also.

My next door neighbor and I were standing out front a few minutes ago, noticing that all the birds are gone ... no mocking birds, cardinals, or warblers ... so the little pasterine (perching) birds have already begun to look for safe places ... I hope ...

Thanks, Marni, Hats, and Harold for your noting where I am ...

Good luck, Marni. Be sure and let us know that you're all right.

MARNI: you're ok! Great.

My book came! That means I can take it with me on vacation. Leaving Friday, back late November 7th. Hopefully, I can keep up.

JoanK: I'm so glad your book came. It's a perfect book to take on vacation. You'll be all set to jump right into the discussion when you return. If we don't hear from you here before you leave, have a wonderful time!!

Marni

Marni,

I am glad you are safe too!! After all your great comments and clickables in the 'Shadow of the Wind,' I want you to stick around for a long time.

Hats: Thank you very much for your concern. But, there is no need to be concerned for me. I'm in Connecticut and we weren't hit by Wilma.

I think that somewhere along the line someone mixed me up with Mippy. Mippy is in Florida, I believe, and has not posted for some time. I hope she is OK. She may not have electricity or access to a working computer. If I hear from her in another discussion, I'll let you know.

Marni

Oh, Marni thanks for telling me. I am glad you are in Connecticut. I hope Mippy is well.

It was me that got confused. Sorry.

Here I am in Califoria without a bird guide, seeing one of those Western hummingbirds. Hope to see more Western birds before I leave -- I know nothing about them.

I wonder who the writer is on "The war of 1812" site. The address looks like it could be Duke Univ, it says du.edu and a name, but is it the name of a professor, or a student who is doing a paper on the war. There seem to be too many grammatical errors and personal comments and opinions to be a professor's posting.

Even so, i think a lot of the data is correct. I teach history at a community college and am not an expert on the period, but it sounds right in general.......and i actually laughed at the comments. Students will sometimes write a paper in that form, w/ little jokes and humor if they are comfortable w/ the professor, or the professor hasn't asked for a formal paper. I think they think it will put the prof in a better mood when grading it. LOL

Robby always reminds us to "consider the source" when reading website info, which is what made me think about this and comment......jean

I wonder who the writer is on "The war of 1812" site. The address looks like it could be Duke Univ, it says du.edu and a name, but is it the name of a professor, or a student who is doing a paper on the war. There seem to be too many grammatical errors and personal comments to be a professor's posting.

Even so, i think a lot of the data is correct. I teach history at a community college and am not an expert on the period, but it sounds right in general.......and i actually laughed at the comments. Students will sometimes write a paper in that form, w/ little jokes and humor if they are comfortable w/ the professor, or the professor hasn't asked for a formal paper. I think they think it will put the prof in a better mood when grading it. LOL

Oh! i just went to the end of the article and found a "home page" link. The writer is a professor emeritus of ENGINEERING at Univ of Denver - doesn't mean he doesn't know his history, but maybe it explains his opinionated and judgmental statements. He obviously is not writing as an academic historian......jean

Joank,

Does a Western hummingbird look different from a the Eastern coast hummingbirds? Is one bigger or smaller than the other one?

I hope you are in California for a fun trip.

Joan K- what color was the California humming bird? The New Mexico hummers I photographed last month were green. They were quite attractive compared to the rather drab brown ones I have been seeing in Guadalupe County TX.

Mabel- thanks for tracing the source of the War of 1812 site to the University of Denver. I enjoyed reading it since its tone was in keeping with the theme that it was another of our unnecessary wars. I too thought its facts checked pretty accurately with history. During the preceding years, we seem to have had considerable trouble deciding which side we wanted to fight, France or England, England seems to have been the choice based on the shipping issue and perhaps the tempting opportunity to grab Canadian real estate. The peace treaty did not change anything and the bloodiest battle of the war was fought after the treaty had been signed.

In preparation for the discussion I have re-read “Audubon’s 1826 Journal,” and am currently completing a re-reading of the 1843 Journal by Edward Harris, “Up The Missouri With Audubon.” I will provide comment from these books when appropriate during the last 1/3 of the discussion.

At this time, I am particularly intrigued with the latter and its story of Harris, Audubon and a couple of other Eastern wild life enthusiasts spending a summer at Fort Union at the mouth of the Yellowstone. They collected wild life samples indiscriminately shooting anything that flew, crawled or walked over or on the prairie. I learned much from this book about the dangerous art of chasing buffalo on horseback. Audubon who was 58 at the time did not participate in the buffalo chases, I suppose in deference, to his 58 years.

Is every one ready for our kickoff on Tuesday?

This is so exciting that we're about ready to roll.

Joan: You've checked in from California! That is great!! I'd love to see the western hummingbird. I've only seen an eastern (?) hummingbird about 3 times. So tiny. And don't come to my yard.

Mabel: A college history teacher! You will add so much to our discussion. You've already enlightened me regarding the 1812 article. I'm going to have to go read it. I became interested in the War of 1812 last year when the History Channel had a series of specials on about the war. I read some books about James Madison, Steven Decatur, and other figures prominant in the war. During a visit to Washington, D.C. my husband and I toured through the Smithsonian Museum of American History and saw the "star-spangled banner" for the first time. It brought a lump to my throat. I was flabbergasted to see how huge it was. We toured the white house, but missed Gilbert Stuart's Washington portrait that Dolly Madison saved because it was being cleaned. We also visited the Steven Decatur house. Later, we toured star-shaped Fort McHenry in Baltimore. Amazing to see the site in person, how it is situated surrounded by water on 3 sides, guarding the city of Baltimore. Fascinating that the War of 1812 was one of the "forgotten wars." It figures importantly in our Audubon biography.

Our Week 1 discussion questions will be posted Monday night so that we will be all set to go on Tuesday. I'm looking forward to this very much. What a good book! And what an interesting era we will be discussing!

Marni

You would probably enjoy reading about Dolley Madison, she's a great historical character. I don't have the name or author of a non-fictional biography of her, but Rita Mae Brown has written a very good fictional account on her called, simply, "Dolley."......jean

Mabel (Is it Jean?): Yes, I know I would enjoy reading about her. I should try to find that book. Thanks for the idea.

In a couple of James Madison bios that I read, she was quite fascinating. She certainly seemed to be the opposite of her husband in many ways - so very outgoing and sociable. She made people comfortable at his social events - her social events, I guess. They seemed a wonderful compatible couple.

I read The Founding Mothers by Cokie Roberts and enjoyed that very much. I can't remember if Dolly Madison was one of the women highlighted. She probably was.

Marni,

I have The Founding Mothers by Cokie Roberts on my reading list. I am glad you mentioned it.

The hummingbird I saw seems to be an Anna's hummingbird, from the pictures I found on the web.

ANNA'S HUMMINGBIRD

HATS: yes. The great plains and Rocky mountains are barriers that many birds won't cross. While some birds in California are the same as Eastern birds, many are different.I seldom get here, and am tangled with family when I do, so while I know the Eastern birds fairly well, I'm really ignorant about Western ones.

In the East, we only have one species of hummingbird: the Ruby Throated. In the West, there are a number. The Anna's that I saw seems to be the most common species.

I've started the book, and so far, I find it fascinating! Will hold off comments til Monday.

JoanK,

All fascinating information. Thanks for taking time out from the family to join us again.

What a little sweetie! Great picture, Joan. Thanks!

Hats: You'll really enjoy Founding Mothers. Wait til you read about the wife of Gouverneur Morris! I'd like to hear your reaction!!

Marni

Click Here for "Dolley, a novel by Rita Mae Brown. Apparently this is the novel mentioned above.

Also I note that there are several biographies of Dolley Madison in the B&N catalog. Click Here.

And Click Here for Cokie Robert's Founding Mothers.

I note the green body color of the Anna's humming bird is quite similar to the New Mexico hummers I photographed last month but the New Mexico bird did not have the red colored hed like the Anna's bird.

Harold,

Thank you for the links of information.

Thanks, Harold!

Though I am an hour and forty-five minutes early for my central time zone, that is only 45 minutes early for the Eastern zone, I think that’s close enough to declare the board officially open.

One of the things that seemed strange to me today was the ease in which 18 year old John James Audubon made his 1803 entry into the U.S, There is no indication that he made any pre arrival arrangement at all. There was no immigration permit or visa required. He just took passage on a ship and arrived at New York , disembarked and melted into the population. We hear of many reasons why our ancestors came to America including favorites like religious freedom and vast amounts of cheap or free land, but I suspect that Audubon’s reason, avoid Napoleon's draft also brought others at that time.

And the ease in which Audubon later became a citizen- He just stopped by a local court house and recorded an oath swear allegiance and denouncing his previous allegiance and he was in. In Dec 1860 my great grandfather, August Schlick, newly arrived from Germany stopped by the court house at Brenham Texas to record a similar oath making him also a Citizen.

I suppose John James Audubon had to deal with a language barrier. Making contact with English speaking people must have been difficult for a French speaking young man. I guess one of the characteristics of Americans in the early nineteenth century might have been inability to converse fluently. I did notice in reading that John James Audubon's father asked the captain of the ship to look out for him.

I think it must have taken these new Americans quite a bit of bravery to cross the seas and enter a new land.

Ellis Island is not mentioned. I guess John James Audubon's landing in America happened long before Ellis Island had been constructed. Without Ellis Island or a place like it these new future citizens must have felt lonely, confused, like being dropped in ice cold water.

Good morning Hats. You raise some interesting points in your message #131. For me (one who has struggled to learn Spanish through school and exposure) the language barrier would have been a real problem. Yet Rhodes says nothing to indicate that it was much of a problem for Audubon. Perhaps his early schooling had included some English. In any case he was young and the learning of new language often comes easily for young people

An example of early French immigrant’s quick adaptation to new language environment was the late 17th century French immigrants at the La Salle colony on the Texas Gulf coast (1685 –1688). Several still in their teens after the collapse of the colony, found themselves living with Indians. A few years later after the Spanish had recovered them, the Indian language had completely replaced French to the extent that according to the Spanish, they had forgotten their native language.

I now find that Ellis Island as a New York reception center for arriving immigrants was opened much later then I would have suspected. According to a beautiful coffee table book, Ellis Island-Gateway To The American Dream by Pamela Reeves (a gift from a gracious Seniorsnet associate), it did not open until 1892. I would have guessed the 1850’s or at the latest the 1870’s. In any case in 1803 Audubon walked from his ship into America completely on his own both un-aided, and unfettered by any Government.

Hi Harold,

Thank you for the link to a book about Ellis Island. As far as the language barrier, thank you for a better understanding. My thoughts stemmed from the statement made by Rhodes

"Before he could learn American birds he had to learn English."

I think that is the quote that got me wondering about his French vs.the English language. Knowing John James Audubon was extremely intelligent leads me to understand that he would not have suffered adjustment problems for long.

Harold,

There is so much in your above post. I am reading and rereading it. I have never heard of the La Salle Colony on the Texas Coast. That is so interesting.

Thank you also for providing the year that Ellis Island opened.

Hi, Hats and Harold! Yay, it's our first official day for our Audubon discussion!

It did seem that Audubon picked up English quite easily even though he was already a teenager when he arrived in America. (It's supposed to be much easier to learn a new language when you're just very little.) One thing that probably helped a lot was that he lived with a Quaker American family for awhile. He would have been totally immersed in the English language, as a result, and would have been forced to learn English just to get along. The family helped him with his English. That must have been like an intense language class. Also, Lucy helped him with English when they became friends.

I imagine Audubon also had a natural affinity for new languages to some extent. I think that happens. I know, for myself, I started French in 7th grade and took it for 5 years. It was always difficult for me and I have never been very good at it. And now Latin....Yikes!

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Regarding immigration - It did seem very easy for Audubon to enter America and live here. However, I imagine there must have been some difficulties for French immigrants, perhaps depending on where they lived. America had a history of on-again/off-again wars with France. The French and Indian War had only ended in....1763? Only 40 years earlier? I bet there were many Americans who still held grudges against the French for that war at the time Audubon came over.

I think some people in America considered themselves superior, too, because their families had lived in America so much longer than others - like people who came over in the Mayflower, for example. I remember reading in McCullough's John Adams a remark Adams made about Alexander Hamilton, who had emigrated to America from Nevis in approx. 1775. I think Adams referred to Hamilton as "that little Creole bastard."

Marni

Hi Marni,

Yes, I agree with you and Harold. I think it is easier to learn a new language while young. I took two years of French while in high school. Then, two or three years in college. However, for me to carry on a conversation is not possible. I am too old to remember English much less another language.

Yes, it is very interesting reading about the French Revolution. I bet John James Audubon sighed with relief after leaving French soil. Finding friendly people like the Quakers must have been a welcome sight. Besides, didn't they nurse him through the Yellow Fever Epidemic?

Hats - I'm chuckling about you saying you're too old to remember English!! I feel the same way!! I actually taught English many many years ago. It is totally unbelievable what I can't remember about the English language. Oh, well. It doesn't matter. Latin 101 will help us with grammar and we're doing very well in book club discussions, don't you think??!!!

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Speaking of not remembering.....I do think that Audubon got yellow fever in New York when he landed in America. But, I have to look up who nursed him. Be right back.....

Found it! The ship captain who was watching out for Audubon delivered him to a boardinghouse outside Philadelphia where the two Quaker women who operated the place nursed him back to health. He was lucky! So many people died of yellow fever back then.

There were so many Quakers in Pennsylvania at that time. (Maybe still?) I think that was because of the charter William Penn obtained for the colony where its religious freedom allowed for Quakers to live there peacefully to practice their own religion without persecution.

Harold: Is that right?

Marni

I decided to participate in this discussion because i'm a history buff and teacher and am always looking for a fun way to add to my mental historical archives, BUT, what connections i've been making while reading this book!

I now live in Moorestown, NJ, Ginny's hometown, which is 12 miles from center city PHiladelphia, so i'm very familiar w/ that geographical area as Rhodes talks about Audubon's life here. That always makes a book, and especially history books, more fun. BUT THEN, he mentions the Lancaster Pike. That's now known as Rt 30, or the "Lincoln Highway" for those of you who may have traveled thru southern Penna. Apparently it wasn't completed further than from PHila to Lancaster at the time, because as the Audubon's made their trip west they do not follow the present day Rt 30 after Lancaster. Today you can go from Lancaster to York, to Gettysburg, to Chambersburg and across the mountains

The route the Audubon's took from Lancaster was thru Harrisburg - the town of my first teaching job, thru Carlisle, thru Walnut Bottom - a tiny village even today - and to SHIPPENSBURG - my hometown! Then thru Chambersburg, a town named for my 4 greats-grandfather and then across the mountains to McConnellsburg, my father's birthplace!! Holy cow! Who would have thought i would find so much of myself in a bio of Jean Aububon!!

I remember S-burg celebrating a sesqui-centennial of its incorporation sometime in the early 1950's, but knew it was a much older town. There is still a "courthouse" with a date of mid-1750's. It is named for Edwin Shippen who was the father of Peggy Shippen who married Benedict ARnold. There was a stationary store in town named for P.S. I have a feeling whoever did that didn't know she was B.A's wife!!

That "one long street" is now the main street of town, called King St and as you come into town from Carlisle (now Rt 11) there is still a tavern at the foot of the hill called Tollgate Tavern because there was, at the Audubon's time, a toll to be paid to get into town and the tollgate was at that spot.

Sorry to go on so long, but this was such a fun surprise that i tho't i'd share it w/ you.........jean

I'm sure that many languages were being spoken, especially in the PHila area. Philadelphia was the major port in the colonial days and during this federalist period, even bigger than NYC, so there were probably French/English-speaking people around him Also there were many Germans in the area, altho' nothing is said about this, it is possible that Audubon may have had some knowledge of German.

Yes, Marni, there are still many Quakers in the Phila/NJ area. They have had a strong presence in many towns and social/civic events, being fiscally conservative and socially progressive. When I first became familiar w/ Moorestown in 1968, there was a strong peace-movement headquartered in M-town.

I am always awed by how much people of this period traveled, considering how difficult and time-consuming it was. Continuing w/ the above tho't, many Quakers traveled from South Jersey to Phila to go to "meeting" on Sundays. On a bigger scale, i'm amazed at how many people traveled back and forth on the treacherous North Atlantic. I frequently say to my students "you live in the best of times," and we really do live in much greater safety than at any other time of history, regardless of how the 24/7 news stations try to scare us w/ their sensational stories.

Your questions are wonderful, i'm going to try not to "go-on" so much, but you have inspired me. "Characteristics of Americans at the time?" I think most people still may have thought of themselves as English, German, Dutch, French, etc., or as New Yorkers, New Englanders, Georgians, etc. We were still getting our minds around the idea of being Americans.

I'll stop now and continue to enjoy your discussions.......jean

JEAN: WELCOME WELCOME! How fascinating that you live in the area where Audubon lived. You'll have to let us know all about it. And it means that many of the birds he sees will be the same birds thst you see!how fun.

I'm not surprised thar Ellis Island didn't open until the 1890s. I would have guessed about ten years later. Of course, the America we know was built by immegrants. Clearly at first people just came. And were welcome, since they were needed to build the country. But later there was a tremendous surge in population in the late 1800s, early 1900s. A huge wave of immegrants came over (including my grandfather), just at the time when increased hygene caused a huge surge in the number of babies that survived. The increase was so great that the US population literally doubled in ten years. At the same time, the frontiers closed, and there was no longer empty land for these immegrants.People piled into the cities, causing huge overcrowding.

As a result, a lot of anti-immegrant feeling built up, leading to strict immegration laws and procedures at around the turn of the century: Ellis Island and worse. 1890 sounds about right.

Jean: did I get that right?

Jean: Your posts are FASCINATING!! Please do go on as much as you like! How interesting that you are so familiar with the area where the Audubons lived and traveled.

I did not know that there was a town named after Peggy Shippen's father. She was certainly a vixen! I grew up in New London, CT. The names Benedict Arnold and Peggy Shippen were hated names in New London. Arnold, after he turned traitor, led a raid on New London and the whole town burned down. Well, I guess they paid for what they did.

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JoanK: How's California treating you? It's so nice to see you posting here! Yes, it really is interesting to see how immigration changes with population, economic, and wartime issues. Prejudice seems to have a lot to do with how immigrants are treated.

I'm learning about how the Chinese immigrants were treated in California in the 19th century as I'm read Nothing Like It in the World by Stephen Ambrose - about building the transcontinental railroad. Pretty startling! Here's a blurb:

"California law discriminated against them in every way possible, and the state did all it could to degrade them and deny them a decent livelihood.....They could not go to public school, they were denied citizenship, they could not vote, nor could they testify in court. Nevertheless, they paid more than $2 million in taxes. If Chinese dared to venture into a new mining area, the whites would set on them, beat them, rob them, sometimes kill them. Thus the saying, 'Not a Chinaman's chance.'....The politicians cursed them, vied with one another about who hated the Chinese the most, declared them to be dregs, said they worried about the terrible habits the Chinese brought with them....In 1858,the California legislature banned any further importations."

Marni

I hope it is alright to call you Jean. I am enjoying and learning from your posts as well. Jean, reading your post is like reading a living book of history.

Along with Harold, Marni and you the book will really come alive.

Marni,

I would love to read Nothing Like It in the World by Stephen Ambrose. Thank you for sharing a bit of it.

Hi JoanK!

About 10 million people came to the U.S. between 1890 and 1910,many from Eastern Europe, including Russia, so they tended to be "different' than the largely WASP population that was here, different language sounds (slavic, rather than "Latin-based"), different foods, different religions (many Jews), d' holidays, d' clothing, all which was one of the reasons there began to be more intolerance of immigrants. Of course, Benjamin Franklin stated that the Germans were obnoxious, pushy, stubborn people and he didn't care to associate w/ them. That was in the 1750's or 60's. LOL

Obvious differences make it easy too stereotype a people.

I'm not sure that having no more "frontiers" was the reason for immigrants to stay in the cities. There was still ample rural space in the country and Scandinavians famously moved to the northern middle of the country as we can hear and see in today's citizens of Minn, Wis, the Dakotas. Most people stayed in the cities because they didn't know, or didn't have the resources to go someplace else. Or they stayed with relatives, w/ communities of people like themselves, sometimes with people from their old villlages or towns. There were in eastern cities often whole blocks of people who were from the same towns in Europe and they kept their languages, cultures and relgions, which, as today, didn't make them popular w/ the citizens.

We tend to say "our ancestors learned the to speak English, so today's immigrants should learn to speak English. We shouldn't provide bi-lingual teachers, signs, legal papers or interpreters." That is one of the myths of U.S.history, our ancestors published newspapers, held church services, organized theaters and clubs that all used their native languages.

Of course, the biggest anti-immigrant attitudes came from the lower classes who were competing w/ immigrants for jobs, which has always been an area of contention. Irish workers burned down the headquarters building, built by the PHila Women's Anti-Slavery ASsn, the first night it was to be open at Broad and Spruce Streets in PHila in the mid-1800's.They feared for their jobs,if slavery was abolished.

I live on a property that has a large section that has been left to wildness, so we have all the usual native birds. My favorites are the cardinals. In the spring the males will "fight" the "intruder" in my car side-mirrors, pecking away at their own images. The first time i was it i couldn't figure out what he was doing, but then i read that they are very territorial,especially in the spring......jean

I have never thought of it in that way or even knew it. Anti-immigrant attitudes were predominant among the lower classes due to a lack of employment for each person.

Jean, were anti-immigrant feelings also voiced or felt by those in the higher classes of society? I know many of the immigrants, Irish, Polish, German, etc. worked in the homes of those who were in the higher echelons of society. I wonder if these employers had preconceived ideas about the people who worked in their kitchens, did their laundry and other duties?

Sorry to ask so many questions. I am enjoying this learning experience.

I also wonder if immigrants flocked to the cities from the frontiers because of the many Native Americans living on those lands.

Well I left for my volunteer work at the San Antonio Missions National Historical Park at noon so I have missed the afternoon’s activity. Indeed, there were many interesting posts.

I think it was Marni who mentioned Audubon’s Quaker connection in a morning post. Though it was short time wise it was a critical period as he was ill with a life threatening illness, quite likely yellow fever that he acquired immediately after his arrival in New York. It was the Captain of the ship who Jean Audubon had asked to look after his son who delivered Audubon to a boarding house run by two Quaker ladies who nursed him back to health. They had a significant permanent effect on Audubon who never a Quaker himself, never the less throughout the rest of his life wrote much of his personal correspondence too intimates such as Lucy in. Quaker English. Rhodes says, “He thee’d and thou’d his intimates ever after.” I certainly noticed this picturesque language in the many letters to Lucy from England that he included in his 1826 Journal.

Jean, you for mentioning the amount of travel that seems so very common for people in the period. Wasn’t it pretty much the honeymoon trip for Audubon and Lucy overland by stage to Pittsburgh and then down the Ohio on a flat boat. Not exactly luxury was it. Trips continued through much of his life. Often after the children came Lucy would stay and Audubon would travel alone. We will see many of these trips with the couple separated lasted many months and even more than a year.

As the story moves deeper into the 19th century watch for changes in the travel mode in comparison with the horse drawn stage and flat boat. I suspect at the end of this discussion we might conclude that Audubon saw as much social and economic change as we are seeing in our lifetime today.

Regarding the sometimes negative feeling of native American for new immigrates it appears this has been with us since the earliest days. Be they Irish in 19th century New England, or Chinese in California or mid-eastern Mohammedans today it is a continuing story. Be that as it may America has always needed its immigrants as it needs them today . In a real; sense they have built America; they are still building it today!

Joan, enjoy your week in California.

Also 3 or 4 years ago Ginny led a discussion of the Ambrose Book, "Nothing Like It in the world. I participated and remember it as one of our all time best discussions.

Hats -- the upper classes were ambiguous about immigration, it brought them cheap labor whether in their homes or in their businesses, at the same time, by the end of century they were having the same fears that some WASPS (white-anglo-saxon-protestants) are having today, that they were going to be overwhelmed by these eastern European/Jewish/Italian/Irish CAtholics. That their culture may be doomed.......The U.S. culture nicely incorporated all of them and there talents and cultures to evolve into what we call America today.

You are right that there were many preconceived/stereotypical ideas of the various groups: Jews carried w/ them the burden of the centuries-old myth of being Christ-killers; Irish and Italians drank too much and were"lazy"; the Slavic peoples were considered uncouth (actually that was one of the words Franklin also used for the Germans) and uncivilized. Servants of whatever ethnicity would steal, or try to get out of work,etc. etc......Human beings are very good at demonizing those who are, in any way, different from themselves. I hope that some of my legacy is to have my students become aware of the talents, skills, contributions of EVERY group of people who have ever been in this country.

Yes, Harold, the country was built on the backs of all immigrants, including Africans, and when they moved up the class ladder, they invested in the country w/ their money, intellects and risk-takin. Of course, something can be said for the use-only-what-you-need-to-live-attitude of the Native Americans. ......jean

We've been talking for a bit about immigration and Audubon being a French immigrant. I thought he had quite an amazing story before he arrived in America.

Imagine being raised in Saint Domingue (Haiti) just as it was about to erupt in a huge violent slave rebellion, the bastard child of a sea captain/plantation owner who lived in France, swept off suddenly from his real mother to a strange country, France, that was in the midst of a huge violent revolution and about to erupt in the Reign of Terror, his family imprisoned, friends guillotined, then sent off to another strange country, young America, to escape Napoleon's draft, unable to speak a word of English, where he almost died of yellow fever. And still only a teenager. Whew!!

How do you think Audubon managed after all of this?

And how did birds fit into the picture?

When i read Audubon's birth story, it reminded me of Alexander Hamilton's being a child born to parents who were not married in the WEst INdies. We have benefitted nicely from these two "bastards." Just a thought......jean

Hi, Jean. We posted at the same time. Glad to see I'm not the only one up!

Marni

I should say we've benefited! I do think, though, from what I've read about both Hamilton and Audubon, that they always felt a stigma about their illegitimate birth and tried to overcome it in various ways.

I thought it was interesting the way Audubon changed his name several times - from Jean Rabin to Jean-Jaques Fougere Audubon and then to John James LaForest Audubon. His father's wife adopted John James to that he would be allowed legally to inherit from his father's estate. As an illegitimate child, he would not have been allowed to do so, according to the bio.

Marni

Speaking of our Hamilton, who is one of my heroes, here's a picture of his tombstone next to Trinity Church in New York City. My husband and I visited it during our trip this spring along the "Patriot Trail." He's buried right next to Robert Fulton.

Marni

Here's a picture of the Irish Museum in Manhattan, built to commemorate the Irish immigrants who came to America in the 19th century. It's built to look like a farm in Ireland, all grassy and stony, with a stone foundation of a typical cottage. There's even a potato garden. Downstairs along a corridor are many sayings of Irish people whose family died in the potato famine.

Marni

Harold,

I loved reading about the different ways of travel during that time. How easily we jump in a car or for longer travel a train or plane and don't think a thing of it. During Lucy and John James Audubon's time travel was very dangerous and difficult.

Harold, I looked closely at the flat boat. I had never heard of a flat boat. I don't remember seeing one. So, that information was very interesting. From what I could see the flat boat is very wide at the top. Not sure. Then, it took so long to get to the destination. That alone would have made me ill.

Harold, thank you for the information about Ginny's discussion on the Ambrose book. I will really enjoy reading some of it.

Marni, like you wrote, I do think Audubon managed quite a bit and he did it very well. To me, he seemed like a levelheaded, smart young man, only eighteen!! At such an early age, he had his mind on birds already. I think the freedom of the birds must have really attracted Audubon. Already, he is a world traveller, has experienced the hardships of travel. Do you think he might have looked up at the sky and thought, boy if only I could fly! I do that myself sometimes.

Marni, as usual you bring lots of interesting links to the discussion. Thank you.

Jean, I am sure you are a marvellous teacher! I am enjoying your posts tremendously!!!

Thank you very much for your opening statement yesterday. You gave so much information and in an interesting way. I am not use to nonfiction discussions. So, I have been slightly worried about this one. With my bad memory it is easy to get a fact out of place or not remember any facts!!

When I am nervous, I might seem like a grumpy, old questioning curmudgeon. It is because I am nervous.

Anyway, you put me at ease. I am still thinking about the La Salle Colony. That is very interesting.

Also, I wanted to say thank you for sharing your beautiful gift from another Seniornetter, The Ellis Island coffetable book. What a wonderful gift! She must have known and understood your love for history.

Also, thank you for explaining the language barrier. You gave me a lot to think about.

Jean,

When a teacher spoke, I have always been behind a desk!! Now I can relax, listen and take in all of your wonderful insights. Now I have a teacher for a bookie friend too!

Thinking about ways of travel, I think Mr. Rhodes mentioned Fulton's steamboat. While Audubon was travelling up and down the Ohio and Mississippi rivers, I suppose the Fulton steamboat was not ready for use yet. Would the Fulton steamboat allowed for safer travel?

Hi, Hats! Good question about Fultons' steamboat! I became very interested in this subject, too. You'll be reading more about the Audubon's experience with steamboats as we move along.

I found out 2 years ago that John Fitch invented the steamboat and received the patent for it. John Fitch was born and raised in Windsor, CT, my town, oldest town in CT!! (I had always thought Robert Fulton invented the steamboat.) Fitch spent years fighting for his rights regarding this invention as he continued to improve the steamboat and make a business of it. Depressed, he finally committed suicide.

Robert Fulton made significant improvements to the steamboat and was able to make a thriving business of it. The boats at first traveled in the northeast. But they spread to the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers. Even during Mark Twain's time, they remained dangerous and sometimes blew up. Here's an article about the development of the steamboat.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blsteamship.htm

My husband and I went for a paddleboat-style steamboat ride on the Mississippi River last year when we visited New Orleans. It was a replica of steamboats that traveled on the river in Audubon's time. The tour guide showed us the engine and discussed how dangerous the steamboats were and how careful the workers had to be with the engines. Not only could engines blow up, but the boats could hit snags in the river.

Here's a picture of our steamboat on "the Big Muddy."

Marni

Here's a closeup of the steamboat's paddlewheel.

Marni

Yummy!! Marni, this is good stuff! I never heard of John Fitch. I am glad you mentioned him.

Marni,

That photograph is gorgeous!!

Marni, & Jean, I too think Alexander Hamilton played a unique role in our national creation. I think his principal contribution was his role as Secretary of Treasury in the Washington Administration. It is not clear what kind of future he would have had if he had survived the silly duel with Burr. Burr too is an intriguing early character who was ruined politically by the Dual. Ella and I a few years ago were looking for a good Burr biography for discussion but did not find one we judged suitable. Perhaps we were being a bit picky.

Marni, Your picture of the Irish Museum is a real sharp one. What camera are you using?

Hats I don’t think a non-fiction discussion is much different from a fiction discussion. In both the participants are telling of their reaction, their interpretation of a story. In the fiction case the story is a fictional one conceived by the author; in a non-fiction discussion the story happens to be a real factual one. The discussion approach need not be much different.

And regarding the LaSalle Colony in 1685 it was the event that made the Spanish realize they had to establish their presence North of the Rio Grande or loose the middle continent to the French or English. Their first settlements of the area that is now Texas followed. Click Here for a brief outline of its history from the Handbook of Texas.

Regarding the Flat Boat its value was for a down stream trip, ie, drifting down with the current. Coming back was another matter. Our book tells us that such boats were built at Pittsburgh or other up-stream location. At the lower destination they were disassembled and the lumber used in local building projects. The great achievement of the early 19th century was the rapid development of the river steamboat that enabled up-stream transport. Wasn’t it Lucy’s Brother who began building Steamboats for the river trade?

Oh, that's interesting. I didn't realize that the flat boat could not travel upstream. Isn't that interesting? And downstream the flat boat depended on the wind current. Just reading about the changes in historical transportation is interesting.

Harold, could you give that Texas link again?

I would love to read a good book about Burr. This morning I have been reading over the archived discussion 'Nothing in the World Like It.' Ginny and the rest of you made the discussion so interesting. I have ordered the book. Can't wait to read it.

I missed the Alexander Hamilton link. I will have to go back and read it.

I have seen Marni's link for Alexander Hamilton. Is there another one?

There have been a couple books written on Burr in recent years. i haven't read them yet, but Thomas Fleming is a great writer and he wrote abook titled "Duel" in 1999. Another recent book is by Duckner Melton titled "Aaron Burr: Conspiracy to Treason." Looks like he's made up his mind about the whether Burr tried to start his own country in the West. LOL Then, of course, there is Gore Vidal's fictional account titled "Burr." I'm not fond of all of Vidal's work, but as i recall (i read it a long time ago) i enjoyed it. There is also a bio of Theodora Burr, his dgt, which i also read and enjoyed some time ago and i don't have the title. Over the last 10 yrs, i've begun to write in a small notebook the names/authors of books i've read. but that one was before i started doing that.

Hats - thank you for your kind words. One of the nicest comments i get from my students is "you make history so interesting, why didn't they teach us this when i was in high school?" I try to teach in a way that they can relate to the people and the events, not so much of memorizing dates and battles; they can look those up when they need them. i do try to make sure they know the chronology, whether the Civil War happened in the 1800's or the 1900's (i'm not kidding, it's sad what history they don't know and that includes the good, bright student, which means they weren't exposed to it, not that they didn't learn it; and don't even get me started on their lack of geographic knowledge!!)

Getting back to Audubon, i wish the author had included a map of the rivers that he's talking about, i'm having trouble picturing his trip down the Ohio to the Miss and an atlas isn't helping, it's not detailed enough.

Great picture Marni - it will be just a short time in the future (1830's) when the Irish begin to come in great numbers.

Many inventors have not been given credit for their inventions. The persons who had access to some kind of media where the ones who could get their names in history. Most new ideas were being explored by more than one person.

An interesting person of the time related to transportation was Cornelius (Commodore) Vanderbilt who ran ferries and boats up and down the Hudson to start his career, and gained a monopoly by threatening or literally destroying his competitors' boats. He, of course, went on to make millions. There is a good compilation bio of the "Vanderbilts" Again, i have forgotten the author, i'll look for the name.

This is a wonderful discussion. Thanks for all you links and additions.......jean

I learned something new about the steam engine just the other day when I watched a TV program about Heron of Alexandria. (I mentioned this to the Latin 101 class.) Heron lived at approx. the time of Trajan when Alexandria was part of the Roman empire. Heron (known as "the Machine Man") was an inventor and he invented the first steam engine - nearly 2000 years before the steam engine set off the industrial revolution. Heron's steam engine was just used for toys. No one figured out that it might be more useful for society, although Leonardo Da Vinci apparently experimented with Heron's invention.

Marni

Here are some paintings of flatboats.

http://www.thepastwhispers.com/flatboats.html

Oh good! Marni you read my mind. I would love to see some flat boats.

Jean,

Thanks for the Burr titles.

I particularly like the one 'Bound Down the River' by Currier and Ives.

From what I can understand from reading, Audubon was self taught. He had a tremendous talent. Since he had to draw and model his birds, the setting up and prep work took just as much talent as the drawing and painting. What would Audubon think of photography?

Yes, it does sound as though he was mostly self-trained, although it sounds like he did have some limited art education in France.

When you think about it, painting a bird of all things, how difficult! They are always on the go. They move so quickly. They are frightened so easily and take off. How to paint them?

It makes sense that Audubon had to kill most of the birds he drew, especially in his earlier stage. He'd have to have time, although apparently he drew quickly. I thought it was very innovative of him to create the wired structure that he stuck the birds on so he could place them in realistic poses.

Marni

HATS: I don't know why you were nervous. you always add so much to every discussion you're in.

I'm still behind, but enjoyed the discussion of the trip so much. travel was soo long and so hazardous then, yet people did it all the time.

I am startled that Audubon was so different from the person I've always pictured.This sophisticated Frenchman, good at everything, very social. I had pictured him as more like Alexander Wilson (I've just been reading that chapter) -- a solitary who wanted to be alone with his birds. I've always heard Wilson's name as a great ornithologist, but didn't know he was a contemporary of Audubon. I wonder why Audubon gets so much more credit? We'll probably find out.

There is a joke among people who study animals that when you do, you become more and more like the animal you study. (Jane Goodall used to claim that she was becoming more and more like a chimpanzee). When younger, I went on a lot of field trips to see birds. I noticed that the people who were really into it were as shy as the birds we were looking for. They would walk by themselves. I f you tried to talk to them, they would somehow melt away and disappear. As a sociologist, I was interested in these people, and found myself quietly observing them in the same way I observed the birds. I had always pictured Audubon as like that.

JoanK,

Now I am trying to picture the bird watchers!

Marni,

I do think the methods used by Audubon to model the birds are important. I would like to see what one of his "puppetry" contraptions looked like. Really, he had no other way in order to hold the birds still while he tried to draw and paint each one realistically. I think his unique methods prove his intelligence and determination. Audubon loved birds and used the best methods at hand to capture the likeness of the Kingfisher and all the other birds.

Was North America's bird population greater than across the sea? It seemed that there was such an abundance of everything in the new world.

JoanK: I'm so glad you are describing how you see Audubon. I was thinking maybe we could all come up with some adjectives to describe him because he is such a complex character.

I'll start: charming

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Hats: I can't find a picture of Audubon's mounting device. But, it sounds like it was a large board with pieces of wire sticking out of it all over so the the wires pierced the bird to hold it in place.

He painted/drew (pastels) his birds life-sized so that people could see what they truly looked like. I think this was one thing that made his bird pictures unique - they were so large. We'll see that even when his works were published, they were huge. His masterpiece, Birds of America, is the largest book in the Library of Congress.

Marni

I found the neatest thing! You know how Audubon carried la fontaine’s Fables around with him, even to America? And Rhodes said, "Audubon studied birds for the fables they enacted”?

I found la fontaine’s Fables on the internet!! You can read them online - part of the Gutenberg project. Here they are:

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/5300.html.utf8.gz

Marni

I wanted to see that book of fables. The book seemed so very important to Audubon. Marni, thanks for the link.

Thanks, Marni: I look forward to reading them.

There are too many birds mentioned to discuss them all, but I thought I might give pictures of ones that are discussed in detail.

Audubon always seems to have watched birds, but, according to our book, he seems to have resolved to learn to paint them realistically after watching the nesting of Eastern phoebe (p.12ff). That's interesting. This is an inconspicuous member of the Flycatcher family which many people live with their whole life and never notice.

Flycatchers live in what someone has called the "green room", the space in trees above the lowest branches, but below the canopy -- say 20-50 feet up. Many insects live there, and so do the birds that feed on insects. We rarely see them because we rarely look up. When you see a bird, perched on a branch, fly out, around in a circle and back to the same branch, it is probably a flycatcher catching insects.

he phoebe is perhaps the best known. It is one of the earliest Spring migrants: when you hear it's "phoebe phoebe" song, you know Spring is coming. It has an endearing habit: it wags its tail!

Thanks to Audubon, it became the first American bird to be banded. Here is a picture:

EASTERN PHOEBE

Harold, could you give that Texas link again?

For an overview of most any Texas History Subject on the Web the Handbook of Texas web published by the Texas Historical Society is the place to go. It includes an excellent subject search engine. Click Here for the Home page. For the Specific site I linked yesterday relative to the La Salle colony Click Here.

Jean I certainly agree with you regarding the need for more maps in the book. There is a map of the lower Mississippi on page 170 that I found useful.

Another peeve I found in reading and interpreting this book is the way that most dates are given in month and day without a notation of year which appears somewhere back from the page under study.. While this does not poise a problem for the continuing reader it is a problem for the researcher who after finding the event must often scan many pages backward to be sure of the year.

Joan K in message #175 wrote

I've always heard Wilson's name as a great ornithologist, but didn't know he was a contemporary of Audubon. I wonder why Audubon gets so much more credit? We'll probably find out.

From my reading of Chapter five which describes A’s Meeting with Alexander Wilson I’ve got the idea that Wilson could never accept Audubon as any thing but a competitor. Note the last sentence on page 68, on Wilson’s attitude as he was leaving, “Bitterly he expunged the handsome, successful young Frenchman (Audubon) from his record”

Earlier in the chapter Rhodes had indicated that Audubon’s bird drawings were already better than Wilson’s and at that time Audubon was a long way from obtaining his maturity as a bird artist. Audubon according to Rhodes used Wilson’s pictures only to identify specimens.

I have other evidence that Audubon and Wilson’s relationship was always one of antagonists and never collaborators. In the 1826 Journal on page 65 there is a footnote telling of Alexander Lawson the Scotch engraver who had discovered Alexander Wilson publicly called Audubon an “Imposter” at Philadelphia in 1824. He was questioning the authenticity of Audubon’s claim to have studied under certain artists in France. It seem that Audubon was not popular in Philadelphia at that time which was still Wilson’s turf. This unpopularity in Americas cultural Capital must certainly figured in Audubon’s decision to go England to publish his works.

JoanK: Thanks for the info about the phoebe. I don't think I have seen one, but I think I have heard phoebes. They have a wonderful distinctive sound. I thought that was so interesting about Audubon "banding" them and being the first in America to "band" birds.

Marni

Regarding our discussion of the points raised or implied from the focus questions, I think our posted coverage while unsystematically has applied to some extent to many of the questions. In particular I think we have centered on question 3 regarding immigrants rather well and the subject matter of many of the other has been hit at least indirectly. Perhaps now we might center on the question Audubon/Lucy courtship that deserves further examination.

The long delay in the marriage seems to have been occasioned by Lucy’s father requiring A to obtain his fathers written consent before giving his consent for Lucy to marry. This seems to me a convenient transfer of the responsibility for the delay to the Audubon family to achieve in the end Lucy’s fathers objective. Of course even a 21st century Father might want to delay the marriage of a very young daughter for a year or so. Come to think of it, it has happened in my family.

In this case A’s Father followed the Bakewell lead and delayed sending a written consent necessitating A’s taking the dangerous Atlantic crossing to France to obtain it. In the end it seems the courtship progressed during the period with A &Lucy even birding together studying bird nesting habits (was it swallows in the cave?--- HUMM----). Lucy even nursed A during his serious illness following his winter skating accident.

I’m not sure that A's returned with the written paternal consent, but he returned with a new business plan and a new business partner, Ferdinand Rozier. Illustrative of the danger of trans-Atlantic travel at the time, the Ship was stopped by an English Privateer. The ship passengers were robbed of gold, wine and food. Audubon managed to save the A&R Gold by hiding it under a reel of cable. Two Sailors were taken . The ship was allowed to continue on to New York (Question 7).

Did Audubon actually return with the Written consent? In any case the Marriage followed. I suppose the A/Lucy courtship pretty followed the pattern of the time. What are your comments on it?

Re John James' father's consent to marry Lucy....He did not consent when JJ went to France, if I recall correctly. His father said that if Audubon married, he would forfeit his inheritance. I believe JJ went ahead anyway when he was 22 and married Lucy, after approx 4 years of courtship, and married her because he was beyond the age of consent.

I was thinking about what the reasons were for both fathers to delay their marriage. There were probably many.

- I wonder if religion had anything to do with it? This was not mentioned as an objection and was not mentioned as an issue after the marriage. However, the Bakewells were Unitarians - fairly radical religion at the time (followers of Joseph Priestley, who was expelled from England? country for his beliefs, I think.?) Audubon was most likely Catholic. This could present a big problem for some.

- Audubon had not really settled into a career. The lead mine of Mill Grove was not a success. How was Audubon going to support a family?

- Audubon was said by some to be a dilettante. Lucy's family were quite wealthy, unusually well-educated. Probably Lucy's father was interested in a wealthy catch for his daughter, even though he liked Audubon. Lucy’s father said of JJ upon his return from France: “He is a very agreeable young man, but volatile as almost all Frenchmen are.”

I was in a list mood and made a list of Audubon traits mentioned in this section of the book. He was described as: always an instigator and a leader; a young hothead, vain, loved expensive clothes & horses, exaggerated, volatile, generous, handsome, had elegant figure, beautiful features, careful attention to dress, musician, good fencer, good dancer, performed slight of hand tricks, could plait baskets, high energy, strong, admirable marksman, expert swimmer, clever rider, walked swiftly & vigorously....

Women could not resist him!! I can see why!!

Then there was Lucy's wonderful remark about JJ after their marriage when she wrote to a friend: He “has a most excellent disposition which adds very much to the happiness of married life." [I love that!]

Marni

I found this to be wonderful:

Description by neighbor David Pawling: “Today I saw the swiftest skater I ever beheld; backwards and forwards he went like the wind, even leaping over large air-holes fifteen or more feet across, and continuing to skate without an instant’s delay. I was told he was a young Frenchman, and this evening I met him at a ball, where I found his dancing exceeded his skating; all the ladies wished him as a partner; moreover, a handsomer man I never saw, his eyes alone command attention; his name, Audubon, is strange to me.”

Marni

I found some interesting sites on the web. Here is a short but succinct description of Audubon by a Houston man. Very interesting view!!

http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi842.htm

Here's a good and brief article about the French Reign of Terror that Audubon and family lived through.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror

Here are some of Alexander Wilson's bird paintings so you can compare his work with Audubon's.

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~PUBLIC/wilson/front.html

Here's info about Mill Grove past and present and a colored version of the picture in our biography.

http://pa.audubon.org/centers_mill_grove.html

Marni

The University of Houston Audubon site that you linked is an interesting one though try as I might, I can't see how the biographer, John Chancellor could judge him only marginally literate. I don't see a marginally literate man arriving uninvited,unannounced, and unknown in England, selling himself and his birds to the Liverpool intellectual elite such as William Rathbone and William Roscoe.

The site mentions the John Chancellor Biography of Audubon that says was published in 1988s. According to the B&N catalog it was first released in 1978 but is now out of print. I was not aware of the Chancellor biography but knew of the earlier Alice Ford biography first published in 1964. I have not read it, but knew of it since the Author, Alice Ford, also edited the "1826 journal" that I have read and mentioned here previous. Both of the Ford books are now also out of print.

Every one; please check Marni's Alexander Wilson's pictures site, http://xroads.virginia.edu/~PUBLIC/wilson/front.html . A click on the URL will get a page with links labeled Volumes ! through 8. A click on any volume will show a picture that when clicked will lead to a page with a small picture and a text description of the bird. If you click the small picture again you will get an enlargement large enough to make a metal comparison of Wilson’s pictures with Audubon’s.

I definitely see Audubon’s as superiopr artistically. I will say, however, that I thought Wilson’s birds were posed very good. They just lacked detail and the color contrast somehow seemed unnatural.

It will be interesting to hear how each of you judge Wilson’s dawings?

Looking at Wilson's drawings from a standpoint of accuracy, and whether I could identify the bird from them, I found them quite good. The habit of drawing a number of unrelated species on the same page was very poor, though, and must have limited the usefullness of the books.

Thank you Marni for those wonderful links of the flatboats. i have seen some of those pictures before but they are more interesting to look at having read about JJA on the river.

Also, I was so glad to see the link for Mill Grove. We will have to go visit it, it's less than an hour from where we live. Did you notice that on that site it said that JJ got permission to marry when he was 20? That seems to differ from what Rhodes says. They didn't get married for four more years.....that we know for sure. I like Marni's tho't that religion may have been an issue. Catholics were not looked upon kindly, and often treated w/ hostility by most protestants at that time.

Harold and Marni have both asked for characterizations of JJA. I think his biographer may have fallen in love w/ him while writing about him, it's an awfully positive picture. My tho't was as i read these first chapters "the man is almost perfect!" Yes, why wouldn't women love him!?! He's what the young women these days call "eye-candy." And he was apparently a very nice guy.

Isn't it interesting that the idea of the volatile/arrogant/pushing Frenchman has not changed much? Does that mean there is some truth to the stereotype? Of course we can always find SOME ONE of any group who fits the group stereotype, i guess that's why steroetypes persist.

And Lucy and JJ's courtship belies the myth that couples were not allowed to be alone together before they were married. It sounds like they spent a great deal of time alone together. We see that in the Abigail and John Adams courtship also. Maybe that rule about chaperones become more pronounced later in the century when "Victorian" attitudes become so much more prudish.

I think i have seen the phoebe and may have mistaken it for a sparrow or a wren. We have so many of those here.......jean

I have always thought the impressment of sailors very interesting. What a fearful time to cross the seas. It is hard to think of the British and Americans going to such lengths to hurt one another today. The British, Leopard, fired on the U.S. Cheasapeake. Some sailors died in that attack. I suppose A was very aware of these attacks as he headed back across the sea. The impressment of soldiers against their will seems very illegal. A put his own self in danger to go back overseas to talk about his marriage proposal with his father. "That he was willing to risk conscription was a measure of his love for her."

I especially enjoyed reading about the cave incident. I think during those times courtship must have been far more stimulating, even fun. Lucy and A. shared talks about nature, observed nature and life in different countries. So different from discussng just an upcoming movie or going to the mall to meet friends. Times certainly have changed.

I like the fact that Rhodes described the odd way letters were written. Lucy wrote a letter on one side. When her father decided to add some words to the letter, he wrote between her lines of the letter. I can't really describe the way father and daughter shared their words in one letter. Maybe someone else can describe it better.

Afterwards, the letter was folded to make an envelope. I am seeing the process, I think, as I poste this here. Why were letters written in this way? Was exportation difficult because of the troubles between Britain and America? I remember the Stamp Act. Was their some sort of paper tax for Americans? Are we past the years of the declared American Revolution. I am lost in a mound of unknown dates. Was this to save on paper for another reason? It is interesting the way in which letters were written.

I had to go out on some appointments and errands yesterday. I could not wait to get back to A. I haven't looked at all the links. I have read the comments. I do enjoy reading the links and comments more than once.

I will not name each person. I will just say thank you for going to the trouble of posting so many links and good information in the posts. This discussion is so exciting!

Harold,

I think you had more links too. Thank you. Thanks for Keeping me focused. I can see one bird wing, the name of a war and I am off on another course. Thank goodness for discussion leaders.

Marni,

The links are just great!! I can't contain myself. Neither can I go to bed. This discussion is yummy!! If I can use Jean's words the links are like "eye candy."

JoanK,

Thank you for your links too. I tried to write all the birds down from chapters one through five. I stopped. There are so many listed. I wanted to see all and everyone.

Too bad we have to end the discussion in a month.

Hi, folks! I am stopping by for just a moment to post this note about Mippy. Ginny posted it on the Latin 101 site:

"Aux MIPPY reports she is well but has no internet access and is glad to be alive. She will be visiting her children in CA till Monday and says tell everybody hello and she's glad to be here!"

I'm off to New London to visit my parents. Be back tonight!

Marni

Marni,

Thank you for the post about Mippy.

I don’t think Audubon was a practicing Catholic, certainly not after he came to America. I don’t remember Rhodes mentioning his religion much at all. He tells us that Audubon and Lucy were Married at Flatland Ford by a Presbyterian Minister. He gives only a few comments on religious Catholic events in France and Protestant revivals in America particularly after the earth quake that shock the Mississippi valley in 1811. Rhodes tells us that the event caused a turn to religion in particular increasing the number of Methodists. I suspect that Audubon fit in quite well with the Bakewells Unitarianism.

On July 30, 1826 from the “1826 Journal” we are told that Audubon attended the Sunday service at the Church of the Asylum of the Blind in Liverpool. He seems to have been very affected by the service, writing some 500 descriptive words about the service that day. This Liverpool church appears to be Protestant Episcopal, Church of England based on a short web published transaction of the Historic Society of Lancashire and Cheshire. That was the only Google search hit on this church name. I note also that Audubon’s contacts in Liverpool and Manchester (the Rathbones, Roscoe’s and Greg’s) seemed at least Unitarian inclined. Though they had Quaker, Methodist and Church of England roots from what Audubon tell us in his “1826 Journal,” Religion does not seem to have dominated their lives.

I think perhaps we might be a bit critical of Rhodes for not covering this aspect of his subject’s life in greater detail.

I have been looking at Alexander Wilson's birds. I agree with JoanK. I don't like so many birds on one page. It's difficult to concentrate on the features of one bird. It seems a little bit chaotic to have that many birds on one page.

There are wildlife books, that we have now, which portray more than one bird on a page. I think these are the small bird guidebooks. Maybe I am wrong. I can't speak for how well Alexander Wilson drew each bird. I am just beginning to learn bird recognition.

HATS: yes, this discussion is fun, isn't it.

Modern guidebooks do have more than one bird on a page. But what they do is put closely related birds (birds in the same family) together. Birds in the same family have family resemblences, sometimes very close (for example my hummingbirds, or owls, or woodpeckers etc. Many of our common names for birds are family names, not species names). By seeing them together, you quickly learn to recognize the family of a bird. I knew my hummingbird WAS a hummingbird (member of the hummingbird family) at once, even though I had no idea which species of hummingbird. Note: in our English bird-naming system, we sometimes just add an adjective to the family name to give the species name i.e. ruby-throated hummingbird, screech owl, downy woodpecker)

Having related birds on the same page also lets you compare and figure out which one you saw. But unrelated birds on the same page is just confusing.

Hats: I'm glad you discussed the impressment of sailors. We really had a glimpse of the times as Rhodes described Audubon's sea voyage back to America from France. Some rather harrowing events occurred on that journey that made the normally dangerous journey even more so - the British impressed men for their navy, a man was killed in a duel, privateers stole valuables.....

Between 1803 and 1812, the British impressed approximately 10,000 Americans forcing them to work on British ships. This was one of the causes of the War of 1812. Here's an article about British impressment of Americans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressment

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Dueling

I became interested in dueling when I read about two American heroes who were killed in duels: Alexander Hamilton, killed by Aaron Burr in a duel in 1804, just a year after Hamilton's son was killed in a duel. Hamilton was only 49. A superb description of the duel and events leading up to it and following it are described in the WONDERFUL book Alexander Hamilton by Ron Chernow. Naval hero Stephen Decatur also was killed in a duel when he was 41. Here are some interesting articles about dueling.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian/issues97/oct97/dueling_full_1.html

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05184b.htm

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Privateers

Together, France and Britain privateers seized nearly 1,500 American vessels between 1803 and 1812.

"Privateering was a wartime practice in which a belligerent power would authorize its citizens to operate privately owned ships in campaigns against enemy shipping. Motivation for participating in these ventures was partly patriotism, but most the allure came from converting the prizes (captured ships and cargo) into money. Privateers were distinguished from pirates in that the former were issued "letters of marque and reprisal," official government papers authorizing these campaigns.

Privateering was especially important to nations with small navies, whose activities were thus supplemented. America benefited from this practice in both the War for Independence and the War of 1812. Numerous abuses occurred over the years, however; it was often an easy step to turn from preying upon belligerent ships to non-belligerent ones. Many privateers found it to be financially rewarding to become pirates.

The practice of privateering was outlawed by the international community in the Declaration of Paris in 1856."

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h629.html

Marni

Marni,

I had no idea so many sailors were impressed. Ten thousand men is not a small number. No wonder the War of 1812 had to happen! This practice must have put the whole country in an uproar. The person you love goes to sea and it's no guarantee that he won't write a letter saying he is now serving in a war and on the British side at that. The links you have given are wonderful! I am going to reread the one or ones mentioned by Harold at the beginning of the discussion. I am going to slowly read yours too, Marni.

Marni, these are all great titles: Dueling, Privateering and the ones on the War of 1812.

I didn't know Stephen Decatur had been killed in a duel too. What a silly way to die. Two men just unable to agree not to disagree. I guess their egos would become involved.

JoanK, that is helpful having related birds on one page. I would find that very helpful. Just splattering any bird next to another bird makes no sense at all. I think A's way of painting birds shows his love for birds. He didn't want to just make money on a subscription. He wanted to make close contact with birds because of their beauty and habits. I'm not sure whether Alexander Wilson's motive was not one of greed.

I can see that having one family to a page would help me or somebody else learn to identify birds quickly.

Marni,

I had no idea so many sailors were impressed. Ten thousand men is not a small number. No wonder the War of 1812 had to happen! This practice must have put the whole country in an uproar. The person you love goes to sea and it's no guarantee that he won't write a letter saying he is now serving in a war and on the British side at that. The links you have given are wonderful! I am going to reread the one or ones mentioned by Harold at the beginning of the discussion. I am going to slowly read yours too, Marni.

Marni, these are all great titles: Dueling, Privateering and the ones on the War of 1812.

I didn't know Stephen Decatur had been killed in a duel too. What a silly way to die. Two men just unable to agree not to disagree. I guess their egos would become involved.

JoanK, that is helpful having related birds on one page. I would find that very helpful. Just splattering any bird next to another bird makes no sense at all. I think A's way of painting birds shows his love for birds. He didn't want to just make money on a subscription. He wanted to make close contact with birds because of their beauty and habits. I'm not sure whether Alexander Wilson's motive was not one of greed.

I can see that having one family to a page would help me or somebody else learn to identify birds quickly.

I knew Britain was a magnificent sea power. I just had no idea that we fought with such a small amount of ships. I give the U.S. credit for trying to fight against so many ships.

"The United States Navy consisted of 17 ships, the largest being three 44-gun frigates. Ships of the line, zero. At Trafalgar, 21 October 1805, the Royal Navy had 27 ships of the line, the French and Spanish 33. If the whole United States Navy had been there, it hardly would have been noticed. In 1812, the Royal Navy had over 1000 ships, 500 of which were on station at any time. The United States was like a terrier clamped on an ankle of Britain while it was engaged in this gigantic world war, not much more than a noisy nuisance."

Look at the difference in manpower!!"The population of the United States in the Census of 1810 was 7,240,000. The population of Great Britain in 1811 was 12,000,000." However, this doesn't surprise me. There had to be a small amount of people to start a new nation. Not everybody left the major power, Britain, and came to the shores of America. Those who did come were not all united by that Revolutionary spirit.

I had no idea this was the main goal of the War of 1812."The aim of the War of 1812 was the annexation of Canada." All I can see or knew about was Dolley Madison's desperate struggle to save, I think, George Washington's portrait from the walls of the White House. Unfortunately, didn't all or parts of the White House burn down that horrible night?

"The aim of the War of 1812 was the annexation of Canada."

Thank you Marni for the site regarding the British practice of stopping U.S. ships and impressing crew members into RN service. This was certainly a major factor causing the U.S declaration of War.

Those of you who remember the 1939 (thereabout) Charles Laughton, Clark Gable film version of Mutiny on the Bounty, might recall the opening scene in the sailors bar where Mr Christian with a squad of marines filled out the Bounty crew.

As to the number of impressed American seamen that is the first time I have heard of such a high number. In one place the site puts the number at 6,000 but it says nothing about the source. I guess I am skeptical about the high number since in most instances the number taken in any individual incident was just 2 or 3. Remember that was the case mentioned in our book when JJ's ship returning from Europe was stopped and two sailors were taken. At that rate 3,000 incidents would be required to reach that total. I would want to know more about the source for this number before accepting it as historical fact. In any case high number is not important, even a small number of such incidents is an insult to national sovereignty and under the custom of the day warranting a war.

1. This section and the book are entitled “The Making of an American.” What might have been regarded as characteristic of Americans in the early 19th century? Today?

So far we have pretty much neglected this question. Base on the the descriptions included in this week's five chapter assignment how would you answer it?.

Hats: I've heard the War of 1812 referred to as "the forgotten war." It's one of those things they sort of skipped over lightly in many history classes. I read more about it when I read biographies of Stephen Decatur, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison.

One interesting thing I found out was that the New England states seriously considered seceding from the union over the war. Representatives from the NE states met to discuss this in Hartford at our old state house right next to the building my husband works in (oldest state house in America.) NE didn't want trade disrupted by war any more than it already was because many in NE owed their livelihood to trade.

Britain truly was master of the seas at that time. I love the description you gave of America being like a terrier clamped onto Britain's ankle! Apparently, we didn't have the money to fund the building of a navy, or government leaders didn't want to commit to it. This had been going on since the Revolution. It's interesting reading letters by John Paul Jones bitterly complaining of U.S. govt. pecuniary attitude and how difficult it was to get a ship and supplies to fight the enemy.

America relied on its privateers in war to a great extent. It built only a small number of ships. But, our shipping industry was extremely advanced and creative. It created great innovations in ship design, resulting in marvels like our Baltimore schooners and fast, powerful frigates like the USS Constitution ("Old Ironsides.")

I wanted to place a link to the "virtual tour" of Old Ironsides, a fabulous tour online of all levels of the ship with an explanation of everything aboard. But I can't get into the site today.

Marni

I don't know about anyone else, but I am having a great deal of trouble and couldn't get into SeniorNet without my password. I'm not getting to the correct place. Something is weird.

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Harold: I have seen several different numbers of approx. #s of men impressed, also. I don't know what the sources are. But, all of the numbers are high even though some are higher than others.

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Harold: I just remembered I never answered your question about what type of camera I have. It is an inexpensive Kodak DC215 Digital Zoom camera, something recommended in the newspaper. I've had it for years. I don't put it on high resolution, which would make crisper pictures, because I like to send photos over the internet to friends. They don't send easily if they are too high resolution. It works for me!!!

Marni

My husband and i went to the new Kimmel Center in Phila last night to hear the "Dixis Hummingbirds." What a good time! They are a Black gospel quartet who started in PHila before WWII. The lead singer, Irv Tucker has been singing w/ the group for 67 (!) years!! They were a favorite group of my husband's father, so my husband has been listening to them all his life. Of course, the other three are not originals, but still very good.......jean

Marni,

That is so interesting. I have never heard of the War of 1812 being called "the forgotten war." I don't remember teachers spending much time on that war. I remember the Civil War and the Revolutionary War and a little bit about the French and Indian War. I suppose this is why I find the War of 1812 so fascinating.

I remember hearing the word "secession" only regarding the Civil War. It is really interesting what you posted about the New England states thinking of secession over the War of 1812. I know little or nothing about Stephen Decatur. I will look for a biography about him.

Marni, I can't take credit for the terrier quote. That is a quote from Harold's links in the heading, the ones about the War of 1812. All of those quotes about the number of sailors,etc. came from the links Harold posted that should be read.

I would love to read John Paul Jones letters. I wondered why we didn't build up a navy during this time. Maybe tomorrow you can get into the site about "Old Ironsides.

Thank you for all this good information. It just adds to the background world of John James Audubon.

Seems like I can now get into SeniorNet ok. I had been working with an SBC DSL tech person because my internet kept disconnecting. Maybe the tech's PC was showing up instead of mine when I logged in. I've rebooted and things seem ok. Wow, it took over an hour with that tech!! What a nuisance!!

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Mabel: Your evening sounds so fun!! I love that kind of music. Do you ever listen to The Black Boys of Alabama? I have a big collection of their music.

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Hats: I got very interested in the naval activities of America and Great Britain in the American Revolution, Napoleonic wars, Barbary wars, and War of 1812. Reading about some of our naval heroes like John Paul Jones and Stephen Decatur was better than fiction! Very exciting stuff!

Well, I'm off to check out the new Trader Joe's store in West Hartford.

Marni

Yay!! I got into the virtual tour site! The USS Constitution is the oldest commissioned warship afloat in the world! If you ever have the chance, go on the real live tour in Boston where the ship is berthed in the Charlestown Navy Yard. But, the virtual tour is fascinating if you'd like to see what a large American frigate was like in the late 18th/early 19th century.

http://www.ussconstitution.navy.mil/VirtualTour.htm

Picture USS Constitution

Now I'm really off to shop. (Have to drag my husband away from raking leaves.)

Marni

I think in both the 19th century and the 21st century Americans like to think of themselves as "rugged indiviualists" but the 19th century people were more accurate when saying that. When i read of people traveing across the oceans or across the country before the 20th century i think of how it would be for the remaining family members. You wouldn't hear from the travelers for perhaps months or years. You wouldn't know if they were safe or alive. Messages could only travel as fast as a person could carry them. Many people could not read or write, so you may never hear from them again. We think the astronauts were courageous, but they have nothing on the pre-20th century travelers.

I remind my students that there were no good mail systems, or even telegraph, let alone cell phones. They are so used to being in constant contact w/ anyone at any time, it gives them a shock to recognize what a lack of communication there was.

I think we are less "rugged individuals" today because the gov'ts take care of us in so many ways, just starting w/ roads and bridges, tunnels thru mountains, than going to fairly good mail systems, regulations of all kinds, that keep us largely safe say at restaurants, hotels, in trains and planes. etc. Then there is social security, and those other big items......as i do over and over again to my classes, i repeat, "we do live in the best of times - not perfect, but best"..........jean

Jean: It must be extremely interesting and challenging for you to create a picture for your students of life in the past. We really do live in a world of instant communication and fast travel.

We seniors communicating on SeniorNet have personally lived in a period of huge change in communications and travel, even though it may pale compared to the experience of someone who was born in, say, 1900. We saw the arrival of space travel, PCs, jets, cellphones (as you mentioned), TV, teleconferencing, email. Youngsters today grew up with most of these things, although they've seen the arrival of text messaging, cellphones with cameras and TVs, digital cameras, high speed catamaran ferries....What's next?

It's amazing how quickly we become dependent on new technology - can't do without it - wonder how we ever managed without it. I remember, working for an insurance company, when we switched from a key-punch computer system to a disk storage system. To obtain a client's account value with the key-punch system, we had to order it one day and wait overnight to get it the next day. We were amazed to be able to obtain an account value the same day we requested it.

The change in travel speed really hits you when you read that it took Audubon many weeks to cross the Atlantic at a time when there was no telegraph, no phone. It took weeks for Audubon and Lucy to travel from Mill Grove to Louisville.

It really got me thinking when I read that the Panama Canal wasn't finished until 1914. Until the 20th century, to travel from New York to San Francisco, you had to either go around the Cape, or travel across land at the Isthmus of Panama, or travel across the U.S. Such dangers no matter what choice you made. And to think that today by plane it's just a matter of hours. Or just send an email or dial the phone.

Marni

Hats: You mentioned that you couldn't envision how letters were written conserving space using a single sheet.

I picture a person writing on one side of a page of thin paper. There will be spaces between each row of words. When the writer reaches the bottom of the page and runs out of room, he/she flips the page around so that the bottom line is now at the top of the page, upside down. The writer continues the letter, writing in the blank rows, filling up the spaces between the rows. The back of the paper is not used for the body of the letter.

To send the letter, the writer folds up the letter neatly so that the writing is covered up. The blank back of the page becomes the envelope.

To read the letter, the reader holds a card over the letter, revealing only the top line, then moves the card down two lines to the next row of words going in the same direction as the top row. And so on.

When I was in grammar school, we used to write to pen pals in Japan. We wrote on special thin paper for sending airmail - writing on only one side of the paper. We'd fold it up and write the name/address on what had now become the envelope. The paper and envelope were just one thin piece of lightweight paper. This was to save on postage. Postage cost was based on weight of letter, distance, and, I believe, on difficulty of delivery.

I imagine 19th century mail postal charges were similarly based. In America, "postage stamps became available in 1847. Prior to this, mailers had the option of sending their letters and having the recipients pay the postage until 1855, when prepayment became compulsory."

History of the U.S. Postal Service:

http://www.usps.com/history/his2.htm

http://www.postalmuseum.si.edu/exhibits/2_exhibits.html

Marni

I remember when I was about 8 years old we were living in Houston when the USS Constitution visited Houston. It was at a dock near the turning basin. I was impressed by the height of the masts. Of course the sails were furled at the dock. I also remember going below to the gun deck to see the cannons in rows pointing out from both sides. I understand they no longer take the old hull to sea but it is permanently berthed at Baltimore. Has anyone seen her there recently?

Click Here for the USS Constitution Home Page.

Another ship I visited in Houston about the same time was the modern cruiser, USS Houston. This ship was sunk early in December 1941 just weeks after Pearl Harbor along with a Dutch and English Cruisers when the three allied ships were a attempting to stop a Japanese force attacking the Dutch East Indies. One of the Houston’s crew was an older boy from down the street who had enlisted in the navy after graduating from high school the preceding May. This was the only person I personally knew who was killed in the war.

Harold: I visited the USS Constitution this spring for the first time. It's berthed in the Charlestown Navy Yard in Boston. The ship stays year-round in her berth and visitors walk aboard and receive a guided tour by the navy. Once a year, she does a "turn-around sail" in Boston Harbor where she "sails" out (is towed, I believe), turns around and is berthed again with her other side facing out. She is turned once a year to expose her other side to the elements. Visiting this wonderful ship brings tears to your eyes. It is just spectacular.

Here's info from the Naval Historical Center about what I believe was her last voyage:

"On 21 July 1997, as part of her 200th birthday celebration, Constitution set sail for the first time in over a century. She was towed from her usual berth in Boston to Marblehead, then set six sails (jibs, topsails, and driver), moved unassisted for an hour and rendered a 21-gun salute.

The modern day role of "Old Ironsides" is that of "ship of state". With a mission of promoting the Navy to millions of visitors and observers each year, the crew of 55 modern-day sailors participates in ceremonies, educational programs and special events while keeping the ship open to visitors and providing tours. She is still a fully commissioned vessel in the US Navy fleet. The crew are all active-duty sailors and the assignment is considered special duty in the Navy. Traditionally, the duty of captain of the vessel is assigned to an active duty Navy commander."

Marni

In the early 19th century I see the characteristic of Americans as one of courage. Since this is the melting pot most Americans came from across the seas for one reason or another reason. Perhaps, these American fled here to avoid religious persecution in another place. Others might have come here to avoid a war or revolution. Others were brought here to join the mounting ranks of American slaves. For whatever reason these people became Americans, they were courageous.

These Americans knew little or nothing about America. Most of what they heard in their homes or churches or on their farms or in the local tavern came by word of mouth or some very small one page newspaper. These new Americans, looking for a new land, took the plunge and came here. I call that courage. I think of these Americans as explorers. They explored this land and discovered a new America. A place rich in land, fauna and flora.

These Americans needed courage to face unknown dangers. Their were new people to meet like the the Native Americans. Many hidden dangers lay in the topography. I suppose Lewis and Clark constantly faced rugged mountains, raging river, dense forests and so forth.

Also, just crossing the sea was a danger in itself. Many days or months of travel are not comfortable. Neither were these ships without their share of disease. Yes, I see the people of Early America as courageous.

Today I see Americans as still possessing that same trait of courage. We honor the past Americans who built our land. This honor is shown through our courage today. For older Americans it takes a lot of courage to remain in control of their lives while learning new technology. New technology is intimidating. Yet, Older Americans continue to drive, continue to use new library systems which have computers instead of a card with dates stamped on it. Older Americans fly in airplanes. Older Americans allow and trust their doctors that new inventions like the MRI are safe.

One of our older courageous Americans died this week, Ms. Rosa Parks. She is one of many Americans who have shown their courage by rejecting some injustice. Ms. Rosa Parks refused to sit in the back of the bus. Women in the Sufragette movement fought so that the women of today could vote.

Lastly, the astronauts continue to show courage. I think they show brazen courage. These astronauts strike out for new worlds. I remember and will never forget Christa McCullife and other Americans who have given their life to explore new worlds. These worlds are as unproven and new as the world of 19th century America. Yet, astronauts continue to go in space not knowing whether they will return to family and friends. There is no guarantee.

I think courage is a vein that runs deep in each American.

Thank you for the links for the virtual tour. I am going to bookmark those sites along with the ones about the postal service.

Thanks for describing the letter writing too. How could I forget those thin envelopes. My uncle was a missionary in Borneo, China. He sent us letters on that thin paper all the time. I can not remember whether he wrote on both sides and inbetween lines, etc.

Jean, I am glad you enjoyed hearing the Dixie Hummingbirds along with your husband. Hummingbirds do remind you of another type of Hummingbirds, people who sing well.

Marni,

I hope you enjoyed your shopping. I had to do a lot of shopping too. I had to get some bulbs, mums and pansies. The weather was beautiful. The trees are changing here. It's hard not to drive off the road as another one catches your eye.

Hi to you, too. Thank you for reminding us of the courage which is our heritage.

I was very saddened to hear of the death of Rosa Parks. She was indeed a very brave person. We are all in her debt.

Indeed, It was a great American lady who died and was buried last week. She was certainly a modern example of the early 19th century American courage that Hats in message #217 observed in Audubon and his American Contemporaries. Thank you Hats for reminding us

Regarding Old Iron Sides I , I goofed on its current location. I don’t know how I got the Idea it was at Baltimore. I suppose it was Baltimore’s proximity to the War of 1812 action there. In any case now I know that it is at Boston.

I found the self-guided tour down load interesting. Apparently it was 1933 or 34 when I saw it at Houston as the down load shows it on a three-coast tour between 1931 and 34. Apparently it was under tow on this long tour as it also says it actually moved under sail in 1997 for the first time in 116 years. That would have been about the time it ceased service as a training ship at the Naval Academy.

I have an interesting framed page from the March 31, 1877 Harper’s Weekly with a picture captioned, “The New United States Frigate. “Trenton”—Drawn by Granville Perkins.” This is a black and white etching type 11 X 14 inch drawing actually cut from the printed 1877 magazine. It shows the Frigate at sea under sail. Though it is similar in size and sail arrangement to the Constitution its hull shape particularly the bow is different, and obviously while the towering three masts with furled sails remains its primary propulsion source a close observation of the deck area amidships under the sails reveals a low stack exhaust from the below deck steam boiler driving auxiliary steam engines.

Hats: Well said!!!!

Marni

Hi Harold and Marni,

Harold, that is a treasure. To have an etching from a Harper Weekly published in 1877 is wonderful. That is an antique! That it is not a copy makes it more wonderful.

All of you sure are sharing some wonderful details to this book. Marni, thanks again for going to the trouble to get the link for the virtual tour pampthlet.

I can't spell pampthlet. I just know it's spelled wrong. I better go look it up. Just so I will know in the future.

I have been looking at the birds again in the book. The Painted Bunting and Carolina Paroquet are so beautiful! The Passenger Pigeon is beautiful too. Are Passenger Pigeons extinct now? Are these the pigeons that passed messages?

Passenger pigeons are extinct, as are, I believe, Carolina paroquets. I read that passenger pigeons are believed to once have been probably the most numerous bird on the planet. I have not read anything about it carrying messages, though. I read the passenger pigeon was supposed to have looked somewhat similar to a mourning dove. I have loads of mourning doves in my yard spring and summer. They don't look like passenger pigeons to me because they are a lovely, almost iridescent, gray-mauve color, just lovely, and make the most beautiful mournful cry, which is where their name comes from.

It's shocking to read Audubon's description of the thousands upon thousands of passenger pigeons flocking with hunters shooting hundreds at a time. I read in an article (link below) that when the telegraph was invented, people who spotted passenger pigeons would telegraph their whereabouts to others who would go to kill them. They were shipped east. I guess they were a delicacy to some.

Here's something sad: "The last Passenger Pigeon, named Martha, died alone at the Cincinnati Zoo at about 1:00 pm on September 1, 1914. Who could have dreamed that within a few decades, the once most numerous bird on Earth would be forever gone?"

http://www.wbu.com/chipperwoods/photos/passpigeon.htm

Picture of Mourning Dove

Sound of mourning dove (turn up volume): http://www.matthewjcook.com/personal/dove.shtml

Carolina Paroquet: http://www.songbird.org/birds/extinct/carpark.htm

Marni

Holy cow! I just read the mourning dove article and saw it is "the most abundant dove in the United States and also the most widely hunted and harvested game bird." It's not allowed to be hunted for sport in CT and most of New England, though, the article says.

Wow, I have jillions of them in my yard and thought they were just common things. I had no idea anyone would eat one.

Marni

My husband just told me that it was carrier pigeons that were used to send messages.

Here's info about the carrier pigeon carrying messages: http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00451/carrierpigeons.htm

Here's "Cher Ami," the carrier pigeon who was awarded the French "Croix de Guerre"!!: http://www.si.edu/resource/faq/nmah/cherami.htm

Marni

I have a friend who has said she would never make it on a wagon train across the plains, that she can't go anywhere where there isn't toilet paper and room service - we are so spoiled, but there are still a lot of people w/ great courage. Weren't the tributes to Rosa Parks wonderful? She's one person most of my students know about before they get to my class.

marni - thanks for passenger pigeon link, i didn't realize they were so large. The passage in the book was so well written, i enjoyed it so much. It reminded me that somewhere in my reading i read a passage of a writer talking about the Delaware River area in the 1700's. He/she said that there were so many water fowl that it seemed you could walk across their backs to the other side of the river. I tho't it was a great exaggeration, but maybe it was only a slight exaggeration. The other statement i remember was from one of the American Experience PBS series, narrated by David McCullough, where in talking about the forestation once you got past the eastern shore, again in the 1600/1700's, that a squirrel could walk from the east coast to the Mississippi on the tree tops. I can hear David's distinctive voice saying those words even now.

Aren't the big-horned owls also extinct?

Is the ivory-billed woodpecker the one they tho't was extinct, but was recently sighted?

There have been a several "new" bits of information for me in this book: i didn't know that Charles Peale had had a natural history museum in the Pa House (Independence Hall) and i had never heard of the earthquakes in the Mississippi Valley. Philadelphia has a wonderful natural history museum now named The Franklin Institute, of course. We have Ben to thank for so much in PHila. He's why, as Rhodes states,"The city was paved and lighted. Water flowed in wooden pipes..." He was also responsible for the Library, the Univ of Pa, the Pa Hospital, the fire and police companies and fire insurance, along w/ all those dozens of inventions.

Harold - the USS Constitution was docked at Baltimore for a long time, i think it moved in the 1980's. I remember taking our children there in the early to mid-80's. It was just getting ready to move to Boston. They got to tour it and a WWII submarine. What an eye-opener for them.

I'm a little bit ahead in my reading, but JJA just gets more and more "perfect," my goodness, such a brave, agile, assertive, seemingly agreeable unless crossed, interesting man .......jean

Yes, it was the carrier or homing pigeon that was used to send military messages as late as WW I and even WW II. This is different specie from the Passenger pigeon that is extinct..

When I was a kid I raised homing pigeons and was a member of a club that had organized racing programs. (Mine generally made it back home but I can’t recall ever winning). The great flocks of pigeons that inhabit our city parks today are the ill-bred feral descendents of homing pigeons from flocks like mine. They would appear to be in no danger of extinction. Click Here for a JJ's picture of the Passenger Pigeon.

Jean, thank you for the information on the Constitutions previously being based in Baltimore. That would explain my thinking it was there.

Jean: I haven't been able to find anything on the internet about the big-horned owls. Only info about the great horned owl pops up and that bird does not seem to be extinct. Did anyone else find out?

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Yes, the ivory-billed woodpecker is the bird thought to be extinct until recently. Here's a link to a site that is listed in our Web Resources:

http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA/demo/account/Ivory-billed_Woodpecker/

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You live in a wonderfully rich historic city, Jean. Ben Franklin certainly did add so much to Philadelphia and to the rest of the country. I love reading about him. I always find out something interesting that he invented or was involved in.

Recently, I was shocked to read that Franklin's son William Franklin, who was governor of New Jersey when the American Revolution broke out, was thrown into prison for several years during the war because he was a Tory. Supposedly, he was placed in "Old" Newgate Prison in Granby, CT, where he was forced into solitary confinement for a long period during which time he lost his teeth and his hair. His father did not visit him. I toured Old Newgate Prison this summer and asked about William Franklin. Guides there said they did not think he had been held in Old Newgate Prison, but had been in another prison in Litchfield, CT. I have not been able to confirm this.

Marni

Harold: That must have been fun racing pigeons. Your story makes me think of one of my favorite movies, On The Waterfront. Remember Terry Malloy (Marlon Brando) with his pet pigeons up on the roof of his tenement building?

This is wonderful! I am learning so much about birds. I have heard the Mourning Doves call somewhere. The sound is so familiar. I could listen to the Mourning Doves song all day. It's not an excited song. It's a calm sound.

Now I know the Passenger Pigeon is different from the Carrier Pidgeon. Harold, I bet you really enjoyed your Homing Pigeons. What a great hobby! All of the habits of the birds are so exciting. No wonder Audubon loved his work.

I hate reading about any extinct bird. It's just too sad.

I just read in the newspaper about the tornado that hit the midwest early this morning. Another natural disaster in 2005.

There was a little map along with the article. It seems the tornado first touched just next to Henderson, Kentucky. "The tornado, the deadliest to hit Indiana since 1974, struck a horse racing track near Henderson, Ky., then crossed into Indiana..."

Henderson, KY, is where Audubon and partner set up their first store. It is also where Audubon drew the ivory-billed woodpecker.

Marni,

Thanks for reminding us. That tornado was terrible! The tornado hit while most people were asleep.

I have been reading about the earthquake A experienced while traveling. I can't figure it out. That earthquake hit more than one state didn't it? I think Audubon described it really well. I like Audubon's writing style. He could have been a writer as well as a artist.

Marni,

Your name is on the homepage with a quote. I felt so proud to see your name.

The Audubon on Line Birds of America Site has a page for Extinct Birds. Click Here As I understand it this is a list of of Audubon painted birds that are now extinct. Of course it includes the Passenger Pigeon, but the great horned owl is not on the list.

In all only six of JJ's birds are now extinct with 4 more on the endangered list. I note that there are encouraging reports on the Whooping Crane that now has come back from a population of about 1/2 dozen individuals to several hundred.

Tomorrow we will go to the Week 2 Schedule with a new set of focus questions in the heading on chapters 6 through 10. Today will be an opportunity to post remaining comments, questions and perhaps conclusions regarding the first 5 chapers, our first week's schedule.

Harold,

Thank you for the link to the Extinct Birds.

Marni,

Thank you for bringing up Henderson, Ky. When I heard the name of the town Henderson on the news, I did not relate it to the place where Audubon had spent time. I have been going over his travels around and about that area.

Rhodes writes about how Audubon depended on his gun and his fishing rod to feed his family. One time Audubon caught a catfish with a perch hooked inside of the catfish. The family ate the perch and gave the catfish to neighbors.

I didn't find that shocking. I did find it shocking that a catfish could swallow a suckling pig!! In my book it is in the chapter titled Alexander Wilson. Here is a quote.

"In Audubon's Louisville days, his Shippingport friend Nicholas Berthoud supplied him with an even better fishing story: a catfish Berthoud caught on a trotline in the deep pool below the Falls of the Ohio that he opened in Audubon's presence proved to have swallowed a whole suckling pig.)"

Isn't that something?? I just can't imagine. I guess fish were really, really big.

Hats I suspect those Mississippi and even lower Ohio River Catfish were frequently over 50 pounds in Audubon's time. They would yield a lot of meat. Today we don't consider large catfish in excess of even 5 pounds very good. The grew to near 5 lbs in my 3/4 acre Guadalupe County pound, but frankly I did not relish them over even 3 pounds. I let friends catch them and now there are only bass that are harder to catch. Another problem with the catfsh is that they are a pain to clean and prepare for the kitchen,

I was surprised about the size of the catfish, too. The catfish fillets we find in our grocery store are very small.

There is a wonderful description of a large catfish in the novel Cold Mountain which takes place in North Carolina. One of the characters struggles to catch it. The catfish is as big as the man and and he has to grab the catfish by wrapping his arms around the fish and holding onto it. The two struggle for a long time and both become exhausted.

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Harold: I know what you mean about how difficult it is to clean some fish. Shad are popular around here (Windsor, CT). They are migratory fish who swim up and down the Connecticut River. They return up the river in late spring and many people fish for them around here. Windsor has an annual Shad Festival with a fishing contest ending with a festival on our town green.

Many people love to eat shad, a dark-meat fish, but it has an unbelievable number of bones. It takes a special talent to bone a shad. I can't do it. Some people simply cook the shad until its bones are soft and then eat the bones along with the fish.

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Harold: Thanks for the link to the Audubon Society's list of extinct birds. I thought there would be more birds on it. The ivory-billed woodpecker is not in either the extinct or endangered list. I wonder why?

Hats: I didn't even realize I was quoted on the Home Page! Thanks for letting me know!

Marni

I actually live in South Jersey,but just 12 miles from center city Philadelphia, so we spent a good deal of time there.

Ben Franklin's son was a royal governor of NJ and stayed loyal to the king during the revolution. One of his homes was in what is now Willingboro, NJ, about 8 miles from me and a second was in Burlington, NJ, about 10 miles away, which was actually the official capitol of West Jersey. He was appointed governor after the WEst and East Jerseys had been combinded, so he also had a house in Perth Amboy. Because he stayed a loyalist, he was taken from his home in Perth Amboy and imprisoned in Litchfield, Ct. His English wife, Elizabeth, stayed in Perth Amboy for a while, but was terrified and eventually became ill. She begged her father-in-law - BEN - to intercede for his son, but he never answered her letters. She died while Richard was in prison. When he was released at the end of the war, he went to England to live. Ben did many wonderful things, but he was a lousy family man. He did raise Richard's illegitimate son, much as his wife had taken in Richard, Ben's illegitimate son, and had his grandson w/ him when he was in France. There was a lot more "out-of-wedlock" sex going on then we learned about in our youth!!! So much for the morality of "the good ole days.".......jean

Jean: Thanks for the info about the Franklins! That was a sad story about Ben's son. It wasn't until I really started reading about the era in the last two years that I really understood what a truly civil war our American Revolution had been. Family fighting family and families torn apart. Ben's son moved to England when he got out of prison and never came back. He and Ben never reconciled. So sad.

Ben really was a pretty crummy family man. He certainly enjoyed the life and ladies over in London and Paris. However, we owe him a lot.

I was glad to find out that his son didn't have to stay in Old Newgate Prison. Was I ever surprised when I toured the place! It was a coppermine that didn't do well. It was turned into a prison for British prisoners and loyalists during the Revolution. It really was a mine! We walked down steps into the underground mine and went through the dark tunnels, carved out of rock, dripping with moisture. That's where the prisoners stayed!! Quite horrifying.

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I found out something interesting about my husband's family during our "first civil war," the Revolution. His family was of Dutch heritage, had been here since before the English, living in Manhattan and Englewood, NJ areas. The last name was spelled Lydekker. Some of the family remained loyalist and some were rebels. The loyalists were forced to flee for their lives to Canada. The rebel family members remained in America but changed the spelling of their name to Lydecker to distinguish themselves from their loyalist relations.

Marni

I just tried to find a web biography of Ben’s son William Franklin who remained loyal during the revolution and was imprisoned by the Rebels, but did not find anything with detail beyond what you have already mentioned here.

Two years ago when Ella and I did the Ben Franklin Biography I did some research on William and now only vague remember some of the details of his post war life in England. Perhaps he was involved in the West Indies trade and perhaps in some ventures involving operations under Letters of Marqué and Reprisal from the English Government authorizing piratical, for profit raids on French ships. His operations might have hit American interests that led to the War of 1812. I don’t remember him as either an outstanding success or a miserable failure in his post revolution life in England.

The Revolution affected Benjamin Franklin’s family the way revolutions so typically do, ie, dividing family loyalties and breaking families apart. I sometimes think that at the time of the American Revolution the population was pretty well divided in three groups each with about 1/3 of the population- 1/3 were dedicated revolutionists, 1/3 were equally dedicated loyalists, and the other 1/3 just didn’t give a dam either way. William Franklin was probably lucky he was only imprisoned; many a Tory loyalist paid with their life for their loyalty to King and /Country.

At St Andrew New Brunswick, I remember walking through the Loyalist Burial Grounds (just across the street from my hotel) and reading the inscriptions on the tombstones of the many loyalist who had fled the States to live the remainder of their lives in Canada.

Marni the thing about catfish is their sharp fins that easily make painful cuts wherever they come in contact with human extremities. I would not want to wrestle one like the character in the story did.

Most of the butcher shop catfish are now ranch raise. Many of these I understand are in Louisiana and Mississippi. They are fed a commercial pellet sort of like dry dog or cat food. I use to put about 150 fingerlings in my pond every year and feed them. After about 6 months feeding they were ready to harvest. About 5 years ago I just let them go on their own and they grew to the three to five pound range. Last winter I let friends fish and remove them and I now think they are all gone. I will not restock catfish this year, but will add more bass fingerlings this winter. The bass function on their own eating pond minnows, bluegill, frogs, and insects.

Click Here for pictures of the pond. One of the bottom pictures shows a school of 2 pound catfish feeding at the surface. Click the enlargement button for the best view.

Harold: What beautiful pictures of your pond! It's like National Geographic! Did you take them? How wonderful having your own pond and your own fish!

Mabel,

Thank you for all the added information about Benjamin Franklin. It is all very interesting. I feel very proud sharing this discussion with you.

Marni,

You have visited Newgate Prison?? I would love to visit there. I have read about that prison in so many books. I didn't know it had been an underground mine. I think the fictional character Moll Flanders spent time in Newgate Prison. Unfortunately, too many "real" people spent time in that prison too.

It is interesting to know about your family background too. So, you know personally how the American Revolution could split a family right down the middle. Then, it happened again in the Civil War.

Harold, your ponds are unbelievably beautiful!! Like Marni, I thought those were photos from a National Geographic. I can just see the birds flying over the ponds in the early morning.

My father was a fisherman. He would go deep sea fishing or fish in creeks. He fished the creeks of Chestnut Hill or West Chester, etc. He went deep sea fishing in Cape May and other places. Anyway, we didn't eat the catfish. My father gave the catfish away. I remember well the taste of bass and other fish.

It's amazing what you can find in historic cemeteries. I find the fact that you had the chance to see the graves of Loyalists so interesting. In our last discussion, Sweetgrass, we read a bit about the graves of American slaves in South Carolina. Visiting cemeteries doesn't make me uneasy. Cemeteries are peaceful places to visit as well as great learning experiences.

Thinking of gravesites reminds me of the many, many people who died during the Yellow Fever Epidemic in Philadelphia. I bet Audubon was happy to come away with his life intact.

This week’s schedule covers Chapters 6. page 77 through Chapter 10, page 153. The new Questions are in the heading.

This week’s reading begins with Audubon and his partner Rozier making a winter journey down the Ohio to a an 18th century French settlement at Ste. Genevieve on a 60 foot flat boat loaded with trade goods that the partners hoped to sell the isolated French settlers. As usual Lucy stayed at Henderson as governess in a Physician’s household.

What was thought to be an easy down river journey became a difficult one when the flat boat became ice bound. This was I think the first extended opportunity for contact with Native Americans by Audubon. Here he hunted with the Shawnee Indians. He also traded for bird skins. One of the hunting trips with the Shawnee involved a winter hunt for a hibernating Bear. Later Audubon hunted with a band of Osage of whom he notated their habit of bathing (in the freezing cold winter) twice a day, a practice he and his partner most certainly did not follow. Rhodes tells us that the Osage, not surprisingly perhaps, thought the French stunk.

I judge Audubon’s attitude toward the Indians at this meeting as the taking advantage of a mutually beneficial circumstance, While the flat boat was ice bound, Audubon took advantage of the situation to hunt with the Indians and trade for bird skins. He truly enjoyed the experience and quite likely the Indians did too, but when the Ice broke and the flat boat was free to continue down stream Audubon and the Indians departed each to pursue their individual destiny. I doubt that Audubon gave much consideration to the thought that the end only one of the two lifestyles could survive

A few years later in the 1830’s the Indian Artist George Catlin had realized this fact. traveled extensive over North (and South) America painting Indians, writing extensively on their culture. See his mullti volume “Letters and Notes on the Manners, Customs, and Conditions of the North American” Click Here. He viewed his mission as one of a recorder preserving for future generation a record of their native culture that he realized was sure to perish.

Hats: Re "Newgate Prison".....I think you might be thinking of Newgate Prison in London. The Newgate Prison in America (now called Old Newgate Prison because it is old) was named after the prison in London. But it is in Granby, CT today. (Granby used to be part of Simsbury, CT.)

Newgate Prison in London was not a mine. But Old Newgate Prison in Granby was an underground copper mine. King George demanded that the copper produced there be sent to England for smelting. So it turned out not to be economically feasible and was closed as a mine. Someone had the idea that it could be used as a prison. It was the first state prison in America. Today it is a national historic landmark.

A good friend just told me she is a descendent of the original owner of Viets Tavern, across the street from the prison. He became the first prison warden of Old Newgate Prison.

http://www.chc.state.ct.us/old_new.htm

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It really is amazing what you can find in historic cemeteries! We were visiting my sister-in-law in Boston recently, looking for the spot where the famous molasses flood occurred in 1919 near Copp's Hill in Boston's north end. Meandering up the hill, we stumbled upon a very very old cemetery. What a surprise! Cotton Mather and Increase Mather, famous Puritan ministers, were buried there! Turns out it was the 2nd oldest burial ground in Boston.

http://www.cityofboston.gov/freedomtrail/coppshill.asp

Friends of ours in New London live next to an old burial ground. It is supposed to be an old Indian burial ground. People think it's haunted.

Marni

Ben Franklin's son's name was William. I don't know where i came up w/ "Richard." I guess my fibromyalgia "fibro fog" combined w/ my senior moment and disrupted my brain synapses ....

A good bio on Wm is "William Franklin" by Sheila Skemp......jean

You are obviously a person who relishes detail; are/were you an "engineer" by vocation, or just avocation? It's fun to read that detail.

I think JJA's attitude toward the Native Americans was quite unusual, he seems so open and non-negative about them, just accepting.

Have you read Undaunted Courage by Stephen Ambrose? I have a feeling that's already been discussed somewhere on SeniorNet.....jean

Jean: You have fibromyalgia? Me, too. It's a terrible thing.

Marni

I'm back from California. I took the book with me and read some, but I'm still way behind.I'll try to catch up in the next few days.

I couldn't believe that earthquake that Audubon experienced!! I don't think of that as a part of the country that has earthquakes. Am I wrong?

The great horned owl is definitely not extinct. A few years ago, we had one in the neighborhood. This is the owl that goes "whoo, whoo". They court in January/ February and that "whoo whoo" can be heard for miles in the middle of the night.

I love mourning doves, too. Their soft colors and mournful calling. The doves (pigeons) that you see in the city are a different species -- the Rock Dove. This is the dove that brought the olive branch to Noah in the bible. I am named for them -- Rock dove is "yona" in Hebrew, which is where Joan comes from.

To hear the owl, scroll down and click on pair calling:

GREAT HORNED OWL

Welcome back, Joan!!! I hope you had a wonderful visit! Don't worry about being behind. We're just glad you're here!

How interesting about your name coming from the Rock Dove. I didn't realize that that was the real name of the city pigeon. I think the word "dove" is so much nicer than "pigeon," for some reason. Dove makes me think of peace. Pigeon makes me think of tons of pigeons scrabbling for food when someone is sitting on a park bench.

I didn't realize that about the earthquakes, either. And how huge and terrible those particular ones were. Felt all the way to Washington, D.C. it said in the book. It said that if that had been a more heavily populated area, there would have been terrible loss of life.

I didn't realize they had tornadoes in Connecticut, either. Then one tore through my town, Windsor, in...1979, I think was the year. It completely demolished an entire section near the Farmington River - not my section, thank goodness. Many people lost their homes. One thing we found about a big natural disaster - it brings out the best and the worst in people. In our town's case, it seemed to bring out the best. It was amazing how everyone chipped to help.

Marni

The great horned owl sounds are cool. Thanks for the link!

I noticed the Latin name of the owl is Bubo virginianus. I wonder what it means. The word "bubo" is what the bubonic plague was named after. A bubo was the word for the boils or lumps that appeared in the armpit and groin area when one got the plague.

Does the great horned owl have lumps of some sort?

Marni

Jean we discussed Undaunted Courage in 1998. It was my first discussion as a DL. I have another Lewis and Clark discussion on the Drawing Board for August 2006 as a 200th commemoration of the return. I was intending to do it in May 2004 on the 200th anniversary of the start but did Last Escape a WW II story instead in commemoration of the dedication of the WW II Memorial on the Mall in Washington DC on Memorial day, 2004.

The August 2006 discussion may be a repeat of Undaunted Courage since I am the only participant in the 1998 discussion still active and as of now I know of no better title available. We hope you (all of you) will participate.

How does Audubon get along with Native Americans he meets on his travels? Is his attitude towards Indians typical of most white Americans in the early 1800’s?

Many Native Americans had been trading with the French for many decades in Canada, the Louisiana territory, and in what had become the United States. Many spoke French as a result. When Audubon met Native Americans as he headed into the frontier, he had an advantage of speaking French. He could converse with them in French and also he learned some of their words.

Audubon thought many Native Americans were handsome, brave, and intelligent people, unlike many Americans who thought they were brutal savages. I almost got the impression that Audubon thought of them as the romantic "noble savage" such as Uncas depicted by James Fenimore Cooper in Last of the Mohicans, which became very popular in Europe in 1826.

America had been through the French and Indian War, the Revolution, and now the War of 1812; and in each war, their enemies, the French or the British, allied themselves with Native Americans and wreaked havoc. White Americans were pushing the Native Americans out of their lands, either killing them or pushing them farther and farther west. The resulting retribution was terrible.

Audubon also apparently had a very genial temperament, was easy to trade with, and entered into Native American acitivites with zest. I was amazed at how Aubudon bravely headed out anywhere by himself with only a few possessions and walked mile after mile facing the unknown alone.

He may have been lucky, too. A number of idealistic adventurers set out alone thinking they'd make friends with the Native Americans, but were tortured or killed.

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For heaven's sake! I just read that James Fenimore Cooper's father died in a duel in 1809. He had founded Cooperstown, New York, which is the home of the "baseball hall of fame" today.

Marni

This is off the subject, but I thought it was pretty interesting. There was talk on the news today about the plea of temporary insanity in the case of Andrea Yates. (They announced she's getting a new trial today.)

Just last night I read that Philip Barton Key, the son of Francis Scott Key (who wrote "The Star-Spangled Banner" during the War of 1812) was murdered by his lover's husband, U.S. Congressman Daniel Sickles of New York in 1859. Sickles was represented at his trial by Edwin Stanton, who became Lincoln's Secretary of War. Stanton was the first to use temporary insanity as a defense and Sickles was released.

I felt very surprised by Audubon's reaction to the Native Americans. He seemed to feel very comfortable with being in their company. I am sure Audubon had heard true stories about some of the incidents on the frontier between the Native Americans and the frontiersmen. Yet, Audubon, brave and self assured, made acquaintances and friendships. Rozier didn't become involved, choosing to remain selfish for whatever reasons, and missed out on the sharing of folklore, hunting stories and new hunting skills.

I loved reading about Audubon's relationship with the Native Americans. I did wonder were the Shawnees and Osages friendlier than the other tribes? Were some tribes less warlike?

Were the Osage and Shawnees friendly with one another? I know all tribes didn't get along well together due to different languages, customs or maybe territorial rights.

Marni,

It is interesting and a bit frustrating to know how the British and the French would use the Native Americans to fight against the Americans. The Native Americans must have felt bewildered by all the new people on the land and each group had a different desire.

Harold and Marni, you are making history so exciting and a learning tool for everyday experiences. What is that saying? If we learn history today, we won't need to make the same mistakes tomorrow. I can never repeat old sayings correctly. Maybe that cliche is a myth. At times, the bad parts of history go on repeating themselves for one reason or another.

Audubon happened to see a lake filled with Trumpeter swans. Are those the big, white swans? I guess swans are always white. Anyway, swans are so beautiful. I wonder how much those swans weighed. All the animals and flowers in America, at that time, were so healthy. Lakes and rivers weren't polluted yet. Now so many of our beautiful birds are stunted or sickly or always on the watch for people who haven't one care about the environment or just plain gone due to extinction. What a loss!

I heard about Adrea Yates on the news last night. That whole situation is very, very sad.

I didn't know about Francis Scott Key's son.

James Fennimore Cooper's father died in a duel??? I wonder if the duel was over a love of a woman. That wouldn't surprise me.

Hi JoanK,

I am glad you are back. You were missed!!!

Hi Mippy!

Harold,

Thank you for the book with George Catlin's recorded findings about the Native Americans customs, dress, etc.

Marni,

I really had my Newgate prisons all mixed up. Thanks for catching me. I find it very interesting that you have visited the second oldest graveyard where Increase and Cotton Mather are buried.

I have visited the graveyard behind Christ Church on St. Simons Island. Eugenia Price used this church and graveyard in her historical novels. While living on St. Simons she would visit this Christ Church.

JoanK,

Your Hebrew name is beautiful. Yona means Rock Dove. Thank you for the Horned Owl link!

Harold,

What good news!! The Whooping Crane is growing in numbers. I love hearing news like that. This kind of news makes me do the happy dance(smile).

Audubon's experiences with Native Americans is not the ordinary set of events. These were trying times. The Americans didn't trust the NA and the NA didn't trust Americans. Unfortunately, there were widespread murders on the frontier and kidnappings too. Audubon's experience is one of the rare ones. I doubt that every experience with a NA led to such a happy and fun day.

I think in all history books you have to fill in the background. The writer doesn't have time to write all events in his book. So, it's up to us to look behind his words and get a broader view.

"When the lake burst on our view there were the swans by hundreds, and white as rich cream..."

Hats: I'm glad you're enjoying the history in the discussion. Me, too! Here's info about the Trumpeter Swan, the largest waterfowl species native to North America:

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/er/factsheets/birds/swan.htm

My parents are part owners of a beach in New London. Many swans swim there at the mouth of the Thames River where it meets the Atlantic and Long Island Sound. They look exactly like trumpeter swans, but I'm not sure if that's what they are. They are huge! They walk around on the beach and are quite messy. And they are not shy! They chase people away sometimes. They actually charge at people and are very belligerent. But they're gorgeous and elegant in the water. They have babies in the spring. They babies are gray until they mature (just like the Ugly Duckling). I love watching the families float gracefully past, babies and all.

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Hats: You've got me thinking about cemeteries. I visited Lafayette Cemetery #1 in New Orleans last year on my visit, one of the famous old cemeteries with beautiful tombstones and crypts. People were buried above ground because much of the city is below sea level. New Orleans was very protective of its old cemeteries because tourists were damaging the tombs. A wall surrounded the cemetery and a gate barred the entrance. You had to be with a tour group to get in.

I wondered after Hurricane Katrina hit what had happened to the old cemeteries. I heard that one of the largest pollutants in the water was from dead bodies. But, I haven't heard anything else about the cemeteries.

Marni

Hi Marni,

Thank you for the link! I have heard about the cemeteries in NO too. I have always wanted to visit there. I can't imagine what or how graves look built above sea level. After Katrina, I heard about those dead bodies floating around too. Knowing about their cemeteries and the sea level, I knew that would become a major concern.

Elderhostle is having a "search for the ivory-billed woodpeckers in Arkansas" this spring!!

When i worked at Ft Dix, there were two black swans on the lake there. They were talked about as being very rare. In the descriptions on the link they only mention white ones. Do you suppose the black ones were a different kind, or a mutation? They were very aggressive and we were frequently warned to be careful. It was a lake where people went for lunch and often fed the ducks and geese and the white swans, when they were there.

Philadelphia has a beautiful cemetary, Laurel Hill, which is a garden cemetary and many people jog thru it, or go just to sit and be quiet.

I just saw in the TV Guide that Ted Koppel is retiring from Nightline. I'm sure they will change the "hard news" format, everyone is looking for the younger audience, so they feel there has to be more "entertainment." Makes me aware of my age, that all the newspeople i've watched thru most of my adult years are also at retirement age. For some reason i think of them as being younger than me.......jean

Hi Jean,

I hate to hear about Ted Koppel. It seems like all the ones from our generation are disappearing.

I have read about black swans. I just don't know whether in a factual book or a fairy tale. That's why I didn't mention black swans. So black swans do exist? Do you think the black swans are now extinct?

Black swans still exist. I worked in an office park that had, like Jean's job, ponds and walking paths for the employees. In one pond, some black swans paddled around. In another pond, white swans swam. The two groups of swans were enemies. They would fight each other, for territory perhaps? It was pretty neat, though, seeing black swans. They're still there. A restaurant that we visit once in awhile overlooks the ponds and the swans are still there. I didn't realize that black swans are rare. I'll have to look them up.

Hmmmm. The only info I can find about black swans are about Cygnus atratus, the black swans of Australia and New Zealand. I don't find them existing anywhere else. Could they have been introduced into the U.S. fairly recently? Maybe I'm just not finding the right info.

http://www.amonline.net.au/factsheets/black_swan.htm

Marni

Oh, he is beautiful! Is it a male or female?

Here's a picture of tombs in New Orleans' Lafayette Cemetery #1. (Apparently, this part of New Orleans used to be in Lafayette, but became part of New Orleans as the city expanded.)

We also took a picture of the marker for the cemetery. It's a national landmark today.

Someone did buy the black swans and bring them to the lake at Ft Dix. I don't know what their rational was for doing that. It was about 1993 or so. Maybe i can check w/ their newspaper office and see if they have a story in the morgue about them......jean

Marni,

Great photos!! All of the tombstones are so large. Are the tombstones large because of the sea level problem?

Well, the entire tomb is above ground because the land is below sea level. If you dig down, the hole fills with water. Everyone was buried above ground. The bodies, of course, are buried within the tombs; so we're seeing an above ground coffin basically. Some of the tombs are very simple. Others are very large and grand with carvings etc. I suppose it depended on how much money you had and wanted to spend. Many seem to be made of marble. Some seem to be of brownstone.

The Rhodes report of an Audubon meeting with Toussaint Charbonneau (p-86) at Ste. Genevieve in Late February or March 1811 caught my interest. I suppose it is possible such a meeting occurred and Sacagawea too was present since Charbonneau was known to be living in the area for a time. However, Henry Brackenridge in his journal on April 2, 1811 noted “a wife of Charbonneau who had accompanied Lewis and Clark to the Pacific was on board a trading boat with him in the vicinity of fort Manuel (in present day South Dakota).
click here

Sacagawea is know to have died at Fort Manuel on Dec 22, 1812 after giving birth to a daughter Lisette) some months earlier. http://www.pbs.org/lewisandclark/inside/saca.html

I wonder if in 1811 it was possible for Charbonneau and Sacagawea to have been so far up the Missouri (South Dakota) by April 2nd as reported in the Brackenridge Journal not much mort than a month after the reported Audubon meeting at Ste Genevieve. I don’t think steamboats were in use on the Missouri at that early date. I wish Rhodes had documented his sources for this meeting better.

See also: click here

And click here

3 links edited to stop scrolling

I thought it interesting, too, that Audubon was friends with members of the Clark family. Audubon. At one point, Audubon rode to Henderson on William Clark's flatboat (William Clark of Lewis and Clark fame).

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Audubon was in tremendously athletic. The book describes what an amazing walker he was. He walked east in moccasins across Illinois 165 miles by himself with his dog to the Ohio River. He could cover one-half to 1 mile in 8 minutes.

He and Lucy both are very physically active. They rode back to Lucy's father's home, Fatland Ford, 800 miles on horseback at one point.

If you find the text of the discussion going off the monitor screen,

click on "outline" in the list of choices at the beginning or end.

then click on post # 280 to re-enter discussion.

My understanding is that all black swans seen in this country are introduced or escapees. Our native swans are all white.

The trumpeter swan is a native. There is fear that it is being pushed out by an introduced swan, the mute swan. This is a very lovely swan native to Europe. It has been brought here, and is flourishing. This is the swan with the lovely curve to its neck. But it is very aggressive. It is bigger than the trumpeter, and its bill is orange, not black.

MUTE SWAN

JoanK: Those are the New London swans - the mute swans!!! They have the orange bills!! Yes, they are extremely beautiful and graceful. I don't think I have ever heard them make a noise, now that I think about it. Is that why they are called mute? I'll have to read the article.

Thanks!!

Marni

There were two Natural phenomena Experienced by Audubon and his contemporaries in 1811 –12 period. The first was the Great Comet of 1811. Apparently this comet appeared between April 1811 and January 1812. ”This comets tail was about 25 degrees long (an apparent impressive display). More can be found at the American Meteor Society Great Comet of 1811. This comet was seen with the unaided eye. Two tails where observed with this comet, one straight and one curved.” This is quoted fromClick Here . The Great Comet of1811 link included in the above did not work for me this evening.

The other event was the Great Earthquake that shook the Mississippi Valley Dec 16, 1811. I had not realized that the Mississippi valley was subject to such quakes, but according to the Web site linked below they are not that unusual there. Audubon described his experience during one of the major after shocks on Jan 23 1812 while riding through the Kentucky barrens on page 98 of the Rhodes book. The principal people reaction to the event was “the Great Awakening” that saw Methodist membership increase from 31,000 to 46,000 in 1812. Baptist membership similarly soared upward. The Audubon’s seem to have taken the event without much adjustment to their lives.

A Google search of 1811-12 Earthquake yields many hits including Click Here

For goodness sake! How interesting to read that about the mute swans. I had no idea. All I know is they can take over a beach! They've been on the Thames River for about 30 years. It was a big surprise when they showed up. We thought it was great because there were these incredibly gorgeous birds sailing along in salt water, of all things, and walking around eating stuff on the beach. There are a lot more of them now. They must like it there! They can be a pest. They chase after you and actually peck at you when they are in an aggressive mood.

Regarding "In other areas of the state, mute swans have also been documented killing mallard ducklings and Canada goose goslings..." Well, all I can say is if they get rid of a few Canadian geese, I will not be sad. Canadian geese are everywhere around here and have become a terrible nuisance. They don't fly south anymore. They stay here and are polluting many lakes. Lakes have to be closed. People can't swim in them because of the geese droppings.

Harold: I found that so fascinating about the natural disasters spurring on numerous religious conversions in the Great Awakening. It made me think of this year, 2005. Another unbelievable year for natural disasters - tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, mass deaths and destruction. I wonder what today's natural disasters will bring in the way of religious conversions?

A good deal of the information in Chapers 6-10 dealt with Audubon's attempts to make a living at various businesss ventures. Would anyone like to comment on Audubon's businesses, his business partners, and Audubon's business acumen?

Talking about business matters is very confusing for me. I would definitely love to read another person's perspective. I can only gather that Audubon had general stores and a mill. His partners seemed to come and go for one reason or another. I wish somebody would put his business life in perspective.

I find The Great Awakening fascinating too. The earthquake led to a filling of the pews. The same situation happened after the failures of crops. Everybody went back to church. I have read a little bit about The Great Awakening. I had no idea it was connected to a disastrous earthquake. I have forgotten who led The Great Awakening or why it even started.

It seemed to me that Audubon had some good ideas regarding businesses and tried hard. But the economy, luck, some of his decisions, his partners, his interest in birds, perhaps his lack of a complete education, and perhaps his personality created some business difficulties for him. For years he tried different things. Here's a rundown on Audubon's business ventures:

First he investigated the lead mine on his father's Mill Grove plantation. He had trouble with Francis Dacosta and the lead mine was not productive. Sounds like he enjoyed the good life and spent a lot of time drawing. Audubon had difficulty selling his portion of the mine because times were hard. One down.

Audubon then learned something about the import/export business by clerking in New York for Benjamin Bakewell. He and friend Ferdinand Rozier, who also had been clerking, partnered up in imports/exports and decided to trade goods on the frontier. They borrowed startup money and opened up a general store in Louisville. Then President Jefferson declared the Embargo Act on Dec. 22, 1807, and the Non-Intercourse Act in 1809. Imports and exports dried up because of port blockades. Many merchants lost everything, including Audubon and Rozier. At least Mill Grove was sold and Audubon was able to pay off business debts. Two down.

Then (in 1810, I think) Audubon, Lucy and Rozier set up a store in Henderson, Kentucky, to sell whiskey, gunpowder, dry goods. They checked out St. Genevieve on the Louisiana Territory frontier as a business site. Meanwhile, Lucy began working as a governess and tutor to bring in some money. Lucy was a woman before her time!! Audubon bought out Rozier's part of the business because they didn't agree on where to establish themselves. He has trouble collecting money Rozier owes him, one of many instances where Audubon has trouble collecting money from debtors. Three down.

Audubon and Tom Bakewell, Lucy's brother, partner up and plan setting up a store in New Orleans. Audubon invest in this store. Promptly, New Orleans has been blockaded by the British. The War of 1812 has begun. Four down.

Then Audubon and Tom start up a general store in Henderson. Finally, business prospers! Goods are scarce. Audubon and Tom work hard and scrounge up sorely-needed goods to sell. They make money. In 1813 Audubon is able to buy a house, land, nice possessions for his family, and slaves. The Audubons live the good life.

Tom pursuades Audubon to invest in building a steam-operated grist & saw-mill. Then Tom gives up on the mill and goes into the business of building steamboats. He pursuades Audubon to buy him out. Audubon is stuck with the mill and is unable to handle its operation. The War of 1812 ends in 1815 and a recession sets in, resulting in the Panic of 1819, the first great economic crisis and depression in America. Many businessmen fail, including Audubon. He owes a lot of money, and can't collect from his creditors. The Audubons lose everything they own, even Audubon's bird paintings! Luckily, family friend Nicholas Berthoud buys them and gives them back. Five down.

Audubon is thrown into debtor's prison in Louisville. This is the lowest of low points. When he gets out, Tom Bakewell and Nicholas Berthoud refuse to help him get back on his feet. So, they must have thought he was a poor business risk. Meanwhile, they are successful. Audubon ardently paints birds to escape the shame and humiliation of his public failure.

Despite his business problems, Audubon is described as a “man of scrupulous honesty” who “placed the highest value possible upon his word, holding it in all things the equal of his bond”.....men took advantage of him” because “he would go his whole length doing for others while his own was left undone.”

It is at this low point that Audubon finally begins to draw and paint for a living. He paints portraits, landscape backgrounds, and birds in museums, academies, and private homes. He begins thinking about his masterwork, a book of his birds.

Marni

At the time there was no protective safety net sheltering entrepreneurs from the vicissitudes of the ever changing, uncontrolled, and unpredictable business cycle. I suspect that it was rare for individuals on their own to get through a lifetime career without a business failure. And the Panic of 1819 has been judged by some, America’s first really severe depression. Audubon was one of its victims.

I think Audubon was a quite versatile going from the over-the-counter sales of retail household goods and staples to the building and operation of a steam-powered mill. For the later, he contracted with a Scotch immigrant engineer, David Prentice, to build the steam engine on site from scratch. Is it any wonder that the initial operations were characterized by many shutdowns for adjustment and repairs to the equipment? I think the final failure that resulted in JJ’s bankruptcy was, however, more the result of his inability to collect debts owed to him by others than it was to problems operating the steam equipment. It seems Audubon always had problems collecting money owed him. Also Audubon had let his brother-in-law, Tom Bakewell of the hook by buying Tom’s interest in the mill and assuming sole responsibility for the debt. It was this that pushed him over the edge into bankruptcy.

We see an Interesting example of apparently successful early 19th century technological entrepreneurial enterprise in the Bakewell/Prentice partnership that followed the mill failure. In Pittsburgh Tom Bakewell and David Prentice formed a company building steamboats. Sort of like the modern day Bill Gates or Michel Dell, the partnership using Prentiss’s engineering expertise applied the elemental technology of the day to build steamboats for the river trade. This partnership seems to have been engaged in the right thing at the right time and apparently flourished. .

altho i had studied about both the first and the second religious revivals in Amer history.

Here's a site w/ a summary about the 2nd Awakening in Applachia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening#Appalachia

w/ links to summary of the First Great Awakening......jean

Do you think our current experience with hurricanes, tornados, and pending pestilence are having, or might have, a comparable impact on modern America leading to another Great Religious Awaking?

This is your discussion too. We are interesting in hearing your views, comments, and questions on this and the many other specific issues raised by this book. Tell us what you think about the book?

It was interesting to see in Mabel's link above that during the 2nd Great Awakening the camp meeting was born. This makes me think of revival meetings and Elmer Gantry.

Well, we're certainly in for some battling over religious and political beliefs today with the Intelligent Design controversy and resulting battle over the introduction of religious education in state schools. I saw on the news today that televangelist Pat Robertson told citizens of a Pennsylvania town that they had rejected God by voting their school board out of office for supporting Intelligent Design and warned them Thursday not to be surprised if disaster struck.

Re: "Eighteenth-century Calvinists like Jonathan Edwards or George Whitefield had stressed the sinful nature of humans and their utter incapacity to overcome this nature without the direct action of the grace of God working through the Holy Spirit."

I will never forget reading a sermon by Jonathan Edwards called "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" where he described an angry God as dangling people like spiders over hell. Basically, he scared the bejeezus out of his congregation.

"Your wickedness makes you as it were heavy as lead, and to tend downwards with great weight and pressure towards hell; and if God should let you go, you would immediately sink and swiftly descend and plunge into the bottomless gulf, and your healthy constitution, and your own care and prudence, and best contrivance, and all your righteousness, would have no more influence to uphold you and keep you out of hell, than a spider's web would have to stop a falling rock.....The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours."

Nice, huh? Did people sleep at night after a church day?

http://www.jonathanedwards.com/sermons/Warnings/sinners.htm

By the way, did you know that Aaron Burr was Jonathan Edwards' son-in-law? I just read, also, that Edwards was born in East Windsor in 1703 - just across the Connecticut River from my town, Windsor.

Marni

Thank you Harold and Marni for giving me a better understanding of Audubon's business dealings. His owning a store or store and his wonderful ability to remain very honest reminded me of a few of the stories about Abe Lincoln. I remember Abe Lincoln owned a store for a short time, I think. I think people also called him "Honest Abe."

Mabel thank you for the link to The Great Awakening.

Harold,

I do think the Tsunami, Hurricane Katrina and all of the other weather disasters this year will cause drastic changes in the lives of people. I know definitely that these huge and unexpected disasters will cause people to look inside of themselves and strive for some sort of change in their lives.

These new changes might come in their returning to their religious homes or may cause these people to make a change politically. It seems when disaster strikes people look for a religious saving arm or they look for person or persons in politics who can be blamed for all of their losses. Some choose to give up on politics or religion. Anyway, major choices are made after the kinds of destructions we have seen lately.

So, I think this time will become significent in our history. I felt very shocked by the disaster which swept through Indiana. In the night while most people were sleeping and had no chance to save themselves by evacuating or boarding up their homes.

Harold,

By the way I am enjoying Rhodes book very much. Often I go over what is in the heading, the clickables and rereading rescanning the chapters.

Mabel,

I had never heard of 'The Second Great Awakening.' Thank you.

Dover, Pa doesn't have any natural disaster for the next year, Pat will think he's the "second coming" and there may be people who will believe him. That man has just gone round the bend on so many issues this year, but he leads a "congregation" that are not unlike the revival mtgs of the 19th century.

There are so many issues relating to the Second Great Awakening: women's roles, African-Americans, reform movements, people beginning to think of having connections to people in other states...........on and on.

We must remember that there were no radios or tvs, very little "entertainment" in the 1830's, so going to a revival mtg w/ all its emotion and drama could be very entertaining. Also, a lot of people were being taught to be stoic in their emotions and these events gave them an opportunity to be publicly and exceptably emotional.

Many of the people involved in these events were women and African-American. Often these mtgs were racially integrated, one of the few places where that was happening in the first half of the 19th century.

Under the influence of the 2nd G A the role of churches and ministers in community life diminished as lay participation increased and religion became the prime motivating force behind organized benevolence and reform, w/ women garnering a major role. These movements: caring for the poor, abolition, temperance, etc. gave women an opportunity to be involved in the greater society. At the same time women were being moved into the "cult of domesticity" -"your real role is as a good wife and mother, training up respectable, republican, young men to be good citizens."

For me a tiny amazing piece of the revival mtgs is that there were sometimes thousands of people attending. I am still at a lose, even tho i have looked for an answer, as to how people heard what the speakers were saying. Obviously, all of them could not hear, but the speakers still had an effect. I heard recently that Lincoln was very good at projecting his voice to crowds, but i still am cynical when i read that someone spoke to a crowd of a thousand or more......jean

Honest Abe - I am just now reading Gore Vidal's novel (historical fiction) called Lincoln. Abraham Lincoln was a very crafty railroad attorney. He made a ton of money protecting railroads and he owned a mansion. It was Abe who was able to negotiate and set the precedent for the railroads (Central Illinois Railroad, I think was his company) to build and operate railroads without paying tax on the land. It seems that the image of Honest Abe, the midwest rube, was carefully crafted so Lincoln could win political elections.

Marni

Jean, I never have thought of how the preachers were heard in such a crowd. That is a good question. I also wonder how did these preachers travel from place to place. Rhodes already mentioned the hardships of travel by flatboat, coach or steam. Horse travel had its own difficulties. At one point, wasn't Audubon's horse spooked? Did I read that in Rhodes book or somewhere else? I should go check before spreading a computer rumor(smile).

I didn't know Gore Vidal had a book published about Lincoln. Marni, is it a new book? I know Doris Kearns Godwin just published a book about Lincoln.

The "First" Great Awakening was in the mid 1700's mostly in New England and Virginia. The most well-known ministers were Jonathan Edwards and Geroge Whitefield, both "gripping orators." Whitefield has been called "the first modern celebrity."

The idea of "conversion" or being "born again" (that term being the modern phrase) came out of this event. This was a Calvinist idea of recognizing our human depravity and surrendering completely to God's will. "Such surrender brought to both sexes an intensely emotional release from sin and came to be seen as a single identifiable moment of conversion." (quote from the text i use in U.S. History 101).

From a US history point of view, the FGA was important because people of New England and from the South began to identify themselves as part of a group w/ some commonality, rather than as "English people who lived in the colonies" or as "Virginians" or "New Yorkers" - they were not self-identifed as "Americans" at that time. So the FGA is a first step to that identification of commonality which eventually gets stronger as we move toward an Amer Revolution.....jean

Writing about the dangers of travel made me remember Audubon's travels by horse. At one point he encountered these horrible buffal gnats.

"On the advice of experienced prairie travelers Adudubon had outfitted his horse for the journey with a hooded cloak of light linen that covered all but the animal's nostrils"

"But the prairie was infested at that time season with a scourge of buffalo gnats that seldom bothered people but could kill calves and fawns by exsanguination and horses by sheer torment."

I am still thinking about the difficulties these preachers of The First and Second Awakening faced while traveling.

These periods of great revival stirred people in the colonies to begin thinking as one people. I see. This feeling of commonality rather than separation would help the Revolutionary cause.

Unfortunately, I see thoughts of slavery rising its ugly head and the beginning of a divide happens again, after the American Revolution and after the War of 1812. Rhodes mentions that Kentucky was a slave state. Audubon did own slaves.He bought and sold slaves during this time. Audubon might have had divided feelings about owning slaves because he calls the people not "slaves' but "servants."

How did The Great Awakening affect slavery? Because this commonality would soon become lost again before the approaching Civil War.

"Slavery was still a local problem in the United States at that time. The importation of slaves into the country had been outlawed by an act of Congress in January 1808....."

before FDR was president. Almost every biography i read tells tales of people having to borrow money from a relative or a friend, of people having to take in others of their family or friends. I think people must have had a very different attitude about doing those things, or about the people whose fortunes had been lost. It seems to have been very common to ask someone who, at the moment, has more money than you do, for a loan and very common for the loan to have been given....... I know i would have been horrified to have had to go to my parents or a friend for a loan after i was an adult.

And then if you loaned someone money, there seems to have been very little chance of your enforcing payment if the loanee wasn't inclined to do so, or just disappeared.

Many people have a negative attitude about the homeless today,but it was very possible to lose a home before there were any safety nets in place and people often had family members staying w/ them.

Where would Donald Trump be w/out the backruptcy laws? How many times has he gone bankrupt? Could he have afforded to get married for the third/forth time w/out bankrupt laws?

I wonder how all those people who say "government should stay out of our lives" would feel if they REALLY had gov't out of their lives.....again i say "we live in the best of times."......jean

Harold: Gore Vidal's Lincoln was published in 1984. I've had it for years and am just now getting around to reading it. It is excellent!! It begins with his election to the presidency. It doesn't really get into much about his life before this. I have never read anything by Gore Vidal before. I read somewhere in SeniorNet that someone did not enjoy his books. But, I am enjoying this book immensely.

Marni

Jean,

I agree. We have so many safety nets today. People during Audubon's time and thereafter had to fall on their ability to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and go on. During Katrina people were able through the govt's help to get a thousand or two thousand dollars to begin again. In earlier times when hurricanes struck you just went on, did the best that you could and rebuilt. These people had to rely on their own wits and resources. I think that ability is one that deserves applause and praise.

RR is going to be on a panel about science writing on BookTv on Sunday at 7:00......fyi......jean

Thanks for the info, Jean!

Mabel,

Thank you for the information. I don't want to miss his. I think he is a wonderful writer.

Harold and Marni,

I am very much enjoying and learning so much from both of you as discussion leaders. If I am posting too much or going too far ahead of others by asking all the wrong questions, please holler stop. I will gladly stop for my own good.

I just want to applaud you for giving your time and doing so much research. I read the questions daily in the heading. These questions are my guide through the book.

Mabel,

Your input, as a teacher, is greatly appreciated too. I definitely do not take your fine credentials for granted. I respect all teachers. I just feel schoolteachers deserve more praise than society gives their efforts to teach our children and grandchildren.

In history there are always sensitive issues. I am not afraid to gently discuss these areas knowing that on Seniornet there are many, many mature and wise elder Americans who can add magnificent input.

Mabel,

We do, I agree, "live in the best of times."

We're glad you're enjoying the discussion, Hats! Don't stop asking questions. Ask away. Please feel you can participate as much as you want. This is a very small discussion group. You add so much to our group!

Marni

On the Great Awakening: I had several ancestors who were Methodist preachers in the late 18th and early 19th century. The first had been a trustee of Cokesbury College the first Methodist College in North America. A later scion at an early age was a kid preacher, quite an attraction at early 19th century camp meetings. I think, however, his childhood preaching was in the first 19th century decade a bit before the 1812 awakening. One of these preachers was defrocked for an improper dalliance with a servant girl. (We may strive for godliness, but the flesh is weak!)

I don’t think so far that American society has shown any great eagerness for another “Great Awakening.” I think we as a people are much too involved in material things to suddenly pay much attention to the spiritual. It would take something more than a couple of hurricanes and a tornado to disrupt this mindset. A real virulent viral plague, a human-to-human transmitted bird flue for example with the dead numbered in the millions, could do it.

On Gore Vidal : Vidal is well know for his historical novels. The one I have read was “Julian.” This was his fictional story of the Roman Emperor Julian, the nephew of Constantine the Great, the first Roman Emperor to embrace Christianity. In History Julian is know as “Julian the Apostate,” because of his attempt to restore the ancient religion. His effort was based on his belief in the superior value of ancient philosophy compared to Christian Theology. In any case his restoration effort stopped short of the bloodshed that had marked previous reigns and Christianity under later Emperors was again favored. I enjoyed reading this book and judged its portrayal of history quite accurate.

Did you know Marni that the Gore in Gore Vidal comes from his mother’s family name. Yes Gore Vidal and Al Gore are distant cousins. Some of you might remember that in the 1960’s Gore Vidal ran in California as the Democrat candidate for the U.S. Senate. He was not successful, as other branches of the family had been in both Tennessee and Oklahoma, and was defeated by the Republican candidate

Hats, No!, I do not think you post too much. I welcome all posts including posts not directly from the book but one that might arise in the participant’s mind from his/her interpretation of passages of the book or in response to previous posts. (I suppose an example of this is my Gore Vidal theme suggested to me from Marni’s previous Posts.)

Of course we DL’s also welcome from Participants their original interpretative comments and questions from the book; and also their answers and comments relative to the focal questions. It takes all of these things but particularly participant response to make a great–successful discussion

I am very impressed w/ all the work the DL's do in the SeniorNet sites.

Hats, I very much enjoy your comments and questions, please continue...

Vidal also wrote a very good novel called "Burr."

Re Harold's question about Lucy: she sounds like an excellent, supportive wife, in general, but especially for the frontier. She appears to be very adaptive to whatever circumstances appear.

I love Rhodes comment that "Sarah drove her husband to drink!!!" Oh-h-h yeah, it's the wife's fault! Granted she sounded very unhappy on the frontier, but it was so often true that it was the husband who made the decision to go pioneering and wives just had to go along - it was their "duty." Maybe we should applaud Sarah for her assertiveness in saying "I hate it here," instead of saying her nagging drove her husband to drink.

I believe it was on another site that someone mentioned Irving Stone's novels. They are a little romanticized, but he obviously did some good research. One of the ones i liked very much was about Jessie Fremont who was the wife of John C. Fremont, called "Immortal Wife." They are of this period that we are talking about. He became the governor of the Calif territory and she traveled from Washington D.C. - her father was a senator from Missouri at the time we are discussing - by boat south, thru the gulf of Mexico, then took a donkey ride across the jungles of Panama and back on a boat to go to San Francisco. She's an amazing "frontier wife." John was an adventurer and was in many dire straits. She often didn't hear from him or know where he was for months and months.

Stone also wrote novels about John and Abigail Adams (Those Who Love), Rachael and Andrew Jackson (The President's Lady), and Mary and Abe Lincoln (Love is Eternal.) I found them all enjoyable.....jean

Jean,

Thank you for all the historical novel titles and authors. I am anxious to get some of the Vidal books from the library. I might have read some of Irving Stone's books. I did read Passions of the Mind about Sigmund Freud and maybe another one. It's just been a million years ago! I guess Irving Stone is not with us anymore. I really liked his writing. I would love to Fremont one. I would also love to just read every book written by him.

I love what you wrote about Sarah. Lucy is so wonderful as a wife and mother. Thinking of Lucy made me want to throw dirt on Sarah and send her back home or somewhere else. You've got a good point. She probably does deserve some credit just for trying to please her husband and not giving in to her needs or desires.

Lucy also had a sick child to care for during this time. Then, she lost that child. Not easy for any mother to live through. I can't imagine such pain. As far as I can see, Lucy gathered herself together and kept on striving to tend her family. I am sure JJ helped her through this time greatly.

Doris Kearns Goodwin talked on CSpan today about her new book. It's about Lincoln. She talked about Nancy Todd Lincoln. I get the idea that Mrs. Lincoln was a bit more fragile than Lucy Audubon.

Another Irving Stone book is Lust for Life about Vincent Van Gogh. That was very popular when I was young. They made a movie out of it starring Kirk Douglas.

Isn't that interesting that Al Gore is related to Gore Vidal. I think I saw Gore Vidal when he was running for office. He seemed very....snobbish. It seemed like he was affecting a British accent. However, I'm enjoying his book very much.

I'm definitely going to have to read the book about Burr. If there is anyone who is an intriguing person, it is Aaron Burr. Until recently, the only thing I had ever heard about him was that he killed Alexander Hamilton in a duel when Burr was Vice President of the U.S. But there are so many other intriquing things about him. One of them was his relationship with his daughter. From some articles I read, it almost sounds like it practically verged on incest. Very strange.

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I'm so glad to see comments about Lucy Audubon. What a wonderful lady. I'm disappointed that we don't see a more in-depth picture of her in this book. This book is definitely about Audubon, the man. Yes, we see bits and pieces of Lucy's incredible bravery, vigor, hard work, intelligence, humor, spice, patience and endurance. But just tiny pieces. I want to read more about her.

Imagine falling in love with this impetuous, volatile, handsome Frenchman, and following him into the wilderness. Imagine supporting your family through highs and lows, being completely destitute, having lost everything you own, your husband thrown into debtors' prison, and on the edge of civilization. Imagine your dear mother dying when you are a teenager, your father remarrying a woman who hates you and kicks you out, and eventually your father having a stroke and growing senile from what may have been alzheimer's. Imagine giving birth to a hydrocephalic baby girl and nursing her until she dies at age two. Imagine having another beautiful baby girl when your family is on the verge of starving and having your baby girl die at seven months from a fever. Imagine having to take on the responsibility of supporting your family by becoming a tutor and governess while your husband leaves for months or years at a time, hunting for work and painting birds. Lucy was a remarkable woman.

Marni

Jean thank you for mentioning the Gore Vidal novel “Burr.” The truth is, I have that book somewhere; I now remember buying it but I don’t remember reading it. I’ll look tomorrow at in my book shelves at the Guadalupe County place. It would make a good discussion title.

Another wife who soured on pioneer life was Tom Bakewell’s wife Elizabeth Ranlkin Page. Tom and Elizabeth were married July 27, 1816 in Henderson when JJ and Tom were involved in planning and construction of the steam mill. By December of the same year, Elizabeth had enough of Henderson and was determined to return to Pittsburgh. This lead to Audubon’s purchasing of Toms interest in the mill, and his assuming responsibility for the debt that had been incurred to finance the project. Certainly every woman did not have Lucy’s pioneer spirit.

Actually as Rhodes pointed out Tom Bakwell by leaving the partnership had cut his losses while taking advantage of what he had learned from Prentice (about steam engines); partnering with Prentice in Pittsburgh he intended to build steamboats for the river trade. It was this transaction that left Audubon alone responsible for the mill debt leading to his bankruptcy.

I've lost my copy of Audubon. I know I brought it back from California -- I remember unpacking it. But now I can't find it. If it doesn't turn up by Monday,I'll try to borrow a copy. Meanwhile, I'm restricted to comments on your comments.

Lucy's frontier life sounds a lot like my Great great Grandmother. They had land in Ohio, and had ten children, eight of whom died before reaching adulthood. That was not uncommon in those days.

My gggfather always seemed to have had schemes for making money which never worked out. He went on the California Gold Rush, leaving her to mind the farm. He was gone for years and came back as broke as when he left. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have copies of their letters. She does not sound as patient as Lucy is portrayed -- sometimes she got downright testy with him. But do we have enough of Lucy's letters to tell if she was really that patient? I wouldn't have been. I'd like to know more before I nominate her for sainthood.

Hi JoanK,

I am so glad to see your post. You offer a lot of wonderful information about Audubon's birds. Sorry you misplaced your book. I would like to read more about Lucy's life too. I wonder if there is a book written about Lucy Audubon. There have been so many books written about about the women who married great men:Ralph Waldo Emerson's wife, Mary Todd Lincoln, Martha Washington,etc.

I think frontier life must have been difficult for any woman. No matter her character she must have dealt with days of crying and sadness. On the frontier, there were different tribes of NA's, the war casualties became a daily part of their lives, crops failed. It was a hard life, no predictable transportation, probably a bear or two walked the woods. It's not a romantic time.

I can't imagine how Lucy contended with such a seriously ill child with only one doctor nearby. No specialist at hand to treat the disease.

We are lucky today. When faced with long term illnesses, our loved ones live so much longer. My mother died of cancer. When told she needed a mastecdomy, the doctors gave her a couple of years to live. My mother lived twenty years longer. She received wonderful care in the American Oncologic hospital in Phila.Pa.

Because of the wonderful care she received I had her with me until she died after my first child's birth. Our life would have been so different in an earlier time.

Also, from what I can understand from Rhodes, Lucy had a better life than many other frontier women. Lucy lived in a nice home with many beautiful and necessary material items. We know that a woman can put up with a lot if she is able to have a nice home.

Lucy also had family. Because of her stepmother's mistreatment or callous behavior toward Lucy's sister and/or brothers at different times they would come and live at Lucy's home. Plus, the cousin or cousins came by. No matter whether they complained or not these people kept Lucy from being extremely alone.

Also, not all people owned slaves. The Audubons, due to JJ's good business sense had enough money to buy slaves. These slaves, Rhodes writes, made life tremendously easier for the Audubons. The slaves lifted a bit of the work load from the shoulders of JJ and Lucy.

This gave Lucy more time to share with her children . This gave JJ more time to observe and draw birds. Not all frontiermen or frontierwomen had this luxury. Perhaps, Sarah and her family did not own slaves.

Still, I applaud any woman who loses a child. I can't imagine losing more than one. I had a friend who had three children to die in a car crash. I always looked at her with amazement. When she would say something silly or painful, I tried to allow for the fact that she had experienced something which might have driven me to jump ship. She, like Lucy, had that miraculous strength to go on without those children.

I don’t think Lucy was anyway near as prolific a letter writer than JJ. The 1826 Journal for many of the daily entries is copies of his letter to Lucy on that particular day. There are no quotes from replies of Lucy that I remember. I do remember many verbal complaints about no letters from home. Also after the two-months at sea it was weeks before the first letter from Lucy was received.

JJ on the other hand was a prolific letter writers writing to Lucy almost daily after he arrived in England. On the several occasions when his ship encountered other ships in the Gulf heading for America he would send letters. He even sent many letters to others such as Lucian Bonaparte and several of his in-laws and former business associates in the U.S. I don’t take Lucy’s few letters to indicate a callous lack of love and concern; rather I suspect it was more that she just was not much into writing, and perhaps also her work day with the kids and housekeeping just didn’t leave much time for writing.

I am going to add another paragraph since it just occurred to me that Rhodes frequently mentions Lucy’s correspondence in the text. I think most often these are letters to her family, her siblings, rather than letters to JJ. It makes my wonder why JJ did not get more letters while in England where he had a permanent address and the mail service between the two countries while necessary slow because of its wind dependence, nevertheless was quite reliable. It must have been that Lucy did not write as often as JJ

JoanK: I hope you find your Audubon. It's such a good book. But, please stay with us and offer your thoughts. You add so much to our discussion. It's interesting how your relatives' experiences are similar to the Audubons'. They must have been a hardy lot.

Hats: We do seem to have so much better health care today. Doctors have learned so much, although there is still so much to learn. Sometimes we think they can fix anything and are surprised when they can't. That's wonderful that your mother lived so much longer than expected, although it must have been a terrible loss for you when she died at a relatively young age.

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Re: "Lucy lived in a nice home with many beautiful and necessary material items." She did for awhile. This was for a relatively short period after they were married. It was during the period of success in Henderson. Before and after that, from what we've seen to date, they were quite poor, if not destitute. That's why Lucy had to go to work in an era when most married women of Lucy's station worked in the home.

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The Audubons did own slaves while doing well in Henderson. Kentucky was a slave state. The slaves did take much of the burden off of Lucy's shoulders. But, many people who did not own slaves had help such as servants or indentured servants.

I thought it was interesting that Audubon called his slaves "servants." I read that at this time slavery was illegal in France. The French were shocked at the slavery in the U.S. A number of Americans who owned slaves and visited or lived in France (such as Thomas Jefferson who brought several slaves with him when he was ambassador to France) tried to hide the fact that they owned slaves and referred to them as their servants.

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Regarding Lucy's letter writing....I wonder if she were just so very busy raising the children, taking care of the home (wherever it was), and working as a tutor or governess. And maybe she just got irritated with her husband because sometimes he wasn't providing enough to tide the family over. Rhodes mentioned at one point that Lucy was not shy about telling her husband off when she thought it was necessary. She sounds like a strong, confident woman who said what was on her mind. Maybe she just got angry sometimes.

Audubon seems to have often done just what he felt like. If he felt like hunting or drawing birds, he went off and did it. Many of his business ventures were not successful. Maybe partly it was the economy or luck or what have you, but maybe partly it was because Audubon was off with the birds. That was his hobby and his escape for a long time before he decided to take it up as a living and then to publish a book of his birds. I noticed Rhodes says that during Audubon's business success in the Henderson years, he didn't paint birds in that period. Maybe that's because he was working!

Marni

I thought of another possible reason why there are not as many of Lucy's letters. As we'll see later, she lived longer than her husband, as do many women. If Audubon had saved Lucy's letters, it is possible she went through them after he died and destroyed some of her own, not wanting people to read them. I have read of this type of thing happening. Just a thought.

Another thing - re Audubon writing nearly every day. It sounds like his letter writing was like his personality in the book - rather flamboyant, free, sometimes explosive, ebullient. Maybe that is why he wrote so often - to get it all out. He wrote in his journal, too. Maybe he just liked getting his feelings and ideas out and on paper. Perhaps Lucy's letter writing was indicative of her personality - more sedate and quiet. Maybe she didn't have such a need to get her emotions out and on paper.

I am really enjoying getting to know Audubon. I can't believe he experienced so much that I have just learned in my old age. The last two years I have been following the Lewis and Clark celebrations since I live near the Missouri River in Iowa, my son lives near the river in South Dakota and my daughter along the river in Great Falls, Montana. How amazing to find out that John James knew both of them after their expedition. Also, the great earthquake he experienced!! I was on a river cruise and we stopped where the town had practically disappeared during that quake. Every day I find out how little I know. For example, the passenger pigeons!! I thought they must have been exotic, and Audubon writes how very numerous and destructive they were in spite of providing food. I am enjoying this book very much. I wanted to read it because of my love of watching birds but find much more to enjoy. When my friend and I traveled to Arkansas this spring, an ivory billed woodpecker had just been spotted. The book states that they are extinct, which was believed when the book was printed. Now I see that Elderhostel has a trip planned to go see the woodpecker. I think it might be a wonderful trip, but seriously doubt if they will be fortunate enough to see the elusive bird. What do you think?

Evelyn: Welcome! We're delighted to have you join the Audubon discussion!

You must really be enjoying the celebration over the Lewis and Clark expedition. What fun being in the heart of things, living near the Missouri River. There has been so much interesting information lately documenting and celebrating their trip. Were all learning a lot. You may be interested in joining Harold's discussion of the Ambrose book Undaunted Courage next year.

In September I was touring the Washington/Oregon/British Columbia area and saw numerous signs and statues of the expedition because of their trail around the Columbia River and Pacific Ocean. We neared Cape Disappointment and I wanted to see it. Several friends we were with thought I was absolutely nuts. One person said, "Who on earth cares about Lewis and Clark?" I couldn't believe my ears and I shouted, "I DO!"

I hope this new birding expedition finds and takes pictures of the ivory-billed woodpecker. It sounds as though experts really believe it's out there. How wonderful it would be if it were not really extinct.

Marni

evelyn_zzz; thank you for your post Please plan to stop by often with your comments, questions, answers or whatever. You will always be welcome.

I looked for my Gore Vidal , “Burr’” at the Guadalupe County house this afternoon but did not find it (another mysterious book disappearance). I probably loan it and forgot about it.

While searching for Burr, I found my large bound book of Audubon Birds. It is titled “Audubon’s Bird’s of North America. That explains why I was calling Audubon’s original works, Birds of North America.

I remember buying this book at an outlet Mall near Dallas in the early 1990;s, The publisher was the Wellfleet Press, Secaucus, N.J. with a publication date of 1990. It is a modern printing reproducing the original bird paintings plus new species of Western birds painted later. J.T.Bowen of Philadelphia originally lithographed the pictures about 1840. The page size was called royal octavo size; this is about 8 ½ X 11 inches.

I wish I had an accurate scale since it feels like it weighs about 10 lbs. The color printing of the male wild turkey to my judgment appeared too much redish brown although the painting of the Steller’s Jay was perhaps better, but not as accurate in reproducing fine detail as the Canon digital photos I took of this bird last September in New Mexico

Marni, the Introduction in this book mentions the fact that Lucy and a granddaughter edited Audubon’s Journals and letters after his death. I think the Granddaughter authored an early biography.

There's a wonderful book called "Bold Spirit" by Linda Hunt. It's a true story about a young woman from the upper mid-west who married at 16 and moved out onto the plains where she survived prarie fires, snow storms, tornadoes, locusts, etc. while having 5 children by age 22. They then moved to Spokane Washington and when the depression of 1893 came, they tho't they might lose their farm. Someone told her that a woman in NYC was going to pay any woman who would walk across the U.S., $10,000, if they did if within a certain period of time. The benefactor wantd to prove the endurance of women. So Helga and her 16 yr old dgt take on the task. They follow the railroad tracks, so they don't get lost, they can take only one change of clothes, $5 and whatever else they can carry, so they have to work as they go along to make money and get food.........i won't tell you any more in case you read it, but it's very adventuresome and true.

As i was reading about her years on the plains between 16 and 22 with 5 kids, i tho't "I'd be insane just getting thru that part, let alone taking on the task of walking across the country." What a brave woman. And by the way, the community shuns her when she gets back for leaving her family!! Now, if her husband had said, "I'm going to leave for 7 months to make $10,000 and save our farm. They would have said 'what a man!'"

JJA being unsuccessful at all those jobs reminds me of Harry Truman who failed at about four things - everything he tried - until he went into politics. I tell my students, don't give up until you find what you love and are good at......you might become president of the United STates........

Burr's dgt was a very smart, interesting woman and he treated her as an equal - or the way he might have treated a son, had he had one....jean

"Bold Spirit" sounds like a book that would make an interesting discussion. Hard to imagine someone being that brave, walking across the country with a daughter. Even today I couldn't begin to imagine doing something like that.

A young friend of mine decided to walk across Europe when she graduated from college, before she found a job. Her parents helped her come up with air fare. When she got to Europe, she had $35 and her backpack. She did it. She walked across Europe alone, meeting people along the way, staying in hostels, working here and there for short periods. This was in the 1990's. Today she is a criminal attorney. She's an amazing person.

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I enjoyed reading about some amazing women in Founding Mothers. I didn't learn very much about women in my history classes in school. They were generally about men. One woman in the book was Kitty Greene, General Nathaniel Greene's wife. (He was one of George Washington's most brilliant generals during the American Revolution.) Kitty was from a well-to-do family in Rhode Island and loved to party. She was a beauty and was usually the belle of the ball. She followed her husband and stayed with him often during the war. After the war, she and Nathaniel moved to South Carolina (I'm pretty sure that was it) to farm land he received from the govt. for his services. Almost immediately, he died of what may have been a stroke (at age 41 or thereabouts.) Kitty stayed to manage the farm.

Eli Whitney went to Kitty's town to teach and ended up staying at Kitty's place where they discussed the difficulty of getting seeds out of cotton. They came up with the idea of the cotton gin and partnered up to get a patent and produce it. Kitty backed Whitney with money she got from the govt. as backpay for her husband's military service. (She had to hound the govt. to get it.) Eli Whitney got the patent for the cotton gin and is credited with its invention. But, they both made a lot of money from it. Now, who ever learned in school that Kitty Greene played an important role in the invention of the cotton gin which changed the economy of the south?

How many more stories are there like these?

Marni

Welcome, Welcome Evelyn!

I enjoyed reading your post so much. Like you I am learning so much and enjoying the book and the discussion.

Mabel,

Like Lucy those women are truly remarkable. To have five children and live through such hardships makes those women heroic in my mind. I think these women should always live in our memories.

Harold,

Boy, you have quite a keepsake. It weighs ten lbs??

"J.T.Bowen of Philadelphia originally lithographed the pictures about 1840."

This book is not a keepsake. It is an antique. I can imagine your joy while looking at it.

Marni,

I also would love to read BOLD SPIRIT. It is truly amazing. I knew all my life about Eli Whitney. Yet, I have never heard of Kitty Greene, the woman he would marry. Her story sounds fascinating too.

I still intend to get FOUNDING MOTHERS on my next trip to the library.

There is a book titled THESE IS MY WORDS. It is about pioneer life too. It is historical fiction. Everybody raves about this book. Some of you might have heard of it.

Hats: Let's definitely read Bold Spirit and discuss it if SeniorNet selects it!

Yes, Kitty Greene's story was fascinating. She did not, however, marry Eli Whitney. When Kitty and husband Nathanael moved to Georgia, they took with them Phineas Miller, a Yale graduate who was tutor to the Greene's five children. Miller lived in their home. He stayed on after Nathanael's death when Kitty was 30 years old. Phineas and Kitty apparently fell in love and had an affair for some time, causing a huge scandal. I read one story where George Washington, Kitty's friend, advised her to marry Phineas and make it legal if she ever expected to get any of her dead husband's back pay from Congress. Kitty and Phineas married in 1790.

History can really be hot stuff!

Here are two versions of Kitty Greene's story. In the first link, you have to scroll down a number of paragraphs before Kitty's story begins. Look for: "Shortly after the American Revolution":

http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1972/3/1972_3_26.shtml

http://www.geocities.com/gmierka/code/catgr1.html

Marni

Marni, thanks for the links!

I hope we can discuss Bold Spirit.

I just finished reading the American Heritage article above about Kitty Greene. Looks like people also thought she had an illicit affair with "Mad" Anthony Wayne.

Bold Spirit : Helga Estby's Forgotten Walk Across Victorian America

Mabel, is this the book you are recommending?? If so, it is really interesting. I have just finished reading about it on Amazon.

So much there to discuss, but i don't want to get to far away from JJA. So, I'll just make these comments:

I'd love to have the time to read thru all the Amer.Heritage Magazines, that would be a college education in itself.

Isn't Cumberland Island where JFK, Jr was married?

Have any of you been there?

I've just begun to learn how important Greene was to our winning the Revolution. Even being a history major, i never had learned much about him in college, or much about the Southern strategy of the war.

Isn't it too bad that when we were in school history was so focused on wars, economics and politics, therefore "men's" history? There are so many wonderful women in all of history that we are slowly unearthing and people are writing about. I hope it continues and i stay alive long enough to get to read about them all My dgt gave me an autographed copy of "Founding MOthers" for my birthday, I've just gotten started in it.

Here's a picture or Nathaniel http://members.aol.com/JonMaltbie/NatGreene.html

Rhodes at times writes a sentence and just lets it hang out there and i'm thinking "o.k. what is that about?" On page 166 he writes of JJA saying "'Whenever i meet Indians, I feel the greatness of our Creator in all its splendor, for there i see the man naked from His Hand and yet free from acquired sorrow." and then goes on to talk about ARk flora and fauna.......Indians free from acquired sorrow??? What does that mean? I mean, i know what "acquired sorrow" means, but how can JJA think they have no sorrow, surely he knows what NA's lives are like. Is he romanticizing their lives as many did then and later?

He so likes to be out in the wilds looking for his birds, being unattached, maybe he sees their lives as ideal?

I always tho't my father and brothers and other male family members liked to go hunting and fishing because they got off by themselves in the quiet of nature. They pretended they were getting food for the family, or killing off predators or crop destroyers, but i think their real pleasure was to be out alone, unencumbered by annoying family members and family problems!?! And i understand that, that's what i'm doing when i read, or knit, or crochet - don't bother me!!......jean

Also, an interesting quirk of history that Rhodes passes over quickly is that Andrew Jackson became the war hero at New Orleans AFTER the war was over. He, of course, didn't know that, but the war had been declared over 2 weeks before that battle began.

Jean: Thanks for the wonderful link to info about Nathanael Greene. He was pretty much skipped over when I studied American history and he was so important to the cause. Boy, George Washington certainly had a talent for picking brilliant men for the right jobs. What a shame Greene died so young. I saw in the link that his son, George Washington Greene, died in 1793 by drowning in a river.

Enjoy Founding Mothers. I learned a lot from reading it. I wonder if it has been discussed already on SeniorNet. It would make for an extremely interesting Non-Fiction selection.

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Re: ".....yet free from acquired sorrow." Audubon does seem to have an image of the "noble savage" in mind when he writes about NAs. In light of what was happening in that area of the country, it is hard to understand how JJA would feel that way.

Audubon does seem to use bird hunting and drawing as an escape as well as a creative outlet. I think his wife must have been very patient living with him. However, it was certainly worth it for them both when his passion for birds resulted in one of the greatest bird books of all time - perhaps the greatest.

Marni

Marni,

I had a chance to see your post about discussing 'Founding Mothers.' I hope we get the chance to discuss it. Just thinking about it makes me excited.

_____________________________________________________________________

Reading about The Panic and the Louisiana Purchase is very interesting too. John James Audubon and Lucy Audubon lived in some very exciting times. So much change and progress happened constantly. ________________________________________________________________

Audubon did suffer a lot as he lived through The Panic. He had to worry about the needs of his family. Some people were very dishonest. Everybody had debts which were hard to pay. Not being able to pay debts can lead some people to very desperate actions. Did the acquisition of Louisiana lead to The Panic?

How were The Panics and The Louisiana Purchase connected? Is there no connection whatsoever?

When Napoleon decided to sell Louisiana how did the French people feel about his decision?

Hats: Some good questions! I hope Jean and Harold can help us out here.

Jefferson arranged to buy the Louisiana Purchase in 1803, I believe. The Panic was in 1819. There were some other reasons. I found my notes on this section of the book.

The War of 1812 had a big impact on America. It disrupted the economy. Exports shrank by 93.5%. Domestic production was stimulated but supply never caught up with demand. The federal govt. couldn’t collect tariffs for revenue and had borrowed to finance the war. New banks opened and increased the supply of money; inflation rocketed. There was a real estate boom and lots of land speculation. Cheap credit increased borrowing.

Then in 1817, I think, banks started calling in their debts and catching people off guard. I don't remember the reason. People couldn't pay and many lost their businesses. A recession resulted and it turned into a depression.

I have to do some research on the history of the Louisiana Territory.

Marni

I don’t think there was much connection between the Louisiana Purchase and the Panic of 1819. The two events were 16 years apart. Rhodes seems to be stressing the over extension of credit by banks and the calling of bank loans as a factor bringing on the panic. This seems to be an event leading to a natural downturn of the Economic cycle probably made worse from the aftermath of the indecisive conclusion of the War of 1812.

When Napoleon decided to sell Louisiana how did the French people feel about his decision?

I doubt that the average person in French Louisiana really cared much about the event. Remember French Louisiana had come under Spanish rule in the 1760, and remained Spanish until 1803 when through a European political dealing, it was transferred back to France. Napoleon, fearing the English would seize it, sold it to the U.S. perhaps thinking he could get it back later. The small French population was use to administrative changes and initially probably it was not seen as having much impact on their daily lives. I suspect a few years later they began to realize the great permanent changes that had occurred.

Here's a lot of history about who owned what in the Louisiana Territory:

The French

"The French had established themselves in the northern part of North America (Canada) in the mid-seventeenth century by securing control of the St. Lawrence and the Great Lakes. Paris sought to limit the English to the eastern coast of the continent by claiming the Mississippi and its tributaries, thereby gaining control of the interior of North America.

The first Frenchman to explore the lower Mississippi was Rene Robert Cavalier, Sieur de La Salle, who passed by New Orleans' site in April 1682 on a float down the Mississippi from Canada. De La Salle claimed the entire river basin from the Appalachians to the Rockies for France, naming the area Louisiana in honor of Louis XIV and his Austrian bride Queen Anne......An easier, shorter route between river and gulf was found as early as 1699 by the brothers Bienville and Iberville, with the aid of the Choctaws, who had used it for centuries. From the Gulf, sailing vessels at first followed the same route as that to Baton Rouge -- through the Mississippi Sound into Lake Borgne, then through the Rigolets into Lake Pontchartrain.

In 1718 Jean Baptiste La Moyne, Sieur de Bienville, established New Orleans as the capital of Louisiana and a fortress to control the wealth of the North American interior......New Orleans has experienced several major "historic-geographic" ages, each different because dominated by different people, attitudes and technology. Each period left New Orleans changed, with new sections attached to old ones. .....The city's population also changed in size and ethnic composition as new jobs appeared and old ones disappeared. The city's appearance changed as architectural styles, street patterns, and land use also changed. When each period was over, New Orleans found itself fundamentally different, with new economic and social connections with the outside world, a new internal geography, a new position with respect to other American cities, and facing the world in new directions. During each period, New Orleans' fortunes were linked with different parts of the nation and world."

The Spanish

"Defeated in the Seven Years War (1756-63), France was compelled by the Treaty of Paris to cede Canada and all the territory between the Appalachians and the Mississippi, including West Florida and Louisiana, north of Lake Pontchartrain, to Britain. The rest of Louisiana, including New Orleans, was handed over to the Bourbons of Spain."

http://www.madere.com/history.html#001

The French Again

"Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte had a vision of a renewed western empire for France, and his schemes included the recapture of Louisiana from Spain. Control over this vast territory would halt the westward expansion of the young United States and would supply French colonies in the West Indies with the goods they needed. In 1800, Napoleon signed the secret Treaty of Ildefonso with Spain, an agreement that stipulated that France would provide Spain with a kingdom for the son-in-law of Spain's king if Spain would return Louisiana to France. However, Napoleon's plan collapsed when the twelve-year revolt of slaves and free blacks in the French colony of Saint-Domingue succeeded, forcing French troops to return defeated to France and preventing them from reaching their ultimate destination--Louisiana--and from being able to defend it. As Napoleon's New World empire disintegrated, the loss of Haiti made Louisiana unnecessary."

The Americans

"The United States wanted to acquire the area near New Orleans primarily to guarantee its right to sail vessels down the Mississippi River through Spanish territory and unload goods at New Orleans for shipment to the Atlantic coast and Europe. Moreover, the United States wanted to possess the entire territory of Louisiana because so many American settlers and merchants were already in the region and because of its vital geographic position at the mouth of the Mississippi River.

The United States discovered the transfer of Louisiana from Spain to France and sent Robert Livingston to France in 1801 to try to purchase New Orleans. Napoleon initially refused, leading President Thomas Jefferson to send James Monroe to secure the deal. However, in April 1803, just days before Monroe was to arrive in Paris, Napoleon offered to sell the United States not only New Orleans but all of Louisiana. Napoleon's minister of the treasury, the Marquis de Barbé-Marbois, dealt with Livingston and Monroe over terms of the Louisiana Purchase. The United States purchased Louisiana for $11,250,000 and assumed claims of its own citizens against France up to $3,750,000, for a total purchase price of $15 million."

http://lsm.crt.state.la.us/cabildo/cab4.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Purchase

What a fascinating history New Orleans and Louisiana have. It makes what is happening there now even more tragic. Someone pointed out that New Orleans has more of a unique culture and identity than any other city in the US.

"for there i see the man naked from His Hand and yet free from acquired sorrow." The "acquired sorrow" that Audubon refers to is surely the shame that Adam and Eve felt at their nakedness after eating the apple. Or the curse that God put on them. Yes, it does seem to be sentimentalizing the Indians, as being like the first humans in the garden of Eden. Surely, A. saw too much of the hardship of the Indian's life to believe that.

We've seen in our book that the Spanish owned the territory west of the Mississippi River for a time when Audubon explored for business sites and went hunting. We also saw that Tom Bakewell wanted Audubon as his business partner in New Orleans because Audubon spoke French. You can see the mix of peoples living there.

I found out a few things about New Orleans when I visited the city last year. Many "Creoles" (original settlers living in Louisiana) stayed there when the ownership of the country changed hands. The original architecture in New Orleans was French. But there were several huge fires in New Orleans. Nearly all of the original French buildings burned down. Most of the very old houses that we associate with the "French Quarter" (the original city of New Orleans) today are actually of Spanish architectural design. They are very beautiful, built around courtyards, decorated with iron lacework.

Here's a photo of one of my favorite houses in the French Quarter:

Here's a picture of my husband standing inside the courtyard of our hotel which used to be a home. What a lovely building. A fountain bubbles to the right of Bob. Three houses abut to create the courtyard space. There are beautiful plantings, fountains, and seating areas in these relaxing courtyards.

I'm getting upset looking at these pictures. I'm talking like last year is today. What a terrible terrible tragedy to this beautiful city.

Here's a picture of The Cathedral of St. Louis IX, King of France, in the French Quarter of New Orleans. It began as a minor basilica, but became an established parish in 1720. Located on a bank of the Mississippi River, the cathedral is considered to be one of the greatest symbols of Catholicism on the North American continent.

Finally, my last picture for now....Old Ursulines Convent. It is the oldest building in the Mississippi River Valley and the only surviving building from the French Colonial period in the United States. It also houses Catholic archives dating back to 1718.

The Sisters of Ursula came to New Orleans in 1727 after a perilous journey. Once in town, they provided the first decent medical care, saving countless lives, and later founded the New Orleans' first school and orphanage for girls. They also helped raise girls shipped over from France as marriage material for local men, teaching the girls everything from languages to homemaking.

The convent dates from 1752 (the sisters themselves moved uptown in 1824, where they remain to this day).

It's not a great picture, but the convent gates were locked.

I might add to Marni’s excellent summary of French purpose in the Mississippi Valley, that after La Salle completed his navigation of the River to the Gulf he returned to French Canada and to Paris where he sold his plan to Louis XIV. With the Kings help he sailed in 1684 with four ships and 200 plus would be colonist to plant a French colony at the Mouth of the Mississippi.

The expedition sailed to the French colony on Haiti and from there due north to make landfall on the North Gulf coast. At Haiti La Salle was advised to expect strong easterly currents in the north Gulf leading him to assume he was east of his destination when he made landfall. Actually he was already west of the Mississippi so his westerly course took him away from his desired destination. Paralleling the coast his westerly course changed to southerly on to the central Texas cost where several relatively large rivers discharge into Matagorda bay. Thinking this was part of the Mississippi delta system he decided to enter the bay and land his people.

This was a fatal mistake compounded by the loss of his principal supply ship entering the bay. The abortive French colony lasted only a few years until disease and Indian warfare terminated the venture. During the first two years, 1685 & 86, La Sale explored the country and finely figured out his mistake. Leading an escape party he was assassinated by his own men near the Navasota River in East Texas. About 12 survivors under his Lieutenant Henri Joutel succeeded in reaching the Mississippi and French Canada. The Karankawa Indians destroyed the colony (Fort St Louis) sometime before April 1689 when the Spanish found its ruins.

The venture succeed only in installing the French Flags as one of the Six Flags of modern Texas and awaking the Spanish to the fact that world politics required Spanish settlements in Texas.

Tomorrow I have an all day instruction session for a pre-Columbian Exhibit at the ITC so it will be evening before I post.

This is quite a bit of information to take in but all of it is very, very interesting. Thank you Harold and Marni and JoanK.

The Chathedral is very beautiful! I can imagine the inside is breathtaking.

The Ursulines Convent is very old. What a wonderful piece of history! I might have heard a little bit about the Sisters of Ursula.

New Orleans is such a beautiful and unique place. I hope it can overcome this last disaster and still maintain its old and unique difference from other cities. The natives of NO must feel just heartbroken over their losses, not only personal losses but the wider range of loss, the city itself.

Marni,

This is a quote from one of the articles you posted.

"In 1718 Jean Baptiste La Moyne, Sieur de Bienville, established New Orleans as the capital of Louisiana and a fortress to control the wealth of the North American interior......New Orleans has experienced several major "historic-geographic" ages, each different because dominated by different people, attitudes and technology. Each period left New Orleans changed, with new sections attached to old ones. .....The city's population also changed in size and ethnic composition as new jobs appeared and old ones disappeared. The city's appearance changed as architectural styles, street patterns, and land use also changed. When each period was over, New Orleans found itself fundamentally different, with new economic and social connections with the outside world, a new internal geography, a new position with respect to other American cities, and facing the world in new directions. During each period, New Orleans' fortunes were linked with different parts of the nation and world."

New Orleans has seen a number of changes to its unique beauty. Since Hurricane Katrina, maybe we will live through another one of this great city's changes. People who have gone back to NO are saying the city will rise again.

I think Audubon might have mentioned this Warbler more than once in his writings. I don't see a photo in the book. I bet this warbler is awfully pretty. I like yellow birds.

Hats: I don't see the Yellow Rumped Warbler in the online Birds of America either. Here is a link to a photo, sound, and other info about the Yellow Rumped Warbler:

http://www.mbr-pwrc.usgs.gov/id/framlst/i6550id.html

Today we begin our Week 3 discussion. New discussion questions will be posted today for your consideration. I'd like to just touch upon several things we have not yet discussed about Week 2's discussion questions.

It was during the Henderson, KY, years that Audubon drew a picture of an otter caught in a trap gnawing off its own foot to get free. This picture was to prove very important. Its horror fascinated people. Over the years, Audubon was to learn to paint the otter picture in oils, which sold at a higher price than pastels and watercolors. He repainted it many times, could paint it quickly, and sold the paintings to supplement his income. According to its information on the web, here is a print of the otter. It's called the Canada Otter, so I'll keep searching to verify if this is the one:

http://www.philaprintshop.com/images/audq851.jpg

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During this period, Audubon sometimes would keep birds he caught and train them and paint them.

Audubon began painting portraits of people to support his family. These were very popular because there were no photographs at that time. Portraits of the dead or the dying were popular as people grasped at one last opportunity for a lasting image of a dear one.

Audubon also accepted a position as a painter of portraits & landscape backgrounds for display cases at Western Museum of Cincinnati College for a brief period. He taught painting & drawing at girls’ academies; then he opened his own school while he continued to do portraits. He had one-man art show.

Audubon saw at the museum Alexander Wilson’s books & saw they were mid-Atlantic birds. Audubon began visualizing the idea of painting the birds of the territory southwest of the Mississippi. He prepared to explore the southwest frontier to paint birds along with young Joseph Mason who could paint fauna. Audubon was certainly trying everything in his power to come up with ways to support his family using his unique skills.

Since Audubon will now be searching for birds in southwest Mississippi River area, I'm going to post a photo of a special area. Avery Island, in the deltaic wetlands of Louisiana southwest of Lafayette, LA, was created by the upwelling of ancient salt deposits that exist beneath the Mississippi delta region. At its highest point it is only 152 feet above sea level. The McIlhenny family, who owns the island, experimented with pepper plants here. Using their pepper plants and the island's salt, they invented Tabasco Sauce, which still today is made only on Avery Island.

The McIlhenny family created a wildlife and bird preserve on the island. 20,000 snowy egrets nest here in a bird sanctuary on special platforms in a lagoon off the island. Here's a picture of the nesting egrets. Each nest had babies peeking out at this time, but the photo is not clear enough to show them.

I wonder if the platforms still exist now after the hurricane. I hope so.

Here also is Audubon's painting of the Great American White Egret.

http://www.audubon.org/bird/BoA/images/originals/00630p1.gif

Photos of the snowy egret:

http://www.nhptv.org/natureworks/snowyegret.htm

Marni

story, so i looked it up!! "A large pile of dung, or animal droppings." I think there must have been a lot of "middens" w/ all those birds all thru the Mississippi Valley - thousands and thousands - holy middens!!.....jean

There is no picture of a Yellow Rumped Warbler in my Audubon book. Click Here for information from the Cornell Bird page. This source notes that until recently, the Yellow-rumped Warbler was considered to be two separate but closely related species, Myrtle Warbler and Audubon's Warbler. There are pictures of both of these birds iin the Audubon book. A google search on Yellow Rumped Warbler yields many additional hits.

Jean According to an on-line Webster's dictionaly your definition of “midden as "A large pile of dung, or animal droppings." Is the original old Norse meaning and much too restrictive so far as today’s use is concern. In modern American English it would mean a pile of refuse. In archaeology a “kitchen Midden” would typically mean, a pile of stones used by successive generations of people to stone boil meals. In addition to stones the piles might include assorted bones of different animals, birds, and fish as well as pottery shards, tools and other artifacts. Sometimes such a pile might have been used generation after generation for even thousands of years and revesl the cultural history of the people..

MARNI: your search led you astray. The Audubon painting that you linked to is not a Snowy Egret, but a Great Egret, a different species. Here are some photos of the great egret and a description of how you can tell the two apart. If you click on the phrase "snowy egret", you will easily see the differences. The great egret has a yellow bill and black feet, as Audubon shows it. The snowy egret has a black bill and in breeding season, the wonderful "golden slippers" on its feet. Look for them in the pictures -- they are just as flashy in real life as in the photos.

GREAT EGRET

They grow their famous "plumes" in breeding season. It was almost their doom -- so many were shot to provide those plumes to fashion that they were on the way to extinction before it became illegal

These pictures were taken at one of the most wonderful natural treasures that I'm lucky to live near -- Assateague Island. This is where the small ponies come from that kids ride in fairs, descended from ponies that survived the shipwreck of a Spanish ship. It is also a refuge for almost every species of bird that likes water.

Yellow-rumped warbler is an example of something that happens often. The names of birds are assigned by humans, and there is a constant struggle to make the naming system conform better to what is found in the natural world. Different organizations are in charge of the (in the US it's the AOU -American Ornithological Union.

The system used was originally devised by a Swede, Linnaeus. The basic unit is the "species". Different animals are held to be of the same species if they interbreed freely in the wild. Thus, in terms of evolution, members of a species share evolutionary history and future. All humans are one species-- homo sapiens.

There is a problem. If two populations of animals are separated by geographic barriers so that they never meet, how do you know if they would interbreed if they did meet? the answer is: you don't -- you guess. In the US, the Rockies and great plains are such a barrier for birds. If the Western birds look different from the Eastern birds, it is assumed that they are different species. But someone is always finding a valley in Arizona or somewhere where two "species" meet and interbreed freely. So every so many years, the AOU reviews the evidence. If they make a change in classification, they change the name.

This happened to the Myrtle and Audubon's Warbler -- renamed the Yellow-Rumped. Worse, it happened to our state bird, the Baltimore Oriole. (You would think it would be illegal to abolish a state bird -- that AOU is getting too big for it's britches!) It proved to be the same species as the Western Bullock's Oriole. So they are combined as the Northern Oriole. Ever since, the baseball team has been in a slump.

Harold: Thanks for the info about egrets. What a wonderful place nearby for you to view the wildlife. Audubon's picture that I put a link to is called the "Great American White Egret." I knew it wasn't a snowy egret. I put the snowy egret pictures there because that's what we saw on Avery Island.

The only other place I've seen many egrets is in southern Maine on the coast - a marsh right across the street from George Bush, Sr.'s complex in Kennebunkport. I was watching the marsh when suddenly hundreds of egrets and great blue herons were startled and flew up in the air from where they had been hidden by the tall grasses. It was unbelievable. But I don't know what kind of egret they were.

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Yes, the otter picture in the link is Audubon's "potboiler" Otter Caught in a Trap picture. A black and white print of it is in our book on page 262. You can see how the print in the book is slightly different from the one in the link. Audubon must have revised them for the occasion.

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JoanK: Interesting about the bird name changes. I had no idea they changed the name of the Baltimore Oriole. I would have been very upset if I had lived in your state!!

Marni

JoanK,

I love those "golden slippers!"

Marni we must thank JoanK, not me, for the information on the Egrets. Thank you Joan.

I got a kick of a sort out of the "fair Incognito" situation. I thought of a late college roommate, an architecture major whose specialty was painting classic style female nudes. I also thought in Audubon’s day so far as the US was concern, it would only happen in New Orleans.

Regarding JJ & Lucy during this period, it was a trying time for them as a family what with the death of the daughter and the dour financial situation following the bankruptcy.

Again the couple found it necessary to be separated. In this period the separation while only several hundred miles, was for communication purposes sufficient to render them far apart. Though JJ frequently sent money to the family, it was fortunate that Lucy's teaching and governess capability also contributed substantially to the children’s support. Again I do wish I had kept a running record of the cumulative time span that the couple spent separated during their married life. It was certainly substantial.

I think Lucy must have felt a fair amount of curiosity about the "fair incognito." I'm sure Lucy felt happy when Audubon went back to drawing birds and portraits, not nude ladies.

This story gave me a good chuckle. This woman wears a veil, undresses behind a curtain and doesn't want Audubon to divulge anything about her. Then, she corrects some of Audubon's lines on the drawing. I bet Audubon never forgot this strange lady of the night.

If she had proved indiscreet in any way, I think Audubon would have run for his life! To me, Audubon seems very wholesome and definitely true to Lucy. All his mind is on are birds, family and making enough money to support his family.

There were long separations for Lucy and Audubon. In no way were these separations caused by family arguments. Both Lucy and Audubon hated the time away from one another.

Remember Belle in Gone with the Wind? I kept thinking of her while reading about the "fair incognito." Belle, so gentle and ladylike, humble and beautiful.

Sorry about that, Joan!!

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Re: "the fair incognito"....I did wonder about Audubon and affairs. He certainly loved the ladies and was very vain and concerned about his appearance. And the ladies certainly seemed to love him. At social affairs it seems belles were always flocking around him and he was always the center of attention. (Or is that just the way he perceived it and wrote about himself?) There are a number of instances in the book where people have described Audubon in letters as "the most handsome man they ever met" or some such thing. But it does seem that he blabbed all in his letters and journals. He was a very open person. Either he hadn't had affairs so far, or he didn't write about them, or Lucy deleted information about them from his writings after he died.

I bet Lucy worried, though, especially when Audubon wrote about such things as the "fair incognito" to her. They were apart so often. She knew women were attracted to him and vice versa. We just don't see what might have been going through her head. We hear very little of Lucy's words and thoughts in this book.

Marni

As Thanksgiving is nearly here, I've been thinking about turkeys. One of Audubon's most famous paintings, "Wild Turkey," is in our book's colored prints near page 388. (His seal stamped on his prints is engraved with this turkey along with the words "America My Country.") I was just reading a history of American turkeys on the internet and found Audubon's "Wild Turkey" painting is there along with some of his words about turkeys, including the following:

"Brilliant artist and naturalist, John James Audubon thought highly of the patriotic qualities of the turkey. [He wrote]: 'Male turkeys can turn their heads red, white and blue by controlling the flow of oxygen to their heads while strutting.'"

I got a big chuckle out of that!

Here's the article about turkeys:

http://www.wildturkeyzone.com/wildturkey/speciesb.htm

Marni

Marni,

Thank you for the turkey article. Also, thank you for pointing me to page 388.

I've been hunting for a photo of a Connecticut wild turkey and can't find a good one. I'm so surprised because there are so many articles and photos of them - just not a good one.

The Connecticut wild turkey has come back. They're all over the place now. It's great! We had a flock of them in back of the building where I worked in Simsbury. They're black and huge. I nearly ran one down recently as it crossed the road in front of me. My sister, who lives in Lyme, CT, has wild turkeys in her yard.

I read that there are four sub-species in CT. I have no idea which is the black turkey that is so prevalent now around here.

is because all of the family comes to our house and we have basically the same meal every time: turkey, mashed potatoes, sweet potatoes, stuffing, peas and cranberry sauce and dessert is sweet potato and pumpkin pie. In my growing up days, the men in my family went turkey and deer hunting on Thanksgiving morning. Turkey is my favorite "wild" meat. Turkey tastes great AND is so easy to prepare - what more could you ask for?

Joan - is your state Maryland? re: Baltimore Oriole?

Yummy! Jean, your dinner sounds so good. Our traditional dinner is pretty much the same, but without the wild turkey. We buy a fresh turkey at the grocery store. That must have been wonderful having such a fresh turkey. I have never tasted either wild turkey or deer meat, unfortunately.

I must say, I don't think turkey is so easy to cook. You must be an excellent cook. I think it's a lot of work, although it's worth it. Thank goodness, my sister is cooking the turkey this year. I'm baking a pecan pie, a sweet potato pie, and I'm making Indian pudding for the first time. Should be interesting and, I hope, delicious!

Marni

Ah, turkey talk is bringing back Thanksgiving memories. When I first got married, it was our tradition to go to my mother-in-law's for Thanksgiving dinner. Everyone brought something, of course. One year, she got tired of preparing the turkey dinner. We got there and no dinner. She ordered chicken dinners from Kentucky Fried Chicken! What a shock! That was the end of that. Afterwards, we rotated hosting the dinner.

Marni

Everybody comes to my house for turkey dinner. I cook the same menu every year: turkey, mashed sweet potatoes, greens, rice, gravy, cranberry sauce and dressing. My dessert can change from year to year.

What do you think the Audubons Thanksgiving dinner would have been like?

I wonder if turkey was the main meal in much of America then?

My husband's family has a couple of food traditions for thanksgiving that my family doesn't have. They always fix creamed onions and also scalloped oysters. Another sister-in-law, who is of Italian heritage, always fixes pasta with the rest of the fixin's. My family always makes a jelloed cranberry salad with oranges, grapes, and walnuts cut up in it - my grandmother's recipe.

I seem to remember conversations between Audubon and his English hosts from the “1826 Journal referring to the American foods of turkey and corn. I could not find the references in the index but as I recall the English appeared to have liked the roast turkey but not the.corn. Only Audubon and the American Council relished the boiled Corn-on-the-cob.

In my family today at my brothers the turkey will probably come from one of the many German Fredericksburg restaurants. My assignment is to bring the pumpkin pies a tasked that will be accomplished quite easily with the aid of the “Mrs. Smith” Corporation.

In early 1980’s I would assist my mother during her late years in preparing the Turkey. Her recipe took 12 eggs, a large loaf of stale bread, several pounds of ground sirloin, chopped onions and celery, salt, pepper, sage and a pound or more of butter. She began by browning the meat with the seasoning vegetables, salt pepper and sage, mixing in the bread, cooling the mixture and mixing in the beaten egg mixture. The quantity was sufficient to fill the bird cavity with a copious quantity left to cook in the baking pan outside the turkey. It would than slow roast 3 hours or more with frequent basting with the melted butter. The drippings would then be mixed with the chopped giblets and a flour/water mixture to make gravy.

Previously before 1950 oysters had been included in the mixture but at some point back then the left-overs the next day had resulted in a family epidemic of the grippers causing this ingredient to be scratched from the recipe.

After my mother passed and we began to celebrate Thanksgiving at my brother’ a Fredericksburg, it was I who drew the turkey preparation assignment. Well despite my several year of apprenticeship, the universal judgment was that it was time to go to the professionals for the turkey.

Wild turkeys are coming back in South Texas also Click Here for a picture I took January 6, 2001 at my place tin Guadalupe county.

Harold,

Your home page is gorgeous! The Magpie is beautiful!! I am going back again to finish enjoying the pages. I love the GoldFinch too! What a wonderful hobby!

As I read further, I do read about some disagreements between Lucy and JA. I suppose a long distance relationship can cause a strain between two people no matter how much they might love one another.

Besides, Lucy had so much to deal with on her own. Lucy dealt with the children and their problems, she dealt with her father's death. I remember my parents death. Having my husband beside me was very comforting.

Also, Lucy doesn't seem shy about offering her opinion. Audubon taught students individually while Lucy felt a school would have been better.

So, I think Rhodes makes Aududbon and Lucy's relationship like real life, not like a fairy tale. They had their ups and downs even though their words were spoken not face to face but on paper.

Whoops, the arguments are becoming more and more heated.

Harold: Your mother's recipe sounds so delicious! Oh, I can't wait for Thanksgiving! My stuffing recipe is much simpler, a bread stuffing; but yours sounds scrumptious!

You lucky! You got the wild turkey picture! I can't even find one of our turkeys. But I think they look like yours. Yours look black. I wonder if wild turkeys in Texas are the same as wild turkeys in CT?

Marni

Yes, Hats, the Audubons' relationship was not all sunshine and roses. They had such strains placed on their marriage what with the business difficulties, bankruptcy, separation from each other and separation from their families, struggles finding work, the deaths of two children, struggles to support two more with little money, dad gone much of the time, mom working. And then Audubon and the nude fair maiden to paint at the same time that Lucy is not receiving the money Audubon is sending her from New Orleans.

It must have hurt both of them when Lucy's brother and brother-in-law refused to help Audubon in his efforts to find work. What do you suppose it meant that they refused to help him?

Marni

Harold: What facility are you using to create your web pages? You have such a terrific website.

Marni; Regarding the Texas Wild Turkeys I think they are the same variety as your New England bird. My picture made in 2001 was with my first generation 2 megapixel camera taken from 150 feet away (as close as I could get) and only a 3X zoom. The color is accordingly not too accurate.

I think the color of many Audubon birds as shown on the web and in current printed books is of questionable color accuracy. Based on my observation of the real bird I think the picture in my Audubon book is much too brown. Even the color rendition in the Rhodes book is a bit to brown for me.

Accurate color reproduction must have been a real problem in the original subscription edition since the color was hand applied to the printed picture by a human colorist, Quite likely different colorists were employed. I expect there must have been noticeable color differences between different copies.

Marni, I use the Microsoft office HTML editor program, Front Page. This is a part of the office package but not included in most computer sales packages. Front Page is available for something over $100.00. I think it is still less than $200 Mine is an old version attached to Office 2000.

This type of software makes it very easy to enter text in plain English and insert pictures and links etc. Also It makes detailed learning of html code unnecessary since the program translates the instructions given into html code. Unfortunately the way it writes code does not jive well with Seniorsnet requirements but that is not a problem if your purpose is your home page. We have our Techie staff to do our Seniorsnet pages.

Come to think of it you can do almost the same thing using word and saving the result as a Web page, htm file. In designing my pages I tend to create them in tables, usually 2 columns wide. I then put pictures on one side and descriptive text on the other.

If you are any other participants have further questions or want additional comment on the Front Page Program send me an E-mail .

You got it, I'm in Maryland.

Harold, your pictures on your bird page are wonderful.

I would agree w/ Harold that the JJA pic of wild turkey is a little too colorful. The ones in Pa and NJ are darker, but still mostly browns and blacks with the light feathers on the wings. By the way, i haven't had a wild turkey for more than 40 years. I get my T-giving turkey from one of those things called a store. Altho' my Pa family still often gets a fresh turkey from an Amish family that lives near them.

Is there a Fredricksburg in Texas? Didn't know that.

In this reading section Rhodes talks of JJA defending the catbirds. I had never seen a catbird until about 10 years ago a family showed up in our yard here in NJ and has been back nearly every year since then. I really like them; they have a nice sleek body w/ the subtle gray and black markings and they have the most beautiful, varied song. They also nest in the bushes around the house, so we can watch the eggs and watch for the hatchings.......jean

Mabel: Just this year for the first time catbirds started coming to my yard. They like the blueberries in my blueberry bush right next to my den window. I have an excellent view of them from inside the house. I wasn't sure if they were catbirds and had to check my bird book. I love their long pert tails.

Do you know if they make a variety of mimicking sounds like the mocking bird?

Marni

The pictures there make me homesick for Pa. My Dad had some mountain land that had a small stream just like that running thru it. My brother now owns it, but i don't get there very often. I always wished our kids had had the opportunity to get out and roam in the mountains the way i could as a kid. South Jersey has no mountains......

Yum, can i come to your house for T-giving dinner, Harold, that stuffing sounds lushish.....

I think if i was Lucy, I would be pretty ticked at JJA for just up and leaving - going somewhere else, to find work. Was that always necessary? There are people everywhere who might want portraits painted, certainly closer to the family then where he kept running off to. There was no suggestion that he agonized over going to PHiladelphia, or to New Orleans in the first place. Yes, he talked about how he missed his family, but HE KEPT LEAVING!

Joseph Buonoparte lived about 20 miles north of where we live now in Bordentown, NJ. His estate was for years used as a monastery by the Cisterians (sp?). But I've heard recently that they may be using it as a tourist attraction. There was a secret tunnel that ran from the basement to the Delaware River in case his European enemies came to get him.

And one last point, Philadelphia was really the cultural center of the country at this time and had been for many decades. It gets so overshadowed by NYC now that we forget how important it was to the country. It had the largest port for a long time and the best university,scientific agencies and hospitals. Jefferson sent Lewis and Clark there to bone up before they went on their journey. And many more immigrants came to PHila at this time then thru any other port.

Oh no, one more thing that's interesting to me - Jefferson was a "small government" advocate when he ran for the presidency, but he did two things, at least, that extended the govt's influence significantly - he started WEst POint Academy to train a corp of military officers and he bought the Louisiana Territory!!! It was actually an illegal move to buy the property, he had no authority to do that and he didn't get Congress' o.k. until after he told his envoys to tell France we would buy it. Gee - does that general activity sound familiar? "I believe in small gov't, but........we need to do this!".......jean

You must be a late-nighter like me.....

I just checked in my Smithsonian Handbook Birds of North America. This is what is says about the catbird song:A mixture of sweet to melodious, thin to squeaky, and sometimes abrasive phrases mixed w/ pauses. Does not repeat phrases like other eastern mimic thrushes. Some individuals mimic sounds of other birds, amphibians, and machinery and incorporate them into their song. (I love that.) Distinctive "mew" notes often included in the phrases. Has call of quiet "mew." Also a harsh "quit" or "chack." ....jean

Jean: Thanks for looking up the catbird sound info. I had totally forgotten about it making the "mew" sound. That must be why it's called a catbird. So cute! I thought that the catbird and the mockingbird looked sort of alike and made similar sounds. But, I just looked up pictures on the web and they don't look alike there at all. Hmmm.

Harold: I'm veering off course here, but thought I'd mention it. I noticed just now that the mockingbird is the Texas state bird. Do you have any nearby? I understand they can be REALLY loud. My sister had one living near her house awhile back. It seemed the mockingbird woke up at 2:00 a.m. every daily and starting singing loudly waking up the neighborhood. My brother-in-law was about ready to shoot it, not that he has a gun or anything.

Marni

I just wanted to mention one more thing about Audubon's wild turkey, even though I'm skipping ahead in our book. The timing seems right. His wild turkey was the very first plate in The Birds of America - the very first picture that people saw when they received their first edition. Also, a friend had a seal made for Audubon that he used to stamp the plates in his book. The seal was engraved with Audubon's wild turkey and said "America My Country." I think that is wonderful.

Did you see in one of the links that Benjamin Franklin wanted the wild turkey to be named America's national bird, symbol of America, rather than the bald eagle?

Marni

Jean: I did not realize that it was Jefferson who made West Point our army's military academy. That is interesting. Do you have any idea who made Annapolis our navy and marine academy?

I visited West Point for the first time this past spring. You now need a military pass or ID to get in. Luckily, our friend with us was a retired National Guardsman and had his ID. I did not know until fairly recently that West Point had been a fort before it was the military academy! We found out why it was so strategically important. It is situated on a bluff overlooking a sharp bend in the Hudson River. Any ship sailing up the river would have to be negotiating the turns just at that point below the fort. West Point had heavy guns guarding the river there and also guns were placed on the opposite shore. A chain was hung across the river, but underwater so it could not be seen. When an enemy ship reached the chain, it got snagged and stopped. Then the guns could go into effect. There is still a piece of the giant chain displayed at the top of the bluff.

By the way, the largest military museum in the world is at West Point. It is extremely interesting.

Marni

The Audubon family had its plentiful share of illness and disease, probably quite typical of the times because of medical knowledge then and their exposure to diseases of the territories where the family lived and traveled. Here's a run-down on the family health problems we've read about to date:

Audubon himself was always prone to seasickness. I thought it interesting that he had been a midshipman in the French navy, hated it, was seasick often, deserted, was punished and returned, and his father finally got him out with his naval connections.

Audubon fell very ill with yellow fever, a killer disease spread by mosquitos, when he arrived in New York from France. He was nursed back to help by Quakers. He became very ill again with yellow fever in approx. 1819 in Natchez and was nursed back to health by a doctor. In 1823, both Audubon and son Victor became extremely ill with yellow fever and Lucy nursed them. They were lucky to have lived through this.

Audubon had several near-death accidents. Once he fell through the ice in an ice-skating accident and popped up amazingly in another hole. (Almost hard to believe.) He developed an abcess and a fever and was nursed back to health by Lucy.

Both Audubon and Lucy got malaria, another killer disease spread by mosquitos, which was treated with powdered Peruvian cinchona (natural source of quinine). They had recurrences of this disease. I think that once you get malaria, it can reccur through your lifetime.

Lucy's mother died of dysentery when Lucy was a teenager. Later Lucy's father had a stroke and may have had alzheimer's. Eventually, he died. Later Lucy's stepmother died, but I don't know the cause.

Audubon's natural mother died shortly after he was born. His father and stepmother died later in life. I don't think we read the cause. Anybody know?

The Audubon's first daughter, Lucy, was born a hydrocephalic and died after two years. Their second daughter, Rose, died of a fever at 7 months.

Audubon hurt his hand badly (temporarily?) trying to fix the steam mill engine.

Lucy lost a number of teeth when she was in her 20's.

Considering the amount of hard living and exposure on the frontier and in mosquito-infested areas, it's amazing how healthy the Audubons were. They must have been very robust from the incredible amount of exercise and some good genes.

Marni

Marni, as you said. the Mockingbird is the State bird of Texas and is very common in the San Antonio area. Despite my many opportunities, I do not have a photo of it. This is because as an insect eater it was not attracted to the seed feeders outside my Guadalupe County Office window where I did much of my Texas birds photography. I often saw mockingbirds on hot summer afternoons drinking from the small water garden pond. I'm not surprised to hear about the 2:00 AM serenade since they are know for their loud calls copied from other birds.

The Bonaparte who was Audubon’s associate was Charles Lucian Bonaparte (1803 – 1857). He was the son of Lucian Bonaparte a brother of Napoleon I. In 1822, he married his cousin, princess Zénaïde Bonaparte, daughter of Joseph Bonaparte, another brother of Napoleon who had been king of Spain. Audubon had great respect for Lucian’s ornithological knowledge and accepted him as a professional associate. Lucian in turn gave Audubon advice concerning the publication of his drawings and supported him in Philadelphia where he was not popular.

I think the Joseph Bonaparte Estate Jean referred to was the property of Lucian’s father-in-law Joseph the ex King of Spain. He had come to America after Waterloo. Only one of Napoleon’s close associates survived politically after Napoleon’s downfall; this was Marshal Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte who had been adopted by the childless King Charles XIII of Sweden in 1811 at the height of Napoleon’s power. After Sweden had abandon its alliance with Napoleon because of the 1812 invasion of Russia, Bernadotte succeeded Charles as King of Sweden in 1818 establishing a dynasty that still survives today.

Yes Jean there is a Fredericksburg Texas. It is located in the hill country about 75 miles north of San Antonio. It is a delightful German town known for its many great German restaurants

Click Here for a short history

Click Here for current Information..

MABEL and MARNI: you have good eyes! The catbird and mockingbird are close relatives, members of the family of "mimic thrushes" (the third member is the brown thrasher, not as well known because it's a lot shyer).

These are good birds to notice "family resemblances". All three of these birds are completely different colors, but they are all exactly the SAME SHAPE. Shape is so important in recognizing the family of a bird that Roger Tory Peterson, who wrote the most popular bird guides, claimed he could identify any bird if he saw it's silouhette, he didn't need to see its color.

Other things that families of birds often share in addition to shape are size, habitat, behavior, and type of song or call.

Using these, most of us recognize many of the families or subfamilies found in the US: duck, woodpecker, swallow, hawk, hummingbird, etc. even if we don't know what species it is. This is great, because bird identification books are organized by family. If you know what family it is, you can quickly turn to the few pages where it will be found, if not, you have a lot of pages to flip through.

Then the specific colors and markings tell you which of the species within the family it is.

Back in a minute.

I had been very surprised when I read that Audubon saw and painted "Carolina Paroquets." I thought parakeets were birds from the tropics. Well, tonight I was completely flabbergasted. The evening news on TV ran a story that at least 100 parakeet nests in New Haven, CT, may be destroyed and parakeets killed by the electric company because they are interfering with wires. A citizens group is protesting.

100 nests of parakeets in New Haven??!!! They showed a videoclip of a beautiful green New Haven parakeet repairing a nest.

JoanK: I thought I remembered from somewhere that there was similarity between mockingbird and catbird. I must have read something about it in my little Birds of the Northeast paperback. I thought their tails were similar - long and perky. I'm going to have to get my bird book out.

You know so much about birds! Have you studied them? Are you in a birdwatcher's club or anything like that?

Marni

In addition to the same shape, all of the mimic thrushes have similar voices and ability to mimic sounds that they here. They will sing a wide variety of songs. You can tell which of the three is singing because the mockingbird sings the same refrain over and over. The thrasher sings it twice, then change to a different one. The catbird sings each refrain only once.

They have a common voice quality, that you learn to recognize. But the mockingbird's is the purist -- they are beautiful singers. The thrasher is very slightly deeper (like a viola vs. a violin). The catbird is the least musical, often rough. And mews like a cat. One year I had all three nesting near my house, and got a lot of practice distinguishing them.

Mockingbirds are amazing mimics. One year I had a new record of a piece by Mozart which I liked a lot and played a lot. The local mockingbird learned it, and I would hear Mozart being sung to me from the trees. It even made me forgive him for singing in the middle of the night.

Mozart! That is completely amazing! How fun for you! Oh, I'd love to hear that!

Do you have any idea if they can mimic voices, too, like parrots?

I was thinking of the times the Audubons and others in the book got sick with malaria and yellow fever. I recently read that about 20,000 Frenchmen died mainly from malaria and yellow fever while building the Panama Canal, starting in 1870. It wasn't understood that mosquitos caused disease until Walter Reed proved it in about 1900.

I looked up malaria. Today over two million people die every year from malaria! Here's some more info:

"Malaria is a serious and sometimes fatal disease which is widespread in many tropical and subtropical countries. It is caught by being bitten by an infected mosquito that is carrying the malaria parasites in its saliva. The malaria parasite is a microscopic organism called a Plasmodium and it belongs to the group of tiny organisms known as protozoans..... The species of mosquito that carries the malaria parasites is the Anopheles mosquito.

These parasites enter the host's bloodstream when bitten by an infected mosquito and then migrate to the liver where they multiply before returning back into the bloodstream to invade the red blood cells. The parasites continue to multiply inside the red cells until they burst releasing large numbers of free parasites into the blood plasma causing the characteristic fever associated with the disease. This phase of the disease occurs in cycles of approximately 48 hours.

The free parasites are then able to infect any mosquito that feeds on the host's blood during this phase. The cycle then continues as the parasites multiply inside the mosquito and eventually invade its salivary glands.

Malaria occurs in over 100 countries and more than 40% of the people in the world are at risk. Large areas of Central and South America, Hispaniola (Haiti and the Dominican Republic), Africa, the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, Southeast Asia, and Oceania are considered malaria-risk areas.

Symptoms of malaria include fever and flu-like illness, including shaking chills, headache, muscle aches, and tiredness. Nausea, vomiting, and diarrhoea may also occur. Malaria may cause anaemia and jaundice (yellow colouring of the skin and eyes) because of the loss of red blood cells. Infection with one type of malaria, P. falciparum, if not promptly treated, may cause kidney failure, seizures, mental confusion, coma, and death.

For most people, symptoms begin 10 days to 4 weeks after infection, although a person may feel ill as early as 8 days or up to 1 year later. Two kinds of malaria, P. vivax and P. ovale, can relapse; some parasites can rest in the liver for several months up to 4 years after a person is bitten by an infected mosquito . When these parasites come out of hibernation and begin invading red blood cells, the person will become sick.

Malaria can be cured with prescription drugs. The type of drugs and length of treatment depend on which kind of malaria is diagnosed, where the patient was infected, the age of the patient, and how severely ill the patient was at start of treatment.

More info: http://www.traveldoctor.co.uk/malaria.htm

Info about Walter Reed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Reed

Infor about Walter Reed and yellow fever: http://www.med.virginia.edu/hs-library/historical/yelfev/tabcon.html

These are the best posts ever!! I laughed and laughed about the mockingbird, the mimic of Mozart near JoanK's house.

And learning that a bird is recognizable without color, just by silhouette is wonderfully exciting, interesting and new to me.

I felt very badly for the parakeets becoming entangled in the lines too.

No wonder Audubon and others, unknown by me, ornithologists spend so much time studying just birds. It could take a lifetime of study, I believe.

It's interesting to have all of those who suffered illnesses catalogued together too and also a description of the illnesses too. Thank you for the hunting and gathering.

Click Here for a Yahoo map of the New Orleans French Quarter. Though this is a modern map the area shown was really the City of New Orleans as it existed when Audubon lived there in 1821. Audubon’s first residence was #34 Barracks St that is near the right top of the map. He and his side kick Joseph Mason lived there. The rent was $10 a month.

There does seem to be a certain parallel to the city in 1821 and its model later in the 20 century, including Sunday afternoon with the levee crowded with the polyglot population. Audubon described the market giving particular notice to the dressed owls being offered for sale at $0.25 each. They were it seems relished for making gumbo. There was also music and Audubon notes the Quadroon Ball on Conde street. He did not have the dollar required for admission, but he listened from the street outside the hall as tourists might more recently have done. There was also mention of a coffee house with free music. I wonder if that distinctive Jazz beat had yet been heard?

Audubon supported himself and earned money for Lucy by painting portraits including the ”Fair incognito” and the English Counsel. He also continued to add new bird paintings to his collection. When Lucy finally arrived with the kids to join him after a 22 months separation Audubon rented a larger house at #55 Dauphine Street. This house apparently still exists as #515 which would be on Dauphine Street just northeast of St Louis (between St Louis and Toulouse Streets). They did not stay there long since they soon departed for Bayou Sarah.

In New orleans Audubon met Alexander Gordon a cotton Factor later, JJ's brother-in-law married to Ann Bakewell. We will hear more of him in later weeks after the couple had returned to Liverpool and Audubon traveled there to arrange the publication of his pictures.

I think if that "distinctive Jazz beat had been sounding off in the streets of New Orleans Audubon would have tapped his foot and nodded his head. I bet he would have been intoxicated with the sound. I haven't had Owl Gumbo. I have the feeling that Jazz and Owl Gumbo might go together well, making the heart feel happy.

You're right, Hats! Can you just see Audubon dancing around now!! Sounds like he loved to dance. I thought it was so fun to read about him giving dancing lessons, along side of a bunch of other lessons, and accompanying himself on the violin while he was trying to get the class to follow the steps!

I just thought about him dancing with Lucy. Sounds like the both of them really enjoyed having fun - dancing, singing, playing music, and even swimming together. For some reason I can't picture women swimming back in that era. I wonder what they wore swimming then.

I do love Gumbo, but the owl Owl version somehow seems just a little too far out. In the 80’s when I went to New Orleans every year Gumbo along with the races, the Jazz and etc were the attractions. Sometimes I would rent a car and drive through the Cajun country down the delta stopping at each little Cajun joint for a bowl. Today in San Antonio good gumbo is hard to come by. All the local chefs can’t seem to understand that they are not cooking chili, The result is often disaster.

Recently I have found a fairly adequate frozen source from Richards Cajun Foods Corp, Church Point LA www.RichardsCajunFoods.com This product has an authentic Cajun taste with adequate quantities of shrimp crawdads and crab. There is, however, no okra, which seems strange to me. The only place that I find it here is (of all places) one particular Super Wallmart. So there is something good about Wallmart after all. I expected it would come unavailable after the storms, but that has not been the case. Either they had a large frozen pre-storm inventory or they have another producer making it.

Regarding dancing I suppose Audubon taught the Waltz and possibly other semi modern forms of couple-contact dances as well as the older square form dancing

Walmart gumbo??!!! I wonder if Walmart sells it only in certain sections of the country?

Harold: What makes gumbo gumbo, anyway? Sounds like you love it.

I found some interesting info about dancing in the 19th century. I think it would be the "Regency Period" of dance that the Audubons would be dancing at this point in the book.

Dance in the Regency era: "Regency dance is the term for historical dances of the period ranging roughly from 1790 to 1825. The term is popular but is actually a misnomer, as the actual English Regency (the future George IV ruling on behalf of mad King George III) lasted from 1810 until 1820. Nevertheless, there are consistencies of style over this period which make having a single term useful.

Most popular exposure to this era of dance comes in the works of Jane Austen. Balls occur in her novels and are discussed in her letters, but specifics are few. Films made based on her works tend to incorporate modern revival English Country Dance; however, they rarely incorporate dances actually of the period and do them without the appropriate footwork and social style which make them accurate to the period. Dances of this era were lively and bouncy, not the smooth and stately style seen in films. Steps ranging from simple skipping to elaborate ballet-style movements were used.

In the early part of this period, up to the early 1810's, the ballroom was dominated by the country dance, the cotillion, and the scotch reel.

In the longways Country Dance, a line of couples perform figures with each other, progressing up and down the line. Regency country dances were often proceeded by a brief March by the couples, then begun by the top lady in the set and her partner, who would dance down the set to the bottom. Each couple in turn as they reached the top would likewise dance down until the entire set had returned to its original positions. This could be a lengthy process, easily taking an hour in a long set. An important social element was the calling of the dance by the leading lady (a position of honor), who would determine the figures, steps, and music to be danced. The rest of the set would listen to the calling dancing master or pick up the dance by observing the leading couple. Austen mentions in her letters instances in which she and her partner called the dance.

The cotillion was a French import, performed in a square using more elaborate footwork. It consisted of a "chorus" figure unique to each dance which was danced alternately with a standard series of up to ten "changes", which were simple figures such as a right hand moulinet (star) common to cotillions in general.

The scotch reel of the era consisted of alternate heying (interlacing) and setting (fancy steps danced in place) by a line of three or four dancers. More complex reels appear in manuals as well but it's unclear if they ever actually caught on. A sixsome reel is mentioned in a description of Scottish customs in the early 1820's and eightsome reels (danced in squares like cotillions) occur in some dance manuscripts of the era.

In the 1810's, the era of the Regency proper, English dance began an important transition with the introduction of the quadrille and the waltz.

The Waltz was first imported to England around 1810, but was not considered socially acceptable until continental visitors at the post-Napoleonic-Wars celebrations danced it in London - and even then it remained the subject of anti-waltz diatribes, caricatures, and jokes. Even the decadent Lord Byron was scandalized by the prospect of people "embracing" on the dance floor. The Regency version is relatively slow, and done up on the balls of the feet with the arms in a variety of graceful positions. The Sauteuse is a leaping waltz commonly done in 2/4 rather than 3/4 time, similar in pattern (leap-glide-close) to the Redowa and Waltz Galop of the later nineteenth century.

First imported from France by Lady Jersey in 1815, the Quadrille was a shorter version of the earlier cotillions. Figures from individual cotillions were assembled into sets of five or six figures, and the changes were left out, producing much shorter dances. By the late 1810's, it was not uncommon to dance a series of quadrilles during the evening, generally consisting of the same first three figures combined with a variety of different fourth and fifth figures. Jane Austen's niece Fanny danced quadrilles and in their correspondence Jane mentions that she finds them much inferior to the cotillions of her own youth.

By the late 1810's, under siege from the Quadrille, dancing masters began to invent "new" forms of country dance, often with figures borrowed from the Quadrille, and giving them exotic names such as the Danse Ecossoise and Danse Espagnuole which suggested entire new dances but actually covered very minor variations in the classic form. A few of these dances became sufficiently popular that they survived through the entire 19th century. One example of this is the "Spanish dance" popular in vintage dance circles, which is a solitary survivor of its entire genre of Regency-era dances.

Some other dances of the era: La Boulangere, the only dance mentioned by name in Jane Austen's writings, is a simple circle dance for a group of couples. Sir Roger de Coverly, mentioned by Charles Dickens, is the ancestor of America's Virginia Reel.

Numerous instruction manuals survive from the Regency era. Several by Thomas Wilson are in the US Library of Congress online collection. The Scotch Reel is described by Francis Peacock, whose manual is also available in the LC collection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regency_dance

Marni

"Did you know that the waltz was the original forbidden dance?...Many people consider tango to be the world's first "forbidden dance." This is not so. The first dance to earn this distinction was the waltz, due to its nature and origins.

Waltz comes from the German word "waltzen," which means "to turn." The turn is the essence of the waltz step. The waltz is done in 3/4 time with an accent on the first beat of every measure. Each series of movements is a turning step and a close. Today, it is often danced on a light foot, although this was not always the case.

Precursors to the waltz were the allemande and the minuet. The allemande was a stately dance done in two lines. Partners faced each other and moved back and forth, sometimes going under the arms of the other line, or processing down the middle. The minuet was a square-step dance performed in a rigid and stately manner. The waltz itself is Viennese, and it evolved in Austria and Bavaria under such names as the Dreher, the laendler and the Deutscher. It was created as a peasant dance in early Austria, and involved robust moves and lots of space. Often, partners were hurled into the air in moves that occasionally led to injury and miscarriage. Because peasants wore loud, thick shoes, it was also very noisy. When it first became popular in Viennese dance halls in late eighteenth century, these aspects began to change.

The waltz was termed the "forbidden dance" for one reason. When it moved into Viennese dance halls, partners were allowed to touch! This was unheard of, and led to the dance being slandered by many officials of the church and leaders of the Austrian community. Because it was a favored dance of the young, however, it continued to be danced. Because of its transition to dance halls and city gathering, it evolved into a light dance for polished floors and parties. Its music also changed, becoming more refined and orchestrated. Notable instruments used to play it were the piano, the violin and the bass. In 1787, it was brought to the operatic stage, inviting huge debate. Mozart was a huge fan of the waltz, and in one of his operas, Don Giovanni, three waltzes are played at once in one scene! Clearly, the dance could not be stopped.

By the 1800's, Paris had fallen in love with the waltz. It did not arrive in England until later, where it was first denounced, and then accepted. A final public acceptance of it in 1819 allowed the waltz to reach the popularity that it still has today.

Today, the waltz is danced in all corners of the world. Its predecessors have mostly died away, but in their place the waltz is acclaimed in Asia, Australia, America, Canada and South America as a favorite dance. Its label as the "forbidden dance" has been taken instead by the tango, a dance that arose from the slums of Argentina."

http://ia.essortment.com/historyofthew_rklu.htm

I would love to teach an Amer History course based on music, but i haven't had the time to do all the research, so i throw in a little in both US History 101 and 102 as i learn about it.

What i remember reading about the beginnings of jazz was that there were some Black military bands in the Civil War and they were able to bring there horns and drums home w/ them after the war. Pairing those instruments w/ homemade ones, like the drums, banjo and guitar, they began to play very basic music that we might recognize today as NO's jazz. The music was very much influenced by African-American improvised blues and work songs, Carribean music, and the protestant hymns coming out of the Second Great Awakening. The first places that many of them could get paid to play were houses of prostitution and altho there are many theories of where the word jazz comes from, one of them is that it meant "having sex." So for both of those reasons "jazz" was looked down upon by "proper" people and stayed in the red-light districts and honky-tonk "clubs" for a long time.

It is now considered to be America's classical music, the one music that was strictly developed in the U.S. Some people say country and western is also classical Am'n music, but it has a tune-line and lyric stories very similar to English/Irish/Scotch-Irish ballads and came out of the Appalachians and mid-west where the Scoth-Irish settled in large numbers.

So there certainly was no "jazz" in NO while the A's were there. Too bad, you're all right that i think JJA would have loved it.

Did anyone else assume that Constantine Samuel Rafinesque, may have been gay? Not that it matters (a la Seinfield) but it's interesting that JJA and Rhodes go to great lengths to describe him and his clothing.

On the map on page 170 there is a great loop to the north in the MIss. River. Does anyone know if it is still there or did the corps of engineers take that out as they tried to control flooding. It seems like a perfect flood zone and it seems like an easy fix at the southern point where they could perhaps divert the water to cut out the loop. I remember about 10 yrs ago when there was a big flood on the Miss there was a woman who was being flooded out for the fourth time. She lived in a little "s" section of the river. The U.S. gov't had already, twice, rebuilt for her a very nice house. They wanted her to move and she was refusing saying this is my home and i'm not moving. My tho't was "well then pay for your own rebuilding from now on."

Did you love the "maggots" story on pg 183?......jean

What interesting posts!! I always thought it was the okra that made gumbo gumbo. I guess not, if we can have "okraless gumbo". Since I don't like okra, I always avoided gumbo. I'll have to rethink that.

The dance information is fascinating. I've always loved the wonderful dance scene in the BBC version of "Pride and Prejudice". But from what you say, it may not be authentic? I'll have to look at it more closely.

Completely off topic -- the new movie version of "Pride and Prejudice just came out. Our local paper's reviewer said he'd been asked if it was as good as the BBC version, and said he didn't know -- in effect he had better things to do than spend 5 hours watching some ponced up English (or something to that effect). GRRRRRRRRRRRR! So why did they give the review to this idiot?

Jean: That is so interesting about the history of jazz. It really is a very important topic in American history, growing out of the African American experience, their African musical heritage combined with Christian gospel music and other influences. The Blues grew out of their experience. I had been thinking that jazz grew out of the Blues, but I'm not sure; maybe they were parallel developments. Jazz seems more sophisticated and complex than the Blues. The melding of music from different cultures in America is a fascinating subject.

I read somewhere that slaves in America were not allowed to play drums, that they could be killed for playing drums because it was believed they sent messages to each other via drum beats as they did in Africa.

Ken Burns directed a wonderful documentary on the Blues and Clint Eastwood, a jazz pianist as well as actor and director, directed a wonderful documentary on jazz. Both docs were on PBS. Have you seen them?

I'd like to sign up for your course American History course based on jazz!!

JoanK: I read several review of the new Pride and Prejudice. Every one I've read has have given the film rave reviews. However, every critic thought that the Colin Firth version on TV was better.

I'm going to see it after Thanksgiving. My husband is not interested - calls it a "chick flick" so I'm going with a friend. That is one of my favorite books. I've read it a number of times and have seen movie versions a jillion times. I'll never get sick ot it!

Tonight I saw the new Harry Potter movie. I'm a great fan - have read all the books and seen and bought all the movies. The new movie is excellent!!!! Ralph Fienes is Valdemort, so you can imagine. What a cast!

I had to pass this on. I just got my first Lewis and Clark nickel. It has a revised face of Jefferson and 2005 on one side. On the other is a picture of pine trees at the edge of the Pacific and it says, "Ocean in view! O! the joy." Words around the edge include "Lewis and Clark 1805."

Two November editions of Smithsonian Magazine arrived this month. One is a special anniversary edition. It continues the series of Lewis and Clark expedition journal entries which have been ongoing for some time. This special edition includes Clark's entry for Nov. 7, 1805: "Great joy in camp we are in View of the Ocian, this great Pacific Octean which we been So long anxious to See. and the roreing or noise made by the waves breakeing on the rockey Shores (as I Suppose) may be heard distictly. Ocian in View! O! the joy."

"Ocian" is spelled "Ocean" on the new nickel.

I have enjoyed all the posts too. Marni, it is very interesting to know that at one time the Waltz was labeled the "forbidden dance." How times do change!

Marni, I would love to see that new nickel. Thank you for describing it.

Mabel, your post about Jazz is really interesting too. I had no idea that Jazz had come out of The Civil War or had anything to do with hymns and The Great Awakening. I can see "women of the night" enjoying a little Jazz music. I like Carribean music too .

I like the Blues too. The Blues captures feelings of pain and sorrow. It is a good way to release all the emotional pain that one person can experience.

It is too bad that the Jazz and the Blues had not become known yet in NO. I am sure JA might have enjoyed those sounds. Anyway, with whatever music, at least he knew how to enjoy himself. While reading a biograpy sometimes I can begin to dislike a person. I really like Audubon. His love of birds seems to camouflage his flaws.

Doris Kearns Goodwin the biographer and historian said that when she is writing a biography, she always hopes she will like the person she is researching and writing about because she will have to stay with that person for a long time.

Harold, as we were writing about Owl Gumbo and Jazz, especially the Jazz I remembered your beautiful dog Jazz, such a beauty.

Regarding the post yesterday relative to Swiming costume for mixed swims. In the early 19th century, I wonder if a special costume had yet been developed, yet I can't see women swiming in regular 19th century street dress. Even for the men and particularly women their regular street dress would seem impossible. By the late 19th century special outfits were available. Click Here for a 1913 example.

How awful!!!

Audubon had the ability to stick with his goal of making the book "Birds of America." Then, taking his work overseas. At times I would have given up. Some people were very outspoken about disliking his work, finding something to criticize in his work.

It is also interesting that painting with oils was not that easy. Audubon, I think, seemed more comfortable with pastels.

I never knew about his tutoring of others in so many different areas: dancing, drawing, etc.

What awful "swim suits". Can you imagine trying to swim with all that cloth around your legs?

I remember reading about "bathing machines", little rooms on wheels. The women would get into them and be wheeled out into the ocean. That way no one would see them in their "bathing dresses". Take a look:

BATHING MACHINES

This is much later than Audubon, and anyway, I can't see pioneer women with this.

That is sooo funny!! I can't believe it! A bathing machine, unbelievable.

These bathing suit pictures are so hysterical! Hahaha!! That's exactly what I was thinking about when I wondered what the Audubons were wearing when they swam together - and teaching people to swim. It sounds like both Audubon and Lucy could swim like fish.

And the bathing machines!! Can you imagine??!! No lights or windows in them. All the clothes they had to take off and put back on. I loved reading in JoanK's link that someone wondered why they didn't put skylights in them, at least. Probably some naughty little boys would climb up and peek down.

I remember reading about the bathing machines in a Henry James novel. No wonder the French decided to start sunbathing in the nude at the Riviera!!

I was also wondering about the Audubons swimming because so many people in that era didn't swim at all, never learned and didn't want to learn. Most sailors didn't know how to swim at that time. Many drowned when they fell from the rigging which apparently happened quite often. I think I read that sailors thought it was bad luck to learn how to swim.

Marni

I was just browsing through a cookbook I've had for years - "The Old Farmer's Almanac Colonial Cookbook." It has recipes used by Americans in New England and the Virginia tidewater areas. They are taken from old "Farmer's Almanac's" which began production in 1792 (actually after colonial times).

Here's their Thanksgiving Dinner menu. Perhaps people living in Pennsylvania and Kentucky had Thanksgiving dinners like this, as well. (The people in the picture next to the menu are dressed in clothes and hairstyles that look like people in Pride and Prujudice.)

Thanksgiving Dinner

Roast Turkey, stuffed

A Pair of Chickens stuffed and boiled with cabbage and a piece of lean pork

A Chicken Pie

Potatoes; turnip sauce; squash; onions, gravy and gravy sauce; apple and cranberry sauce; oyster sauce; brown and white bread;

Plum and Plain Pudding, with sweet sauce; Mince, Pumpkin, and Apple Pies

Cheese

---------------------------------

Thanksgiving hasn't changed all that much!

I wonder what the did in New Orleans? I wonder if they celebrated Thanksgiving? Maybe they included gumbo on the menu!!

Marni

I think a the key point in Audubon’s life came in the March 1824 meeting of the Philadelphia Academy of Natural science when Audubon showed his birds with the intent of engaging an engraver for publication there. At that meeting his principal supporter was Charles Lucian Bonaparte; his principal antagonist was a Vice President of the organization, George Ord. Ord had been associated with the publication of the works of Alexander Wilson and in fact had edited Wilson’s published works and served as his executor.

At this meeting Bonaparte introduced Audubon and praised his paintings. Ord, a man known for his rudeness after examining the pictures judged Audubon’s pictures inferior. In particular he objected to showing of birds with plants. Though there were others at the meeting who voiced support of Audubon, Ord, in Rhodes words, “marked him (Audubon) down for destruction , first of all blocking his election to the academy.”

After this meeting Bonaparte began to think of partnering with Audubon to publish jointly. A few weeks later he took Audubon to meet Alexander Lawson, the engraver who had engraved the Wilson pictures and was then engraving pictures for a proposed Bonaparte publication. Despite the Prince’s strong support, Lawson declined to have anything to do with them claiming the paintings were too soft, too much like oil paintings for the making of suitable engravings.

The next move brought in another Philadelphia engraver, Gideon Fairman. He did not agree with the Lawson judgment that the pictures were unacceptable for engraving, but suggested that for superior work Audubon should take them to England for engraving and publication. This apparently was the first though in Audubon’s mind of the possibility of this option. Apparently Bonaparte too saw the value of this foreign option and soon he too was advising Europe, only recommending Paris rather than England. In any case when Audubon left Philadelphia in August 1824, he had made his decision; he would take his pictures to Europe for publication. Though the destination England or Paris was not yet firm, all that remained to be done was he had to finish the collection, he had to raise the necessary money, and he had to see Lucy again.

Here is another close call for JJ or his assistant Joseph Mason or both of them. This is the situation described on page 212 involving a picture of a bird harassing a snake. Audubon is said to have written that he expected the snake was quite harmless, but in this expectation he was very wrong. The snake in the picture is a Coral snake, a most venomous American relative of the Cobra. Either Audubon or mason or both were very lucky to have survived.

Another introduction coming out of JJ’s 1824 sojourn in Philadelphia was Gideon Harris’s introducing him to Edward Harris. Harris was a wealthy gentleman farmer from New Jersey. The introduction resulted in a lifetime friendship that cumulated in the 1843 birding trip up the Missouri River to Fort Union at the Mouth of the Yellowstone

Yes, the rudeness that JJ encountered seemed very harsh. "This leg does not join the body as in nature. This bill is, in the crow, straight, sharp, wedge-like. You have made it crooked and waving." Seriously, as a woman I would have cried. As a man, I would have punched him in the nose.

I suppose an artist does hear a wide range of opinions. Those who like the work and those who find something to reject. The artist's life has never been described as easy. His own inner voice can also become his worse enemy. "While work flowed upon me, the hopes of my completing my book upon the birds of America became less clear; and full of despair, I feared my hopes of becoming known to Europe as a naturalist were destined to be blasted."

I did enjoy reading about Audubon's relationship with Bonaparte. It brought me back to the fact that Audubon had a life in France. I can't find the name of Bonaparte's home outside of Phila. now. Is it Point something or other? I never have given a thought to Bonaparte's offspring. After Napoleon's stay on the island of Elba, I lost any thoughts of that particular "clan."

I thought the story about the snake very interesting too. It just proves a naturalist's life is not without its hazards while walking through the wilds of the woods.

I have never heard of an Anhinga. I see his picture on page 206.

I think that in order for us to understand Audubon's treatment in Philadelphia, we must not forget the importance of the "self interest" of the individual actors involved. This is particularly true of George Ord. He was Alexander Wilson’s Executor and as an editor of Wilson’s works he had a financial interest to be lost should Audubon’s work supercede Wilson’s. His attitude toward Audubon was simply that of an incumbent defending his turf against an up-start stranger.

Though there were those in the learned Philadelphia Academy of Natural Society including Bonaparte and others who supported Audubon, it appears that the majority were sufficient indebted to Ord to support him and deny Audubon Academy membership and local publication of his work. Actually I suppose the case can be made that Ord did Audubon a favor in denying him local publication. By forcing him to go to Europe Audubon was able to establish an international reputation that would have been difficult to replicate if the publication had been local.

Note also that we must give Lucian Bonaparte credit for his enlightened support of science despite his own self-interest. He too was engaged in bird related natural scientific studies and his own related publication that would be made obsolete by the publication of Audubon’s work.

Incidentally the Bonapart estate 25 miles North of Philadelphia was named “Point Breeze.” Actually it was the Property of Lucian’s Uncle and father-in-law Joseph Bonaparte, the ex-King of Spain.

George Rod's influence on the Academy of Natural Science shows us how political the organization was. More than talent was required to become a member.

Audubon was advised to go to England for the engraving of his book because they apparently could do superior work than engravers in America and because Audubon's birds were too large in size for Philadelphia engravers to handle.

Audubon had prepared himself well to create his masterpiece. We have read in this section how he improved his artwork. He learned to use more mature techniques. He learned to paint in oils from Thomas Cole. He taught himself to mix media for better effect. Although Audubon still drew his birds mainly with pastels, he also mixed pastels with watercolor and pencil. He applied an underpainting of multiple coats of watercolor before applying the pastels and used gouache and a varied use of the pencil.

As a result of his greatly improved style, Audubon was unhappy with his earlier works. During 1821 and 1822 he had to redraw his earlier bird drawings to create what would become his book, his dream. He had set an aggressive schedule for himself to complete the re-drawings and had re-drawn one bird daily.

Audubon was now approaching his full maturity as an artist. “No one has ever drawn birds better.” Modern critic, Theodore E. Stebbins, Jr., said: “...No one in America equaled him for graphic inventiveness until Winslow Homer some sixty years later....” “He meant to make art” not just scientific illustration.

Despite the criticism Audubon received from the likes of George Ord, he collected a large number of letters of recommendation and introduction from persons of note, including artist John Vanderlyn, the Governor of the Louisiana Territory, and Charles Lucien Bonaparte. Gentleman farmer Edward Harris bought a number of Audubon's paintings and gave him money for his trip abroad.

Click here to see some John Vanderlyn paintings:

http://www.sunyniagara.cc.ny.us/homepags/Knechtel/vanderlyn.html

Here is a brief sketch of Charles Lucien Bonaparte:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Lucien_Bonaparte

Brief bio of Thomas Cole: http://www.thomascole.org/

Marni

I was critical of JJA seeming to do and travel as he wanted without much thought about his family, but now i am remembering that this was true for many "artists" and may be necessary in order to perfect and promote their work. Michaelangelo, Van Gogh, etc. I suppose to become a world reknown artist/musician/whatever you need to be very focused.

It reminds me of Alice Paul. I am a founding board member of the Alice Paul Institute which has bought and restored Alice Paul's homestead and perpetuates women's history and especially Alice's history. She was the Martin Luther King of the women's suffrage movement, in case you haven't heard of her. She has a quote that we use frequently when talking about her life "when you put your hand on the plow, you don't take it off until you get to the end of the row."

That can be said of almost any person in history who we think of as having a "cause," and JJA certainly had a cause.

For all of you who like jazz, check out www.kplu.org. It is the public broadcasting station at Pacific Lutheran Univ in Washington state. They stream very good listening jazz 24 hrs a day - it's not "smooth" jazz a la Kenny G, or progressive jazz, something you can't hear a tune in, it's just nice traditional listening jazz. On Sat and Sun nights from 7 til midnight PT, 10 - 3 EST, they play blues, so Hats, if you like blues and jazz i think you would enjoy it. I put it on and do other work - or read my SeniorNEt sites

Another great music spot is www.accuradio.com where they have hundreds of "channels" of all genres of music and you can pick what you are in the mood for for free. I like "holiday" music and started in October listening to that channel where there is a "subchannel" of "HOliday Jazz."

And one more is www.yahoo.com and then click on "music" and you can pick your artist, song, album or genre and begin to build your "own radio station." As you listen and rate what they play the computer gives you more of what you like. All three of these are free and very good. As you can probably tell, I love music......jean

Jean: Thank you so much for the music locations. It's great to be able to select the kind of music you like.

I live just north of Hartford, CT. Hartford is really into jazz. Every year there is a free 3-day jazz festival around the 4th of July on the huge lawn of Bushnell Park in front of the state capitol building. Wonderful and famous jazz musicians come from all over the world and we hear them free. It's fabulous. Then in October, Hartford has the 3-day international jazz festival. We're lucky to have these wonderful events.

Marni

I had to look up gouache, the technique that Audubon began to use. Here's some info:

http://artcafe.net/studio/sharon/gouache.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouache

Gouache paintings by Thomas Paquette for another example:

http://www.thomaspaquette.com/gouache.html

I have gained interesting information from all of the posts:Harold's post, Marni's post and Mabel's post. I will try those music stations, Mabel. I have a selective ear, nothing to noisy and loud .

It was evident in this section that the Audubons were experiencing strained relations because of finances, being apart, and perhaps worry over fidelity. Audubon grieves that Lucy has to work. Lucy is not at all happy that they have no money and she has to support the family with husband gone most of the time. They have had to live on the charity of friends which must have been extremely humiliating. Their letters reveal the rift. At one point Lucy doesn't want Audubon to come back to them and Audubon threatens to leave her.

If Audubon goes alone to Europe to publish his book, which will be a long process, the situation could get worse.

I can’t pass the opportunity to link another streaming FM Station. This is the Austin TX NPR station, KUT. Traditionally they have done much of their own programming rather than the 24/7 NPR fare.

True they are now doing more NPR and less their own but they still have a morning music/talk show called Eklecticos beginning at 9:00AM week day mornings and Folk on Saturday mornings and blues,jazz, Austin soft Rock after 8:00 pm in the evenings. Their NPR programs are aired in the early morning and afternoon until 8:00 PM. Thereafter its music until dawn.

Click Here and then double click on the Window’s Media or Real Audio options to listen. I generally use Windows Media that comes in uninterrupted through my sbc-yahoo DSL connection. With my sound blaster audio card and the five-speaker surround sound, listening is a real sound experience.

I'll try that station. I assume your times are CST?

I was always in awe of John and Abigail Adams being able to have been apart so much and still stay so intimate w/ each other. I read one time that of the first 20 years of the marriage, John had been away from home a cumulation of 14 yrs. When i worked at FT Dix i talked to a number of men and women who were either away or their spouses were away - an assignment to Korea was for 13 months and families were not allowed to accompany the service member - and the readjustments when the military person, particulary a man, came back home were very difficult. Being apart was hard, but then adjusting to two people, instead of one, making decisions again was tough. If it was the husband who had been deployed, as it usually was, the wife had been making all the decisions for the family for a year, she wasn't always happy to be questioned, or to be submissive to the husband's decisions after he came back. Infidelity was expected by many. There was a joke that the guys would mention that when you hit SAn Francisco, you called home and let her know you are "in the country" - which meant "let him (the other guy) know i'm coming home.)" Neither party ever wanted to know FOR SURE that their partner had had a relationship w/ someone else, but many tho't it had probably happened....

All of this is relating to the Audubon's separations.

You are right Jean In comparison to some of his near contemporaries JJ and Lucy were not separated so much. Your citation of John and Abigail Adams is a good one. Another good example would be the Benjamin Franklins. Ben spent years living In England and France. If I remember correctly, his wife died while he was in Europe. In comparison the Audubon’s long separation does not sound so unusual

My computer is acting strange this evening. Somehow I have lost all my cookies for saved pass words. I'm not sure what is going on, but I am doing an entire disk virus scan that is in progress. What sort of wories me is that I get conflicting information on the status of my firewall and virus protection.

A sound blaster audio card and five-speaker surround sound??!! Woah!! Harold, you rock!!

The John Adams family and the Ben Franklins handled the separations very stoically - but very differently.

John and Abigail sounded so much in love through their entire marriage. I can't say the same for the Franklins. If I recall correctly, Ben felt obligated to ask Deborah to marry him. (He had asked for her hand before heading to Europe and her mother said they should wait. Deborah married another when Ben was gone; but her husband skipped. Ben had an affair with another woman who had his illegitimate child, William. No one would marry Deborah after her husband took off forever - married but not married; so Ben felt he owed her, from what I read.) I'm not sure Ben loved her anymore. He certainly loved the living and the ladies in England and in Paris away from home. He was gone from his wife in England alone for 10 years. His wife said she didn't want to sail across the ocean. Who knows, maybe she just liked having him gone.

Both the Adamses and the Franklins had some money, were more financially stable than the Audubons. I feel the Audubons' tale is another - a story of love and separation, of misunderstandings and misinterpretations through letters, of reunions and renewed love. Their love story is quite remarkable.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING, EVERYONE!!!

Marni

What a beautiful Horn of Plenty!!

MARNI: how beautiful!! May you have that plenty in your life.

and the History Channel is doing a "Frontier" series until 7:00, right now they are talking about "Roger's Rangers." It may give us a look at what JJA and Lucy were seeing around them. Also tonight they are doing a series on "Presidents" from 8:00 to 11:00 EST and repeating at 1:00. They are starting from Washington and going thru LIncoln.

At 7:00 EST they are doing a history of thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving everybody, don't eat ttoooooooooooooo much....jean

Jean: I caught the last third of the Mad Anthony Wayne segment about revenge on the indians in Ohio/Indiana. Wish I had seen the whole thing. I was tearing back and forth from the kitchen, making sweet potato pies for the first time. They look pretty good! Yesterday I made some pecan pies. Then I made Indian pudding for the first time using the recipe from The Bee and Thistle Inn in Old Lyme, CT. It could use a bit more molasses next time, I think.

Thanks for the info. Hope I can catch several of the programs tonight! Some of the history of the "old frontier" fits right into our discussion.

Marni, I certainly agree with your summary of the different approach to the geographical separation of the John Adams and Ben Franklin families. Ben as I remember never showed any particular concern, and he learned of his wife's death via mail from a daughter. Also Ben even in his old age in Paris was actively courting the ladies.

I suspect we are about to feel the affect of the holiday routine. Yesterday I was gone the entire day since seven of my group here at Chandler took a 220-mile day trip to a 19th century railroad town that has been renovated as a shopping center. There are some 200 shops in the old stores and houses selling a wide range of high fashion clothing, art galleries, and general arts and crafts stores plus many up-scale eating places. It was definitely a chick trip (shopping), but three of us men went along for the ride and the lunch.

Getting back to Audubon and our book we are now at the critical stage in our principal's life when things begin to happen and the many loose ends start to come together. Audubon again leaves hearth and home this time sailing on May 18, 1826 from New Orleans on the Delos, a cotton laden sailing ship, for Liverpool. Audubon after spending the first month in the doldrums of the Gulf regretted his decision to sail from New Orleans. It would have been better he rationally to have traveled up river to Pittsburgh, then by stage to New York City and embarked there.

During the full month that the Delos drifted in the Gulf currents JJ fished for dolphin and sharks shot seabirds and studied and disected both the fish and birds. He would write long letters to Lucy whenever a chance meeting with another ship heading for New Orleans made their dispatch possible. Once the Delos cleared the Florida keys into the Atlantic favorable winds began to move the ship at a faster pace. While at sea Audubon also made sketch drawings of Delos crew some of which are reproduced in our book.

Another Audubon past-time while at sea was alcoholic liquor. Rhodes says it was whiskey provided by fellow passenger John Swift and Irish –American returning to Ireland to visit his parents. In the 1826 journal Audubon himself often refers to the consumption of Porter (a strong form of beer). The editor of my “1826 Journal,” Alice Ford agrees with Rhodes comment that there are places in the Journal where alcohol rendered JJ’s handwriting completely illegible. On July 4th 1826 Audubon describe a possibly porter induced premonition of a great national calamity in America. Later after the Delos made port he found that both Thomas Jefferson and John Adams had died that day. The Delos finally docked at Liverpool July 21, 1826, a crossing that took over 2 months to complete.

hope everybody ate well and had good fun yesterday. Marni, those pies sound deluscious Harold, that sounds like an intersting little town.

Some tho'ts on JJA: Do any of you find it amazing how he has contact w/ so many "famous" people, considering he's not in finance, politics, or the military? He has some contact w/ A Jackson, H Clay,Bonapartes, governors, etc. For a person who is almost destitute much of his life, he has many acquaintances of esteem. Do you suppose it is because there were so many fewer people in the country, that it was easier to have connections who had connections, etc.

Rhodes says when JJA left for Europe that he and Lucy "knew they would not.....see each other for YEARS...." Do you think they knew at that point that they were not going to see each other for yrs, or is Rhodes inserting his knowledge from hindsight?

JJA is upset that his brother-in-law and others in London society snub him because of his poverty and appearance, but he doesn't seem to remedy his appearance very quickly, except to buy a VERY EXPENSIVE watch, and apparently never considers cutting his hair to fit in w/ the society he wished to accept him.

I found another distant connection for me in this book. I live in Moorestown, NJ and several years ago i got a book from the NJ archives room in our local library that was largely a diary of an early nineteenth century Moorestown farmer who lived around the corner from where i live now. His name was ED HARRIS! and i had forgotten that he had talked about JJA in his diary. I'll try to get the book from the library tomorrow and see what it was that he said.

Are all of you freezing as we are this "black Friday?" I'm sure you are Marni.....stay warm everybody.....jean

dying on the 50th anniversary of the Dec of Independence. I tease my students and tell them maybe they should believe in astrology, so many things in U.S. History have happened on a fourth of JUly, the three above, plus the battle of Gettysburg and the fall of Vicksburg are the most famous ones, but there are others that are not as important.....eerie, wh-h-o-o.......jean

I am having serious computer trouble. Among other things My Norton Internet Security Package has become corrupt to the extent that my anti virus protection is questionable and I can not access my secure sites. The answerer is to remove the Norton package and reinstall it. But the program don't recognize me as the administrator of this computer and says I don't have authority to remove it. Norton has an alternate method that so far I cant get to work but I am still trying.

Getting back to JJ in Liverpool, I think his introduction to English notables was through "Letters of Introduction" from American friends. Including Henry Clay and others. This type of introduction seems to have been popular during the 19th century, and it certainly worked very well for JJ. The new budding English intellectual class quickly accepted him. This would have been in the 19th century termed the "middle class." Above were the Royals and aristocrats; below were the urban working class including artesian, and working people of all descriptions as well a rural farmers and peasants.

I am surprised that Audubon's almost instant success, yet the fact is despite his shy past and substantial failure in Philadelphia, he was immediately accepted in Liverpool where his only material failure was a person who he had known in New Orleans and had since become his own brother-in-Law. (married to Lucy’s younger sister, Ann Bakewell).

What do you see as the reason for his quick success; was it his personality, his appearance, or just the excellece of his pictures and his knowledge of his subject? .

I hope everyone had a wonderful day yesterday! My pies were a success. The Indian pudding was delicious, but some relatives thought it looked like....well....dog do. Actually, it does. It is not attractive....Back to Audubon!!

That really was something - all the impressive and famous people Audubon was acquainted with. Some were friends. Many provided letters of introduction or letters of recommendation which helped him to make valuable contacts when he went abroad, or when he came back to America.

It seems that this period was one of great interest in nature. Think of Darwin, who quoted Audubon 3 times in Origin of the Species (1859) and quoted him in later publications. Audubon had become an expert in the field of American ornithology, and a number of scientists recognized it. Many other naturalists were roaming around collecting, speaking, writing, and they seemed to bump into each other here and there and introduce each other. Also, Audubon was a superb artist of birds and artists in the book seemed to gravitate towards each other, learning from each other, trading lessons, introducing each other to contacts. Audubon certainly took advantage of his contacts.

It was also a period when the British were very interested in the American Indian, partly because of the recent publication of Cooper's The Last of the Mohicans. Audubon capitalized on his "frontier" appearance in Britain in order to capture an audience. JJA deliberately dressed like a woodsman to enhance the aura. The British ate it up, particularly in Edinburgh and in London.

The long hair helped. But, this wasn't the real reason for the long hair, it seems. Audubon did not want to cut his hair. He had to be greatly pursuaded to cut his hair. And he generally wore it very long - shoulder length or longer. Men's hair in this period was fashionably short. Rhodes said at one point that Audubon said cutting hair reminded him of the Reign of Terror in France when those who were to be guillotined had their hair cut short first (I suppose so the blade went more easily through the neck to chop off the head.)

Every once in awhile, we see a glimpse of the horror that Audubon had lived through when he was young.

Here are some interesting sites about men's fashion between 1800 and 1830.

http://www.janeausten.co.uk/magazine/index.ihtml?id=27&step=2

http://www.songsmyth.com/menday.html

http://romancereaderatheart.com/victorian/timeline/mensfashion/

I couldn't resist. Here's a famous drawing of the beautiful Lord Byron - for a glimpse of his romantic hair style in about 1815.

http://englishhistory.net/byron/images.html

Here are several interesting sites about women's fashion between 1800 and 1830. The first takes a minute to open.

http://www.fashion-era.com/regency_fashion.htm

http://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/ppbrokil.html

Marni

Here is the print of Audubon originally published by Robert Havell (Audubon's printer) in 1835 to help promote sales of Audubon's book. It's very dark, but I couldn't find another. I don't remember seeing this in our book. Was it there?

http://www.minniesland.com/audubon_portrait.htm

Interesting portrait. He looks like an artist, with that sensative mouth.

I had no idea so many important events happened on July fourth. That is so interesting. This portrait makes JJA look far more handsome than the ones in the book. I remember he did a self portrait. It's in the book. I also think JJA kept his hair long for another reason. I think he was aware of his "looks." His long hair, he thought, attracted the ladies. That made me laugh.

"My locks flew freely from under my hat, and every lady that I met looked at them and then at me until--she could see no more."

I think Lucy needs to ship herself fast overseas and make JJA eat a little humble pie.

Harold, I might have missed that last station you posted. Thanks.

Is it also possible that JJA had a motive in mind for allowing himself to look different? If a person looks different, he is not easily forgotten.

Two of JJ’s principal Liverpool contacts were two Rathbone brothers, William Rathbone IV and Richard Rathbone. These brothers were the descendents of the family founder, William Rathbone I (1696 – 1746), who founded the family firm engaged in trading as owners of ships trading in the West Indies and North America.

William Rathbone II (1726 – 1789) had left the Church of England to become a Quaker and abolitionist. This was the families affiliation when Audubon visited them in 1826 though in 1829 William Rathbone was expelled from the Quakers for vociferousness (what ever is that?) after which he became Unitarian. The family Rathbone’s clearly were a part of the post Regency intellectual, Capitalist, middle class elite who later by act of Parliament peacefully abolished slavery throughout the British Empire and established their country as a World leader thorough the remainder of the 19th and early 20th century.

We see many strong Rathbone women including the Queen Bee. Hannah Mary (Reynolds) Rathbone, the widow of William Rathbone III. Also there was a young Hannah Mary Rathbone who seems to have particularly attracted JJ’s attention, including a fall 1826 travel through the lake district. This prompted Rhodes speculation of a possible affair. From my reading of the “1826 Journal,” I agree with Rhodes conclusion that such a relationship was unlikely.

One of the young children of Richard Rathbone was a yound boy named Basil Rathbone. I often wondered in this was the geneology of the late actor, Basil Rathbone. I understand he came to Hollywood via South Africa in the 1930’s. Though I found no proof his connection to the Liverpool family, I suppose it is possible.

I understand the the Rathbone House visited by JJ in 1826 then in the country near Liverpool, is now on the campus of the University of Liverpool

I named my first dog, a bassett hound, after Basil Rathbone. My dog's registered name was Sweet Basil Hath Bone. We called him Basil.

Marni

Hats: You're right about Audubon thinking of the ladies with his long hair! Yes, he liked the ladies' attention and he seemed very vain. He enjoyed being the center of attention, enjoyed being sought after and swooned over. I was looking at some paintings of him when he was older. His hair had receded just somewhat; it is cut shorter, but he has huge sideburns. He was lucky he kept his hair into old age. He didn't go bald. That would have been hard for him. He did, however, lose his teeth as you can tell from later pictures.

Lucy lost a number of her teeth when she was in her twenties. In her early 40's, she wrote that she had turned gray, had lost her teeth, and was very thin.

I wonder why she lost teeth so early?

Since we have all been so busy with Thanksgiving, Harold and I have decided to wait until Thursday, Dec. 1, to begin our Week 5 discussion. This will give us an extra 2 days to discuss the topics listed above in the heading, plus anything else you wish to discuss.

Marni

Marni,

That is a very young age for a woman to lose her teeth. If that happened to a girl in her twenties now, it would devastate her, I think.

I love bassett hounds. They are so cute.

It seems that JJA is becoming really a celebrity in England. He's meeting all these important people. I think JJA likened his arrival to England like the fantastic meeting Lafayette received here in the U.S.

After all JJA has been through as far as poverty, creditors, etc. I think he deserves this fame and glory. When men find their place in life and their ambition is recognized, their wives, sometimes, have a hard time dealing with their identity. I am thinking of Zelda Fitzgerald as an example. I think Zelda suffered many breakdowns just from living in F. Scott Fitzgerald's large shadow.

I wonder did Lucy Audubon experience these feelings. She too had lived through a lot of hard times: the death of two children and the continual distance from her husband. I would have suffered from severe loneliness. At least, Audubon could lose himself in his Ornithology and now the parties and social scene. I wonder what was Lucy's world like. Maybe further on in the book we will find out.

I know Lucy didn't suffer breakdowns. I just wondered did she find a particular talent and develop it. I think earlier we learned that she did some drawing too.

Oh, I hate to stop. The book is sooo good and interesting.

I found Hannah Marie Rathbone and JJA's friendship interesting. To me, it was clearly a pure friendship. What was his attraction to her? I might have to reread that part.

I think loss of teeth by the forties during the 19th century was quite common. They just didn't have access to the dental hygiene necessary to keep teeth through old age. Remember George Washington’s wooden teeth.?

I sure do remember learning about his wooden teeth. Yes, our dental practices are far more modern. In those times, I am not sure whether physicians specialize as they do now. Maybe the general practictioner worked also on oral dentistry. So, his knowledge would have been spare.

Not only did JJA meet the famous Rathbone family, he met William Roscoe. At one time Mr. Roscoe had been a successful banker. He did experience some business problems. The Rathbones came to his aid. Walter Irving, the famous author, mentioned Mr. Roscoe in his book, 'The Sketch-Book of Geoffrey Crayon, Gent., This book became published in 1819. Mr. Roscoe also corrected or "edited" works written by the poets Alexander Pope and Robert Burns. Mr. Roscoe also was the founder of Liverpool Botanical Gardens.

After looking at JJA's portfolio, Mr. Roscoe invited JJA to his home. Later, they went on a pony ride to see the Liverpool Botanical Gardens. It seems Mr.Roscoe had a fascination with American plants and other plants. I had a hard time picturing the pony trotting coach.

Hats: It was exciting reading about Audubon finally being recognized and lauded for his work. I was cheering him on.

I think it must have been hard for Lucy to understand that he really was being extremely honored in Britain and that he was earning money from his life's work. It sounded to me like Lucy thought Audubon was exaggerating his success in his letters and that she didn't really believe him. I think that was one of the reasons she didn't come over to Europe.

Their letters to each other certainly were peculiar at times - they led each other to misconstrue meanings. They vented their hurt feelings in their letters and almost reached the point where they considered total separation. The length of time it took their letters to reach each other must certainly have added to the misunderstandings and hurt. It took months for letters to travel from one to another, and their letters overlapped. I can hardly imagine how difficult it must have been to communicate like this for YEARS and remain happy.

Lucy, meanwhile, was earning her own living, supporting her sons, and even sending money to her husband. Her husband did not make it clear to Lucy that he could support her. In fact, he told her he could not support her in the way he thought she expected to live. Their communications really were confusing to each other. It was very sad to read them and to imagine what they were thinking.

Marni

Re: George Washington's teeth....

We all learned about Washington's wooden teeth. Recently, I read in several sources that his false teeth were not wooden at all. They were ivory. One pair is on view Mount Vernon. Apparently, they were extremely painful to him.

I was wondering if it were diet that caused people to lose teeth early.

Marni,

I didn't think of diet. That makes sense.

Here is a brief biographical sketch from Alice Ford the editor of my edition of the “1826 Journal” (P-58, Fn 6):

William Roscoe (1753 – 1831), English historian was the foremost Liverpool art patron. His “Life of Lorenzo de’ Medici" (1795) and his “Life and Pontificate of Leo the Tenth" (1805) became clasics. Besides being a writer and poet of note in his time, he was a politician, abolitionist, republican, attorney, agriculturist and finally a abanker whose failure in 1816 had brought the Rathbone circle to his aid. Roscoe is mentioned by De Quincey in his “Autobiographical-Sketches” and by Washington Irving in “The Sketch Book.”

Click Here for a Web Site with a portrait. A Google search on his name yields many hits. Likewise Google searches on either William Rathbone or Richard Rathbone yields many modern Web hits.

Audubon mentions Lafayette a number of times in America and abroad, admired him greatly as a fellow Frenchman and honorary American citizen. Audubon had a coat made in Britain tailored after Lafayette’s on his American tour. Lafayette toured every state in the U.S. when he was in his 60's. We read in this section that his steamboat between Nashville and Louisville sank. Benjamin Bakewell (Lucy’s uncle) had relatives aboard. All escaped harm. Here is info about Lafayette and his U.S. tour:

"The visit of Marie Joseph Paul Yves Roch Gilbert Motier, the Marquis de Lafayette, to the United States in 1824 and 1825 marked a high point of early American nationalism. Lafayette's triumphal tour of the United States signaled that memories of the Revolutionary War would continue to play a significant role in American culture. It also served as a high-water mark in the on-again, off-again love affair between the United States and France.

The Marquis de Lafayette was just a nineteen-year old wealthy nobleman when he came to the United States in 1777 to lend his support to the cause of American independence, but he soon was commissioned a major-general in the Continental Army and became an important member of George Washington's staff. Lafayette helped persuade the French government to recognize the United States and to send military aid, although he was not close to the commander of French forces in the United States, the Comte de Rochambeau. Lafayette's greatest military contribution came at the end of the war in Virginia, where he was instrumental in securing the American victory at Yorktown.

What Americans saw as Lafayette's support for moderate democracy during the French Revolution had only increased his popularity in the United States, and news of his every move during the French Revolution had filled U.S. newspapers. Early in 1824, President James Monroe invited the general to return to the United States for a visit to accept money and land-grants from Congress and praise from the American people. Lafayette saw the trip as not only financially a good move, but also a way to promote French ties with the American republic, and he gladly accepted the invitation. Lafayette took with him on the tour his son, George Washington Lafayette, a secretary named Auguste Levasseur, who wrote a French account of their journey, and, at various stages of the journey, a collection of other European friends including the Scottish writer and reformer Frances Wright. Congress instructed the American people that Lafayette, as the "nation's guest," should not be allowed to expend one cent of his own money during his trip, and people all over the United States prepared to greet one of their favorite Revolutionary heroes. [America owed Lafayette a great debt because Lafayette had spent much of his own money supplying his American troops during the Revolution.]

Lafayette's visit to the United States in 1824 came at an important time for the nation to reconfirm its allegiance to the ideas of the American Revolution and the memory of the Revolutionary War. The Revolutionary generation was dying off, and the country was moving in a more modern direction in the nineteenth century. Amidst all the changes, however, most Americans felt it was necessary and positive to remind themselves of the country's glorious military past and to express a continued belief in republican and democratic ideals. When Lafayette arrived in New York City August 15, 1824, he provided the greatest possible living reminder of America's Revolutionary past. Lafayette seemed to be the perfect inspiration for Americans to celebrate their past, their "pure" politics of liberty, and their ideals of progress.

During his visit to the United States, Lafayette visited all twenty-four states, and at every stop along the way, he faced an outpouring of thankfulness from the American people that took the form of ceremonies, balls, parades, fireworks, and any other form of celebration they could think of. The general attended a huge two-day commemoration of the Battle of Yorktown, during which he received visitors directly on the battlefield. He was present in Washington D.C. as the contested presidential election of 1824 was decided by Congress, and some observers credited his presence for helping to divert public attention from the crisis and for calming the situation. Lafayette visited former presidents James Madison and Thomas Jefferson, and he made a gut-wrenching pilgrimage to George Washington's grave. [Washington had been like a father to Lafayette, whose father had been killed when he was very young.] In June 1825, Lafayette laid the cornerstone of the Bunker Hill Monument in Charlestown, Massachusetts, the most important of the countless libraries, memorials, and other public buildings he dedicated on his journey. At every turn, Lafayette stopped to speak with visitors (including slaves, which embarrassed his Southern hosts), and the public took particular notice of his affection for Revolutionary veterans everywhere.

Lafayette's visit built up a sense of American nationalism, not only by reminding the people who turned out to greet him around the country of the Revolutionary past, but also because the American press followed his every move. Newspapers reported every day on Lafayette's movements, his speeches, his clothing, and how many grateful viewers turned out to laud him. The publicity helped to link disparate parts of the nation together in the mutual admiration for Lafayette. In addition, a huge number of souvenirs (sheet music, cleaning brushes, china, and glass bottles), many bearing images of Lafayette, allowed Americans to express their patriotism through commercial activity. When Lafayette departed for France in September 1825, the American people would long remember not only him, but also the excitement of his visit."

http://www.bookrags.com/history/americanhistory/lafayettes-tour-aaw-01/

The following info moved me very much when I read about it: When Lafayette visited Bunker Hill on his tour, he took away with him a small amount of dirt from the site as a memento to bring home. He wanted it to be buried with him so that he could be buried in American soil. At Lafayette's funeral in France, the American soil was placed in his grave and buried with him.

Here is a portrait of young Lafayette: http://www.cr.nps.gov/museum/exhibits/revwar/image_gal/indeimg/lafayette.html

Marni

I chuckled when I read that at dinners in Liverpool Audubon was asked to make American noises such as Indian war cries and bird calls. People in Britain loved his work, but they also loved the image of America that he projected. Audubon was amazed to find out how little the British knew about America.

----------------------------

Audubon began taking snuff when he went abroad. It became a bad habit that he tried a number of times to stop.

About snuff: http://www.boxantiques.co.uk/snuff_taking.htm

Audubon used his newly acquired snuff habit as an icebreaker on his mid Oct. 1826 stage journey from Manchester to Edinburgh. He offered his traveling companion a pinch of his #37 (whatever that was). The stranger accepted and conversation followed. It was on this occasion that a terrible stench enveloped the stage centered on the baggage strapped to the top. The attendant accused JJ of carrying a dead body in his luggage to Edinburgh apparently for scientific dissection and study. The timely discovery of the true cause of the stench, the soiled trousers of another passenger, got A off the hook.

I wonder how many years after 1826 were required before the journey from Manchester to Edinburgh could have been made by steam powered railroads. This time line indicates by 1829 Liverpool and Manchester were connected; it is not clear when Manchester and Edinburgh were connected, but it indicates that by 1852 most major British cities were connected. Click Here for a British Railroad Time Line.

Interesting that you mention the accusation of JJA carrying a dead body in his luggage to Edinburgh for scientific dissection and study.

We also heard in this section of the book that within the year the infamous William Burke and William Hare would begin murdering people to sell their bodies for dissection. Dr. Robert Knox had willingly bought most of Burke and Hare’s victims for dissection. Audubon visited Robert Knox in Edinburgh. It was Robert Knox who nominated Audubon as honorary member of the Wernerian Society where JJA gave a speech on the habits of the turkey buzzard and alligators and he demonstrated his mounting system.

Here's more info about the infamous Burke/Hare case.

http://members.fortunecity.com/gillonj/burkeandhare/

About Robert Knox: "In 1791, the year in which Mozart died, there was born in Edinburgh a man who had some of the attributes of genius and whose name, but for a trivial mischance, might today occupy a distinguished place in the illustrious history of the Edinburgh Medical School. Instead of this, his career was shattered and his reputation blighted forever by fortuitous association with a gruesome and macabre scandal the story of which is as shocking today as it was to our forebears 172 years ago. To the world at large the memory of this man, Robert Knox, is almost as infamous as Bluebeard or Jack the Ripper, while his outstanding abilities and substantial achievements are largely forgotten, and yet he was never formally accused, far less convicted of any crime."

For more: http://www.rcsed.ac.uk/journal/vol45_6/4560011.htm

Marni

What a sad and scandalous story about Robert Knox! That last name "Knox" sticks in my mind for some reason. Is he related to another famous historical person in history? I am thinking of a preacher or religious figure during Queen Mary of Scots reign or Queen Elizabeth's reign. Maybe the "Knox" name just sounds familiar.

Anyway, I am glad JJA finally did get the chance to meet Sir Walter Scott. For awhile, JJA and Sir Walter Scott would cross paths and not meet for one reason or another. All the while each man had the desire to meet the other famous man. It seems Walter Scott was busy writing the life of Napoleon.

When JJA and Sir Walter Scott, the famous writer, of Rob Roy, Waverly and Ivanhoe do meet it is a pleasant meeting. JJA shows his paintings. Sir Walter Scott did like JJA's paintings but Sir Walter Scott's favorite style of painting was one of an imaginative nature or more like the paintings of the Romantic period. Audubon's works were precise and hard, more like the art in the Neoclassical Period. I think Sir Walter Scott used the word "stiff."

Unfortunately, I don't think Sir Walter Scott understood JJA's motivation for painting the American birds in such a precise fashion. Audubon's paintings were to become a legacy to America. Audubon had a futuristic vision that some of these birds would disappear by man's hand. He also wanted true reproductions for the British to see what flew in America's skies.

Since Sir Walter Scott was a kind man, I think he might have known how to word his criticisms very politely. JJA showed his comfort zone by sharing his fears for the future of America. Audubon also talked about his admiration for the Native Americans too. I think both men enjoyed the conversation and company of one another.

I am thinking of John Knox, a famous Scottish reformer during Mary Queen of Scots reign. Far down the family tree, could these two men share a family relationship?

Marni, I am repeating you. When I came to this part in the book, it really stirred my emotions all over again.

Now I see the deep heartfelt reason why Audubon kept his hair long. It all stemmed back to his horrible experiences in France during The French Revolution. It proves our childhoods, for good or bad, are always with us.

It is when he is finally convinced to have his hair cut. His words are so moving to me. So, I will quote JJA.

"As the barber clipped my locks rapidly, it reminded me of the horrible times of the French Revolution when the same operation was performed upon all the victims murdered by the guillotine. My heart sank low."

Then, Rhodes writes, "The trauma of his childhood lingered long after."

Hats: What a good point you made when you said: "Audubon had a futuristic vision that some of these birds would disappear by man's hand. He also wanted true reproductions for the British to see what flew in America's skies."

Audubon saw native people and birds and animals disappearing from the American scene. He created a visual and written record of American birds, some of which are now extinct and would never be seen without his paintings.

---------------------------

Audubon's words about the hair cut were moving. I do think you were correct, too, that he kept his hair long because he thought it made him an attractive and romantic figure. Audubon was a vain man.

Thank you Hats for your commentary on Sir Walter Scott and his meeting with JJ. Audubon was most anxious to meet Sir Walter, perhaps more so than any of the individuals he met or sought to meet in England. The stagecoach bringing Audubon to Edinburgh passed the Scott estate and as he passed he realized he must meet this man. During December and January while in Edinburgh the meeting with Scoot was always in his mind. Since the "1826 journal closed Dec 31st, it contains no record of the meeting that did not come until Jan 27, 1827. Several meetings followed at which JJ exhibited some of his paintings.

According to Rhodes Scott thought JJ’s pictures "laborious" meaning he was put off by their extreme correctness. To him they appeared stiff. I think this judgment was the result of the romanticist Sir Walter's viewing them as if they were fine art painting, like maybe the David painting of Napoleon in the Alps. He was looking for something to inspire passion, something to stir his soul. Audubon on the other hand was painting the reality; he was preserving on canvas an exact image of what he saw. He was striving for an accurate picture; his bird [pictures were intended more as a teaching tool than a wall decoration.

What do you think of Scott's opinion of JJ’s pictures that he expressed privately in his written journal? How do you view his pictures? Are they fine art or teaching tools?

I am not an art critic, but since reading Rhodes' book, I have enjoyed my "The Original Watercolor Paintings by John James Audubon for The Birds of America" much more than when I originally purchased it. It is almost unbelievable that he produced these beautiful pictures so quickly--after traipsing through the woods and swamps to get a specimen. What a man!! Like all the other women, I am in love with him. Lucy--get on the ship and go be with him!! (Make him change his clothes and take a bath, however.) You can tell I haven't finished the book yet so don't know if they finally get together again.

I did get the phamphlet from the Moorestown Lib about Edward Harris, and to my great pleasure the librarian said "there's another book BY Harris called 'Up the Missouri w/ Audubon."!!! I said "I'll take that one too!" I won't talk about it till we get to that time, but i have started it. What a pleasure! I would probably not have read either JJA or Harris's book if it wasn't for SeniorNet, thank you, thank you, thank you.....now if i can just find time to read them all plus all the wonderful postings and links...a...a..a...a..h.h.h.h.g.g.g.!.....jean

Evelyn: I feel the same way! I'm definitely appreciating Audubon's paintings much much more now that I know what he went through to find his birds and how he taught himself so much. And he certainly seems to have had a romantic look and charisma!

---------------------------------------

Jean: I think it is so interesting that Ed Harris lived around the corner from where you live. When I read how this gentleman farmer appreciated Audubon's work so much that he helped to finance his first trip to Britain to publish his Birds, I looked Harris up on the internet. I couldn't find anything about him. There were a bunch of Ed Harris' out there, but none that seemed to fit his picture. Can you tell us any more about him when you have a chance? Thanks!!

Marni

Oh, I would love to hear more about the Edward Harris pampthlet. Jean, when you have time, tell us all about it.

“Up the Missouri With Audubon- The Journal of Edward Harris, edited by John Francis McDermott was published in 1951 by the University of Oklahoma Press. I acquired a copy in the 1960 that I reread just prior to the beginning of this discussion. It is now out of print but surely it is available at most libraries and on the Used market.

While I have mentioned this book here before, I too have delayed detailed discussion until the next week period. It is an interesting account of a trip by Harris, Audubon and several others up the Missouri by steam boat to Fort Union at the mouth of the Yellowstone where they spent each day exploring, observing and shooting dead just about anything that crawled, roamed, or flew. It was 1843 when Audubon was 58 years old. He was obviously showing the physical decline of age and for this reason he did not engage in the frequent horse-back buffalo chases like the other principals.

Harold,

I am looking forward to next week. Then, you will share this wonderful adventure with us.

I have been pondering the question you asked about Audubon's paintings. I think his paintings are far more than one artist's desire to share beauty alone. I think Audubon truly tried and accomplished making his drawings clear and specific. His birds are drawn and painted in detail and in their particular habitats. His paintings do far more than please the eye. His paintings teach us about the lives of birds.

--- thank you for your comments concerning Audubon’s paintings. I think I too am now coming around to consider them more fine art than mere detailed description of birds. Specifically I don’t think Sir Walter Scott’s judgment of them as too detailed making them seem stiff is at all applicable today when many cameras costing only a few hundred dollars would show much greater detail than Audubon’s paintings.

I am inclined to judge his bird’s appearance as a bit stiff and therefore somewhat unnatural. I think this appearance stems not from detail but rather from the way they were posed (they were defacto stiff). Yet when viewing the Audubon images I tend to enjoy them. Believe me, if I owned several of the original edition hand colored pictures they would be framed and on prominent display in my living room, yet I am under no compulsion to acquire modern prints that are readily available.

Perhaps I am turned off by Audubon’s technique in posing his subjects for painting. I think this did tend to make the images appear stiff and somewhat unnatural to Scott and to me as well. In Edinburgh Audubon was inspired to paint one of his few non-bird art oil paintings. This was entitled “Cats fighting Over A Dead Squirrel.” In The 1826 Journal Audubon tells us “Mr Lazars was extremely kind procuring cats for a picture I will begin tomorrow.” Audubon executed the cats (somewhere I read by hanging) and posed them in his usual manner for painting. He gave the finished painting to his landlady, Mrs Dickie. The painting was sold by her estate in 1832 for four pounds. I don’t think this painting survives today, but there is a small pencil sketch of the scene in one of his journal that Audubon apparently used to conclude the painting.

It's interesting how we view Audubon's bird paintings today as somewhat stiff. We're used to photographs today and we see pictures of birds in the wild in their natural poses, in flight or still, in full brilliant color.

In his day, Audubon painted in a radically new method. Although he had to kill his subjects in order to see their details clearly for the time it took to paint them, he placed them in poses as close to nature as was possible. His bird paintings were very different from those that had been painted before him ; they were much more natural and were painted performing activities that they performed in the wild, such as feeding their babies, or killing prey, with beautiful backgrounds (which were not always painted by Audubon).

Marni

Once Audubon found William Home Lizars, who had been engraving life sized bird etchings for others for years, and arranged for Lizars to engrave and publish his book The Birds of America, they worked out the details of production. The project was enormous and would take at least 16 years!

Size

Audubon wanted to produce his book in full size, on large paper of the size called "double elephant," 2 feet wide and more than a yard high. This would show the actual size of his birds and would make his work more original and distinct. Editor Henry Bohn tried to talk Audubon out of this idea. He told Audubon that this larage size would limit sales to large public institutions and “a few noblemen.” Probably only 100 copies would be sold; the average person wouldn’t be able to afford the book or display the book on a table. But when Bohn saw his paintings, he changed his mind and said book must be life size and must be expensive.

Engraving Method

Lizars engraved Audubon's life sized paintings by producing a colored print of each painting. He did this by transferring the outline of the painting, using tracing paper, onto a large sheet of copper, then etching with acid to bite furrows into the copper wherever the drawing lines had touched. This etched copper plate was inked with black ink, wiped so ink was only in the furrows, pressed with damp paper which picked up the ink, and so duplicated the outlines of original. Colorists working for Lizars filled in the black and white outlines with transparent watercolors, each individual colorist handling one color in an assembly line fashion. Every plate, or print, was hand painted.

Publication Method

The book was to be distributed in a series of "Numbers" issued in a sequence over a period of months or years in unbound sets. This would allow distribution to begin while engraving continued. Each Number included 5 prints. Each Number included a variety – large, medium, and small birds - in order to vary scenes as the subscriber looked through the plates. The wild turkey cock was the first of Audubon’s paintings engraved – the first plate of the first Number of the book.

There were to be 80 Numbers in all. Once 20 Numbers were produced, this would make a "Volume." Altogether, 4 Volumes were to be produced. Once an entire Volume was produced, it could be bound. Altogether, there were to be 400 plates bound into 4 Volumes of 100 plates each.

5 Numbers were to be published annually for 16 years.

Price

Each Number cost 2 guineas ($164 today). A buyer could buy one Number or all Numbers. Each Number was to be paid for at the time of delivery, pay as you go.

Text

The text of the book was to be published separately to avoid a high tax. The text was to include "bird biographies" with anecdotes about each bird. The book of text was included in the original price of a Number(s).

Once Lizars prepared to begin the 2nd number, Audubon issued a Prospectus describing the book to help with sales.

Paying for Production

Audubon had to pay Lizars on an ongoing basis. He raised money by charging admission to exhibits, by selling subscriptions, and by painting his oil "potboilers."

Marni

I guess he really was traveling in elite circles.

I don't understand the way the pictures were placed. Did they come individually? Were the five bound together? How did they place a large, medium and small in one book; were the small and mediums together on a page? Has anyone seen the originals? Could you explain it to me?.......jean

Marni,

I am glad you explained the engraving process. I have never really understood how a painting is engraved.

Jean: The pages of paper would have all been the same size. It was the birds that varied in size - small, medium, large.

For example, the first plate was his wild turkey. A picture is in our book near page 388. The turkey is very large. Then there would be medium sized birds, then smaller birds.

The first Number contained the following 5 plates: (1) wild turkey cock, (2) two yellow-billed cuckoos, (3) two prothonotary warblers, (4) two male purple finches and a female, (5) a single immature female Bonaparte’s flycatcher [Canada warbler].

The birds shown in the online version of The Birds of America are not shown in the same order that they were published. But if you check in alphabetical order, you can see what the plates of the birds looked like.

Click Here: http://www.audubon.org/bird/BoA/BOA_index.html

Marni

Here's the 2nd plate (I think):

http://www.audubon.org/bird/BoA/images/originals/00449p1.gif

Here's the 4th plate (I think):

http://www.audubon.org/bird/BoA/images/originals/00323p1.gif

Here's the 5th plate (I think):

http://www.audubon.org/bird/BoA/images/originals/00154p1.gif

You can see how Audubon filled up space with multiple birds or with plants, etc.

I'll keep hunting to see if I find them in order in an online book.

Marni

Jean: I can't really tell from the Rhodes book how one Number would have been delivered to a subscriber. Were they just individual sheets packaged somehow?

Rhodes says it would not have been bound until enough Numbers for a Volume were delivered. How these were bound, since a subscriber received the Numbers one at a time, I can't tell. Four of the five Numbers would already be at the subscriber's home or wherever. Who bound them?

I'll check online and see if I can find more info.

Harold: Did you find anything about this?

Here's another online version of Audubon's book with Preface and other info. Perhaps this gives more information about the original..??

http://www.abirdshome.com/Audubon/

I'm going to browse through this later.

Marni

I think Audubon’s 19th century color process was similar to the way I made the attached color photo (that I have shown before). I made it using standard black and white film and printed an 8X10 inch black & white print. I then chemically changed the black shading to a sepia (brown) toned shading. The purpose of the change to sepia is that the hand-applied colors show up better over the sepia than the black. Then transparent oil colors were applied by hand using a cotton swab. Finally I scanned the completed 8X10 hand colored print to print or screen digital copies. The copy displayed is reduced to 4X6 for size consideration. This is the way color portraits were made in the pre-1950’s before color photographs became common.

In Audubon’s day they made the black & white engraved print reproduction. Perhaps instead of black they too used a sepia color. Over this copy they then applied by hand the colors, perhaps water colors or maybe a light oil color as I used here.

I too am confused as to exactly how the finished pictures were delivered to subscribers. I have the idea that they were sent by mail 5 at a time to subscribers. What the subscriber did with them after that was up to the individual. If this is correct no wonder there are but few of the original edition surviving today. Because of their size it would not seem practical bound as a book.

Harold: That's quite a complicated process. How did you become interested in the work?

-------------------------

I loved reading about Audubon's first colored finished set of plates. He displayed the it to the Royal Society of Edinburgh in the presence of his idol, Sir Walter Scott. The Society members were astonished at his publication and Audubon was unanimously elected a foreign Fellow Member of the Royal Society of Edinburgh.

On April 5, 1827, Audubon left for London bringing 82 letters of introduction including one to Robert Peel, future prime minister, and one to Albert Gallatin, who had served as the U.S. Secretary of the Treasurery under Presidents Jefferson and Madison. (I visited his grave this spring. Both Gallatin and Alexander Hamilton are buried at Trinity Church in NYC.)

Gallatin info: http://www.ustreas.gov/education/history/secretaries/agallatin.html

Audubon had been disappointed in Lizar’s quality of work and timeliness. Lizar’s colorists had struck and the work was behind schedule. Audubon found that London produced a higher quality of engraving. He hired Robert Havell and his son Robert to take on the engraving work. They were cheaper and better than Lizar. Audubon got all the copper plates and the colored and uncolored prints from Lizar.

The Havells did painstaking work and used a newer technology – aquatint, which enabled them to print shadows and shadings. The aquatint method used acid (aqua fortis = strong water). Aquatint produced more subtleties of chiaroscuro (creating an illusion of depth). Rhodes says on page 300, "The Birds of America is generally acknowledged to be the finest work of colored engraving involving aquatint ever produced.” It was also one of the last. In 1830 aquatint was replaced by lithography.

More about aquatint:

http://www.collectorsprints.com/glossary/aquatint.asp

Goya’s Los Caprichos in aquatint online:

http://www.wesleyan.edu/dac/coll/grps/goya/caprichos_01-10.html

The Havells produced the 2nd Number of Audubon's book. This Number included the immature bald eagle, Baltimore orioles, snow birds (juncos), prairie warblers, and blue yellow-backed warblers.

Marni

I've been reading the Publisher's Preface in the online version of Audubon's book that I just provided for you by a link. It's very interesting. It says about this version:

"The text and plates for this National Audubon Society Anniversary Edition have been carefully reproduced directly from Audubon's original first editions. They appear here in their entirety, in the exact sequence as when first issued 135 years ago. However, to make this edition more compact and thus more manageable, each of the five volumes contains two of Audubon's volumes within a single binding. Not a single color plate has been omitted, not a word of text has been deleted from these timeless American classics."

But, from what the Preface a bit farther down, the publisher seems to say that this edition is produced from Audubon's Octavo edition. This was a later edition, smaller, that we will read about shortly. The order of birds must have been changed around because the order here is definitely different from that described by Rhodes in our biography.

Marni

Wow! I found Audubon original prints on sale on the internet. A Havell first edition print of "American White Pelican," plate #311, is selling for $135,000.

http://www.philaprintshop.com/audbird.html

Here is a very interesting article explaing more about the Havell edition of Audubon's book.

http://www.minniesland.com/study_Havell_Edition.html

I have not yet been able to find anything about how the prints were sent to the subscribers.

Marni

Since I still can't find my book (I've looked everywhere GRRRRRRRRR), I'm glad you gave us so much information about the printing.

I've been hoping to have a chance to share some of the less familiar birds with you all. Interesting, the first one was the wild turkey. You are all familiar with that (does the book mention that Benjamin Franklin thought it ought to be the National bird instead of the bald eagle?)

The second is the yellow-billed cuckoo, which Marni gave you a link to. Here it is again:

I JUST REALIZED MY LINKS DON'T WORK. NO MATTER WHAT PAGE I COPY, I GET THE TABLE OF CONTENTS. MARNI'S LINK DOES WORK

There are two, very similar cuckoos found in the US: the yellow-billed and the black billed. Here in Maryland I see them only in migration. They are chiefly notable for their long, flashy tails. They are not the European cuckoos that you see portrayed in cuckoo clocks. The European cuckoos have the bad habit of laying their eggs in other species' nests, so that the other bird does the work of raising the young. I think it was thought at first that our cuckoos do the same, but they are innocent.

Back with a bird that caught a spy!!

Wood Warblers have to be amoung everyone's favorite birds. No wonder Audubon chose two species in his first 5 paintings. They are the butterflies of the bird world. About 4 inches long, and in constant motion, they migrate in the spring and fall in mixed flocks. If a flock of Spring warblers visits your yard, you will see almost all of the colors of the rainbow flitting around your trees.

I've been flittng among A's pictures of warblers, and they do show up one defect of the works -- the colors are much too dull. In real life, they practically glow! This is especially true of the bird in his third print: the prothonotary warbler: (I can't get links to his prints to work, so here is a photograph from Cornell. scroll down and click for pictures from a nestcam:

PROTHONOTARY WARBLER

In real life it is a brilliant orange-yellow.

This bird had its 15 minutes of fame back in the 1950s, when it was involved in the unmasking of a spy. Back in a minute with the details.

I don't know how many of you remember the Alger Hiss/ Whittaker Chambers investigation. It brought Richard Nixon to national prominence, as the chairman of a subcommittee of HUAC investigating Hiss.

Chambers was a known spy. As (I guess) part of a deal, he named other spies he knew, including Alger Hiss, a well respected member of the Washington establishment

As this link tells the story:

ALGER HISS

Hiss denied ever having met Chambers. Most people believed him, but Nixon kept digging. He asked Chambers for details to show that he knew Hiss. Among other questions, he asked if Hiss had a hobby>

"Yes, he did. They both [Alger and Priscilla Hiss] had the same hobby--amateur ornithologists, bird observers. They used to get up early in the morning and go to Glen Echo, out the canal, to observe birds. I recall once they saw, to their great excitement, a prothonotary warbler."

"A turning point in the investigation came when Richard Nixon asked, "What hobby, if any do you have, Mr. Hiss?" Hiss answered that his hobbies were "tennis and amateur ornithology." Congressman John McDowell jumped in: "Did you ever see a 1. prothonotary warbler?" Hiss fell into the trap, responding, "I have--right here on the Potomac. Do you know that place?" In discussions after the hearing, Committee members indicated they were now convinced Hiss was lying, based in large part on the response about the warbler. It seemed to Stripling and others very unlikely that Chambers could have known about such a detail through a general study of Hiss's life. It had to be firsthand knowledge".

I feel very sad that studying birds was turned to such a use, especially since I think I know the exact spot where he saw the bird -- I also have been there looking for prothonotary warblers.

JoanK: Thanks for the info and story about the birds. I had never heard of warblers before reading about them in our bio. I wonder if there are any in CT. Now that I think about it, "warbler" is a word sometimes used in place of "singer." Are warblers supposed to have particularly beautiful songs?

It's true that Audubon's plates on the internet are rather colorless. In the publisher's Preface in one edition of Audubon's book, the publisher mentioned that it is impossible to scan Audubon's prints into a computer and maintain the colors of the actual prints. Apparently, they are quite brilliant in real life.

I had the same trouble you had while trying to create links to the bird pictures in the online The Birds of America. Harold told me how to create a link to the picture instead of the Contents:

Get to the picture you want to link to. Then right-click on the picture. A menu pops up. Click on Properties. You'll then see the http URL. Just hightlight it and copy.

Marni

Yesterday afternoon I visited my Guadalupe property to check the freeze protection since we were to get our first significant freeze. When I finished I spent an hour and a half observing birds on the 3/4-acre pond. When I arrived at 4:30 there were some half dozen wild ducks feeding on the surface. Getting into my blind, I succeeded in scaring them off. After that there were occasional cardinals on the other side using a broken limb dangling on the surface as a drinking perch. Occasionally I could see raptor type soaring birds probably turkey buzzards high in the air looking for carrion.

As the time for sunset approached I would sometimes hear rather loud birdcalls from surrounding mesquite trees but never actually saw the bird or birds responsible for the call. The sun set on schedule at 5:30 and during the half hour that followed I continue to hear several different calls from birds that I did not see and could not identify. I had expected ducks would return but it did not happen; but about 10 minutes after sunset I heard the flapping of wings and squawking calls as a flight of starlings settled into a hackberry tree near by. Though the mid 50's temperature was not bitter cold, in my light jacket it was uncomfortable with the north wind and since at 6:00 PM it was quite dark I made my way back to the house and my car and returned to San Antonio.

That Prothonotary Warbler is a beautifully colored bird. I see they winter in Central America and we might see them in Texas on their migration during Sept and Oct and again in the Spring, March – May. I have never seen one, but will watch for them in the spring. That is an interesting story about the role this bird played in the Hiiss/Chambers case.

We are lucky in Texas because we get a wide variety of migratory birds that either winter in Texas or pass through on their way further south. One of these northern bird that we might see in Texas in the winter is the Robin. It rarely shows in my Central Texas area but in March 2003 the yard outside my Office window in Guadalupe County was alive with them, pecking the ground for insects. Click Here for some not too good pictures I took with my first generation digital camera. For several days we were favored with their presence, not only at my back yard in Guadalupe County, but also at the 18th century Espada mission on the outskirts of San Antonio. There the compound yard also was alive with them. I have not seen a Robin here since.

I also remember one Saturday morning in the early 80's when my back yard was visited by a large flock of blue birds. I was not certain if they were the eastern or western variety. I did not have a camera available so I have no pictures. I have not seen a blue bird here since. Also about 1998 there was a sighting of a Green Jay at the Espada Mission. This bird seldom appears North of the lower Rio Grande Valley some 300 miles south of the Espada site.

I am enjoying all of the comments about birds and birding. JoanK, thank you for distinguishing the European cuckoo from yellow billed and black billed cuckoos. Immediately, I thought of the cuckoo clock. Now I know only the European cuckoo is associated with the cuckoo clock.

The Prothonotary Warbler is truly beautiful. I have never seen one or heard of a Prothonotary Warbler.

Harold,

Thank you sharing your shots of the robins. I read your descriptions along side the photos. What a fun hobby! Photographing birds must feel so exciting. I bet you will never grow tired of that hobby.

Marni,

Thank you for all the links and research. You do put your whole heart in helping us to enjoy a discussion.

It's my pleasure, Hats!

Harold: I love your robin pictures. The robin is the state bird of Connecticut. It's one of my favorite birds. When we see a robin here in the spring, we get excited because it's considered one of the first signs of spring. Robins love to eat earthworms. We have millions of earthworms in the soil of my yard, so we have many robins who make their homes in my sugar maple trees. They lay beautiful blue eggs. I love to see an entire robin family hopping around, parents and babies, pulling on worms to yank them out of the ground. They seem to enjoy the apples in my northern spy apple tree, too; or maybe they're eating bugs in the apples. They are beautiful birds with bright red breasts and huge bright eyes.

Marni

Our state bird is the Mockingbird. I think Robins are prettier.

I'll have to post in pieces so i don't take up the whole space.

Harold - did you take a B/W of the "jazz scene" and then do the process you were talking about? I love that picture.

I loved the bird footprints in the "birdhomes" link.

About a month a go my dgt and i were driving down Main ST in Moorestown and near the end of the street near some fields we saw these huge birds soaring around. I tho't they were hawks, we have a number of them around and one, a brown hawk, that sometimes comes to our back yard, but they were huge. We pulled in a side street where we had seen them light in the trees and stopped the car. Looking up into tall trees we saw 7 or 8 what i then knew were vultures of some kind! I have seen them soaring around that area for about 5 or so yrs, but again always tho't they were hawks, or eagles, we do have a nest of bald eagles in the area. My dgt and i laughed about a boxer dog that was in a yard near-by and wondered whether it was smart to let your dog or your kids out with this congregation in the neighborhood. When i got home, i naturally looked in my Birds of NJ book. They were turkey vultures, who, fortunately , only eat dead things and grains, etc.

Let me give you a paragraph of the preface of the phamplet on Ed Harris: (I'll include some of the "Moorestown locale" in case Ginny is lurking). He was born in the Smith-Cadbury Mansion (now the home of the Moorestown Historical Society) and lived there for almost half a century and died at his only other home, ...now known as the Greenleaf (now the main bldg of a Quaker Nursing Home, where Alice Paul died.)He was a concerned citizen who was active in the life of the town and gave liberally of his fortune for community causes.(he gave land and money for the bdg of the Methodist Church and the Episcopal Church). His was a scientific bent and he was sufficiently versed in ornithology, geology and zoology to contribute papers to the Academy of Nat'l Sciences in PHila and the Smithsonian Inst in Wash. He accompanied JJA on 2 expeditions because A esteemed his value as a naturalist. He was well acquainted w/ the other noted naturalists of the day and w/ many of the important people of the 19th century both at home and abroad. Harris was the first to introduce the Percheron horse to the U.S. and he bred these horses on the farmland then part of Smith-Cadbury.

I'll add more as we get to his trips w/ JJA.

Thanks for the info about Ed Harris, Jean. I'm going to keep hunting for him on the web now that I know a bit more about him.

We have quite a few turkey vultures (or turkey buzzards? same thing?) flying around the southern part of CT near the shore area. They are really ugly!!

Turkey vulture: http://www.birds.cornell.edu/programs/AllAboutBirds/BirdGuide/Turkey_Vulture.html

Doesn't look all that ugly here!

Jean, thank you. It is interesting to learn about the man who went on expeditions with JJA.

I love horses. I have never heard of Percheron horses.

I'm realizing how wonderful these Cornell Lab of Ornithology bird sites are - just filled with interesting info and the sounds of the birds. I just noticed the Cool Facts area on the Turkey Vulture:

The Turkey Vulture uses its sense of smell to locate carrion. The part of its brain responsible for processing smells is particularly large, compared to other birds. Its heightened ability to detect odors allows it to find dead animals below a forest canopy.

The Turkey Vulture maintains stability and lift at low altitudes by holding its wings up in a slight dihedral (V-shape) and teetering from side to side while flying. It flies low to the ground to pick up the scent of dead animals.

Like its stork relatives, the Turkey Vulture often defecates on its own legs, using the evaporation of the water in the feces to cool itself down.

The Turkey Vulture usually forages alone, unlike its smaller, more social relative, the Black Vulture. Although one Turkey Vulture can dominate a single Black Vulture at a carcass, usually such a large number of Black Vultures appear that they can overwhelm a solitary Turkey Vulture and take most of the food.

JoanK: I was browsing thru the Cornell Lab of Ornith. and found the Baltimore oriole listed. Did you mention something awhile back that they had changed the name of the bird? Check this out:

The Baltimore Oriole hybridizes extensively with the Bullock's Oriole where their ranges overlap in the Great Plains. The two species were considered the same for a while and called the Northern Oriole, but recently, they were separated again. Molecular studies of the oriole genus indicate that the two species are not very closely related.

http://www.birds.cornell.edu/programs/AllAboutBirds/BirdGuide/Baltimore_Oriole.html

MARNI: " The two species [Baltimore and Bullock's orioles] were considered the same for a while and called the Northern Oriole, but recently, they were separated again". That's wonderful --I can see I'm behind the times. We have our State Bird back again!

BALTIMORE ORIOLE

For years there was a pair that nested in a tree just outside my study window. They build an unusual nest that looks like a hanging basket. It was fun seeing them make it.

MARNI: saying turkey buzzards are the ugliest bird is half true. They are the ugliest bird in the world when they are on the ground, and one of the most beautiful when they are in the air, floating on air currents.

Buzzards do have a habit that does not endear them. When buzzards feel threatened, their defense is to throw up on their attacker. Since they eat carrion, you do not to get to know their what that is like! So be careful.

On a prettier note, yes, you have warblers in Connecticut. I don't have my guide at hand, but I think more nest there than here. We see them mainly in migration. To see Audubon's pictures of warblers, go into the site, pick "families, and scroll down to Family no. VIII, wood warblers.

The picture of JJA on pg 275 looks very different from all the others we've seen. I think it must have been a bad job on the artist's part. Even JJ comments on his eyes looking like an angry eagle, or something to that effect. But i think the biggest difference is in the jaws and chin. In all the other pictures his jaws look broader and his chin stronger. It got me thinking about how we picture people who lived before cameras by the perception of the artist, which may be incorrect, but put into history's image.

I just got to the hair cutting passage. I have wondered about how stable he seems - except for something i'll mention in the next paragraph - considering all he had gone thru in his early life. The hair-cutting comments indicates that those experiences have not disappeared from his psyche.

None of you seem to be as incensed at his behavior toward Lucy as I am. He appears to have the attitude that "I am the important one. I am the artist and I will do anything it takes to promote my work. Being a husband and father is less significant - BUT, I would like to have a WIFE with me!" There is Lucy raising and supporting 2 sons, a working single mother, apart from her family, and he's moaning about how he misses her - but not taking ANY responsibility for the fact that HE made the decision to go away - EVERY SINGLE TIME HE HAS GONE. I'm not saying he shouldn't be promoting his work, even if he has to leave the family to do so, but he has the audacity to imply that it is HER fault that they are separated and shows no appreciation for what she is doing.

He's loving the accolades that he is getting in Europe and is "incensed at his wife's seeming lack of confidence in him."....she's not in Europe hearing what he is hearing, she doesn't know if all this separation is going to amount to any financial help for her family. She's taken care of the family, given him money to go to Europe and he buys two god-awful expensive watches, which seem to have been lost in the mail and which it appears she wasn't happy about even if she had received it. Not a move that promotes trustworthiness in my book.

"He was pursuing (his successes) he wrote bitterly, merely to prove that he loved her, had loved her, loved her still, much more than she had seemed to think .." In her letter she had asked him if he intended to settle permanently in Europe or to returen to Am. HE DID NOT YET KNOW, he told her, and he blamed her in part for the uncertainty!!!!"

And then he has the gall to say, "Recollect that I wish thy happiness and nothing else but recollect also that I am becoming a judge {of} what is best for BOTH OF US (his emphasis)." Had I been Lucy he would have been fortunate that he was thousands of miles away! My response to all of that would have been an 8 letter unprintable word beginning w/ B and ending w/ T and that would have been just the beginning!

Rhodes does not tell us if the writings of May 16 were in the same letter as those above that were in a writing of May 15. But imagine if they were two separate letters. Lucy may have gotten the first one and been offended and angry for many days or weeks before she got the one written on the 16th that said, "Do not think my sweet wife that my letter was wrote to thee w/ any wish to discomfort thee. It may(?) sound to thee of an angry tone, but if so believe me it is only the result of the constant want of thee that I am in.....and most sincerely wish thy happiness - so by no means do thou feel hurt if any of the expressions appear(?) harsh.God bless thee." ...No, "I know it is my pursuit of my goals that has separated us" or "I appreciate that you are raising and supporting our sons alone while I seek my success......etc. etc...." Oh-h-h-h-h that infuriated me! Can you tell .....jean

JEAN: I don't blame you.

Last night on PBS there was a 21/2 hour biography of Benjamin Franklin. He lived slightly earlier, but he was the same sort of husband. At one point, he told his wife " I'm going to France, but I'll be right back. I know we were about to build a house, but wait til I get back". She started to build the house as soon as he left. Luckily for her -- he was gone 16 years, and she died just before he returned. Meanwhile, he was flirting up a storm in France. (The show tried to imply that it was all talk -- that he was faithful. yeah, right).

Bur the letters that they quoted were always loving. It's easy to be loving when all you have to do is write a letter once in a while. He was also writing loving letters to other women.

Jean and JoanK: I have to admit I'm laughing!! I loved reading your comments about Audubon and his attitude and letters to his wife. I totally agree with you! His poor wife! My gosh, what she went through - all those years of raising the children and supporting the family. Yes, Audubon worked and earned money, but it seems most of it never made it home to the family.

You can tell from Lucy's letters back to A. that she was bitter about it and cynical about his words of success. Who could blame her!!??!! But, A. did feel very guilty about the situation he left her in and the fact that she had to work.

Audubon seems to be drawn in 2 directions - one, the irresistable draw of the birds, the wild, and the painting, taking his attention from other, perhaps more lucrative, pursuits near his family - two, the yearning to be with his wife and sons that he loved dearly and the knowledge that he should be taking better care of them.

We'll see shortly how Lucy and Audubon come out of this mess after all the letters crossing in the mail and the misunderstandings and hurt feelings. Let's hope love heals all. Hopefully, the bird book subscribers keep signing up and stay interested and Audubon can do a better job of collecting money owed than he did earlier! Hopefully, his work will pay off and they'll be together and rich!

Marni

may have been away when the house was being built, but he sent dishes, silver, furniture that he wanted in HIS house. He sent letters to his wife telling her what kind of pots and pans to buy and what kind of carpet and wall coverings to use. If you go to Franklin Square in Phila. there is an "outline" structure of the house and quotes from his letters saying those things. I guess he would agree w/ JJA that he "was (the) judge of what is best for the both of them" also.......jean

JoanK: When I looked at the picture of the Baltimore oriole, I remembered that I actually saw one in Maryland a few years ago. We were visiting my sister-in-law who lived with her family in St. Mary's, Maryland, on the west side of Chesapeake Bay, near the St. Mary's River. Her husband was the Dean of Art at St. Mary's College for many years up until 2 years ago when they relocated to Philadelphia.

She took us to a place that had been a Civil War prison....I'm trying to remember where it was. It was right on the water and we saw from maps there that quite a bit of the shoreland had been washed away since....Oh, I just found it on the web - Point Lookout Prison, a union prison. Anyway, we saw a Baltimore oriole there in a tree next to the parking lot. I couldn't miss it! It was so gorgeous and colorful!! It was quite exciting. My one and only Baltimore oriole. I'm glad it has its name back.

Marni

Speaking of Ben Franklin.....He used to wear a "coonskin" hat around Paris. The Parisians, like the British, were really into things from the wild American frontier. The hat represented what they thought Americans looked like even though Franklin was as sophisticated as they come. It helped make Franklin extraordinarily popular.

Audubon did the same thing. He dressed up like a frontiersman to drum up interest in his book. He had his portrait painted while he was dressed in frontier clothes and held his gun.

This reminds me of Lincoln, too. In his first presidential campaign, he marketed himself as the frontier Abe who lived in a log cabin, reading by the firelight, chopping wood, etc. so he could get more votes from the common man. He didn't want to market himself as the man he had really become - the crafty, brilliant corporate railroad lawyer who lived in a mansion.

Marni

I've been thinking about that turkey vulture with his vile ways. Ughhh! Well, I guess it works for him. Give me a bald eagle any day.

MARNI: I'm so glad you saw the oriole. I agree -- I'll take a bald eagle over a turkey vulture too.

Ben Franklin did an amazing number of things (I had no idea he discovered the gulf stream) but as a husband and father, he has to rank down at the end of any list!! I think one of those nagging letters would see me head for the hills.

I just got the "Founding Mothers" book for the proposed discussion in February. I'll be interested to see if she talks about these marriages.

Hats: What state are you in. The mocking bird is also the state bird of Texas. There are many in my area of Central Texas, yet I have no photos of them principally because since they are bug eaters they never visited my feeders where I took most of my pictures. I’lll have to get some mocking bird shots.

Jean:

Harold - did you take a B/W of the "jazz scene" and then do the process you were talking about? I love that picture.

Yes Jean that is what I was trying to say. The 4 X6 inch image of the New Orleans street jazz band that I linked is a jpg scan of the hand colored Photo. The process makes it appear more like a water color painting than a color photo.

The Baltimore Oriole too passes through Texas to winter further south in Mexico. I have seen them in Guadalupe County in the spring of fall but have no pictures.

Regarding the JJ/Lucy relationship during this period of separation there does to me seem to be indication of real increasing estrangement. In my judgment this was the result of the many long periods of separation. Though the separations were forced by economic conditions and were not the choice of ether party, the resulting tension was real and felt by both parties.

Harold,

I am in the state of Tennessee. I don't see many mockingbirds. I see cardinals everyday.

I think Lucy and JJA's relationship is really complex. At one moment, I can see Lucy's feelings so clearly. Then, I read JJA's letters and I sympathize with him.

If I had to take sides, I would take JJA's side. He is not over in Europe having a party. He is working hard trying to get subscriptions for his book. It's not a secret that America is where his heart lies. He doesn't love Europe. He's there to make an income for his family.

Lucy was not unacknowleable about JJA's future need to go across the sea. Without going to Liverpool, Edinborough, Paris, he would not have met the important people we have talked about.

I think Lucy should have followed him there. With her by his side, they could have worked as a team. He would not have suffered depression. Probably, they could have returned to America sooner. After all, Lucy could have taught in Europe. Maybe she would have made more money teaching in Europe. I think she should have taken the boys and followed him.

It is too bad, Hats, that they spent all those years apart. JJA felt Lucy didn't trust him to earn enough. Perhaps she didn't. It was a sad part of their story.

Fiddle de dee!! Can you imagine what it must have been like for Lucy to manage home and children alone (in a man"s world, and say what you may, it still is) Think of crossing the ocean in those days. I can barely sit still for the hours it takes to fly in a plane and I don't have to plan to take much to eat or wear on the way. I think both of them were extraordinary, but my sympathies are stronger on Lucy's side. By the way, one afternoon a friend and I were driving on one of Iowa's back roads and as we came around a curve there was a medium sized shrub and it was decorated with eight or ten Baltimore orioles. Speak of a thrill!! I don't know if they migrate in groups or not. Wish I could ask Audubon. I love their song. I think they talk in paragraphs instead of just phrases.

Audubon was elected to several important societies in Edinburgh. These were nothing to sneeze at. They were very important honors. I'm not sure his family back in America quite realized how important.

Audubon was elected an honorary member of the Wernerian Society in Edinburgh. (Charles Darwin wrote in his autobriography, "Dr. Grant took me occasionally to the meetings of the Wernerian Society, where various papers on natural history were read, discussed, and afterwards published in the 'Transactions.' I heard Audubon deliver there some interesting discourses on the habits of N. American birds....")

http://www.scholarly-societies.org/history/1808wnhs.html

Audubon was elected to the Edinburgh Society of Arts.

http://www.scholarly-societies.org/history/1821rssa.html

Audubon was elected a foreign Fellow Member of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, Scotland's national academy of science and letters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Society_of_Edinburgh

EVELYN: "eight or ten Baltimore orioles. Speak of a thrill!! I don't know if they migrate in groups or not. Wish I could ask Audubon. I love their song. I think they talk in paragraphs instead of just phrases."

How wonderful. These are the things we remember for years. Yes, they do migrate in groups, here sometimes with Rose-Breasted Grosbeaks (I don't know about Idaho).

ROSE BREASTED GROSBEAK

Lucy and JJA found themselves in difference places at different parts of their lives. I think it's hard for anyone outside of a marriage to truly understand the feelings of all who are involved. It's just sad to read the letters and the heart just yearns for the solution to come quickly. Then, they can spend their last years together sharing some peace and joy.

Those are beautiful!! It's wonderful how all birds are different and so brilliant in color.

of a window and on a bush outside the window was a tufted titmouse. It is a slate gray w/ a white chest and belly and a tuft on its' head. They are supposed to be in NJ year round, but i have only seen one once before in our yard. I saw a lot of them in my cousins' yard in Roselle, Ga a year ago. My book says they are notorious for pulling hair from sleeping dogs, cats and squirrels to line their nests!! There are plenty of those creatures around, but i've never seen it happen. I like them for their looks AND the male feeds the female during courting and nesting. Have to like a man who feeds his woman LOL.........

I've wondered how JJA and others could be so sure about what they were naming types of birds. I wonder if they changed many name types after discussion w/ others or after learning about similar birds that someone else may have already named. For instance, the titmouse is similar, but larger than the black-capped chickadee - we get those in our yard in the spring. And did he give names to any "new types" that some else had already named? Maybe i missed that in my reading, can any of you answer that?.......jean

Oh, the tufted titmouse is the sweetest thing. There are many in our part of CT. Supposedly where you see the chickadee, you see the titmouse. We have lots of both in our yard and they both are such a pleasure. They are very small birds with a wonderful little peeping sound. I love the crest and bright large beady eyes of the titmouse. They seem to love sunflower seeds and blueberries in my yard.

That is so funny about them pulling hair from sleeping animals! I've never heard that before. I know that when I brushed my dog in the yard, leaving big puffs of hair, the puffs would disappear quickly because birds used it for their nests.

--------------------------------

I haven't seen much in our book how bird names were chosen - the Latin names, for example. But, there are some instances in our book when Audubon named some birds for people he admired. It seems that sometimes Audubon also knew when someone else, like Wilson, had mistaken a bird for another. Audubon had certainly done his research over the years. He did know his birds.

I think it's thrilling how knowledgeable he was about ornithology when you think that he probably taught himself much of what he knew about them.

Marni

I get the impression France was poorer than England. I think Audubon mentions the fact that the Industrial Revolution had not made its way yet to France. In JJA's eyes France seemed countrylike, not developed. JJA felt that making his way to England first had been a good move. The trip to England allowed him more subscribers because of new industries and wealth.

JJA did meet important people in France. He met Louis Philippe, the Duc d'Orleans. Audubon also had the chance to present his work at the Academie Royale des Sciences.

I do not know how to make one of those accents on my computer. Maybe my computer is not equipped to make one.

I am not familiar with many of the important French people named by Audubon: The naturalist, Swainson, the flower painter Pierre Joseph Redoute. I do like the praise JJA receives from the French people. One man calls JJA "the king of ornithological painters."

Many people die before hearing others praise their name. I feel proud that JJA is getting the chance to see and hear his work praised. "It is thrilling" to realize how much he had learned, on his own, about ornithology.

I think Aududbon might also have left France for another reason. He always remembered his illegitmacy. He thought of it as a stain on his character. He felt that if people discovered his origins, his work would become less desirable.

Sorry for posting so many posts together.

I discovered a passage on pg 299 where Rhodes says JJ mistook a young bald eagle for a new species and called it the "Bird of Washington." Guess i psychically anticipated that passage, uh? LOL

Marni - I also brush our dog outside and leave the hair for the birds and squirrels......jean

Is it permissible to ask the readers about experience in traveling? My friend and I would like to visit Northern Ireland next year. Is May a good time? Are there places to stay other than hotels? Has anyone had the experience of driving there? Have you heard of Antrim or Dowd county? Are tours better than going it on your own? If these questions are out of line, please ignore the post. Thanks.

Hey, EVELYN: we're all friends here -- never out of place to ask questions.

We have a discussion on everything in Seniornet, and there is one on the British isles, with some great people in it. There are also links to Ireland info in the heading. I'll bet you can get lots of good info there. Just click. (I gave you the last few posts to get the flavor. If you don't want to read them, click on "last".

GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND

Hats: Thank you for the information about Audubon' trip to France. You certainly don't need to apologize for writing a number of postings. We appreciate them!

Audubon traveled to France with William Swainson and his wife. I had never heard of Swainson, either, so I looked him up.

William Swainson (October 8, 1789 - December 6, 1855), was an English ornithologist and artist. He travelled in Brazil from 1816 to 1818, returning to England with a collection of over 20,000 insects, 1,200 species of plants, drawings of 120 species of fish, and about 760 bird skins. His friend William Elford Leach encouraged him to experiment with lithography for his book Zoological Illustrations (1820-23). Audubon named Swainson's Warbler after him; Charles Lucien Bonaparte named Swainson's Hawk for him, and Swainson's Thrush was named for him by Thomas Nuttall.

(That's how some birds were named!!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Swainson

--------------------------------------

You're right. France was poverty stricken at this time in their history. Just think of what they had been through recently. War, war, war, revolution, conquests, huge cultural, political and religious changes, counter-revolutions, and so on. All of this cost money. Only a few could afford Audubon's book. Many who had had money had been killed in the Revolution and/or property confiscated. Things were still in a state of turmoil.

Audubon was only able to sign up 14 subscribers in France, one of them the king and another, the duc d'Orleans, the future king.

If anyone is interested, here is a link to a timeline of French history - a fast way to scan some important events in France in chronological order.

http://www.uncg.edu/rom/courses/dafein/civ/timeline.htm

http://ydelta.free.fr/history.htm

Marni

Hats: I don't know what kind of computer you have, but I'll tell you how I make letters with accents. (It takes a number of steps the first time.) I have a PC with Windows XP. I go to the Character Map by doing the following:

Click on the Start button (bottom left corner), then click on All Programs, Accessories, System Tools, Character Map. Once in the Character Map, I click on the Ariel font and scroll down looking at the choice of letters to find the letter and accent that I want. (Let's say I want the small letter e with accent egu.) I click on the letter e that I want (it pops up), click on the Select button so the letter appears in the "Characters to Copy" box. Then click the Copy button.

Now my letter is copied and ready to paste somewhere. I can paste it directly into a SeniorNet posting - like right here: é

I can use the Edit, paste function in MS Internet Explorer, or I can type Control V to paste the letter.

I used this same method to get the letters with macrons that I needed for my Latin class. I didn't want to keep going through this long process, so I copied/pasted the letters I needed into my Latin 101 Tips MS Word document. Now, I can just open that document and copy the letter I want.

Does anyone have an easier method?

Marni

That's the easiest way I've found with my Wordperfect. If you have Word, and use those characters a lot, there is a way to create a button that will type them directly. But for most uses, Marni's way is fine.

Hey, I hope EVELYN isn't having so much fun in the Britain and Ireland site that she forgets to come back.

I love titmice and chickadees, too. It's a lot of fun to feed them in the Winter. Boy, the chickadees know when its time to eat! If I was late filling the feeder, they would come to the window and scold me.

I like the names of the Titmice and chickadees. Those names make me think of fairy tales or Beatrix Potter for some reason.

EVELYN: I hope Evelyn returns too. I enjoyed hearing from her.

I continue to struggle with this computer. I am now unprotected but unable to remove my Norton Security to reinstall it or a different package.

Hats; Audubon too noted the fact that France was poorer than England when he visited there in 1827. He also noted that the air in France was much less polluted from coal smoke. He or Rhodes at any rate contributed this cross channel differences to the fact that the industrial revolution had not yet progressed to the point it had reached in England. Italy,Spain, the German States and further east would have been even less industrialized than France.

Evelyn you are always welcome to ask your associates here questions. However the following Senior’s Net resources might be moe specific tho your needs. The first link below leads to our Round Table discussion Menu that includes many discussions on many different subjects. One of these is our Books and Literature folder; another is the second link below, the Travel folder where there are many discussions on different places including the third link Ireland.

Click Here for the Menu of Senior’s Net Round Table Discussions.

Click Here For Travel Folder,

Click Here for a specific discussion on travel in Ireland.

Ahah! I was just reading ahead and saw, "Robert Havell began binding volume two of The Birds of America for British subscribers and shipping bound sets across the Atlantic..."

So Havell did the binding and shipped bound sets. I wonder if some subscribers just waited for their Numbers until enough had been produced to create a whole Volume? Either that or they shipped the Numbers they had received back to Havell for binding?? I suppose by the time many subscribed, already enough had been produced so that they could receive a whole bound volume shortly after subscribing.

I may have just succeeded in removing the corrupted Norton Security Package (fire wall, anti-virus, etc) from my computer that was causing my problem. The files and directories are gone and importantly it seems to have disappeared from the registry also. I must now decide if I want to put it back or go to another program like the one provided by my sbcyahoo ISP.

I wonder how Audubon’s subscribers made payment? Was it hard money cash prepaid? This was a bit before Master Card, Visa, Am Express et al were available. Also I wonder if Louis XVIII, and the Duc d' Orleans and other Royals really paid at all. They were notorious for cutting in the free lunch line.

When Audubon was in England in 1826 the reigning King was George IV, the eldest son of George III. Recently while going through the books remaining at my Guadalupe County house I ran across an Interesting biography of his brother, William IV the third son of George III who succeeded to the throne in 1830 when George IV died. I find the darnest things in my library; I don't remember buying it or reading it. In any case my strange interest in this period required that I read it now.

The nine sons of George III were a curious lot who later in the liberal press were referred to as "Victoria's evil uncles." At the age of 13 William was sent to the Royal Navy as a midshipman, a strange environment for a prince. In his training days he served on ships involved in action with the French, Spanish, and American Rebels. He was King in 1833 when the first reform law moved the UK firmly on the course of liberal democracy. The reform measure faced strong opposition in the House of Lords and with the King himself. But the liberal House of Commons finally forced the measure through after the King for political reasons finally agreed to appoint sufficient new peers to carry the measure through the upper house. This forced the Lords to approve the Measure. An unenthusiastic William allowed the reform to become law.

By 1820 it was already obvious that the line of royal succession was near its end: It seems that while the numerous Royal Dukes had no trouble father offspring by their numerous common mistresses, legitimate heirs from their royal wives just didn’t happen. By 1820 during George IV’s reign something of a contest ensued among the Royal Dukes to produce a legitimate heir, a contest that was won by Edward, the Duke of Kent in 1820 with the birth of Victoria. As the proud father put it at the time, “it looks like I won the lottery.” And so he did as in 1837 when William died the Victorian Age began.

We are near the end of reading Middlemarch, which takes place during William's reign (although written during Victoria's). The reform act is looming in the background dividing the townspeople. The economy seems to be slow -- businessmen are suffering. But the big change is the building of the railroad and the controversy surrounding it.

Remind me again what birds were in Audubon's second volume?

Regarding Railroad building in the UK When I read the "1826 Journal" account of Audubon's two day stage trip from Manchester to Edinburgh, I realized that just a few years later that trip would have been by rail. The 1830's & 40's were the time of the railroadization of the larger British island. It was also a period of rapid construction of RR's throughout the eastern U.S. Remember, Thoreau mentioned a RR near his cabin at Walden. In England one of the great RR builders was an ex American engineer, Isambard Kingdom Brunell. His father had worked with Robert Fulton in N.Y. in developing the steamboat, but had returned to England where there was greater professional engineering opportunity. During the 1830's and 40's he was involved in Railroad building particularly their bridges and tunnels. He also was the designer and builder of the Great Eastern Steamship, the forerunner of the modern luxury liner.

Thanks for the link to Brunel. Very interesting. Rhodes mentioned in the Audubon biography that the Thames River tunnel was being built when Audubon was in England.

Another engineering marvel built in that era was the Erie Canal, begun in 1817 and completed in 1825, called by some "the 8th wonder of the world." Audubon traveled on the Erie Canal up to Buffalo, I believe it was, as far as it had been completed at the time of his trip. The canal was enlarged between 1836 and 1862, and enlarged again between 1903 and 1918.

http://www.eriecanal.org/

A fascinating book about the building of the Erie Canal is Wedding of the Waters: The Erie Canal and the Making of a Great Nation by Peter L. Bernstein.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393052338/103-3991984-9125443?v=glance&n=283155

Marni

I have been thinking about why Audubon returned to America after being away for so long. I am thinking JJA returned to do more bird drawings and redo some he had already drawn and colored. I think he also wanted to get as close as possible to his family. Later, they could return together, as a family, to Europe.

Yes, Hats, Audubon finally made the decision to go back to America. He realized finally that Lucy was not coming to Europe with the boys and he was going to have to get them. Also, Audubon had to paint some more birds to make his book complete. He wanted to collect another 100 species. Which reason was more important to him, I wonder??!!

Before he made the decision to return to American, Audubon had written to Lucy that it would be better for them to separate so she could remarry and he would "spend the rest of his days miserably alone."

Lucy had written in one letter to Victor: “I sometimes consider why I wish any longer to live. All my best days are over and yourself and John will soon be able I trust to provide for yourselves.” She sounds so depressed! She must be tired of the great burden placed on her shoulders. All the work plus the difficulty of collecting money due her, just the same trouble her husband had had. Also, I think Lucy was feeling old, was nervous about encroaching old age and was uncomfortable about her appearance. She reported that she was grey, thinner, and has no teeth left. It has now been 3 years since she has seen her husband. What a long time! Nicholas Berthoud and Will Bakewell had stopped corresponding with Audubon, apparently disgusted with him for leaving his family for so long and forcing Lucy to support them.

Audubon was nervous to leave Britain because he was afraid he would lose his subscribers if he left - that they might think he was abandoning his project. He asked Lucy in a letter to return to England with him when he went back. “If a ‘no’ comes, I never will put the question again and we probably never will meet again.”

Audubon returned to America in May, 1829, bringing his book (with the first 50 plates) to exhibit in America. He went off hunting for birds for some time rather than heading immediately for his family. He didn't head off towards Louisville to his sons until November and he didn't get to Lucy until Nov. 17, 1829. Finally, the family was reunited and Lucy agreed to go back to Europe with Audubon.

Marni

Audubon spent a great deal of time hunting for and collecting skins of birds and live birds and animals to send back to British and Continental museums which paid well for them. This was an age when people hungered for knowledge of the natural world they did not know, and there were no movies or photographs yet to see far off worlds.

"The nineteenth century was of course the heroic age for voyages of scientific discovery, as the Renaissance had been for those of geograhic," says William Irvine in Apes, Angels, and Victorians. "....A series of great men - Humboldt, Darwin, Hooker, Huxley, Wallace, and Haeckel - had embarked on seas of ripe and boundless possiblity, where every ability and strength won a fabulous reward."

The British survey ship H.M.S. Beagle circumnavigated the globe in 1831-1836, carrying naturalist Charles Darwin who studied a rich variety of geological features, fossils and living organisms, and met a wide range of people, both native and colonial. He methodically collected an enormous number of specimens, many of them new to science, and began to formulate the theories later published in his landmark study of evolution, The Origin of Species (1859).

http://www.athenapub.com/darwin1.htm

http://www.literature.org/authors/darwin-charles/the-voyage-of-the-beagle/

The U.S. Exploring Expedition 1838 to 1842 with 6 vessels and a crew of hundreds "set out to map the entire Pacific Ocean and ended up naming the newly discovered continent of Antarctica, conducting path-breaking scientific research, and collecting what would become the foundation of the Smithsonian Institution." (See the fascinating saga Sea of Glory: America's Voyage of Discovery by Nathaniel Philbrick.)

http://www.sil.si.edu/digitalcollections/usexex/

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/067003231X/103-3991984-9125443?v=glance&n=283155

The frigate H.M.S. Rattlesnake traveled on an intricate surveying mission from 1846 to 1849 around northern Australia, carrying surgeon and naturalist Thomas Henry Huxley and naturalist John MacGillivray. They studied and collected mollusks, coral, fish, jellyfish, and other sea creatures, and charted the Great Barrier Reef, searched for a passage through the Torres Straits to India, surveyed the Inner Passage to New Guinea and Cape Yorke, and cruised the Coral Sea.

http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/ebindshow.pl?doc=pxc281/a487;seq=1

Marni

I get more infuriated the more i read about his behavior to her, i hope he makes it up to her at some point. Hooray for Nicholas and Will. LOL.......jean

I had never heard of this ship and it seemed such an unlikely name for a RN Frigate but there surely was such a mid 19th century ship engaged in Pacific survey and discovery. Click Here More is available through a Google search on the ship's name.

I suppose Lucy felt deserted by JJ. That attitude would explain the apparent lack of letters from her received by JJ in England. In contrast he wrote to her nearly every] day. The entries in the "1826 Journal" are largely excerpts from letters JJ wrote to her. I don’t think we should blame Lucy too much. Though as has been pointed out there is precedent for JJ's solo departures in such well known Americans as John Adams, Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, such action was not known to contemporary women in the trans Appalachia west. She just felt alone and deserted.

I was surprised that JJ mentioned a separation. Was this supposed to be a shock that would send her hurrying to Europe? Obviously JJ did not want a separation, a fact indicated by his subsequent return to America.

I did feel surprised when JJA mentioned a separation. I think he wanted to really upset Lucy. Maybe he thought such a threat would make her quicker to bend under his will.

I am anxious to see how the relationship goes after JJA and Lucy are together again in the same house. Will more feathers fly? Will they just become lovey dovey?

I think one of you already mentioned the fact that Lucy had no way of understanding how famous JJA had become in Europe. In America Artists were not yet receiving that type of recognition. Lucy had no way of knowing that in Europe she might face the same hardships she had faced in Henderson.

Besides, I can't blame her for wanting to collect the money owed her. Teaching is not easy. Why should Lucy give what she had earned away? In the same way, JJA wanted what his subscribers owed him, Lucy wanted what her students' parents owed her.

"Will more feathers fly? Will they just become lovey dovey?"

I love that!! Hahaha

Harold: If you go through the whole H.M.S. Rattlesnake site that I provided with a link in post #543, you see some wonderful paintings from the Rattlesnake's cruise.

Here's a link directly to all of the paintings. Just click on "Display all thumbnails OK button" in bottom right hand corner.

http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/ebindshow.pl?doc=pxc281/a487;thumbs=1

Marni

I thought it was interesting the way Audubon compared the lack of trees in England to the trees in America. He felt England had been denuded, which it had - one of the reasons so many trees had been cut down was for ship building. Audubon envisioned the same thing was probably going to happen in America due to encroaching settlement and industrialization.

I have seen beautiful landscapes of England with its gentle hills. It doesn't seem to have many trees. But I never had really thought of England being covered densely with trees at one time. I guess it was. They're gone. Audubon noticed the change when he returned to America. He could see the devasation to the land and resulting declines in bird populations.

Lucy, worrying about getting old, is wondering how they will take care of themselves financially. Audubon is hoping he can continue to work in good health as he gets older. No Social Security in those days. People had to inherit or fend for themselves.

It must have been quite frightening for people living on the edge. There were so many diseases and dangers. Another yellow fever epidemic was raging when Audubon went back to America. When Audubon and Lucy sailed back in Liverpool in April 1830, they left the boys in America because they were concerned about shipwrecks. One in six ships were lost at sea on voyages.

When the Audubons arrived in Liverpool, Lucy's sister Ann was very sick with episodic pelvic inflammation from the medical practice during the birth of her only child. (I don't believe doctors used sterile surgical tools at that time or washed their hands with any regularity when they moved from patient to patient. It was common for doctors to pass disease from one patient to another.) Ann was treated for her inflammation with leeches to her head.

In 1832, there was a worldwide pandemic of cholera. 1t was reported that 100 people were dying daily in New York.

You just never knew how the future would affect your health - not that we know so much today, for that matter, but at least many of us can take steps to purchase health insurance and receive Medicare benefits at age 65.

One thing for sure, the JJ/Lucy relationship was not in good repair in the fall of 1828 while JJ was pursuing his business in France, and after yielding only 14 additional subscription commitments it was involving people who JJ feared might reveal details of his illegitimate birth. JJ feared if this story became public it would cause cancellation of other subscriptions. “Lucy,” he wrote, “my blood was congealed in my veins”. So intense was his phobia of this revelation, that at the end of Oct he returned to England.

Though Lucy finally indicated in a Jan 1829 letter to their son Victor that she might after concluding her school teaching commitments go to Europe, this seemed too indefinite to JJ who finally caved in a letter to her Jan 20, 1829 saying that he would leave England for America about April 1st to join her in Louisiana. Pursuant to this decision he departed April 1, on the packet ship for New York that landed him there May5th after a 35 day transit.

If Lucy believed her husband would quickly come to Louisiana she was soon disappointed. It was first things first for JJ who paused in the area of Camden NJ to acquire additional bird skins and pictures necessary to complete his publication. It was the beginning of winter 1829 before JJ crossed the Mountains to Pittsburgh where he took a steamboat down river, and it was Nov 17 before he arrived in Bayou Sarah to see Lucy. In March 1830 the couple traveled to Washington where they were received by congress and President Andrew Jackson. On April 2nd they departed from New York to return to England.

During JJ's Lifetime he did quite a bit of travel by sailing ship, yet he seems to have remained unusually susceptible to seasickness. Most people seem more capable of adapting even those whose sea travel is spaced several years apart. I suppose I was lucky and was never violently seasick until once on a small, flat-bottomed LCI leaving Ulithi atoll in the face of an unusually strong trade winds, It really got me good. Another time out or Port Isabela on the Texas Coast after eating a half dozen Crispy Cream doenuts I again came close but was saved by ingesting a couple of liquid dramines doses in the form of bud lites.

Was anyone else dissatisfied with the deteriorating writing quality of some of the later chapters of the Rhodes book? I am critical of the writing in Chapter 22 and others that seems to make too much use of many long letter quotations pasted together with too little original authored cement.

Ella and I have just announced our proposed David McCullough, “1776” discussion beginning Jan 2nd. Of course any of you interested in joining us will be particularly welcome,

Well, Audubon was right to be concerned that in his absence from England, something about his Birds might go awry. Some subscribers had cancelled while he was in the States because they weren’t happy with the plates created by Havell’s staff. Apparently, there were inconsistencies of engraving and coloring. (Some subscribers must have compared their prints with each other.) It shocked Audubon. It put his reputation at risk. He was able to persuade people to resubscribe and he found new subscribers. His words with Havell had an impact and quality improved.

Audubon also found that some subscribers were in arrears. JJA had to paint pictures to sell in order to pay Havell. He was not able to set aside a lot of money. At this point, he was bringing in little more than what it took to produce the book. Publishing was up to plate 95 and Audubon had 130 subscribers.

Subscribers in France had to contend with yet another revolution. Audubon's acquaintenance, the duc d'Orleans, overthrew King Charles X in 1830.

Audubon's reputation was not tarnished from the publishing problems. In fact, he was elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of London, the most prestigious intellectual association in Britain. Ben Franklin was the only other American so honored. Quite exciting!!

Oh, I just noticed something interesting! Audubon searched for a collaborator with a background in anatomy and systematics to help him write his bird biographies. He hooked up with William MacGillivray, a Scottish naturalist and ornithologist, and they wrote the biographies together.

I knew the name MacGillivray was familiar! Turns out William was the father of naturalist John MacGillivray, who cruised with Thomas Huxley on the H.M.S. Rattlesnake voyage of discovery mentioned in my post #543!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_MacGillivray

Definition of Systematics: Systematics

These bird biographies were to be “letterpress” companion volumes to The Birds of America and were to include an introduction and letters addressed to the reader referring to the 100 plates forming the first volume. They would include local descriptions of the country, adventures, anecdotes, trees, flowers, reptiles, fish, insects, etc. and would be "pleasing and instructive."

Marni

I had renewed my book once at the library, so i had to take it back and it has to be on the shelf for 48 hours before i can take it out again. I'll be back in the swing tomorrow.....jean

or, as an adjunct i could take it out for as long as i like. I've done that w/ Jesus/Harvard and I'll try to get the "1776" book from there........jean

I've been listening to KUT this evening, have had about 3 hours of great blues. Thank you for recommending that station, i've had a swinging evening.......jean

I never knew JJA studied and drew the eggs of birds. In my book there is a picture of some of the eggs. The eggs of birds are as fascinating as the birds! Did Audubon color any of the eggs? Did he just do black and white sketches of the eggs?

I think Jean or JoanK mentioned the robin's blue eggs.

I FOUND MY BOOK!!!!HUZZAH. It had somehow gotten on the bottom of a stack of books in a corner where I don't go. I've no idea how.

Since I couldn't read it all at this point, I started reading the chapter where JJA returns to America. (one chapter off -- I'll read the next one today if I don't get buried in the Latin subjunctive).

As for JJA's slowness in joining Lucy once he got here, I have to defend him. Birds lives move to the rhythm of the cycle of the year, and if you work with birds, your life moves to that cycle too. Many birds (including many that are mentioned in this chapter) migrate: they leave in late Summer/early Fall for central or South America and don't return until Spring. If Audubon wants to collect or paint them, he has to finish it in the Summer. If he visits Lucy first, it will be too late. In fact, he rejoins her just about at the time that the Fall migration is over.

The letters are a measure of how little understanding JJA and Lucy have of each other. After being married to him so long, Lucy doesn't realize this, and it doesn't seem to occur to JJA to tell her (he does tell his son). He just assumes she can drop everything and join her. After years of being married to a teacher, he doesn't understand that a teacher's life moves to the rhythm of the school year (or just doesn't care -- her work is outside his sphere of interest, and so not important).

It looks from what you say about their return that Lucy had it about right in mistrusting JJA's ability to support the family. I fear for there future relationship. His head is with his birds, his book, and romantic ideas of love. Her's is with years of struggling to make ends meet and take care of the children. I hope they find common ground, but somehow I doubt it.

In this chapter, Audubon tells of drawing the fish hawk (or Osprey), the picture that is on the front cover and spine of the book.

OSPREY

Rhodes says "Audubon produced one of his finest drawings at Great Egg Harbor, his iconic fish hawk (osprey) seen from the bird's own eye level as if the viewer were flying alongside. .. The big intent predator, two feet long from beak to tail, with nearly a five foot wingspan, carries a weakfish as iridescent as a trout and as long as the bird itself, and the fish's gaping mouth repeats the beak of the bird opened in a cry" (p. 327).

This is a magnificent bird, about the size of a Bald Eagle. Nearby to me in the Chesapeake bay, there are many places where naturalists have installed poles and stands in shallow water which ospreys use to nest. They can be easily watched from shore. To see them catch a fish is amazing, as Audubon pointed out. Like a pelican, but much bigger and faster, they hover, then plunge head down in the water faster than the eye can follow, and emerge with the fish, as shown.

Wow! Thanks, JoanK. That is a wonderful painting.

Glancing through the chapter when JJA was in France, i came upon a mystery bird. Audubon met a French naturalist named Cuvier and told Cuvier that he had named a warbler after him. Rhodes said it was a mystery bird, not a warbler, probably a ruby crowned kinglet. What do you think? Here is Audubon's painting:

MYSTERY BIRD

Back in a minute with a ruby crowned kinglet.

Back. Here are a number of pictures, including comparing the Ruby-crowned to the Golden Crowned kinglet (keep scrolling down -- there are a bunch of pictures):

RUBY CROWNED KINGLET

What do you all think?

Marni is right when she mentioned in message 555 the likelihood of major quality differences in the finished product, the prints actually sent to subscribers. I do not recall reading if more than a single colorist was used to apply by hand the colors. There would certainly be visible difference in individual techniques and even differences between copies by a single colorist would occur depending on the momentary disposition and mood of the individual. Particularly with JJ unavailable (in France or America for over a year), underlings might easily pass inferior copies.

Joan K For the Defense. You voiced a strong defense argument in JJ’s favor in your message #561, To complete his work JJ had a necessary]y task to perform. It had to be done when the birds were available which was the summer. JJ was doing what he had to do and that required deferring his going to Louisiana until fall. Lucy blind to the necessity just didn’t understand the necessity of the situation.

Yes Jean last night it was Blues Monday on KUT. Darn, I watched a basketball game instead (The Spurs won of course) Tonight on KUT there will be Jazz, but I will be caroling with my group on a barge floating along the River walk in downtown San Antonio. Yes they let me come along for the ride after a made a written (Notarized) promise to keep my mouth shut. There will be dinner at a popular Riverwalk barbecue eatery.

Jean and Harold: You surely are Blues fans! My husband is, too. I spent several years collecting Blues tracks to add to his extensive collection. I found wonderful recordings of real oldies - Blind Lemon Jefferson, Bessie Smith, Blind Willie Johnson, Furry Lewis, Arthur Big Boy Crudup, Big Bill Broonzy, Robert Johnson, Roosevelt Sykes, Victoria Spivey, Otha Turner, Robert Nighthawk, T-Bone Walker, Rufus Thomas, Elmore James, J.B. Lenoir, Little Junior Parker....the list just goes on and on.

I made MP3 CDs which hold a good 9 days of listening so we can just pop the disk into the MP3 player in the car or in the house and let it go.

Hats: It makes sense that Audubon studied, drew, and made notes about birds' eggs since he was so methodical in his collections and so determined in his hunting efforts.

-------------------------------------

JoanK: YOU FOUND YOUR BOOK!!! YAY!!! Sounds like you have so many books that you're going to turn into an Umberto Eco!

I love the way you describe both Audubon and Lucy as "moving to rhythms" that neither understood about the other.

I also love your description of ospreys. They really are such magnificent birds. I saw an osprey hovering over the water looking for fish only once. I was lounging on the rocks at the mouth of the Thames River at Eastern Point in Groton, CT. Someone shouted to look at the osprey. And there it was above hovering perfectly still for about 3 minutes high over the water with its giant wings spread out and its huge legs stretched down. It never did spot any prey and finally flew off. But, what a sight! The only other osprey I've seen have been in nests built on top of man-made poles in the marshes of the Connecticut River, set up by the Dept. of Environmental Protection where the osprey lay eggs and watch over their growing babies.

----------------------------

I think the mystery bird does look exactly like your pictures of the ruby crowned kinglet. Thanks for the pictures and info!

Marni

Harold: Have fun on the barge caroling. Wow, that sounds like fun!

HAROLD: that sounds like a magnificent evening. I'd like to know how you carol with your mouth closed, though.

Of course your Spurs won. Must be nice to root for a winning team. Here in DC, we don't get much experience with that.

I think it's wonderful JJA drew and sketched the eggs. I know there are so many colors and sizes of eggs. The picture in the book just caught my interest. It does definitely make sense that JJA should draw the eggs.

reminded me of a Columbus day week-end we spent at the Osprey Inn in Rock Hill, Maryland, two years ago w/ good friends. They had been going for a couple years to the jazz festival in Chestertown and invited us to go w/ them. If you'd ever like a nice quiet get-away, the Osprey Inn has about 10 rooms, on an inlet from the Chesapeake, a marina and lovely country.

Harold, i'd rather be w/ you on the barge singing carols and then eating bbq then here in snowy, cold NJ tonight, even if i get to listen to jazz.

I'm off to get my book back from the library......jean

My husband has a lot of old do-op music on tapes and his new car doesn't have a tape player, so i'm trying to figure out the best way to put them on disk for him. If it's a long story you can send me an e-mail, so we don't disrupt the discussion. Thanks......jean

I like do-op songs, barbecue, caroling and Jazz too. What a good combination in one way or another.

Jean: I don't know that you can move music from tapes to disc. For discs the music has to be in digital format - in files. I think the tapes would have to be recorded into digital file format.

I either download music files from the internet in MP3 file format onto my PC, or upload them onto my PC from my CDs, where music is already in CD audio file format and can be transformed into MP3 file format during the upload.

Once songs are in MP3 file format, I burn them onto blank CDs using my burner drive and software. I can fit about 180 soundtracks onto 1 MP3 CD. I can only fit about 15 soundtracks on a regular CD, in CD audio file format because they are larger files.

You need an MP3 player to play MP3 files. They don't work on a regular CD player. Many music players these days come as combination MP3/CD players. I have adaptors I use in my car because my car plays only regular CDs. With the adaptor, they can also play MP3s.

This probably doesn't make a lot of sense!!! I had to learn how to do it!!!

Marni

I have done a little research and I know about the transfer to digital. I was considering getting a piece of equipment for my husband for Christmas that would do that, but then I tho't maybe an mp3 player may be the better way to go. I have, thru SN and the internet, seen ways you can convert records or tapes to the digital. Thanks for you info......jean

My husband and I love old do-op music, too!! My husband still has all of his old 45 records. But we bought a big bunch of "oldies but goldies" on CDs so we could play them on our stereo.

We love music - pretty much all kinds of music - except rap. I have a collection of 600 CDs. I bought 2 music changers to make it easier to play them. One changer holds 200 CDs and the other holds 400 CDs. They're like jukeboxes. You just select what you want to play and lay it. You can program the changers to play certain music.

I have my collections of rock 'n roll in one and my collections of blues, jazz, Christmas music, classical, world music (Putumayo collections), movie soundtracks, and country and western in the other.

I just love music! My family always played music and sang together and we played musical instruments. (I played piano.) Music adds so much to life!!

Marni

Jean: If you find the equipment to transform your records to digital, could you let me know what it is. I would love to do that with our records! I am able to record from records onto tapes with my stereo system, but that's it.

Thanks!!

but Marni, have you read my recommendations on Yahoo music and Accuradio music on-line? Rather than repeat it for everybody, I'll send you an e-mail, if you haven't seen them. I should get paid by them, or buy stock in them, I tell everybody about them, I love them so. I have one of them on every time i'm on the computer.Those plus KPLU.org and now Harold has turned me on to KUT.org. I'm in MUSIC HOG HEAVEN!!! ....jean

Yes, Jean, I saw your post about that. I think I have the same thing. I get to a music-only radio station through an icon in Windows XP. I don't remember what it's called. I can set it up to play the music I enjoy. It's terrific! Thanks!

Marni

My brush this evening with an early Xmas celebration (some dozen and a half of us from the Apartment building singing carols from a boat along the downtown Riverwalk followed by dinner at a popular Riverwalk Cafe) led me to think of Audubon’s Xmas celebration 179 years Ago. His time was the time when Xmas was being established as a secular time for merriment rather than a religious celebration as it mostly was during earlier times.

In the 1826 Journal I find that JJ in Edinburgh had waited until Xmas eve to do his Xmas Shopping; that was the purchase of a broach for Lucy costing 7 guineas that he immediately sent to her by mail. In the journal he said, “if in return my Christmas gift had been a kiss from thy sweet lips, how happy I should be at this moment.” He should have sent this as a note with the gift; perhaps he did?

Earlier that morning JJ had written to the president and members of the Royal Institution presenting them his large wild turkey painting. The day's work brought on a “very heavy headache,” but after a early bedtime he awoke before dawn to begin Xmas day that included dinner at Mr Lizars Later he wrote a letter to Captain Basil Hall, the RN Captain who had introduced him to Sir Walter Scott, and closed his diary entry for the day remarking.” I’m glad its over,” a concluding sentiment, perhals not uncommon after a Christmas today

Speaking of Sir Walter Scott, I was interested to read last night that Charles Darwin, like Audubon, also was in awe of Scott. I'm reading Apes, Angels, and Victorians by William Irvine. Irvine says: "He [Darwin] was deeply pleased at being recognized by the Royal Society of Edinburgh, for as a young medical student he had been taken to a meeting....and had seen in the chair the famous man whose novels, then and in later life, he had read over and over again."

Irvine quotes from Darwin: "Sir Walter Scott [sat] in the chair as President, and he apologised to the meeting as not feeling fitted for such a position. I looked at him and at the whole scene with some awe and reverence...If I had been told at that time that I should one day have been thus honoured, I declare that I should have thought it as ridiculous and improbable, as if I had been told that I should be elected King of England."

I have never read a book by Sir Walter Scott. I tried Ivanhoe and it was very cumbersome. Maybe I should try again. Maybe one of his novels could be a good SeniorNet discussion.???? Scott certainly had loyal awe-struck fans in the 19th century.

Marni

Audubon and various members of his family do some Atlantic-hopping in this section of our book. On an expedition to Florida and again on an expedition to Texas, Audubon's group received free travel accommodations with the U.S. Revenue Service, ordered by the U.S. Department of the Treasury. I had become interested in the U.S. Revenue Service when I read about it in a biography of Alexander Hamilton. It sounded like the Coast Guard. (I grew up in New London, CT, where the U.S. Coast Guard Academy is located.) Well, no wonder!

“The United States Revenue Cutter Service was established by Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton in 1790 as an armed maritime law enforcement service. Throughout its entire existence the Revenue Cutter Service operated under the authority of the United States Department of the Treasury. In 1915 the Service merged with the Lifesaving Service to form the United States Coast Guard.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_Cutter_Service

It sounds peculiar that this type of service would be placed under the Treasury Dept. But Hamilton, as the first Secretary of the Treasury, was responsible to collect taxes. One of the few taxes Congress allowed the federal govt. to levy at that time was tax on imports. Hamilton wanted to be sure the money was collected, so he established the U.S. Revenue Service to monitor ports of entry. He was also responsible for many of the lighthouses that were built at ports.

I noticed in reading the link info above that the U.S. Cutter Eagle played an important role in the War of 1812. Today, the U.S. Coast Guard Academy training ship is named the Eagle.

"The Eagle is a three-masted sailing Barque with 21,350 square feet of sail. It is homeported at the CG Academy, New London, Connecticut. It is the only active (operational) commissioned sailing vessel in the U.S. maritime services...

The Eagle bears a name that goes back to the early history of the United States' oldest contiunous seagoing service. The first Eagle was commissioned in 1792, just two years after the formation of the Revenue Marine, the forerunner of today's Coast Guard.

Today's Eagle, the seventh in a long line of proud cutters to bear the name, was built in 1936 by the Blohm & Voss Shipyard, Hamburg, Germany, as a training vessel for German Naval Cadets. It was commissioned Horst Wessel and following World War II was taken as a war prize by the United States."

http://www.uscg.mil/datasheet/wixtrain.htm

http://www.cga.edu/eagle/eagle.htm

Marni

When Audubon hunted and collected in Florida, his party met with a certain hostility from a Spanish resident, but was welcomed by an American. Later, Audubon viewed Native Americans forced out of Florida and into the west following the Seminole War (1834-1842) (beginning of the Trail of Tears).

Here's a bit of Florida history:

“The history of Florida during the first Spanish administration (1565-1763) centres round St. Augustine, and is rather of religious than political importance. English buccaneers under Drake in 1586 and again under Davis in 1665 plundered and sacked the town. Distrust and hostility usually prevailed between the Spanish colonies and their northern English neighbours. Governor Moore of South Carolina made an unsuccessful attempt in 1702 to capture St. Augustine, and in 1704 laid waste the country of the civilized Apalachee. Governor Oglethorpe of Georgia invaded Florida in 1740, besieging St. Augustine with a large force but was repulsed by the Spanish Governor Monteano and forced to retreat.

Spain ceded Florida to England in 1763. During the English period great efforts were made to populate the country and develop its resources, but religion suffered irreparably. During the second Spanish occupation (1783-1821) some unimportant military operations took place in West Florida under General Andrew Jackson in 1814 and 1818. In consequence of the treaty of 1819, the Americans took possession of Florida in 1821. In 1822 Florida became a territory of the United States, William P. Duval being appointed first governor. The following year Tallahassee was selected as the new capital. The refusal of the warlike Seminoles to repair to reservations resulted in the long, costly, and discreditable Indian War (1835-42), which came to an end in the capture by treachery of Osceola. Florida was admitted to Statehood in 1845.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06115b.htm

Marni

Last year Ella and I led a discussion of the Mark Perry story of the friendship relationship between General/President Ulysses S. Grant and the writer Mark Twain (Click Here for the discussion archive. In Twain’s view it was the extreme romanticism of Sir Walter Scott that was responsible for our Civil War. In the words of Perry from his book." Grant & Twain:"

At the root of it all (the seeds that had led to the civil war) was the southern tradition of fake gentility, the terrible fraud of propriety that men like ‘General Darnell’ took pride in and which led to their murderous hatreds. Behind it all was the ‘maudlin Middle-Age romanticism’ of Sir Walter Scott, whose books adorned the shelves of southern homes and who ‘made every gentleman in the South a Major or a Colonel or a General or a Judge, before the war, and it was he also that made these gentlemen value these bogus decorations. For it was he that created rank and caste down there, and also reverence for rank and caste, and pride and pleasure in them.

Most of us in last year’s discussion did not agree with this extreme interpretation Scott was a popular writer everywhere the English Language was understood. His novels were in the northern homes as well as southern homes. Scott’s writing remained popular through much of the 20th century and remain so even today. Historians today look to many causes for our Civil War including a maze of political, economic and other social factors, but not Sir Walter Scott’s romanticism.

To blame the Civil War on a writer of novels is very extreme, I think. Then again, what did Lincoln say to or about Harriet Beecher Stowe? Didn't Lincoln feel that HBS, the little lady, had caused the Civil War or something like that?

Harold, Marni, Joank or Jean, do you know the quote, I'm referring to?

I'm sorry to have missed that discussion. I do read the archives. Thank you for the link to the book. I would like to read about the relationship between Grant and Twain.

By the way, I would love to read a novel by Sir Walter Scott.

When Stowe met President Lincoln in 1862, he is said to have exclaimed, "So you are the little woman who wrote the book that started this great war!"

So how many novelists did cause the war?

That was very interesting info about Twain and Harriet Beecher Stowe. Did you know they lived right next door to each other in Hartford, CT for many years? Their homes, of course, are huge tourist attractions in Hartford. We have taken friends there for tours when they come to visit. Mark Twain's house is very unusual. Supposedly, it was built to look like a steamboat.

http://www.marktwainhouse.org/

http://www.harrietbeecherstowecenter.org/life/#mark

Marni

Marni, no I did not know that Stowe and Twain lived next door to each one another. That is very interesting. Thank you for the links.

Marni the close proximity of the Twain and Beecher residences in the years after the Civil war was noted in the “Grant & Twain” book and some details of the two families interface as neighbors did emerge. Right now however the details do not come to mind, how quickly one forgets.

Hats the book makes good interesting reading but I do feel that the way he told his story plot that essentially gave the Mississippi River a character’s role in the story was a bit far fetch. It seemed to me after reflection a curiously manufactured technique for the purpose of creating a successful book. None the less I was glad to have been involved in its discussion

I found it interesting that Lucy rode on an early passenger elevator when she and Audubon were traveling through Britain. I was wondering what elevators were like at that time, remembering something about Otis inventing or improving the elevator. I found this out:

"From ancient times through the Middle Ages, and into the 13th century, man or animal power was the driving force behind hoisting devices. In ancient Greece, Archimedes developed an improved lifting device operated by ropes and pulleys, in which the hoisting ropes were coiled around a winding drum by a capstan and levers. By A.D. 80, gladiators and wild animals rode crude elevators up to the arena level of the Roman Coliseum.

Medieval records contain numerous drawings of hoists lifting men and supplies to isolated locations. Among the most famous is the hoist at the monastery of St. Barlaam in Greece. The monastery stood on a pinnacle approximately (200 ft) above the ground. Its hoist, which employed a basket or cargo net, was the only means up or down.

The first elevator designed for a passemger was built in 1743 for King Louis XV at his palace in France. The one-person contraption went up only one floor, from the first to the second. Known as the "Flying Chair," it was on the outside of the building, and was entered by the king via his balcony. The mechanism consisted of a carefully balanced arrangement of weights and pulleys hanging inside a chimney. Men stationed inside the chimney then raised or lowered the Flying Chair at the king's command.

By 1850 steam and hydraulic elevators had been introduced, but it was in 1852 that the landmark event in elevator history occurred: the invention of the world's first safety elevator by Elisha Graves Otis. The first passenger elevator was installed by Otis in New York in 1857. After Otis' death in 1861, his sons, Charles and Norton, built on his heritage, creating Otis Brothers & Co. in 1867. By 1873 over 2,000 Otis elevators were in use in office buildings, hotels and department stores across America, and five years later the first Otis hydraulic passenger elevator was installed. The Era of the Skyscraper followed.... and in 1889 Otis revealed the first successful direct-connected geared electric elevator machines."

http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/story049.htm

The Louis XV elevator reminded me of our recent trip to Seattle when we went up the Space Needle in a partially glass elevator on the outside of the Needle. It was quite an experience! My husband doesn't like heights!

Marni

Also, on their travels through Britain, Lucy and Audubon attended the Manchester ceremony launching the Liverpool & Manchester Railway powered by Stephenson’s Rocket.

I didn't know what Stephenson’s Rocket was. Here's a picture of it:

http://www.webcom.com/~trw/London/59473610.html

Marni

In 1831, when Audubon and party headed south toward Florida following the bird migration to find new birds, in Charleston Audubon met Rev. John Bachman, Lutheran minister and amateur naturalist and once friend to Alexander Wilson. Bachman had for many years had consumption (tuberculosis) and had gone south for his health. His doctors had not expected him to live long, but Bachman's consumption had now been in remission for years. He had a large house and family, was wealthy by marriage, and had two beautiful teenage daughters, Maria Rebecca (15) and Mary Eliza (14).

Bachman helped Audubon with his work and became his Charleston agent. They became great friends. Eventually, they planned a trip out west to collect and paint quadrupeds (animals that walk on four legs) and collaborated on a book of quadrupeds.

Eventually, the Audubon boys and the two oldest Bachman girls established close relationships. John Woodhouse fell in love with and married Maria, the oldest; and Victor fell in love with and married Eliza.

I loved Audubon's story abou the new heron he found in Indian Key on his Florida expedition in 1832. He sent four of the herons to Bachman; but they attacked his chickens, ducks, killed one of his cats, and attacked his children; Bachman had to put them down.

Can you just picture the herons?!!

On this same trip, Audubon also had the good fortune to witness the sea turtles seeing thousands and thousands of eggs in the sand in the Tortugas. He noticed how the turtles came back to the same place just like birds.

As we near the end of our reading, we see many sad stories about diseases and medical problems which ravaged the Audubon and Bachman families.

On March 16, 1833, nearly 48, Audubon had a stroke; his painting hand was paralyzed for one hour; he couldn’t speak or hold anything for an hour; he remained debilitated. He felt himself growing old and he was melancholy.

Audubon was also severely plagued by "piles" (hemorrhoids) which kept him bedridden at times.

In 1835, when the Audubons were in Britain, Lucy was having dizziness, general weakness, chest pains and heart palpitations. Her illness was so severe that she had to stay in Britain while Audubon and his sons sailed from Portsmouth to New York on Aug. 2, 1836. to find more birds. (They left her there that sick!!) There was a cholera epidemic in Charleston and the city was quarantined so they couldn't visit the Bachmans until October. Lucy wasn't better until 1838.

Bachman’s wife had a painful facial neuralgia.

Then, of course, there was the terrible tuberculosis that Bachman carried and passed on to his children. No cure or effective treatment was available then. TB could lie dormant for years, as in the father. In Nov. 1839, Eliza’s TB reactivated and she began coughing up blood. Maria’s TB reactivated after her 2nd daughter was born that winter. She had sores in her mouth. She couldn’t eat and slowly starved to death. Maria died at age 23 on Sept. 15, 1840. Victor took Eiza to a consumptive colony in Cuba in San Pedro. She did not improve. Eliza died in New York at age 22 on May 25, 1841.

On the day Eliza died Audubon painted the rabbit that became plate #22 in his book The Viviparous Quadrupeds of North America, below. Scroll down to plate 22 and click to enlarge:

http://www.audubonhouse.org/audubon/opquads/opquadpics.cfm

Info about tuberculosis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuberculosis

Marni

The 6th week’s focus questions are now in the heading that will conclude our discussion by the middle of next week. Though the conclusion of Discussion of biographies are basically sad because the character’s death typically concludes the story, JJ’s end seems particularly sad to me because of his relative early ages and the nature of his last illness. However before we reach the end, we have much remaining to discuss about JJ’s remaining years that include the conclusion of his principal bird publication and the extension of his interests beyond birds, to quadrupeds. The latter new interested included the exploration to Flordia already mentioned by Marni , and an expedition to Newfoundland, and the trek up the Missouri to the Mouth of the Yellowstone with Edward Harris and several others in 1843.

The Missouri River trip has been of particular interest to me as I have mentioned before I have just finished reading the Harris Journal telling of this trip. The party of four shot just about anything that crawled, ran, or flew on or over the prairie. They took back many bales of skins and specimens of all types for further study and preservation. Though Harris as author of the Journal never says anything concerning JJ’s physical condition, the fact than he never participated in the horseback buffalo chases attests to the fact that Audubon’s physical condition had declined from his previous peak. Harris was always most respectful of Audubon. Though the other members of the party are referred to routinely by their first names, JJ is always only, Mr. Audubon.

I realize that our South Texas winter pales to insignificance compared to some of yours in the northeast, but it is cold and freezing here too today. We had a wet 30 degree night with a significant ice storm in the hill country north of San Antonio. I am about to leave for an afternoon trip to check on my Guadalupe County place East of SA. It should be all right since I had the Well running. I may drip the hydrants in the house since it will probably be a bit colder tonight and maybe for several days.

Harold, I have begun reading the 'Grant and Twain.' discussion. Thank you for adding the link. I have the book on my library list.

Marni, I loved reading about the Heron. Of course, as usual, I am learning a lot from your links too.

I really hate to end this discussion. We have another week. I am so glad. I ended up liking Audubon as a person. He worked so hard to accomplish his goal of collecting American birds.

just to let you know that i'm here, altho not posting much, busy, busy, busy again w/ company and Christmas shopping. Still enjoying your posts Harold and Marni......jean

I am trying to decorate my Christmas tree. At least, the top is done.

There's still lots more to talk about!! We'll be here for another week!!

I've put up a few Christmas decorations - not too much this year - and started playing my Christmas music yesterday. (The Messiah still stirs me to the bones after all these years.)

I'm going to spend the weekend in New York. Early Sat. morning, my husband and I are heading down with friends - will stay overnight on Staten Island. We'll take the ferry from Staten Island to Ellis Island for a tour - have never been there before - and may visit the Statue of Liberty. That makes me think of the early days of our Audubon discussion when we discussed immigration! I'm going to see if they keep a list of immigrants. My grandmother came from Wales through Ellis Island and I want to see if she is listed anywhere. Then we're going to roam around the Battery area and southern Manhattan. We may end up in Little Italy for dinner Sat. night.

Harold: It sounds cold for Texas! I think we're going to be freezing in NYC and on the ferry. But, I'm brining my warm pea jacket, boots, and my fur-lined "pilot" hat and mittens. Should be fun!!

I'll be checking in later today and tomorrow, though.

Marni

Marni, I'm not going anywhere. I want to hear the last word from you and Harold.

I love 'The Messiah.'

who came thru Ellis Island. If you know ship and date it will make it easier, but not necessary...good luck, that whole trip sounds like fun..jean

Marni, have a wonderful and safe trip. I would love to visit Ellis Island. When in high school, our class did visit the United Nations. That was a hundred years ago. I need to go again. Now I would really appreciate such a trip.

Harold, stay warm. Maybe drink some hot chocolate?

Jean: I'm glad you knew about the list at Ellis Island. I'm going to have to do a bit of research. I wonder if my dad remembers the date. Probably not.

I found out something interesting talking to my dad about this last night. He said my grandmother used the name "Bess" Anthony when she arrived. Her real name was Elizabeth Rees. She never knew that her real first name was Elizabeth (her mother's name) because her parents always called her Bess. She was orphaned at age 12 and just never knew her name. Her father died of diabetes at age 39; her mother fell down the cellar stairs one month later and hurt herself so badly that she died.

After my grandmother died, her daughter (my aunt) discovered her real name was Elizabeth. I guess my grandmother took her uncle's last name instead of her own when she came over to America because she was going to live with him and his wife.

Isn't that sad? Not even knowing her real name and then orphaned so tragically and so young. And to top it off, her new "stepmother" didn't want her and treated her like Cinderella. It brings tears to my eyes thinking about it.

There must be a lot of sad stories about the immigrants who arrived in America.

Marni

Thanks, Hats! We will have a wonderful time! You were lucky to have visited the United Nations. What a special place to visit. I have been there only once shortly after I was married. My husband's best friend was Norwegian. His family was in America because his father was the Norwegian ambassador to the U.N. One weekend, he took us on a private tour of the U.N. building. It was quite exciting. But, of course, we didn't see anyone in session.

We may try to get into the Darwin exhibit at the Museum of Natural History - the most in-depth exhibition ever of Charles Darwin. They even have a replica of the Beagle. It's touring and is stopping only in New York, Chicago, and London, I understand. I thought it wasn't going to arrive until 2006, but just today found out it arrived Nov. 19. It has not been able to pick up any corporate sponsors because of the ongoing hoopla over Darwinism! Isn't that unbelievable!!!

"An exhibition celebrating the life of Charles Darwin has failed to find a corporate sponsor because American companies are anxious not to take sides in the heated debate between scientists and fundamentalist Christians over the theory of evolution."

There's a link to the live Tortoise Cam at the Darwin exhibit. Click on "Tortoise Cam" on the Menu. Then click on the box that says "View LIVE webcam!"

http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/darwin/?src=h_h

I can see a tortoise, but it looks like a rock. I hope it moves eventually!

Marni

Jean I look forward to reading your comments on the Harris Journal. It must have been a wonderful trip. That river steam boat must have been a real experience. Every so often they would have to stop to cut wood for fuel. The other passengers were trappers and Fir company personnel. While they chopped wood Audubon and Harris looked for specimens and hunted game for food.

The history of our trans-Mississippi West tells of an earlier memorable steam boat trip from St Louis to the Mouth of the Yellowstone. A passenger on this 1833 craft was the painter\, George Catlin The boat stopped for several days at the Mandan village in what is now South Dakota. The Harris Journal mentions the Mandans only to note that the few survivors in 1843 were living with the Hiditsas. Smallpox had effective obliterated the Mandans as a nation.

Catlin was painting the native people not birds. At first the Indians were reluctant to allow their pictures to be made fearing the consequence would be their death. Finally after one of the Warriors allowed Catliin to make his picture in his war paint and eagle feathers he was the proudest man in the village. Soon every man wanted his picture made and Catlin had no shortage of subjects.

Before the boat left Catlin also painted a 15 year-old Mandan beauty queen. A month later while at Fort Union word was received that a few days after the painting was made, the girl had sickened and had died. The village was in morning and all the warrior societies had sworn vengence. That fall Catlin returned down river in a canoe with only one French trapper as a companion. They successfully snuck past the Mandan Village in the dead of night on the opposite side..

My copy of Catlin’s “Letters and Notes on the Manners, Customs and Condition of the North American Indians” was reprinted by Dover in 1973. Some or all of these volumes appear to still be in the B&N catalog, Click Here.

It seemed like a wonderful idea to have a place where nations could talk things out instead of just going into conflict!!!!! What happened to that idea??

Some of you may remember Pauline Frederick, one of the first women radio/tv reporters. She was the sister of our minister's wife when i was in h.s and was the NBC reporter at the U.N. She had started as one of Ed Murrow's group in England during the war. I was so excited to meet her. She took us on a tour of the U.N. and it was so beautiful. I decided i might like to be a teacher there. My senior class trip was to NYC and we visited it again. That was in a time when class trips had an educational aspect to them - not going to Disney World!

Marni - in my U.S. History 102 classes I have the students do a lot of oral history, particularly talking to the older members of their families. I ask them to write for me how they got to South Jersey, going back as far as they can in their families history - how? why? their families ended up here. One student who was probably in his 40's came to me one night and said he had talked w/ his aunt who had immigrated w/ his Mother when they were around 20. They came on a ship from Italy. While still in the Italian port city they were robbed of their money. He knew the story up to that point before the class, but his aunt told him, when he had questioned her for his class project, that they had literally prostituted themselves on the boat so they could get food and have money when they arrived. He, of course, was surprised about that part, but he was not judgemental of them. That's the reason i have them do the oral histories, many families never pass on their stories, they think their lives have not been important enough to talk about.

I know i'm behind in the reading, but i had some questions. Do you think they were concerned about handling the arsenic? I don't know yet what JJ died of, but I'm wondering about that.

When they were in Fla he said the storm "emptied out" the river and the swamps and they had to walk thru 3 ft of mud. Can anyone explain how a storm "empties" a waterway instead of filling it up?

I'll have time to read again tomorrow, watching the snow, it makes our yard so beautiful, and making soup and hot chocolate. Marni, I hope it doesn't stop your trip to the City.......jean

Marni and all Click Here for a picture I took in July 1993 of Manhattan and particularly the twin towers of the World Trade Center. Originally the picture taken with my Nikon film camera had my lady friend in the foreground and a fishing boat in the middle with the city in the background. I posted this cropped upper portion of the picture as a Web page a few days after 9/11.

My page text dialog says it was taken from Ellis Island. I'm thinking now it was from Staten Island that I think is closer to Manhattan than Elis Island.

You may have been right in the first instance. I don't think you could get that shot from Staten Is, it's much further south and across from Brooklyn. Ellis Is is right at the southern tip of Manhattan. At least that's my perspective. Do you know that Ellis Is is technically partly in NJ and partly in NY? When Ioccoca was renovating it in 1974-5 there was a big argument about who's territory it was and who was going to get and control the money from the federal gov't. ...nothing is ever simple......jean

Jean: I think that is a wonderful assignment you ask of your class. What a sad story uncovered about the Italian immigrants whose money was stolen.

I wish I had been given that class assignment years ago. I never really was particularly interested in my family roots until recently. I got to talking about roots when my dad was put in a nursing home for awhile last year. During visits, he would talk and talk and I asked and asked. There is still so much I don't know about my family. My dad was always a workaholic and not home much and my mother was a busy housewife with five children. We kids didn't talk much with our parents. I imagine many people lead lives like that and then so much history is lost.

Marni

Regarding the arsenic....It did not sound as though Audubon and party were at all concerned about handling the arsenic - and they handled a lot of it. Of course, these were still the days when doctors treated syphilis with mercury. I'm not sure how much the medical world understood about how sick people could become just by handling or inhaling poisons, that some poisons can be absorbed through the skin or membranes. Arsenic is, however, an ancient poison.

Oh, here is an interesting article about arsenic. They used it as a medicine for syphilis, too. And (oh, gad) listen to this: "In Victorian times, arsenic was mixed with vinegar and chalk and eaten by women to improve the complexion of their faces, making their skin more fair to show they did not work in the fields. Arsenic was also rubbed into the faces and arms of women to improve their complexion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic

Wow!

When you think of it, it wasn't until very recently that we knew much about many metals and the effects on the body. I grew up in a house built in 1860. It was painted with lead paint. My brother used to chew on the railing around the porch when he was little. He ate paint chips. When he was two, he got very very sick and spent a long time in the hospital with lead poisoning. The doctors told my parents that he would never be able to be around lead - for example, would never be able to work in a gas station. (It wasn't until recently that we started using lead-free gas.)

Audubon got what was called dementia. Rhodes said his dementia appeared to be Alzheimer's. I wonder if arsenic poisoning can lead to that?

Marni

I don't know if you've seen in the papers and television that scientists have done research that shows that Beethoven. who was sick most of his life and dies young, died of lead poisoning. They don't know where he got the lead, but it was used in dishes and given in medicine. It's very sad. HUD and others are still trying to get the lead paint out of older buildings, where often poor people with children live.

I'm hoping that one of the results of this discussion is that some of us will decide to make birds more a part of our lives. How to do that best, varies with the time of year.

In the Spring and Fall, many birds migrate. In many parts of the US, one can see birds at that time that are not seen at any other -- birds that may summer to the North of us and winter to the South. That is when many bird lovers take to the outdoors. Your local naturalist or Audubon society can tell you what trips are organized then or places to go on your own.

Many of us have mobility problems that make these trips too difficult. But even around your home, keep your eyes open in April/May and late August/September.

In the summer, birds nest. Many people enjoy putting up nesting boxes. There are several chain stores catering to bird lovers who can help you with advice and equipment. The Wild Bird Center is one -- there are others.

But we are at the start of Winter. For most of us, the best way to enjoy birds in Winter is to feed them. Harold is an expert bird feeder -- I'm hoping before we leave, he will share tips on how to get started. (Hint, hint).

Whether you do any of these things or not, we can all keep our eyes open and enjoy the birds we see. For me, when I see a bird, I always want to know what bird it is. Here are some tips I've learned in 40 years of watching birds: (If you’re not interested, just skip this).

TO WATCH AND IDENTIFY BIRDS:

1. Enjoy birds!!!! They are wonderful, beautiful, and exciting!! If trying to identify them gets in the way of your enjoyment, forget it.

2. But there are lots of ways that being able to identify the birds you see can add to your enjoyment. Once you know it's name, you can find out all about it. The Cornell Ornithology site that we've used so much is a great place, but you have to know the bird's name. Also, you can build a personal history with that bird. Over the years, it becomes more familiar, like an old friend. But you need a name to "hang" those memories on.

3. Get a good bird guide. I like Peterson (be sure to get the one for your part of the country). As a second choice, The Golden Guide "Birds of North America" (the whole country in one volume). You can buy used copies of both of these very cheaply.

I don't recommend the Audubon. Harold will probably disagree there. They tried a different arrangement, by color -- they thought it would be easier. But it's not, for a lot of reasons. Worse, it doesn't teach you how to observe birds. Color is the first thing everyone notices, but it should never be the only thing, or you'll never learn to really know birds.

Whatever guide you get, look at it in your spare time: get used to it's arrangement.

4. When you see a strange bird, STAY WITH THE BIRD. Don't drop everything and go looking for your bird guide. Most birds won't stay around till you find them in the book (I used to think they would die of old age before I found them), and you'll have to learn to depend on your memory. The more you can see, the better. Once you've looked carefully, go for guide (or camera).

5. Accept that at first, you won't succeed in identifying most. Let them go. Or ask for help -- you can always e-mail me or Harold or ask on our "Bird Watching" discussion.

6. If you get Peterson, read his discussion on what to look for. Briefly, here, look at three things: what it looks like, what it's doing, and it's surroundings: probably in that order. But I'll mention the last two first:

Surroundings: when and where did you see it:

When: December 9, early in AM

Where geographically: Maryland, near DC

Where Ecologically: pond, river, ocean, woods, field, lawn etc.

What is it doing: swimming in pond, flying over ocean, over woods, perched on high branch, flitting through tree branches, going up a tree trunk

Is it doing anything unusual: wagging its tail, cocking its tail, going head down down a tree trunk etc.

What does it look like:

SHAPE: does it remind you of a bird you know? Marni and Mabel when they saw a catbird, thought of a mockingbird. They were responding to family resemblance. Not all these hunches will be correct, but they're worth paying attention to.

How big is it, relative to birds you know: “big” doesn’t say any thing, but “bigger than a sparrow, smaller than a robin” says it’s about seven inches.

Shape of the bill if you can see it: can help you eliminate a host of birds immediately

Shape, size of the tail: ditto

Color (at last) be specific: yellow and black could be 30 or more species, yellow with black cap, wings and tail could only be a male goldfinch.

Details: is breast streaked or one color, are there white bars on the wings? (streaks go up and down: bars from side to side), are there any marks: spot on breast, white stripe on tail etc.

7. Keep some record of what you’ve seen. Bird watching is a collector sport. But it’s part of a whole movement in the middle of the last century to learn how to study nature without harming it. Instead of “collecting” (i.e. killing) the birds, we collect records of the birds we’ve seen. This gives us the thrill of adding a new bird to our collection without harming the bird.

Bird lovers can become fanatic list-makers, but even if you’re not interested in that, you may want to keep some written record of birds you see. It can be as simple as a sheet of paper, with “Birds” at the top.You may want to record the species, whether male or female (if you know), the date, where you saw it, any details you want.

Thanks for the tips, Joan! It's been wonderful having you share your knowledge of birds with our discussion group.

Marni

Joan, I too use a Peterson Manuel. It is "A Field Guide to the Birds of Texas" by Roger Tory Peterson. I can't claim credit as a long time observer but for the years from 1995 through 2005 each winter I maintained several feeders outside my Guadalupe County home office windows. I sort of miss it this year, as I must since I have moved to this city senior's center apartment. In 2000 when I got my first digital camera I began photographing them.

I am now on my third camera the Canon S2-IS with its 12X zoom lens. This year my principal activity came last September in New Mexico. I want to try to get shots of the ducks on my pond in Guadalupe County but that is easier said than done since it is a small 3/4 acre surface and the ducks are in the air as I approach long before I am in position for a good shot. Another project might be a trip to the Aransas Wildlife refuge where the Whooping cranes winter and Padre Island along the South Texas coast.

Texas gets its own Peterson and other manual because of the many transit birds from both east and west that winter there or pass through to winter further south.

HAROLD: I know: you are very lucky in where you live. There are birds in Texas that are not found elsewhere in the US.

How wonderful and skilled to be able to get such good photographs!! I'm a complete klutz with a camera (sigh).

I'm sure you will find ways in your new home to continue contact with birds. Mobility problems have severely curtailed my ability to see birds. I can no longer go on field trips, and my home grounds, once a very "birdy" area, have become so built up that the birds don't come in as they used to. But we'll always have our memories. And wonderful films, (like "Winged Migration", "March of the Penguins", some of the films on PBS) nestcams (like those in the "Wildlife" discussion), and photographs taken by you and the others in the "Birdwatching" discussion.

journal, but i've been knitting hats and mittens for Headstart and doing all those other getting ready for Christmas things.

I don't know how to provide a link from my computer so bear w/ me, I'll just type some passages.

The book is "Up the Missouri W/ Audubon: the journal of Edward Harris."

During the Fla trip JJA wrote to Dr Backman of Harris: "He is in facto one of the finest Men of Gods Creation - I wish he were my brother."

Harris is very detailed in his writing and he is humorous.

He writes of the buffalo hunt that Rhodes has JJA touch on briefly:"The Bull did not appear to be much exhausted yet, but he was stiffened by the shot thru the shoulder blade which made it difficult for him to turn. As we approached him he would turn himself slowly round until he faced us, when he would pitch at us w/ great force, then we would jump aside and discharge our 6-barreled pistols at his side w/ little more effect than increasing his fury at every shot. His appearance was now one to inspire terror had we not felt satisfied of our ability to avoid him. I came however very near being caught thru my own imprudence, i placed myself directly in front of him and as he advanced I fired at his head and turned and ran ahead of him, not supposing he was able to overtake me, but casting my head over my shoulder, to my great surprise and consternation i saw Mr. Bull w/in 3 ft of me, w/ his head lowered, in that peculiar knowing position which says plainly 'now I'm into you,stranger.' Not much relishing the taste of Bull's horns, altho it was long past noon and i had not yet broken my fast - i flew the track w/ a desperate spring and the poor beast passed on, unable to turn quick enough to avenge the gross insult i had put upon him. We now came to the wise conclusion that he was a rather dangerous customer to play with.

"...As I raised myself in the stirrups to fire leaning towards him, and just as i was on the point of pulling the trigger, he turned and made a rush at my horse...I was unprepared for the shying of the horse, and ...down i came w/in 20 st of the Bull, who stood looking at me. I was on my feet in an instant, having received no injury and levelling my gun...had the mortification to have both barrels snap! Fortunately for me Mr. Bull not understanding how decidedly the odds of the fight were in his favour left me to recover my wind after a very long chase and a pretty hard fall and was soon out of sight....my noble hunter was waiting for me at a short distance and i caught him w/out difficulty and mounting, walked slowly back to the place of starting."

He took me right to the scene, he is so descriptive. He writes an extensive description of how one loads a gun and shoots while riding after the buffalo and another detailed description of how to butcher a buffalo.

He calls JJ "Mr Audubon" throughout, isn't that interesting considering they were such good friends and about the same age. At the back of the book are detailed lists of what birds and skins, seeds and roots they collected at each stop along the way, and their expenses. The pictures of samples of his hand-writing showed it to be so tiny, I don't know how anyone was able to read it. The book was publsd by the Univ of Oklahoma Press in 1951...jean

JEAN: that's absolutely fascinating. What a good writer he was.

Jean, that is the Ed Harris Journal that I have been mentioning from time to time. I do not recall JJ ever participating in a horseback chase to kill a buffalo. Harris and several members of the party participated. If I remember correctly only one failed to kill a buffalo in this dangerous but effective way. He wounded his animal, but failed in his second effort to make a kill, and later he elected not to participate in further chases.

JJ was 58 years old when he made the Missouri trip in 1843, only 6 years before the onset of his final illness. While he did not participate in a horseback chase of buffalo, he was very active in the hunts for new quadrupeds and birds. I think JJ really enjoyed this ramble.

.

Let me ask everyone to re-read the last paragraph of P-375 and the continuation on P376 about Audubon’s golden eagle picture. Then study the picture (the third picture back from page P-390) and compare it with the picture on the facing page by David, the picture of Napoleon Crossing the Alps.

What is your opinion of this golden eagle picture? Do you agree with the text commentary comparing the eagle picture’s composition as similar to the David picture of Napoleon Crossing the Alps? And does the guy crossing the canyon on the log bridge far below add to the picture?

While for me I guess there is a measure of compositional similarity,I don’t judge it as one of Audubon’s better picture. The eagle is supposedly in flight with the `hare in its talons. Yet its body seems too frozen in space to appear as in flight. It seems it should be crashing to the earth below. The fur-capped mountaineer crossing the chasm on the log bridge is too remote and small to be readily recognized. And most of all the bird's head butted against the left margin in callous disregard of basic composition rules, further obliterates any illusion of it being in flight. Finally, returning to the log bridge, where did the log come from? What an unlikely resource to spring from such a rock bound un-timbered mountain scene.

The composition of the David painting, on the other hand, is much better although it too would be improved by moving the horse back to the right until its tail was against the right margin to allow a bit of additional scene space on the left, the direction of the horses motion.

Perhaps my critical attitude toward this picture stemmed from the weird way in which JJ set about to execute this bird (pp 374 –375). I note that Rhodes felt obliged to write a rather lengthy explanaton excusing Audubons cruel experiment with this bird.

Hi, folks! I'm back from New York and just caught up on your posts. What a wonderful excerpt from Ed Harris' journal. Thanks, Jean! Quite moving to read that Audubon enjoyed Harris' company so much that he wished he were his brother.

I finally visited Ellis Island. We drove down to Staten Island early Sat. morning and took the Staten Island ferry (free - great service) to Battery Park, passing close to the Statue of Liberty on the way. We waited an hour in line to board the Ellis Island/Statue of Liberty ferry - couldn't get tickets to get inside the statue because they have to be reserved - probably a security measure. There was very tight security. It was just like flying. Before boarding the ferry, we had to take off all coats, hats, bags, purses, etc. Everything went through a scanner. Security guards everywhere. A helicopter flies around the statue and Ellis Island 24/7. A Coast Guard gun boat with front and back machine guns of some sort accompanied our ferry to and from Staten Island.

Once aboard the Ellis Island ferry, we did a near-360 degree trip around the Statue of Liberty - wonderful and huge and magnificant close up - and then went to Ellis Island right next to the statue. The buildings have been reconstructed to look like they did between 1892 and 1924 when immigrants checked into New York through Ellis Island. The main building is now a very interesting museum filled with photos, movies, clothing and other immigrant possessions, replicas of dormitory rooms and medical exam rooms, etc. I think I found my grandmother in the listing through internet search. My husband was totally surprised to find his father listed - he had run off and joined the Merchant Marine when he was 15 and returned to NY through Ellis Island apparently.

Sunday we went through the Charles Darwin exhibit at the Museum of Natural History. A wonderful thorough exhibit with photographs, some of Darwin's possessions, some specimen from his beetle, butterfly, and bird collections, artifacts he sent back from his 5-year expedition on the HMS Beagle, pages from his journals and letters, extensive history, movies, fossils, coral, skeletons, skulls, fetuses to show relationships between species, live and stuffed birds and animals he saw on his expedition, small replica of the Beagle, etc. etc. There was even a live green iguana and two live galapos tortoises. Wonderful exhibit and very popular - lots of people, sold out for the day.

We took the time to see a number of other exhibits at the museum, also, including the bird exhibition. I thought of Audubon, of course, because collectors had killed and stuffed the birds (from all over the world) which were placed in dioramas of their natural habitats.

Well, I'm totally exhausted and am off to bed.

Marni

It didn't appear at all real to me, if you compare it w/ the fish hawk pic just before it, the hawk is much better positioned. I had looked at it before i had read about the David picture and i was wandering why the David picture was there, I didn't get it just by looking at them.

On pg 372 I enjoyed Rhodes slight bit of humor at the bottom of the paragraph where he is talking about Lucy's comments about John and that "'indolence is too much fostered.' (Rhodes says) Indolence as it was measured in the Audubon family was a vigorous business, however; she reported further that John had 'skinned about a hundred birds which are hanging up in the adjoining rooms."

Harris had also commented about seeing the beginning of the "Trail of TEars" march. In the phamphlet about him there is a quote from his journal of their trip thru the South:

".....a few miles in advance of the village we overtook an escort of the mounted rangers conducting towards their new homes in the far west, the families of the friendly warriors of this part of the nation, who are now in Fla. They numbered about 2,000, old men and youths, women and children with a few of the inferior chiefs, a melancholy spectacle of the remains of a brave nation doomed to annihilation - driven from their homes by the overwhelming power of their white oppressors. But this is a subject which demands an abler pen, the wrongs of the red man is a theme which will not be neglected by the moralist or poet, my object is only to record facts. ...Gen Jessup...could soon dispense w/ the services of the warriors in Fla and that their families must be sent forthwith to MOntgomery where steamers wld take them to Mobile, where they wld be joined by the warriors and proceed west. In consequence of this order they were compelled to sell all of their effects, which they cld never transport on their own backs or those of their miserable ponies, at 2 days notice." I think Harris' pen was pretty able, I would be curious if he wrote other things later in his life. JJA's statement about this is at the bottom of pg 397, he doesn't do a bad job either of describing this holocaust in our country.

They must have talked about what they were seeing, the attitudes in their comments are similar. It amazed me that Harris used the phrase "doomed to annihilation" in 1837. What prescience he had. He died in 1863, so he hadn't yet seen the worse of the Indian wars.

How sad. These two men, who had interacted with the Indians, were able to see clearly what a tragedy it was. But others were not.

Here is the live camera for the tortoise at the Darwin exhibition. Click on View the tortoise live. It's not the most thrilling wild cam, as it takes forever to reload on my slow browser, and the tortoise doesn't move much. Right now, it is between the bottom rock and the glass.

TORTOISE

I just saw the most wonderful documentary on HBO Family Channel.

It is titled "Paper Clips" and is the true story of a middle school in Whitwell, Tenn where 3 teachers worked w/ students who were studying the Holocaust and developed a project they had impact from Tenn to Europe. I missed the beginning, so i'm not sure how the idea got started, but they decided to collect paper clips as representative of the people who were in the Holocaust. They ended up with 29 million paper clips and thousands of wonderful letters from people who were survivors or who's friends and family died in the camps. They were contacted by a group of survivors who came and spent two or three days in the community and told their stories, impacting not only the students but many in the town.

One of the teachers said she would like to provide a permenant memorial on the school grounds using the paper clips as a symbol of the 11 million people who died. A couple of German descent who lived in the community went to Germany and found a cattle car that was used to transport people to the camps. They brought it to Whitwell and it is used as a depository and museum for the clips and the stories. The students now act as docents to the students and adults who come from everywhere to hear the story of the Holocaust and the story of the project.

The story is wonderful in many ways: it belies the horrible stories about how bad todays' teachers are that are put forth, largely by the conservative right who dislikes the teachers' union; it tells a marvelous story of a whole community learning lessons of history, tolerance and compassion; it tells a story of students just needing to be told real, interesting stories of history to enjoy studying it; it tells the story that middle school students can be responsible, hard-working young people when they are motivated.

It's also on HBO ON Demand, if you have access to that.......jean

P.S when i posted this on the tv discussion someone told me that they had read that Jews wore paper clips to identify each other, that's why they tho't of collecting them. There are so many interesting tangents to this story.

In 1993 when I arrived for the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island there was a line at least a thousand feet long. It was not a single file line in any sense. I and by Baltimore friend was a part of a Gray Line tour of lower Manhattan and they led us to the head of the line amid the boos and obscene gestures of the many patiently awaiting their turn, It was a 100 plus July afternoon with about 70% humidity and we did not try to await the line up the statute. It would have take days to get that 1993 line past todays airport type security

My friend who is a PhD historian was most impressed with Ellis Island. I should have checked the record for one of my Great Grandmothers whose oldest child was born in N.Y, but scratch that since her arrival in N.Y. would have been in the 1850, and Ellis was not begun as an Immigration processing center until the 1870’s. I suppose my Great Grand mom like Audubon just got off the boat at the N.Y. dock..

The Edward Harris attitude toward the Indians and their future as you reported in message #624 very much echoes the George Catlin view of the Indians future. His mission, repeated, ad nauseaum, in every chapter and sometimes on every page was that the native cultures were doomed to prompt extinction to be replaced by the European culture. His mission was simply to record their culture in paintings and words for future generations. It either never occurred to him that there might still be time to change the course of history or he was completely uninterested in doing so. While his writings reflect a certain sentimental nostalgic regret; they fall far short of being a call for positive action to stem the then current course with its certain conclusive result. This too seems to have been the Edward Harris position expressed in the quoted insert in our message 624.

I note that there is very little on our Edward Harris on the Internet. The only exception was that a Google search hit an Edward Harris House Inn that perhaps is his New Jersey homestead

I had the same trouble finding information about Ed Harris on the web. Thank you, Jean, for bringing info. from his journal to our discussion. Thank goodness so many people kept extensive journals before the days of mass communication. The journals are the source of such fascinating stories. There is so much we would not know about history without them.

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Darwin was another who kept a daily journal. A number of his journals were on display at the exhibit. The open pages were "translated" because his writing was somewhat difficult to read.

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Joan: Thanks for the tortoise cam link. I was watching it last week and never once saw a tortoise move. At first I thought they were rocks. At the museum, when we were in line for about 20 minutes awaiting our turn to get in, the tortoise terrarium was right next to us. It was large and the tortoises were at the other end. One was sleeping or just lying there. But the other became very active while we were watching. It got up, turned around, and rather quickly walked over to us and stayed there watching us. It was right next to us so we talked to it for awhile through the glass. It seemed as though it was watching us, and then we realized it looked as though it was watching a movie on a screen next to us! We certainly had a great view of the tortoise, but I always feel sorrow for animals caged up.

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Harold: We waited in line for the Ellis Island ferry for about 45 minutes before we reached the search/scanner area. The last time I tried to get on the ferry to see the Statue of Liberty, there was a 5-hour wait in line. We decided against it!

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The night before we headed to NY, I looked for an Ellis Island immigrant listing on the internet and found it immediately. The records of people who came into NY through Ellis Island between the years 1892 and 1924 are available with a certain amount of info about each, including ship of passage, year arrived, and name and age. That's how I found what I think is my grandmother. Here' a link:

http://www.ellisisland.org/search/passSearch.asp

Marni

By 1835 10 Numbers of Birds per year were expected to be completed. Audubon now expected all 4 Volumes to be done in 1838 and he could retire. (Whew! He deserved it!) Havell had approx 50 colorists and a 2nd engraver working for him, mainly focusing on Audubon’s book. Audubon paid Havell 100 pounds weekly.

By 1835 Audubon was convinced that he would get no more subscribers in Europe. Tastes for nature were changing from birds to insects, fish and botany. I wonder if the reason for this had anything to do with the HMS Beagle's expedition 1831 - 1836. Darwin and others on the voyage sent ongoing packages of specimens back to England over the 5 years and there was a great deal of scientific flurry over their findings.

With the help of Nicholas Berthoud, who was now Audubon's New York agent, JJA was finding new American subscribers for his book.

The 400th plate was finished in Oct., 1837. JJA added several more birds. He had begun crowding different birds into one plate. The last plate was of American dippers. It was finished June 16, 1838. John W. had contributed 10 birds and Victor had painted some backgrounds.

MacGillivray and Bachman, who went to Edinburgh in 1838, helped JJA complete the biographies which were so large that they were printed in two large volumes. The text of the last volume of the biographies went to press May 4, 1839, when Audubon was 54.

The Audubons moved back to New York City where they lived on White Street until they built their 2-story clapboard house, Minniesland, on property overlooking the Hudson River in Washington Heights (presently between 155th and 158th streets back to 10th Ave). (It is no longer there.)

The book had cost Audubon about $115,640 ($2,141,000 today). He had raised all funds himself without grants or legacies. His profit was fairly small. About 160-170 subscribers stayed on to the end. John Jacob Astor bought a full set of the volumes of large plates.

To make more of a profit from his years of labor, JJA decided to make a smaller royal octavo-sized (6.5”x10”) Birds of America sold in monthly Numbers. They would use the new technology of the lithograph. The large plates would be reduced to octavo size using the camera lucida. Audubon hired Philadelphia lithographer John T. Bowen, a 38-year-old English immigrant.

160 sets of the small volumes were sold the very first year they were sold. JJA had 500 subscribers in the 2nd year. The last 5 Numbers of the octavo edition of Birds was published May 29, 1844. This edition made the Audubons money, paid for their house, and sustained the family for years. They made $36,000 in profit ($840,000 today). (Huzzah!)

Info about lithographs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithograph

Info about producing the smaller book:

http://www.abirdshome.com/Audubon/VolI/00000.html

Here's a fascinating article with photos about Minniesland:

http://www.minniesland.com/about_our_name.html

Marni

Victor Audubon wrote about swimming in New York City "floating bathhouses." I didn't know what these were, but read on the web a 1998 "Village Voice" article by Guy Trebay about an exhibit called "New York's Floating Bathhouses" at one of New York City’s more obscure museums, the Lower East Side Tenement Museum (108 Orchard Street). Here are excerpts from his article:

“The first floating bathhouses were built in the early 19th century near the Battery and at Castle Garden. As day resorts catering to a moneyed caste, they were early forerunners of Manhattan spa hotels.... New Yorkers of the period went to floating pools for the therapeutic effects of salt air and also, of course, to see and be seen.

By the turn of the century, public bathing had taken on a different kind of urgency, as 4 million people each summer visited 20 bathhouses afloat in the East and Hudson rivers. The burgeoning of floating bathhouses followed the needs of immigrant expansion; nearly 2000 immigrants were arriving in Manhattan monthly after the Civil War. Packed into tenement buildings that lacked not only showers but toilets or sinks, people in working-class immigrant neighborhoods gravitated to the wharfs and piers for relief from their ghettos and also to get washed. That the rivers themselves were dangerous and filthy was not much deterrent. Neither were commonplace drownings and accidents.

The phenomenon was of no crucial concern to city fathers until the sight of naked people at the waterfront became offensive to commuters arriving by ferry. It was only then that public health officials and temperance societies, who'd been advocating aggressively for enclosed public baths all along, got their way. In 1870, Boss Tweed, then commissioner of public works, opened two public bathhouses, one on each river.

People were still bathing in the same polluted waters, but now they did so behind high wooden walls. They arrived in large numbers and formed ad hoc bathing societies that mimicked those in Russia, Scandinavia, and Eastern Europe. 'Public bathing seems alien to us now,' explains the show's curator, architectural designer David Gissen, in a period 'when the whole idea of human physical experience is seen as frightening.'

With no chance of distancing themselves from bodily function, immigrants adapted the bathing structures in ways that 'allowed them to become culturally infused.' That the baths were segregated by sex— men and women attended on alternating days— was 'just so much the better.' Eastern European Jews, according to Gissen, 'may even have used them as a substitute for the Orthodox ritualarium, or mikvah bath.'

In 1907 the government commissioned a labor report that judged the baths overcrowded and the water foul. Contending that immigrants were being forced to bathe in filthy waters, the Association for Improving the Conditions of the Poor conducted its own 1915 test in which dye poured into a sewer at Rutgers Street and the East River later turned up in the water at the Battery Baths. Soon afterward, the city accelerated construction of permanent public bath- and shower houses. Indoor plumbing became commonplace with the completion of the Croton Aqueduct. And, by the late 1930s, the last of the riverborne structures was closed.”

"Village Voice" article from 1998:

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/9851,trebay,2252,4.html

Marni

Click Here for an advertisement offering Catlin Prints for sale. Click the picture for a larber view. I have a set of 8 Catlin prints most of which are framed for wall hanging. I purchased these some 40 years ago from a different publisher.

Harold: Your remark about your grandmother not being processed through Ellis Island reminded me of something I saw on the Ellis Island site - a timeline of Ellis Island's history.

http://ellisisland.org/genealogy/ellis_island_timeline.asp

On page 431 Rhodes writes "Griswold (a magazine writer) also saw the steady, faithful intimacy that bound the artist to his Lucy after their long years together. 'The sweet unity betwn his wife and himself as they turned over the original drawings of his birds and recalled the circumstances of the drawings, some of which had been made when she was w/ him; her quickness of perception and their mutual enthusiasm regarding these works of his heart and hand and the tenderness w/ which they unconsciously treated each other, all was impressed upon my memory. Ever since, i have been convinced that A owed more to his wife than the world knew or ever would. That she was always a reliance, often(!?!) a help and ever a sympathizing sister-soul to her noble husband was fully apparent to me.'"

I hope JJ read that and gave Lucy a nice diamond broach and an apology for ever doubting her and a thank you for raising his sons and providing him w/ the funds to go to Europe in the first place!!!.........

Marni, your trip sounds very nice, was it very cold? Maybe that's why the lines were not so long.........jean

Marni that is an interesting Ellis Island time line that you linked in #633. It indicates that it was the 1890’s before it became the Immigrant processing center. I thought it had begun this service earlier- in the 1870’s

I note that in the early 19 century Ellis Island was used as a place for executing condemned prisoners. I remember reading in "The Great Iron Ship" the story of the Great Eastern, on its 1850's visit to NY the last request of a condemned criminal was that the craft taking him to be hanged pass close to the anchored ship. I'm not certain now that the destination was Ellis Island but it was one of the Islands in NY harbor. The condemned professed his great appreciation at the experience of seeing the great ship.

The Great Eastern was a great hit on this visit and ordinary people came from great distances to see it. They did, however, riot in protest of the five cent admission charged for boarding the vessel.

Jean, did you notice in the summer of 1832 Lucy finally was able to accompanied JJ and the boys on a birding journey to Maine and New Brunswick? I think that was the first time Lucy actually participated since their marriage, but early on during their courtship in Pennsylvania together they had observed the swallows in a cave

Previously I have speculated in posts about the date when the RR replaced the stagecoach for travel between Liverpool and Edinburgh. I found the “1826 Journal” account of the JJ’s three-day, two-night stage journey one of the high interest points of that book. Well I had over looked the fact that the answer to my question is in our book on P348 that tells us on April 15, 1831 JJ & Lucy left Edinburgh for Liverpool on a railroad at the extraordinary rate of 25 MPH, The trip that had taken some 60 hours in 1826 had been cut to no more than 12 hours just five years later..

I did notice that at almost 50 yrs of age Lucy and JJ finally got to spent some good time together.

Marni - enjoyed the time line. How about that half of E Is is made from ship's ballast and earth from the NYC subway building? They do have to put that dirt somewhere. Also enjoyed the Village Voice link and once i got to it i had to read other links on the site. They do give you news you don't get - or at least not in that form - from the main stream press.

When is the last day for our discussion?

Re: "I hope JJ read that and gave Lucy a nice diamond broach and an apology for ever doubting her and a thank you for raising his sons and providing him w/ the funds to go to Europe in the first place!!!........."

Jean: I agree with you wholeheartedly!!! Amazingly, after all the separations and misunderstandings, the relationship remains one of true love, it appears!

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It was fascinating to read about the New York landfill. I remember being shocked when I saw the maps at Castle Clinton in the Battery showing how landfill was used to expand southern Manhattan. I had no idea.

I was also surprised to see how Ellis Island was used as a concentration camp. I knew we had done that on the west coast, but wasn't aware of it on the east coast.

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Jean: I believe our last day is tomorrow, Wednesday. Originally, it would have been yesterday, Monday, but we had extended one week by two days.

Harold: Tomorrow is our last day, right? Wow! Just about done! I think some important final things to discuss are the Quadripeds, John W's expedition to California, and then the final days of the members of the Audubon family.

Any insights or comments on these last pages of our wonderful book?

Any comments on your overall reaction to the book or to our discussion?

Is there anything else we should discuss before we close?

Marni

Jean: I think the cold weather did make a difference with the length of the line for Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty. But we were very lucky with our winter weather - it was cold, but above freezing and sunny and the ferries are closed in and warm. We did some walking, but traveled mainly by subway and ferry and were fine.

Last year we had an unusual experience. We went to NYC on almost exactly the same winter date and the weather went up into the 70's. Many restaurants in Little Italy where we had dinner set up tables for dinner outside and we ate outside with coats off!

Marni

On Mar. 9, 1843, Audubon left for the west to find and paint quadrupeds with a party of Ed Harris (who acted as doctor), Isaac Sprague (Mass. artist), John G. Bell (taxidermist), and Lewis Squires (assistant). Dances and parties were held in JJA’s honor along the way. He was famous. (I thought it was interesting that the Superintendent of Indian Affairs gave Audubon one of William Clark’s 1805 journals.)

The party traveled up the Missouri River on the American Fur Co. steamboat (John Jacob Astor co.) Audubon hired William L. Sublette as guide and Etienne Prevost to hunt and trap. The group saw the ravages of time and civilization. Approx. 17,000 Indians had died of smallpox; those left that the Audubon party met along the way were dirty, hungry, lousy, and stole. Audubon passed huge herds of buffalo and saw many slaughtered. They traveled as far as Fort Union (N. Dakota), then built a boat and came back down river. Aubudon arrived at Minniesland on Nov. 6, 1843.

Bachman was disappointed in the number of quadrupeds the party had found. He wrote: “He [Audubon} had lost his keen edge.”

150 species make up The Viviparous Quadrupeds of North America. JJA painted more than half of the work. John W. painted the rest. Victor coordinated the printing and subscriptions. In 1845, 1846, and 1848, 3 imperial folio volumes of Quadrupeds had been lithographed with hand-colored 22X28” plates. Bachman produced 3 accompanying volumes of letterpress issued in 1846, 1851, and 1854. Victor and John W. later produced several octavo editions.

Here's a link to the text of Quadrupeds of North America By John James Audubon and the Rev. John Bachman, D. D.:

Quadrupeds Text

Here's a link to info and some plates of Quadrupeds:

http://www.minniesland.com/study_octavo_quads.html

Marni

They do not seem to be coerced, i would be curious to read some of what they had to say about their lives.

About journaling, not only is it wonderful for us to have, but i think people did it for sev'l reasons. First of course to keep track of their own lives, but i think it gives an importance to what you are doing to write it down. And, in the days of few or no available calendars, it keeps them on track of what day it is.Which may seem odd to us, but i bet there were numerous people who knew only that it was spring/summer/fall or winter. There may even have been people who didn't know what the months of the year were.

The letter writing is also wonderful, i would like to get such detailed letters from my son so i would have a better sense of his day-to-day activities. My dgt is here keeping me informed of most of what's going on in her life, but it's hard for me to visulize what my son, who is only 3 hours away, does everyday. And what a joy it must have been to receive a letter from a family member who you haven't heard from for months, or longer.

I continue to be amazed at how much people traveled thru out history and up until WWII, and how far they traveled before good roads and good conveyances.........jean

some bird feed when i was filling the bird feeder. There are 15 mourning doves and one squirrel in the middle of them just sucking up the feed. It is like one of them found it and yelled "Hey guys! Over here!" I expected other birds to be there, but i guess not all of them are comfortable on the ground. The doves always sit on the ground beneath the feeder and eat what the smaller birds drop.......jean

Wasn't it ironic to see that Lucy's brother, Will Bakewell, who had been doing so well, went bankrupt in about 1843. Audubon, on the other hand, was famous and well off finally.

I felt so sad reading the last chapters of the biography. The Audubon family suffered so many tragedies after all of their hard work. Lucy and Audubon were finally in a position to relax and enjoy their golden years. They were together again, free from all debts and financially comfortable, in their own lovely home overlooking the beautiful Hudson River. The family had suffered through the tragic early deaths of Maria and Eliza Bachman from TB, but had beautiful grandchildren and Victor and John W. remarried.

But, in 1847 dementia was showing its destruction of Audubon. Bachman visited the Audubons and wrote that he saw a “ruin”. Audubon's mind was gone. He thought only thought of eating. Rhodes says he probably had Alzheimer’s.

In Feb., 1849, John W. joined Col. H.L. Webb’s California Co. as 2nd in command and went to California, joining the gold rush to find gold and to paint and collect specimens. His family backed him financially, along with other investors. John W. returned in Jul. 1850. The journey had been a disaster: Cholera struck (John had it twice), desertions were rampant, their money was stolen, paintings were shipped back and the ship sank. (I was wondering when this would happen. The Audubons had been pretty lucky by ships up until this point, except for seasickness.) The Audubons had to pay back John’s investors (they must have had a guarantee). The Audubons were nearly impoverished again.

In Jan. 1851 JJA stopped eating. He died on Jan. 27, 1851, surrounded by family. He was buried in Trinity Cemetery. (There was a photo of this in the link to the site with photos of the Audubon estate a few links back.)

Poor Lucy, who had spent so many years struggling to support her family was again in dire straits. In 1853, she was forced to rent out her house to make money. She traveled back and forth from one son's home to the other's, taking care of the grandchildren.

In 1856 her sons produced a 2nd octavo edition of Birds to bring in more income.

Tragedy struck again in 1857 when Victor injured his spine. This led to his death Aug. 17, 1860, at age 51.

In 1857 Lucy returned to teaching at age 70 and took on the family debts. What a trooper! She sold JJA’s original paintings to the New York Historical Society for $2000. She sold the old copper plates for scrap. She had to sell Minniesland.

In 1858 John began to produce a new full double elephant-sized chromolithographic edition of Birds. The first volume was produced in 1860. The Civil War put an end to subscriptions and the family was ruined.

In 1862 John got pneumonia. He died Feb. 21, 1862, at age 49.

Lucy moved in with family and friends. She died of pneumonia June 18, 1874, at age 86 in Kentucky. Her family moved her body to be buried next to husband in Trinity Cemetery (in Harlem.)

Lucy is one of the most amazing women I have ever read about. I would like to read a biography of her. I wonder if one has been written.

Marni

Jean: It really is interesting to see how differently we communicate today from just one or two generations ago. My mother kept a diary for most of her life. I suppose that's similar to a journal, although she didn't have the fascinating experiences that someone like Audubon had. My mother also was an excellent letter writer. She used to try to force us children to write letters, thank you notes, etc. To this day, my mother writes a long individual letter to each of her acquaintances in an annual Christmas card.

I, on the other hand, use the phone and email for most communications that are not face to face. I bet my mother's generation thinks this is rude. I also have never taken the time to write a diary or a journal. I wonder how many people do this today.

Marni

My library does have one copy of a biography about Lucy Audubon. I would love to read it.

Lucy Audubon a biography DeLatte, Carolyn E.

We are about to finish our discussion, but right now my schedule today is a bit uncertain since I need to take my car this morning for service. I sugggest we leave it open through Thursday. Marjorie can make it read only and begin the archive process Friday morning.

I have truly enjoyed this discussion. I have gained new knowledge from each post. Each post makes me ask more questions and want to learn more about birds and the growth of America.

It's amazing how fast and rich America became in such a short time. Audubon called America the wilderness and woods while he described England as rich and industrialized. How in the world did America progress so rapidly? That is one of the questions that continues to come to my mind.

Is the fast growth of America called the Manifest Destiny? Now, I am probably off our topic. Don't want to stray.

Hats: Good question! According to Wikipedia, "Manifest Destiny is a phrase that expressed the belief that the United States had a divinely inspired mission to expand, spreading its form of democracy and freedom. Originally a political catch phrase of the nineteenth century, Manifest Destiny eventually became a standard historical term, often used as a synonym for the territorial expansion of the United States across North America towards the Pacific Ocean....The phrase "Manifest Destiny" was first used primarily by Jackson Democrats in the 1840s to promote the annexation of much of what is now the Western United States (the Oregon Territory, the Texas Annexation, and the Mexican Cession).

Here's the rest of the explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny

American territrial expansion certainly impacted growth by encouraging immigration and the western movement. Land, raw materials, resources, and opportunity were available in America. Immigrants brought new blood and courageous strong people. Living on the frontier encouraged innovation, new ideas, strength, cunning, survival of the fittest. Opportunity and adventure awaited.

Just during the years 1892-1924 more than twenty million people immigrated through Ellis Island. America grew quickly and many were drawn west. Audubon was drawn west to make a living on the frontier. The California gold rush called to John W. Americans took advantage of their country's resources and America grew strong and powerful, becoming rich and industrialized as Audubon described England.

Marni

I haven't participated as much as I wished at the end, but I enjoyed this discussion immensely. Harold and Marni have been great DL's and the rest of you are great, too. Thanks for your patience, listening to me yak about my beloved birds. It has been a joy to share my enthusiasm with you.

Hats: Thanks for the info about the Lucy Audubon biography. I'm going to look for it. I'd like to hear more of her side of the story! I'd say the Audubon story is more than the making of "an American." Lucy was an immigrant, too.

Joan: We loved your information about birds. And Jean: Thank you for the history you added.

I loved this discussion. We were a small group but we had a lot of ideas and information. I loved the Rhodes book. I hadn't known a thing about Audubon except that he had painted birds. What a life he and his family led! And what fabulous bird information and pictures we found.

Our Audubon discussion is now drawing to a close. Thank you all for your participation, your wonderful questions, insights, comments, and information. You've added such depth to our discussion. I'm proud to have gone on this journey with you all.

I'll close with one final photograph I took this weekend, a picture of the Main Building entrance on Ellis Island.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS, EVERYONE!

Marni

When i read that her first dgt-in-law died and Lucy was taking care of the children, I moaned. It's lovely to have grandchildren on a temporary basis, but after age 50, raising children is very physically difficult.And she just keeps doing it or whatever else needs doing. I tho't of Abigail Adams and then of Mary Lincoln as the tragedies kept coming. These are 3 women whose stories we know, how many hundreds of thousands of women have done the same thing who haven't had their stories told. WAs it here that i mentioned "Bold Spirit" the woman who walked across the country to safe the family farm?

Thank you Hats for letting us know about the bio of Lucy. I'm going to look for that and get that author's perspective.

Thank you Harold and Marni for you wonderful, hard work as facilitators. Your links were amazing; i enjoyed every one of them. I would probably not have read this book if i wasn't doing it w/ all of you.

Thank you to all of you who were part of the discussion. I love the way we go on tangents and i loved all the links that everybody provided. Everybody says it, but i learn so much by being in these discussions. And it keeps my mind active and healthy. Having the subcriptions to check each day is exciting and energizing.

I'm looking forward to "meeting" you all in future discussions. I wish you all a good, peaceful and healthy holiday.....jean

Jean, thank you for sharing so much about American History along the way.

JoanK, thank you for all your helpful hints for a very new bird watcher.

And with much thanks again to Harold and Marni.

The idea of a “manifest Destiny” for the U.S. rose to the ridiculous at the time of the Spanish American War when having filled its logical shape on the north American continent it choose to join the race for colonial possessions overseas. Some of these colonial acquisitions still remain under some form of U.S. jurisdiction today with their future full political incorporation, Independence, or something in between remaining in doubt.

Today I think the use of the term “Manifest Destiny would be considered politically incorrect and would not be used in any official way. In Audubon’s day I think any concept of a special destiny for the U.S was simply the reflection of a healthy, well-founded optimism about the County’s future. Audubon always seemed to picture his country in this light, particularly in his intercourse with Europeans.

I too want to thank all of you who have participated here. We have been a small but dedicated group who has written over 650 commentaries on the book or on related thoughts suggested to us individually by our reading of the Book. Thank you JoanK, Jean, Hats and particularly Marni, our co-DL in her first participation as a Discussion Leader. I think we can all agree that Marni has done a fine job , and we must watch for future book discussions offered by her. Also thanks to the several netters who participated with a single or just a few posts and perhaps others who monitored the project with out making their presence known.

On the subject of future discussions, Ella and I are offering the current David McCullough history title for discussion beginning Jan 2 2006 and I see Hats, Jean and Marni are going to participate. Thank you for your interest, and you too Joan (and others) are welcome if you choose to join. Click Here.

Thanks for your kind words, Harold. I'd like to mention to everyone that coming up in March will be a discussion of Cokie Roberts' Founding Mothers, a nice follow-up to the Jan. 1776 discussion. A sign-up "page" will be available in the near future. I hope to see you all there as well as in the 1776 discussion with Harold!

Marni

This discussion is now Read Only and will be available in the Nonfiction folder in the Archives in a few days.