Child's Christmas in Wales, A ~ Dylan Thomas ~ 12/01
jane
November 1, 2001 - 03:32 pm
A Child's Christmas In Wales
By Dylan Thomas


Laugharne - Village by the sea, home of Dylan Thomas.


Dylan Thomas recalls all of the sights, smells, and sounds of a long-ago Christmas.
He confers great pleasure in our personal and common memory
while affirming life with a resounding "Yes!"

Get comfortable - Do you have your eggnog or glass of holiday brew?
Click on either link and read Dylan Thomas' short story.

A Child's Christmas In Wales || A Child's Christmas In Wales

  • What are your thoughts about the inclusion of the variety of sometimes eccentric charactors in this story?
  • How does this story affirm life?
  • Is the repetition of snow throughout the story aiding the author's message.
  • Does the story invite you to remember one of your own holiday experiences? (Christmas or other Holiday) How about sharing with us the remembered bits and pieces of your childhood.


|| Dylan Thomas Biography ||
|| Trina Schart Hyman; Illustrator of the current publication. ||
|| Complete Dylan Thomas: includes audio link of his poems ||
|| The "craft and sullen art" of Dylan Thomas ||
|| The Craft And Art Of Dylan Thomas: includes, Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night. ||
|| Everything Welsh || Wander through Swansea ||
|| Christmas Traditions in the British Isles ||

Discussion Leader was
Barbara St. Aubrey



Click B&N logo to buy the book
  Click the box to suggest a book
for future discussion!

Malryn (Mal)
November 4, 2001 - 08:10 am
Hooray! One of my favorite works. Count me in!

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 4, 2001 - 05:52 pm
Malryn this should be fun with you joining us - Oh isn't this a wonderful story with such a way with words I have to wonder if it is a story or a piece of poetry. And fun - the characters are just too wonderful. The more I read the story the more irony I see in the message and yet it encourges so much memory...of my own winter holidays.

Jo Meander
November 5, 2001 - 06:54 pm
I taught this for years! Just love it -- the kids seemed to enjoy it, too. I think it's a story and a poem!

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 5, 2001 - 10:27 pm
Jo what an asset you will be - teaching this - how wonderful - have not found any cliff notes or other critique anywhere - this can be enjoyed on so many levels don't you think - this will be a quickie discussion of only a few weeks but hopefully reading Dylan Thomas will put us in the mood to resurrect what is important about our own celebrations.

Jo Meander
November 7, 2001 - 04:56 pm
Barbara, I hope others join us! It's so dear to me, I can't imagine anyone not enjoying it. It's short too, so anyone who has time issues around the holidays can join in the fun without getting bogged down in a long read!

Nellie Vrolyk
November 9, 2001 - 01:12 pm
Barbara, I'll do my best to join in. Will there be a link to the online version? (she asks hopefully)

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 11, 2001 - 02:40 pm
YES Nellie, in fact two links to two different on-line sites with the complete story - one even has photoes of Dylan Thomas and the area of his home. So glad you will be joining us.

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 24, 2001 - 04:31 pm
Welcome to this discussion as we read this delightful warm story. We are about to enter the land of Dylan Thomas, a poetic writer expressing in a simple naive heartwarming warmth of spirit more than his childhood Christmas.

Collected are some links to all things Dylan Thomas and Wales. These links will allow you a bit more additional information about British Christmas lore, countryside views, Wales and the collections of Dylan's wonderful poems.

If you find any additional sites we should know about - please share them with us.

Pull up a chair and share with us - much as if we had stopped in a café for a Holiday gathering of friends. Old or new friends we will be hanging on your every word.

Most of us live differently than Dylan Thomas during the 1930s in Wales but many of us have our sentimental traditions as well as memories fun, crazy, poignant. Let's look at our stories, add them to this delightful story and also, let's look at what other theme is hidden amid the snow and holiday banter of Dylan's childhood Christmas in Wales.

Yes, this read is a real token of love to our spirit. It will give us an opportunity to find the loving wisdom and close connection to our collective historical past as well as, our own past that we can easily neglect in our fast paced lives.

Come along and share your thoughts with us. We will be looking forward to y'all's joining us with your holiday memories.

Ol Imp
November 25, 2001 - 09:32 am
I definitely have a problem with time -"I can never remember - when I was twelve - when I was six" --so I "bring out whatever I can find"

Walking,during vacation ,in the rain,on the rocky beach at Amroth , North of Laugharne, pops into my head - A drink at the Amroth Pub - but what year - With help, I determine it was 1997.

Like Dylan Thomas my parents were of different belief systems - Father a cynical non- believer in tradition and mother more pious - so what pops out of my "bell tongued ball of holidays resting at the the rim of the carol - singing sea" -- out comes mother buying a christmas tree, replete with tinsel - father coming home from work - grabbing the tree and breaking it and then burning it - saying "all they want is money" they are using it (the holiday) - temple money grabbers - Mother crying - wanting the fixings of tradition - A true conflict - and to the child - a dashing of hope and thoughts of sugar plums and Santa Claus.

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 25, 2001 - 12:11 pm
Ol Imp what a confusing and heart breaking message - heart breaking to me in that it is so hard as a child to determine loyalty when it feels split between the two people we depend on the most. Two people that when they act out their differences we are caught as to how we should act so as not to displease either.

I love the phrase you abstracted from this work - the sentence just before the one that hit your memory hit me in a very different way, not memory but the awe of realizing how words can poke our memory which is sometimes a memory of a painful experience.
"All the Christmases roll down toward the two-tongued sea, like a cold and headlong moon bundling down the sky that was our street; and they stop at the rim of the ice-edged, fish-freezing waves, I plunge my hands in the snow and bring out whatever I can find."
He says this almost like an ascending cascade of triumph - how our memory is part of the history of man - "All the Christmases roll down/toward the two-tongued sea... a cold and headlong moon" - history without consideration for individual feelings as our inheritance - the history of family member and how they express their joys and pain, the history of man's search for a unity of one rather than two in a sea of chaos and plunging - "I plunge my hands in the snow and bring out what ever I can find." - into the heart of mankind and finding so many happenings that are of two-tongues.

I am seeing this work as more than warm nastolgia but a work of two-tongues. Had y'all noticed he does not include in this work any of the traditional Christ-mass happenings - it is more secular than religious with no mention of a live (nor a model of the) nativity.

YiLi Lin
November 25, 2001 - 01:51 pm
All the christmases roll down to the two-tongued sea- but some really stand out- some simply for the aura of the moment.

When I was a child, I had believed that my oldest sister was really my mother- so many childhood sensations are wrapped up in this image. In our house- heated with wood and coal- we had what was called "the back room" one christmas the tree etc. was mysteriously set and decorated in the back room (our tradition did not have kids decorating trees, etc. elves did that apparently during the night)- anyway that was the absolutely COLDEST room in the house and the floor heat register- the coal furnace was in the cellar- never even got near that room as the convection meandered about the place. and every Christmas of my childhood I was sick- flu, strep throat, measles, etc....

but this one back room christmas stands out, i can feel the warmth of my sister bundling me into the room and helping me open gifts with oohs and aahs- the biggest for my Hopalong Cassidy Holster, Belt and Cap pistol- a gesture of support for a young woman who had no wish for Tiny Tears dolls or whoever. that memory is caught up in feelings and smells, pine, cold air, mince meat cookies, frozen breath-

for a long time I had a picture of us in that back room, one of those old camera shots with the pinked edges- but unfortunately my box of family photos has like christmases past rolled on down to the sea and not yet found. and my mind cannot conjure anyone else in that room- though a mother, father, another sister and brother were present, and perhaps a grandma- it was a moment wrapped in the energy of two people - hmm but I guess that is what memories are.

Malryn (Mal)
November 25, 2001 - 02:31 pm
Lovely memories, Yili.

Has this discussion really begun?

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 25, 2001 - 06:32 pm
OH YILI LIN I have tears - you take my breath away. It feels as if my mouth cannot close after reading your post.

Malryn: I do not know what to say about if this has started or not - There have been such a mix-up on dates. I received one email that said the 27th was more comfortable. In the name of safety the 27th was put up next to the title today - but I had already posted a Welcome opening on the 24th and Ol Imp posted prior to the 11/27 placed next to the title.

I am never comfortable ignoring a post and saying - hay we can't talk about this till such and such day. To me the folks that post are extending their precious selves and I appreciate their gift. Also what they say usually sets off a reaction within me and I like to acknowledge their gift with a response that indicates they touched me.

And so with that Malryn you take it from there - the discussion will go up into on-going discussions the morning of the 27th for sure - if you want to hold off - fine - if you want to post - fine - I am here listening as I am sure there are other's listening.

Ol Imp
November 25, 2001 - 07:22 pm
Twas the night before Christmas in Chicago in 1898 and my Cynical father was born - Ironic - So close in date and yet so far in belief.

Christmas historically has been a catch - all - religious symbols moved a few months to mesh in - secular symbols moved in place - a sacred oak becoming a pine - A nordic Sinter Klaus -

So this hope dashed individual started to build a Christmas construct - hoping that it will be eternal - not just "eternal since Wednesday" and just temporal .

So , like an indian Pot-Latch - do a lot of presents - that didn't work. - that was only "eternal since Wednesday". - tried playing Santa and participated in a Church group - that was temporal .

Tried "two in chaos" (early marriage) boy that was quickly moved to "chaos and plunging" .

Unity - with no self ambivalence - Unity in the world - got to be more equal in what we have - can't be have nots -

Maybe if I snowball a cat in their green eyes I will find unity.

Ol Imp
November 25, 2001 - 07:39 pm
While in the Pub in Amroth ,Wales a fiesty gent when apprised of my US citizenship and occupation made numerous attempts to put me down and my occupation down - Could be that I was experiencing one who was similar to the boorish drunk that was Dylan Thomas.

In our current experience of a world pulling apart by belief system and nationality maybe we ought to bombilate a gong , like Mrs Prothero to get attention.

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 27, 2001 - 10:47 am
Looks like today is the real beginning - I will get back tonight - been rushing and rushing to get caught up with clients since I've been out of town for the Thanksgiving holiday - Thanks for your posts Ol Imp and I should be able to post tonight - by the way where in Wales is the beach you speak of in your post? Tell us a bit about your trip would you - why Wales in December?

Ol Imp
November 27, 2001 - 02:51 pm
Went to Wales in August of '97 - Amroth is small costal village North of Laugharne and South of Pembroke - Our friends in England had a Caravan (Mobile Home) near the beach in Amroth so we spent a week there .Rented a station wagon from "Rikkety Rentals" at Leighton Buzzard for the trip to Wales.

There is a Pub in Laugharne displaying a sign "Under Milk Wood" which is a play or dramatic reading written by Dylan Thomas - Didn't have the time to stop in that Pub. - Did drive through Laugharne.

Saw an excellent reading of "Under milk Wood" at UCLA in Los Angeles in 1956 - I think James Whitmore did Captain Cat.

YiLi Lin
November 27, 2001 - 03:32 pm
Well glad it is the 27th I had been waiting for the 24th and just jumped in- hmm wonder why we are still listed as an event about TO happen when we've been happening all along.

Stockings! Christmas stockings- coal, onion a 50-cent piece wrapped in tissue paper, one tangerine and one Ginger spice cookie with icing used as glue to hold on the paper icon of a very thin, german st. nick. Problem was all those christmases past- we always had mice as guests living in the house most winters, and it was usual to wake up in the morning and find the cookie gnawed in places where the mice feasted overnight. Even when the stockings were hung on the bedpost! (we did not have a fireplace!) Early on my brother and I vied for our father's sock (thinking it was the biggest) but then I graduated to knee-highs hehehehehehe and used my own.

But stockings were imbued with greater meaning when one Christmas my mother created the MOST AMAZING stockings for my children- and one for me. Mine was black velvet high heel, with sequins, a boa fringe etc., each son had a unique stocking, my older recalls his was designed as a pair of jeans, denim with pockets and all- which of course with two legs gave him two funnels to be filled. my younger we recall was a brown corderoy fabric with long ears, a nose etc. to be dog (we've always had bloodhounds) and yep each hound had her stocking too- smaller,and somehow had her picture(s) inserted into a fabric hole. the boys were filled with the traditional staple- yep the tangerine, 50 cents (in a ten dollar world) the cookie but also included additions like matchbox car, a personal box of cookies of those goldfish crackers, rubic cube etc. the dogs of course bones, chewies etc. Over the years the stocking became our symbol for holiday giving- we eventually eliminated big gifts and concentrated our celebration on a family meal, the christmas story, making cookies etc. and THE STOCKING.

Ol Imp
November 27, 2001 - 05:21 pm
Useful and useless presents according to Thomas - I suppose the most useless were the books that I did not read - The most useful were the used yellow metal streetcar and the green used milk truck appropiated from the Goodwill - I liked the sturdy , metal toys - I could easily imagine myself as a streetcar conductor or a milkman and then move the unit with my hand (tactile).

I never received a new Hopalong Cassidy gun outfit - I got a used gun that was shiny and shot caps that I praised and entered into the wars of the block - Along with my wooden rifle that shot rubber bands the shiny pistol was a good compliment.

Malryn (Mal)
November 27, 2001 - 07:59 pm
The most memorable Christmas in my life was when I was 7 years old. The uncle in whose house I lived came into my room, wrapped me in a quilt and carried me downstairs. I hadn't been down there since the previous July when both arms, both legs, my neck and most of the rest of me were paralyzed by polio.

When I first became sick, my aunt and uncle took me to their house to live because it was Depression time and my mother was very poor. She had three other kids to take care of and couldn't afford my illness. If we kids each received an orange, a couple of walnuts and a couple pennies for Christmas in those days, we were thrilled.

My uncle carried me into his living room that Christmas in 1935, and I saw the big tree all decorated with tinsel, ornaments and lights and what seemed like millions of presents under it. I couldn't believe my eyes. We couldn't stay very long because my arms, back and neck muscles were very weak, and I had trouble sitting up, and, of course, I couldn't walk.

What I saw in the few minutes my uncle held me by the tree was enough to make me very happy the rest of the day and months after that, as I lay in bed and thought about that Christmas miracle. Later I found out that neighbors and friends and people all around town had sent presents in just for me because I was so sick.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 28, 2001 - 12:36 am
Wow Mal a Disney like fantasy come true only you had the loving warmth of family to add to the dream day. Do you remember any of the presents that your received that Christmas? Useful and Useless a lá A Child's Christmas...

OK Ol Imp - you did it - between your cat with green eyes and Captain Cat I just had to find out more about Under Milk Wood - after hours of looking I could not find it in total on the web - so off to B&N tonight and purchased a copy - they did not have the recording - that sounds like the CD to own. I did find this site though with a summary of Under Milkwood

You actually visited Laugharne - was it as gray and dismal looking as the photo in the heading?

Gads remember when post was delivered the next day - I still have a Christmas postcard from my Grandmother postmarked December 22 3:30PM and you know I received it the next day.

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 28, 2001 - 12:52 am
Like most of us that grew up in the 30s and early 40s life was full of turmoil and bleak with moments of fun and warmth scattered here and there. Regardless the rest of the year Christmas was always a safe time filled with wonder. Lots of stories and traditions. Most of my memories are when we lived on the main level of a two story house that felt like a three story house since the one car garage, coal furnace and wash tubs were on the main level with an outside flight of stairs to the vestibule. In the vestibule the two doors lead to the two apartments. Our front door opened directly into what was supposed to be a formal dining room but was my parents bedrooms. Just next to the front door was a door to what was called the sunroom. This room had no heat and was my bedroom in summer but was closed off with a green shade on the 9 pane glass door just after Thanksgiving and it became the Christmas room. If any packages were delivered we could not to go near them since inside them was Santa Klause's little men who would throw sand in your eyes if you peeked in the room or went near the boxes which magically disappeared by supper time.

Past the wide doorway from my parents room to the living room there was a little hall off to the left that led to the tiled bathroom which echoed and at the far end of the living room were two doors on either side of the big table that was pushed up against the far wall. One door opening lead to the tiny kitchen with a back porch and "the" ice box that was always creating a catastrophe by overflowing. The other door went to the small bedroom I shared with my sister. It must have been a close fit since that table had sharp edges - I think I still have black and blue marks on my ribs and later my hip as I hit the corner of that table at least once a day. Back there in that bedroom at night during Advent we could hear the little men at the sewing machine and sometimes a hammer was banging away.

Christmas morning when we woke we yelled out Merry Christmas and my father told us to open our stocking, which were at the foot of our beds, they always held a tangerine and a Christmas only treat, a piece of maple sugar candy. He would call us when we could come out but with eyes closed.

The Christmas Room door was open with a tree to the ceiling. Most of the ornaments were from Germany and the lights had either a silvery star shape behind them or some kind of a whirling cover that were painted to look like carousels - some lights were in the shape of houses and teddy bears and santas. There were two bells and orniments from both my parents childhood trees. The stable under the tree was a great source of secret play as later my sister and I got down on the floor with the tree lights on and moved the shepherds around and then quick put them back. We daily inched the wise men closer and closer till they would be at the stable by Jan. 6. We always had tinsel on our tree where as my Aunt Margaret had angle hair on their tree.

We never received under-clothes, pajamas or Sunday dresses or coats or tooth brushes or any personal things much less toys at any other time of the year, except my mother did sew my sister and I new Easter cloths and summer sunsuits, shorts and halters. And so useful presents were just that, a new tooth brush, soap, usually a bar of sweetheart soap, ribbons from my braids, new undercloths and my grandmother always gave us new slippers. I always got new hankies which often were embroidered in the corner with the days of the week. My Aunt Alda always sent a lovely new Sunday dress for my sister and I. My dolls had new hand sewn outfits and one year there was a highchair for my Betsy Wetsy doll and another a cradle and one year a small wooden rocking chair for me.

I must have been in second grade when I received a large size Shirly Temple doll with a pleated chiffon dress. She took my breath away. I couldn't stop looking at her all day. She was so wonderful I didn't dare take her to church for Christmas Mass where as in the past I alway took my new doll with me. I never really played with her she was so beautiful that I just looked and looked at her in awe for years.

Unlike you Ol Imp I treasured the book I received. In my early years the one annual book was usually one of my mother's childhood books and one year my grandmother gave me her well worn copy of Count Van Luchner the Sea Devil I still have the book as I still have every book I ever received at Christmas. I was and still am a bookworm.

We never had a big Christmas dinner - a stew or soup and a choice of the many cookies baked through out Advent. One of the best parts of Christmas was Christmas Day night. We all went to my Aunt and Uncle's where there was a loud wonderful party with a cold cuts spread - my Aunt at the piano my Uncle with his violin and his brother later his son and still later my cousin on the accordion.

All the songs, Christmas or not, also the German and French songs since my Uncle's family was from the French part of Switzerland. Oh it was grand with lots of beer and wine - even us kids had a wee bit of wine or a sip of beer from someone's glass. My Grandmother usually got tipsy and inevitably went into her German. She loved to dance the shotich (I am not spelling it correctly) and we all danced the polka. My Uncle had a car so he usually drove everyone home in rotation. Squeezed in among my parents and other Aunts and Uncles that were being dropped off on the way I was always smiling inside and out Christmas Day Night.

Malryn (Mal)
November 28, 2001 - 07:51 am
I love what Thomas had Mrs. Prothero say to the firemen. "Would you like anything to read?"
"birds the color of red-flanneled petticoats whisked past the harp-shaped hills."

"'But that was not the same snow,' I say. 'Our snow was not only shaken from white wash buckets down the sky, it came shawling out of the ground and swam and drifted out of the arms and hands and bodies of the trees; snow grew overnight on the roofs of the houses like a pure and grandfather moss, minutely -ivied the walls and settled on the postman, opening the gate, like a dumb, numb thunder-storm of white, torn Christmas cards.' "

This is wonderful, marvelous writing.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 28, 2001 - 09:32 am
OH yes Malryn - my favorite sentence in the whole story - the sister of Mrs. Prothero coming downstairs after all the hurrah and saying to the firemen. "Would you like anything to read?" I love it, just love it.

Malryn the bit you chose about all the snow seems to me to be another way of expressing this bit, "Years and years and years ago..." although he says when he was a boy I get the impression if he is referring to "wolves in Wales,...the English and the bears,...before the wheel,...when we rode the daft and happy hills bareback, it snowed and it snowed." To me the snow is not only holding this piece together since it is repeated through out the story but, is also the link to pre-history mankind. That all the Christmases are as one linking the winter solstice with much of those traditions still held fast as folks celebrate another theological focal point.

Did you get the bit how the children could hear the bells inside themselves but he could only hear the thunder. I wonder if he meant thunder versus bells giving an impression of some inner darkness and rage or is he referring to a thunder as the rolling sound of history, all the noise made over the centuries of mankind; acknowledging himself as a piece of that continuum.

Malryn (Mal)
November 28, 2001 - 09:59 am
Barb:

You're right. It was the aunt who said that.

We all read differently, and I don't read deep, hidden meaning into this piece. To me, Dylan Thomas is painting a living picture in the background of a cold, snowy, winter environment.

As I read it, the child narrator (Thomas) tells the ordinary kid about bells children hear inside them. The other boy says he hears thunder once in a while but not bells, unable to understand the poetry.

One must remember that Thomas was primarily a poet, a manipulator of words. It's my feeling that he was more interested in the sound and rhythm of them than he was in symbolism in this relatively simple piece.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 28, 2001 - 10:24 am
Hmmm "unable to understand the poetry" that is a new thought for me - I like that one as well. They say that the sound of his choice of words is really best heard when Under Milk Wood is read rather then performed. When I shopped last evening I found a wonderful book of Dylan Thomas's Wales by Hilary Laurie just chock full of photos. One photo that was so interesting is of a long list of words - a worksheet showing his painstaking search for the right word. It also said he would often use a thesaurus.

Ol Imp
November 28, 2001 - 01:25 pm
Early on mother would sing ,on occasion in Dutch German - I can still hear the happy early notes - mother had a wonderful voice but never developed it - Father , early on, would play his manolin and at times compose his own music - The early christmas' were sparse but musical. At times we would join with my Aunt and her family for Christmas and music.

My mother would do her version of fruit cake which I thought was yummy.

I can remember a Lionel train set (used) that father put together under and around the tree - and we jointly played with it.

Even in the summer time Laugharne appears gray as in the picture .

The incongruency of "would you like anything to read" made it funny to me.

"not the same snow" to me was like a challenge - like two kids in competition - my snow is better than your snow -

The hope expressed in the bells juxtaposed to the thunder of reality .

"safetime filled with wonder" it would be nice - I don't see it as a safe time.

The family house ( built in 1903) in San Diego just cleared escrow - one of the momentoes brought to me by my brother was a lamp that I built for christmas.

Nellie Vrolyk
November 28, 2001 - 01:45 pm
There are such wonderful Christmas memories being shared here. I'm going to add bits and pieces of my own, if no one minds. I lived the first ten years of my childhood in Holland and I have the best memories of Christmas there.

Christmas in Holland back in the forties and early fifties came in two parts -and still does, I believe- for us children. Early in December there would be Sinterklaas (Saint Nicholas) evening on which we would leave out our shoes by the haard (heater) before going to sleep with a carrot and some cookies inside. The next morning our shoes would be filled with all sorts of delicious sweets: fruits made from marsipan, animals made from sugar, our initials in chocolate, fun items made out of marsipan and chocolate -these included things like tiny chamberpots filled with chocolate droppings (LOL you know what I mean) and beside the shoes would be packages with clothing and toys and books. I remember that in the year just before we came to Canada one of my presents contained rollerskates -the kind you attached to your shoes- and I think that from that moment on they were permanently attached to my feet.

Christmas itself was a religious day for us. I loved being able to stay up late to go to midnight mass and walking in the cool night air with my parents and siblings to the church, along with all the neighbours who were also going. I loved looking at the manger scene, all the candles burning. I loved the beauty of the mass with its mysterious Latin and the priest in his beautiful vestments; but most of all I loved it when it came time to sing the Christmas carols.

Another thing I loved about Christmas as a child was the Christmas tree. It was always a live tree decorated with lovely ornaments, tinsel and angel hair, and lit by hundreds of tiny white candles. It was always an honour when we children were allowed to very carefully light one or two of the candles.

Those are a few of my early childhood Christmas memories.

I have printed out the story and shall comment more after I have read it.

Ol Imp
November 28, 2001 - 10:59 pm
Other than establishing an eternal concept of Christmas, like a Chameleon, I would try to take on the color and concept, of the environment, that I was in. Having to approach this annual event that was ever temporal ("eternal ever since Wednesday") hence, always altering, depending on the mood, hopes, dreams, illusions of those participating made me ever fearful of projecting something that had some form or shape.

At a young age, singing in concert with family and my dissonant voice - sleeping on the ice, with friends - sitting on the beach, with a friend and sharing rememberances, with tears - poised, on the porch of an A frame lodge, looking toward the future - listening to a friend do a violin solo - decorating a tree with lights and ornaments - buying presents for relatives in far off places - sitting on a mountainside, watching a group of monks sing - planting a pine to decorate - Sharing my impressions of modern art to group of friends - doing a simple craft project at a church to take home as a gift to my parents.

I suppose, it is a time of giving and hoping, that others will accept that which is given - If it is not accepted, the spirit of giving is sort of crushed - the spirit of giving has to become a one-way process - pleasing, the giver only - It would be nice ,if, it were a two-way process - I can remember composing a christmas poem for girlfriend, in all earnestness - she read it, but did not accept the expressions set forth - she moved on with her life , I with mine.

The internal bells of illusion and hope trying to communicate with the thunder of reality and no bells.

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 28, 2001 - 11:06 pm
Wow Old Imp I am doing a quick edit job here in that you just posted a beauty - give me a bit to digest all that - sounds like you have had an incredible life filled with moments sublime. In your earlier post I just loved the thought you shared The hope expressed in the bells juxtaposed to the thunder of reality. That is one I can chew on for a bit. Now what is this lamp - this lamp you built for Christmas?

So glad you joined us Nellie - I had often read about Sinterklaas's visit on December 6 in Holland but did not realize there were all the gifts you mentioned. Nellie did you keep the tradition of an early gift giving time with your family after you moved to Canada?

Oh and I couldn't agree with you more - I loved and miss the Latin Mass - with all the changes the Church made to this day I think some of the changes only lessened the experience. For me the religion was more about adoration than all the politics and theologically based morality that seems to be the center of debate today. Singing the Mass in Latin and in the music of Gregorian Chant always lifted me to another realm. As children we said the Mass in Latin aloud starting in the sixth grade. We all sang in Latin, especially during Benediction service from the time we started school. Now rather than go to church I listen to Mass from Rome on Christmas Eve just to hear the Latin and the Gregorian Chant.

Interesting we celebrated December 6 in my childhood home by leaving our letter to Santa in our shoe by the front door along with something for his raindeer to eat. In the morning in its place was always a pencil with an eraser for each of us and "the" box containing the blue tissue paper with silver stars stuck on that my Mom tacked to the widow in the little hall to the bathroom. Also in the box was some cotton batting she put on the window sill for snow and a small sleigh with Santa pulled by a celluloid reindeer. This was placed on the cotton covered sill and than the pièce de résistance - crepe paper in the pattern of bricks with a section cut out where there glued was a piece of black construction paper. When this was hung under the sill it looked for all the world like a fireplace.

I kept the 6th going with my children with changes that money could afford. Not only were the boxes of saved annual decorations left, included, althought a Sunday late, the pewter advent wreathe with appropriate candles. And what became the biggie, a new Christmas book was added each year to our collection. When they were very little the book was a supermarket special Christmas magazines with stories for children but gradually the tomes collected were Christmas Literature as well as, books of treasured warm and charming illustrations that make up so much of our Christmas fantasy. We read each evening and a few of the favorites the children read aloud again and again, often while I was baking or sewing. They were all stored for another year when the tree came down.

Ol Imp
November 28, 2001 - 11:37 pm
Could this 55 year old wood lamp that has been stored in a box for years in a house built in 1903 be a testament to my efforts to reach out , give and hope - because the family was in turmoil at the time , my lamp got put to the side and stored - my brother, brought it to me last Sunday - I suppose it was a gift , with no place to go - It was meant for a put together Ozzie and Harriet family and be part of pleasant surroundings - The lamp did not fit into separation and divorce - no place to go - "wise cats never appeared" - Can hope and the lamp land? - must we always hide and be in fear of getting hit by a snowball from the "moccasined trappers from Hudson Bay of Mumbles Road".

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 29, 2001 - 12:05 am
aha and ah so - the lamp - the unlite lamp of a young boy's need for family and love that eluded his best efforts - Yes our child like dream of wanting family members to be what we need and fit our picture of how life should be. I wonder if there really are many folks that experience that pleasure - and if they did, when it comes down to it, so what - Was it Disney or 1930s Hollywood Margaret O'Brian and Jimmy Stewart or maybe Dickens before that, who gave us a view of what Christmas aught to be like so that we could feel like we are pressing our face yearnig to be included on the other side of a window of dreams.

hmmm your thoughts on gift giving and gift receiving have my head going - are we really giving with no strings or are we giving with a still small voice hoping, wanting, being needy - desiring our own joy in the knowledge that we pleased.

I know the holiday for me brought me more joy because I filled it with the doing and preparing, the cleaning house from top to bottom, the making, the creating. Christmas day always felt anit-climactic. Since everyone is gone I have alternatily gone to London for several Christmases and when my Kids settled in I visited them for several Christmases but in my heart of hearts I am ready for a Christmas that I remember shared by Hercule Poirot where he planned on spending the day with a good book, two pieces of Belgium chocolate, hot tea, and a glass of good port.

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 29, 2001 - 01:33 am
...but Auntie Hannah, who liked port, stood in the middle of the snowbound back yard, singing like a big-bosomed thrush.
I love the image and yet I could no more imagine singing loudly in my back yard nor would I have thought appropriate a neighbor, flush with port, singing loudly on Christmas day in their backyard. This scene does though bring to mind a quote I had found about Dylan Thomas.
Dylan Thomas knew the answer - that life is better lived with a dark passion than a squeaky-clean complaisance; that with all our flaws, we are divine creations, deserving of forgiveness and acceptance, laughter and love.
According to the Hilary Laurie in Dylan Thomas’s Wales Caitlin also lived her life with a dark passion. Doesn’t sound like Dylan ever forgave her as much as he simply “needed” her and therefore said all the correct things but they both than went on to hurt each other.

Malryn (Mal)
November 29, 2001 - 06:43 am
Ol Imp, you are a poet.

Barbara, it's sad you can't imagine singing as loud as you could in your backyard on Christmas Day. I've been a singer all my life, even now when my bell-like soprano has gone down to the preserves closet in the cellar tonewise. I sang in more depressing Christmas oratorios than I care to remember and in so many darkened, hushed, pseudo-reverent churches Christmas Eve that I get a headache thinking about it.

There's a bit of a devil in me, I guess, because the minute I'd get out of that holy atmosphere where the candles ate up all the air, I'd burst into song on the sidewalk in my hometown and elsewhere I've lived and sing the liveliest carols I knew.

I remember singing in a somber choir one Christmas Eve church service, thankfully breathing good, cold, fresh air when I left that dismal place, and getting in the car with my family. We opened all the windows, freezing as it was, and sang carols to a jazzy beat at the top of our lungs all the way home.

There was also one memorable Christmas Day when a friend of ours dug out his trombone, and we stood in the yard, he playing and some other joyful people and I singing as loud as we could. It's supposed to be a time of joy, for heaven's sake, so let 'er rip!

Get yourself out in your backyard this year, Barbara, and sing to the heavens, for goodness sake, and show the world how glad you are to be alive on Christmas Day!

Mal

YiLi Lin
November 29, 2001 - 09:07 am
candle- i have this vague recollection of the Christmas candle, lit on Christmas Evem white, in a simple table sconce. It stayed lit for the reading of The Night Before Christmas- I had one book as a child, from my grandma, where you could open the windows to see the new fallen snow and the reindeer noses bobbed on a cotton base, i guess it was an early version of the more ornate and complex popup books of today. kept the reading of the christmas story alive for my children- though we read from a book with ancient germanic klauses and european script. feast of st. nick remained in our tradition until my children were adults, that is when they would write a letter to santa and leave it out with a snack for the klaus or a helper and hopefully find some token receipt the following morning. sensitive to the potential disaster of christmas day obligations with inlaws and other relatives, we confined the christian christmas day to home for ourselves- the day was marked with a special breakfast from the german stores (no longer around) and STOLEN, amazing STOLEN- lightly toasted with scads of butter....mmmmmmm we were not a family big on singing- but many times in the late afternoon we all trug over to grandmas who was definitely into her christmas with sleighs decorated from fabric scraps and nature walk flora as full room centerpieces, all kinds of foods to eat and the most creative 'trees'- one year it was a decorated umbrella rib set in a wonderful crockery base.

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 29, 2001 - 01:38 pm
YILI LIN I love it - the symbolism there "the most creative 'trees'- one year it was a decorated umbrella rib set in a wonderful crockery base." Celebrating and glorifying the umbrella that offers no protection almost like a pail with a hole in it. Sounds like your mother was into creative freedom.

And stollen ahhh - last two years while I visited my daughter we found a store that imports the stollen from Dresden - ohhh lush with flavor and than when we read how it was prepared we were knocked over - the last before it is sugared is soaking it in hot butter - I'm thinking we were eating a traditional heart attack - found this great site with pictures showing every step of the way how to make Stollen a traditional German Christmas cake.

In keeping with our story I found this recipe for a pudding.
Figgy Pudding
  • 1/2 Pound of figs
  • 1 1/4 Cups of bread crumbs
  • 1 Cup of almonds or walnuts
  • 1 Cup of light brown sugar (scant)
  • 1/2 Cup of candied grapefruit peel
  • 1/4 Cup of candied lemon peel
  • 3 Tablespoons of melted butter
  • 4 Eggs, beaten
  • 1/2 Teaspoon of cinnamon
  • 1/4 Teaspoon of nutmeg
Directions:

Chop the figs and mix with fluffy crumbs.
Brown the almonds or walnuts (it using almonds, they should be blanched and skinned and chopped. Walnuts should be chopped).
Mix with all the other ingredients.
Put the mixture into a greased mold and steam 2 1/2 hours (The pudding may also be baked in a 325 oven for 1 hour).
Moist, soft grapefruit peel adds a very good flavor.
Serve with a brandy and cream sauce.

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 29, 2001 - 02:05 pm
Malryn you carroling had me looking up Caroling in Wales. Vaguley remember the word waits being used - well I think I found it - I think I found it - in a copy of Christmas in Wales by Bill Egan a Christmas Historian -
According to legend, King Arthur made merrie in 521 surrounded by "minstrels, gleemen, harpers, pipe-players, jugglers, and dancers."
Arthur's Stone is on Cefn Bryn, Gower. Daylan was familiar with this prehistoric monument from his walks.


Today, the British Isles usher in the holiday season with jubilant sound: church bells pealing, handbells ringing, choirs singing, and buskers and waits performing on street corners.

Wandering minstrels traveled from hamlet to castle, performing carols in the distant past. In later years, villages had their own bands of waits.

Waits were originally watchmen who patrolled the streets and byways of the old walled cities keeping guard against fire and singing out the hours of the night. During the holiday season, they would include some carols for the people along the way, although some folks complained that they would rather get a good nights sleep than have somebody singing under their window. Eventually the term was used to describe groups of musicians who sang and played for various civic events during the Christmas season
I am thinking that Auntie Hannah singing with pot in hand, flush with port was similar to a watchmen - rather than a walled city a walled yard in that I bet the back yard was fenced and she was guarding the fire cooking the food properly - regardless if this is the image that Thomas had it sure sounds fun and I like the picture it paints.

Later in story, the boys go caroling and I found this bit about caroling in Wales
Caroling is particularly popular in Wales where it is called eisteddfodde and is often accompanied by a harp. Every village has its own choir of trained singers and everyone else joins in. Each year an official set of words for a new Christmas carol is distributed to all the towns, and all vie with each other in producing the best music, which is judged in a national competition. The winning tune will be sung the following Christmas season by all the choirs and will become part of the great body of carols produced since the custom began in the tenth century.

In many areas a person is chosen to be the Mari Lwyd which means "Grey Mare." The Mari Lwyd leads a group of mummers in travels around the city or town, usually to celebrate the arrival of the New Year. He is draped in gray-white and carries a ribbon bedecked horse's skull on a long pole. Anyone given the "bite" by the horse's jaws must pay a fine. The mummers visit previously selected houses where they bang loudly on the door with a stick and sing out impromptu verses. Eventually they are invited in for cakes and cider.

Roggy
November 29, 2001 - 07:46 pm
A Child's Christmas in Wales is dear to my heart. For many years we played a recording of Dylan Thomas reading this poem on Christmas morning. It was a family tradition and I am warmed by the memories of the children enthralled by that marvelous voice as he read the poem. We shall play it again with children and grandchildren this year and it will bring joy and warmth to us all.

Ol Imp
November 29, 2001 - 08:09 pm
I can accept all kinds of people actions but I cannot forgive - If I forgive you then I am saying that I am better than you , which I am not - forgiveness is like confession - it lifts the responsibility from you ; hence, you can do the behaviour or action again - I think it is much better to accept personal responsibility for all that one does.

To be included in the "window of dreams" is form of hope and possibly illusion - probably not grounded in reality.

I guess I yearned to be included and feel important and part of.

I'm not singing but I am drinking red wine and earlier I had some Belgium Chocolate - Oops! I spilled some of my red wine on my Dylan Thomas copy of "A Child's Chistmas in Wales".

I have never experienced passion as dark - Like wanting to hurt another - If I feel it and do it that is me - carrying the thought of another's feelings into a free movement, to me, shows that you want to bring another in - Just going with the flow is nice. - Must we be "poised and brittle, afraid to break, like faded cups and saucers".

Ol Imp
November 29, 2001 - 08:30 pm
So he noticed a "big-bosomed thrush", Auntie Hannah, drinking wine and rum, and singing in the backyard ,and the parlor.

I feel, I would be attracted to a woman who was spontaneous and buxom, which I feel, Dylan Thomas was also.

Ol Imp
November 29, 2001 - 08:36 pm
"no longer whinnying with us" is Dylan Thomas's expression of death - By making light of death , I think it shows a fear of death.

Malryn (Mal)
November 30, 2001 - 07:16 am
Oh, such heavy thoughts. The picture I see of the dear, departed aunt is a woman who whinnied like the horse she resembled when she talked and no fear of death here at all.

He couldn't remember whether it snowed twelve days and twelve nights when he was six or six days and nights when he was twelve.


" 'But that was not the same snow,' I say. 'Our snow was not only shaken from white wash buckets down the sky, it came shawling out of the ground and swam and drifted out of the arms and hands and bodies of the trees; snow grew overnight on the roofs of the houses like a pure and grandfather moss, minutely -ivied the walls and settled on the postman, opening the gate, like a dumb, numb thunder-storm of white, torn Christmas cards.' "

Isn't that wonderful?

Dylan Thomas was not only a troubled, drunken sot, he had a marvelous sense of humor, too. I think he must have had tremendous fun writing this piece and smiled over the images he created with words. I know I would have if I'd written it.

Mal

Ol Imp
November 30, 2001 - 12:43 pm
Having a vague - things should be a certain way - held up against a transparent display of things are this way - "from chapel, with taproom noses" - "against the irreligious snow" - wanting a mesh of an ideal with the reality of existence - "why the wasp" .

I feel the humor is sad - there will never be a resolution of an ephemeral ideal with reality.

My father's voice had a resonant timbre - The Welch voice has a resonant timbre - I find myself responding to people on the timbre of their voice. I know that my spine shakes when a woman has the right resonant timbre. - I have been apprised that Dylan Thomas had a resonant tibre to his voice. - I think I heard the recording of him reading , once in the past.

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 30, 2001 - 12:45 pm
Welcome Roggy - you do remind us again it is the words - the words that roll and beckon us into the rhythm, the music of words that Dylan Thomas could create, a sound so distinctive to this man.

Mal - you chose a wonder of words there with your quote.

Ol Imp - have you had a chance yet to read Simon Wiesenthal's The Sunflower on the Possibilities and Limits of Forgiveness - not only thought provoking but I saw other sides and the Limits of Forgiveness. The book has been republished with additional responses from distinguished men and women. I think we all struggle not only with forgiveness but what forgiveness means. There are so many difinitions currently in use so that I find each thesis has merit but only after understanding the speakers definition.

What a glory the construction of this story holds - I started to pull it apart - at first, just to follow the trail of the word snow and than I wanted to note all the characters. What I found was a beautifully crafted story. Each section or discription of a scene is forshodowed with the mention of a word or phrase repeated in the scene. Also I found that snow really is the link tying this story together much like a string tied around a Christmas package.

Here is a list of phrases where snow is mentioned and than of course a whole additional bit about the 'snow-ball' not included.
  • whether it snowed for six days and six nights
  • whether it snowed for twelve days and twelve nights
  • I plunge my hands in the snow and bring out whatever I can find
  • It was snowing.
  • It was always snowing at Christmas
  • it snowed and it snowed.
  • But here a small boy says: "It snowed last year, too. I made a snowman and my brother knocked it down and I knocked my brother down and then we had tea."
  • But that was not the same snow,"
  • "Our snow was not only shaken from white wash buckets down the sky,
  • snow grew overnight
  • Christmas and the snow
  • the irreligious snow
  • with spats of snow
  • when out of a snow-clogged side lane
  • the snow descending,
  • Through the scudding snow
  • "Let's write things in the snow."
  • "Can the fishes see it's snowing?"
  • snow-blind travelers lost on the north hills
  • wheel-rutted snow
  • in the snow-felted darkness round the house that was occupied by nobody we knew.
  • the unending smoke-colored snow

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 30, 2001 - 01:13 pm
Ol Imp "I feel the humor is sad - there will never be a resolution of an ephemeral ideal with reality."

Yes, I agree with your thought which makes me wonder, one of our two's or Yin Yang, is it just that - we have and use our ability to dream, imagine, and than there is reality.

parman
November 30, 2001 - 01:25 pm
Years ago, I owned an LP called "The Pleasure Dome" - in which were featured the favorite works of a variety of contemporary poets, read by the poets. There were T S Eliot, W H Auden, E E Cummings (my college days favorite), William Carlos Williams, Marianne Moore, and a number of others. But the one that hypnotized me was Dylan Thomas, reading Poem in October. It celebrated (sort of) his 30th birthday, and there's a line in it that has fascinated me for more than 50 years.

In that marvelous, mellow voice (hoarsened just a bit by an elegant sufficiency of Jamesson's 12) he spoke the line: "It was my thirtieth year to heav'n, and the weather turned round". Something about the line, and the manner in which it was intoned, made me an instant convert.

Poetry in general seems to have become a lost art -- today, when poetry is mentioned, the name Rod McKuen invariably comes up.

I was stationed in Korea when Rod was there with KCAC. and we did some hosptial shows together - he was a marvelous folk singer - and I enjoyed his company immensely -- but a Poet? Lord help us! Today he ranks as America's all-time best-selling poet .... and I think the word "rank" is apt.

But Thomas ---- I haven't read the Christmas piece in many years - but will do so at once. I can also recall an enchanted evening off Broadway, seeing Under Milk Wood. He was not only a marvelous poet and quite a bit of a presence on stage, he was a most fascinating character just holding forth in a pub. I can remember one evening at The White Horse Tavern in the west village when he and Jason Robards held forth (this was in Robards' drinking days, too) - and the evening went on rollicking for hours. I'm really looking forward to this discussion.

Yeah, I'm gonna' like it here.

parman
November 30, 2001 - 01:57 pm
The man's language was music. And words - such words. Bombilating. Shawling. And the rhythms. Oh, the rhythms.

It brings me back in an instant to a very special class in English Literature, sometime around 1950 -- the esteemed Dr. Otto Schoenrene pontificating -- chastening me for being a fluent writer "but why so formal young man?" I can hear him now saying "You write with an apt sense of syntax - but you must learn to make language sing."

And so I did. But later, frustrating my muse by turning my hand to advertising copy - and insisting it was legitimate creative endeavor. Made me feel better, it did. Don't know if it made the copy any better. But in all the years that followed, with every young writer who worked in one of my groups, I told them: "Don't leave it until you have read it aloud. And if it doesn't sing to you, it won't sing to anyone else. So make it sing - make it perform."

And if I look back at the influences, I must place that benighted Welshman, Dylan, at the top - or damn near. Because there never was a Welshman who didn't sing. And to this spawn of Russian-Jewish immigrants, who sang only in minor keys, he was a bit of magic.

Whoever thought of bringing this piece to the fore for this discussion -- thank you. It's a lot more than just a brief respite from Terror. It's making me sing again.

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 30, 2001 - 02:37 pm
Welcome parman wonderful posts - you have met folks that most of us only see on the screen - your sharing makes me wonder though if there are others out there that can "hold forth" but, just never persued the spotlight. I think when it comes down to it most of us who post here in Books & Lit "hold forth" and it is why we come back so often, to hear and be heard.

You also mention the words and the music Dylan Thomas made with those words - there aren't enough adjectives are there to say what is in our heart when we sing with Dylan. Come to think of it somewhere around here I do have a tape of this story read aloud - not by Dylan though - but I think I will listen to the music of his words this afternoon.

According to the book that I found the other night while picking up my copy of Under Mild Wood called Dylan Thomas's Wales by Hilary Laurie, this story evolved during war time when Dylan was shuttling back and forth to London trying to make a buck since poetry didn't pay. In 1943 he recorded his first BBC broadcast called Reminiscences of Childhood He wanted to call it Nostalgia for an Ugly Town
He talked about his childhood in suburban Swansea - in Cwmdonkin Park, at nursery school, in the lane between home and school, where the children would tell tales and where fanciful boast that he could fly took wing and bore him aloft over school, trees, chimneys, dockyards and town. But, he added,
This is only a dream. The ugly, lovely, at least to me, town is alive, exciting and real thought war has made a hideous hole in it. I do not need to remember a dream. the reality is there. The fine live people, the spirit of Wales itself.
He had an unwritten rule that all talks on the BBC Welsh Service should end with a reference to the spirit of Wales...He could escape to London for his film work, but then had to travel for up to eight hours to spend the weekend with his family. He quickly lost all sense of harmony with his Welsh surroundings: he was no longer sure he wanted to continue living in Wales. He began to talk about moving to America, or leaving the country completely. In flight from the present he turned once again to the past, and in December 1945 he wrote and recorded Memories of Christmas a heavily nostalgic account of childhood Christmases in Swansea. Later from this he would fashion one of his best-loved works, A Child's Christmas in Wales

parman
November 30, 2001 - 03:01 pm
This is such a fine time of year to re-examine this marvelous piece of art. The only thing we really need - and hardly get anymore is snow -- lots and lots of snow.

Enough snow, and even a Jewish agnostic gets cranked up and joins in the Christmas Carols with any group that happens to be walking the streets around Christmas time.

Enough snow - and enough egg nog - and he'll even try to sing solo (not a good idea).

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 30, 2001 - 03:10 pm
Hehe you and Auntie Hannie - oh yes and Marlyn in her post said she has done her fair share of singing aloud in public.
Seems Aunt Hannah needed more than a snowfall to urge her tonsils to jiggle forth a tune.

YiLi Lin
November 30, 2001 - 03:25 pm
all that snow- and yet "the same snow" - thanks mal- hmm methinks there is something running deep here but I guess I'd wonder if he were talking about a pure and pristine snow or the kind of snow we get here in the northeast corner of america- more often grey with snits of ice pellets and of course, after a plow or two and the world wakes up, a slushy grime.

but one thing common to snow, its first fall hushes the world- ever notice that- how sounds change when it snows? so for all his years i'd like to think that snow provided a moments hush, a quiet within and without.

most of my childhood was without snow at the holiday time- but i do remember one year it snowed on december 23- see it was so rare to have a holiday snow all these years later i remember it. i remember walking with my aunt tootsie yep her names was tootsie- and we tried to catch the flakes on our tongue- an amazing idea since she was my mother's sister and my childhood recollection of my mother was a woman of a much more serious nature. for many years after i always thought my aunt tootsie brought the snow and if only she would visit around the holiday season we'd get snow (I especially wanted it to snow the year I got the sleigh)

Malryn (Mal)
November 30, 2001 - 04:08 pm
Such a problem Maryal and I have. We've been confused in discussions before because our screen names are similar, and can't figure out a way to convince people who we are. I'm Malryn the singer, as Parman should know, since we discussed our shared propensities for singing and music in a Political Issues discussion, of all places!

Sometimes I think there's too much of a tendency to read what we know about a writer into his or her work. I've written some of my funniest stuff when I've been miserable with pain or otherwise under the weather. There's absolutely no way one can know how the writer felt when he or she wrote a piece or exactly what he or she was thinking, and pulling in his or her past when the writer is poking and having fun is (in my mind, anyway) just one way to lose what the author intended and is saying.

I am building web pages right now for the January-February issue of Sonata and today wrote a very short piece as a filler for that issue. I'm putting a link below because I discovered I was being influenced by A Child's Christmas in Wales. If nothing else, you might be interested in listening to the Carol of the Bells, which is the music on the page.

Hope Springs

Your turn, Barb. How about a poem?

Mal (That's Malryn, not Maryal!)

parman
November 30, 2001 - 05:56 pm
But Bob Bladgett -- such a Dickensian name for a Macy's shopper amid the hustle and bustle of New York. I can see old Bob trudging the streets of Victorian London - cuffing away the young pickpockets out to feast on the holiday season.

He needs a New York name... like Mack. Yeah, old Mack -- retired bus driver -- alone at the holiday. Hey, look, Ma - I'm a editor.

Sorry to intrude on your piece - couldn't resist.

YOu know, somehow the big city grey slush only fills our consciousness after we grow up. As kids, it's all white and sparkly -whether it is or not.

But I remember 1939. Not a snowstorm - an ice storm - and every tree in Bronx Park - alongside the little Bronx River - was encased in crystal - like a fairyland it was - but the poor tress, bent under the weight of all that ice - really suffered - and when Spring came, they didn't reflect their usual glory. But it was magic while it lasted.

Malryn (Mal)
November 30, 2001 - 06:08 pm
Thanks, Parman.

Bob Badgett was a play on Bob Cratchit, since I wanted him to look out the window for the boy with the goose, and didn't want to name him Sam Scrooge.

Mal

Nellie Vrolyk
November 30, 2001 - 08:01 pm
There are hundreds of pictures in this most enjoyable to read little story. I won't list them all but just the ones I particularly like.

The first is the picture of the two boys waiting for the cats to 'slink and sidle over the garden wall' with snowballs in hand.

The second is of Mrs. Prothero beating the dinner gong and 'announcing ruin like a town crier in Pompeii.'

And this marvelous description of the postmen: "With sprinkling eyes and wind-cherried noses, on spread, frozen feet they crunched up to doors and mittened on them manfully..."

I enjoy reading everyone's memories and thoughts on this story

Barbara St. Aubrey
November 30, 2001 - 09:54 pm
Sorry Malryn - be content to know I didn't switch you, just your name - in my minds eye I knew you were the author of Sonata and ever since I found your photo it floats in my minds eye when I'm reading and responding to your post. I am terrible about getting anything with a name remembered and especially do it with the names of streets all the time - it becomes Rock something or, one of the something or other hill streets - and this is my job to direct someone's memory of some house we saw on such and such street - truly in my head I say, oh, Mal, the one who publishes the magazine -

Yili Lin that snow brings up all kinds of reverie for me. While it falls it seems to me to be like pages of a calendar driving down as a blizzard of time since the dawn of man. And then when it stops or the snow is just a flutter falling - it is as if this place, this time, is frozen in place. As you say Yili Lin, 'hushed' frozen in time. Dylan mentions wheel ruts and yet I'm imaging few vehicles connecting this town with the outside world. Yes, that's it - the story makes me think of one of those glass globes that we shake and a blizzard obscures the scene so that our imagination allows us to enter the scene. If Dylan as a small boy wondered if the fish knew it was snowing, I wonder who thought to make and throw the first snowball.

Those cats Nellie - do you shelter a cat in your house? I would say own but, from my memory of my son's cat they are not owned. From Dylan's description of cats in the story I do not think he saw them as gently furry mates - "Sleek and long as jaguars and horrible-whiskered, spitting and snarling, they would slink and sidle over the white back-garden walls..."

I loved this image - "This was better than all the cats in Wales standing on the wall in a row." With he and Jim, and then later he, Jim, Dan and Jack carrying arm loads of snow-balls this sounds like they see the cats as a line up of targets in a county fair.

What is it with boys that they must hit animal life for target practice. I am remembering my sons after school going down into the valley at the foot of our Mesa with their chums using their sling shots to hit birds. Now 30 years later the valley is a neighborhood of houses - but thank God not so thickly built up that there is no place for the Deer.

Well we almost had snow here last night - but it became ice and was gone by 9:00 - accidents all over town - no one here knows how to drive in the stuff so that we know to just stay home. Problem is there are those who have moved from up north to Austin within the past few years who don't think twice about driving in the ice and snow. Well they are the ones that are always hit by the few Austin folk that are still out rolling down hills "Iron-flanked and bellowing" like hippos clanking and battering "through the scudding snow." Looks like many body repair shops will have some Christmas cash this year.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 1, 2001 - 02:51 am
Wow amazing to me where curiosity will lead - Nellie I was curious about the story starting with cats and not the fluffy gentle cat at that. Phrases in the story about cats are:
  • waiting for cats,
  • But there were cats.
  • Sleek and long as jaguars and horrible-whiskered, spitting and snarling, they would slink and sidle over the white back-garden walls,
  • the green of their eyes.
  • The wise cats never appeared.
  • our enemy and prey, the neighbor's polar cat
  • This was better than all the cats in Wales standing on the wall in a row.
  • cats in their fur-abouts watched the fires
And so I looked up in my trusty tome An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols and found the Cat in Celtic tradition symbolize: - The chthonic power issuing from the dark places in our being that connect us to the voice of the earth.

OK what in the world are chthonic powers - well Pandora's box opens -
Chthonic gods - Ge (the Earth itself, the sole power which generates Sky; she is the cunning one who overcomes the oppression of Sky through trickery - she invents steel and makes the sickle.)

The Two Goddesses of Eleusis; Cybele; Dionysos; Fates; Furies; Pan; Persephone (Queen of the lower world - goddess associated with death) as well as local gods of rivers, springs, trees, and mountains.

Chthonic gods had rites (called orgies but not meaning the same thing as our word) that tended to be private, nocturnal, solemn,( sounds like Dylan's cats doesn't it) and concerned with averting negative influences.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 1, 2001 - 02:54 am
Well then I decide to search Celtic gods to find out what the Chthonic Celtic gods were and Les voilà! Up comes these sites brimming with information about Celtic gods all part of a Welsh myth - and who is one of the gods -
Dylan, a Welsh sea god with golden hair nicknamed 'Son of the Wave'.

Son of Arianrhod ("silver wheel", thus, the moon, the virgin goddess of the sky and fertility is one of the descendants of Don, the mother-goddess. She gave birth to Dylan and a blob, that later became Lleu, immediately after she stepped over the magic wand of her uncle, Math.)

Dylan's deathgroan is the roar of the tide at mouth of the river Conway. He was nicknamed 'Son of the Wave' because he swam off into the sea after being baptized and could move in the water better than a fish.

All the sea lamented, when Dylan was slain by his uncle Govannon, the smith god. The weapons Govannon make are unfailing in their aim and deadliness, the armor unfailing in its protection. Also a healer, he brewed the gods ale. Those who drink from his sacred cup need no longer fear old age and infirmity. He did not know who Dylan was when he slew him or possibly he slew out of envy over his nephew's ability to swim like a fish.

Dylan is brother of Lleu, a sun god and a hero god, young, strong, radiant with hair of gold, master of all arts, skills and crafts. One day Lleu arrived at the court of the Dagda and demanded to be admitted to the company of the gods. The gatekeeper asked him what he could do. For every skill or art Lleu named, the gatekeeper replied that there was already one among the company who had mastered it. Lleu at last pointed out that they had no one who had mastered them all, and so gained a place among the deities.

Lleu, the most popular and widely worshipped of the Celtic gods, in Ireland he is called Lugh or Lug. Lugh's most famous son was Cú Chulainn (Cu Chulainn), the greatest hero in Irish myth. His name in its various forms was taken by the cities of Lyons, Loudun, Laon, Leon, Lieden, Leignitz, Carlisle and Vienna.
I had read that Dylan's father chose his name after the 'fine boy-child with yellow hair' from the Welsh medieval romances The Mobinogion. And so of course the story had to start with cats the symbol for Chthonic power or gods which includes the Welsh sea god Dylan.

Just as appropriate is, "All the Christmases roll down toward the two-tongued sea...and they stop at the rim of the ice-edged, fish-freezing waves...at the rim of the carol-singing sea." I wonder if after time a lamenting sea could become a carol-singing sea?

Nellie Vrolyk
December 1, 2001 - 09:45 am
I don't have a cat, but just a small black poodle. Our neighbours have three cats, one of which is a regular visitor to our yard. He will sit on top of the six foot high fence like he is royalty while my little poodle dances below furiously barking.

Barbara, you always find such interesting information!

The sea images are interesting aren't they? There is: "the two-tongued sea"; "the carol-singing sea"; "the crackling sea"; "the forlorn sea"

Such lovely language in this story

parman
December 1, 2001 - 10:16 am
For example - the way he abruptly pulls you from childhood fantasy, back to the adult world - and in such a charming way. At the start, when he says it snowed for 6 days and 6 nights when he was twelve - and then, the adult comment - or was it twelve days and twelve nights, when I was six.

And he does things like that throughout. The eternal snows -- and then - eternal since Wednesday. He never lets you forget this is a reminiscence.

Also - the sly humor in almost everything he wrote is evidenced so typically here. The children run to call the fire brigade. So they say - let's call the police (logic) the ambulance (logic, again) - and then, with a bang -- "and Ernie Jenkins ...." So typical and logical for children to combine in their minds the practical reality and what is practical only to children.

Then, too, he has a way of crafting something so beautifully, that you stop and think: "How lovely" - and figure the sentence should end there, but on it goes, getting lovelier and lovelier. For example -- there were wolves in Wales (magnificent sound, no?) but it doesn't end - the sentence, and the images, pour on - for the length of the entire paragraph - save for one last exclamation point of a short sentence.

These things can't be taught - they are the heart and soul of the artist. And of course, the sneak punch of laughter: "the dutchess-faced horse." Too right. There was an English character actress, whose name I can't recall, whose face immediately leaped into my mind as I read the phrase .... she had that long upper lip and large teeth and kind of dizzy charm so typical of what a Dutchess or the queen (red, was it?) in Alice and Wonderland, should look like.

It reminds of something I thought of years and years ago - that there are really only three types of human faces ..... the dog face, the bird face and the horse face. Think of the people you know. And classify them quickly by that standard.

You'll probably find, as I do, that the ones that don't fit those types are the people without much personality. The strong personalities fall into the game quite nicely. Think about it. Geroge W Bush -- bird face. Bill Clinton - dog face. You can have lots of fun with that. And every once in awhile -- on a really lucky day - you'll discover a fish face. Men are easier to classify than women for some strange reason.

This I have learned about my game. Bird faces are that way mainly because there's something about the nose. Dog faces generally have faces that are about as wide as they are high. And horse faces need a long upper lip - and usually a high forehead, with a face much longer than it is wide. Fish faces? Can't really describe it - it's something you just "feel", if you're lucky.

How did I ever get on this track? Who knows?

YiLi Lin
December 1, 2001 - 11:17 am
Bronx Park- did I read Bronx Park......next to the Bronx River Parkway- which meanders along the river by the same name, and up about Bronxville or so is home to Canadian geese who create photo ops for passing motorists, especially when congregating around man-made snowpeople.

Love the dog face game- but engaged in a different reverie today, I tried to write in my mind my own winter seasons past in the style of Thomas- actually it was fun to see the past from afar and note it with a sense of history.

Barbara, not only do you find interesting stuff but you certainly have interesting discussions in general- do you pick the readings? you've done a fine job and I for one appreciate how you keep us moving forward.

parman
December 1, 2001 - 12:35 pm
At age 5 to 8, I lived on Bronx Boulevard, and the park spread out below us, down to the little river. In winter - the hill was our place for sledding - down, down, down toward the river - barely iced over. Would we stop ... could we... should we ... before the sleds took us right into the chilled water? What a temptation. What a game -- to glide, to glide, another yard, another foot - should I drag my feet, until - mothers shrieking from the crest of the hill - we rolled off - laughing - spitting snow - shaking ice loose from our mittens and the knitted cuffs of the bulky snowsuits.

And then, when the cold really came, and the little river iced over entirely - the skating. Me, with weak ankles and fat stomach, able only to skate on my ankles... my mother, graceful as a swan, gliding alongside, urging me up on the blades to no avail. Oh well, skating not my thing - nor skiing much later. Football much more to my liking.

By the way - did you know that the Bronx River - meandering little trickle - showed on very early maps as a much stronger waterway than it ever was, and became part of a British plan, during the revolution, to avoid the mighty Hudson, which had fortified banks - and sail up the Bronx River all the way north, to capture Albany? No wonder they lost the empire. If there was ever enough water in the stream to suport even fish, they would have to have been whitefish - or lox, given the character of the neighborhood.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 1, 2001 - 01:19 pm
My, thanks for all the Kudos - Now y'all know that if you have a book in mind that would be a good discussion please go to the suggestion box, click and post y'alls suggestion.

Hehe love the animal face game perman - is this the formula do you think used by political illustrators. Back to cats - weren't the faces in the show "Cats" a marvel. They sure have the power to rustle up a dog don't they Nellie - I notice around here even the Deer will give them a wide berth and I've even seen the night marauding cats attempting to nip at the Deer's hooves where as if a dog barks that Deer will put its head down and go for the yipping scadadling dog.

And yes, perman the juxtaposition of logical response with childhood logic is great. Did you also pick up the only calm and focused behavior came from the boys. Between Mr. Prothero assured there will not be any help and yet his action is "waving his slipper as though he were conducting" and Mrs Prothero crying "Fire!" while beating the gong for some unknown to help her, the boys seem a virtue in marshaling appropriate forces.

Then what really pulled me in was Dylan's use of the word 'peered' - as in "Jim's Aunt, Miss. Prothero, came downstairs and peered in at them" followed by this drum role of anticipation in the midst of all this chaos toward her statement "Would you like anything to read?"

In my head I played this scene as if all that proceeded was on a stage with a shear see-through curtain seperating us, the audiance, from this unfolding chaos on stage and then she slips out, holding the curtain a bit aside, allowing us to peer in and following her statement to the firemen the curtain opens so that we and the show are all one with one big belly laugh. Our defenses are down - on with the show - tra la.

I agree, Dylan's way with words is artistic magic but, having lived in Kentucky for 12 years back in the late 50s and through the 60s where I worked in the mountains a lot becuase of my work with Girl Scouting, the people have this lilt and way with words that is charming. Their story telling has a rhythm a bit similar to this read.

After WW2 road were built into this area and whole communities were found still living, dressing and talking Elizabethan English. After the whiskey tax there was no income base for their crop, since there is no way a crop can be transported down a mountain and on the rivers like barrels of whiskey and so, these communities became isolated. All that to say the lilt and way with words seems is carried out in the old songs and speach patterns of these mountain areas.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 1, 2001 - 01:36 pm
Hehe your sleigh riding antics reminds me perman of "our hill" - across from my home is a huge school yard - several acres on the edge of the mesa - the upper school yard is covered with live oak trees and is the backside of the elementary school. Down the huge hill, the side of the mesa, now covered in grass rather than the layers of rock exposed as on the other side of the school yards above the road, is the flats where there is a track, ball field, soccor fields, tennis courts, swimming pool and the Jr. High.

On this hill those that are new to hang gliding often come with their instructer to learn the techniques required, model plane buffs fly their plans and kites are flown in spring when the wind is not so strong out of the south. The neighbors often sit on top of the mesa to see the moon rise, the sun rise and observe celestial happenings -

Well when it does snow here, about every 5 years or so - children come from all over to go down the Murchison big hill - (Jr. High is Murchison) - of course no one owns a sleigh so there are garbage can lids, large cardboard boxes, a piece of formica that was in someone's garage, plastic dish tubs, an old skate board with the wheels knocked off - you name it - the glee is resounding and to see the littlest ones who do not know where to look since they had never seen snow - my heart whistles living where I can watch all this from my front porch.

I must add that on Saturdays there are at least 20 soccor teams playing at one time and because this hill absorbs all sound I can look over and it is like a silent movie watching all these colorful bodies kicking and running and from their look you just know they are screaming their heads off.

parman
December 1, 2001 - 02:21 pm
Speaking of imaginative substitutes for sleds... some comedian once said "When I was a kid, we were too poor for me to have a sled, so I slid down the hill on my cousin Sophie. Now there's an image for you.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 1, 2001 - 05:00 pm
OH my, heheha, OK - just as long as my name isn't Sophie. No sleigh-riding for Dylan either it appears. He had more fun it seems smoking make believe candy cigarettes and throwing snowballs.

perman fill us in - what are your childhood memories of your holidays - did you celebrate your Jewish heritage or did your family succumb to the secular Christmas? Did your family prepare special meals or sweets and did y'all exchange presents?

parman
December 1, 2001 - 09:53 pm

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 1, 2001 - 11:26 pm
Hmmm Found this site. It is certainly affirming our efforts to write about our childhood holiday memories.
Constructing life stories provides us an opportunity to discover our experience is replete with meaning. A life reviewed reaffirms the validity of our journey, showing us that through all mistakes and pain, there was also joy and bliss.

The mere act of writing our stories helps us put into perspective what we have gained and lost. We find themes that thread through the tapestry of life; we identify what Germans called lebenslauf, the sweep of life.

It is a natural stage of human development for elders to look back over life in an attempt to make sense of it. Writing their story can offer comfort as well as the sweet magic of insight. "Yes, that's what my life has been about!"

Read more - the site includes links to writing aids. Association of Personal Historians

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 1, 2001 - 11:51 pm
What do y'all think - Dylan Thomas does describe the landscape, in great detail but what about the interior scenes - does he describe them as well. Does the difference imply an attitude toward Dylan's reality (or "the world")? How does his young boy, Dylan, relate to the town as compared to his home. Could you imagine this story happening where you live or for that matter in a city like London?

Malryn (Mal)
December 2, 2001 - 06:48 am
This story well could have happened where I grew up in New England where it snowed from December to Spring. Though not far from the center of the small city where I lived, we lived across from a pond on a dirt country road that had no streetlights. Behind the house was a hill dotted with tall spruce trees where we took sleds and had great thrills sliding down.

I can remember imagining all sort of things, including wolves that might stand howling on a moonlit winter's night at the crest of that hill.

The pond also conjured up all kinds of pictures in my mind. It froze nearly solid in the winter, and we'd mush over to it through the snow, clear a spot with shovels and skate. You have no idea what I thought was over there at night when I looked out my bedroom window.

The Northwest wind howled over that pond in the winter, and lying in bed at night as a kid I could hear it say all kinds of extraordinary things. Sometimes I scared myself so much I pulled the quilts right over my head.



Three years ago my daughter and her partner and I shared a rented house at the top of a very steep hill in a North Carolina country setting. There was only one other house in sight, and we were surrounded by woods. Christmas morning we got up and began the preparations for the dinner. The turkey went in the oven, and the electricity went off.

Breakfast was cooked on the little woodstove in the livingroom. My daughter put the biscuits she made into an iron skillet and baked them on the stove. They and the eggs we had were the best I ever ate. Dinner was a different story. The turkey was roasted all day in front of flames from that stove. It tasted all right, but by nightfall the house was very cold every other place except in front of the little stove. We had become impatient because we had no lights, heat and water. Well pumps don't work when the power goes off. We had to relax and enjoy it, though, wrapped up in blankets as we all were, because the electricity didn't go back on for two more days.

The next year it snowed 20 inches right after Christmas. This was unheard of in this part of the South. No one could get out of the house until my daughter, her friend and neighbors cleared two lanes for car tires down the hill. When she and Jim got their cars down the hill, there was no way they could get them back up. I was snowed in for three weeks because the snow plows could not get up the steep, steep hill to plow the snow.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 2, 2001 - 07:31 am
Holy Hannah - that is snowed in! I loved the part when as a kid you pulled the quilt over your head as protection against the imagined voice of the North Wind - love it!

Ok Malryn of Sonata (did I spell it correctly) I finally put the words together for that Chirstmas poem you asked about earlier - here goes - and you just know I will be tinkering and tinkering with this on my saved file
Dirt, the body; Water, the mind;
Wind, emotions; Fire is energy.
Smoke, the spirit, in peace by the word,
In crisis by the sword, within or without when
indoctrination fails.

When time, echoed long before the lamp
Now longer since the darkness
In the east wind has arisen
And a hundred nights are eyeless.

When fire, curls smoke whirls in winter chill
Candles weep their wick away
Morning in her mirror sees
Crystal hoarfrost blown array.

While doves, enchant where olives grow
Turban three rim sounds of time
Trade stars while moon clouds bending low
Burst mountain carols, Peace by Thy Word.

Ad Deum, qui laetificat juventutem meam
Gloria Gloria Saint Nicholas rose
Children, we grieve our night wails, benumb
In excelsis gloria, our baby wiggles his toes


*To God, who giveth joy to my youth

Malryn (Mal)
December 2, 2001 - 07:41 am
Thanks, Barbara. Your images are quite beautiful.

Mal

parman
December 2, 2001 - 10:38 am
Sorry about the teaser - didn't mean it to be a teaser, but the Gods that rule the internet took away my stuff and left just a bare-neckid title. So here's some flesh.

I don't think my experience was unique - in the mid-30's, the Jewish community was still trying pretty hard to assimilate and become "Yankees." At least, my mother's family was pretty non-observant. Her father, an escapee from conscription into the Russian Army, had discovered Marx and Lenin, and so neither Christmas nor Chanukah meant anything to him, Mayday being his favorite holiday.

My dad's family was different - kind of Orthodox, so when we went to see THEM, we celebrated Chanukah - and I learned all about the oil that burned for 8 days and 8 nights - and the bravery of Judah Maccabee - but that all paled before the joys of my grandmother's potato latkes. Between my dad and my uncle and my cousins, we stood in line right at the stove and overwhelmed my grandma, who grated, sucked at her skinned knuckles, rapped my hand with a wooden spoon if I grabbed before they were precisely the right shade of gold, and after stuffing ourselves just up to, but not beyond, the bursting point, we tried to remember that it was, after all a religious occasion (yeah, sure - tell that to a bunch of hungry kids). At my grandparents' house, Chanukah gifts were not lavish - they were the tradition Chanukah "gelt" - which meant a quarter, or a half-dollar, or a buck - depending on your age... but once in awhile, if Grandma's rheumatism allowed, she'd knit or crochet some scarves, but not too often - and she would always admonish us not to become so "American" that we forget our traditions. And no matter how American I became, I never did forget.

But that didn't prevent me from enjoying even more, the celebration on my mom's side - which was Christmas, full bore and top speed, and who can come up with the most presents?

Of course, it never was carried so far as to include a tree - I still laugh over the adventure one year, when I was 8, and my mother succumbed to my pleadings, and bought a scrawny little tree - and put a few decorations on it. Then, my dad came home - took one look - and said "what's THAT?" My mother quietly said "He wanted it" - a classic cop-out -- you know - blame the kid. Well, Dad said "Either THAT goes, or I go." So my mother went across the hall to a friend's apartment - he was a projectionist at a local movie house - and asked him if he wanted a little tree for the theatre lobby. So Mac Katz (obviously NOT an Irish-American, right?) came across the hall - picked up the tree with the very tips of his fingers - said a little prayer in Yiddish - and whisked it away. End of Christmas trees in my life - but NOT the end of Christmas.

The family would gather at either our house, or an uncles, each of which featured a baby grand piano, where all the gifts were piled - and if you didn't see the mezuzah on the door, you'd never know it wasn't a gentile home .... talk about assimilation. My Uncle Sam dressed up as Santa Claus, he should rest in peace. God forgave him, I'm sure -- after all - at that time of year, even God could get confused. So my cousins and I really believed in Santa Claus - until at age 7 or so, I put two and two together and came up with "Uncle Sam." He mistakenly presented his masked face to me, for a kiss, and when I realized it taste like cardboard, the jig was up. Of course, when I broke the news to the other kids, being the oldest and wisest, they were so miserable they wouldn't talk to me until Spring.

And so life went - Christmas at my mother's family - Chanukah at my dad's -- and with double the loot, who complained?

When I got married, however, it was a different story -- Chanukah became the name of the holiday at our house - not that the Niagara of presents changed much - nor the location under MY piano. You know something? I never suffered - never really felt any ambivalence - joined in lustily singing Christmas Carols at school W(although I do admit that when Jesus' name came up in the song, I just hummed) - even at college, where it was a tradition for the fraternities to serenade the sorority houses, and who was I to miss such a chance?

Today, my oldest daughter, married to a lovely Irish-American guy, celebrates both holidays - even though her 2 daughters (my first grandchildren - one now 18, the other 12 going on 23) never received any religious education at all. So there's a tree - surrounded by a few menorahs on the adjoining walls -- they light the Chanukah candles, decorate the tree -- have gifts on both holidays when they don't fall within a few days of each other- like this year, when Chanukah starts Decmeber 10th.

And they don't have any problem with that, either. So I kind of look askance at all the hullabaloo that has grown up about banning Christmas decorations on town property - and not daring to mention either holiday in schools. As a matter of fact, the only confusion I ever felt involved the correct spelling of the holiday. Is it Chanukah? Or Hannukah? Or any other variation? I finally settled that one, too. If you could manage the Yiddish "cchhh" - which originates at the back of the throat, then it's Chanukah - and you're probably either Orthodox or Conservative. If you can't - then its Hannukah, and you must be Reformed, or married to a shikse.

As for me - I still love both holidays - and wish everybody would spend more time concentrating on bringing people together in some kind of harmony, than pointing up all the differences that only lead to conflict. The world is complicated enough without looking for trouble.

So today, I skin MY knuckles grating the potatoes, and then go over to my daughter's house to help decorate the Chanukah bush -- oops, the Christmas tree. See what happens when you can't get things straight in your mind?

Oh yes - there IS one big complication. On Christmas Day, if you're Jewish, the big problem is finding a restaurant that's open, where you can eat dinner after seeing a movie in a half-empty theatre. Of course, there's always Chinese.

Vive le difference. Or not, as the spirit moves you.

Malryn (Mal)
December 2, 2001 - 10:44 am
That was great, Parman. You really made me smile.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 2, 2001 - 10:54 am
Love it parman - great - the best line - "...the jig was up. Of course, when I broke the news to the other kids, being the oldest and wisest, they were so miserable they wouldn't talk to me until Spring." hehehehe I'm rolling on that one.

parman what is a shikse?

parman
December 2, 2001 - 12:21 pm
YOU, my dear,are a shikse ... that is - a non-Jewish, or Gentile, female.The male counterpart is a shagetz (SHAY-gets.) Taken in total, the gentile world are Goyim.

When my son married a "shikse" some years back, I bought her a very whimsical paperback -- can't remember the exact title, but it was something like "Yiddish for non-Jewish wives." Quite funny, it was, and Vivian thanked me for it for years -- that is, until the divorce. No- seriously, she has remained closer to me than my own son -- I told her when they married, that she had become my daughter, not my daughter-in-law, whatever that meant. Well, it sounded good, but as it turns out - it was quite accurate. And over the years, she even learned some of the art of Jewish cooking - which, as practiced by many a Yiddishe momma, is designed to leave large lumps of dough at the bottom of your stomach for a week or so, defying digestion.

I always got a kick of the comedian, Buddy Hackett, who commented on his mother's cooking thusly: "I never knew what heartburn was until I was drafted into the army, and my fire went out."

For a wonderful insight into what immigrants (not just Jews, but Italians, Germans, etc, etc, etc.) faced in learning to be an American, you have to go way, way back to a book about immigrants in evening language classes by Leo Rosten (written under the name Leonard Q. Ross, I believe), called: "The Education of H*Y*M*A*N K*A*P*L*A*N." (This is the way Kaplan wrote his name.) It's probably still available in most libraries - although who can account for Texas libraries? (LOL).

Okay, Barbara - are you sorry yet that you asked me to comment?

Malryn (Mal)
December 2, 2001 - 02:45 pm
Hey, Parman, I thought shikse had a negative connotation and wouldn't be used for nice women like Barbara and me?

Have you seen the Chanukah section in the current issue of Sonata magazine for the arts? There's a page all about Chanukah, and there are three original stories about it right after that page. Click the right arrow at the bottom of each page to access more pages. Following that there's a page of Chanukah recipes, including one for latkes, brisket, chopped chicken liver, kugel and rugelah.

Not only that, there are stories about Christmas and Christmas recipes and a page about Kwanzaa and Kwanzaa recipes. Scroll down past the Thanksgiving stories listed on the index cover and take a look!

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
December 2, 2001 - 02:56 pm
I have a friend here in NC who makes the best latkes I ever ate. Wonder if I can con her into bringing some over to mostly-confined-to-the-house me? Guess I'll give her a call.

The Education of H*Y*M*A*N K*A*P*L*A*N is a very funny and good book. Thanks for reminding me, Parman.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
December 2, 2001 - 02:56 pm
Parman:--There's no way I could come up with the great humor that you have (I hope over the years you have had some of your thoughts published - Marilyn???) but I will briefly tell of my childhood Christmases.

My Christmas memories -- as a child, not always the adult ones -- were always happy ones. I was (and am) an only child. My father was a World War I veteran and received a 100% disability pension. This meant that my father didn't go off to work and while I did not have any brothers or sisters, I did have a set of parents in the house.

My mother was of Swedish heritage and celebrated Christmas in the usual Nordic-American way. She was Protestant. My father was of Italian heritage, raised Catholic, but converted when he married my mother. So while my uncles (his brothers) and my Italian grandparents made Christmas a very holy day, complete with votive candles, trips to the Church, Christmas trees with Jesus in the Manger under it and branches decorated with holy symbols, visits by the Priest, and sometimes religious parades outside (they lived in the city, I lived in the country) -- in our house and that of our rural neighbors Christmas had an all-American look.

I was the apple of my mother's eye. I guess I knew that as a child but only many years later did I come to realize how much she and my father sacrificed for me. I received presents which were financially far beyond the limit of the meager WWI pension that vets received in those days. (Remember the veterans march on Washington in those days because so many of them were poverty stricken?) So underneath the tree on Christmas mornings there were always presents reminding me of how much I was loved. I have no memory of what each of my parents gave to the other but I have no doubt that I received 95% of the "loot."

And then, of course, there was Santa Claus. We had no fireplace in our small humble house. It had no furnace either. It was heated by a coal stove in the dining room with a pipe leading to the chimney. I was always bothered that Santa had no way of getting into the house but was assured that Santa was not a dumbbell. My father always made it a point to leave the inside door leading to the cellar open and was told that Santa would come in that way. Each year I dutifully hung my stocking right next to that door. I knew the "orange and coal" story for "good and bad" boys because we kids always talked about it but in my house I always felt comfortable that coal was not in the picture.

In those days I slept in a Morris Chair (anyone remember those?) It opened out flat to make a bed the right size for a small child and I always slept on this right near the stove and which, coincidentally, was not too far away from that very important door. One Christmas night -- I was seven years old at the time -- I woke up just in time to see my father putting gifts into the stocking. And so much for that! One era of my childhood ended but Christmas did not.

One November when I was nine years old I was told that I would have the usual Christmas gifts but also a special gift on December 1st. While rummaging around in the attic that November where I wasn't supposed to be, I spotted a poorly hidden brand new bicycle and gleefully told my parents that I had found the December 1st present. They told me that I was a bit wrong with the dates -- that the bicycle was the big gift to be given to me on Christmas and I couldn't touch it until then. The December 1st gift turned out to be my very first account in the bank -- I believe it was $2. It was a marvelous Christmas.

Two months later my mother died from a kidney infection. My father tried in his sort-of inept way to continue my Christmases but they were never the same. Not that they were unhappy but the light in my life had gone out and maturity had settled in a bit earlier than it is supposed to. My father never married again (probably because I made a fuss that I would have only one mother) but I still had my mother's sister and my father's brothers who continued to shower me with books and other gifts.

Christmas throughout my childhood furnished happy memories and for this I am grateful.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
December 2, 2001 - 03:00 pm
What a wonderfully moving story, Robby. Thank you.

Mal

Nellie Vrolyk
December 2, 2001 - 03:33 pm
Robbie, I enjoyed that lovely memory of yours.

Parman, smiled while reading yours

The interiors in Dylan's story are not at all well described; but that may be because young boys don't notice what is inside a house. What is noticed is the fire which provides warmth to a young fellow who has come in from playing out in the cold and snow. The mistletoe hanging from the gas brackets is noticed for to get to close to it means being kissed, and boys that age do not care to be kissed.

When the aunt asked the firemen "Would you like anything to read?" I was reminded of the book Fahrenheit 451 by Bradbury.

When we first lived in Canada I remember that there were blizzards that would pile the snow up in waist high and sometimes higher drifts and how much fun my brothers and I would have plowing our way through. Each winter my dad would level the snow on an even patch of ground near the house we lived in and make a skating rink; and when the ice froze solid on a nearby slough (pond) we would clear off the snow and skate there also. I always liked the homemade skating rink best because the ice on the pond usually had ridges and cracks that caught my skates and sent me flying.

parman
December 2, 2001 - 04:08 pm
Robby, that was such a lovely piece. It was a kind of "smile through the tears when I came to the end. I find that's becoming much more common the older I get -- the tears, I mean. I find things so much more touching than I did in my youth, just yesterday.

Shikse a negative, Mal? Of course, it was a negative. In the days when the word was very much more in style, ANYTHING not Jewish was a negative, for goodness sake. At least it was to my Grandma ... the most delightfully prejudiced woman I ever knew. Lived to be 102 - and her life was full of things like: "Dinah Shore? Who told her she could sing?" Or on baseball: "Bums - they're all bums." And she delighted in calling Eddie Stanky her own pet name...."Nu, so how's Stinky?" I've been planning a book about her (my Nana, as we called her) for some time now - and I've started jotting down all the little vignettes.

I was reminded of her recently, when I saw Barry Levinson's charming little film about the Jews in Baltimore - part of his trilogy that also contains the marvelous "Avalon". This one is "Liberty Heights." It's the late 40's - or 50's - and the young Jewish teen-ager has his first romantic attachment and it's with a Negro classmate. (It was OK to say Negro in those days - the appellation carousel hadn't yet started). And when he tells his mother, her first words - without even a pause for breath, was: "Kill me now -- kill me now!" And that was nothing compared to the Bubbe's reaction. (Bubbe is Yiddish from Grandma) Ever hear of a bubba meise? That's a derogatory term for an old wive's tale.

Hey - I didn't intend to make my first exposure on this forum a dissertation on Yiddishism - especially when the subject started out as Christmas. I don't really speak the language - but after all these years of exposure to it, I understand it.

I have to stop talking so much here - I'll wear out my welcome in no time.

YiLi Lin
December 2, 2001 - 05:11 pm
Did you'all have visits to department store Santa's? what was the explanation for all those streetside santas ringing bells-

robert b. iadeluca
December 2, 2001 - 05:19 pm
Parman:--Now that you mentioned "tears," I will admit that I was crying when I came to the point of writing of my mother's death. I am 81 years old and can still re-live something that happened when I was nine. The little boy is still inside of me.

Robby

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 2, 2001 - 05:58 pm
Welcome Robby Thank you for sharing your poignant story about your childhood memories of Christmas. You also hold such loss that is centered around holiday memories. And yet, there was so much love you were able to tap into and fondly remember as well. As busy as you are with your History of Civilizationdiscussion this was a real gift to us - your taking the time to share your story. Thanks Robby.

Parman - No way do you wear out your welcome - this is sooooo great to get a view of Jewish culture from up North - believe it or not I live in what we in Austin would consider an area of Jewish families. The large Jewish Center recently built with money donated by Michael Dell, yes of Dell computer fame, he grew up here and remains living here in Austin, is located within walking distance of my home.

On certain holidays we have many a family walking to their services. The H.E.B.; one of the largest grocery chains in Texas with the very Baptist owners, the Butt family, having a Jewish restaurant and Kosher food section in the H.E.B. market in this area. It is run by Jewish men who wear some kind of vest like garment with strings hanging, all bearded, with I think they are call yamakas (spelling) always on their heads and the women all wear simple white blouses and black skirts.

We simply do not have an isolated Jewish population so that speech patterns or cultural differences are noted. We shitke's work-out or take classes as members of the Jewish Center. Classes are opened to all and are the usual hobby type available in most community centers. In Austin, like most areas, you are TEXAN first and than what ever else you choose to be.

We do have a very large, in fact whole communities of German folk where grade school was taught in German until the early 1970s, they are mostly ranchers. East of Austin, half way to Houston, we have many old Czech and Wendish communities where the first language is still Czech and Wend. East is more dairy and cotton.

And than of course we all have a major Mexican population. Now that is the culture that has a the greatest impression on our language, food, culture. Illegals are the main addition to our labor force. We wouldn't have any houses without the Illegals and they work the low paying labor positions, have for generations, usually going back home starting about now and returning the end of January. This brings the ‘new home’ housing market to a standstill each year.

All that to say I think the (street) knowledge of Jewish cultural is particular to other areas of the nation and I would suspect centered in the Northeast, particularly the New York area in addition to 'show business'.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 2, 2001 - 07:44 pm
Yili Lin talk about street Santa's - How do parents explain this - went to see Harry Potter with my Grands, twins age 11, Chris age 12 and the theater had an advertizement showing a group of Santa's in various stages of costume enjoying coffee in some common room - you could hear an audible gasp by all the younger kids and then it was as silent that a pin dropping would be like a roaring bomb. Shesh before a children's movie - doesn't anyone use their brain any longer! And then we wonder where all the magic goes in our youth.

Nellie Golly y'all who live in the frozen north sure have adventures with ice and snow - waist deep snow, my oh my. Haven't read Fahrenheit 451 by Bradbury. I'll look into it next time I'm in a book store.

I also was struck that in the story so much discription was lavished on the outside world and much less on his surroundings inside. I found that question in a Lit site and it got me wondering - Dylan certainly had a way with describing people inside his and neighbor's homes but not the scenery so to speak as he so poetically discribes scenery in the out-of-doors. As if he was on good terms with his own character but not necessarily his emotional relationship to himself. I am just talking here - but I do think it is interesting - some student of Jung could probably give us a better understanding - but it as if his way with words, cocky bravado and focused ability to pin point the idiosyncrasy's of other got him through life rather than, any self-examination or recognition of himself.

Malryn [ I've learned ] all these fabulous stories makes you want to gather them up into a scrape book doesn't it - did you participate in the Greatest Generation discussion? That was another with so many memories that needed preserving. In fact when I think of the discussions that are archieved there is a world of wonder in both memories and wisdom in the morgue [as in using a newspaper term]

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 2, 2001 - 08:09 pm
An uncle played the fiddle,...another uncle sang "Drake's Drum."

Sir Francis Drake's Drum

Hum along with "a cousin sang "Cherry Ripe," a site with English Tunes includes Cherry Ripe

"Cherry Ripe" - Text by Thomas Campion (1567-1620) Music Set by Geoffrey Bush (b. 1920)

parman
December 2, 2001 - 08:20 pm
No, dahlink - you're not a shitke, God forbid, but a shikse. I'm not sure what a shitke is, but it sure don't sound very good, you heah?

OK. the lesson continues. The vest-like garment with fringes is tsitkses. There's an orthodox command that Jewish men wear it under whatever other garment is on the outside. I find a tee shirt mich easier to wear. Believe me, Gucci didn't design it. And from Tommy Hilfier, it aint.

And Ralph Lauren, that nice Jewish boy from Brooklyn, who wants people to think he comes from the English hunt country - he knows what they are, but pleads ignorance.

Robby - believe me, my friend, you don't have to go back to childhood memories to elicit tears. When the Death With Dignity site becomes active again, I'll relate two stories that I guarantee will bring tears, and they're both quite recent occurrences.

Barbara, the Jewish community you speak of in your area is obviously an Orthodox one. The skullcap you speak of is a yarmulke - but many people simply call it a beanie -- same thing, no? Unless it has a little propeller attached. Then it becomes something that even the great Rabbi Eleazer couldn't explain.

I don't know how this site became, suddenly, a fount of Jewish lore - I haven't held forth like this in many, many years, but I seem to surprise even myself -- I never realized I knew so much (LOL).

It's a funny thing, but here in the northeast, in big cities, in massive apartment houses, one can have next door neighbors whose names are unknown - and who are only acknowledged by an impersonal nod in the elevator. But there seems to be a sense of community among Jews in the south that is far different, Barbara - and perhaps you have noticed it. I served in the army many years ago, and one of my barracks mates was a young Jewish kid from Nashville. You name a Jewish family anywhere south of Baltimore, and he knew who they were. And I have found that to be true everywhere outside the major metropolitan areas.

Okay - I've said this before - but that's enough. Stop asking, will you please? Unless, of course, you want to expand this idea into the literature of Jewish Americans. That opens up an incredible treasure chest of experience. The novels of Bernard Melamud. The shtetl stories of Isaac Bashevis Singer, and his brother, I.B. Singer ...the translated stories of Sholem Asch...the marvelous tales of Sholom Aleichem... the provocative columns of Sidney Zion and Roger Rosenblatt... the political commentary of Bill Safire and Tom Friedman, the wisdom of Max Frankel and Abe Rosenthal and Max Lerner and Murray Kempton ...the great sports writing of Jerry Izenberg and Shirley Povich and Jesse Abramson. It is truly an incredible panoply of intellectualism that represents the enormous output of first and second generation American Jews, who have contributed so mightily to the stew pot culture of this country.

If you placed the works of these Jews - alongside the marvelous works of the Irish-Americans, like the Hamill brothers, and Jimmy Breslin and Jimmy Cannon - and Frank and Malachy McCourt ... along with James Baldwin and Richard Wright and Ralph Ellison and Toni Morrison and the other prolific Black Americans, you begin to understand the strength that this country has has derived from the same diversity that has also tended to divide us, one group against the other. It is the classic ambivalence of the American experience ... the experience that has made us at once the wonder and the quandary of the world.

Once again, I ask myself, where did all this come from so suddenly - and why am I boring these good people with these meanderings of mine?

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 2, 2001 - 08:38 pm
Ok is that my new ID the linker hehehe Dah Linker - I love it - it sure pegged me as the one who can find more links - although I notice Linda is doing her fair share of finding and sharing links to further our knowledge about whatever is being discussed. AND parman no way you saying bore - We did name this site Holiday Nostalgia with Dylan Thomas for just that reason!

Reading Simon Wiesenthal's "The Sunflower" now and Frankel became a bible for me when I was going through a particularly rough patch in my life. Reading as a group any one of the authors you mentioned would be a great opportunity for us to really understand the text with you around - we need to add one of these books to our line up don't we.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 3, 2001 - 01:35 pm
Good heavens - found this and no wonder the Cats were fair game for young boys - it was probably a left over from earlier times when the Yule Cat was something to really fear. Seems this rhyme was known by the woman weavers. In real life if they did not weave the quota expected they did not get their annual allotment of newly woven clothes for their families.
You all know the Yule Cat
And that Cat was huge indeed.
People didn't know where he came from
Or where he went.



He opened his glaring eyes wide,
The two of them glowing bright.
It took a really brave man
To look straight into them.



His whiskers, sharp as bristles,
His back arched up high.
And the claws of his hairy paws
Were a terrible sight.



He gave a wave of his strong tail,
He jumped and he clawed and he hissed.
Sometimes up in the valley,
Sometimes down by the shore.



He roamed at large, hungry and evil
In the freezing Yule snow.
In every home
People shuddered at his name.



If one heard a pitiful "meow"
Something evil would happen soon.
Everybody knew he hunted men
But didn't care for mice.



He picked on the very poor
That no new garments got
For Yule - who toiled
And lived in dire need.



From them he took in one fell swoop
Their whole Yule dinner
Always eating it himself
If he possibly could.



Hence it was that the women
At their spinning wheels sat
Spinning a colorful thread
For a frock or a little sock.



Because you mustn't let the Cat
Get hold of the little children.
They had to get something new to wear
From the grownups each year.



And when the lights came on, on Yule Eve
And the Cat peered in,
The little children stood rosy and proud
All dressed up in their new clothes.



Some had gotten an apron
And some had gotten shoes
Or something that was needed
That was all it took.



For all who got something new to wear
Stayed out of that pussy-cat's grasp
He then gave an awful hiss
But went on his way.



Whether he still exists I do not know.
But his visit would be in vain
If next time everybody
Got something new to wear.



Now you might be thinking of helping
Where help is needed most.
Perhaps you'll find some children
That have nothing at all.



Perhaps searching for those
That live in a lightless world
Will give you a happy day
And a Merry, Merry Yule.

So that is why I guess we got new clothes at Christmas and why we still give sweaters and nightware and shirts etc. as Christmas gifts. It must have been a tradition that we are barely familiar with today.

Ol Imp
December 3, 2001 - 05:57 pm
I noticed that when I was in a Pub in Amroth, Wales (not Cardiff) and Upper Gravenhurst, England (not London) there was an exchange that went on - whereby ,I found out about the neighborhood and what was going on - Over a pint in a Pub ,conversation was straight across.- You had a feeling for the rhythm of the community -

When I was a child in San Diego CA , I had a feeling for the neighborhood - I knew a lot of the kids and people within a 3 block radius - I , don't think this happens anymore.

When I lived in the San Fernando Valley Los Angeles, I didn't know my next door neighbors - a loss of rhythm and community.

To this day, in nostalgia I can name the kids in the neighborhood and where they lived - there were many differences, but we got along - Hey! there was a neat little Barbara on Grove street that liked to throw rocks with me - And the hill behind Ernesto's house had the best grass for sliding down into the canyon on with our pieces of cardboard -

We had a lot of different ways of expressing christmas both cultural and belief system wise.

I'm afraid that our "little boxes" in the suburbs with our security systems has distanced us from those around us - Other than being part of our Laugharne ,we don't trust it - We have made it an unsafe spot to be, from our lack of communication - Maybe we need more Pubs.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 3, 2001 - 06:34 pm
Now I'da chunked rocks with ya Ol Imp if y'da he'p me can some polywogs out'a the creek.

I've a Christmas fireworks story for y'all - it is a wonder that there weren't more tragic accidents in that the boys would shoot rockets at each other from across the road and my boys were forever coming home with burnt jackets.

But one year we all desided to get in on the fun and fun happened alright. We had the sack of fireworks on the curb at the front of the house shooting them across the top of the Mesa over the schoolyard to what then was just scrub land. Well what ever happened we had a wayward rocket that yes, you guessed it, it hit the sack of fireworks - well you never saw such a bunch of scattering as we all hit the ground running into the house, dog yipping tail tucked, cat flew to the backyard screeching, neighbor kids flying to their houses - it was a sight to behold as everything went up at once in all directions. Nothing landed on the roof thank goodness but out came the hose when the show was over.

FaithP
December 3, 2001 - 08:38 pm
Most all of us have Christmas memories and traditions. It was great reading Dylan Thomas again. I had forgotten his way with language. That is my great grandson's name ( who is three this year )He is going to be a piano player he says, when he grows up.

In the 30's at Tahoe we were allowed to just go cut down our own tree on a friends property though I believe there were regulations regarding Tahoe National Forest. I know there were many wild plants we had to protect from the tourists and had laws to back us up too.

I always wanted to catch a tourist trying to "steal" a snowdrop plant. These are a beautiful fungi that grow on the roots of pine trees. They sprout after a cold winter under the snow and when the snow starts to melt up come these bright red plants that look like a succulant, fire red,upside down pine cone. It was a rare plant and we loved to find one but that is way off the topic of christmas traditions.

We stung cranberries, popcorn and made colored paper chains for our tree. We had "favorite ornaments" and most years we broke one and bought one if there were nickles in the pot. We had a silver star for the top of the tree that I loved. We recieved our Santa Claus via the post office and Sears Roebuck. Also grandparents down in the city (San Francisco remains the "City" in my mind always) sent crates of oranges and sometimes a box of winter pears from friends in Auburn. Those oranges were like gold to my mom. The grocery stores got a few in each week, but at such prices that she couldnt afford them so the ones grandparents sent were protected and doled out carefully. Mother had wonderful ways of getting us to take our Cod Liver Oil too in the winter. Walnuts and Dates were also a big part of my holiday food memories.

We children made gifts for each other. I hemmed a lot of hankerchiefs and head scarfs, dishtowels, and when older, aprons. When I learned to embroider then on went the decorations. My big brother carved things, and built models, and puppets. And when he was older like seventh grade he made marionettes. He was very clever with his hands. And so was my little brother who was always an artist and a comic.

The winter my littlest sister was turning two my mother gathered all of us around her one evening after dinner and we were all around the Kitchen table with the Catalog out. She talked to us about Christmas and how there was very little money but we were going to draw names then we would each buy one other person a present but before she decided on a price limit she wanted us to decide if we could take the certain amount of money(i do not remember how much but know it was very little) and before dividing it between we "big" kids, could we spend 4.98 for a small rocking chair for the baby and keep it a secret as a Santa Clause Present? She said, "I know it is way more than we can spend on each other but you children have all had a nice gift from Santa at one Christmas or another and now with your Dad gone we should see that the baby has one nice thing."We all agreed and naturally we would but also we all felt like we individually had given that chair to the baby. It was a good feeling. And knowing it was cutting into the rest of our gifts just made it more giving. I would have given more if Mother asked. I am sure she knew that. And all of we older children felt wonderful that Mother had ask us as grownups to do this thing. That was the best Christmas I ever had. We got to order a two doller item for our gift to the name we drew. It could be a toy or what ever we wanted to give. This was our two doller gift and so I gave my older sister whose name I drew a pair of red gloves and a red scarf.I though she would look beautiful in the snow with her red scarf and gloves. You could do a lot with two dollers in the 30's. Faith

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 3, 2001 - 09:34 pm
Oh Faith thank you - thank you - thank you - what a beautiful post - tears through my smile - to feel so much love just because you were port of the decission making - such a wise and loving mother you had. So much of your story sounds like the wonderful Christmas books that are illustrated with family memebers sewing and cooking and making presents in wood. Then to be surrounded by the forest - the memory pictures you must have --

And yes, we have all been in awe with Dylan's way with words - every sentence is like an interesting wonder on the tongue. Did you have a particular favorite section of the story or a favorite character?

Oh yes, faith if you have time flip back to some of the earlier posts - i wish I could remmber the post number - but the story of Dylan is there in that the name is from the Welsh myth and Dylan is a sea god. I'm thinking of your grandson and how much fun it would be to share the story with him.

FaithP
December 4, 2001 - 12:54 pm
Barb the first thing I did this morning was go back in this discussion and begin reading. Every post. Well what a wonderful morning it has been. New friends and old to "share" with.

Many people picked out the snow theme and of course that is dear to my heart as most all of my Christmas' were in the snow. But not all, and after '48 only by going on purpose to the Ranch we had did we get the children into the snow for Christmas vacation. But it was a few inches of snow and not the "eternal snow" of my childhood. That line,,,eternal snow, at least since last wednesday,,, is perfect. Just perfect.

I love the Auntie who drank and sang in the back yard. I am that kind of Auntie sans the Christmas grog the last 20 odd years. I have embarressed my children and husband mightely with my shouted, joyful singing. Well, I call it singing no matter what.

I bore a Welsh name for 25 years being known as Mrs. Ed Cowperthwaite. My own family name of Pyle could be Welsh. My brother Howard says no it is not. I wanted it to be so I could be associated with the likes of Our Author and Richard Burton and Anthony Hopkins etc.

Anyway Friend Barb I copied the information on the name Dylan and will send it to my great grandson Dylan Thomas as a christmas gift to keep in his scrapbook if that is ok. Let me know. fp

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 4, 2001 - 01:56 pm
Faith I am tickled that you have some further information about the name to send to your precious Dylan.

Aren't the posts just grand - I almost feel like copying everyone's post about their childhood Christmas and making a scrape book to share sans their names for my children rather than my grands - just to let them have a look at what Christmas was like before or during WW2 because those are the years that I can see are represented here. There is a real culture difference compared to the Christmas since the 50s that comes through as a thread in all these posts. I'm wondering if part of the difference is that rhythm in a community that Ol Imp mentioned.

Dylan Thomas's story may be continually read for its wonderful words and construction of story but I am thinking, few of those born after 1950 could really identify their own life experience to the bits and pieces of this story. And today's children could no more imagine deciding to get a few of their chums together and without an organization behind them go caroling. Our neighborhoods are not just a mixture of cultures but within each family the generation difference is a wonder to explore as well.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 4, 2001 - 02:24 pm
The last out-of-doors adventure the boys have in this story is the caroling.
We reached the black bulk of the house.
"What shall we give them? Hark the Herold?"

No," Jack said, "Good King Wencelas. I'll count three...

And then a small, dry voice, like the voice of someone who has not spoken for a long time, joined our singing: a small, dry, eggshell voice from the other side of the door: a small dry voice through the keyhole..."

"Perhaps it was a ghost," Jim said.
"Perhaps it was trolls," Dan said, who was always reading.
"Let's go in and see if there's any jelly left," Jack said.

The spooky fear "it was a ghost...trolls" reminds me of going to a scary movie just to enjoy feeling scared while eating popcorn or jelly babies in your seat.

Interesting information about the carol - it was chosen in 1853 by Johne Mason Neale as the subject for a children’s song to exemplify generosity. Good King Wenceslas.

Does Dylan and his chums come across as especially generous to you? Maybe it is our definition of "generosity." They are asking "What shall we give them," when they are deciding on their chosen carol and they were the savours to the Prothero's fire and there is no mean spirited talk about any of the adults. That would be a generosity of spirit isn't it? What do y'all think?

parman
December 4, 2001 - 06:05 pm
Isn't it a pity we don't find more of that among the adult populations? Oh, sure, kids CAN be mean - and often are .... and yet, the pure spirit of goodness is exemplified in our children a lot more than in their elders. It certainly is not the children who bring the world to its knees with terror. And if we listen carefully to their voices - to what they are saying - and HOW they are saying it - we probably would come away chastened, but wiser - and far more tolerant than we are today.

During the aftermath of Sept. 11 - at sporting events all over the country, but especially in New York, we had dozens and dozens of singers regaling us with the national anthem, and God Bless America and America The Beautiful. And the voices were magnificent - and the fans were transfixed - and one's heart beat faster, faster, faster, and stronger, until often you thought your chest might burst with pride.

But not one of those adult singers came anywhere near eliciting the emotions that I felt when watching and hearing The Boys Chorus of Harlem doing the same songs. The shining smiles on shining faces ... the dancing eyes as they watched their conductor, and the pure, angelic emotion written on those faces as their mouths opened wide, yet never lost the smiles, even when reaching for what on occasion seemed like the impossible-to-reach high notes.

The purity of the children. The unspoiled innocence that triumphed over tragedy while the flags crackled in the evening breezes. And the remarkable reaction of the tens of thousands massed in the stadium -- teary eyes, chests puffed with pride, the steel inside the police and firefighters and construction workers ... the memory of fallen comrades etched on the chiseled faces and the athletes themselves, struggling for control, knowing that cameras were trained on them.

The pride in being an American on those occasions displaced the sadness - for a few hours, at least. And one came away from it thrilled with the spectacle, and the game itself, and above all, the children ..... oh, the children. Oh, yes - Dylan got it right. Too right!

Ol Imp
December 4, 2001 - 08:55 pm
Holding a stone in his hand - to the black hulk of the house - animals lurked in the cubbyhole - -- sounds like a risk adventure to sing the carols -

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 5, 2001 - 12:10 pm
parman I've been pondering your thoughts - "The purity of the children. The unspoiled innocence..." - "The shining smiles on shining faces ... the dancing eyes...the pure, angelic emotion written on those faces as their mouths opened wide, yet never lost the smiles, even when reaching for what on occasion seemed like the impossible-to-reach high notes." Yes, I agree stories about children or those with a child's voice seem to have a simple heartfelt magic - this thought prompts me to wonder what it is that stories with or about children fill in our hearts - and then last evening I watched on PBS "War Letters."

There were many poignent letters from soldiers at the front in every war since the Revolutionary war but the one that caught my attention in light of your post parman was from a WW2 soldier. The snow and more snow was his theme - He remembered the snow from his childhood - when sleigh rides with belly whopers down the hill with his friends filled his day - He remembered drudging through the evening snow to the warmth of his home when his feet where finally cold. And than in that horrible winter of 1945 fighting in the snow without enough food or sleep, fellow soldiers dying all around him and no place to go when his feet where cold was a sharp contrast to his childhood memory of snow.

Even Dylan Thomas says toward the end of the story - "...the unending smoke-colored snow..." rather than smoke-colored which appears shabby, old, dirty - we prefer fresh new anything - new falling snow, babies, children, our first circus, the first warm days of Summer, the first Robin, a first kiss, the first trip downtown without an adult, the first car, when all the world feels new and pure. As adults our firsts are few and far between so that life takes on a smokey color, an unending smoke color, and we yearn for the purity, the simplicity, the innocence of beginnings, of firsts.

I got that Ol Imp - the holding the stone - not a snowball but a stone no less - That was a risky adventure in their minds wasn't it.

On the site linked above found the books - ordered and received yesterday Christmas in Wales at the cost of 6.5£ plus 6£ for shipping. There are many writers and poets represented in the book with two pieces from our Dylan - one a letter to Pamela Hansford Johnson and the other a published piece called That Bright White Snowball of Christmas

Interesting the story is a shortened version without as much poetic language as A Child's Christmas in Wales No Mrs. Prothero but a burning pudding with "Bang the gong and call the fire-brigade and the book-loving firemen!", an "ambitious cat," Austn Bessie with her elderberry wine, padding through the streets wondering if people will think their footprints are those of a hippo, writing on Mr. Daniel's lawn, being "snow-bound travellers lost in the north hills" as "great dewlapped dogs with brandy-flasks round their necks, ambled and shambled up to us, baying 'Excelsior'." - and the final paragraph -
We returned home through the desolate poor sea-facing streets where only a few children fumbled with bare red fingers in the thick wheel-rutted snow and cat-called after us, their voices fading away, as we trudged uphill, into the cries of the dock-birds and the hooters of ships out in the white and whirling bay.

parman
December 5, 2001 - 03:10 pm
particularly the reminiscences in the letter of the WWII soldier.

I do find, as I grow older, that I yearn far more than formerly, for the simpler days of childhood -- or, if not simpler, surely more innocent. Even youthful mischief seems so much more charming from the vantage point that added years afford us.

But in the backward looks, I also find a very touching sentimentality, sentimentality that I would have scoffed at years ago. And I find along with it, that I am much quicker to feeling my eyes mist over (why can't I even now admit that what I am talking about are "tears")?

Somehow I get the feeling that the world would be a much more compassionate place - if we elders were calling the shots. But then, I am brought up short by the thought that the ones who DO call the shots include many of advanced ages, such as we. So it is not age alone that brings wisdom -- although I firmly believe that it sure helps.

Anyway, here come the holidays. Chanukah begins Sunday -- Christmas is not far behind - and Kwanzaa (sp?) ( a recent addition to the roster, I believe) comes along, too. So this should bring a brief respite from the turmoil that pervades the news. And let us hope that, this year, the holiday spirit will stay with us a bit longer than usual. We surely need it.

As for Dylan - can you post the pieces you found in the Christmas book? It will beintersting to compare the 2 versions of the Childrens' piece.

FaithP
December 5, 2001 - 05:16 pm
Memory of first times ! The first time I walked to school alone. The first time I rode a bicycle alone. The first time I played a solo violin piece at school. Graduating from the Eighth grade...what a big deal that was in my day. Of course these go on for awhile and then adulthood takes over and events that occur for the first time lose the gloss and shimmer of the events in childhood. I remember very distinctly the first time I went on a Merry go Round. And it is a big memory and includes leaving the eternal snow behind and arriving in a town full of dirt and sand and concrete to walk on and dig in. I was having a third birthday. There was a carnival and a Merry go Round. I rode a White Pony with Red Reines. When we were ready to go back to Tahoe I made everyone wait while I filled a bread wrapper with dirt from an aunts garden and put it in a brown bag very carefully. At Tahoe I was so proud and important to be showning my mother such a wonderful thing as dirt since she was stuck here in the eternal snow.. This story was one of my Grandparents favorite's to tell at family gatherings. I suppose it is hard to imagine but at that time I believed Tahoe never had anything but snow and Dirt was something wonderful and exotic. Faith

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 5, 2001 - 10:23 pm
Ok we are going to do this as a series - how about that for a decission maker - it it a lot of typing to do all at one time - after I do get it typed over a period of a few nights I can go back and copy the post and see if Pat can set it up as an accompanying page to click on in the heading.
That bright white Snowball of Christmas

Now out of that bright white snowball of Christmas gone comes the stocking, the stocking of stockings, that hung at the foot of the bed with the arm of a golliwog dangling over the top and small bells ringing in the toes. There was a company, gallant and scarlet but never nice to taste thought I always tried when very young, of belted and busbied and musketed lead soldiers so soon to lose their heads and legs in the wars on the kitchen table after the tea-things, the mince-pies, and the cakes that I helped to make by stoning the raisons and eating them, had been cleared away; and a bag of moist and many-coloured jelly-babies and a folded flag and a false nose and a tram-conductor's cap and a machine that punched tickets and rang a bell; never a catapult; once, by a mistake that no one could explain, a little hatchet; and a rubber buffalo, or it may have been a horse, with a yellow head and haphazard legs; and a celluloid duck that made, when you pressed it, a most unduck-like noise, a mewing moo that an ambitious cat might make who wishes to be a cow; and a painting-book in which I could make the grass, the trees, the sea, and the animals any colour I pleased: and still the dazzling sky-blue sheep are grazing in the red field under a flight of rainbow-beaked and pea-green birds.

Christmas mourning was always over before you could say Jack Frost. And look! suddenly the pudding was burning! Bang the gong and call the fire-brigade and the book-loving firemen! Someone found the silver threepenny-bit with a currant on it; and the someone was always Uncle Arnold. The motto in my cracker read:

Let's all have fun this Christmas Day
Let's play and sing and shout hooray!
and the grown-ups turned their eyes towards the ceiling, and Aunt Bessie, who had already been frightened, twice, by a clockwork mouse, whimpered at the sideboard and had some elderberry wine. And someone put a glass bowl full of nuts on the littered table, and my uncle said, as he said once every year: 'I've got a shoe-nut here. Fetch me a shoe-horn to open it, boy.'

And dinner was ended.

to be continued...

FaithP
December 6, 2001 - 10:14 am
Thank you Barbara. I was so impressed reading Thomas again. Then I got laughing. When I write and run a grammer check in Word I ignore a lot of it.I copied a paragraph from A Childs Christmas and put in in word then ran a grammer check. The total paragraph had a green line under it. The yellow box said, if I wanted to write a list read the help menu how to set up lists, bullets etc. Here is what they were refering too:

Quote"Years and years ago, when I was a boy, when there were wolves in Wales, and birds the color of red-flannel petticoats whisked past the harp-shaped hills, when we sang and wallowed all night and day in caves that smelt like Sunday afternoons in damp front farmhouse parlors, and we chased, with the jawbones of deacons, the English and the bears, before the motor car, before the wheel, before the duchess-faced horse, when we rode the daft and happy hills bareback, it snowed and it snowed. But here a small boy says: "It snowed last year, too. I made a snowman and my brother knocked it down and I knocked my brother down and then we had tea."

The last sentence -a small boy etc- the yellow box said "long sentence you may want to simplify." HOO HOO I knew I was right not to OBEY that stupid grammer checker. (a would be writer.) fp

parman
December 6, 2001 - 04:10 pm
Yu see- I write for a living -- or rather, have written for a living -or, continue to write for a living, whatever. Only not so often. I write not fiction or even belles lettres, but promotional material -- ads, press releases, new business presentations, an occasional corporate film script - whatever. Anyway, I get so many of the wavy green underlines - mostly due to the "creative" punctuation that I have taken as my privilege all these years, that I finally had to turn the thing off. I find the red underlines handy, not because I'm a lousy speller (actually I'm a purrfect sppelr) but because my fingers fly a bit faster than I really should let them (but they have minds of their own - 10 little minds furiously at work trying to bring me down) So I look forward to seeing the red lines. Not the red lines in my eyes, on the occasional rough morning - but the little ones that the computer Gods bring us. Lovely gifts, those reds. Not at all like the nasty green ones. But then, it isn't easy being green. (Sorry - couldn't resist that.)

See... you're not alone.

FaithP
December 6, 2001 - 05:23 pm
Parman I turned it off too, and just use the speller to catch my typos as I am purfect spller too. It was fun doing that. Especially to see the yellow message that said " you may want to make a list and use the help menu to learn how to do a bullit etc..." I laughed out loud. fp

parman
December 6, 2001 - 07:47 pm
You mentioned taking home a bag of dirt to a snowy wilderness. I started thinking about it and decided to write a short piece on "dirt." It's been fermenting in my head for a day or so - and this weekend, I'm going back to my favorite form of exercise. That is to attack a blank piece of paper with a typewriter (or, these days, a computer.) We'll see what comes out. It's always a surprise to scroll back and say: "Did I do that?"

Ol Imp
December 6, 2001 - 09:44 pm
A neighborhood in San Diego replete with grass lawns 55 years ago - One house had nothing but dirt in the front yard and the back yard - good buddy of mine - So my buddy comes up with the remark - "Hey! I'm busy, don't bother me - I've got to cut my front dirt".

Ol Imp
December 6, 2001 - 09:51 pm
Golly I forgot about that - we melted our own lead on the stove and poured our own lead soldiers into molds - built our own armies.

Ol Imp
December 6, 2001 - 09:56 pm
Tracing my genealogical lines back - Hey! I have a Thomas back there - near as I can figure, my Thomas was born on the Island of Pico in the Azores - No Wales connection proven yet.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 6, 2001 - 11:03 pm
Yes, I remember my cousin melting lead and pouring his own lead soldiers -

I think computers are programed to only aid the business writer - what do y'all think - no soul of an artist in "word."

The big fad around here last year was to own a 'dirt shirt' - The label actually said "dirt shirt" - these are t-shirts dyed, I'd call it stained, in Texas dirt - from the color, a sort of burnt sienna, redish brown, the dirt had to have come from West Texas since East Texas the dirt is what we call Black bottom or Gumbo - good for pecans and cotton. In additon the shirts are silkscreened with a Texas symbol or popular Texas sayings.

Our local drigstore has collected dirt from all over the world. The collection is in viles labled and brought in by customers after their travels.

Just a bit from Dylan's story - dentist this afternoon and it is me an asprin and an ice pack tonight.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 6, 2001 - 11:21 pm
continuation of:
That bright white Snowball of Christmas

And I remember that on the afternoon of Christmas Day, when the others sat around the fire and told each other that this was nothing, no, nothing, to the great snowbound and turkey-proud yule-log-crackling holly-berry-bedizined and kissing-under-the-mistletoe Christmas when they were children, I would go out, school-capped and gloved and mufflered, with my bright new boots squeaking, into the white world on to the seaward hill, to call on Jim and Dan and Jack and to walk with them throught the silent snowscape of our town.

We went padding throught the streets, leaving huge deep footprints in the snow, on the hidden pavements.

'I bet people'll think there's been hippoes.'
'What would you do if you saw a hippo coming down Terrace Road?'
'I'd go like this, bang! I'd throw him over the railings and roll him down the hill and then I'd tickle him under the ear and he'd wag his tail..."
'What would you do if you saw two hippoes...?'
Iron-flanked and bellowing he-hippoes clanked and blundered and battered through the scudding snow towards us as we passed by Mr. Daniel's house.
'Let's post Mr Daniel a snowball throught his letter-box.'
'Let's write things in the snow.'
'Let's write "Mr Daniel looks like a spaniel" all over his lawn.'
'Look,' Jack said, 'I'm eating a snow-pie.'
'What's it taste like?'
'Like snow-pie,' Jack said.
Or we walked on the white shore.

YiLi Lin
December 7, 2001 - 12:47 pm
wow barbara, i have a memory of my brother melting lead- though he used to make sinkers for fishing- see people are never really very far apart- hmm is that six degrees of separation?

just returned from Albany, New York. I enjoy the ride on the Taconic Parkway- the mountains are amazing- and once I made that trip with ice crystals bending the trees over the road- treacherous but beautiful, but today the colors were rather drab and the few spots where they've widened the road, i fear they might have sacrificed a few white birch and pine- these usually give a lift to even a winter scape.

anyway not to dampen the holiday spirit here, i must share that I observed a very minimal sense of festivity in the area where I was. the shopping malls were minimially not not at all decorated, and very few shoppers about the time of evening I took a quick jaunt through Crossgates Mall- but...soooooo many people in the restaurants, standing room only! So perhaps people are gathering together using food and its rituals to share love and hope this year- and the restaurants did have a warm and cozy holiday feel.

but tomorrow they get snow! and that might be just what the folk were waiting for.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 8, 2001 - 02:28 pm
It snowed and snowed - sounds like the folks in up-state New York look forward to their snow in order to initiate a bit of holiday cheer. I keep wondering if parents today would even allow their children to melt lead on their stoves to make either lead soldiers or as YiLi Lin your brother made fish sinkers.

It is as cold as all get out today and I am cacooned here in sweats with big heavy hiking sox under my fleesy warm slippers - for now it is hot coffee - before this evening is over it may be a glass of wine - oh you have no idea how I hate it when it is cold - I want to curl up in my PJs all day - now if I am out hiking the cold is great and I can even enjoy a bit of snow if I am not living in it everyday - but this damp cold just gets into my bones and then I have the most awful time of getting anything done around here.

OK there is a bit of Kahula on the shelf - I am going right now and adding it to this coffee - I raise my cup to y'all - good cheer

And then to conclude Dylan's That bright white Snowball of Christmas Hope there are not too many typing mistakes - of course y'all know to blame it on the Kahula.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 8, 2001 - 02:51 pm
In conclusion: the last sentence was "Or we walked on the white shore."
That bright white Snowball of Christmas

'Can the fishes see it's snowing?'
'They think it is the sky falling down.'
The silent one-clouded heavens drifted on to the sea.
'All the old dogs have gone.'
Dogs of a hundred mingled makes yapped in the summer at the sea-rim and yelped at the trespassing mountains of the waves.
'I bet St. Bernards would like it now.'
And we were snowblind travellers lost on the north hills, and the great dewlapped dogs, with brandy-flasks round their necks, ambled and shambled up to us, baying 'Excelsior'.

We returned home through the desolate poor sea-facing streets where only a few children fumbled with bare red fingers in the thick wheel-rutted snow and cat-called after us, their voices fading away, as we trudged uphill, into the cries of the dock-birds and the hooters of ships out in the white and whirling bay.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 8, 2001 - 03:50 pm
Dylan left school in 1931 and embarked on his most productive and important writing. He departed for London at the end of 1934. In the spring of 1933 his 'And death shall have no dominion' first appeared in a London magazine. In August of 1933 his father discovered he had cancer of the mouth. With treatment he lived another 20 years but Dylan was facinated with death and prefered to deny the existance of illness. His Aunt Ann had died from Cancer only months before.

His first real girl friend was the young poet Pamela Hansford Johnson. Upon reading his poem 'That sanity be kept I sit at open window' in the Sunday Referee she wrote to Dylan. They didn't meet till February 1934, and then only briefly. He termed their letters as, 'the dazzling correspondence of two diverse but well attuned imaginations'.

They thought of marriage till she realized how great would be the risks and cost to herself. She loved the young poet who wrote her funny, affectionate letters, which helped her own writting, shared with her his ambitions and ideals, but was afraid of his extremes, his mood swings, his need for drink and his sexual adveturousness.

Where as Dylan observed and invented himself in his letters to Pamela. He was writing to someone outside of Wales, someone whom he had never met, who admired him and his work. His appearance, ambitions, family, Swansea, Wales - all could be edited, dreamatized, alchemized. He was quick to tell her he was better than his surroundings, that they were stifling him and that he had to make his escape.
A Festive Letter to Pamela Hansford Johnson

5 Cwmdonkin Drive,
Uplands,
Swansea.


December 25th 1933

Another Afterthought: Christmas Day
Thank you for the cigarettes. The Christmas dinner over, and the memories of it — so far at least — more in the mouth than in the belly. I have been sprawling in an armchair, (yes we posses one), smoking the first of your so very kind and unexpected presents. While the family is collected around the wireless, listening to the voice of His Majesty, let me write a note to you to tell you how glad I was to read your last letter and horrified to think that you thought Robert Graves necessarily indicated the return of John Player... And my stlye this gray December evening ( a reference to robins will appear now any moment) is as heavy as the brandied pudding now resting in revolt, deep in the chambers of my intenstines, against too much four-and-sixpenny port and vegetables.

Child: Mother, how many pips in a tangerine?
Mother: Shut up, you little bastard.
My gifts are arrayed in front of me: a startlingly yellow tie and a peculiar pair of string gloves from my sister; a cigarette case from my brother-in-law; ten cigars from my father; 50 cigarettes from a young woman in Battersea; a knitted thing from the manageress of the hotel near my Little Theatre; the complet Blake from another uncle; Mrs Munroe's 1923-1933 Anthology from a friend who writes communism; two James Joyce pamphlets from myself; while ouside hangs a neat, but tight, black hat from my mother, who has despaired for some time of the curves and angles of a decrepit trilby. That is all; and though your gift will vanish far more quickly than some of the others, it will last far longer in my memory than any of them...Goodby until tomorrow, when I hope that the heavy, academic idioms of this note will leave me lucid enough to write more and at more considerable length. The wireless is continually re-iterating the fact that Christmas is here, but Christmas, for me, is nearly over. How many more Christmases will these old eyes be blessed to see approach and vanish? Who knows: one far-off day I may gather my children (though a resolution denies it) around my spavined knee, tickle their chops, and tell them of the miracle of Christ and the devastating effect of too many nuts upon a young stomach.

He sent her poems by Rober Graves; she sent him Player's cigarettes.

Ol Imp
December 8, 2001 - 08:11 pm
I can remember funny affection - I felt very close to a young woman when I was about 20 - I couldn't say how close I felt - So I wrote her my own poetic masterpieces typed neatly in red on toilet paper - We never had a sexual relationship but I felt a great passion for her and I could not be straight about it - so , the screwy poetry in red on toilet paper.

I had "acute perspirational lies" everytime I was near her.

Malryn (Mal)
December 9, 2001 - 07:30 am
Happy Chanukah!

parman
December 9, 2001 - 10:37 am
I have laid in a big supply a potatoes for grating - and bandaids for bleeding knuckles. Now starts the big argument -- what do you prefer with potato latkes ... applesauce or sour cream?

I solve it this way. I take double the normal quantity on my plate - and use both.

I have been reading the most godawful concoctions that "creative" cooks have been coming up with - just for the sake of screwing up a perfectly wonderful treat.

Sweet potato latkes? Not past MY lips!

Sesame potato latkes? Save the sesame seeds - plant them in the spring and maybe you'll grow a sesame tree - but keep them away from my fry pan.

Latkes from purple potatoes? Come near me with one of those things and I'll give you something purple to remember.

Diet latkes baked in the oven, with no oil? Hey, I thought OIL was the whole idea.

Latkes made from oat bran? What do I look like, a horse? Don't answer that question.

Martha Stewart's Latkes, made with fava beans and polenta? Sure - you make them and I'll be right over. Just take a deep breath...... and hold it!

Mini-latkes served with a basil pesto on the side and garnished with a menorah carved from a pumpkin? Come a little closer, I want to smack you!

Latkes Wellington - topped with chicken liver pate, enfolded in a walnut crust? Listen, bring that garbage pail a little closer, will you please?

Latkes made from UNPEELED potatoes? If you're too lazy to peel 'em, you're also too lazy to eat 'em Get thee to McDonalds!

Pure potato latkes, with just a little knuckle blood - fried in your grandma's black castiron skillet? AHA! - real latkes at last. Pass the platter - and make another 4 dozen!

Have a happy one, everybody -- and especially you, Dylan.

YiLi Lin
December 9, 2001 - 11:00 am
Parman your posts are wonderful-

Hmm and do the fish see the snow falling- I'd like to think so- and they see stars and sunrise and sunset and rather than wonder if the sky is falling or burning- think absolutely nothing at all- just experience it.

oooh those icey knuckles, I remember never liking the cold or even the snow for that matter probably because the outerwear available was never really warm enough and certainly not waterproof. I remember those crusty ice chunks on mittens or frozen around the edge of your hat- actually burning your skin- and the big kids pummeling us tykes with snowballs and in the rules of the street making the younger kids pull the big kids UP the hill on sleighs or push them on makeshift cardboard and only if we were appropriate slaves could be get a ride down by the end of the day. But there was aperk, when the real snow fell, you were allowed out again in the evening after supper- a bid deal on my block- and most of the big kids were inside doing homework or whatever and our small crew would ride up and down the hill vowing we'd never be as mean as the other kids when we grew up. and we weren't- not sure if we developed spiritually or by the time we grew up sleighriding was passe and salt trucks ruined the small hill by within hours. by the time my children were ready for snow we had to go find a park or hill at the side of a highway- even going over to grandma's block with a hill did not work- plows, salt, and much more traffic.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 9, 2001 - 03:00 pm
Thanks Malryn for the great link celebrating the final days of Hanukkah.

Parman the heading change is for you with all our hearts -

Found this fun site that teaches us How to play Spin the Dreidel

Now I am wondering where the concept of all those coins that many of us received in our Christmas stocking originated and also we always had potatoe pancakes with homemade apple sauce during Advent. Hmmmmm The rational was Advent was meatless except for Sunday and how to have an interesting night meal without another version of eggs.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 9, 2001 - 03:04 pm
Malryn I just loved the site you found and in addition found this one that has some good explanition of the history of Hanukkah traditions. each Icon brings you to a page that explains each Hanukkah tradition.

All day I've had the tune "Sunrise - Sunset" going on in my head - I ought to break down and rent the movie. I even have some potatoes that I think I will join you tonight parman and make some Latkes - How does your recipe differ from the one we have temporarily put in the heading?

Malryn (Mal)
December 9, 2001 - 06:11 pm
Thanks, Barb. The Chanukah site to which I linked is a page I researched, built and uploaded for the current Holiday Issue of Sonata. If you click the right arrow at the bottom of the page, it will take you to stories about Chanukah and Chanukah recipes, including one for latkes that I feel certain Parman would like.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 9, 2001 - 06:28 pm
Whoops posting at the same time Malryn - yes it was a really great site - loved the graphics as well.

Haha I love this - a stoke for womanhood - motherhood - haha grandmotherhood with scraped knuckles - and a mother who tried to have a tree in the house, yes Ol Imp - a mother who made a tree from a the frame of an umbrella - for most of us, the real makers of holidays who carry on the traditions unto a culture -
Siân James
Mother Christmas
At Christmas there was a special concert when all the chapel children, even those from down Mill Bank who'd only started coming the Sunday School at the beginning of December, had a present from the Christmas tree.

In spite of the war, we had good presents, but our Father Christmas was always a hopeless failure, a mumbling old man with a slipping beard, that no one, not even the babies in Class 1, believed in.

Jenny Williams changed all that. One year, she came on in a little read cloak and bonnet. 'I'm Mother Christmas,' she said. 'My old man's been called up. Yes, he's gone from under my feet. Good job, too. He was always an old nuisance. And mean. Ooo. He used to spend more on those direty old reindeers than he did on me. Did you think he'd brought you those presents last year? No, it was the Ladies Sewing Circle. All he ever did was show off in his red suit. And that beard. I wasn't real. No. Did you think it was real? Of course you didn't.'

Mother Christmas was a huge success.

parman
December 9, 2001 - 09:14 pm
Did anyone else see it? Ot was the most wonderful fable -- drawing on the old Irish legend of the Selkie ... the seal that comes ashore, sheds its skin and becomes human - but most reclaim the skin and return to the sea.

Beautiful written by John Gray - andwonderfully acted by a marvelous cast of Irish actors - plus Scott Glenn, who was wonderful

It was poignant, warmly humorous, tragic, and in the end, triumphant and bittersweet at the same time. I'd be very intersted in any reactions.

By the way - I showed some of the Christman-Chanukah posts here to a few friends and relatives today - and they are absolutely floored over the talent they see demonstrated here. This is a most wonderful group of people, and I am so glad the site was recommended to me. It has my mind working again, and I love it. Thanks, all. And oh, yes - my latkes were a big hit - as usual. One of my granddaughters had the temerity to even question whether mine were even better than her great-grandmothers (my "nana"). If she was still with us, she'd have rapped the kid on the knuckles with her wooden spoon - the one she always used to drop spoonfuls of the potato mixture into the pan.

Oh well - 7 nights to go - anbd then we can start looking forward to Christmas Dinner at my daughter's. Aint it wonderful to get two shots at holiday fun?

Malryn (Mal)
December 9, 2001 - 09:29 pm
The Bestest Christmas
m. m. f.



It was a time of darkness and poverty in the small New England city where Dot White and her three children lived. The night before Christmas they walked slowly up Main Street. There were Dot and Molly, her oldest, Davie, her son, and little Susie. She was three.



“Mama, I’m cold.”

Little Sue stopped and shivered. Her face crinkled up. She looked as if she wanted to cry.



“Oh, Susie, here. I’ll carry you for a while. Climb up here. Ooo, look at that window.”

Dot picked up her baby and walked with her to the store. The four of them stood and looked at the beautiful Christmas tree in McCartney’s Dry Goods Shop window. Glowing lights shone down on cotton batting snow. Gaily wrapped presents were underneath the tree. A cardboard fireplace stood at one side. Three red stockings with white toes and heels, jam packed with toys, hung from the mantel.

“Oh, Mama, it’s so beautiful,” Molly said. “I wish we could have a Christmas tree like that. We haven't had a nice one like that since Daddy went away.”

“I want Santa to bring me a red fire truck,” Davie said.



“I want a green lollipop!”



They all laughed at Sue when she said this. She stuck her mittened thumb in her mouth and grinned around it. Dot hugged her tight.

“It’s not much farther, Children.”

“Where are we going? My feet are cold, Mama.”



“Me, too.”

“And me!” Susie squealed.



They laughed again, and kept on walking until they reached a little store. There were trees propped against the wall outside. A man in a heavy black winter coat and knitted hat stood at the door stamping his feet.



“There you are, Dot. I’ve been waiting for you. Good thing you came. I was just getting ready to go home. It’s too cold to hang around here.”

“Hello, Mike,” Dot said in a cheerful voice. “Merry Christmas to you and yours!



“Merry Christmas, Dot and you children. Come on in. I’ve got something for you.”



They walked in the store and saw a tiny little black pot belly stove in the back. The three children ran to it. “There, Children. You get nice and warm before we walk home, but, for goodness sake, don’t touch that red hot stove!”



Dot turned around and talked for a minute with Mike, the Christmas tree man. “I’ve only got thirty-five cents, Mike. Is there anything I can buy with that?”



“Sure there is, Dot. For you and the kids the best is none too good. I’ve been saving this balsam for you. Looky here.”



He reached down and picked up a little tree. “Oh, that’s beautiful,” Dot cried. “Look, kids, we’ve got ourselves a Christmas tree!”

Molly and Davie and Susie ran over and stood in front of Mike and the tree. They oooed and ahed and clapped their hands. Dot pulled her change purse out of her pocket, reached in for some coins, and held them out to Mike.



“No, no, Dot. That’s all right. It’s Christmas. Go home and put some ornaments on. Let the children have their fun.”

“Oh, thank you, Mike, thank you. Merry Christmas to you! You’ve made this a wonderful one.”

She picked up the tree and held out her hand, “Come on, Susie, hold my hand. Molly, you hold Davie’s. We’re going home now and put those popcorn and cranberry ropes we made on this wonderful Christmas tree.”

That’s exactly what they did. They wound the ropes round and round the little tree. When they were finished it looked like fairyland. Dot made hot tea with cloves and a little bit of sugar in it. They sat around the Christmas tree and drank tea and sang carols until almost nine.



“Bedtime, Children. It’s time to hang your stockings up on the shelf over the kitchen stove.”



“Mama, my stocking has a hole in it. Santa won’t leave me anything ‘cause my present would fall out. Look. My big toe is sticking right out.” Davie held up his foot. He looked very worried.

“Here, I’ll fix it,” Dot said. She pulled a safety pin out of her pocket and pinned up the hole. “There, that will do. After Santa comes and you get your present in the morning, I’ll sew up that hole.” Davie grinned and hugged his mother.



She tucked her three children all snug in the big double bed in the next room and pulled quilts up around them. “Goodnight now, Children. Sleep tight and warm. Santa is coming, and if you’re awake, he’ll fly right by in that sleigh of his.”

Early in the morning, Susie was the first to get up. She stood in the kitchen doorway and looked at the Christmas tree standing by the door. Then she looked up at the shelf over the stove. The three stockings that hung limply over it the night before were full of mysterious things.

“Quick, quick!” She ran to the other room where her brother and sister were stirring in the bed. “Santa came! He did! He did! Get out of bed and come here.”



The kitchen door opened and Dot walked in carrying a little brown bag. “Merry, Merry Christmas! My, it’s cold this morning. Come, Children, and eat your breakfast. I have a surprise for you.”



“Presents first, Mama!”



Dot put the bag on the table and took her old blue coat off and hung it on a chair. “Oh, all right,” she laughed. “Come on, you kids. Let’s open all our presents.”



She reached up and took the stockings off the hooks on the shelf over the stove. “Here, this is for Molly and this is for Davie and this for Susie. Merry Christmas, everybody!”



There were a box of crayons and two sheets of paper in Molly’s stocking. She smiled a great big smile. Davie pulled a little red fire truck out of the stocking with a safety pin in it. He plopped down on his knees. “Rrrrm, rrrrm, rrrmm, rrrmmm, here comes the fire truck. Watch out everybody. Get out of the way. Rrrrm, rrrrm, rrrmm.”



“Where’s my present, Mama? I want my present!” Susie's face crinkled up again.



“Here, baby, sit up here in my lap and open your stocking.”



Dot sat down in the chair and picked Susie up and gave her the stocking. Inside there was a great big green lollipop. “Santa didn’t forget! Look, Mama, he gave me a green lollipop!”



Dot kissed the top of Susie’s head. “Breakfast time, Children.”



She spooned oatmeal into three yellow bowls and set them on the table. The children sat down with their presents in front of them and began to eat. When they were done, their mother looked at them. “Now, I have a big surprise for you.”



“What is it, Mama?”

“What is it?”



“Yes, what, Mama, what?”

Dot reached in the little brown bag and pulled out three oranges. She handed one to Molly and one to Davie and one to Susie. “Sunshine, that’s what it is!”



The children laughed and giggled as they peeled their oranges. All of a sudden Molly stopped and said, “Mama, you didn’t get a present. Santa didn’t bring anything for you.”



“Yes, he did,” Dot laughed. “He gave me the three of you!”



The children smiled and gave pieces of orange to their mother. Then they all sang very loud, “Deck the halls with boughs of holly. Fa la la la la. La la. La la.”



Susie smiled at her mother and her brother and sister and opened her mouth and said, “You know what?”

“No, what?”

“This is the bestest Christmas in the whole wide world.”



It was.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 10, 2001 - 01:33 am
Wow Malryn - now where or what book or who wrote this - sounds real American doesn't it - 1930s or early 40s.

Oh parman I missed Hallmark - I even looked up the TV schedule but just didn't see it - I love that old Ballad - Francis James Child collected that one in 1864 on the Shetlands. The Great Silkie of Sule Skerry sung also on the Orkney's and the Hebrides. God what a mornful tune - I play the four string mountain dulcimer and this one is played in the old Aeolian mode. Shoot I wished I hadn't missed production.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 10, 2001 - 01:44 am
Well here is the skinny on Pamela -
Fond of the man who jests at his scars, if you like;
but never believe he is being on the level with you.
Pamela Hansford Johnson.

Pamela Hansford Johnson, Lady Snow (1912-1981) English Writer, poet and literary critic. Her works include This Bed Thy Centre 1935, which was judged shocking, Too Dear for My Possessing 1940, The Unspeakable Skipton 1959, based on the life of Frederick Rolfe, An Error of Judgement 1962, The hatter of Cork Street 1965, [In Cork Street, next to the hatters, is the bookshop run by Cosmo Hines and his once notorious wife, the poet, Dorothy Merlin.] . Her poetry was published under the pseudonym Michael Connelly. Pamela Hansford Johnson married, Lord Charles Percy Snow; Baron Snow of Leicester, b.1905-80, English author and physicist.

Lord Charles Percy Snow, at age 25 a fellow at Christ's College, had an active, varied career, including several important positions in the British government. He served as technical director of the ministry of labor from 1940 to 1944; as civil service commissioner from 1945 to 1960; and as parliamentary secretary to the minister of technology from 1964 to 1966.

As both a literary man and a scientist, Snow was well equipped to write about science and literature;The Two Cultures and the Scientific Revolution, 1959. Snow was noted for his series of 11 related novels known collectively as Strangers and Brothers. The series traces the career of Lewis Eliot from his boyhood in a provincial town, through law school and years as a fellow at Cambridge, to an important government position; Eliot's career parallels that of Snow himself. Although the series has been read as a study of power, or as an analysis of the relationship between science and the community, it is primarily a perceptive and moving delineation of changes in English life during the 20th century.

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 10, 2001 - 02:22 am
Enough copying stories from the copy of "Christmas in Wales" - it was interesting though to see this story in an earlier version - certainly allowed me to see this stuff just doesn't come pouring out on paper even for Dylan Thomas without some work.

I must say after y'alls discussion about computer correcting English followed by my typing out Dylan's story and letter it was easy to tell this man wrote everything out in long hand. I have typed several chapters from another author's book to e-mail to a few participants in an earlier discussion because their book had not arrived yet - this is a delightful and profound current author - but short, short sentences and the easy flow of typing in comparison to copying Dylan Thomas. This makes me think he may have developed that book on his computer. I learn a lot by typing out an author's work -

I loved this bit in the our A Child's Christmas in Wales
...a boy the spit of myself, with a pink-tipped cigarette and the violet past of a black eye, cocky as a bullfinch, leering all to himself...with a violet wink, put his whistle to his lips and blew so stridently, so high, so exquisitely loud...
Now if that isn't an author's characterization of himself I just do not know what could be more perfect. What do y'all think? How about, could'ya write a characterization of yourself as the discription of another coming down the raod?

Malryn (Mal)
December 10, 2001 - 05:51 am
Barbara, I wrote The Bestest Christmas a few years ago. It's about my mother, brother and sisters and is appearing in Sonata right now.

The Bestest Christmas

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 10, 2001 - 10:39 am
Yes, Yes of course - while reading it I thought it rang a bell but could not put my finger on why it sounded familiar. A slice of life done very well - Marlyn do you have any of your work published in print? And I bet you could characterize yourself couldn't you.

I've been pulling that bit apart - I don't spit at the world - but then I do not know how to describe how I announce myself - because I see the word spit not only saying "the spit'in image' but also as in poetry when one word does the duty of two it gives and impression of a young man spitting and announcing himself on the scene as something that spits with force and bravado of someone spitting between his teeth.

I've broken the bit up into parts
  • a boy
  • the spit of myself,
  • with a pink-tipped cigarette
  • and the violet past of a black eye,
  • cocky as a bullfinch,
  • leering all to himself.
  • with a violet wink,
  • put his whistle to his lips
  • and blew
  • so stridently, - so high, - so exquisitely loud,
  • YiLi Lin
    December 10, 2001 - 11:45 am
    "There were the Useful Presents: engulfing mufflers of the old coach days, and mittens made for giant sloths; zebra scarfs of a substance like silky gum that could be tug-o'-warred down to the galoshes; blinding tam-o'-shanters like patchwork tea cozies and bunny-suited busbies and balaclavas for victims of head-shrinking tribes; from aunts who always wore wool next to the skin ...

    my mother was an amazing seamstress, useful presents could even be a winter coat made from her own clothes. One year i particular I remember a pleated skirt in a blackwatch fabric with a matching sash and tam. She expected me to wear the outfit to my first school dance! no other girl had home made clothes, and certainly did not wear green plaid, among the kids I knew the height of fashion was found at Alexander's on Fordham Road- but I wore the outfit with a white ruffle blouse- knee socks and my school shoes- and can you believe it was a hit!. In the sea of tight black skirts on children way too young for black, 'assisted' bras, french twists and pointed toe (ouch) shoes, mine was an outfit unique. The clothes were elevated to a status of 'theme' and with pigyails flying the chaperones and I made jigs the evening dance themes- which was a hidden plus for me because I did not know how to dance anything anyway- and no one else could do a jig either. French twists fell into tangles of shellac, shoes came off and the guys even jigged to the "mashed potato"- but I also remember my exposed knees red, cold and chapped from the long walk home.

    FaithP
    December 10, 2001 - 12:15 pm
    Barb what you did with the spitten image sentence, well that is just what the computer told me to do with long sentence of Dylan's I ran through grammer check, it said in the yellow ballon...You may want to try uing List with bullits. See the Help menu.fp

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    December 10, 2001 - 02:25 pm
    Hahaha and how easily as young teenagers we believe our parent are only there to do us in - hit of the party hay. But you, the courage to take what you were sure was going to be an embarrassing ordeal and wear the out-fit without sneaking bits and pieces off before you got to the dance. The unique prevailed...!

    OK FaithP I am not sure what you are suggesting - you see I have a Mac and it does not automatically show me the errors of my ways. I know my daughter has a PC and if I e-mail from her house all errors are underlined in a red squiggly line. What I do like and is fun by hitting a certain icon, I do not remember which one, it gives you the reading grade level you have written. Come to think of it I think you can even do a grammar check and I bet that is what you are talking about.

    Now for me unfortunately or maybe listening to you and parman share, the only way I have any clue if I have mis-spelled or my many mis-types is to take my post and paste it in 'word' then hit the spell check. The problem for me is that 'word' uses a different font then seniornet and so when I paste the whole thing back, I have to change every apostrophe or any links or color changes or quotes will not show. And my grammer check in 'word' was never down-laoded.

    The sentence above broken up gave me a clue to how he constructed the idea -

    His violet past - hmmm I do not think I have a violet past nor the black eye to commemorate it. Hmmm maybe the reverse a blackened past but it is this violet thing that just doesn't fit me.

    The two features I see him referring is, his eyes, that not only show a past but wink, as if to say the violet past and his black eye is only a cover that helps create a visible picture of his cocky leer.

    The other part of his face he speaks about are his lips that not only hold the cigarette but blow. To me that is saying his breath, his soul is going out, alerting the world with a whistle, his song, - a whistle in a laud, exquisite, strident way as he hits the highth of his ability to whistle his song.

    I not only look at that bit of discriptive writing in awe but, it made me think if I saw and could describe a duplicate of me in a similar construction, what would I say. So far rather than "the spit of myself" I would say "the stride of myself" and I am still working on a color that would describe my past. Hmmm maybe a color that describes my future hmmm.

    Dylan Thomas says he takes his world in, in-hales through a pink-tipped - piece of sugar, that imitates a burning light, a pink- tipped, that to me is saying child-like; imitation of a grown-up habit of inhaling the smoke of lighted burning dried leaves wrapped in paper with the continental aura that surrounding smoking during the early part of the 20th century.

    I do not think I inhale the world as much as I observe the world and so I will ponder further as to how to describe myself.

    And FaithP Darlin' please - clear up for me what it is you are saying because it has gone over my head as we pass, like two ships in the night.

    FaithP
    December 10, 2001 - 03:49 pm
    OK barb me dear. In Word 2000 there is a grammer checker that you can run all the time, or just after you have a completed passage you want to check. After running it it pops up a yellow ballon telling you what the error is. Usually in my own writing it will detect a passive sentence which is fine as I can then change it if I want to.Some times it tells me I have a complicated sentence that needs simplfing.When reading dylan I thought shoot he would wear out a grammer checker if he had one. For fun I put a passage of DT from A childs view of christmas. The total passage had green underline which is how it shows a grammer error.

    The yellw ballon that tells you what your error is said" Try running this sentence as a list. For list with bullits see the help menu"

    I just thought it was very funny to see some of the finest writing in America get greenlined all over by the grammer checker in Word. Everyone I know says it is a life saver for business letters that young people right out of school write. I get a lot of green lines that tell me to simplify my sentence. Or that I have used a passive sentence (usually i do need to change that) in an active passage.

    It comes in handy for the word count, the use of certain words will be counted too and if you have thousands of ands or buts you can go fix it. And another feature is that grade level thingy. I am going to run that just for fun on a passage of Dylans then I will tell you what Word says. heheheh faith

    Nellie Vrolyk
    December 10, 2001 - 04:17 pm
    I'm going to give 'meeting myself coming down the street' a try.

    The tall, heavyset woman comes towards me down the icy street; her red brown coat and blue pants and brown hat reflecting my own. She bends down under the weight of two heavy cloth bags. Her head is down, but when she glances up I catch the glint of glasses that twinkle in the wintry sunlight like my own. She takes small careful steps on the crunchy, icy surface and halts for a moment when she slips and almost loses her balance. When we pass, she looks into my eyes and gives me a smile and a nod, as if to say 'all is right with the world, isn't it?'

    Not as good as Dylan, but I'm not him...I'm me.

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    December 10, 2001 - 04:20 pm
    AHa - no wonder I had no clue - my copy of 'word' in not 2000 but an ancient 1995 would you believe - nary a yellow balloon - also my grammer was never installed. This was back in history, with mucho tapes rather than one CD and installation took forever.

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    December 10, 2001 - 04:22 pm
    Oh WOW Nellie You did it, you did it! Ok I really need to get serious here and try this rather then skirting around the edges.

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    December 10, 2001 - 07:11 pm
    Nellie your discription of yourself was so wonderful that I would want to meet you with your two heavy cloth bags. I would hope by raising your eyes to mine you wouldn't slip on all that ice.

    I tried to describe more of a picture of me and then I realized, what I wrote is really me in my eyes since I have no clue about my body - where it begins or ends - I'm always sporting shade of black and blue as I bump into anything and everything, man made. Walking trails I am just fine. So here goes -

    Out of the trail by the creek would come a woman the stride of myself, with clear eyes behind slipping glasses absorbed in the moving stillness. The shadows magnify the wonder for her clear eye, marveling, pondering all to herself. I wanted to step easily, tip-toe around her and yet stop to eagle eye at her wonderment when suddenly, she with artless candor her face is alive to our glorious ramble. Together, we lift our graying heads to the soaring feathers unroofed to the sky, squinting, we grin as if we had tied ourselves to the wheeling hawk.

    FaithP
    December 10, 2001 - 08:07 pm
    If you can try ladies I can try_ Meeting myself in the morning. I watch her becoming alert under piles of comforters so heavy she pants pushing them aside and she stretches and yawns and grinning and grimicing she exercises her face for she wakes to pain, and every muscle is screeching like rusty door hinges as she swings legs over the edge bed and pushes toes deep into furry slippers waiting like faithful pets beside her bed. Brown hair that refuses to grey is standing on end so she pushes it down with one hand as she fumbles for the huge old comfortable bathrobe and then feels around the desk for her glasses, eyes repaired by the glasses then and seeing it truly is daytime, the bathroom call can't wait, and then folded in the middle each step down the hall toward the kitchen she is able to walk more upright until approaching the automatic coffeepot which is steaming with an aromatic life giving elixer she is finally standing straight up and able to look me in the eye. We greet the morning one more time.

    I invite comments Nellie Barb. You are both so good I feel like I need two sentences. Faith

    Ol Imp
    December 10, 2001 - 08:33 pm
    I see him now - past swimmin against the rip - body surfin - likin to roll & crash til it hurt limb & soul -

    I see him now - past - drinkin ; lovin; scrapin - crashin cars

    I see him now - past - pushin kids into a life - touchin souls with abrasion.

    I see him now - past - body comin apart - loss of heart

    I see him now - scrapin gone - angry bespectaled old tub - screamin inside at an unjust world - reachin down - cold desert morn - pickin up paper -

    Malryn (Mal)
    December 10, 2001 - 09:22 pm
    It's the cocktail hour at the hotel, and she stops at the counter and buys a pack of English Ovals on her way to the lounge before the customers of the afternoon drift in. Bob, the big bouncer, meets her at the door and winks. She knows he always has an eye on her.

    Smiling at the two bartenders and waitresses, she sits down at the small white piano and begins to play and sing. Every twenty minutes, she takes a ten minute break which is usually spent at a table with some travelling salesman who wants to buy her a drink.

    At six, the afternoon gig is finished, and she takes the elevator up to her room to wait for her university boyfriend to come and go with her to Harry's in the Alley delicatessan for dinner. They share a corned beef sandwich, talk about when they'll see each other again, and she goes back to the hotel to change into a low-necked cocktail dress.

    At nine the evening gig begins. The crowd is different. Couples, salesmen, executives from out of town there on business, all there to have a drink and hear her play and sing. The Dane with whom she had a drink in the afternoon is sitting alone at a table. On her break, he beckons to her. She goes over and sits down to discover the charming gentleman of four o'clock is quite, quite drunk. All he wants is for her to go up in his room with him. Smiling, she escapes as quickly as she can and sits down at the safety of the piano where she starts to play and sing.

    At 1 a.m. she is through working and takes the elevator upstairs to go to her room. There's a radio interview at eleven in the morning, hairdresser at two and a date at the studio for an appearance on TV at 7, all fit in between the gigs, a busy day ahead.

    When she returns from the television station, she stops a minute and looks at her publicity picture in the glass case outside the hotel. It never fails to surprise her that she's doing what she does, not a job, really, because it's so much fun.

    That was then.

    Now she gets up at 7:30 in the morning, dresses and goes immediately to the computer. She has to check in with the writers group she leads right away, or they'll begin to wonder where she is. She signs out of SeniorNet, goes to AOL and picks up her mail. Writers Exchange WREX correspondence and letters from writers about her publications must be answered before she does anything else.

    She takes a break now and then to stop in and see what's going on in Books discussions and check the messages posted in WREX. At about eleven, she copies a writing submittal in her email box, goes to her word processor and pastes it in and does whatever editing must be done.

    She copies the story again, and from there goes to her html program and pastes the work on a new page. She goes through the routine of putting the html coding on the page, setting up the background and deciding what she wants for illustration and music. Then she goes to Google and does a long search for exactly the right picture and the music she wants. She goes back and puts those on the page, checks it for errors and goes to her FTP site where she uploads each file one by one. Then she goes and checks the page on Netscape and MSIE. If there are errors, she goes back to the html program, makes corrections and uploads the page again.

    By then she's tired, so she lies down to read and nap. She's up at 4:30 to get ready for dinner in the main house with her family. After dinner she's back at the computer in the one room apartment addition to the main house where she lives to set up more web pages until about 9 p.m. At 9, she goes into her word processor and starts writing a chapter of her new book.

    She writes perhaps 700 words, copies what she's written and goes to AOL to send it to herself. When it comes back the format is different and she can see her mistakes and corrections she wants to make. She goes back to the word processor, makes the corrections and continues to write.

    If she's lucky she finishes the chapter by 12, goes to bed with her black cat, Mitta Baben, reads a few pages of somebody else's book and goes to sleep. The next day is pretty much the same unless she decides to go out to the supermarket. Back home to web pages and writing and answering mail and doing the things an electronic publisher has to do.

    This is the life now of a 73 year old woman, former lounge, radio and TV entertainer and once in a while church soprano and classical music concert musician whom she knows very well.

    Mal

    parman
    December 11, 2001 - 11:18 am
    when I played the biggest cities in the U.S. -like Mechanicville, NY - Altoona, Pa - Newark, DE - Pittsfield, MA with my piano trio in lounges - with my partner doing stand-up in strip joints - acting in summer stock - learning how to survive on 85 cent dinners at the Kellog Cafeteria in NYC - grabbing solo piano gigs - or short one-night tours with big bands -- all the things that teach you that you better have passion for the business- OR - enormous talent- OR - rare good luck --- or you better get the hell out of the business before you're stuck for life - so I went "legit." But it was fun for a kid in his very early 20's just out of college, especially the gigs in Toronto, where the women fell all over American entertainers.

    Your description of those lounge gigs you played reminded me of a movie - Ida Lupino, in Roadhouse. Remember? She was the classic, sultry pianist-singer - and, if I remember correctly, the guy she fell for was Howard Duff.

    I loved the reminiscence.

    By the way, did you see Sean Penn in Woody Allen's Sweet and Lowdown? Don't miss it. It's worth it for the background music alone.

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    December 11, 2001 - 12:03 pm
    Wow do we have a bevy of attempts trying to imitate Dylan's discription of himself as a boy coming out of the snow-laden lane - Wow impressive! Hats off and three cheers to Nellie for getting us started - FaithP I can see you lifting and coming out from under those heavy comforters - I loved the dichotomy of your describing comfort, bravery amidst your morning pain - Ol Imp, sounds like you are struggling with your soul just now, good luck and God go with you - Malryn wow this prompted you to give us a story, if we didn't know it was you and your life, it would be a magazine piece - parman, 'Thanks for the Memory' - will you be trying our exercize using Dylan as an example - come on in and join the fun.

    Had y'all noticed the "three's" used over and over -
    Three hmmm it could be the Trinity but three also symbolizes - creative powers - body, spirit and body - three gifts of the Magi - Faith, Hope and Charity - the three Fatesand in Qabalism three represents understanding and the trinity of male, female and uniting intelligence - Three wishes - three cheers - can y'all think of any more?

    What use of three did you enjoy the most in the story and do you have any threes going on in your life that you hadn't realized?

    FaithP
    December 11, 2001 - 12:22 pm
    Ok Barbara Let me count the threes, well no I will do it some other time. But it is a thought that captures my imagination. Fp

    Ol Imp
    December 11, 2001 - 01:50 pm
    I'm the youngest of 3 children - been married 3 times - piled my car up 3 times - retired 3 times - I like 3 kinds of ice cream.

    Malryn (Mal)
    December 11, 2001 - 03:01 pm
    Parman:

    That's about when I was in the business, too, and I know exactly what you mean. I joined the musician's union after I left the cushy hotel lounge job, which lasted quite a long time as musicians' jobs go, and never did know after that where I'd be working from one week to the next. Just before I quit that life, the Sheraton chain wanted me to tour its hotels, but like a fool (I say this in retrospect) I married that university kid I mentioned instead. I haven't seen that Woody Allen movie. Will have to watch it.

    I have three kids; always hated the Three Stooges, was extremely surprised when I walked over to the grade school once and watched my older son get up on a stage and belt out "We Three Kings". I had no idea he could sing that way. Can't stand Neopolitan ice cream with strawberry, vanilla and chocolate flavors, and always thought waltz music was for the birds, though it was pretty when danced in movies or on the stage. The church I went to didn't believe in the trinity, so I missed all that. Three has never been my favorite number, but maybe it's because it's so difficult to make eeeee sound good when you sing. Never liked the key of E, either - too many sharps. E flat is better. I think in flats!

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    December 11, 2001 - 03:31 pm
    I've played quite a bit of chamber music in my life, and when I was living in Florida a cellist friend who was married to a violinist invited me to join her and her husband in a performance of three concerti written for three pianos, two concerti by Johann Sebastian Bach and one by Mozart. I was given three days to practice and learn these works I'd never seen before. Are you kidding?

    The day of the performance, which included not just three pianos but a string quintet playing the orchestral part, I woke up with a terrible cold. I was very worried about playing Bach, since I never much liked playing his music. Mozart had always been easy for me.

    Well, I got up to the second floor of my friends' bayfront house which overlooked Matanzas Bay and had a wonderful view of St. Augustine. The entire second floor was a music room which contained cellos, a bass viol, violins, violas, three pianos, a clavichord and a harpsichord among other instruments. I sat down at one of the pianos, and we began our performance for a very few select guests.

    The Bach concerti went fine to my amazement, but when it came to the Mozart, I was in the beginning of the last movement and had to sneeze. By the time I went back to the music, I had lost count of the measures that were rests for me, and never did find where I was supposed to be.

    It was one of the most embarrassing experiences I ever had, since the other pianists included a concert pianist and the dean of a music school. I've been really down on THREE ever since.

    Mal

    YiLi Lin
    December 11, 2001 - 03:33 pm
    Meeting myself: The sun reflects an obscure starlight off her tail feathers, wet from morning dew. She banks left leading the V-formation and guides the flock into the air currents in the trough of rollers pushing their way from South Africa to the Carolina shore. Pelicans are not the most attractive birds, their grace confined to flight. Suddenly her eye catches a glint of possibility- she abandons the flock and rides the circular current, up, up, up- touches the sky.

    Threes: Mine has been a life of twos now that I think of it, over the years my cut off point has always been the three- I'll try something once, always give it another shot, but historically after that I've made a decision to let go of a losing proposition or take on a new challenge. Except of course, 3 airplane trips- hmmm now that I think of those flights to hell that is probably why I am not big on threes.

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    December 11, 2001 - 04:31 pm
    Hahaha "let me count the threes" Oh FaithP what a hoot -

    Ol IMp lots of threes from the major events to the banel -

    Now Mal do'n't like three, she really doesn't like three.

    Yili Lin how original to see yourself as a Pelican and then to do this uncommon and difficult thing considering the weightyness of a Pelican to fly high in the sky - sounds like your spirit soars while your body weighs heavy in your life.

    Two hmmm duality - diversity - rooted hence balance, stability, reflection, - opposite poles - the dual nature of man - Christ, the two naturs of God and Man - the duality of samsara - yin yang and the Chinese Yin terrestrail, inauspicious.

    parman
    December 11, 2001 - 04:47 pm
    Let's see - 3 wives - 1 for a cuppa cawfee - one lasted 31 years and lost my dearest to cancer - the third lasted (I'd love to say 3 years -) 5 years.

    Three kids (really 4 but that's a long story - for another season in another year).

    Always considered three my lucky number, but at this stage of life, can't really remember why.

    Three operations. (Ugh)

    Three mothers-in-law (Double Ugh!)

    Tossed three coins in Trevi Fountain in Rome - didn't work.

    Some of the best show biz acts were 3's - the Stooges, The Ritz Bros - The Marx Bros - The Andrews Sisters - The Three Suns - The King Sisters - The Lennon Sisters - The McGuire Sisters - The Kingston Trio - All the magnificent chamber music trios (list far too long to get into here) - FDR-Churchill-Stalin (well, 2 out of 3 aint bad) - The 3 Knaves (that was MY act & when we worked the Borscht Belt we were the 3 Goniffs - if you need a translation please knock 3 times)

    Some of the best trips in my life were 3's (nd this one really amazes even me, now that I think of it.

    1. England, Scotland, Ireland 2. The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg 3. Hong Kong-Thailand-Singapore 4. Brazil, Paraguay, Argentina 5. Italy, Italy, Italy (just didn't want to leave) 6. Russia, Russia, Russia (although today it would be Russia, Ukraine, Georgia 7. Denmark, Sweden, Norway

    Come to think of it - that's really amazing - never thought about that before.

    parman
    December 11, 2001 - 05:30 pm
    It was the biggest snow of my life, and New York City suffered from a rare, new disease: "5 Borough Paralysis." You may have heard of it. It was called "You can't get there from here." It was 1947, and 24 inches of the incredible whiteness blanketed my life, along with 8 million others. But when things like this present themselves, the hell with the 8 million, what you really want to know is "How's Dad gonna' get home?"

    It was December 22 - or was it 21. Or 23? These dates all seem to run together from the vantage point of 54 years. One thing for sure, though, it sure was winter... the most winter I can ever remember. And yet -- and yet -- I can remember an even earlier winter, with only 14 inches of snow - but I was much younger - and the mounds at the ends of everyone's driveways were so high, above my head, above, even, my upreaching arm and stretched out fingertips, as high as I could strain and still not touch the tiptop. Not even Gabe, the tallest 8 year old of us all, could achieve that Everest-like height. And no Tensing Norkay to help us along as we stood and stared upward.

    There was only one thing to do. For me and my pals. Drag out the shovels and start to dig the tunnels. Our plan? To dig from Edson Avenue, all the way to Grace Avenue. Through backyards and alleyways. So far. So frightening. So exciting. Would the Grace Avenue Gang even know we were planning such an adventure? Would they dig an opposition tunnel? Would it be a race to see who finished first? Or would we, God forbid, meet in the middle through some idiot savant stroke of engineering genius?

    And if we did - would there be room to throw snowballs at each other?

    No such luck. We dug and dug and dug some more and finally wound up in Mr. Cooper's backyard, of all people, the meanest man on the street. But before he could discover the invasion, the tunnel collapsed and out we struggled, sputtering snow, digging icy lumps out from under knitted cuffs at wrist and ankle. And, exhausted and sopping wet, admitted defeat when we found we had gone a measly 18 feet - and in the wrong direction.

    But Eugene's mother took pity, and made us hot chocolate, with mini-marshallows bubbling-bobbing on top, six to a cup, wonder of wonders... and a preview of her magical Christmas cookies, fresh-baked, warm from the oven, topped with red and green sprinkles of the season, and melting away in our mouths in a sensation that only years later could we identify as sensual. At age 8, who knew from sensual? The best we could think of was "delicious." And Mrs. Canabria keeping us outside for fear our dripping galoshes would flood her entry hall, that she had just mopped and waxed and covered with the inevitable newspapers that every mother on the block kept in goodly supply.

    My own dear mother, at times like ths, would put down wet weather runners on top of the everyday runners, and issue the command my Dad and I had come to know so well. "Take your shoes off before you come in." Did she mean leave them outside and wet our socks? Or leave them just inside the door, at the edge of the runner? Or walk gingerly inside, whre it was warm at least, and pull them off there in the middle of the runner? It was a dangerous guessing game, dealing with a woman who had slipcovers for the slipcovers, and lampshade covers that changed with the season. I seem to remember once when, in the dim light that came through those lampshade covers, she rushed to spread extra covering over the chairs on a rainy day and covered my grandmother by mistake. Or was that just a story told by the funny uncle that became family legend over the years? Mother denied it vigorously through all the years that followed, but my grandma just smiled wisely and kept her mouth shut.

    Why is it that today, the snow piles all seem smaller, and the children are all inside in front of TVs and Computers, while the world outside goes to waste? And they're bored with these picture-book memories, playing computer games instead, or waiting for transport to organized athletics, while the great books lie unread, pining, I'm sure, for the touch of young hands and the chance to touch young minds. What, after all, are the books for, if not to entrance a new generation? The books of our childhood - the tales of King Arthur and Robin Hood and the cowboy heroes.

    So I sit watching the grandchildren grow like young trees - so straight - so beautiful, so handsome, too old now to climb on grandpa's lap - too old now to put their faces up close to mine - peering into my eyes with the wonder of the young, touching my cheek with chubby fingers. That's gone now - replaced by busy lives, new interests, no time, no time......... no time.

    But look - the snow is starting to fall. Will it it be high enough this time? Will it pile up near the door? I can hear Mother's voice now ... "Take your shoes off before you come in." And the snow falls. And the tears of memory fall. And they run down cheeks now creased by time. And the heart fills and overflows with bittersweet. Where did the years go? And why do we grow old?

    Nellie Vrolyk
    December 11, 2001 - 06:02 pm
    I'm thinking about the number three and if it has had any significance in my life. But the only thing I can think of is that I often wish I had three arms when there are more things for me to carry than I have arms. I wonder if the extra arm should be on the right side or on the left side? Maybe it should mysteriously grow whenever it was needed? LOL those are my only thoughts on the number three.

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    December 11, 2001 - 07:03 pm
    Whoopos Nellie you got in while I was waxing over threes - three arms hmmm I wonder if they would bring about three harms heheha - but I know what you mean about never having enough appendages to balance the laod.

    parman - you out-did yourself - Bravo! In fact I just had to e-mail that one to my daughter who is now acquantied with snow - last summer they moved to a tiny mountain village in North Carolina where behind the house are acres and a stream at the foot of a steep incline that the boys play and imagine themselves to be... for hours on a Saturday.

    Threeeeees and threeeeeeees are part of your life as well -

    Your travel threes got me thinking - so here are my three's:

    Ol Imp
    December 11, 2001 - 09:36 pm
    The most important - 3 ice creams ; Pecan praline, Black Walnut, Butter Pecan --- 3 tender moments at spots - A penthouse in Venice CA -totally lost in time and space in the arms of another - Around the commune's yellow Geodesic dome in Santa Fe NM to melting dark eyes - Mill Valley N of San Francisco -An A frame in early am with others ---- At 3 spots with another -winding roads, Tatra mtns, Poland - Cycling with another in Petra Santa, Italy to a Coop for wine - Touching hands and souls on a train to Petrovodorsk , Russia -

    Nellie Vrolyk
    December 12, 2001 - 02:46 pm
    Come to think of it there are a few more threes in my life: I am one of three sisters and have four brothers. I have only been to three different countries in my life: the Netherlands -where I was born, Canada -where I've lived since I was 10, and the USA.

    Here is a link to a Christmas story I wrote specially for the friend's site it is on -I thought you might enjoy reading it.

    A Christmas Poodle

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    December 13, 2001 - 01:37 am
    More threes from both Ol Imp and Nellie - I'm trying now to describe things in threes just for the fun of it - There was some twos as well -did y'all notice?

    Ok this Christmas box was another head scratcher for me -
    "And then the presents?"
    "And then the Presents, after the Christmas box."
    it seems seperate from the presents - opened first - and now that I have looked it up I am even more confused - it may have had its beginnings in some of these explanations and now it has just become a Christmas hamper of all good things to eat - I ought to go over into the British discussion and ask hmmm - but in the meantime I have a few links to share.
    The Princess Mary 1914 Christmas Box gifts

    Christmas Box Available all the year round

    dole of the Christmas box'

    Meaning and origins of phrases including: A Christmas box - Cherry Ripe

    Shop 'Til You Drop at -
    1. Marks and Spencers;
    2. Harrods;
    3. Fortnum & Masons;
    4. Hamleys;
    5. Liberty's;
    6. Harvey Nichols;
    7. Burberrys;
    8. Selfridges

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    December 13, 2001 - 01:46 am
    Nellie, your story is a delight and the accompanying graphics just make the story come alive as if we can all ring bells as we share kindness - Dylan Thomas has the bit about bells in this Christmas story -
    All that the children could hear was a ringing of bells.
    "You mean that the postman went rat-a-tat-tat and the doors rang?"
    "I mean that the bells the children could hear were inside them."
    "I only hear thunder sometimes, never bells."
    "There were church bells, too."
    "Inside them?"
    "No, no, no, in the bat-black, snow-white belfries,
    Of course I just had to look BELL up in my trusty An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols by J.C.Cooper -
    Bell: Consecration; the motion of the elements; a charm against the powers of destruction. Bells ringing can either be a summons or a warning. Christian Church bells call and encourage the faithful, put evil spirits to flight and quell storms. The sanctus bell announces the presence of Christ at the mass.
    Since Christmas is a combination of Christ and Mass the day is inferring the Mass of Christ and so I can see this bit in the story alluding to announcing the presence of Chirst in this Child's holiday in addition to "No, no, no, in the bat-black, snow-white belfries,..." sounding for all the world as a place where ringing bells would put evil spirits to flight and quell storms.
    This is reminding me of a Jimmy Stewart movie...what is the name of that movie...his name is George in it and he has a car accident followed by an experience where he comes to the town as if he never lived...Oh y"all know the story...it is a Christmas movie...at the end, surrounded by all his friends and most of the town, in his arms is one of his daughters and when the bell decorating the Christmas Tree rings she says someone is getting their wings - I always loved that idea - the ringing in of someone getting their wings.
    Thunder is not a Christian symbol but it is among other traditions a Scandinavian and Teutonic symbol that I think translates to the British Isles since the cultures mixed.
    Thunder: Thor, the thunder god; Donnar is a storm god; thunder gods are often depicted with red hair; divine anger; the voice of sky gods.
    What do y'all think, is Dylan suggesting that out of the Church belfry is not only the ringing of the bell to summan and encourage the faithful, in addition drive away evil but, he is hearing a message, like coal in his stocking, his personal thunder or even an angry God? He seems to be saying something more here than just describing children and bells and church belfries.

    FaithP
    December 13, 2001 - 10:30 am
    Jimmy Stewart in Its a Wonderful Life is an all time favorite of the media and plays every christmas week for the last 45 years or more. The depressed man trys to commit suicide, says it would have been better if he had nevre been born, and an angel shows him his town as it would be if he had never been born. Then the angel puts him back in his own time and he is at home with family when he tells his daughter about the angel. HIS angel who saved him just got his wings.boohoo it is a tear jerker the first time you see it ...fp

    parman
    December 13, 2001 - 11:46 am
    Then you see it a few more times and you start to watch it for the little things. YOu begin to appreciate the performances. You marvel at Stewart, who is letter perfect in the role.

    You watch Lionel Barrymore playing his familiar "old curmudgeon" role.

    You get a renewed respect for Henry Travers - the character everyone recognized but unlike Cheers "no one knew his name." Poor guy was always confused with Cecil Kellaway and Harry Davenport or George Cleveland - Hollywood's other perennial grandpas.

    But after 25 or 30 years - and then another 30 or 40 years - it begins to grate on your nerves. "Again?" you ask? Again?" But they keep bringing it back. Even colorized it once, I think (ugh!)

    "Stooooooppppp" you want to scream.

    But you watch it, no? Damn right. One of Frank Capra's very best - despite the fact that it was maudlin, and syrupy and corny. It was and still remains an all-American favorite - and somehow I have a feeling that this year, it's going to show more frequently than it has in the past few years. The conditions are just right.

    The other film you can't get away from is the annual "March of the Wooden Soldiers" - the Laurel and Hardy version of "Babes in Toyland" - or vice versa. I've been watching the clunker for all my life, it seems, and loving it all the time. My kids grew up with it, too - and now the grandkids - and when it's on, everyone's in the room, watching. We groan, but we watch.

    Which reminds of a funny incident.

    They remade "Babes in Toyland" with Tommy Sands and Annette Funicello - and boy, it was a real stiff. This was 1961 or early 62. I was going with my second wife at the time, and we packe 2 kids in the car - one was just 3, the other barely 2. It was their very first movie.

    We walked in to the theatre - and they first were dazzled by the candy counter. Then, entering the auditorium, they were goggle-eyed. All those people.

    We sat down - the lights dimmed - they stirred a bit uncomfortably - Shari grabbed her mother's hand - Alan reached for mine. The film started. They were transfixed. But then - about 10 minutes into the film - a loud voice was heard -- Shari, the 3 year old: "Mommy, Mommy", she said. "Change the channel." The audience broke up - so did I. But they stayed with it - and loved it. And on the way out - Shari said: "You know? I was scared - but can we watch it again?"

    FaithP
    December 13, 2001 - 12:23 pm
    Oh Parman...do add Miracle on 32nd Street and you have all my Christmas movie have to, dont want to,but it isnt christmas without them especially Dickens Christmas story of Scrooge, in its many incarnations including gender changes for Scrooge heheheh.fp

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    December 13, 2001 - 03:11 pm
    Yes, yes A Wonderful Life and now I do remember - yes Faith he was looking over the bridge and we deduce he jumped because next he was drying off with HIS angle -- Another I love the original is The Bishop's Wife Danzel is a fine actor but oh the grace and sophistication with that charm and sparkling wit behind his eyes of Cary Grant and Loretta Young so glamourous and yet a softness.

    And so parman you took your children to a movie that scared them, a supposed to be tame "Children's" movie - that brought up for me how My first movie was Snow White... we were so frightened of the witch and my sister 2 and 1/2 years younger cryed so loud that my mother had to take us out of the theater to calm us - she even treated us to a peice of candy. When we went back to our seats everytime something scarry would happen she comforted us by putting her hand over our eyes for us.

    Well I figured out the thunder bit - remember I said I had a tape of A Child's Christmas in Wales read by Dylan Thomas recorded in 1952 - well I put it on again and this time sat and really listened rather than it just playing it as background to my other activities.

    That voice oh my - but it is evident that He as an adult is telling the story and is taking the parts of the children in the story as well as the part of some unseen unknown children asking him questions as children do when you are telling them a story. And so the bit about him hearing Thunder is him as an adult making that statement while answering these unseen children about the bells in the children of the time and place of his story.

    So the thunder could be his remark about his inner self as an adult but, it could also be a word to signify that all adults learn about and have some thunder in their heart and soul. Therefore thunder is a way to further identify an adult.

    It is so much fun listening to this story now - it is like I know what is coming next and can smile a smile of recognition waiting for the next words that I know are coming.

    Ol Imp
    December 13, 2001 - 10:27 pm
    I see the "bells inside them" as hope - The adult thunder with no bells ; is reality with no hope - The bells from the "snow -white belfries" is a signal that there is hope out there; but, it is an unreachable, illusional sense partially provided by storks.

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    December 14, 2001 - 12:21 am
    Oh yes I do like that Ol Imp "HOPE." Yes, as I understand real hope is having faith in the unseen - children are as trusting as they come about the unseen where as most adults see Hope as memory as Saint John of the Cross described it in the "Dark Night of the Soul."- Hoping for something that we can recognize which is really memory. And so yes, I can really see children are filled with hope where as adults are not as trusting, we are more cautious, we see our responsiblities as a reason to 'need to control' the outcome and when the outcome is not what we expect or believe we need, we assume hope and faith are illusionary.

    Oh how great Ol Imp for you to have seen that and pointed it out - it will be a new image for me as I remind myself that I can dwell on my thunder or uncover my bells.

    Ol Imp
    December 14, 2001 - 12:35 pm
    I need my bells of hope - i've got to let go of the thunder of reality.

    Nellie Vrolyk
    December 18, 2001 - 05:08 pm
    What about the food or edibles mentioned? You can tell that sweets or candies are dearest to a young boy's heart as they are lovingly listed.

    "Bags of moist and many-coloured jelly babies..."
    "hardboileds, toffee, fudge and allsorts, crunches, cracknels, humbugs, glaciers, marzipan, and butterwelsh for the Welsh."
    "And sugar fags"
    "sherry and walnuts"
    "and bottled beer and crackers by the dessertspoon"
    "chestnuts"
    "the gravy smell of the dinners of others"
    "the bird smell"
    "the brandy"
    "the pudding and mince" "For dinner we had turkey and blazing pudding"

    Oddly enough I cannot remember much of the food we had at Christmas. We never went in for having a special meal. But what we ate usually was filling and good.

    FaithP
    December 18, 2001 - 06:47 pm
    I remember a bucket, a wooden bucket of hard candy that my mother recieved every Christmas from some relative. It must have been a gallon bucket as she saved them to store stuff in, in the pantry. Now that candy was little squares with a soft pocket in the middle red and green. Others looked like red and white stripped taffy pulled and twisted then cut into 2 inch pieces. Some were wrapped in individual cellophone the little round ones that were all different fruit flavors. It lasted a good long time as we could only have a piece after dinner so that the teeth would be brushed shortly thereafter. Once in awhile we could have a piece in the late afternoon during the christmas vacation and it was a wonderful prize that bucket of candy. fp

    Ol Imp
    December 18, 2001 - 08:58 pm
    Mother's fruit cake - with raisins, nuts etc. - heavy and moist - I can taste it now - what a delight at christmas .

    Ol Imp
    December 18, 2001 - 09:04 pm
    Seeded dates stuffed with a mixture of butter and confectioners sugar - and a walnut put in the center..

    FaithP
    December 18, 2001 - 09:56 pm
    I have stuffed a million dates with that hard sauce mixture and a nut. Also we made those burbon balls in the 40's remember them. All the little kids thought it would be a treat and then dumped them when no one was looking. fp

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    December 19, 2001 - 01:48 am
    I'm remembering cookies and cookies and more cookies of every conceivable kind - decorated, gingered, soft, hard, shaped, round, square, with jam centers, with raisins, spices, white and fried, delicate with butter (ration stamps saved for months for those)

    Mom made a bushel basket full of cookies during Advent that we could only have one on Sundays since it was Advent (a meatless, sugerless time of fasting) and then days before Christmas out came the blue tissue paper and white ribbon as we carefully made our choices of who got what cookies. We placed them on the tissue with the prettiest on top and then tied with a ribbon I would be the one to deliver the precious packages to: neighbors, and the Nuns, and the post man, and the two old folks from the Swedish Home who chatted every morning with my mom as they farmed the few acres around the big house, and Father Albert and Father Jorden our parish priests.

    Yep faith we still made bourbon balls in the 60s and 70s - and the kids always had a taffy pull with their friends over during the school break after Christmas .

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    December 20, 2001 - 11:22 am
    Well this grandmother - mother - aunt to some is wanted in the kitchen and can no longer sit on the very edge of my chair poised to read all your wonders that have been posted here within this space of time.

    I will peek in over the weekend but festoons are needed and turkey bought while carols are filling my night air.

    I've still Christmas cards to post and packages to wrap and my tummy is filled with excitment - so I am ringing the gong on round three or is it four or maybe five and will join you again before the big day. In case you are leaving us - with glass in hand a toast -

    Have a Merry Christmas y'all!

    YiLi Lin
    December 25, 2001 - 06:57 pm
    New Years greetings- sitting here with a most wonderful Stollen and spice tea- a final breather before the new years gathering on the beach. Hmm I too made 'booze balls' for years, that was the quintessential gift - packed in mason jars with a shot of booze soaked tissue paper for the added jolt- used to have those jars lined up for anyone who stopped by-

    I remember my mother making mince meat cookies- which became my brother's favorite as an adult- and that was his gift from her for years- aside from the delicious cookie, she'd find these unique ways of presenting them- one year her theme was blackwatch plaid- bows, bowers- napkins all designed in a way to hold the maximum number of cookies.

    me- i used to like the christmas pudding- it came in some kind of blue can that she'd put a little hole in and then place the entire can in a pot of boiling water- she served it with a lemony sauce- i have no clue what that pudding is- or how to make the sauce, so like her amazing potato salad recipe it is something that is simply The Past.

    Ol Imp
    December 26, 2001 - 12:42 pm
    Friend in England did a Yorkshire Pudding - a tasty pastry .

    YiLi Lin
    December 28, 2001 - 04:53 pm
    Happy new year- especially to barbara for AGAIN- hosting an amazing discussion.

    Malryn (Mal)
    December 28, 2001 - 04:57 pm
    Yes, thank you, Barb. I enjoyed this discussion very, very much.

    Happy New Year to all of you!

    Mal

    Nellie Vrolyk
    December 28, 2001 - 04:58 pm
    I've had a wonderful time in this discussion sharing everyone's memories. Thank you all!

    parman
    December 29, 2001 - 10:31 am
    Barbara -- I really have to thank you for coming up with this subject. Since it served as my introduction to the "Books" board, I couldn't image a better "first time." (It didn't hurt at all).

    My daughter (who's living with me till she gets married in a few months) looked at some of things I posted and said they were better than some of my verbal reminiscences, things with which I have regaled the family over the years. I guess seeing it in black and white lends additional gravitas to one's stuff, such as it is.

    Interestingly, she asked me for more memories of my maternal grandmother - her great grandma - whom we all called "Nana". That amazing woman lived to the age of 102 - but vehemently denied it, as she put on full make-up and carefully color coordinated her dress for the day. My stories about Nana could fill a short book, and that's something I intend to do.

    Anyway - thanks again for making me feelso much at homehere - and I am eagerly looking forward to the resumption of The Curious Mind.

    Happy New Year one and all.

    FaithP
    December 29, 2001 - 12:37 pm
    parman do write your book about your nana. I have written short stories about my "ancestors" and am doing more. I think I also will put them in a book form with my family tree and this will be a gift I can leave my great=grandchildren. Faith

    Ol Imp
    December 29, 2001 - 04:24 pm
    This was a nice adventure for me (thank you Barbara) - I took a look at my ceramic dragon that I purchased in Wales - I remembered moments in Amroth ,Wales -especially in the pub - I like to write, but havn't done much, did one, brief ,genealogical history, of a colorful ancestor from my background.- as I think of writing; my reality (non-fiction) portion is sort of gross - tends to push me more toward fantasy and fiction.

    I do know there was a strange odyssey in the 50's with two buddies that took me from San Diego to Los Angeles ,with stops in between - We wound up at UCLA to see a stage reading of Dylan Thomas' Under Milkwood (James Whitmore as Capt. Cat)- The combination of the odyssey and the incisiveness of Thomas' character studies has stuck with me over the years. - Thanks again for the opportunity to relive these moments.

    YiLi Lin
    January 1, 2002 - 03:49 pm
    faith- thanks for beating me to it- i sure think parman should write LOTS of stories. happy new year all- hmm are we finished?

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    January 2, 2002 - 12:31 am
    Sorry have had my family here - all 5 grandboys slept on my living room floor in their sleeping bags - we have had dinners, and a night of fondue etc. etc. I will be posting a bowing out tomorrow and the conversation will be here untill Friday.

    This has been a wonderful experience for me and I just loved all the posts - not only the ones about y'alls families and childhoods but the ones about the book have been fabulous.

    till tomorrow when half the family goes home -

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    January 7, 2002 - 12:15 am
    This was the busiest 12 days of Christmas I've experienced in years - it was only today I realized, it had been 1986 the last time the family celebrated the season here at my home. The last of the Family went home on Friday and I did have to work on Saturday but today, "King's Day" I had brunch with old friends and we shared the traditional circular sweet bread, with three silver crowns baked within and covered in brightly hued sugar crystals.

    We will be archeiving this discussion and I want to express once more the joy of not only the discussion but the words of Dylan Thomas.

    And so spotlighted as on stage for the final bow - several cats sleek and long as jaguars slink and sidle across front stage. As the stage fills with smoke, entering from stage right and growing louder with each step Mrs. Prothero is beating the dinner gong followed by Mr. Prothero smacking the smoke with a slipper. Both, their son Jim and Jim's friend Dylan, enter throwing an armful of snowballs at the smoke. Jim's aunt peers round the curtain as three tall firemen enter from stage left. They all take their applause and step back in line as wool-white snow falls across the stage.

    Then as bells start to ring the postman with a wind-cherried nose and sprinkling eyes takes his bow and steps to the back of the stage as an old man, fawn-bowlered, yellow-gloved, in spats walks on followed by two hale young men with pipes blazing with long scarfs enter bow and joing the postman. They are followed by a young boy who saunters on stage stands next to Dylan, blowing stridently a whistle.

    Several robust men with cigars in hand enter as does, several women carrying tureens. One timed women with tea cup in hand bow shyly. Another, Auntie Bessie, walks on stage carrying a bottle of elderberry wine, followed by Auntie Hannah with pot in hand singing loudly and Auntie Dosie popping some aspirin. A dog runs among the legs of all on stage.

    Then young Dylan and Jim step forward; they are joined by Dan and Jack. Standing stage center they give us "Good King Wenceslas." Off stage a small, dry voice joined their singing. An uncle bows his fiddle, and a cousin singing 'Cherry Ripe' and then another uncle gives us a few bars of "Drake's Drum."

    The applause is long, the audience, on their feet in warm appreciation as on the gradully darkening stage birds the color of red-flannel petticoats whisk past and it snowed and it snowed.

    Like moonlight the spotlight picks out each character for a final bow till the music rises from the houses on our hill next year.

    Ol Imp
    January 8, 2002 - 09:38 am
    It was nice during the holidays to experience a visit from my brother and a number of other friends - at times , we broke bread together and shared drink.-- It has been nice to share thoughts during the holiday season - thank you for the opportunity.

    I guess I have perceived life as sort of a random set of happenings that we have no control over or that there is no design to - recently a minister, his wife and two of his children were killed , while driving their car, in Indiana, by a falling Oak tree - there was no wind or rain - they just happen to be driving by the tree and it fell on their car..

    So here we are on the stage of life , strutting our stuff - Is there a manager and director controlling our business as we go down stage ? Or is this an impromptu romp - some characters in search of whatever -stay tuned - next year portends another - The curtain shall rise - the stage hand will tie it off on the batten - the properties will be there - and there we will be - nice seeing you through the looking glass on the stage behind the proscenium arch -

    Marjorie
    January 8, 2002 - 08:34 pm
    Thank you everyone for your participation in this discussion. This will be Read Only in this location now. The discussion is being moved to Archives.