LJ - I think you are right. The chapters are short, so let's proceed that way.

But first, Outside Online has an area devoted to this disaster. The most interesting part is a series of dispatches sent by Scott Fischer's team during and after the disaster - well worth a look.

The pictures at the beginning of the book tell the difficulty of the last part of the climb better than words ever could. The knife-like summit ridge looks incredibly dangerous, and as Krakauer says, horribly exposed, even in bright sunlight.

I find the discussion about the commercialization of Everest interesting, but also a little odd. I guess reaching the summit has become a commodity as well as an achievement, but so what? I don't see anything inherently wrong with that. The caveat of buyer beware takes on a whole new importance though. Pick the wrong climbing company and you risk your life as well as your money.

I've been looking around online to find out if either Nepal or China has changed the way they issues permits since this disaster. No luck yet, but I'll keep trying.

Katie

Today I got my first copy of Outside magazine, after looking for it in three states, including the Barnes & Noble here. Was grocery shopping in the Winn Dixie and they had about 10 of them, very handsome indeed, can't wait to read them.

Also bought the Boukreev (sp) book and it has some startling photos and information, including the place Krakauer faltered and had to be HELPED down the mountain. I'm not sure I remember that.

I think it will be a very worthwhile look from another perspective. Maybe we'd even like to consider reading it, too, tho it's hardback.

I believe Boukreev is dead? Didn't he disappear recently on top of a mountain? It also has a photo of one of the bodies he encountered climbing up.

It also has a different map showing a different perspective of the base camps....the whole book is different.

Can't wait to hear what you think.

As to the commercialization of the climbing, good or bad issue: has anyone ever said what percentage of the $65,000to $75,000 paid to these groups does the government actually get??

I've seen films of these fellows and it's very much....what's the word? I'm at a loss, but they relished being in the know and in control...I thought Krakauer's explanation in the very first pages of WHY people climb is true.

What did you think?

Going off to read Katie's excellent site: thanks, Katie!

Ginny

Read the first two chapters a few days ago and looked at those maps. Ginny, what explanation - the one where somebody (?) said "Because it is there." If that's the one, I thought to myself, that's crazy, not the kind of people I know.

Ella: No, the part where he said, on page 28, "climbing had become the focus of my existence to the exclusion of almost everything else. Achieving the summit of a mountain was tangible, immuitable, concrete. The incumbent hazards lent the activity a seriousness of purpose that was sorely missing from the rest of my life. I thrilled in the fresh perspective that came from tipping the ordinary plane of existence on end...And climbing provided a sense of community as well. To become a climber was to join a self-contained, rabidly idealistic society, largely unnoticed and surprisingly uncorrupted by the world at large. The culture of ascent was characterized by intense competition and undiluted machismo, but for the most part, it's constituents were concerned with impressing only one another...presige was earned by tackling the most unforgiving routes with minimal equipement, in the boldest syle imaginable."

Krakauer is noted for his self-revealing honesty,and I think that's as good an explanation as any for WHY these people risk their lives and spend their money and neglect their families (which they all admit).

Ginny

Read a bit more last night. Krakauer uses phrases such as "I knew better," "irrational act," "good sense be damned," - those were just in the introduction, I believe. This is not usually the type of book I enjoy as it is so terrible to see pictures of these relatively young men who lost their lives so unnecessarily right at the beginning of the book! But the book was loaned to me by my nephew (actually he loaned it to my husband who he thought would enjoy the adventure) and I will read it through (maybe).

Did smile at "Limbaughesque rants." Have heard recently more quotes about the man, have listened to him a few times but truly don't like his program.

But, honestly, folks, can you understand anyone going on such trips? Not only the danger (1 in 4 die, if I'm correct?), but on pg. 52 the trail is littered with feces laying around, no toilets, open sewers, fleas and lice at the camp beds - beyond my comprehension why one would willingly submit their bodies to this kind of atmosphere. Most of these young men are either married or in love - what would you say to a guy you were in love with going on such a trip?

Ella. At least from my perspective, these folks are relatively "Young", but I was impressed that so many of them were realy well "Past their prime". Admittedly it takes years of training and practice to achieve athletic prowess in a "Specialty" but several of these climbers were realy poor risks for these circumstances.

In passing, I agree that the maps and photographs are exceptionally helpful as are the descriptions of that part of the world we've read in the Adventure folder over the past year.

It would seem to me that the real problem with pollution is in the realm of the non-biodegradable garbage.

The literary juxtaposition of the end with the begining and the crucial point in the climb was very effective here at the begining of the book.

Best

Yes, you know I very much disliked Krakauer when we read Into the Wild but here I have a different feeling. Am just immersed in this whole experience!

These people ARE different, Ella, they fascinate me. Was shocked at the bodies left, tho, Boukreev's book has photos of them. The IMAX team did NOT take photos of the deceased. You can't tell anything by the photos, tho.

The site Katie provided has an accpount of correspondence between Krakauer and Boukreev, and neither seem to agree on a few points. Printed that all out.

Am about 1/4 way thru the Boukreev book, and I really value it for the differences. HE says that people didn't start really flooding to Mt. Everest until after Breashears led Texas businessman and millionaire Dick Bass to the summit. Bass was 55, and many see this as the "pivotal point in the history of attempts to climb Everest." It proved that if a "55 year old with motivation and discretionary income could do it, anybody could."

Some on the mountains call these teams that take paying clients to the mountains "dollar dogs," and Rob Hall's was one of them. Of course this is gossip.

He also says that so terrible were the conditions in the new Soviet Union that he routinely GAINED weight on these expeditions, instead of losing the 20 or so pounds Americans would lose. That, and seeing his buddy climbers in Russia have to quit and become bus drivers and selling bakery goods, convinced him to make a stab at getting paid to guide.

He was in Scott Fischer's Mountain Madness team. He quotes Fischer as saying the permits he sought cost $50,000 for 5 climbers, $10,000 for each additional climber. So now we know where some of the money went....

He reveals that the Sherpas spotted a star which did not belong in the night sky over the Himalaya in March of 1996, and that it moved "for several consecutive days ...over the mountains, its trailing tail fanning into the darkness. This was the comet Hyakutake....and it's stellar trespass was considered an ominous sign by the Sherpas." 40% of the fatalities on Everest have been Sherpas.

Now the April 20 edition of Time reveals Tom Whittaker, a one-legged climber who lost a kneecap and foot in a car accident in 1979, is on his way up Mt. Everest. I wonder if we can see him in the site Katie put up? He says, "No, I don't think I'm insane," but adds that it's his last trip. He says "one of the things that really attracts me about mountaineering is its total pointlessness...So I've dedicated my life to it."

I think Krakauer said it better.

So much more to say, I think these people are different, and am fascinated by them!

More later....

Ginny

I also enjoyed reading the exchanges between Krakauer and Boukreev. And I think that Krakauer came out ahead. Although Boukreev DID save lives, it also does appear from the sequence of events, that Boukreev did not fulfill his duties and responsibilities as a paid guide ($25,000). I think that Krakauer made his point that just being an extremely talented climber doesn't necessarily mean one will automatically be a good guide.

I also enjoyed the exchange between the young Sherpa Lopsang (I think that's it) who hauled Sandy Pitman up the mountain. It was so sad. His despair over the tragedy is clear, and he took Krakauer's mild criticism of him very close to his heart. Sadly, he died in an avalanche on Everest the following September. Had he lived, he would have been one of the premier climbers in the world.

Ginny - what is the name of Boukreev's book? I'd like to read it.

Katie: It's called The Climb. The photos are spectacular, and I'l love to hear your opinion of it. I think Boukreev thought K. bested him, too, so he wrote a book to set it straight.

He explains he wasn't hired to be a "hand holder." That post would be filled by two other guides and some Sherpas. He states Fischer's ideas on this, and then quotes Henry Todd as saying "When I used him in '95, it was perfect. He was absolutely super. He did exactly what he was supposed to do. I knew who he was; I knew what he was capable of...If anything went wrong, I wanted a rope bullet up that hill--a rope gun. ..If clients got into trouble, he could get them, bring them down.' In Todd's opinion, Boukreev was not a hand holder. To hire him with that in mind, Todd thought, would be a gross misappropriation of his talents. 'It's not what he's designed for. It's like using a racing car for taking children to school.'"

In case people wonder why I'm going on about him, I'm going to stop, but I think it's always valuable to get another opinion about something, especially something like this. Boukreev was the one who climbed without oxygen, and Krakauer's only recommendation at the end of the book was that in future nobody be allowed to carry oxygen. If that had been the case, Boukreev would have been the only one on the mountain.

What aspects of the Krakeur book are we looking at now? The first two chapters??

Ginny

Ginny and Katie - cannot understand your fascination with these people, they seem so foolish to me. I could understand if they were doing something for the fun or thrill of it, but many of these climbers have all been injured, or had ill effects of one kind or another and keep coming back for more! Linda Krakauer seems to me to be the only one quoted in the book as having any sense.

Our nephew brought out the interview Krakauer gave to Amazon com. and I quote "In fact, all three of the books I have written ... explore the mater of why certain people... feel such a powerful compulsion to engage in a life-threatening ...activity. ..... even after devoting so much thought and ink to the subject, I'm still not sure that I really understand why men and women climb." Later he states that writing the book has not proved to be the cathartic act I hoped it would be.

But he is honest, I agree. He states that he is a journalist and makes his living by writing - perhaps he is more driven to write and, thus, must do this to have something to write about! Read a couple more chapters - that icefall! and the headaches and the nausea, vomiting. That's all about all I can read at a time or I will be sick myself!

Ella,

I certainly can't speak for Ginny, but I think the reason I enjoyed this book, and why I enjoy the whole genre of adventure/travel writing, is the exploration of personalities and their response to extreme physical and mental stress. The real question might be, "Why do we care about these people who put their lives in danger for no reason that we can understand?" I think there exists a need, stronger in some than others, to challenge oneself, to go for what used to be called 'peak' experiences. And perhaps it is difficult for people who have never felt that need to understand it. I'm the world's biggest wimp, but I do love reading about the people who MUST do these kinds of things!

Ginny - I'm going right over to Amazon to order that book (I'll go to B & N once SeniorNet gets that going.) And I guess I've been a little lax in the discussion leadership department (again). So let's focus on the first three chapters for the time being.

LJ - I agree that the device of starting with the aftermath in Chapter One works well. In fact, the following paragraph on page 6 is the book's real prologue:

Later- after six bodies had been located, after a search for two others had been abandoned, after surgeons had amputated the gangrenous right hand of my teammate Beck Weathers - poeople would ask why, if the weather had begun to deteriorate, had climbers on the upper mountain not heeded the signs? Why did veteran Himalayan guides keep moving upward, ushering a gaggle of relatively inexperienced amateurs - each of whom had paid as much as $65,000 to be taken safely up Everest - into an apparent death trap?

It wasn't just the lives lost, or this book, that made this particular disaster so newsworthy. At the same time, a South African team, sponsored by the Johannesburg Sunday Times, was experiencing some leadership difficulties that were drawing the attention of the entire climbing world. I happened to be following the climb online on a site put up by the Times, and it was fascinating to read the bulletins sent down by the reporters for the Times. I'll see if by chance that site is still up.

Katie

I just today got this book from my son - can't put it down. I find adventuers of this sort immencely facinating. Katie, I must be the world's second biggest wimp, wonder if that's why I love reading about things that I'd never have the courage to do. JK's descriptions of his surroundings are wonderful - wouldn't you just love to see the Icefall? Perhaps take a few dozen steps into it? And I think these people are in part doing this for the " fun and thrill of it" As my husband always said when hearing of some crazy happening, "it takes all kinds" . And I'm probable going to be up all night reading.

This is so great, what a good group. The Boukreev book is told from a different angle entirely: from the point of view of the organizers and the guides.

Boukreev is starting to list all the complaints against him, his concerns, the endless problems, the snafus. The two groups DID join up, and it will be later when his observations really prove striking.

Boukreev's English is so poor, no one could understand him. One climber whom he exorted to "save yourself," misunderstood. Boukreev should have had somebody to interpret.

ON the Oxygen cannister problem, apparently the older man, the 68 year old, had to use it to sleep, and this began to deplete the store very fast. Also Scott Fischer's party only had extremely antiquated radios and not enough of them, this is a puzzling thing when you contrast it to all the other preparations.

Going back now and reread the first 3 chapters or Krakauer. Krakauer is Krakauer, his voice always seems to be the only one in town, but it's not.

Incidentally the Outside Magazine, which sent Krakauer, is a fabulous looking thing, glossy photos, intriguing articles. Jungle photos you can SEE yourself in, and ads in the back to die for! Want to vacation on your own private island? There's one off NC for you for about $1,500 a week. That's less than Hilton Head for a week. Also you get two boats. Have always wanted my own island, let dogs run free, but would you spend your entire time patrolling it in fear of interlopers???

Ginny

On page 37, I think we get the first premonition of disaster. "I wasn't sure what to make of my fellow clients. In outlook and experience they were nothing like the hard-core climbers with whom I usually went to the mountains"

Admittedly, they weren't amateurs, but they weren't the types one would associate with an undertaking of this magnitude.

Best

I just finished the Bourkeev book and it was very interesting, broken English and all. It gives a completely different perspective on the disaster and its causes AND it makes it very clear, LJ, that you are correct in noting that the Rob Hall team was a bit old perhaps, and most definitely, undertrained and under-conditioned for extremely high altitude climbing. The book also underscores the pressure that both guides, Rob Hall and Scott Fischer, were feeling to get their clients to the top. Fischer was completely broke, and not likely to make much money, if any, on this climb. Getting his clients to the summit was his one hope of having a future as an adventure climbing packager. Rob Hall was anxious to keep his lead in the business.

Can you imagine paying $65,000 to sleep on a filthy flea and tick-ridden mattress in a filthy room warmed by a smoking, filthy little yak-dung burning stove?

Not in a million years.

Katie, can you scan in that photo of Boukreev standing on all those huge cracks of ice? There's also the photo of those steel ladders that they had to place OVER these cracks.

I have actually one time "climbed" a "mountain." Poor Boukreev and any one else who knows anything about climbing would cry at this, but there's this "mountain" near where I went to college, called "P....Mountain" and it's the custom to "climb" it. So we did. Late in the afternoon, no snow, no picks, no ropes, no nothing but stupidity.

Gives you a totally different view of things: going up, all you care about is the next root or foot hold and why didn't you bring rope? Or picks?? Or something?? And what will you hang on to, and why are you there??

No viewing of anything.

Then, at the top, OK, OK, yes, pretty, yes...what now? WE have to go DOWN?? HOW?? WHAT a nightmare. Darkness fell. Told myself if I ever EVER got off that thing I'd never go back, and haven't.

Can't imagine the snow covered vistas, the cold, the cracks in the ice, the Sherpas who did NOT set the ropes, so now Katie, what do you think: why did Fischer's wife seem to be so angry??

The IMAX people, who apparently were heroes, have just brought the film out. I know it's in Boston, but is it anywhere else? I'd love to see it.

I'm not through the Boukreev, but I'm not seeing a lot about Beck Weathers. I have a feeling he's going to go up again, despite what he says. I bet he writes a book, too.

Also, I note that the NY Times has interviews with Krakauer, if anyone is interested. Under their best selling books sections.

Ginny

Honor and Glory and Power and Wealth are driving forces to the human Psyche, and indeed many of these are more or less identified by gender association, either in the raw goals themselves or in the modi that people use to obtain them. Scott's publicist,confidant and frequent climbing partner Jane Bromet, said, "Recognition was important to Scott, He ached for it....it bothered him that he was not more widely respected.....he felt slighted and hurt". Perhaps this Ego Drive was so great that he lost sight of his responsability for the lives of his "Customers" "CAVEAT EMPTOR"

Best

I think the elite climbing community must be so small that having a wonderful reputation as a climber was the only hope of an individual trying to make a successful business of guiding others to the top of mountains. And that must be the primary reason Scott Fischer wanted the kind of recognition that Rob Hall had already achieved with a couple of successful seasons under his belt.

Ginny - I remember reading a very angry letter to Krakauer from Fischer's sister. Is that what you are referring to? I can't remember reading about an angry wife - though it does appear that Fischer fooled around a lot. The sister was furious with Krakauer, and perhaps it was because of the kind of thing that LJ mentioned above - his mentioning Fischer's frustration over lack of recognition. Perhaps too she was angry over the implication that Fischer was so desperate for this climb to be successful, that is, get all clients to the top, that some safety measures were compromised.

I will scan those photos tomorrow and see if I can get them put up for those of you without the Bourkeev book. They are impressive...

I'm still reading this book - still facinated! Just checked into www.everestee98.com and there were two new updates on their climb. I could just picture where they are and was interested to note that the weather at Base Camp has been HOT. Though higher up a lot of show. Check it out - a lovely recent picture of Everest. I am reading a bit slower and trying to keep climbers and facts straight in my mind (which occasionly suffers from CRS)

Julia - what a great site! I had no idea it was there. Isn't is amazing how old the team (as a whole) is? A 61-year-old, and several men in there mid-50's. It will be fun to follow that climb as we talk about this one. I will put a link to it to the top of this discussion.

Thanks again!

Julia, what a fabulous site, and how interesting it will be to read along with the newest attempt.

Did you all see this on that site, I've copied it here? Everest Ethics?

Everest Environmental Expedition '98

Ethics

The tragedies of the spring of 1996 have legitimately called into question the motives, qualifications, and commercialization of Everest climbers and expeditions. We would like to convey some of our thoughts on the complicated issue of Everest climbing ethics.

Climbing Team and Safety. On an 8,000 meter peak risk cannot be eliminated; the best that any climber or team can do is to minimize danger with thorough planning and with aggressive mental and physical preparation. Our team, most of whom have climbed together previously, is a private expedition, as distinguished from a commercial expedition. We share expenses and duties among our members; we do not make a profit. While we do not want to pass judgment on commercial expeditions, we believe that developing a safe climbing team is made easier if the participants know each other.

Why Everest? Everest (Chomolungma to the Tibetans and Sherpas, or Sagarmatha to the Nepalese) is a wonderful mountain with exquisite mountaineering routes; and, it is the highest point on the globe! It is hardly a "walk up" from any approach. Yet with modern equipment, Sherpa support, and experienced guides, Everest has become very accessible to those with the resources of time and money, and thus Everest is a crowded mountain. In 1995 there were 3 teams on the South Col route with a total of about 25 international climbers. In 1996 and 1997 the number of climbers soared to about 250 in each spring. To lessen this impact, the Ministry of Tourism in Nepal helps to encourage teams to be ecologically responsible by requiring a cash "environmental deposit" prior to an expedition. This deposit is refunded if the team leaves its basecamp site in good cleanliness. Unfortunately, many teams do not even try to qualify for the refund. (In 1995 our team easily justified its refund.) Although the Ministry of Tourism limits the environmental impact at Base Camp, Camps II and IV (see below) are in need of cleanup work. Based on these issues, we could have decided as a team that we should stay away from Everest, and not add to the congestion. Instead, we are committed to leaving this mountain in better shape after our visit.

Garbage. Most people believe that Everest is a "garbage dump". Well, yes and no. Certainly in the early years of Everest climbing, no one gave a second thought to discarding trash and human waste wherever. More recently, a great deal of cleanup has actually occurred at Base Camp, and most teams are now more responsible (due to regulations and to the general improvement in environmental ethics). Increasingly, human waste is being carried out. On the other hand, the number of expeditions has mushroomed making the problem larger.

In 1995 our team accomplished the removal of:

-- Hundreds of spent batteries by "archaeological excavation" of old campsites.

-- One hundred spent fuel canisters.

-- 135 spent oxygen cylinders from the South Col.

-- A total of 1400 pounds of trash.

After collecting and sorting, all the above was carried by yak caravan down to Namche Bazaar so burnables could be incinerated under supervision of the Sagarmatha Pollution Control Project (Ang Dorjee Sherpa site manager), and the balance helicoptered to Kathmandu, and finally shipped to the US via Calcutta for recycling.

Current Ecological Status of Everest Campsites. Basecamp (17,600 feet) is no longer the "garbage dump" that it was 10 or more years ago. The Ministry of Tourism of Nepal has imposed significant regulations on camp cleanliness, etc. There is still work to be done here, but the truth is that more cleanup is needed higher on the mountain where it is obviously much more difficult to accomplish.

Camp I (20,000 feet) is on snow at the entrance to the Western Cwm and any debris tends to disappear into the Khumbu glacier. Thus, the camp is visually clean each year, although the glacier must digest the trash.

Camp II (21,500 feet) is on rock and is quite messy, littered with cans, tent pieces, etc. Also, Camp II serves as an Advanced Base Camp, and has far more activity than Camps I or III.

Camp III (24,000 feet) is smack on the Lhotse face, on ice and snow, and like Camp I, debris disappears each year.

Camp IV (26,000 feet) is at the famous South Col. This incredible barren and rocky place is normally free of snow (due to the hurricane force winds), but the winds do not remove tent fragments and the hundreds of emptied oxygen bottles discarded there. It is truly a discouraging sight (for a picture, go to the Store page and click on the oxygen bottle). We want to correct this! See our Mission page for details.

Thought that whole thing was fascinating.

Katie, where are we now in the Krakauer book? I was thinking it was Krakauer who was given angry glances by Fischer's wife at Fischer's memorial service, but I bet I've got my climbers mixed up. Have finished Boukreev's book and am going to look for him on the internet, to see how he died.

Ginny

It would seem that an avalanche took the life of Anatoli Boukreev (who was the Russian Guide on Scott Fischer's team making the ascent the same day with Krakauer). And just a few months ago: January 8, 1998.

Here are the details: Boukreev Missing

Fine looking man, only 39 years old.

Ginny

Ginny: I would bet, after reading his book, that the only way Boukreev would have died in the mountains is by avalanche. I think it's clear that he was an extraordinary climber, with almost superhuman high-altitude ability. Very sad and I wonder if inevitable.

As to the team currently climbing, certainly knowing each other, having one (or two) persons in charge, and understanding rules about who does what, when to turn back, etc., will minimize the danger, Everest will be Everest, and 8,000 meters plus will be mind-numbing, with or without oxygen. It's flirting with the fates to assume all will be well. If anything has made that lesson clear, it's the book we area reading now, and those lives lost that have taught that lesson. I sensed a bit of smugness on the current site that I assume they did not intend. Do you think I'm unfair?

If you've been following the climb on the Everest Environmental Expedition, you'll see that they had a close call just the other day. A storm, a lone climber, nightfall, and a rescue. I wonder why on earth they don't all carry radios. Perhaps they don't work well in the mountains?

Katie, no, I had noticed the same thing, about the smugness: "past teams have done ***** but we have taken steps to do ******* and learn from their mistakes," etc. No, I noticed it, too, but I think it's inevitable, as I bet people, upon hearing they are attempting it, have shocked reactions.

I also agree that it would take a freak of nature to get Boukreev, felt really sorry that he had died. Do you really think it inevitable? He had gone up so many, many times. Do you think he would have kept on until he DID fail?

I think the Boukreev book will be a vaulable contrast when we get further into the Krakauer book, and am already enjoying the points and the differences in Krakauer on my second go-round.

In Chapter 3, for instance, Krakauer surveys the group and declares "in outlook and experience they were nothing like the hard-core climbers with whom I usually went into the mountains. But they seemed like nice, decent folks, and there wasn't a certifiable a.....among them."

Later he explains how climbers rely on each other: "The consequences of a poorly tied knot, a stumble, a dislodged rock, or some other careless deed are as likely to be felt by the perpetrator's colleagues as the perpetrator." And then makes the startling, to me anyway, declaration: "But trust in one's partners is a luxury denied those who sign on as clients on a guided ascent; one must put one's faith in the guide instead."

Now, if the entire group is roped to each other, and the chain is only as strong as the weakest link, how come all of a sudden the GUIDES are the ones who are responsible for the client's welfare? Having read Into the Wild by Krakauer, I'm trying to be very alert for his rationalizations, which occur frequently. I'd like to call him on them when I see them, but you CALL me when you think I'm wrong.

As for the phones, I thought they had all learned from the Fischer expedition to have the latest equipment, and thought this new group DID. Going to look at it now, very nerve wracking, hope they all come down alive, too!!

Ginny

Ginny- as you know by now, the climber is safe, and I assume some of the smugness has been erased by that experience.

In chapter six, Krakauer starts out describing the ascent of Everest as "a long tedious process, more like a mammoth construction project than climbing as I'd previously known it." And that seems very apt, considering that they had to establish four different camps, and move people and equipment and food up and down between camps over and over again for the acclimitization process. Tedious and uncomfortable.

The Khumbu ice fall sounds (and looks) terrifying. "No part of the South Col route was feared more by climbers." And it's here, Ginny, that Krakauer answers your questions about climbers being tied together. Because of the demanding nature of the ice fall, there was a fixed rope from the bottom to the top of the ice fall and each climber attached themselves to it, not to each other, and thus they didn't have "to entrust our lives to teammates whose skill and experience were unknown."

Somewhere I saw a picture of Yasuko Namba crawling on a series of ladders lashed together across a deep chasm in the ice fall. I can't find it in either this book or The Climb, so I must have seen it somewhere else. It looks absolutely awful. I don't think I could do that unless my life literally depended on it. One would have to have such trust in the person who lashed the ladders together!

Ella, Is it time to do Chapters 7, 8, and 9 ??. With so many discussions in progress, it's hard to keep track of where we are in which book.

Chapters seven thru nine seem to have an underlying theme of impending disaster. An early "Crowding up" of spottily qualified climbers and leaders, an undertow of dishonesty in the Taiwanese and South African groups, a brain dead Sherpa, Physical difficulties for so many of the climbers which would have dissuaded me right then and there, and anxiety on the part of the Buddhist Sherpas precipitated by "SEX" (Its with us everywhere - a side effect of "Women's Lib.").

I'd title this segment of the book "The Thread of Disaster"

? Best

I want to know where we are, too?? Speaking of physical difficulties, the amputee climber, Tom Whittaker is about to ascend, and he's on the Internet, too. Saw an article on him in People Magazine, the latest issue. Want to see if I can find his site.

The IMAX film "Everest" is in Charlotte!! The demand to see it is so great, they are scheduling it all day long and at night at the end of the week. I've got to see it, will try to go next week and tell you all what it's about.

Iv'e got this interview with Krakauer, which I've been saving and will just put a little here from time to time, it's so long:

Interviewer: Unlike your previous book Into the Wild you were a primary part of the story in Into Thin Air . Did it make you uncomfortable as a journalist to write yourself into the story to the degree that you did?

Krakauer: It made me extremely uncomfortable, no question about it. But there's noe scaping the fact htat when disaster struck I happened t be at ground zero. I ha the misfortune of being an active participant in the tragedy, and it would have been ludicrous for me to pretend to write about it as a totally objective, dispassionate observer. That sort of emotional distance, the cool, disinterested remove that journalists typically adopt as their persona in print, was a luxury denied to me because of my direct involvement in the calamity. I admire the authority of being on one's kneew in front of the event...Into Thin Air is a very personal, very raw, very emotional book. I wrote it because I was up there when the s....hit, and I felt an overwhelming need to tell what happened."

It's an interesting article, going off to try to find the Whittaker site, too.

Katie, I think you ARE right about the ropes, hadn't thought of that. There's ONE photo in Boukreev of somebody apparently RUNNING across those chain ladders, not me. Would be scooting on rear as Namba did.

Ginny

Well, apparently history repeats itself, apparently there are plenty of expeditions trying for the summit right NOW. Found several sites mentioning Tom Whittaker, saying nothing had been heard since April 19th, but this site seems to know the most: Everest 98 .

I hope we won't see another tragedy in the making.

Ginny

I think you hit the nail on the head, LJ, with your characterization of chapters 7 - 10 as the "Thread of Disaster." Chapter 7, in particular, makes is clear that many people on the mountain that spring had no business being there. The Taiwanese, that maniac Ian Woodhall, and even some members of Hall's team. I looked online for the South African expedition's site and found it, but unfortunately they have taken down the threaded discussion. It was fascinating to follow the disintegration of the South African team as Woodhall got crazier and crazier. I remember very distinctly the outrage and horror when Woodhall refused to give food and shelter to the Times reporters that were supposed to be covering his team (the Times was the major sponsor of the South African team). After three members of Woodhall's team quit as Base Camp, they came online to explain their actions, and that's when Woodhall went completely nuts and became very abusive.

I liked that Krakauer was at least self-conscious about being a reporter and sensitive ( - if only belatedly) to the fact that although Rob Hall might be thrilled to have the publicity, the other climbers on the team might not be similarly thrilled. I wonder if the other members of the team resented it as soon as they found out about a reporter in their midst. It seems to me that full disclosure should have been made to them before the expedition. Climbing Everest is difficult enough without that added distraction/pressure.

Things fall apart....

Despite the 5/7 date, it appears the last news from the current Everest Expedition was on May 2, when they had descended to the base camp to await changes in the weather. I've not heard anything on the news?

So in Chapter 9 we've got the Sandy Pittman thing, the Sherpas are unhappy, omens abound. We don't see much more of this, tho. I wonder if the quote at the beginning of Chapter 10 is true: Do Americans have "no inherent national sympathy for mountain climbing?" What is the American attitude toward mountain climbing? Is there one?

I think it's nice that the various teams, with the exception of Woodall, agreed as to which teams would try the summit on the 10th. This Sunday, Mother's Day, is the 10th again, seems a prime time for the ascent. It's kind of breathless to watch along with those now climbing...but I wonder why Hall called Woodall's team "punters," when his own was not exactly the best.

Ginny

Ginny - I think it's true that Americans lack the feel or 'sympathy' for mountain climbing that Europeans have. It's just not part of our national culture. Baseball - yes. Mountain climbing - no.

There's yet another expedition going up now and it has a wonderful site. Expedition '98 has some wonderful photographs, and if you have the patience, some good streaming video. There is one photo of the Balcony (also known as the false summit) that shows just how narrow the trail to the summit is. It's VERY difficult to image being on it in bad weather. It appears that all the teams currently on Everest are enjoying excellent weather. Summit attempts will be made starting tomorrow - I think.

Chapter 11 discusses Bourkreev and contains the part in which Krakauer talks about Fischer's disappointment with Bourkeev's poor social skills. In his book, Bourkeev admitted that Fischer confronted him on this point, and agreed that partly because of his poor English, and partly because of his personality, he wasn't the kind of 'feelgood' guy that Fischer wanted. Bourkeev thought he had been hired for his skills as a climber, not as a handholder. Bourkeev says, "If client cannot climb Everest without big help from guide, this client should not be on Everest. Otherwise there can be big problems up high." Which, of course, storm or no storm, is exactly what happened.

Happy Mother's Day!

Katie, that IS a good site, and it has a photo, too, of the metal ladders stretched across gorges.

I went to the site in the heading, and got this report:

5/10-CLEANUP PROGRESS AMID HIGH WINDS. [Chuck Demarest reports the following from base camp.] It's Sunday and high winds are still over the peak. A number of tents have been blown down at camp II at about noon today. No overwhelming damage, but Brad Bull and PV happened to be there at told us it was quite a sudden wind storm. At the moment they are staying there huddling up with some Sherpa in our cook tent. We are hoping for the jet stream to move off the mountain in a couple of days. In spite of the bad weather we have now recovered over 50 oxygen bottles from the Col and other teams are cooperating with us in bringing down more.

So I guess they are not going to be able to set out today. Want to go to your new site and see if they left!

Yes, here we have Fischer and Boukreev, and I'm not remembering this in Boukreev's book, but maybe he didn't KNOW Fischer had complained about him? Makes what happened at Fischer's end even more poignant, doesn't it? Since he told the Sherpas that Toli will get me, he will save me, and then poor Boukreev, who could NOT get any of Rob Halls expedition including our author, to help him, went to save as many of the clients as he could first, thinking Fischer could hold on longer.

I do wonder at Krakauer blaiming Boukreev for Fisher's condition, when, from all accounts, Fischer had not been himself on the trip. Apparently Fischer was greatly loved. I am sorry he died.

Here's Krakauer in the interview for the QPB, a division of the Book of the Month Club:

" Question: If you were standing at Everest Base Camp right now, and a climber was walking pst, heading up the mountain, hoping to climb it, what would you say to him or her?"

Krakauer: Probably nothing. Climbing is all about taking responsibility for one's own actions, about making personal choices. It's not my place to tell anybody else whether or not they should try to climb Everest. So I'd try to bite my tongue. But inwardly I'd want to grab them by the shoulders, look into their eyes, and urge them to look deep inside, to ask themselves some tough questions."

Going to see if the other teams have left on their way up!

Ginny

Chapters ten, eleven, and twelve have a clear theme of summarizing all (to date) of the little things which contribute to the disaster. i.e. the last sentence, "...didn't seem like a particularly serious mistake at the time, but it would end up being one of many little things ---a slow accrual, compounding steadily and imperceptibly toward critical mass."

This theme is divided between circumstances and personal failings and a subtle return to the theme of inadequite individual physical qualifications.

Best

I just looked in at the Everest Expedition site, and the news is of very bad weather. Apparently no lives are in danger. Just about everyone on the mountain, excepting two Sherpas at Camp II, are down at base camp. Here's the report from May 11:

5/11-FIERCE STORM HITS EVEREST--CLIMB IN DOUBT [Jamie Ross reports the following from Base Camp] Due to poor weather in recent days, many of our climbers have spent time at Base Camp resting and waiting for a break that will allow them to start the climb up the mountain. One of our climbers, P.V. Scaturro, and Brad Bull, a climber from the Lhotse expedition who summitted Everest on our '95 expedition, decided to head up to Camp II on May 10 to maintain their acclimatization and check on the team's gear. Climbers at Base Camp noted heavy clouds moving up the valley throughout the morning, while other team members who were down-valley at Gorak Shep observed extremely high winds and threatening cloud cover moving over the summit pyramid of Mt. Everest.

As P.V. and Brad pulled into Camp II, the storm being observed by expedition members off the mountain slammed into the camp bringing with it ferocious winds and blinding snows. They quickly secured the team's equipment and tents as best they could and turned back to begin the return journey to Base Camp, where they arrived safely at 6:00 pm. P.V. and Brad succeeded in securing our equipment for the time being, however, by 10:00 pm that night, the jet stream once again descended with even greater force, once again ravaging the camp and the equipment of all teams who were established there. Our one climbing Sherpa at Camp II, Mingma Sherpa, spent the night in the storm and did what he could to minimize damage. Early this morning we heard from Mingma who told us that all but three of our tents had been lost. Apparently the winds were so strong that even our well-secured tents were torn from their anchors and blown down the Western Cwm. Mingma also reported that our dining tent has been completely destroyed. News from other teams suggests that no one was spared from the storm and that equipment losses were extremely high. At this point, our team is devastated and anxious to learn the extent of the damage at Camp II. We are also quite concerned about our equipment higher up on the mountain at Camps III and IV. Winds were likely more severe higher up, leading us to believe that our tents at these higher camps may have sustained significant damage.

In the words of team leader Bob Hoffman, "we are now more determined thanever to climb this mountain, even if it means sharing what little resources remain at each of the camps". Our plan now is to assess the damage and losses at each of the camps. Each of the teams has agreed to assist the others in locating equipment that has been blown from high camps around the Western Cwm. The level of cooperation is high and in the tradition of helping fellow mountaineers, each team is committed to assisting the others in their recovery from this terrible storm.

There is a much more optimistic report from the MountainZone Expedition '98 camp. They report the same poor weather, but say that spirits are up, that they will just be patient and wait the weather out. They also are much more optimistic about recovering equipment blown about in the storm. I've put a link to this site in the heading and it is well worth your time to take a look at it. Isn't the difference in attitude between the two expeditions interesting?

Back in our book, everything is beginning to unravel as the various expeditions begin their summit attempts. Besides the impending storm, what do you think was the one critical factor that led to the deaths of these people?

I have a strong opinion, but would be very interested to hear what yours is.

Katie

Good question, but I can't answer it without skipping ahead.

Best

The one critical factor? Boy, I love questions like that...without looking back, I'd say the lack of organization. I mean, I don't think they were physically fit, but I think proper radios and organization might have overcome that somewhat.

Ginny

Now LJ, I know you read this book ages ago, but perhaps you are right and I'm jumping the gun. But as I looked through chapters 11-13, one glaring danger signal seemed to jump out.

No definite time for turn-around.

The climbers had no set time, no agreed upon rule, no one person to turn around those climbers who were attempting the summit too late in the day. Scott Fischer was completely overloaded; Toli had already headed down; Hall was involved with helping individuals. Who was in charge here?

So - climbers kept going up as the day passed, and the storm began to gather. Do you think the outcome could have been avoided if there were a clearcut cut-off time - even if there was no one to enforce it?

Katie: YES! You are right, you are all ahead of me, but you are right. Yes, they staggered up, keeping on, and wasn't there some question about Hanson? or Hansen? The Postal Worker? He had intended to go down, but he DIDN'T!! And why not??

You are right!

Going to see what the new expedition is doing today.

Ginny

Here we go again?? Mountain Madness takes over??

Everest Environmental Expedition '98

Recent N E W S and P H O T O S

5/12-WEATHER CONTINUES TO PLAGUE CLIMB [Didrik Johnck reports the following from base camp.] After possibly the worst bout of weather on the mountain this season, the team awoke to cloudless skies this morning. Extremely low temperatures continue to remain on the mountain and in Base Camp. The lowest temperature of the season was recorded last night at nine degrees Fahrenheit. The team spent a suspenseful morning yesterday watching the jet stream tear snow off the west ridge of Everest and Nuptse and wondering what was happening in Camps II and III. In the afternoon a heavy snowstorm descended on the mountain lasting 8 hours and depositing 4 to 6 inches of snow in Base Camp. This is the most snow I have ever seen in Base Camp; more than we had in 92 or 95. Everest veteran Dr. Sherman Bull reported. With the status of our upper camps still in doubt due to the high winds experienced on the 10th and 11th, yesterdays snowstorm most likely has buried what equipment was blown around the Western Cwm during the past few days. During the raking of our upper camps by the high winds, heroic efforts by Mingma Sherpa at Camp II may have saved the majority of the teams equipment. Based on radio communication with Mingma, it appears that equipment damage sustained by the team is substantially less than other teams on the mountain. However, due to the heavy snowfall and the resulting avalanche danger, the team is currently waiting at Base Camp for a chance to move up to Camp II to assess the true extent of the damage. With the weather continuing to plague the teams ability to move up the mountain, the team remains extremely anxious to begin our summit push at the first sign of stable weather. The summit push cannot happen until the lost or damaged equipment at Camps II and III is replaced. Assuming a spell of good weather moves in soon the team will begin moving up the mountain to assess the condition of Camps II and III. At the present moment the team is resolute in its determination to complete this climb regardless of what Mother Nature throws our way.

2:00 P.M. "At the latest" was the turn around time.

Best

L.J.

Ginny - thanks for posting the update. Remember that in the Bourkeev book he talked about what a bad thing fresh snow is? Not because of avalanche so much, but because it's SO difficult to make it to the summit if one has to fight one's way through drifts. Those people up there now must be a bit demoralized.

LJ - I remember the 2 o'clock time too, but there was no one to reinforce that time. Krakauer writes (p. 177), " By mid-morning on May 10, Hall still hadn't announced what our turn-around time would actually be. Hutchinson....was operating on the assumption that it would be 1:00pm. Around 11:00, Hall told Hutchison and Taske that the top was still three hours away, and then he sprinted to try and get past the Taiwanese." At 11:30 am., three men turned around, and as Krakauer wrote, "Taske, Hutchinson, Kasischke and Fischbeck had each spent as much as $70,000 and endured weeks of agony to be granted this one shot at the summit. All were ambitious men, unaccustomed to losing and even less to quitting. And yet, faced with a tough decision, they were among the few who made the right choice that day."

So, if Hall did set a two o'clock turn-around, he failed to stress its importance or to enforce it with his team. But perhaps it's unfair to assign the blame to one aspect, when there's a good chance that all might have made it down, even in darkness, had the weather stayed calm. The other danger with a late climb, of course, is running out of oxygen before reaching camp, which is what happened to Krakauer.

KATIE. I agree with you but the question was, what was the one key error. The outside limit of 2:00 P.M. had been clearly stated although not reinforced, as you point out.

Hall did not abide by his own stricture (That's reading ahead) so no one else can be blamed for the one key error which would have saved the whole expedition.

Best

Nothing this am more from the Environmental Expedition, lots on the 98 site, including the somewhat startling news that yet ANOTHER team is making an ascent from the Northern side of Everest, and it's all there in the 98 site, a really good site.

There WAS this dated Wednesday:

Wally Berg called this morning to wish Andy Fischer (Scott Fischer's son) a happy birthday, and to say that high winds continue to delay summit attempts. Team Sherpa's have chosen to move up to Camp III to assess the damage, and Berg is thinking about moving up the mountain himself tomorrow. The team's new tentative summit date is May 20th, though it is still weather-dependent, and London forecasts predict for the Jet Stream to move back over Everest. (Transcript to Come)

COMPLETE INDEX OF DISPATCHES

Ginny

For some reason, I'm beginning to hope they turn around:

Everest 98:

Everest Environmental Expedition '98

Recent N E W S and P H O T O S

5/13-MINGMA SHERPA SAVES THE DAY! [The following anonymous report was received from Base Camp.] After an anxious day spent wondering about the status of our Camp II equipment we have finally received news that, thanks to the heroic efforts of one of our climbing Sherpas, all of our gear was saved! On May 10th, after Brad Bull and P.V. Scaturro left Camp II, Mingma Sherpa stayed behind. As mentioned in a previous update, a second storm hit the camp at around 10:00 pm. Seeing that the storm seriously threatened our camp, Mingma left the comfort of his tent and, in pitch blackness, in 80-100 mile per hour winds, single-handedly took down all of our tents and covered them with heavy rocks. The strong winds continued to hammer the camp all night, but thanks to the work of Mingma, none of our equipment was lost. On May 13th, once the new snowpack had stabilized we were able to send some climbers and Sherpas up to Camp II to assess the damage. Don Beavon, the first climber to arrive on the scene said that upon first inspection, he "could not believe the devastation the camp had sustained. Equipment from many teams was strewn around the camp and many tents were completely shredded". After a more thorough assessment of the damage however, Don reported that all of our equipment was still in place, although soaking wet, thanks to the efforts of Mingma on the night of the 10th. As two more of our climbers arrived at Camp II (Chuck Huss and Mark Cole) the reconstruction of Camp II began. Although our climbers were exhausted, Don, Chuck and Mark put forth an incredible effort in assisting our Sherpas in repairing the damage. In the end, it was once again the Sherpa team who saved the day. By the 6:00 pm radio call they reported that they had completely restored Camp II, and that all repairs had been completed! We were indeed fortunate to have Mingma Sherpa up at Camp II on the night of 10th. He literally saved the expedition by preventing the loss of the team's valuable high-altitude gear, and we all owe him a great debt of thanks for his heroic efforts. Our thanks also go once again to our incredible Sherpa team and to Don, Chuck and Mark for their efforts at Camp II! Unfortunately, other teams were not as fortunate as us. At least two other teams sustained significant damage at Camp II with tents and equipment lost and/or destroyed. At this point we are unsure of the extent of the damage at higher camps (III and IV), however, Apa Sherpa, our climbing Sirdar, observed from Camp II that our Camp III tents appeared to be intact. We will know more in the next day as our Sherpa team moves up to these higher camps. Recent weather observations indicate a general improvement in the weather, with three consecutive days of weakening winds and rising temperatures. Team members are optimistic, hoping that the summit attempt may begin in the next few days.

Ginny

So, it seems fairly clear, a Sherpa has saved Base Camp II for this expedition? So what happened to the rely on yourself bit? Couldn't help but think of Boukreev, who saved lives, not tents, and who got no press that I was aware of at the time for it.

Going to look at the other site.

Ginny

Looks like the Everest 98 people are going for it! The EE's are holding back a bit.

This next section of the book seems to contain some very disturbing and sad news, and I hope we can compare versions of what happened, particularly to Namba, on this climb.

I was really surprised in this book and the other as well by the lack of elation and triumph people seem to feel upon summiting Everest. I guess the lack of oxygen plays a part there, too. Still, I thought Krakauer made it painfully clear about each sort of underwater step. He's a good writer.

Ginny

In this weeks chapters, the two O'Clock turn around time is further discussed and clarified. (p200). If those who had not reached the top by 2:00 P,M. had all turned around at that time, none would have been trapped or lost.

Best

The Environmental team has headed up to Camp III too, but they do sound a little less certain of an attempt than the Mountain Zone team. Quite a few members of the EE team had to help a Sherpa whose femur was broken by falling ice above Camp III. There were no medical supplies, so they had to fashion makeshift splint until supplies could be brought up. I can't even begin to imagine the pain that poor man must have been in.

LJ - it seems the pecking order among the guides was just about as important as the turn-around time. Beidleman says that he would have turned people back, but just didn't feel he had the authority. And by now, of course, Fischer was not capable of leadership. I wonder why, feeling as ill as he did, that he felt he needed to make it to the top. Wouldn't it have been enough if his clients made it?

Doesn't it appear that Beidleman was a hero? He kept the small group of feeble climbers together, and made the decision to go for help.

Poor Namba - it seems that without oxygen and in that storm (wind chill at -100!), she just couldn't survive.

It's also in this chapter that Boukreev gets heavy criticism. "One of the clients from that group (Fischer's) has nothing but contempt for Boukreev, insisting that when it mattered most, the guide 'cut and ran.'" Aside from the questionable ethics of issuing such an accusation without the willingness to be identified, do you think there was any justification for it?

I hate to say yes lest I encounter Ginny's wrath and the pitch of her voice begins to rise (still way short of hysteria) I thought Krakauer tried to present B's side of the debate, but his (B's) efforts were more after the fact than aimed at insuring a safe climb for his clients.

Best

Haven't had time to get in here lately, but- did any of you catch ABC's Nightline last evening? All about one of the present teams attempt and a lot of interesting stuff about body sensors and such. A lot of advances have been made in communications since the '96 season, it seems. Just a comment about the sherpa who saved the tents - the tents held a lot of their equipment which could in turn save lives, so saving 'tents not lives" is a perfectly commendable task, IMHO .

Julia - I did see that report. MIT and Yale have developed something called a 'bio-pack' that the climbers wears on his chest. It is designed to track and transmit the climber's heart rate, blood oxygen, and other vital signs that I can't remember. I just went to Expedition 98's site where there is a story about this. Unfortunately, the bio-packs failed to transmit once the climbers passed the dreaded icefall.

Here is the latest from the MountainZone Exp.98 group:

Mountain Zone, this is Dave Mencin. Well, although it's still a perfect day here not a cloud in the sky, not very much wind the conditions have turned out to be very bad past the South Summit. There are several teams up there that have decided to turn around. They did not have enough equipment and the right equipment to fix the route. They ended up using a lot more equipment than they thought was needed up to that point, and they think they need a lot more to finish it.

The current plan is, since Wally's back, is that Wally will attempt to summit tomorrow with a smaller team, another American team, with the right equipment.

I will give some dispatches from the climbers. Right now, everyone is trying to get down safely. As soon as they're down safely at the South Col, I will get some dispatches from them and find out what the rest of the story is. Talk to you later.

According to the Environmental Exp., the equipment that the climbers were missing was rope. They didn't have enough to create the vital fixed rope trail. Knowing what we all know now, that seems odd, doesn't it?

LJ - I can't agree with the person who accused Bourkeev of a cut and run. He DID go down before the other climbers, but not out of fear. He was in excellent shape, the weather had not yet begun to deteriorate. I believe him when he wrote that he did not feel his job was to 'escort' the climbers. I think that had he known that so many people were going to start falling apart due to lack of oxygen (due to very late summit attempts), he would have stayed up there to assist. I think too, that he thought that Fischer had everything well in hand. I read on one of the current expedition sites that they are now using satellite phones instead of radios and are having much better communication between climbers and camps. A little better communication probably could have saved lots of lives a couple of years ago.

It will be fun to check out those sites tomorrow and see how these teams did on their summit attempts today.

Yes, I agree with Katie, and think this is all very exciting. Isn't it the EE's who were just a little smug at the beginning?

The poor phones certainly paid a big part in this tragedy, and yet the nex expeditions have phones and still have problems....

Julia: no, I didn't get to see it, darn it. That HAPE and HACE are terrifying. I would want to know if I were about to fall over dead, for sure.

LJ: Well, I figure I'm gaining: I'm not "shrill" anymore, and now am just voice rising but not hysterical! hahahahah You, my learned friend, have NO IDEA just HOW hysterical I really am! hahahahah

Or do you??

hahahahah

Listen, I really really need to know what chapters we are RIGHT NOW discussing? I remember wanting to compare the books, but seem to be on a different chapter?

Do tell??

Ginny

Ginny, I think we're doing chapters 13-15 thru the 24th., but we've not felt any compunction to be rigid and I suspect the discussion will continue thru the present ongoing assault on the mountain regardless.

I've been suffering a major computer overhaul and following yesterday's and last night's power failure here (Including no water for several days and trees blocking the roads) I've become a bit "Discombobulated"

Best

P.S. Reading "Tuesdas with M." helps.

After checking in at the two Everest sites, it appears that everyone made it up and down in good time and good health. It was interesting to read on the EE site that the last person in their team to reach the summit got there at 12:30 pm. Everyone was down well before dark.

I haven't been good about putting forth a schedule, so LJ's suggestion of chapters 13-15 until the 24th is perfect.

Chapter 12 begins the climb. The team leaves camp at 11:30pm (the same time as the current teams did). "Within three hours of leaving the Col, Frank (Fischbeck) decided that something about the day just didn't feel right. Stepping out of the queue, he turned around and descended to the tents. His fourth attempt to climb Everest was over."

This chapter also introduces the subject of Hall's insistance that the group stay close together during the climb, and thus forcing stronger climbers to stop and wait repeatedly for the slower ones. Does it seem as if there is a inherent conflict in the client/guide/client relationship?

Oh heck, I missed both their ascents, going to look. I've wondered about the "wait for the slower ones." That's nice when you're out for a walk, but in a case where it can cost not only your life but the life of the others, it seems to me that the clients ought to be paired together with guides to their ability? It would be fairly easy to test ability if they all followed Boukreev's suggestion to go way up and then way way down to rest, and then back up, tho it sounds like it would wear you out...if you did that you'd see immediately who matched who?

Ginny

Well, it does appear that they did get up, the EE, anyway, weather clear, each with a Sherpa, that was good. The other site has not been available this am, so will try later.

But in our sad tale, the events begin to unfold which will lead to doom: Namba nearly escapes pulling Biedelman off the slope, has trouble with the ropes.

No ropes are set, nobody knows why. Accusations abound.

Beck Weathers sits down to await help in descending.

Andy Harris reports the oxygen bottles are empty.

Then we hear of Scott Fischer's "attacks" he suffered in Seattle, ...what could that have been? Malaria like symptoms?? Intense sweating? Shakes? 10-15 minutes and then pass? Poor guy. Liver cyst?? Chapter 15 says that he was getting them every day in Base Camp and that he left Camp Four perhaps as late as 1am.Beidleman indeed seems a hero, and here we hear of Boukreev and Hutchinson's attempts at rescue. Boukreev never came to Krakauer's tent, he says, I'm going to read the Boukreev again and see what he says about that.

Wonder why they could only take one at a time back down? In the end, Boukreev came back up, grabbed Pittman, and Madsen stumbled down behind them...?

Ginny

Heckers, me again?? A three peat?? Just have to say I know you all saw the news that the gentleman with one leg, Mr. Whittaker, made it to the top of Everest.

Yesterday I was watching Discover (or Discovery) channel, and was shocked to see an Avalanche right before my eyes! It was horrendous!! It's a whole program on them, and you MUST see it, if you can. They started by saying all the skiiers we'd see lived, and then panned to three skiiers suddenly being swept away, horrifying.

Said that avalanches travel 150-200 mph, and have chunks of ice as big as houses in them. Showed three kinds, one of which, the wet avalanche, looks like a waterfall.

Have never seen anything like it.

Ginny

Ginny - I heard the news about Whitaker just this morning. Good for him - and a point made, I guess. He must be in excellent shape.

Not so lucky was an American climber on the north side. I found this on the MountainZone site this morning:

American Climber Reported Dead On North Side of Everest Sunday, May 24, 1998 North Side Base Camp, Rongbuk Glacier, Tibet. Russian climbers in base camp on the northern (Tibetan) side of Everest report that an American has died on the Northeast Ridge route. The Mountain Zone is waiting to confirm details, but initial reports suggest the climber and a partner summited two days ago (May 22, 1998 NPT) without the use of supplemental oxygen after three nights above 8000 meters. Descending, the two spent a night high on the mountain without a tent, and in the morning, the climber was missing.

The partner continued to descend and reported the missing climber to an Uzbekistan team (Oleg Grigoriev, Andrei Fedorov, Sergei Sokolov, Svetlana making their bid yesterday. The team later found the climber alive but unresponsive above the First Step on the Northeast Ridge. While the other three went on to the summit, Grigoriev and Fedorov stayed with the climber and attempted to offer oxygen and medical assistance guided over radio by doctors in base camp. Aided by Sherpas and climbers from a South American team, they lowered the victim over 100 meters, but the climber is reported to have died around 11am yesterday, May 23, 1998 NPT.

Hearing about the death, the partner is reported to have started back up the route and has not been seen since though his ice ax and rope are believed to have been found.

The Mountain Zone will report more as soon as confirmed information is available.

All the highlights are mine. Without oxygen? Without a tent? And did the surviving climber really head back UP the route? Krakauer's description of the effects of oxygen deprivation on the thinking process is so vivid that it seems insane to be a that altitude without supplemental oxygen.

The question of why only one climber at a time was brought down is answered on page 214, I think. " As soon as Borkreev found the group, it became obvious to him that he could bring only one climber in at a time." He had to practically carry them in. What incredible stamina he must have had.

Katie, O NO! Is the Mountain Zone the ones who were smug?? Or are they the ones coming up the North side?? I'm thinking the EE's were the smug ones, and they're all down.

On the Boukreev, yes, I did see that, but when Boukreev was taking one of them down, then this ???Hansen??? can't look back at my post, came along by himself, thus, I'm thinking, proving that he could have gone down before.

Oh my goodness, another tragedy. I hate that.

Ginny

Gues WHAT the #1 summer reading book Amazon is pushing? INTO THIN AIR, of course! ha!!

Where are you all?

Four people died last month climbing the north side. Apparently all deaths were very preventable and nothing to do with unpredictable weather or bad luck. Two of the dead were a husband/wife team. She was American, and wanted to be the first American woman to summit without oxygen, and her husband was Russian. Both were very experienced climbers, but had no oxygen and spent three nights above 7000 meters with no tent. The names of the other two dead haven't been released, but one seems to have been Austrailian.

There's a site called Everest News that is still covering the climbing season as it winds down.

As we bring this discussion to a close, just days after four more people died on Everest, what do you think the lessons are here? Would you support restrictions on who climbs, how they climb? In the latest deaths, two members of a Russian team gave up their summit attempt to try and save the life of the American woman. Was her attempt, without oxygen, fair to others on the mountain? What responsibility does the international climbing community have here? Any?