Curious Minds ~ 2003 June Export

Hello everyone, welcome to a new topic 'Favorite literary characters'.

I seem to have a new favorite with each new book I read, but I also have a few enduring favorites. First and foremost of these are Frodo and Sam from Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings trilogy. Second come Winnie the Pooh and his friend Eeyore -they've brought laughter into my life more than once.

Who are your favorite characters in books?

Favorite Literary Characters

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews on the WorldWideWeb

We all have our favorite characters who are found in the pages of the books that we enjoy reading. Do you have only one favorite character or do you have a dozen? Is your favorite character found in classic literature? In the pages from books read in your youth? Perhaps your favorite inhabits the pages of a romance, a mystery, a fantasy, science fiction, or the latest best seller? Who is your favorite literary character?

100 FICTIONAL CHARACTERS

Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Nellie Vrolyk

For those of you who are interested in the Middle East, we are starting a new book discussion on June 9th about an American family's search for their old friends in Iran. Very well written with sights, sounds,smells,laughter and tears, I think anyone would enjoy this book. Searching For Hassan

If I think back over my entire life and my reading I would have to say that Jo from Little Women and Anne of the Anne of Green Gables fame would have to be my all time favorites. These would be followed closely by Jane Eyre the Bronte character and Gertie the little match girl from "The Lamp Lighter" Which reminds me I am going to see if I can track down a copy of this book. I believe it was this book which first awoke my social conscience as a child.

Carolyn

Missed the past two weeks since I was out of town but am home so I should now be ready to read and post here.

There are many but I think Anne of GreenGables stands out since I read that when I was about 10 and it influenced me enough to change my name from Anna to Anne...a name I kept until about 6 mos after my husbands death when I could no longer bear for anyone to call me Anne...that was his name for me and I requested family and friends to now call me by my given name. Strange but it is painful to even speak of it....Now I will have to give a lot of thought to other characters to see how they affected me.

Hi, Nellie, I see you are at the controls of the CM Trolley and I'm climbing on board right now so that I can get a window seat) I want to see and hear everything about this discussion. Thank you, Nellie, for setting this up. I have so many favorite characters I must take a moment to sort them all out. I hope you don't mind me talking about favorite mystery and adventure characters. You see, that is my genre.

Bill H

Right now I would say that my favorite character is from a book that I first heard about in a book group here. It is called These Lovely Bones and it is narrated by a murdered 14 year old.

The book is absorbing and thought provoking. Its also not at all what you would expect and is in a way life affirming.

The second favorite character is not always very nice, but is reacting according to the mores and values of the times. This character is the mother and wife in a book called the Poisonwood Bible. A fierce evangelical Baptist takes his family and mission to the Belgian Congo in 1959. The mother is both detached, heroic and suffering. This is a book that grips you from the beginning as does These lovely Bones.

Well, still thinking about firsts and also characters, I early on loved Huckleberry Finn. I always saw him as a smart, but totally practical survivor. He was the kid who could see the naked emperor and laugh. He had the good sense to realize he didn't want to end up living with a bunch of prudish stuffed shirts for eternity, so turned down the promise of a heaven and all the restrictions to life and thinking that went with it. Nothing like living rejected by society as a little kid to make it nearly impossible to fit comfortably within its rules and norms later on.

I also liked Marcus Aurelius Fortunatus Tidd, the chubby boy detective who solved mysteries in Boys' Life and later, books. He was different because of being very smart and fat, but still led his gang of friends into and, safely, out of adventures. With all the tubby young teens growing up right now, someone ought to bring back those stories.

When I was young teen, I enjoyed the perfect heroes created by Fredrick Faust (If I am remembering correctly,) who wrote westerns under the name of Max Brand. Even his hero's dogs and horses were always perfect.

As a young adult, I was busy with a job and family, but read more non-fiction when I did read. Ben Franklin will always be my favorite (almost) real character. I say almost, because I read his autobiography and have realized how often he pushed the truth. He had been asked to write the book to show young men how to become as great as they could be, so he changed or left out the more questionable parts of his life. He was a hero for a whole lifetime, because he kept learning, thinking, and solving new problems as he matured and aged.

Well, I'm sure many of you read more current books than I do and have a bunch of newer favorites to share.

I wouldn't say she is my favorite, but I still get a kick out of Lucia. (E.F.Benson). She is infuriating, yet funny. I re-read those books every few years for the cast of colorful characters.

I have several favorites: Jo of Little Women; Anne of Green Gables; and Ave Maria of the Big Stone Gap series. Can't think of any men right now!

Marilyn

Nellie,

Tigger from Winnie the Pooh, who else?

Tiger Tom

Ah Yes Tom who could not but love the irrepressible Tigger! Boing! Boing!

How about Piglet with his loving heart but such insecurity?

And the Magnanimous Toad from Wind in the Willows?

Carolyn

Gosh I wonder if we could travel down memory lane and one day do a discussion on Wind in the Willows. I see much more in the plot now I read it through adult eyes. Its quite a meaningful book really.

Carolyn

PS Isn't it telling how many of us have gone back to our childhood reading to bring forth our favorite characters?

Carolyn

Fair warning!: I know I'm going to think of another favorite character every time I turn around. The first two that popped into my mind when I saw the new topic were Mr. Pickwick and Mr. Micawber. Then I saw the opening post and said, "Oh, yes, of course, Frodo and Sam and dear old Bilbo Baggins." And Miss Marple! And.. no, that's enough for now. ...Babi

Kiwi lady - Your mention of, "The Little Match Girl, reminded me of a book I read, as a child, that first awakened my social conscience. It was about the plight of a migrant farm family, in California, in the late 30's or early 40's. The little girl in the story was named, Janey Larkin, and the book was, Blue Willow.

Angelface - I agree with you on the mother, Orleanna Price, in, The Poisonwood Bible. What a memorable character she was - encompassing both good and bad. That was such a wonderful book! I've read it three times, and I get something new out of it every time I read it. It will become a classic, I think.

I'll be back with more of my favorites - I have a long list!

My all time favorite person in a book is Heidi - the one with the short curly dark hair that lived in Switzerland with her grandfather. I don't know how many times I read the book. I would not hear when I was called to come and do the dishes. I have always wished that I could visit Switzerland. The closest I ever came to it was a place called Little Switzerland somewhere in Georiga, I think. My husband and I stopped there one night on our honemoon. It was so beautiful. My next favorite people are the Trapp Family Singers. I love yodeling and Octoberfest. Cowboys don't yodel anymore although LeAnn Rimes did once.

Oh yes I had the Heidi book too! I can still remember the smell of the book it was a new one and the paper smell was very strong. Remember the old grandfather and Peter the goatherd!

Carolyn

Peter - of course. He did marry Heidi in the sequels. I didn't fall in love with the sequels as much because Heidi became blond and that never seemsed right.

Favorite literary characters? Since I was a teeny horse maniac.. Misty of Chincotege, My Friend Flicka and Thunderhead.. The Black Stallion.. Oh me.. all from my childhood

Stephanie - How about Black Beauty? Oh the tears I shed over that book. I must have read it 100 times!

Carolyn

Mary Roberts Rhinehart's character named Tish. A liberated woman in the early 20th century. She had many adventures and was an 'old maid' with a nephew for a young protagonist and she had a friend also an 'old maid' that was very timid. They had a home together and Tish was so modern compared to the women I knew in the 1930's that I wanted to grow up and be just like here. I do not remember the names of the books but some of her adventures I will not forget.

There were a million other characters I met in the books I read and often it was the Author who became my "favorite character" and I would read all I could about them. Of course I dreamed of become a good writer. Faith

I have been mulling the question over in my mind as I worked in the garden after church....I realized while I read hundreds of books starting in early childhood it was stories about real people who stayed with me.

Madame Curie sticks in my mind. Her whole life was interesting and her intelligence, her strength when she lost her husband impressed me and kept her in my thoughts. Loving poetry I also admire the poets that wrote the poems I memorized and still recall. Edgar Allen Poe,Whittier, Lord Byron, Robert Service, the Brownings, Kipling and so many whose life was as fascinating as any fictional character.

I loved Nero Wolfe and Archie, I am drawing a blank but have to say I enjoy reading others preferences...anna

Oh my like trying to choose a favorite friend or favorite child - there is just no way - too many - here are a few of my favorites - there are probably others but these come quickly to mind -

Of course the friends from childhood like Heidi and remember rooting for The Little Engine - the adventurous but satisfying Ratty - Mary Poppins - I even had Mary Poppins Opens the Door - Paddington Bear -

Then later there was Manuel in Captain's Courageous and the eye opener that made a difference in my young life, Nathaniel Bowditch.

Count Felix von Luckner the Sea Devil - I loved Christy and Phileas Fog as well as Passeportout - Chingachgook - Maria Von Trapp, read her book long before any song was ever written - and the incorrigible Boon Hogganback along with Ned - Holden Caulfield - Agatha Raison, Miss Read and Miss Marple - Uncle Daniel, bless his heart he got 'em all - Danny and Peachy - Marco Polo - doc in Cannery Row - Renato in Renato's Luck

There are many books I loved but wouldn't have liked sharing a dinner with the characters or trading places with them.

And like Anna you have to love Robert Service - was it the Burial or the Wake of Sam McGee - Oh yes, the Aunt who asks the fireman what they are reading in a Child's Christmas in Wales - Dylan is one of my all time Favorite poets.

Strange-- that we are discussing this topic . Recently while re-reading The Little Friend that will be starting on June 1st, I noted the many books that the author continuously slips into her story. Yesterday I was wondering who her favorites must have been. She speaks at length of Harry Houdini, Joan of Arc, Rbt. Louis Stevenson and volumes of others. I wonder if a preferred story sticks in the recesses of an authors mind just waiting to come out in a future novel ? Join us for our discussion welcome to Little Friend.

a favorite was Dorothy, and Toto, of course, and Scarecrow! And all of the dogs in the Albert Payson Terhune books. And Heidi---I played the part of Heidi in the 3rd grade play and I actually had to kiss (on the cheek) Donald Waymire, who played the Grandfather. Yuck! And Miss Marple, and Lord Peter and Hercule Poirot and---and---and---. I guess my favorite character is always the one I am reading at the time.

mjbaker, I agree, I love the Mapp and Lucia characters and went so far as to join BOTH the Benson societies and to go Rye several times, each time it was an adventure, hahahaha toured the actual house, Mallards, when the Books went to England in 2000, climbed up to the top of the belltower before that, hahahaah LOVE those books and characters, have you seen the second set of videos now out?

The Ghost of Marley is my favorite literary character, in Charles Dickens's A Christmas Carol (which we will read in the Book Club Online in December, don't miss it!) Not many lines but pretty distinctive, hahhaaa love Marley's Ghost.

It's funny, actually, to have to think who are the most memorable characters, another super topic, Nellie!!

ginny

I do have many favorite people that reside in books. I guess I have to include Captain Kirk, Mr Spock, Data, Captain Jean-Luc Picard. etc., etc. The library and book stores are full of books so they are always around even when their TV shows are not. Although today Captain Kirk and his crew are occupying my TV set today!!

I suppose my favorite fictitious character is, and probably always will be, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes. I became interested in the stories when I was about nine or ten years old and this interest still remains with me. I have read many novels about other private-eyes but none held the same mystique and strength of character that Holmes possessed. The mere mention of Holmes and Watson triggers in my mind thoughts of fog enshrouded London with the Hansom carriages clambering down that cities streets and byways

I would be hard put to name my favorite Sherlock Holmes story. There were so many I enjoyed. I suppose the first one that springs to mind for me is the popular "The Hound of the Baskervilles." Sir Arthur's word painting of the gloomy English moors and Baskerville Hall, along with the ever present ominous thought of the Hound, makes this story one of my favorite Holmes and Watson tales.

Bill H

Ginny, oh yes, the ghost of Marley that has made "A Christmas Carol" such a favorite down through the years. I have found a web site where one can read this story on line.

A Christmas Carol

Bill H

Bill, thank you so much! What a super site, is the internet not the most wonderful thing? Amazing, I read A Christmas Carol every year and watch one of the three Scrooge Movies, I like the one with Alistair Sim best as Scrooge, (it has the best Marley of any of them and his Scrooge is the best). I could act the parts (maybe in our Bookfest in 2004 in San Antonio we should each take a part and wing it, it might be hilarious!!! ....IN FACT..... it might be hilarious to do a Virtual Christmas Carol, right here, Online!!

Nellie has brought up the idea of literary characters, how would it be if we each TOOK a character in a play, presented, without looking, a Virtual Christmas Carol, each taking a part, with NO PERSON looking it up! What do you think?? There must be a million parts in that thing. Parts to be assigned first come first served, and can be switched.

hahahaahahaha It might be a riot, can't you see Marley keep telling Scrooge he wears the chain he forged in life and whoever plays the First Ghost barging in at the wrong time and whoever plays the maid coming in too soon, not to mention old Fezziwig, what a hoot, I think we should do it!! ANOTHER idea coming out of Curious Minds!!

Sherlock Holmes, that's my third choice after Mapp and Lucia, he WAS a giant!! Good one!

ginny

Hello everyone! What marvelous responses. You have reminded me of many of my own childhood favourites. And like many of you my latest favourite character lives in the most recent book I'm reading.

But the mention of animals as characters reminded me of The Wild Road by Gabriel King and the wonderful cat characters residing in that book: The Majicou, Tag, Cypher, Sealink, AKA Fitz, Spiky George, Mousebreath, Pertelot Fitzwilliam, and Ragnar Gustaffson, Coeur de Lion. Loves a Dustbin -a fox and the magpie One For Sorrow.

There are so many wonderful characters in books

While doing the washing and puttering around I have been considering my favorite childhood character, from a book that I read over many times and on into my adult hood. And, couldnt wait for my children to be old enough to read it too. it was Tom Sawyer. I just wanted to be him and have his guts and his adventures I think. I finally decided I really had no favorite. How can I choose between the little girl in Heidi who I loved and who was always good, and the adventureous troublesome boy Tom or the "bad guy" Toms friend, Huck Finn who turns out good. Then my mind just wanders all over through Alice's adventures and many many more. Some of our books were not politically correct I know and Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn were two books that there were big arguments about in our schools in California here when my kids were in school in the 50's. Faith

Ferdinand the Bull is one of my all time favorites.

Tom Joad - "The Grapes of Wrath"
Cal Trask & Adam Trask - "East of Eden"
Jim and Della - "The Gift of the Magi"
Holden Caulfield - "The Catcher in the Rye"
The Wingo family (Lila, Henry, Tom and Savannah) - "The Prince of Tides"
Ingrid and Astrid - "White Oleander"
Scarlett O'Hara and Melanie Wilkes - "GWTW"
Nancy Drew - in all of those wonderful old mysteries

Other than Sherlock I have many other favorite characters. One of which is the villainous Mrs. Danvers the house-keeper of Maxmim deWinter's mansion, Manderley. This powerful character gives needed strength to the novel and also gives the second Mrs. de Winter (a lady who’s name the book fails to disclose, according to the B&N book review) a hard time. I'm glad I read in the book review that the book failed to give the second wife a name. I racked my brain trying to think of it.

Bill H

that at one time I was a child and a reading child at that. Yes, I went through the Bobbsey Twins and Tom Swift eras and surely read all about Lassie and Laddie from the writings of Albert Payson Terhune. Then Mom somehow acquired a set of Sinclair Lewis novels, Main Street, Arrowsmith, et al and from that point on it was all adult reading. I guess at that point in time I was very interested in George Babbit to see what made him tick. I guess I liked characters who appeared to be, at least to me, realistic, like Evelyn Waugh's Guy Crouchback, the Englishman whose once wealthy family were now quite reduced but still managed to hang onto some semblance of family name and his club membership. Never a hero as he bumbled his way through life and WWII often dealing with the short end of the stick but with honor.. Waugh had such fun depicting Crouchback's problems that he chronicled them in a trilogy of WWII namely "Men At Arms", "Officers and Gentelmen" and "The End of The Battle". And even though Guy was an Officer (and I wasn't) I was pulling for him to come out on top somewhere along the line. For those of you not acquainted too well about Evelyn Waugh, he also authored the book "Brideshead Revisited" which was made into a TV movie. A good writer. losalbern

I was going to say the wife ( the second Mrs Dewinter ) but could not think of her name...I read that book during summer school vacation when I was about 12...and I also recall the English teacher that fall asking what books we had read over the summer. When I said Rebecca ( that is the name isnt it? My mind is going I think) whatever the title she was surprised as she thought it was an adult book...Mrs Danvers was also a character...and the second wife I guess will always be Joan Fontaine...did the movie have a name for her ? in any case I thought the wife had a lot to put up with and I kept wanting to tell her all the devious things the housekeeper thought...

smiling at the idea..anna

Anna, you are welcome and, yes, the name is Rebecca. I don't believe the movie gave a name either. How unusual.

Bill H

My goodness, I can't began to think of all the wonderful characters in all the books I have read, but Nancy Drew certainly stands out there. How about, "Girl of the Limberlost", " The Little Prince", "Atlas Shrugged", "The Fractured Emerald", " The Little World of Don Camillo" and of course, Bilbo and Frodo. Do now leave out Harry Potter. This is just a start, but what fun.

When I was in the 4th grade I stumbled across a book by James Oliver Curwood. He wrote about the Northwest Territory and the Royal Mounted police. There was always a tiny native girl that fell in love with the Mountie. I read every book I could find by him. The good guy always won and the sled dogs would save the day.

I well remember the Bobbsey twins, Pipi Longstalking and Nancy Drew. But about eight, I began reading biographies as the library had a young readers collection of famous Americans and one of just famous people. These were fascinating to a young child.

Then I discovered mysteries, detectives and trains. There was a whole genre about trains such as the Orient Express. Sam Spade was also an education to a nine year old.

My parents were different in that we were encouraged to read with no boundaries set on what we could read. My entire family could be found reading in the evenings and while not overtly mentioned, it was definitely an encouraged activity after homework was finished and checked over.

The only time it was discouraged was in the summertime when we were sent outdoors after supper until baths and bedtime. Those days to a child were much simpler and seemed so tranquil even if I now know there were problems, even serious ones. It was never transmitted down to the kids like it is now. I do not know if this is a good or a bad thing.

Years ago, I read a book.."The Cheerleader" by Ruth Doan Mcdougal.. I fell in love with and identified very strongly with Snowy, the main character. Lovely book... searched everywhere until I found other things she had written, but never liked anything else of hers. Just the one book.. Silly to remember

Reading all your posts of childhood favorites jogged my mind of some of the favorites I enjoyed reading as a youngster. The book "Treasure Island" took me on an adventurous sailing journey with its two prominent characters Long John Silver and Jim Hawkins. And what a treasure hunting experience it turned out to be. You know, I wouldn't mind reading that book again even at my age. What an adventurous tale that was!

Going back even further in my childhood I so enjoyed reading the Brothers Grimm fairy tales. How about Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs? Oh what fun characters they were. I'm sure all of us loved that story. I believe this book was first published in 1937. To see Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs please use this link

Snow White

Can anyone remember the names of all the dwarfs? Here's a start Sleepy, Doc, Sneezy, etc...

)

Bill H

Bill - SW and the dwarfs were great, but I really had trouble with the witch. She gave me nightmares for years. Of course, seeing the movie when I was two was a little young for a spooky, neurotic kid.

Let's see: Sleepy, Sneezy, Doc, Dopey, Bashful, Happy, Grumpy. Yeah!

My oldest daughter would say Black Beauty was her favorite character as she became a horse herself from about 7 to 10. She gallopped everywhere whacking her self on the rump. When it began she had a broomstick-horse she gallopped on- but soon she became the horse.( ps she is 61 now and certainly entitled to be in this discussion group.) faith

Benjamin, congratulations you named all the dwarfs perfectly.

Bill H

Anne of Green Gables would be my favorite - she set me off an the road to reading when I received the first Anne book from my brother. isak

Just stopping in to say hello. You are all reminding me of characters I have loved while I read the books they were in.

What a fun site and topic, and I should be packing, etc. not on the computer. Maybe, just for a minute.

Carolyn, why do you suppose it is that we go back to the books we read as children to find our favorite characters?

Without a doubt, mine is Caddie Woodlawn, from the title by Carol Ryrie Brink. Caddie was a tomboy in central Wisconsin shortly after the Civil War period, always having adventures, getting into trouble. I was sure her town was just down the road from where I visited summers, but could never find it.

Hi pedln, I was straightening out some piles of books a few days ago and I saw my sister's Caddie Woodlawn books. I never did read them because I was into other types of literature by then. It might be fun to read the books now to see how I like them.

Does anyone have a favourite character from a recently read book?

Pedlin, do you suppose the reason so many favorite characters are from children's books is that we usually read those books over and over? The characters became real people to us, and we lived with them long enough never to forget them. Since then, I find the characters that stay with me are those in the books I re-read, like Dickens and Tolkien. ...Babi

For me it(remembering children's books) is what has happened as I age. I remember vividly my youth but not so much in maturity. I have read voraciously all my life and remember few of the books by title and author. Oh some of the really famous classics that I have re read many times I will remember or an occasional novel will stick in my mind but not with the clarity of remembrance I have of the characters in my childhood books. Maybe because everything was new and a learning experience then. Also, movies made from my favorite books have become intertwined in my mind now and really effect what I remember especially regarding the characters. When I remember reading Rebbecca I remember Joan Fontaine ...When I remember Heathcliff I remember Lawrence Olivier when he was oh so young. I wonder if you others have this problem of mixing the movies with the novels. faith

Yes the movie character sometimes takes over the character I formed from reading the book. I know when I read The Bridges of Madison County I pictured Robert Redford as the "hero" but when I saw it Clint Eastwood was perfect ...although I think I would have fallen for RR easier. LOL...

I can remember later books but fiction doesnt seem to touch me as it used to...books about real people capture my thoughts and it is those I recall. I am reading The Bone Vault and have to say I find it hard because it just doesnt capture my attention.. I keep remembering a writer called Vaughn Wilkins I read a lot of his books when I was really young ...I cant say what characters enchanted me but I know I searched out all of his books then and read everyone. ......anna

what things stick in a persons memory over the years as the result of a casual reading. I don't remember the author or the name of the character but the humor of the situation stays with me. A young New Yorker decided he needed a companion in his very nice apartment and decided that a nice little dog would fit the bill. He purchased one and of course went through the throes of the housebreaking problems which were many and diverse. If that wasn't enough of a trial, he would come home from work to find one of his house slippers chewed beyond recognition or a corner of his nice couch shredded with cotton batting spread around the room. The man was becoming quite upset and very frustrated when he chanced onto a newspaper advertisement about a school for training dogs just a short distance away in upstate New York. The dog was shipped off pronto and every week the man received a report card on how well the mutt was responding to treatment and training. This was always accompanied with the bill for special services rendered such as being deoderized after an encounter with a skunk. The young man was delighted to get such great report cards every week and even though this venture was turning out to be more expensive than ever anticipated, he was willing to forego the extra cost with the expectation of having his lovable little well behaved doggie returned to him and soon! And so the dog returned home complete with his new training diploma and the two immediately demonstrated with pride the little doggie's new prowess by walking on a lease around the neighborhood. The next day the young man hurried home, eager to find his educated doggie and snap on the lease for another proud walk. Imagine his surprise and chagrin to walked into his apartment to find cotton batting scattered all around the room, the leash chewed in two and the smell of fresh doggie no-no coming from somewhere! I have to tell you that the author related this much more cleverly than I have done here. It was just another short story, one of hundreds published freely in the 1930's. An era now disappeared.. losalbern

A practical joke.

While Losalbern's story was amusing, my tale is rather gruesome and like Losalbern it has stayed with me all these years.

In the nineteen fifties, I read a true article in either Life, Time or Newsweek magazine about two hunters. I don't recall their names but for the simplification of this story I will call them "Tom and Jerry." The article went on to say that these two men were deer hunting and they came upon a vast wooded area that they just knew contained deer a plenty. However, the woods was marked private property and permission had to be obtained from the owner for hinting.

Tom told Jerry to stay put and went to the farmer's house to ask permission to hunt on the property. The farmer told Tom he and his buddy could hunt in his woods if they would shoot his old and ailing horse that was hobbling around down by the fence close to the road. Tom told the farmer he would oblige him.

Now Tom figured he would play a little joke on his friend Jerry and didn't tell him what the farmer asked him to do. As the two of them continued down the road that brought them close to the old horse, Tom said to Jerry, "See that horse." "I'm going to kill him." And without further ado Tom lifted his rifle, took aim at the horse and shot and killed the horse. . Then to carry out his little joke that Jerry knew nothing about, Tom faced Jerry and said "Now I'm going to kill you." Tom jokingly started to point his rifle at Jerry. Jerry, thinking his friend had gone mad, turned his rifle on his friend, Tom, and shot and killed him.

As I said this story was reported to be true by the writer. So please be careful of practical jokes. They may not turn out to be funny.

Bill H

Well, that story almost left me speechless! It did remind me of a story, many years ago, in the Saturday Evening Post (it was a serial, and went through several issues) called "No Blade of Grass". It was about how a disease started somewhere in the world that caused grasses and other vegetation to curl up and die. Dead. Kaput. People tried everything to stop it to no avail. Well, think about it. What happens when you don't have grass for animals to eat, or veggies for humans either? The "story" was told by one of the few people left in the world. I never forgot it.

Howzat

The one I remember, but do not remember the name of the short story was printed in Good Housekeeping - the story goes on about an average family with the wife/mother preserving and jam making in a very up to date kitchen in a new home doing all the things we associate with a typical 1950s family when mom stayed home - I do not remember the details but I do remember the punch line - at the very end we learn this family is a black family - boy did my mouth drop as I am sure most white women's mouths dropped at the time, since we had such a skewed idea of how the cultures were so different from one another. The idea of a black family in a lovely new home living the divine life that we all esteemed was so beyond most of our comprehension - that story did more for opening our eyes to our shared commonality than all the political speeches of the times.

Speaking of memorable short stories in Magazines I read one in 1950 (i know because I was pregnant with last baby) in either LHJ or Redbook about a large Italian family nine kids.The mother was a widow now but she was a great mother and neighbor. She was loving and good to all the children and the neighbor hood children could count on good snacks at her house. People were wondering about her as she was always pregnant but her youngest was about ten in this story. The shocker was she was having a baby every year and "selling" it to an adoptive family for her years income.!!!! This way before any of the stories we later had in the news regarding such things. Faith

Now there's an imaginative way to provide for your kids and still stay home with them! But did they have 'surrogate mother' techniques available in the 50's, or was this some far-sighted author a la Jules Verne?

Speaking of Jules Verne, Capt. Nemo was a memorable character, but I can't say he was a particular favorite of mine. So who were some of the characters you loved to hate? ...Babi

Babi I remember being shocked first then delighted at the idea of how to make enough money alone to support a huge family. She certainly did better than Mrs. Wiggs in her Cabbage Patch though she did pretty good at raising family's/ As I remember we had artificial insemination but not surrogate mothers in those days. Faith

I doubt that we were so cavalier in those days to approve of her way of earning money - these were the days of limited opportunity for women who were all supposed to be angle like mothers with no thought except to bring love in the form of jam, cookies and geraniums to her family and not be about the business of earning money - a single mom was unheard of.

Oh and remember all the movies about the trauma of being pregnant or even having sex before marriage - Natalie Wood and what was her name the blond girl Dee something or maybe was it Sandra Dee and the chubby faced tall young man something about the summer.

Ahab scared the heck out of me; I didn't get it till many years into my adult reading and I didn't like most of the Dickens characters either, they made me uncomfortable, too many of them seemed creepy. Jane Austin's stuff for me is so tedious to read as is Eliot (Middlemarch or Mill on the Floss) -

When I was a teen and young adult I preferred adventure. Loved Summerset Maugham, Conrad, Kipling, Tolstoy, Guy de Maupassant, Robert L. Stevenson, Faulkner, Stendhal was hard but I liked the challenge. In the sixth grade I think I read all of James F. Cooper's stuff. Vonnegut, oh and Up from Slavery and Two years before the Mast, oh and Alexander Dumas, Steinbeck, Booth Tarkington, most of Hawthorne especially Evangeline, Theodore Dreiser. Never much for Scott Fitzgerald, but started reading Pearl S. Buck when I was in seventh grade, oh yes, and James Baldwin, P.G.Woodhouse, read a lot of Hemingway but didn't see at the time that he was all that great - he was simply an easy read and Mom belonged to a book club that his books were often the book of the month. Remember Gary Cooper in For Whom the Bells Toil - he was my childhood dream star.

There have been so many more authors that I have only become aquainted with within the past 15 years who I am blown away with their writing. A writer that lets me laugh outloud or cry real tears or feel I need to change the world - writers that bring out real feelings rather than just being caught up in the story are the writers that I remember the most - where as, when I was young I just liked a real yarn or a great exciting adventure.

I must say after seeing the PBS series that recreated a 1903 Manor House my views have been altered. So many of my interpretation of stories in an eighteen and nineteenth century setting seem so romantic. I now realize that life was really a stiff formal order where as when I was reading I superimposed life as we know it today into these stories.

Hmm I wonder if that was why I didn't like Jane Austin - the formality is built into her stories with little room for the adventure I prefer - another that I avoided as a child was Little Women and Little Men - they drove me crazy, Jo was the only one that had any gumption at all and not much at that. Her and her orphange - noble but b-o-r-ing. Never finished either book.

I watched that PBS series on the "manor houses" of England. I was stunned at the work the below stairs people had to do and at such pitiful wages, too. The fact that they weren't "allowed" almost everything you can think of made me so mad. I'm like you. I will never watch any period drama with the same mind set ever again.

Howzat

Barbara, Howzat,

My Daughter sent me the URL for a site from one of those series.

On it if you typed in what your parent did for a job it would tell your what you would have been when you grew up. That was real humbling to say the least. I put in my Fathers job as a day laborer and found out I would have been at the bottom of the heap. No education, no appreticeship, just a part time worker who drank to get through the day. Mother didn't give me much better. My daughter, when she punched in my work came out as a Governess, educated, Spinster, not much prospects in the world.

I will try to get the URL from her and post it in here so you might try it yourself. You will probably come up with much better than I did.

Tiger Tom

My father was a welder and shop foreman for the city for years. My mother was a sectary in the school system. I worked as a hotel manager or in retail as a cashier trainer slash book keeper.

My ancestors were Irish tinkers and horse traders. Think I'd get very far????

Angelface,

I don't know. when I get the URL I will post it here and you can find out for yourself.

Tiger Tom

Hello all! Very interesting posts on the short stories.

BaBi, characters we love to hate -I'll have to think on that one a while to come up with one. I don't think I have characters in books that I dislike or hate. I have ones I hope don't win out in the end because they are working against the protagonist in a book.

I can think of some characters who are 'creepy' and at the same time fascinating: one is Hannibal Lecter from The Silence of the Lambs, and Hannibal; and the other is Dracula from Bram Stoker's Dracula.

Again, interesting posts!

BARBARA, it's just "different strokes..." I read a lot of the same books you did, but I love Austin, and even found Eliot worth the reading of the thick books.

I have remembered another favorite...Captain Horatio Hornblower. I read every one of those books. Did you read those, Barbara? Definitely high adventure.

As for characters one can love to hate, I nominate Simon Legree. I purposely did not read, or see, "Silence of the Lambs". Being fascinating is not sufficient to escape my "thumbs down" for a really nasty character. ...Babi

Barbara.. That was Splendor in the Grass and is one of my all time favorite movies.. I can remember certain scenes in that so clearly.. Oh my, you brought back a favorite memory.

I like books that have a touch of humor in them, even if they may be more sinister. Humor is like salt, no book should be without it for me to want to read it. This includes the ironic, but not the slapstick as physical comedy is just senseless to me.

I also do not read horrific books or see the movies as my memory is very retentive and those scenes might pop into my mind at any time. I have been doing this since I was a child and so do not have the movie education that some have,... but I sleep better at night!

I like some of the villains in books if they rise above the character and make you care one way or another. Some of these books are just cranked out and after one or two, the formula is well known. Some people do like that however.

One of my favorite reads at one time was called the Peach. A slim book by an author I've forgotten. You are well into the book before you discover something vital and shocking about the protagonist that changes the whole tenor of the book. I highly recommend it!

Two fictional characters that have endured in my memory all through the years have been Dr Jekyl and Mr. Hyde. I must admit to having seen the movie before reading the book, however, I'm glad I did. You see, the movie presented me with the faces and personalities of the of the characters I was reading about, and it made the book so much more enjoyable. But like any other movie the book was much better and showed Mr. Hyde a far more evil doer. As I read along I could visualize the characters of Jekyl/Hyde as Spencer Tracey and, of course, Ingrid Bergman as the woman Hyde abused just for the sheer delight of cruelty. I visited our Barnes and Noble and found this:

From the Publisher
"The idea for Robert Louis Stevenson's immortal masterpiece of psychological terror sprang from the deepest recesses of his own subconscious -- a nightmare from which his wife awakened him. He wrote it as a stark yet complex tale whose popularity has endured for more than a century, making the phrase "Jekyll and Hyde" synonymous with man's internal war between good and evil. Brilliantly anticipating modern psychology, Stevenson's story of the kindly scientist who drinks a potion that nightly transforms him into a stunted, evil version of himself is a tale of incomparable suspense and horror."

It was interesting for me to read that this tale sprang from Stevensons's own subconscious. Even more interesting was my thought of how Stevenson could even think of such a novel. As soon as I visited Barnes and Noble my thought was answered..

If any of you read the book or watched the movie, how did you feel about this tale of horror?

Bill H

My great grandparents and my husbands great grandparents lived the genteel life with servants and a regimented lifestyle. Very formal meals with the silver and crystal.(There was not much food on the plates - my mother in the year she lived with her grandparents as a teen was always hungry) My mother however got to attend things like the Governor Generals ball because of the family connections. My great grandparents were very English and formal right up to the time of their deaths when I was a pre schooler. I can remember being in awe of them. I think they began my fascination with reading English period novels as I got older.

I enjoyed the Bronte Novels and Jane Austens novels. My great grandfather had a proper library- my mother got to read all of the novels and passed on her love of them to me. My grandfather still had his courtly manners when I was a child and he insisted on these manners from his grandchildren. He was what a would call a true gentleman but we loved him. He always smelt delightful and I loved cuddling up on his lap as a child and smelling his shaving lotion. He was always immaculately groomed.

Carolyn

I am sure I read the book before seeing the movie and I cant remember which disturbed me more. It has been a long time but I know I dont truly enjoy stories that have really evil characters in them. I have to say it was a gripping story and one I read through..but afterwards I always feel upset and remember it far too long...which is depressing.Mostly because life, newspapers, radio and TV has convinced me even the most evil character in a book cant compare with true evil. And that depresses me so I prefer not to read a book that is described as evil...POLLY-ANNA

I loved sea adventures and read Horatio - there is another series of sea stories that are now one book at a time on sale - my taste has changed so that where I have purchased a few I have not gotten into them - my light reading has been the cozy mysteries with Agatha Raisin, the heroine and strange as it sounds the continuation of Wind in the Willows - picked up The Willows in Winter a few years back while in London and learned the author, William Horwood received special permission from Kenneth Grahame's family to continue the story as long as it was faithful to Grahame - His Willow books are a delight and hardly just for children - the last, The Willows and Beyond is wonderful - all the characters age and must leave the River Bank. They go to a woundful land that is easily a metaphor for either an old age home or that woundful landscape that we all are heading towards.

Interesting how we all reacted to the Manor House - I thought it startling how upstairs there was such isolation that the mistress of the house, don't remember her name, saw if the life continued she would be so distant from her children that she would have little influence and even the intimacy between her and her husband suffered so that she saw he would take a mistress - and then all those hours dressing - reminded me of what it must have been like for Diana and how it must still be a way of life for the Royals.

ANNAFAIR, if you like humor with your mysteries (and I definitely do), have you read Michael Malone's "First Lady"? Several of the characters are both brilliant and witty. Not very realistic, I realize, but it added much enjoyment to an already good yarn.

Pollyanna is another character I enjoyed very much. The "Pollyanna" attitude is a bit galling, but it was something her Father had drilled into her as a way of coping with the frequent disappointments a missionary's child must face. And it certainly beats whining and complaining!...Babi

Hello all! Got busy poking around the garden and didn't have time to stop in yesterday.

Do you have any favourite characters that are larger than life heroes?

Oh Babi, how I disliked PollyAnna when I was 9!! She was so good and I was so awful. I always felt disappointed in my own attitudes like when I felt mean or selfish. Actually my dislike of her was really my disike of these "failings" and therefore probable made me a better child. eh? Sometimes the grownup me would like to go back and pat the child me on the head and tell that child she was going to do ok, and she really wasnt all that awful. It took me years to stop beating myself up for not being always good and cheerful and kind and unselfish as we ought to be.

I had surgery again just Tuesday but I am doing very well. It was a lumpectomy but so far there is no saying whether they want me to have any further treatment. Next week they said I would know. I am glad I can type again. Faith

Larger than Life..Of course.. Scarlet o'Hara.. Oh me,, I would loved to have been her. I just love the way she reached out and seized life..A little misguided, since Ashley was such a wimp.. but still she fought for what she wanted .

Hello all!

I want to thank you all for your great posts! I truly enjoyed reading them.

This is the last day for Favorite Literary Characters, tomorrow a new topic begins.

Again thank you all.

Here's a fun thing to do while you're waiting for the next exciting topic (great work, our Nellie!!)

Like to read and discuss books?
Here's a Poll just for you!
Click here for Poll

GRACIOUS, GINNY! You have been BUSY today! I found that Poll notice everywhere. (I already took it. Honest I did!)

Faith, I had to laugh at your post. You know the character that was really too good to be real? Good old Elsie Dinsmore! Did you read those books? At the time I thought she was just perfect, and aspired to be just like her. Fortunately, common sense and human nature prevailed! ...Babi

NELLIE, thanks for a most enjoyable two weeks of nostalgia. I know more memories will be surfacing in my thoughts for days to come. ...BAbi

haahah how doth the little busy bee.... hahaah we just want to be sure no reader misses it, lots of people don't see SeniorNet's Home Page.

Thank YOU for taking it and for doing that absolutely fabulous Books & Literature CrossWord Puzzle which came in the mail and blew me away!

YOU are very talented, Miss Babi!!

WE are very grateful!

ginny

Thank you, Nellie, for another great Curious Minds. Tomorrow Annafair will be discussing the topic of housing for Seniors.

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

What is in your future? Are you a senior trying to decide where you will live if you can no longer live in your home? Do you already live in some sort of senior home? Do you know where to look for answers? Do you hope to stay in your home? Live with relatives? Move to a senior retirement center?
I know I have been considering all those options so I am anxious to hear what ideas you have. Please check the following sites and let's help each other.

Sources:

http://www.hud.gov/groups/seniors.cfm

http://www.stanford.edu/class/cee45q/2001/business_plan/20010606/problem.html

http://www.extension.umn.edu/info-u/household/BK806.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/realestate/over55/chi-0212010301dec01.story

http://www.courierpostonline.com/community/seniorhousing.html

Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Annafair

Books Main Page | B&N Bookstore

Nellie, thank you for choosing that topic. It was a lot of fun.

Bill H

I did find that poll and I voted. But it does something that MSNTV users need to know - it disconnects us. Some sites do that but it has been a long time since I have been disconnected by hitting the return button at a site.

I just took a poll and landed here! looks interesting. I will check in tomorrow to see more. Being a senior and retired over 15 years am anxious to see what comes next.

Most posters like to know why a topic is chosen, this one because it is of interest to me. I live in the home we bought 32 years ago and hope to remain here. Still I am a practical person and have been looking into to alternatives "just in case" . So I am interested in hearing what everyone else is thinking. Have you made a decision and are you changing your address? Do you live in any type of senior housing and what is your opinion? What would you like if you have to move to some sort of senior facility?

Let us know what you think. Complaints? Suggestions? Looking forward to your ideas and thoughts. anna

I have already made what I hope will be my last move. I got out of a big city in Texas and moved to an area of much smaller population, but still within the state. My new home is within easy reach of two major cities, so that medical help, shopping and entertainment are readily available. There are also assisted living facilities within an easy distance should that route become necessary in the future. My main reason for making this move was that large city life had totally changed the character and complexion of how I had always lived. I had a great "hankering" to find a place where I could get back to people whose attitudes were more like the friendliness and concern for others that were the hallmark of this part of the country when I was growing up. I found 'em and couldn't have made a better choice. Now I'd have to be hog tied to get me back into my former home.

Annafair,

I live in a rural, Pastoral, (working farms in the area and two of them just below where we live) area. Moderate traffic at its height and usually low traffic. Low Crime, clean air, Well Water, no pollution, Rivers, Lakes, Mountains, Ocean, Forests, see Deer in our yard eating my wifes plants (very bad move.) Small town within two miles to the East and a larger one eight miles to the West. Only problems are that it is WET. LOTS of rain, moderate climate (which I like) and too far from the Grand Kids. My wife is agitating to move to Southern California to be near the Grand Kids and for drier and warmer weather.

I HATE Southern California. It has everything that this area does not: Crime, lots of Traffic, Noise, Crowded, not the friendliest people around. Everything I dislike.

We will probably move so as to keep the peace in the family. I am outvoted two to one (Wife and Daughter against me)

I am not in Senior Housing and have no desire to be. We have a nice three story House (which still is not large enough to accomodate all of the things my wife picked up in 30 years of travel around the world)

I hate to think of what we will end up in given the housing costs of Southern California.

Tiger Tom

Thanks for your posts and opinions. One thing I am interested in is a Match Program ..I have heard of this before ( my area does not offer it) but the community helps to match those that have a home to share with those who would prefer to live with someone. It has been successful in the communities where it offered and is very carefully run.

Right now I live in a two story home with additions we went from a 2600 sq ft to a 3500 sq ft and like you and your wife Tiger not enough room for all the "stuff" we accumulated in a 30 year military career. I have given so much away, donated a lot and still have so much stuff so I cant imagine moving...besides it my home is larger than the rest of the family so where would we gather?

One of my church members moved 5 years ago to senior housing. It is apartments and they have meals prepared, a nurse on 24hrs a day and someone to come in once a week to clean. They also offer activities, she is glad in one way but when she stopped caring for her own home she gained weight and became less mobile. When someone asked if I intended to stay put I told them my house was the only thing that really needed me...and I gave up a cleaning service because they always want to leave everything NEAT...and I cant find anything...so I mop, run the vac etc and find I am better for it...everything is near and since this is a peninsula there is a limit to where it can go,,it is perfect for me....and I love it...BUT ...what if? thanks for your posts. You both seem to live in an ideal area.. anna

Well, Anna, I sold my 4-bdr. house about seven years ago, when it became just too much for me to maintain. I wanted to take what I made from the house and buy my next home outright, as I knew my income on retirement would not cover house payments.

I wound up where I would never have expected to be, and am very well satisfied. I bought an 18x60 ft. mobile home in an older, established community. I have established shade trees on an attractive site. (I would never be happy on a bare plot w/o trees!) My home is large enough to be comfortable and small enough to be readily cared for. I have independence, but I can call the park office if a problem arises. (Like kids jumping from the tempting stone wall adjoining my place onto my roof.) My taxes are much lower than if I had bought a house. All in all, I am very contented with my choice. ..Babi

Babi we live in like circumstances. I bought this Mobil when I was still working and I own it. I just pay lot rent and since I bought in an older established park with trees etc. in the city limits the rent is not much. We don't have all the amenities of the newer Seniors only parks but the people are great here. My house is 18 by 60 and Has two bedrooms and two porches, front and back. I am content here and couldn't imagine living in my big house by myself. I am so glad we sold it. I get by nicely on my retirement income and I still take care of my home with occasional help from outside. I do have a person cleaning the yard and on certain times I need window washer etc. I am happy here until I cant be alone and hopefully that will be a long time. Faith

Now there is an option I never considered. I guess I add that to my possibilities but what will I do with all my stuff? You both sound content with your choices and I have had some friends who did the same and have been more than content with the decision...anyone else? anna

As my children were all grown and married when I sold the 4 bedroom home so I gave them alot of my " stuff." They have given some of that to the married grandchildren. One granddaughter has a 50 year old dining table. Eveything finds a good home and mobil homes have more closets and storage than any comparable size houses. I have a 10x10 shed behind the carport that has all my yard and garden stuff stored and has room for a neighbor to store some extras. There is room on the backporch for my washer and dryer plus a large trunk and still has room for a large armoire that I plan to put in there soon. faith

Babi, FaithR,

Do you OWN the gound that your mobile home sits on?

If not, what happens if the owner sells to something Like Walmart and you are given a month or so to find a new lot to put your mobile home on.

Happened a few times in this state. Once in a Mobile Home Park which some people had lived in for 15 - 20 yers. They were given two months by Walmart to get out. Most could not find a new location and had to sell their Mobile Units at fire sale prices. I am not sure where the people found a place to stay.

Tiger Tom

Even with a good idea. Now I had not thought of that Tiger Tom. Has anyone tried a reverse mortgage? I am interested in how that would work. Even if you havent made a change yet would you share some of your ideas and concerns? Thanks,,,anna

My park has to give a one year notice to move if they sell. If someone is asked to move for other reasons(such as flagrant breaking of park rules) it takes them about three to four months to actually get the resident to move.

My mother had a reverse mortgage on her home which gave her an increase in spendable income the last few years of her life. The type she had was not the kind where it automatically pays a certain amount per month. Hers was like an open credit line and she had a check book for it and when she needed repairs and upkeep or other things to maintain her livelyhood she just wrote a check. Then the amount would be added to the balance. The upper limit of that open line was about 80% of the value of her home. She used less than 10% of it. When her Grandson inherited the home he of course had this mortgage to pay back which is OK. It just made the value of the sale of the home that much less or if he decided to keep it he could pay it off. Faith

I live 17 miles from the nearest small town on a 40 acre farm by myself. I love my home as my late husband built it from the ground up, first starting with a barn where he built us a small apartment. This building took the greater part of 20 years and was not completed last year when he died from a second bout of cancer. My son has completed the last finishing of my living room and I am delighted with it. However I have 5 acres to mow and keep straight and it is a chore. I don't want to move but know that in 10 or so years I won't be able to do the yard myself. I am quite healthy and fit at 66, but may not be later. I'm beginning to think about moving to the University town next to the town my son lives in if I can get a good price for my farm. I think I might like to buy a duplex, live in one side and rent out the other. There are also Senior communities in this town. I have treasures, though, that I don't want to get rid of, lots of things my husband brought me from Navy deployments overseas and things that belonged to my grandmother and great-grandmother. Unfortunately, my sons are not really interested in family antiques. I'm sure when I pass on, they will sell everything and split the money. Sue

Springcreek,

Isn't it a shame that when you look around your house you see memories and treasures and when you go, the people who come in will see a dusty, clutter ridden house. It won't be of course, but that is the way they will see it.

Enjoy your treasures and try not to think of what will become of them after you have gone on.

Tiger Tom

Youe place sounds delightful and I can see you love it there. Although my home ( which 30 years ago was in the country ) is convenient and one I love I can see the need to look ahead. One of my sons is interested in buying it and I staying in it...they only have one child who is just 3 so there is enough space to share the house. My daughter in law is good and I love her but I am not sure I have the ability to allow her to redo the house. There are many treasures they both like and when they buy a larger place intend to accept my offer of giving the things to them. At 75 I am still in excellent health and enjoy keeping busy. I am involved with many activities and have plans to try a few things I havent before. I have always been a bit adventurous..dated a boy at 16 who had a motorcycle and we went riding every Sunday afternoon. It was during the war years and he wasnt drafted since he was needed on the farm. The last time I rode was about 6 years ago but decided it was too dangerous. Cars are bad enough. That is beside the point of course. The thing I fear the most is losing my automony..I like doing what I want to do when I want to do it...

I do appreciate the information about the reverse mortgage...I can see if I needed some really expensive repairs that would solve my problems. I have enough monthly income but need to save for the BIG THNGS ...

I would really like to know more about house sharing since that seems possible and I know several widows that did just that and it worked very well indeed.

Since I have a lot of room I could even share with two others. ...anna

Tiger Tom, I do not own the land on which my mobile home sits. If I did, my taxes would be much higher. The park in which I live is quite large and in a small town. It does not seem a practical location of a large store, so hopefully my home is safe from being sold out from under me.

ANNAFAIR, I have been reading a series of books (3) about "The Ladies of Covington.." by Medlicott, which is about three older women who decided to pool their resources and move in together. It seems to be a fairly good depiction of the sort of mutual acceptance and friendship that would make such an arrangement successful. I think you would find the books interesting and enjoyable. ...Babi

We are in the middle of a process of finding a last home that will suit our needs. We now live on the ocean in a large four bedroom that is just more than we want to keep up.. Plus the taxes are truly outrageous. We have recently put a deposit on a townhouse that is directly on a lake in a small town outside of a much larger area. We will be an hour from one son and about 90 minutes from the other. We decided we wanted an end unit, but will still be downsizing. I am now combing out what we want and what we dont.. Then the boys get a shot, then antique dealers and then a garage sale. The final will go to a local charity to sell in their store. I hope to stay in the townhouse unless one or both of us needs assisted living. I know the best laid plans, etc, but we are hoping this will work for us.

I had lived in rentals - apartments or four-plexes, etc. the last several years I worked and not bought a home because I really didn't know if I might be taking care of a head-injured son in a wheelchair after I retired. I just stashed a little money and waited. It turned out, he died a couple of years before I retired, so I left the Seattle area for a drier climate and chose southern Colorado - a depressed town where I was able to buy a house and eight lots for cash. The town still has a hospital and greyhound service. After about five years of getting well settled in, I was (in her own words) stalked on SN by Ms. E. She got me interested enough to visit her out here in northern California, I moved out into a rental to see if we could get along, then I bought a double-wide in a senior park just before we got married.

This isn't my idea of heaven at all, but it makes good sense. Again, I was able to pay cash, so have no big payments to worry about. I sold the home in Colorado on a personal contract to neighbors I knew, so have steady income for the next several years. This place has easy care yards (gravel - yuck.) I am still in my sixties, but with all the arthritis, not having a lot of yard work is smart. We are within a couple of blocks of the senior center, which has a van and also delivers meals to homebound. It seems to me, this location should keep me out of assisted living or worse a few years longer than if I had bought another real house. Also, Ms. E would be able to afford to live here on her own income if I die first, while if I had bought a house, she might well have had to sell - and I will be able to survive here with little or no help if she goes first.

As far as the land being sold from under us, we have passed the only real threat I can see for now - a highway bi-pass, but it is set to go on the other side of the creek a couple of blocks away, so this place shouldn't have much risk. We are across the street from government subsidized senior housing apartments. This tends to make this park be considered when those seniors are considered in making any zoning decisions, etc. (This is a pretty small, unincorporated town, but it is the county seat.) I cover the risk by trying to stay out of debt and keep a little investment money available for the unexpected.

My biggest complaints here are park restrictions, like no clotheslines in our own yards, limits on how many pets, etc. But I do like age restrictions because I don't have any neighbors playing rock on radios while they wash their cars (also taboo unless the car is taken to a specified area.) Of course,I don't know how many years the age restriction will protect me as rock lovers will be retiring very soon - perish the thought.

Babi I will have to check those books out. As it is something I really think about.

Stephanie I too hope it works out for you . At least you have made sensible plans so that is a plus.

Ben dont worry about those rock fans...by the time they move into your area they will be deaf as doormats from listening to that LOUD HARD ROCK music all these years..

Some areas are now planning small enclaves for senior housing instead of large ones. A few years ago one was built about a mile from me..I havent really checked it out but it looks like there may be 20 units..all ground floor for handicaped seniors that can still look after themselves. It was built by the city and is maintained and attractive.

We also have some apartment complexes that are for seniors only. They are rentals and I am not sure what help they may offer if needed. I think since I am doing this discussion I may visit one to see.

Some I visited in the past when a cousin was thinking of moving here..had small, very small apartment type housing, and small separate units ( if you could afford it) they also have an assisted living area and a nursing home in the complex. The chaplain there is a dear lady whom I have known for 25 years. Her mother preferred another place. It offers all the amenities, dining , trips by van, etc. My friend , who is much younger says I would be a star there since I am gregarious by nature. Living in my home gives me options I hesitate to give up though.

Will get back later and thank you for sharing your hopes, your actions and your plans. anna

It is only in the last decade that retirement living has taken off in NZ. Large multistorey blocks of apartments (very attractive) have been built in our town centre- all on the one lot and with nice gardens and all the bells and whistles like gyms libraries, hobby rooms, swimming pools spa's and sauna etc They are not over the top in price but I could never see myself living in one. Its just not me.

There are some stand alone developments each with their own gardens etc but they are quite expensive on the same lot they have apartments, and hospitals for 24 hour care. They have bowling greens pools etc. I don't see myself in one of these either. I think I would like to go straight from here to assisted living. Id like to keep my trees, my birds and my neighbours as long as possible. I like living in an area with children and young people.

I just have to jump in here. Hi Babi, fancy meeting you here! I too am reading the ladies of Covington books. Slowly because of migraines. Interesting reading.

Sue, I have three sons who are not interested in family heirlooms either. My two DILs could care less about heirlooms from our family, sad, but true. I have a few lovely things left to me by a much loved grandmother that I truly cherish. My hope is all in my only grandchild, a granddaughter who is now eleven. There seems not to be sentimental attachments to things now as in the past. Every year my DIL has a garage sale and I go and buy back Christmas gifts that I have given to my granddaughter if they are special things. Tuck them away in hopes of more grandchildren someday.

My husband and I have a large old cottage style house that needs constant upkeep. It has 3/4 of an acre of gardens and we scramble to try to keep up with it all. He has not retired and has no plans of doing so. I just hope we can catch up with delayed maintenance and stay here for awhile.

Paige, maybe it's the times. Sometimes I think my sons don't cherish my things as I do because we rarely were able to visit my grandmother after they were born. My husband was on active duty and we were always far away--and for at least half of his career, he didn't make enough money for far trips. His parents didn't keep family things and therefore left none. I have no granddaughters, only 3 grandsons. So far the little ones aren't old enough and the teenager only seems interested in video games. Sue

It was very hard to cull through all the acquisitions of 30 years at one address. After it was done - been given away, thrown away and donated - I felt wonderfully free. I read once that our stuff comes to own us eventually and not the other way around, and that the happy person is the one who is least possessed by possessions. I used to doubt that was true, but the last four years have made me a believer. Along these same lines, I think hard before buying anything to add to those things I couldn't part with and brought with me to this new, uncluttered life.

Well Annafair, I am planning on keeping my home in Michigan but intend to visit Florida this winter and maybe settle in with my neibors, friends in a trailor park for the winter, Who knows for sure but am sure going to check it out. Seems I can buy a trailer for just 3 or 4 thousand dollars and just pay for the rental of the property it sets on. It would be nice to be around my good neibors in Michigan and the same ones in Florida. They tell me the trailers are Very nice and I belive them so off I go.

I am so glad that you are having, leading this discussion. I will be 70 this year so must look for a warmer climate for the winter as Michigan is Just to cold for me any more. It used to be I could not stand the heat but now cannot stand the cold.

ANNAFAIR - Deaf rock fans are the ones who worry me most. Think how loud they will have their stereos in order to hear them.

Seriously, any community for older folks will soon be getting an influx of baby boomers. If we live a few more years, as I plan to, we will be surrounded by them - in our housing as well as our senior centers. What a thought - having people my kids age for company. Instead of patriotic John Phillip Sousa fans, I will live with anti-war rock fans. The numbers tell me I will be the odd man out.

When my husband took an early retirement due to poor health, we bought 40 acres of land with a three-bedroom house and a trout stream out in the boondocks. It was idyllic, until we were unable to participate any more in the winter sports and activities, and depending on the hit-and-miss ambulance service was a nightmare, to say nothing of the glare ice on the roads every winter. When my husband broke his hip and then later landed in a nursing home, I had to sell the house and move into the cities to be near him. His condition worsened, and he remained in a wheel chair, a patient in the nursing home for over three years. I don't regret it, because they were very good to him.

Of course, we had to spend down all the assets we had, which took about two and a half years, and when my husband died, we had not much left in our finances. I had to find a less expensive apartment and a friend told me about the building I am in now. It's a private apartment building for Seniors but some of the rents are subsidized by the HUD people, and I am one of them. In my estimation, this is one of the most rewarding pieces of legislature that the Congress passed, back when they were still thinking of the little guy. It's a lovely building, in a comparatively safe neighborhood, with private landlord, and my rent each month is geared to 30% of my income, which is a big help these days.

Now there is talk that the powers that be will withdraw the financing for these subsidized rentals, which means this building will be strictly market rent or better, and which is way out of my reach. The other tenants here, and I,are in despair over this news, it means that some 85 ad 90+ year old men and women wlll have to pack and go on the waiting list for public housing or else movein with relatives who don't really want them. Many of the elderly tenants are in tears when considering alternatives. Who needs this kind of insecurity at that age?

Lorrie

Lorrie - seems to be a thing that right wing administrations do when they come into power-either sell elder housing or put it up to market rent. There was our city mayor who is to the right- he managed to get the council to agree to sell the pensioner housing - there was a hue and cry and much gnashing of teeth. The Govt (centre left) then stepped in and bought the housing. The housing is income related since the Helen Clarke Govt came in. The administration before her had put all State owned housing up to market rental or sold it all off. Now this admin is having to build more low income housing. Two clashing philosophies and a whole lot of wasted money by the actions of the previous admin. I do hope something can be done for you. You are not the first person in SN who has been placed in such a dreadful position Marie70 still has nowhere to go and is just living month by month on the goodwill of the property managers who administer her block.

Carolyn

Good lord it comes close to home when you read it happening to your friends. So far the HUD program appears to be safe out here. I do not have it at this time but if I wished I could apply though there is a long waiting list for Senior Housing. I am blessed to have this Mobile home as long as the owners/property managers can keep the rents down. Of course every-time we get 10.00 more SS they raise our rent 10.00 a month on the lot. Still it is about what people pay for small homes in taxes around the city. I do not know what tax situation is out in the County.

I like the idea of shared housing. If I had kept the 4 bdrm home I would have liked to put it to use with sharing and even thought of that but it still is good I did not as it would take a good 900.00 a month in that area for taxes and insurances today. of course that would be OK with 3 single ladies sharing. If each paid 350.00 a month it would give the expenses and a bit to put away for upkeep and repairs. I was thinking about it in regard to a sister who has a large home but as she is married, she wouldn't be interested in this solution at this time. My daughter is always discussing buying a larger place while she is working and going for sharing after retirement. Faith

Gosh Faith I am so lucky. It costs only $400 a month for me to run my small three bedroom home with all expenses - local body and regional taxes and levies and insurances this includes paying for the water we use. The maintenance and all other costs in our retirement villages if you own your own unit in the village is about the same. We are so very lucky. My $400 also includes the lawn mowing contractor. No wonder so many of us can stay in our own homes for as long as possible. Now if you don't own your own home the rents are very high in the private market and life does become very difficult and some do have to share.

Carolyn

And also, Faith, there is the problem of finding people to share with who are compatible, reasonably easy to live with, AND reliable. What is someone moves in and then doesn't keep up their end financially? I think it would be best to know the people first, and then consider the possibility of a shared housing arrangement. ...Babi

To be honest Babi I doubt whether I could share my home with anyone. I get up and down in the night and clatter round in the kitchen. No one would be able to put up with me!

Carolyn

All,

I hate the thought of living at the sufferage of others. I don't ever want to move in with my Daughter or to have to move in with her. Being a mostly unwanted guest who has to stay out of the way most of the time. I have seen it. Don't want any pat of it. So too with shared housing, too much conflict even with the most commpatible people sharing.

Tiger Tom

Many of us have talked about the possibility of shared housing, but we all agree it would only work if we each had our own bathroom, and that certainly isn't feasible. Also, Carolyn, I'm like you. I am sometimes up two or three times a night, plus "clattering" in the kitchen like you do. All we can do at the present is take each day as it comes, and breathe a sigh of relief each year when the lease is renewed. So far so good, but who knows what's next? Like your city, Caroline, I'm afraid of what this new administration will do next.

Lorrie

I have read some information in New England about shared housing which is specifically designed to be share. Private baths for each bedroom, shared living rooms and kitchens..They are run communally in that you each take a turn at cooking and all of the household chores as well as keeping your own area clean. Strikes me as an interesting solution, although I am such a hermit am not sure I could work it out. My mother in law went into a large development.. First in an independent apartment ( you could cook or go to the dining hall and were charged only for the meals you ate), then a single room( lunch and dinner were in the dining room and you pay a flat fee), then assisted living and there was a nursing home attached. She had to be put into a different sort of assisted living since she had Alzheimers and needed a locked unit to keep her from wandering, but the original place was very nice.. All sorts of clubs, a van to take you everywhere, etc.

We have all grades of these Senior Housing places in our County. The ones I have visited are mostly middle class and very small apartments for independent living are about 600.00 amonth no meals and have few amenities except the transportation. The next leval of independent living but with meals is still a large chunck of income. The Assisted living arragements and all meals but private and semi private quarters are pretty expensive and my friend who lives in one such place has only about 25.00 a month of her social security for disposable income after her living costs are paid. They do have nice recreation rooms and interesting things going on .

I also am like all others posting above and would not want to share living arrangements. It is difficult for me to Tigar Tom to even be with family very many days. When my out of town kids come they get a motel as my house now only has 1 twin bed and they dont want to sleep on the floor hahahahah.

When I was a child I saw my great grandmother and her youngest son make a home together after she was in her eighties. They were ok together and in her 92 year he had to move so he hired a lady to live in with her .

Of course there were few SNF maybe none in 1936. Even in 1940's Alzheimer and Senile Dememntia patients went to state hospitals here. It must have been mid 70's when society really started paying attention to Senior living arrangements when the party couldnt be alone anymore. My children are already well aware of the choices and are making their plans early as I did. As I said I made this arrangement while I was still working and will stay here till it is impossible anymore and hopefully I will pop off fast then it will be my last home. Faith

All,

I dread the thought of a Nusing Home. Much as I love life and everything in it. I hope someone has the kindness to knock me in the head before I am shoved into a Nursing Home.

Tiger Tom

While you were posting I was sitting in front of blank computer. The thunderstorm that was promised for today arrived early and so my computer was turned off.

In the areas where people are matched a city counselor helps to make the arrangements and contracts are written to protect both parties. I have known several people I would have loved to share my home, and except for the fact they lived on the other side of the country they would have moved here with me. They have some minor health problems and living with me would have helped their children but they also hated to leave. NOW if I could find someone as compatible here I would be happy about it.

I am so sorry to hear some of you are in danger of being uprooted. There is a link to HUD at the top of the page. I gave it a quick read when I was investigating this subject. Next time here I will have read it more thorougly.

I know the really lovely placs locally are quite dear in cost. I suppose if I sold my home I could afford it but I love being in a neighbor hood and seeing and relating to people of all ages. While I love seniors ( I THINK WE ARE GREAT) I want to be with a mixed aged group. My hope is I can stay here......as I told one realtor who asked if I was thinking of selling ..and did I say this before? Sometimes I forget...a friend calls that shortimers disease...Quote "Honey when I leave here I am going directly to Heaven" Well I hope that is true.

Love all of your ideas and input...Ginger let us know how your visit to Florida comes out that is an option I never considered. I did live in Florida for two years and hated the summers and enjoyed about 4 months of the winter. Plus the smell of the orange blossoms in Feb-Mar was a tremendous bonus...thanks again...anna

Annafair
I will let you know abought my winter in Florida as I did not like Florida at one time either but now with my friends (neibors) being there for the winter and here in the summer I just might like it I think. At least it is worth a try for me at my age as last winter was just to cold for me.

GINGER, if you are just looking for a warmer climate, you might want to consider Arizona. I have an aunt who opted to live there and she loves it. And it's certainly far different from Florida. Then there's always New Mexico. I would recommend avoiding the Gulf Coast area. The heat and humidity are really rough on someone accustomed to colder climates. ...Babi

It has been so very interesting reading all the posts and the various circumstances that SN people live with. My heart goes out to those who find themselves in dire housing straits through no fault of their own. May God provide! Even though Tiger Tom has no use for my Southern California area as a homesite, and I can understand that Tom, my wife and I are quite content to live here even though we are currently going through the "June Gloom" days of overcast skies along the coast. We don't get too involved with the annoyances of heavy, heavy traffic and the need to travel distances for the larger shopping malls, our own area is like an oasis, quiet and sedate, almost mid-western and reasonably neighborly. We consider ourselves lucky. (My wife would correct that statement and say that we are blessed and she is no doubt correct). This past week we managed to squeeze five days into a little trip up the coast and the hardest part of it is getting out of the greater Los Angeles area and likewise getting back into it. Miserable traffic and it seems to get worse with every Rose Bowl telecast back to those areas covered with snow and icy roads! Another 200,000 folks turn to each other and decide to move out here! At least thats the way it seems. So Tom, don't move, just fly out here and motel it for a week or two! You might even get to like Southern Cal a little! losalbern

Losalbern,

Where do you live? In Los Angeles? In Los Angeles County? Orange County?

My Daughter lives in Orange County. Can't remember the name of the area that she lives in.

Wife is considering Hemet or an area near there.

Of course, all sorts of things figure in: Selling our Present House, hopefully getting enough for a decent down payment on a house in California, keeping monthly payments down to a level that we can afford. What to do with all of the things we have. Would by necessity have to move in to a considerably smaller house than we live in now. Wife is determined. She is going down to Southern California in the fall to look around. I have been cut out of it.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom - I have a very dear cyber pal who lives in Bethel Island I think thats an hour from San Francisco. I have heard her talk about it. She loves it there and it does not seem to get super cold in winter. Its a lovely old fashioned place and the local gossip place is the Post Office. My friend says everyone gets very excited when she gets a parcel from me at Christmas - they don't know much about NZ and the first parcel I sent to her was the first they had from NZ since any of the workers there had been PO Employees. Would somewhere like that suit and be closer to your daughter?

Carolyn

To make a long story short, I sold my 5 BR home to my son after my husband passed away, after a few years he sold it and had a new home built with an in-law suite for me, and moved me from where I had lived for the last 40 yrs and raised my family,was more of a shock than I thought it would be, It's a lovely place and we have wonderful neighbors, but it's an adjustment, I have good days and I have some bad, I don't know that I would make the move if I had to do it over again, My health and financial issues were a factor, in what I decided. My daughter would put me in a nursing home in a heart beat, My son would not, and that's why I,m with him and his family, But even tho it's seperate living areas, it's not always easy,

You share your ideas, your moves, your hesitancy, your thoughts and suggestions. When I try to tell people who hesitate to come to seniornet how wonderful everyone is here there are usually doubtful looks...and shakes of heads. I wish they could read your posts.

I can understand why everyone would like to live near family especially grandchildren. I watched my mother in the role of grandmother. Even though she practically raised two of them when the terrible teens came they thought she was so out of date, and except for the parents putting thier foot down I fear she would have been ignored by them.

It worked out best when she traveled and left them once in awhile ..it made them appreciate her. That is why I want to stay where I am planted and bloom. My grandchildren are only 9 -3 and there are six of them. Right now they think Nana is great ...but I wont be surprised when they are into dating etc I wont be needed as much or appreciated quite as much either.

I think the suggestion to investigate a place before moving is great if you can afford that. A recent guest would like to move to Virginia she needs to move where it is warmer. She is on SSI and Medicaid..and wonders if she can transfer those benefits to here. I would welcome her but her "baby" is a wonderful German Shepard .who is still young and into everything. So that is a problem too.

Back to thinking about this and listening to your expierences and suggestions..thanks ..anna

When in my youth I became a nurses aid and worked several years off and on in nursing homes after working in hospitals(2) anyway when my mom fell and broke her hip my hubby and I being retired already moved from our home into their larger one, and started full time care for them. Mom had already been diagonsed with lung cancer(never smoked in her life) and dad had alzheimers, so we were coming over to see that they had regular meals and doing the housework, laundry etc. This seemed to be the thing to do since I had the training and my hubby loved my parents too and my sibs were tickled we were here to take over, "After all you are our eldest sister and you have the training"" Who better to take over and mom knows you can do it" Yes we where with them right to the very end and bless my sibs they have been the very best to us and folks I feel good Mom and Dad had the best we could give them and we hired help to spell us and took it out of the folks monies as needed. They have died, Mom in April 2000 and Dad last year May 2002. We still live in their house while we ready our house to move in to it again and this week we are doing just that. Nice talking to you as this my lifeline to the world since I was cooped up for 5 years or so I have lost contact with any one we were tied ( most have passed on).

Babi

I do apprieciate your concern I was in Arizona within the last two years at a gathering of S.N and certainly enjoyed my self with the S/Neters but this Florida thing is with Long time neibors (friends) that I know Very well and so I hope to like it there. I will only spend a few months in Florida, Maybe two or three to start with to see what happens and if I like it or not, then if I do not like it I have the Whole Wide World to check out. Smile but I trully Mean it as I Must get out of these cold winters in Michigan. (Michigan for summer) who knows about winters. Norm Tock, Andy, Louise Hello anyone out there? Smile. They are all S/Ners so along with my neibors I should have a few people to get together with. UH HUH.

I do understand where you are coming from as my Mother had a stroke in 95 and I moved into her house to take care of her. Well after two years my next door neibors said that the house was Not lived in that it would deterorate so I let it go but just before the new owners and before I got my check she passed on to a better place. Such is Life and we much adjust to enjoy living but it does take time.

And your heartache...you and your husband offered such love to your parents and I know it was appreciated. Here's hoping your return to your own home goes well and you have many happy years there.

Come back as often as needed. There are so many discussions available here on seniornet. If I had time I would visit them all...Check them out though I know all are worth while and will enrich your life. anna

You could always try Virginia...we have mountains, and valleys and the ocean. We have winter but most years they are not too bad...I have neighbors who left the NORTH and moved here. They like the seasons since we have them all. Summers are warm sometimes even hot and the winters are winters but pansies bloom all winter and spring arrives early.. I KNOW, I know I should be working for the Chamber of Commerce or the Visitors Center...Still this is the place I will stay ..just where in it remains to be decided. And housing is always a problem ...decisions , decisions ...and you are right ...if Florida doesnt work you have the world to choose from...anna

Thanks Anna, I used to think and almost bought a house in International Falls, Minnesota (the ice berg of the nation ) to be with my relation and the peacefull, Beautiful landscape that they have but am so glad that I did not as Michigan is cold enough. Smile.

I hope to keep my home in Michigan and just go to Florida for the worst of the winter.

Tiger Tom asked the question as to where I live in Southern California. Yes, I do live in Orange County as you surmised,Tom, just across the county line from Long Beach, which is in Los Angeles County. My mailing address is Los Alamitos, (from whence I derive the losal for losalbern). Orange County made headlines a few years ago when our County Treasurer forced us into bankruptcy after taking a financial beating from investing into Merrill Lynch's derivatives that went sour, really sour! Most of us Californians keep our fingers crossed as to whether or not the whole State can survive financially after our Governor put us into a huge financial debt last year playing footsie with energy firms who were holding us up, with not so much as a gun, in selling to our great State vastly overpriced electrical power. We do have trouble with our elected officials! Tom, even though you may think your out of the decision making process, take comfort in the fact that when your Mrs. sees the prices of real estate in this locale, where everything is unbelievably and unreasonably, vastly overpriced, she may decide it is better not to buy here but instead travel back and forth for visits. If I had my druthers, I would live in a smaller town largely because of the traffic density here. As it is, we don't get around this huge megalopolis very often and are content to do things locally. In spite of all of this seemly negativism, I love Southern California! As my next door neighbor used to say, "if you'r not living in Southern California, you are a victim of circumstance!" (Listen, I can hear all the boos and hisses from all you nice folks!) LOL !! losalbern

Losalbern,

My wife is determined and that is that. She doesn't always take in to account reality. She wants to be near the Grandkids and that is as far as she gets.

I still do NOT like the idea of Southern California, period. But doubt if I will have much say in the matter. Her way or the highway.

Tiger Tom

Tom don't go into debt for this move. If you own your present home dig your toes in. If anything happened to you would your wife be able to afford repayments on a new home by herself? I think its crazy to take on more debt as a senior. You would be better to buy a small camper ( not a great big expensive thing) and go down to stay for a couple of months at a time. Maybe put a caravan on your daughters property so you could be self contained for a couple of months. I could understand the urgency to move near your daughter if your wife was on her own. Maybe someone needs to sit down and put on paper the financial realities of this proposed move.

Carolyn

I'm with Carolyn.

Howzat

Kiwi, Howzat,

Dealing with a stubborn and hardheaded German here. As I say, reality sometimes gets left in the dust.

I could show her figures till the comes come home and it wouldn't make a dent.

Tiger Tom

For all who plan on moving to a new locale, it would serve one well to internet search the real estate pages of one of the better newspapers that services the area of the planned move. For instance, I live in a suburb of Pittsburgh, PA and houses, etc, in Western Pennsylvania are very reasonable in price when compared with housing in some parts of the nation. The houses in my neighborhood sell between $150,000 to $175,000. However, my neighbor has a son living in Southern Cal. and he explained to his father that our houses would easily sell for OVER $400,000 or more in his area. Also please consider that real estate taxes and school taxes may be overwhelming.

Tom, perhaps Losalbern could give you the name of a few good Los Angles newspapers so you could view on line the real estate pages of the papers. Perhaps--is it your daughter--could give you some idea of the property taxes in the area.

Bill H

What an interesting discussion. It's been fun reading about everyone's solution. Lorrie, I hope yours gets resolved in your favor. Carolyn, your advice to Tom is good, about not getting into more debt if he moves.

I'm in my own home in a small mid-west city and my kids are in large cities on East and West coasts where the housing costs are, to me, just mind boggling. I'd like to spend more time with my family, but for now content myself with visits a couple of times a year. Besides, they're (4) spread out all over. Also, I'm involved in lots of things here, and really enjoy my current lifestyle.

I'd consider Sr. Housing, but here they are church-related "buy-ins." You or your heirs don't get anything back. I'd hate to buy-in, for if it ever became feasible to move near a child, my funds would be tied up.

You are so thoughtful sharing your own expierences and useful advice.

Tuesday I was at a local Senior Center and asked everyone there what thier suggestions were. Most are senior ladies and they all said stay in your own home if possible. We have already decided whatever we do it is fraught with unexpected problems.

It is interesting to note I have several friends who were Navy stationed in California ...when they retired ,having family and friends here in Va they decided to move here. The biggest factor was the cost of housing here. They purchased a spacious three story home here with a 3 car garage in a beautiful neighborhood for just a little more than the smaller home they sold in California. I AM NOT TRYING TO DOWNGRADE CALIFORNIA, love you Californians!..but I have friends and relatives there and complaints about the cost of everything is a repeated refrain in their mail to me.

With the cost of housing going out of sight...it becomes harder to decide what to do as a senior thinking ahead. anna

Tom - I agree with Losalbern! I'm a native Californian, and have lived my entire life in what WAS the great state of California.. Now it is a sad imitation of what it used to be.

To say that the Los Angeles/Orange County area is crowded, is the understatement of all time! The freeways are massive, stop and go, moving parking lots, and the restaurants and shopping areas are overcrowded and sometimes inaccessible. The smog will make you sick, unless you are fortunate enough to live near the coast. The housing prices are completely out of range of most people. The schools are terrible, because they are overcrowded, and public transportation is almost nonexistent. The attractions like Disneyland, are so packed with people, that you wait at LEAST an hour for each ride. Most people who live in Southern Cal, are like Losalbern - they stay in their own little area, and rarely venture beyond certain boundaries. It isn't worth the hassle!

I live in Northern Cal, now, but it is not any better up here. Traffic is not quite so bad, but housing is even more expensive. I drive to Los Angeles, about once a month, because my daughter lives there. There is no describing what it is like to drive around in, and stay in, the area of Hollywood! Mere words do not suffice! As the old saying goes - you gotta be there to believe it!

Still - people keep coming and coming and coming! There is just no stopping the influx of the masses! They come from all over the US, and all over the world, plus millions pouring across the border from Mexico. There just isn't any room here anymore, in this once, beautiful state! I often wonder what it will be like in another 20 years?

Bill, your suggestion regarding this area's newspapers for Tom to peruse is a good one. Here are two that he can view online; Los Angeles Times http://latimes.com Orange County Register http://ocregister.com

Both are reputable. I have been reading the Times for over 50 years and one of my sons works on the Register. Anna, I would never fault you as one to put down Southern California. Most of our problem with this area is that it is overcrowded with people who want to live here. There are simply too many people here and more wanting to come every day. Legal immigrants hit the shore and immediately head for Sunny California. We have large segments who came from Viet Nam, Cambodia, Russia, China (when they can get away), Mexico, India, Taiwan, and Korea to name a few. On top of this are the illegals from Mexico and Central America who flood our State looking for a better life and it is hard to blame them for that. But all of these people require housing and that makes scarcities and drives up the cost of home buying dramatically. Homes are in a seller's market. Many times people overbid the asking price of a house for sale in order to get the home they are looking for. It is just a fact of life that too many people want to live here, like it or not. Our freeways were not engineered to handle the volume of traffic seen every day and every day and every day. I think road rage initiated here by people who couldn't handle bogged down traffic jams. Now that is the bad part of living in Southern California. But think of this. A majority of people are willing to put up with this kind a life style limitations because they love living here. I"m one of them! losalbern

Losalbern, thank you for those two links. I researched some of the real estate listings in there classifieds and for the most part I found them all rather expensive. This is a good idea for anyone planning a move to another state.

A little more on property taxes.

A married couple I have known for many years lived in an upscale township not far from my own twp. They lived most of their married life there. The husband was not in too good of health so after he retired they decided to get away from western PA's winter weather. They sold there home in Mt. Lebanon, PA and moved to a warmer climate in Florida just a little south of Tampa. He died not long after they made their move. She didn't care for Florida and told me she was moving back to Mt. Lebanon, PA. where all her friends still lived.

After they moved to Florida and before she moved back, Allegheny County in PA revamped they way property tax assessments were to be done. Believe me there was quite a furor over this with all county municipalities holding hearings but to no avail. Consequently assessments in our county took off as though tied to a space shuttle and property and school taxes went over the moon, especially the school tax., with both Mt Lebanon and Upper St.Clair twp (another very upscale neighborhood) residents being hit very hard These two townships have excellent school districts and they hire the best of teachers and pay them well and this explains there high school taxes.

When Mrs. A told me of her proposed move back to Mt. Lebanon, I wrote and explained Allegheny County's new method of property assessments that resulted in big property taxes, but she sold her house in Florida and bought a lovely ranch type house in Mt. Lebanon. Mrs. A paid for the house with the money she got from the sale of the property in Florida. Well, to make a long story short she stayed one year and moved because of the high taxes. Mrs. A moved to Washington County, PA, a neighboring county, where sanity still prevails concerning property assessments and the resulting low taxes. However Washington County residents enjoy all the amenities of Allegheny County: Such as medical centers and hospitals, live theaters, professional sports stadiums, etc.

I write this to say, if you are going to make a move, please check on the municipalities property tax codes. You may be in for a shock if you don't.

Bill H

Hi Ginger. I haven't visited Seniornet as I was doing some MSNTV stuff. This isn't the place for it, but I have found that there are sites that have linkable music as well as ready made signatures for e-mails.

I see you're thinking about coming to Florida. To me that would be wonderful then maybe I would have a chance to meet you. It does get pretty hot here in Miami. If I were rich and could do just as I would like, I would love to live somewhere in the north for the summer and in Florida in the winter.

All,

You are preaching to the choir.

I have investigated Real Eastate sites in Southern California a good deal. From some of them one would get the idea that housing costs in Southern California are reasonable. Just the Snake Oil to draw in the suckers.

When I compare what we have and the only drawback to this area (Rain and cool most of the year) to all that is bad about Southern California it is no contest with me.

As I say, my wife is determined to go to a warmer, drier, climate and nearer to the Grandkids. I guess the only thing that is going to convince her is to go down to California, look and around, see the prices and do the math.

Tiger Tom

Louise, I do think my going to Florida in the winter and Michigan in the summer will be good for me and I would very much like to meet you in person. Our S/N sister Alf lives in Florida so we could have a mimi gathering or one one no matter. I will be in Dade City to the best of my knowledge. Will check the map to see how far you are from there and maybe we can meet in the middle some how? When I get on the Webtv will email you today, OK.

Ginger, that does sound exciting and something I would like to do.

We shall meet finaly. Whee. I intend to bring my Webtv with me. If Not one of my neibors down there has a webtv that I know they will let me use to email you.

I believe I would do some serious research on water, who has it, how much of it is there, what it costs, and the projected impact of population on the water available during the life span I might reasonably have left.

Tiger Tom, you could just rent something near the grandkids. Try it for a year and see. Other than this fixation on moving to be near the grandkids, does your wife's thinking seem okay to you? I can see how one would get tired of wet and damp. But I assume it's dry inside your house? You have central air conditioning? And you keep the curtains open during the day to draw in all the light possible? Is your wife involved in anything other than taking care of you and pining for the grandkids?

Howzat

It was a good time for seniornet to go down since we had a lot of thunderstorms and threats of same so my computer was off for most of the down time.

I think that is good advice to check through newspapers on line. I use the LATimes crossword puzzle ..and often just nosy around the rest of the paper including some ads etc. If I were thinking of moving I would check the local newspapers for housing but also for local events etc and medical care. Being in the military we moved a lot and it was always a hassle. Now it would be a really big production and if I move from this house I want to be VERY careful it is a wise move.

Will return later after everyone finds out we are back and in business...Thanks again for all of your input. anna

Howzat,

wife works at Walmart in the Graden Center. She Loves Gardening so this is the ideal job for her. She is very popular there and the store would hate to lose her as just about everyone who walks in with a question about Gardening asks for her.

Takes care of me? No.

She wants to watch the Grandkis grow up. The Grand Daughter has a syndrome which leaves her mentaly retarted and her grow is stunted.Sshe is just walking after five years and does not yet talk. So, my wife wants to be near her. Daughter wants to return to work. Grandson will start school soon. Daughter wants us near so she has a cheap day care center. Wife thinks that is grand. I am out of the loop.

Tiger Tom

TOM - I agree with the rent for a year solution. If the daughter can make enough working to pay for daycare for the granddaughter, she should pay your wife for baby-sitting to help with the cost of you folks being out there for a year while you keep your current home. If she can't make enough to pay for care, she should stay home and raise the kid herself. My wife loudly concurs. She came out here to northern California a few years ago to be with her son's family - leaving behind a very cheap living situation in Arkansas. Within a few months of her moving in, the DIL went back to work and used her as a free baby-sitter for their two kids. It wasn't long before she announced they were expecting another. Ms. E found a way to move into town (me) and left them to raise their own family. We are close enough for emergencies, but the DIL makes enough to pay for childcare and has managed pretty well.

A woman can have a lot of emotional needs met by feeling needed, helping her kids, etc., but it is very difficult to take on such responsibilities after retirement age. That is probably why women don't have any more babies after they are this age. But you may have to move out west for awhile to let her learn the hard way - or stay home yourself and let her go out on her own for awhile. Of course, that would be lonesome for you, but it would make financial sense.

Gosh, Tiger Tom, it just now occurred to me that this is the sort of situation that can rip families apart. Whew. You've received a lot of sound advice, and lots of alternative stuff to consider, but you say you are "out of the loop". That means you have already decided to go along with whatever your wife decides? It also means that you are willing to be silent about being unhappy--if indeed you turn out to be--with the move and some or all of the consequent changes in your life as a retiree?

Well, okay. But you might want to consider that young people can change their minds. They might decide to move elsewhere because of a new job opportunity or whatever. That leaves you and the Mrs buying and selling, staying and moving, dependent on whatever the kids decide to do. In that case, I strongly recommend you look into buying a large RV--30 feet or so (check the insurance costs before you decide on length). Very nice RV parks are everywhere nowadays.

Since your wife will quit her job, anyway, to move, you might want to consider having the children, or at least the grand daughter, come live with you for a while. Parents of disabled children, especially stay at home mothers, can "burn out" and need a "rest".

Good luck, Howzat

When considering housing for seniors I really never thought of being a help in raising grandchildren. I am blessed in many ways. My children live near and so do the spouses families. All who help in need but none as a full time job. The grandchildren have stayed in very good day care facilities. Which means when any of the seniors are called on to take care it is a joy to do so.

I think there is a lot of good advice here. One of my friends moved to where their only child, a daughter lived to help care for the grandchildren. After several years the husband was promoted in the company ..and the daughter and family moved to a new location some distance away. My friend could not move ..too much work and too much money. They had become so involved with the family they made no friends of their own and were now really on thier own.

And there are always open or secret problems with raising other peoples ( especially family) children...takes a lot of thought to make any move as a senior and like everyone seems to agree a lot of research....thanks again for all the helpful suggestions. anna

I guess I never stopped to realize how many problems exist in the arena of Senior Housing. Tom received a lot of input from people eager to at least try to help resolve his dilemma in the best way possible. The world today seems to get more complex all the time and so many of the problems facing people, especially we older folks, are thrown into our awareness every day on page 1 of every newspaper in America. Even so, there was good advice given on this posting site that I will adhere to wherever necessary. We have been very fortunate the past few years in that three of our four adult children and their families have moved CLOSER to where we are. And Tom, one last thought. I know from experience that most of the time, the maternal instincts are multiplied geometrically when the grandkids enter the picture and there is not a heck of a lot of rational thinking or discussion on the part of any male to modify it in any way. losalbern

Ben, Howzat,

I agree, Daughter should stay home and take care of the kids. The guy she is with wants her to go back to work. I would love to see her leave him but she cannot. The Grand Daughter with the Syndrome is on his Health Insurance so she is stuck unless she could get a court to force him to keep it. He would simply quit his present job and loose the Health Insurnace.

I agree, they could suddenly up and move and we would be stuck. The guy is the kind who would do something like that.

Unfortunately, he has my Daughter convinced that Marriage is "Old Fashioned". California no longer has "Common Law" Marriage. So, if he ever decides to walk the best she could hope for would be minimal Child Support. Had her daughter been born normal my Daughter would be out of there by now.

She cannot leave Southern California as all of the Doctors who have cared for my Grand Daughter are there. They know the childs medical history. My Grand Daughter has a very Rare Syndrome, just identified about 20 years ago and very little is known about it. Few Doctors have any knowledge of the Syndrome. So, Child must remain near the Doctors who are familiar with her and the symdrome as much as any Doctor can be.

I am out of the loop because I cannot afford to walk out of the situation. I wouldn't anyway because of my Daughter and Grand Daughter. So, I go along with whatever comes as it is easier and cheaper.

Hopefully, my wife will go down there, see what the costs are, and come to her senses. I guess if she can spend a month or two with the Grand Kids that might do for a while.

I hate to give up what we have since we got such a good deal on the house and moving to an unkown area where the costs are so high isn't really a good idea. But as I say, my wife ignores reality often.

Tiger Tom

Tom - I do quite a bit of babysitting from time to time and believe me its exhausting. I can see how your wife wants to help your daughter but I think this babysitting arrangement etc could end in tragedy with you both being in a trap. I have one child who with his spouse want to live a very busy social life although they have two very young children - it seems to be the kids have to fit into their lives not the other way round. I don't believe this is right. For instance my baby grandson who is now about 11 weeks old has travelled to more places in NZ in his short life than I did in 10 yrs. When he was only a week old they took him away in their boat out into the Gulf- miles from a doctor etc! Now they are going away again the weekend after next and have asked me to have Nikolas for three nights. The reason he is not going is because his Auntie is on Varsity holidays and loves the kids and has organised "a big day out" for him and his two cousins on the Sunday. His parents have something on in Christchurch ( at the other end of NZ) that same weekend. My son says they can only get a flight on Thursday and can't get one back til Monday - this I find a bit hard to believe! The Auntie who is organising the day out will have the little fellow on the Saturday night. It is not all beer and skittles being a grandparent close by. I am the only grandparent who lives in Auckland for three families and therefore the only one available to help out. I have no beef at all helping out in emergencies and for the occaisional night out but I have health issues and get very tired. Its a balancing act at times! It could be Tom that you will move and find you are as tied to the grindstone as you were when you were working! Maybe you should rent out your house and rent one down in Calfornia for 12 mths so you don't burn all your bridges should the fellow decide to move employment to another city etc. You will be able to see which way the wind is blowing and also your wife may find she does not want to be a full time babysitter once all the novelty dies out!

Carolyn

Tiger Tom -

#1 consideration: Is your wife exceptionally strong and healthy, for a senior? I also have a handicapped granddaughter, and it has been extremely difficult for me to take care of her. Now that she's older, (12), it's easier, but when she was younger, it was so exhausting that I have to admit that, as much as I loved her, I dreaded it when I had her any longer than a couple of hours. She wasn't toilet trained until she was about 10 years old, and believe me, you can't imagine how hard it is to change a diaper and clean up after a child who is so big!

#2 consideration: I know from personal experience that your daughter is NOT going to do what you and your wife want her to do as far as the boyfriend is concerned. However, you might encourage her to get a job where she will eventually get her own health insurance, and then become more independent and able to make other choices, concerning the guy. Another option is, if you and your wife could possibly pay for your granddaughter's health insurance? My husband and I pay for my youngest daughter's health insurance at Kaiser, because her job has no benefits. She has ongoing serious health problems, so although it's a bit of a strain for us financially, we feel better, knowing that she is covered.

Marilyne

My Daughter cannot get coverage as the Grand Daughter has a pre-exisitng condition. Actually the Grand Daughter is easy to care for. She is retarded and very small. She is five years old and weighs 20 pounds. So lifing her is not a chore nor is changing her diapers which will have to be done all of her life. She doesn't understand the potty or what it is used for, never will. So, caring for her is easy enough. She will eat anything and is a very happy child easily amused. She can walk but not talk. She loves music and the T.V.

My Daughter, the guy she is with, drags the Grand Kids from piller to post. Down to the San Diego Zoo several times a year, to Disney land at least once a month, shopping, Las Vegas. Long days in the Car. Kids could care less if they ever see the Zoo again and not that intereted in Disney Land either. However, my Daughter and the guy like to go there. Kids don't have a regular schedule of bed time, getting up, meal times, things that kids need and want. My Daughter when growing up had a schedule that was adhered to all of the time. She knew when meal time was, bed time, all of it. She could count on it. That is very important to a child growing it gives them an anchor and a sense of security.

My wife is as healthy as a Horse, strong too. Scares me sometimes. She loves gardening. Can spend the entire day in her garden and come in tired but happy. It relaxes her very much. She is German born so she never stops. She only sits still to watch a baseball game. Other than that she is on the go. She has a compulsion to work, clean, arrange. Her garden is her pride and joy. I just stay out of the way and help on the few occasions I am allowed to.

As far as becoming independent by getting a Job. Dare care for a handicapped child with the syndrome and problems my Grand Daughter has would eat up any wages that my Daughter would realize. So, as I say, she is stuck. The guy makes a good wage, has a good job and can well support his family.

Tiger Tom

All of which makes sense but sense doesnt always cut it when emotions are involved. My heart goes out to your wife and you as well. I am sure even while giving suggestions everyone can feel the dilemna ...you love your daughter, you have a wonderful special granddaughter whom you love and would love to help both. I am sure you are aware of the inherent problems whatever decision you make.

Your wife is healthy, she enjoys her life, re gardening..and I am sure she is torn, whether she admits it or not. To give up a place and a life that suits you to do a noble thing is really brave, just considering it is brave.

My concern is the father who will not like anyone telling him it is not good to traipse all over with the children when they need a more ordered life. We are not Ann Landers or Dear Abby's but caring net friends and for some, they have had similar expierences.

I was just thinking what discussion my husband might have used if this were us. He would assure me he understands my feelings. He would also tell me he needs me. He would tell me how much he would like to help the daughter and granddaughter. He would also remind me of the stress this would put on her and on both of you. What happens if her good health and energy (PLUS THE DEEP FEELINGS OF CONCERN AND WORRY ABOUT THE SITUATION) takes her energy and health away?

I think we all care very deeply about this...and I think most would like you to go there and stay long enough to get a real feel for the situation and how you can help. My prayers are with you both and my good thoughts are being sent your way.

My compliments to all the caring, concern and love I see here by all the posters. I am not surprised but humbled ...love you all, anna

Senior housing or any housing seems to be a problem for everyone. Young couples who bought the first home intending to move when the children came find themselves with a problem. Thier home will sell but to move up is sometimes three times what they are now paying,,and we with homes to sell find ourselves in the same boat...we could not begin to get the same room for what our homes would sell.

And a new home has its own problems. Ah I guess we just have to hope we can stay where we are...anna

Most people here size down. They have a large family home and when they retire they buy a small brick and tile 2 bedroom unit with a tiny garden and they are able to put some money in the bank as well. Units usually go for half the price or less than a large family home. Of course the very rich have more options and can buy a large home with no garden or maintenance in a beachside suburb for their retirement. Property is the main investment here and many people own more than one property using the rental from the second or third property to add to their retirement income. We are not great savers or stock market investors but love to put our money into real estate.

Carolyn

That sounds ideal but here there is a real problem. Small homes sell for a much as large homes. My property is valued at 175,000 and if I sold it for that a much smaller home in a nice neighborhood sells for nearly the same amount. Mostly due to the fact that my home is 33 years old and the newer homes are just that NEW....

Several of my friends had husbands with terminal illnesses who made the decision to sell their home and buy one of these smaller homes. When I say smaller they are just that. These ladies belong to several clubs who meet in the homes. When everyone comes there is no room.And no place to make a mess or follow some hobby. The husbands are gone now and the wife is not truly happy. Her familiar surroundings are gone as well and while these were new homes in a nice neighborhood two have had to replace some of the appliances because the two year warranty had expired.

I commend you and your countrymen on investing in real estate. That has always been a good investment.

I am just thankful I am healthy and dont have to make a decision right now. anna

Anna - I think for financial security and ease of maintenance one has to make sacrifices. If people like you for yourself a bit of inconvenience and mess in a smaller home should not matter to visitors. The most popular after school home for my daughters class was a tiny home owned by a family with 6 kids who just made everyone so welcome. This family were not forgotten and when the kids all grew up their after school visitors remodelled the kitchen and decorated the home as a thankyou.

Carolyn

Another suggestion - My brother lives happily in a tiny brand new apartment attached to his family home and lets out the big house as extra income.

Carolyn

I know a small home can be the best and I thank you for your kind thoughts and helpful suggestions.

It seems we may have run out of suggestions and themes re senior housing. But just in case anyone is interested I found a good web site that has a lot of information on it. I want to take time to return to it and check out some of the headings.

http://www.seniormag.com/

You have all made it a pleasure to come here each day and I appreciate it very much. Any more suggestions or concerns? We dont want to leave a stone unturned that may help others...anna

Annafair,

My Mother is in an Assisted Living Home. The Home has many activities for the residents. Also trips to various places and to go shopping. The apartments, while small, are very nice. Food is good and the attendants are pleasant and helpful. A quality place but expensive. We are glad that we found it.

One thing, I was hearing on the News this morning that people might stave of dementia by keeping the mind active by things like doing Cross Words Puzzles daily. My mother did Cross Word Puzzles every day for years, sometimes two or three. She has dementia and her memory is fading fast. I cannot see how keeping her mind active was of any help to her. Right now, she will not participate in any of the activities or go on any of the trips. I think that this is due, in part, to her Dementia.

Tiger Tom

Annafair

Thank You for your clickable I have bookmarked it after I went though it. It is Very informational, Is that a word? Well it is full of information there is that better. (BG)

TigerTom, I have just spent a few minutes reading all of the advice that you have received and its good advice. I think that if you can afford it, the solution is to move to CA for a year(keeping your own home) and see what you can do for your daughter.

We moved back to Ohio 5 years ago(to be nearer our son's family whom he was holding hostage here in downtown Gahanna) and the hardest part is keeping our(my!!!)mouth shut when we see what goes on at our son's home. Its better than most but mindboggling to me! Four kids under 8, two cats(constantly sick), a mother who is has ADD and is somewhat depressed and overwhelmed with a huge house that she can't handle but trying very hard! But, her children are for the most part, healthy, going to bed at same time every night, getting up early for school every morning, attending church on Sunday plus summer bible study and they are regulars at their community swimming pool. My fear is that I will be sorry that we are watching this wonderful little family when those dear children are TEENAGERS! Oh my goodness! I have already made plans to move south when they reach those ages but who knows what kind of shape we will be in at that time in our lives. I keep getting things fixed(my body) in preparation for that move but then something else breaks! Tee hee! :<))

I am responsible for an aunt who lives out of state(Delaware) and it sounds like she is just about where your mother is with the dementia. I received a call from the Nursing Facility where she now lives(having moved from Independant-to-Assisted-to Nursing) about a year and half ago. She is going on 91 but the nurse called me yesterday to tell me that it seems as if she has just given up! She no longer wants to get dressed or to go to the dining room to eat. And, she is living mostly on those milkshakes in a can. Oh, yuck! Poor lady! She was the youngest of my dad's siblings and was so poorly when born that they said she wouldn't live past six. The body is stronger than the spirit! Believe me, I know!

It is interesting to read everyone's posts about how they deal with themselves and their parents of other family members.

Tiger Tom my doctor told me years ago to keep my mind active to stave off dementia. He neednt have worried because I just have an active mind. I am 75 will be 76 in November and frankly I dont feel old. I keep so busy with things I do. I too do crossword puzzles, cant remember when I didnt, have a large library of books I have read and some more than twice. I remember all the phone numbers of my four children, my good friends, etc. I write poetry, essays, memories for my family, take classes at the local U, am doing watercolor classes now and still make my own clothes. I have no idea whether it will prevent dementia because dementia itself can be caused by any number of things. I do know one thing I am not going to stop...dementia may come but until it knocks me out I will continue to pursue all of my interests.

Perhaps if your mother hadnt worked all those crosswords she may have had dementia earlier. My motto has been I cant help aging but I dont have to grow old. I hope I never lose my joy and interest in life..but if I do I will have a great time until then. I pray your mother is getting the attention she needs. I have several friends who have been involved with senior retirement homes, assisted living etc and it seems some at 100 are still playing bridge and WINNING and others at much younger ages are losing a zest for life. Is it poor health? Attitude? Medicine? Depression? Pain? I would love to know and I would love to see whatever it is conquered. Let us hope that will be true.

Ann well my youngest moved near the rest of the family last year to be near her siblings, her mom, her nieces and nephews. We get along well and I allow them to bring up their children the way they want. It seems they are doing a good job and I am pleased but once in while I have to bite my lip. Makes a mess on my dress...blood is hard to get out..

Ginger yes there is a lot of information at that site which was why I posted it...I am so glad you found it helpful It is informational and if that isnt a word is should be ...love you all...anna

Tom, I did want to mention that if you can go to your daughter's area but maybe find a senior citizen mobile home park, where they have rentals,it is my understanding that they sell for pennies on the dollar when someone is trying to get rid of an elderly relative's estate. Where does your daughter live? I have friends in California, in many different places and they might be open to giving me some info on rentals if you want. Mostly my friends live in the southern part of California.

And, Ginger, have your ever talked to Gladys Barry about her nice apartment at the Senior Citizen Community Center in Cortland, NY? Its really nice!! I wonder if those are around the country.

Anne,

Thanks for the offer. Wife has her mind on something which is not telling me but I know it is not a mobile home.

Tiger Tom

Ann, I have not talked to Gladys Berry as my local friends go to Florida for the winter and keep there Mich. homes here so that is what I intend to do keep my home here and winter in Fla. where there are as I Will Not give up the Homestead on my own as we have been here since the 40ies and my Mother was the Matricharc (sp) of this community in Mich. But thanks for the suggestion.

Gingee, I'm not exactly sure where you're planning to go in Florida, but let me tell you that you'll love it. I lived on Anastasia Island just across the bridge from St. Augustine for just about ten years, and after northern ice and snow, it was lovely to have those much warmer winters and no fear of slipping on ice and no shoveling of snow. You're going to have a wonderful time, and I'm happy you can go.

Mal

Mal, Thanks for your encouragement. I am going to Dade City where my neibors are as there are many friendly neibors to watch our houses here I am Not afraid to let you all know. We are planing to have lunch with Andy who I have met and Louise J Evans who I have not met and I am so looking forward to the luncheon. So many Friends from S/N and the neiborhood the time will pass so quickly I will hardly be ready to come home but will. The man who plows for me here in Mich. will take care of the place I am sure as I have known him for along time also. Will look up on the map just where Anastasia Island is also even tho you are not there any more, I will think of you. I have many classmates who live in Fla. also the Keys etc. so I will be Very busy Me thinks. Smile.

I do volenteer on S/N and hope to keep up on what I do here also. Oh Me Oh My my winter will be busier than my summers this year. Yikes.

I am going to the S/N International gathering in Alberta, Canada and then to DC with the bookies and then to Fla. I must while I can.

Mal, I feel so bad that you can not do these things as I so wish you could as I would like to meet you as well as the rest. Oh You made me so happy to say that you are glad that I can go..Thanks.

I have spent so many days, years that I could not do these things for one reason or another but now I have high hopes to be able to. Your Friend, Gingee --- I love to be called Gingee as it sounds so Friendly, Thanks. I think that I will change my handle to Gingee right now. Smile.

I looked on the map of Fla. and have found Anastasia Island on the north eastern part of Fla. I will be kinda in the middle of Fla. but I have been many places in Fla when I was young. My Dad work on the building the Keys bridge.

I changed my name in my preference to Gingee Wright but thought different about it after I did it so changed it back do to it being in headings and all, Oh well I will be Gingee to my long time Friends in here OK.

Not a long-time friend am I, but friend I am--I like Gingee--I will call you Gingee. Okay?

I am excited for you about your plans...Florida in the winter, back to Michigan for summer. We lived in Orlando (before Disney World) and loved it--to me it was like being on a long vacation...the atmosphere there was so relaxing! My husband was stationed at USMC Recruiting office there for three years, then:: he got orders for Vietnam. END OF VACATION for this family!. I would put a smiley face here, but still haven't learned how.

So enjoy the planning and the anticipation--that's part of the joy of having so many fun things in your future. And of course, your great sense of humor will be right there with you.

No rules against having two monikers, huh, Gingee?--Lenalu

From now on they will be called gingeesnap cookies....I like either name. Ginger is one of my very favorite spices and I use it liberally...It has snap and bite and tastes SO GOOD. I love it ... for some reason I associate ginger with the word sassy....when I was young my mother made gingerbread all the time for dessert and I haunted the kitchen while it was baking as I loved a corner cut out of the pan while it was still hot. With a glass of cold milk .......it was fit for a epicure ...or a Princess which I felt like.....By the way I lived in Maitland Fla before Disney opened ..when I return I cant believe how crowded and congested the highways are etc...have a good day everyone ...anna

Lenalu, Yes please call me Gingee if you wish as I do consider you my friend and have missed your posting.

Me thinks (that is the Irish in me) that I am going to enjoy my choice of Fla. in the winter and Mich. in the summer and am truly looking forward to it.

Stingee Gingee Smile.

Annafair, FairAnna, remember that Smile. Oh I will never forget your coated nuts in DC. What a Treat you are a very good cook me thinks.

In my younger days three of us tented in Kissamee Fl. and spent our days at disney world OH the memories, I just loved the dolphins as that was in the 60 or 70ies and still do as I could just Hug them and Hug them .

I remember telling one gal Not to stay out to long as she could get a sun problem but she did Not stay out and got burned quite badly. Seems if we do not listen we burn and I learned the hard way as I have done the same thing in my life.

Now lets see what we have here, Stingee Gingee.

Ginger as a sassy lassie who snaps crackles and pops. Oh how I love each and every one of you with Agape love. I remain Your friend, Gingee, Ginger

I have told you my plans Now You Please tell Us Yours?

Anna, I noticed you used the word "attitude" in one of your post and it reminded me of a post that hung on the wall of my primary care physician's office. I thought I would share it with all of you.

ATTITUDES
"The longer I live, the more I realize, the impactof attitude on life. Attitude, to me, is more importantthan the past, than education, than money, thancircumstances, than failures, than successes, thanwhat other people think or say or do. It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company...a church...a home. The remarkable thing is that we have a choice every day regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day. We cannot change our past...We cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable....The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude.. I am convinced that life is 10% of what happens to me and90% of how I react to it. And so it is with you... We are in charge of our ATTITUDES."

Bill H

Bill, I just loved your post on attitudes means to me our way of thinking and mine is Hang on to the positive, Let go of the negitive and Don't mess with with Mister in between. Remember that song?

Tomorrow ( I think ) begins another episode of Curious Minds...and I want to tell you all how much I have enjoyed your posts. It was obvious to me this was an exceptional group. Ready to help all who was interested in making a future decision.

Whatever you decide in the future it is my hope and prayer it will be the best. I love the poem Attitudes for it is full of truth. My parents were the kind that said expect the best but prepare for the worse. I have found that even the worse event can have a positive outcome. I am not speaking of tragic events but the every day kind of unhappy things.

Today I painted a small sunporch ...and worked in my yard ..thank goodness since it is the first day we have had clear, pleasant weather. It was glorious sleeping last night and made me feel like I could lick my weight in wildcats...thank goodness I only had a porch and a yard to do!

Gingee no wonder we got along..I was a Hannigan before I became an Alexander and always told my husband we should have kept my name ,,but then he said Alexander was Scottish so I guess that was almost close enough.

I feel close to all here. You were open in your discussion and shared your advice and expierence in the most caring way. Thanks to each of you ...and the best day is the last. Again you came though, you are such a special lot. When fall comes I will be glad to return with another discussion in Curious Minds. I hope I "see" you then and "hear" again what you think about something new.

Hugs to all ....anna

Anna, thank you for a very fine topic. I'm sure it helped us all to consider our future steps toward senior housing.

Bill H

So what is next in this discussion? I for one really have enjoyed ever message. Thanks all of you.

Thank You ANNAFAIR for a wonderful topic. Tomorrow TIGER TOM will introduce the topic of National Days.

This sounds like an interesting new topic. Will we need to subscribe to the new one and cancel the subscription to this one? Sue

Curiously awaiting the next topic, I be. So I am glad to see the Indepenence day discussion is planned.

I have so enjoyed this discussion in all it's diversity. Everyone contributes so much good information and includes their personal feelings regarding the issue so it becomes like a fireside chat with close friends over coffee. After a good dinner of course when we are all mellow. How do we manage to stay so mellow in here when some of the discussions get so unmanageable? It is a puzzlement said the King. Thanks to our leaders and all the folks who make this discussion so enjoyable. Faith

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

We have many National days: Flag Day, Armed Forces Day, Memorial Day, and others. However, THE day is Independence Day, the 4th of July. (This will fall at the end of this two weeks of Curious Minds Discussion)

What does it mean to you? How do you plan to celebrate it? Picnic/BBQ? Family Gathering? Go watch a parade? Watch Fireworks/shoot off some of your own? Do you think of what this holiday really means?

Other Countries have their own National Day too. I would like to invite people from other countries to tell us about their day, what it means to them and how it is celebrated in their country

Links:

History of the 4th
Independence Day Around the World

Your suggestions are welcome

Discussion Leader: Tiger Tom

Books Main Page | B&N Bookstore

Good Morning All,

Well, National Day. Our is, of course, the 4th of July. Our independence day. Wonder if people these days think of whatit really is and means.

I mean other than a day to get togther with family and friends, have a Picnic or cookout, go swimming, shoot off fireworks, go to the Cementary for a VFW or American Legion ceremony, watch a Parade, day off from work.

Anyone reflect that declaring our independence lead to our Constitution, Bill of Rights, the Lewis and Clark expedition, the Civil War, leaps in technology. A raft of things sprung out of our gaining Indepence to guide our own desitny and create our own nation.

BTW, what are YOU going to do to celebrate the 4th?

Tiger Tom

National Day,

I am hoping we get some posters from other nationas telling us about their National Day.

I know that Canada Day is July 1st. I am not sure what that commemorates and I hope some one who is Candadian or was Canadian can fill us in on that.

Tiger Tom

BTW,

Indpendence day, in this case, does NOT mean the day your Divorce became final.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom, Why Not? he he heheh.

What the next topic would be and Tiger Tom methinks you chose well. From the preceding topic we decided intelligence and a sense of humor were the best reasons to love some one...as Ginger said Agape love I hold for all and especially you.

How did we celebrate the 4th of July? As a child there were parades, a community picnic in the park, friends,family, home made ice cream and of COURSE FIREWORKS. None provided by the community but each home held its own display. In the morning you would awaken to the sound of firecrackers. As soon as dusk arrived someone in the neighborhood would start their display and in a round robin effect we children sat on the porch steps and oohed and ahhed at the wonders. Soon it was our turn and Daddy was the person in charge. Flowerpots, pinwheels, roman candles, railroad flares, and for all of us sparklers to hold and enjoy. It was a great day but today what I remember most was the flag that almost made a curtain across the front porch.

My Little Grandma, an Irish elf came to live with us when I was about 7 and with her came the flag from my Uncle Tommy's funeral. He was gassed in WWI and died in Jefferson Barracks Hospital in St Louis. It was a huge flag, made of wool and had some moth holes and water stains. When my father would hang it on the porch it was a solemn moment and one I have never forgotten. Nor have I forgotten why we celebrate the 4th of July. Fireworks were a joyous tribute to men and women who fought and died and sacrificed so we could determine our own destiny. So it has always been a time to celebrate and a time to remember...thanks Tiger Tom for a timely discussion.....anna

Fourth of July to me, at this stage of my life, generally consists of hot dogs (traditional), flags and fireworks. I eschew picnics in the heat of the July sun, and never saw much fun in listening to speeches. George M. Cohan and Yankee Doodle Dandy usually come to mind at some point.

Fireworks are a bonus where I live; I can watch one display from my back door, and a second display by stepping into the street out front. No long drives and impossible parking. I've got it made! ...Babi

Fourth of July celebrations in my childhood were also Flags flying everwhere, Parades, Picnics, Games and fireworks. In my raising children years it was about the same though often we went camping on this holiday in the 50's. Then later as children left home it became a family reunion day with again flags, picnics and fireworks though now days fireworks are usually put on by the town we are in. The last one we held was in Placerville in 1999 with over 100 family memebers showing up. My sis and I worked our self into heat exhaustion and now we dont do it anymore and so far none of the chidren have taken up the ritual....

I love the Cinco de Mayo celebration for Mexican May 5th Independence day. It is a huge parade and picnic in parks all over Sacramento and they play soccor everywhere. What fun and in some days in the past I went with Mexican citizens to a private party where I was ask to wear an authentic Mexican Fiesta Dress which was lovely, in fact it was so beautiful I bought it from my hostess.

I never forget why we celebrate the fourth of July and I always thank all the ancestors that made our freedom today possible and I try to reinforce the ideals by talking about them to whomever I am celebrating with. I no longer have a flag to put up but hope to buy one soon. Faith

Hi, Canada Day is a holiday celebrating the creation of our Canadian Federal Government. BNA act on July 1st, 1867. The holiday was known as Dominion Day until Oct. 27, 1982 and was officially renamed Canada Day at that time.

Our holiday is rather like your July 4th. Celebrated with parades, picnics, flags, etc. It is intended to celebrate the birth of our nation...tho' is a grand summer holiday!

When I was a child living with my grandmother, we usually had a picnic with family members dropping by. All I remember eating is watermelon with a seed spitting contest and homemade icecream which we girls helped crank. I'm pretty sure when Grandma blessed the meal she gave thanks for our country and our freedoms and when Daddy was away in the Navy she always included prayers for his safety. When it got dark, we lit sparklers. Grandma and our spinster cousin thought firecrackers and bottle rockets were too dangerous.

When my Navy pilot husband was still on active duty, we usually went out to the base for a special celebration which ended with a fireworks disply. Our favorite fourth those years ago was when we were stationed with VX-1 in Patuxent River, MD. We drove up to DC and attended the Celebration and concert on the mall. It was such a thrill and emotional event to be singing patriotic music with thousands of other Americans.

This year I will probably be traveling home on the 4th. I am going to the Gulf Coast Writing Conference on the 30th and will drive to New Orleans on the 2nd or 3rd to pick up my grandsons for a couple of weeks with me here. Sue

Waitangi Day is our national day. Celebrates the treaty between the Crown and most of the Maori Tribes. We have official celebrations at Waitangi and our capital city Wellington but its low key. Mostly used to go to the beach or spend time with family. NZers are not into flag flying or waving its not our thing. We don't have fireworks.

Fireworks are used to celebrate another event. It celebrates the blowing up of the British Parliament by Guy Fawkes hundreds of years ago. For some unknown reason it has become a big celebration. I dont think the kids of today even know why we celebrate it. We did not celebrate this event much in our family once the kids reached their teens.

Kiwi Lady,

I remember when I was in England in the mid 60's. I would see kids on the street with what looked like a scarecrow but I guess was supposed to be a man. The Kids would say: "Penny for the Guy" I guess that was the way they got money for the fireworks they set off on Guy Fawks day.

Tiger Tom

Australia Day traditionally marks the anniversary of 26 January, 1788 when Captain Arthur Phillip and the First Fleet raised the flag on Australia's first European settlement at Sydney Cove. It is celebrated with community celebrations, cultural, sporting and special events. We now celebrate it in 'true' Australian style, recognising our summer weather, outdoor lifestyle, unique and spectacular landscapes and our love of a good party, a day to showcase to the world and to our fellow Australians, our achievements and our national spirit. The Australian of the Year and Young Australian of the Year are announced on Australia Day. Many choose to attend citizenship ceremonies on Australia Day. I did, and when my kids were adults, they did the same. There is a parade in every city and town. Since it's summer, most Aussies either go out for picnics or an Aussie barby, accompanied by the ubiquitious cricket game. An Aussie barby consists of snags (sausages), chops (lamb) and steak, fried onions, potato and coleslaw salad. Cooked but unshelled prawns are the usual appetiser, and Lamingtons as the sweet.

Last year, we went to the parade in Brisbane. We followed the parade to Southbank and joined in the festivities there....multicultural shows, watched the pie eating contest, the presentations, Aboriginal corroborees, etc. We then went up to Brisbane Forest Park (rainforest) and had a barby. Our patriotism is not as overt as Americans. We fly the Australian flag on 2 days per year....Australia Day and ANZAC day. However, we're just as proud of our country, our culture and lifestyle as Americans are.

Bobbie

I like Indepence Day. Besides celebrating the country's birthday, I have always been pretty independent. And it is one of very few holidays which comes early enough in the month while a poorer young guy still has some money to celebrate with instead of at the end when he is broke.

My only complaint about the Fourth of July is that we celebrate with fireworks that night rather than the night before. Now for you who either live far enough south to start fireworks at a reasonable hour, those who no longer get up early, or those who never got up early, this is no problem. Most of the years I worked, I got up early - delivering papers, at a produce wholesaler, milking cows, then on an early shift usually starting at six AM, but sometimes 4 AM. I lived around Seattle, which is far enough north to have fireworks wait until after 10 PM (daylight slaving time) to get started. Since we have changed most of the other holidays to give folks long weekends, I think we should have the fireworks the night of the 3rd. so folks can sleep in the next day. Why not?

Please to remember the 5th November,

Gunpowder Season and Plot.........

Can't remember the rest of it but I'm sure somebody will. Yes Tiger Tom - The kids still wheel around their effigies of Guy Fawkes, but these days expect a hell of a lot more than a penny for the Guy. These Guys are burnt on the bonfire on Firework Night. Trouble is, these days, Firework Night seems to last for about a month. I' m no spoilsporrt, but I wish they would make Bangers silent. I always worry for the animals who are so terrified by the loud bangs

St. George's Day is 23 April but apart from the Flag of St. George (Red Cross on White background) flying from public buildings, nothing much is done to celebrate it here. We see more for St. Patrick's Day - lots of shamrock around; and for St. David's Day when theres loads of daffodils and leeks around the place St. Andrew's Day rarely gets more than a mention south of the border.

Jissup,

More for the "guy" than a Penny. Sounds about right.

I have often wondered why Guy Fawkes day is celebrated. After all, he tried to blow up Parliment. Today that might not be such a bad idea.

I forgot St. George, St David, St. Andrew and St. Patrick. What about the Queen's official Birthday?

Tiger Tom

There is no National Pride left here in England, so what is left of the English Race doesn't bother any more....Fireworks and bonfires are lit assumedly to recall an attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament!.......Unsuccessfully!.....Is this or is it not something to celebrate....We do have a democracy here which we should be thankful for..Mostly the bonfire night celebrations are about enjoying a "big bash" or local youths throwing bangers about and frightening people...They have no idea who Guy Fawkes was and do not care and neither do the small shop keepers who sell the fireworks (in this community anyway..as some of you know I live in an area of Birmingham,England)..It would be wonderful to celebrate St. George's Day......in this multi-ethnic community other races celebrate their Saint's days and Countries' festivals, but somehow the English haven't a voice.It was good to see so many flags of St.George flying during the Football World Cup....My son, a member of the King Charles First Society would say King Charles 1. should be our patron Saint....He did die for his belief in the divine right of kings believing this was best for his Church and country to keep it intact, indeed he refused to succumb and is now a Saint of the Anglican Church.....their last one. Many of his supporters go to Whitehall in London annually on 30th January, the date of his beheading, for a service of remembrance. He was stubborn but principled and a great man....Just a point which saddened me when my son told me...King Charles1. shares a tomb with Henry 8th in St. George's Chapel, Windsor......This is dreadful...two such different monarchs, poor King Charles.He was a good husband and father...unlike Henry! It is also meaningful that 23 April is St. George's day and William Shakespeare's birthday.....we could have a great celebration day couldn't we....Our American cousins would certainly join in......They love "The Bard" and visiting Stratford-upon-Avon.....Yes?

I am from America and was invited to check out this discussion by Tiger Tom. I do see some of my cohorts here from the Mars and Venus floder. I can go along with what Jissup says about making them bangers quiet. I have always had dogs and they do not like the sound of all the fireworks going on. I am in the Mojave Desert, the fireworks companies come here to practice out on the dry lakes throughout the year. The is nothing so pitiful to see than your dog laying comfortably in the front yard when a loud BOOM sends him scampering into the house and trying to get under a bed that he doesn't fit under and shaking so much that it is difficult to get them calm again.

Marilyn=Ima

I've just been watching the tennis at Wimbledon on t.v. here in England. I posted earlier and was amazed at how patriotic you Americans are....Borne out this evening by the Sports Reporter on the Boston Globe reporting from the tennis...he was wearing the largest American flag/tie and there was no doubt where he came from or which country he supports...Just a comment re American pride in their land....

Bobbie - see how much your culture is like the American culture. Your celebrations are much more elaborate than ours. Although is some ways we are alike we are very different in other ways.

A few years ago during the Viet Nam war, it was almost un-American to be patriotic. Since the first gulf war, patriotic colors and behaviors are back in favor. Us old fogeys who remember WWII, can vouch for the swings back and forth. During that war, our patriotism may have been without all the information we now have, but it was a real part of our everyday lives. I guess flag-colored clothing is kind of like long skirts on women - just keep them around and they will come back into fashion.

Actually, it is against flag etiquette and not proper to wear American flags on clothing. Also flags on poles must be taken down at night unless they are lit, also in inclement weather. I do try to remember to take mine in and out daily, but sometimes forget. I don't think most Americans know the rules for flag waving. Even I, who does know, wear a flag t-shirt, a denim shirt with a flag on the back, and on the 4th a red skirt, white shirt, and a flag scarf--not really a replica, but red, white, and blue. These practices have changed with time.

One thing that I think should NOT happen is for the Congress and then the states to pass a Constitutional amendment making flag burning illegal. I think that is infringement of freedom of speech. I don't like to see it, but it is our right and one of our most important freedoms to be able to make political protests, such as that. Sue

CAROLYN......unfortunately I can see the similarities....and that's what Howard would like. However, the rest of us are resisting his suggestions. Note that he is the ONLY person who is wearing an Australian flag in his lapel....the poodle lap dog. We also refuse to fly the Australian flag aside from on Australia Day and ANZAC day, or at international sporting events....we are proud of that. As Bush pressures, blackmails us, the resistance to Howard's plans to make us more like America is growing. We do like to resist authority.<g> I think we became more like the US during the Clinton years because we all loved Clinton. Since we all hate Bush now, perhaps we'll resist more and more. I hope so. Most of us feel very strongly about retaining our national identity rather than becoming the 51st US state. Aussie, Aussie, Oi, Oi, Oi.

Bobbie

We are even different in our cheering Bobbiee. We go Kiwee (Pause)Kiwee and bang bang bang with our hands on the stands- you go oi oi oi!

Carolyn....the Oi, Oi, Oi comes from England I believe.

Bobbie

since the fourth falls on Friday my children are coming to Oklahoma from Nebraska for the Holiday and my young grandaughter wishes to go to the lake to watch the fireworks. That is the only time we would consider getting out into the trafic and the only reason to at our age. I watch other peoples fireworks when and if I do as we could not afford them and they are like so many things ( bang and they are done)To me just a waste of hard earned monies. We have a picnic and maybe go fishing and rest. Without the family it is just another day and work, work, work.

October 26: Austrian National Day (Nationalfeiertag) This holiday commemorates the day in 1955 when the last WWII troops left Austria. Houses are flagged with our National flag's colors: red-white-red stripes. During the past years it has become a patriotic "fitness day", as many people all over Austria take long walks. The Parlament building and all national museums are open and visits are free to the public. Stores and schools are closed. I remember walking on my father's hand (aged 6) on Oct, 26 in 1955 and my father told me - "today is an important day: it means that our country has become really free eventually".

Today in Quebec we have our very own Holiday, it is called 'La Saint Jean Baptiste. He is our Patron Saint. There will be fireworks displays in Old Montreal and a huge bond fire in the park at the foot of Mount Royal.

Because we are so close to the US border, roads will be jammed full for those three holidays as we plan to visit friends and family for the long weekends. Workers have 4 days off in a row.

Weather is just gorgeous.

Eloïse

Shakespeare's Birthday 23 April - yes the same as St. George's Day. The Queen's actual birthday is 21st April 1926, but her Official Birthday is in June, when they have the Trooping of the Colour, and all the public celebrations. Wonder if she gets two lots of presents?

I must say I particularly dislike to see a nation's flag being worn as clothing - specially when its tight shorts or pants. Seems so disrespectful, but that is a word that is becoming unknown to the youth of Britain.

I like to see the many flags flying in the States. Ours only seem to come out on special occasions, and tend to look dusty and creased.

We also have Mothering Sunday, which has now become Mother's Day. See info: below. Now we seem to have adopted Father's Day - how long before we get Aunties Day, GrandMa's Day, GrandDad's Day, Brother and Sister Day, Cousin's Day and so forth? There's a fortune awaiting someone.........

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Story of Mother's Day

The earliest Mother's Day celebrations can be traced back to the spring celebrations of ancient Greece in honor of Rhea, the Mother of the Gods. During the 1600's, England celebrated a day called "Mothering Sunday". Celebrated on the 4th Sunday of Lent (the 40 day period leading up to Easter*), "Mothering Sunday" honored the mothers of England.

During this time many of the England's poor worked as servants for the wealthy. As most jobs were located far from their homes, the servants would live at the houses of their employers. On Mothering Sunday the servants would have the day off and were encouraged to return home and spend the day with their mothers. A special cake, called the mothering cake, was often brought along to provide a festive touch.

As Christianity spread throughout Europe the celebration changed to honor the "Mother Church" - the spiritual power that gave them life and protected them from harm. Over time the church festival blended with the Mothering Sunday celebration . People began honoring their mothers as well as the church.

In the United States Mother's Day was first suggested in 1872 by Julia Ward Howe (who wrote the words to the Battle hymn of the Republic) as a day dedicated to peace. Ms. Howe would hold organized Mother's Day meetings in Boston, Mass ever year.

In 1907 Ana Jarvis, from Philadelphia, began a campaign to establish a national Mother's Day. Ms. Jarvis persuaded her mother's church in Grafton, West Virginia to celebrate Mother's Day on the second anniversary of her mother's death, the 2nd Sunday of May. By the next year Mother's Day was also celebrated in Philadelphia.

Ms. Jarvis and her supporters began to write to ministers, businessman, and politicians in their quest to establish a national Mother's Day. It was successful as by 1911 Mother's Day was celebrated in almost every state. President Woodrow Wilson, in 1914, made the official announcement proclaiming Mother's Day as a national holiday that was to be held each year on the 2nd Sunday of May.

While many countries of the world celebrate their own Mother's Day at different times throughout the year, there are some countries such as Denmark, Finland, Italy, Turkey, Australia, and Belgium which also celebrate Mother's Day on the second Sunday of May.

Ah Jissup we do have that day here. When we lived in Japan they had boy's day when flags shaped like a carp flew. I think they had some other days for girl's as well. Making money aside I enjoy all the special days. While we shouldnt need reminders they do serve that purpose.

I fly an American flag day and night. My porch lights allow it to shine at night. And many people also fly an American flag and there is a whole industry based on making flags for every special day. We even have smaller flags called garden flags exhibited on a iron stake.

I used to fly tube flags ( for the life of me I cant recall what they are called) that I made for every special holiday. Easter, Valentines Day, St Patrick, 4th of July etc....I really enjoy driving through a neighborhood that flies some sort of flag. Most are cheerful and they make me the same...anna

For those of our posters here from Great Britain, perhaps you can tell me what is meant by "Boxing Day" in England? I believe it's the day when everyone clears out trash and so forth? It seems to me I read of it somewhere, sometime.

Lorrie

Boxing Day used to be the day where people boxed up gifts they didn't need and took them to the needy. Now, it's an extra day off work. However, for many Aussies, it's the day we visit friends who we did not see on Christmas Day. That's what I do on Boxing Day, and my kids have continued that tradition.

Bobbie

annafair, the "tube flag" you mentioned was possibly one of the decorative wind socks.

I wouldn't think any disrespect was meant by wearing clothing made out of cloth printed with the flag motif. But I would consider it disrespectful to make an article of clothing out of an actual flag. I guess that's a pretty thin distinction, though.

Has anyone here mentioned "Nowruz" which is the Iranian New Year?? For 2500 years Iranian astronomers have scanned the heavens for the sign. When the sun crosses the equator, a fresh year rises, heralding the first day of spring. Explosians of firecreackers break the spring silence, fires glow red across Iran. Part of the celebration is the Zoarastrian fire festival which echoes with all-night drumming and chanting and which is older than Islam. This festival is interwoven with Zoraoaster's sacred flame. Sins collected over the year are burned away(by fire leaping) under the night skies. Just leap. You become clean. As the Iranian men leap over the fires they pray, "give me your healthy red glow and take away my sickly color." Later, the children dress in black shroud costumes, take a copper soup ladle along with a metal bowl and summon their neighbors to the doors by banging on their bowls with their ladles. If somone gives them something, it means that God will also give. If nobody gives them anything, then God will give them nothing. (Yes, I read about this in "Searching For Hassan")

Jissup I feel hurt - everyone forgets little old NZ who also celebrates Mothers Day on the second Sunday in May!

Boxing Day in NZ is a day to gather with friends and family - some who missed Christmas day and eat all the left overs from Christmas day and some more!

Boxing Day originated in England in the middle of the nineteenth century under Queen Victoria. December 26th became a holiday as boxes were filled with gifts and money for servants and tradespeople.

Also, poor people carried empty boxes from door to door, and the boxes were soon filled with food, Christmas sweets, and money. Parents gave their children small gifts such as, oranges, handkerchiefs, and socks. People also placed old clothing that they didn't need anymore in boxes, and they were given to those in need.

Today, Boxing Day is a holiday in the United Kingdom, Canada, and many other Commonwealth nations. It is spent with family and friends at open gatherings with lots of food, fun, and the sharing of friendship and love.

While government buildings and small businesses are closed, the malls are filled with people either exchanging gifts or buying reduced priced Christmas gifts, cards, and decorations.

Throughout the Christmas season, many organizations follow the original tradition of Boxing Day by donating their time, energy, and money to fill the Food Bank, provide gifts for children who live in poverty, or to help an individual family who is in great need at the time.

KIWI - I WOULD NEVER FORGET YOU!

When I was a much younger man the Fourth of July was very meaningful to me. You see, my wife's family and my family would all get together for one grand picnic. Of course, this great time was held at one of the county parks. Reservations for one of the sheltered groves had to be made well ahead of time to insure said grove was available.

Oh wat a feast there was. All the women would prepare a dish or buy something for this affair and the men would bring the beer ) No hard liquor was permitted in the county parks and that was for the best and, for our families, this joyous get together didn't turn into a drinking marathon. The picnic table was set with all kinds of goodies and it wasn't possible to eat everything, although some tried. After the food was packed away on dry ice and we digested what we had eaten, the guys would play softball or horseshoes and the gals would get up a volley ball game. Just a great time.

When evening fell we sat around drinking coffee,eating cookies, talking, and were almost ready to start home, my wife's grandmother would always say: "Well, summer is over." At the time I didn't understand why she would say this .However, as I grew older I realized what she meant. You know, after Independence Day the time seems to fly past to Labor Day especially for the children, who are not all that anxious to return to reading, writing and arithmetic I suppose my wife's grandmother knew what she was talking about.

Bill H

This link will take you to a fine web site, which in turn provides several other meaningful links for our nation. Oh yes, click on Fireworks to see a display. When you click on the National Anthem you must wait several seconds to hear the music.

Fourth of July

Bill H

Not to belabor the point that holidays originated for one thing often change over time, but the company where I worked celebrated Boxing Day as a day when management left their offices and took over some ordinary person's job. This was a spin on the adage, "To lead is to serve". And, some ordinary person was chosen to "fill the vacancy" in each management office (without the authorization to "change" anything, of course (^.^).

Howzat

All,

Nice to see all of you here. My ISP has brought in a "New and Improved" Server. Naturaly, it works poorly, if at all. My last few posts have been wiped because I got disconnected or everything stopped dead and I had to back out and get off the internet.

This morning I could not get in to the SN.

So, if you don't hear anything from me it is because my ISP has gone South.

Tiger Tom

Of course ,,thanks so much ,,,it would have gnawed at me until I remembered...or called my daughter to ask WHAT WERE THOSE THINGS I GAVE YOU???Oh well I havent thought of them for at least 5 years and I dont see them anymore...thanks again.....anna

Jissup you reminded me about the half price Boxing Day Sales! Its a practice now to give kids vouchers and they can go get expensive toys for half price on Boxing Day. They all know about vouchers now even the five year olds. I took Brooke the year before last and she was ecstatic spending her vouchers!

Two more patriotic holidays that Americans celebrate are Memorial Day which used to be on May 30, but is now one of those 3 day weekend things and comes at different times and Veteran's Day in November to recognize the Armistice of WWI.

I especially love Memorial Day which was originally started to honor Civil War Veterans. I lived with my grandmother as a child at her home place. She was quite a gardener and always had beautiful flowers in May. We usually went to the cemetery several days before the holiday to clean the graves. On Memorial Day, my spinster cousin prepared a huge picnic as many cousins, nieces and nephews of my grandmother, and their children would come back to the home place to remember our Dead, both veterans and family. We got up very early to take the flowers to the cemetery and put them on many graves. We usually stayed there until about noon visiting with friends and family. Then we went back to Grandma's house to eat and reminisce about family. The town usually had a parade honoring veterans and we'd often walk up town to see that. During World War II we had to have a great uncle take us to the cemetery as my Daddy was away in the War. None of the ladies I lived with drove. Sue

I forgot to mention that the American Legion and other Veteran's groups took small flags to the cemetery to honor the War Dead.

I loved to read about the American 4th of July celebrations. I saw Bill's 4th of July link. It is the firt time I read the entire Decleration of Independence. Interesting how it is worded.

We also have Boxing Day but I didn't know how it came to be named that. I always thought it was an American holiday, but I see that it has a British origin. Boxing Day has no official French translation as we call that holiday "Le lendemain de Noël".

Although I don't go out to watch a parade any more, when my children were small, I dragged everybody out of the house to watch it. All the neighboring towns had their own bands and you could hear their music getting louder and louder as they were approaching. Flags and banners flew high. Dignitaries marched between the bands. We were always sorry to see the end of the parade when everybody started to disperse.

The 24th of June is a very special day in Quebec. More and more people are participating in the festivities, fireworks displays, musicians and singers performing, bands marching, large crowds gathering in the parks and we had wonderful weather yesterday which made is even more special this year.

I must have missed it somewhere, Eloise, but why is 24 June a special day in Quebec?

For years I tried never to miss the annual 4th of July concert by the Boston Pops Orchestra on public TV. There has never been a musical score that thrills my patriotic fervor as much as their rendition of the "1812 Overture" even though it was written for a victory that had nothing to do with American independence. Watching those itty-bitty cannons go off was simply icing on the cake!

Lorrie

In Fairbanks on the fourth, many people gather in Alaskaland's Pioneer Park. The orchestra is made up of members from the different air force and army bases in the area. Down by the river, several howitzers are set up and by electronic communication, they go off at the time in the overture. At the end, they do a cannonade for each of the fifty states and then for the whole country.

Mary Z

FETE DE LA ST. JEAN BAPTISTE

Unfortunately the history of the St. Jean Baptiste Day in this link is in French but it says there that the 24th of June was, on one part the summer solstice celebrated with huge bond fires, on the other part, that day was celebrated in France since immemorial times as Catholic France honoured John the Baptiste, the cousin of Jesus. The flag representing a white lily on a blue background was the French flag at one time.

Angelface555: Wow! Howitzers? That must make a real bang!!

Lorrie

It certainly sets the dogs to barking!

Thanks, Eloise - I'd not heard of that French holiday before - Bastille Day, certainly - is that "Quatorze Juillet" - and my memory of French really bad - 14 July?

One most interesting Fourth of July Independence Day parade is held in Montgomery, Alabama. The residents of Cloverdale, an older historic homes area, put on their own parade. They dress in red, white, and blue, decorate children's wagons and strollers and pull or push their children. Some kids decorate bikes and ride in the parade. I think the one time we went over for their parade, some had made little floats out of riding lawn mowers. Lots of flags waving from the Marchers and people lining the beautiful shaded streets. This event always gets TV coverage. I think they've been doing it at least 25 years, maybe more. We've only lived in Alabama 24 years. Sue

Is this what you are looking for?

Saint-Jean Baptiste

Ginger, you are a genius. Yes, exactly. It's all there. Thanks my friend. I didn't attend any of those, it's too late and too noisy, but they are nice, I saw it on television. Bastille Day on the 14th of July is France's National Holiday and we celebrate it Montreal also. So we celebrate 4 National Holidays here between the 24th of June and the 14th of July.

Meantime we are enjoying our short summer weather.

Lorrie, I enjoy watching the annual Fourth of July concert by the Boston Pops Orchestra but the part I like best is at the finish when the band plays the marches of all branches the US Military. When the men and women of the armed forces both past and present stand as their branch of service march is played such as the Air Force, Navy, Marine and Coast Guard marches I find them all very stirring but the one that brings past memories to me and still gives me patriotic fervor is when the band strikes up the Army march. The army is the branch of the military I served in. One never forgets.

Who can forget this guy on the Fourth

Bill H

You can listen to your favorite military marches and favorite old time songs by clicking here. Select the ones you like.

Patriotic songs

Bill H

Thanks Bill so much for the Patriotic songs link. I love those songs, all of them. Our town always has an Independance Day celebration which they call "God and Country Day". There's always a big crowd and beautiful fireworks. If we don't attend that, we flip between the several televised celebrations on the TV. It's interesting to hear about the national celebrations in other countries.

I have enjoyed hearing about other celebrations like our Independence Day. It is fun to finally know what Boxing day is. I had a totally erroneous idea about it and thought it had something to do with Boxers Wars???? if there was such a thing. I seem to associate it with China. Hope someone knows what my poor Senior lapse is all about. hehehehehe

We are not going to have a family gathering this year but the park is planning a picnic up at the swimming pool out on the big lawn. If it is very hot I dont go out as I get heat exhaustion to easily. After dark it is ok but it is so late here with daylight savings time it is almost 10 before it gets dark. Still I will see the fireworks way far off in the sky from the fairgrounds. Hope everyone has a nice day celebrating. Faith

I can't let go of the chance to mention the 17th of May, which is the equivalent of Independence Day for Norway - and is when they got their Constitutution and Independce from Denmark. . "Den Syttende Mai" is how it is in Norwegian. I have not been in Norway on the Day, but I have seen celebrations in Minneapolis and Moorhead, where the folks of Norwegian ancestry pull all of the stops out. There are processions of kids and adults in their national costumes, and dancing that is quite amazing. It is a liitle removed, since most folks have just heard about the Day secondhanded, but if you can sing "Ya, vi elsker dette Landet" or "Norge, mit Norge" - or have heard Garrison Kiellor expound on the Day, it can be very meaningful.

isak

Today while I was listening to the radio, an announcement was made about the Independence Day Celebration at Old Alabama Town in Montgomery. This is one of those living history exhibits. They will be having activities similar to those which pioneers had and the people who portray characters will be there to talk about times past. That sounds like an interesting way to spend Independence Day. Sue

Hello Tiger T. I found this litle history about our National Day.Year 1893 did man Artur Hazelius party (fest) under 4 days .And stopp on 6 june. Artur Hazelius take day 6 june to our National Day for the wos the day King Gustav Vasa be Sweden King. The first time wos only in Stockholm people go to National Day. Year 1916 the be Natiolnal Day in hole Sweden. And now is party in all city. The will now done this day be sunday. But I know Norvays are much better to have bigg Natonal Day................Sigun

Tiger Tom

Although your request for some details on German National Holiday(s) appeared in another forum of SenNet the answer will be from Germany and right here where it belongs. But first: Please excuse my English which is a bit rusty after all these years, but I hope to do my best.

German National Holidays are scarce. We have major events such as Easter, Pentecost and Christmas each with a 1st and a 2nd Holiday which are being celebrated all over the country. Apart from these we have a number of other regionally important ecclesiastic holidays and we have a few days with at least a shade of political background. May 1st is the one which translates literally as "Labor Day" but seems to me to be totally different compared to the US Labor Day. Here the Unions celebrate on a major scale, and prominent politicians come out with speeches before union member congregations ("Sunday Speeches" as we call such verbal floods).

And then we have the "Day of German Unity" and that needs at least an explanation.

As you may perhaps vaguely remember Germany had been spit after WW II into several occupation zones (US, British & French) which after a few years combined to what was first called "West Germany" developing into the "Federal Republic of Germany (FRG)", and the Soviet zone ("East Germany"), later becoming the so-called "German Democratic Republic (GDR)".

In 1953, around June 17th , a spontaneous uprising by the people of the Soviet zone nearly smashed the Communist government, but the developing revolution was forcefully suppressed by the Soviet Red Army Occupation Forces leaving many dead and wounded civilians and causing a large number of political prisoners.

Since then, 1953, we in the FRG had June 17th day as the "Day of German Unity" to remember the numerous victims of the ill-fated uprising.

In 1961, on August 13th, the unholy Wall (Berlin Wall) between West and East went up and separated the two parts of Germany for the next 28 years, until on November 8th/9th 1998 the unbelievable happened and the dreadful Wall came down, at last.

As it happens, Nov, 9th is a date in Germany's history linked to certain occurrences in the early 20th century, i.e. the end of WW I and the 20's and the 30's years, especially to the Nazi regime. Therefore, a day celebrating the re-unification of Germany had to be fully independent of any "mis-Interpretation" and that lead to arbitrarily fixing the "German Day of Unity" on October 3rd. At the same time June 17th was officially given up.

Now, in 2003, fifty years after said uprising, political opinion is heavily split as to re-introduce the June date and probably omit the "artificial" October 3rd day.

Sigun, Pal1963,

Thanks bunches for coming here and telling use about the national days of your country.

Pal1963, I lived in Germany, off and on, for eleven years. I can remember a number of religious days that were celebrated country wide.

I often had wished there would have been a "BratKartoffeln" Day. I would have celebrated that with gusto. Oh to be young again and having a good cold Beer, Schnitzel and Bratkartoffeln. Heaven.

Tiger Tom

Now that the "Holidays" have been dealt with, I understood that you have lived even in Hamburg. And that is, BTW, where this mail input is located. Where have you lived, the suburb or whatever you may call it ??

Your dearly missed "Bratkartoffel" Day has still not yet been introduced, I wish they did that, the sooner the better. If you were interested in some original recipe for this delicate form of serving the good old potato you could ask Gunther. I'm sure he has the right thing available. If I'd try to send you a "prescription for preparation" it would have to either be in German or translated of course. In latter case the spice may be lost though (BG). Or do you still remember enough German at least to read the language??

Greetings from Hamburg,

PAL

Pal,

We lived on Harvesthuterweg. Just near Eppendorf.

Best Bratkartoffel I had in Germany was in Bonn when I was stationed there from 1960-1962.

A small restaurant near the SnellFahre taking cars across the Rhine.

Chef there would boil Potato's, dice them, and then pour melted Butter on them and let the Potato's soak in that over night. Fry them the next day for Mittagessen. I used to order a BIG bowl of them and then defend that bowl with everything I had. The usual indvidual serving was not enough for me. BTW, my favorite Beer in Germany was Flensburger Pilsner. Second was Beck's. Of course, there were so many great Beers in Germany it would be hard to pick. Besides I never had most of them, but sure wanted to.

Tiger Tom

Someone asked about "the Boxer something that had to do with China"? In the 1800s, China's coastal areas were dominated by the British, Europe, and even Japan and Russia. Some of these entities even declared that they OWNED parts of China. The dowager Empress of China was displeased. Some Chinese were not only displeased with this, but also with the dowager Empress herself. A group of Chinese men that called themselves "The Fist of Righteous Rebellion" were known as "Boxers" by foreigners because they were skilled in the martial arts. These men, encouraged by the Empress (who wanted to close China to foreign trade), some 20,00 strong attacked foreigners of all stripes early in the year of 1900. There was a fine mess with white skinned bodies everywhere. This rebellion was put down by international forces and China remained open to trade (and exploitation) until after WWII.

Howzat

Thank you Howzat. You did answer my question. The Boxer Rebellion. hehehe see I thought Boxing Day was a rememberance of this conflict. Oh well so much for >seniorlapses of the synapses So see you on the fourth of july at the parade. We will go over to a small park in a subdivision by us where the children of that neighbor hood are going to have a parade of decorated tricycles, wagons, pets etc. Bet it will be more fun than downtown. Faith

This is the first year in over 40 that all aspects of my two terrific sisters and my family will not meet somewhere, in a park or a home, just to visit and eat stuff that we have all given up for one reason or another, or start a a softball game or a volleyball game, or whatever, just to enjoy each others company and gab and gab. One sister is gone to her reward, the other is 95 and in assisted living. I am the younger one at 81.5 and my branch of the group will gather still for a barbeque somewhere near the beach and watch the fireworks at night. It won't be nearly as lively as it used to be but then neither am I. Even so, our small group of fifteen or so will enjoy the day and talk about new things happening in our lives. I won't forget to mention the fact that I shot a 35 at our little 9 hole golf course this past Thursday and make my two sons-in-law envious. How great it is to be with people you greatly love and admire. Oh Bill, I too greatly enjoy the Boston Pops musicals and the Military Band presentations put on in Washington D.C. on the 4th or Veterans day. All good stuff! losalbern

You know the old saying, all politics is local? Well, so are the parades that make you "feel" the best. Those big downtown extravaganzas can't make your chest swell up or put a lump in your throat like a local parade with kids and folks in the neighborhood waving the flag.

Howzat

PAL - When I lived in Germany I thought there were many more special days than we have in England. Oktoberfest, Silberfest - and the one that really threw me - Faterstag! No-one warned me I should not go out on that day and I ended up driving the car VERY slowly with two or three very drunken Faters hanging on the bonnet. I was rescued by the Military Police and escorted home! We lived in Wuppertal-Elberfeld, near Koln.

Jissup, and good day to you.

Bill H

Pal1963: Your English is excellent. Thanks for the interesting details about German holidays.

I was interested in your comment on your Labor Day. When I was a child, Unions were very strong in the United States and Labor Day was primarily a holiday with strong Union participation. They had political speeches, picnics, parades, etc. Now it seems to have mostly dwindled down to another 3 day weekend where people go to the shopping malls and don't even remember how hard the Unions had to work to organize. Here in the southeast, at least in Alabama, the Unions don't have much clout. The exception is the Alabama Education Association which is not really a union, but a branch of the NEA. I am so thankful it has a powerful lobby as I am a retired teacher. Our AEA leader, Paul Hubbard, brought our teachers out of the dark ages in the past 30 years. Our teachers are still underpaid, but are coming closer to the regional average, all thanks to him and his efficient staff's lobbying efforts. Sue

Thanks for the practically perfect heading, only the word "Mein" should rather not be written with a capital "M".

You are of course right, there is a nearly endless row of holidays in Germany. But the issue in this forum is just National Holiday(s), so all the other most enjoyable ones had to be omitted. If we wanted to discuss them we would have to take into account all those you mentioned plus the huge number of regionally important holidays as well. Each little town i.e. has its fire brigade and the annual "fire brigade public display and ball" is the most important social event for miles around. Replace "fire brigade" with anything you can imagine. Then you have what people understand as "holiday". Let's look at "Oktoberfest". That is not a National Holiday in Germany but a kind of National Bavarian Holiday Week(s) as this big event can only be "celebrated" in Munich (München). The other little Oktoberfests all over the world meanwhile are just make believe.

What is "Silberfest" ? I've never heard of that. It's probably a local event where you lived

And then "Vatertag" (written with a capital V). There is no real holiday of that name in Germany. The true Holiday is called Ascension Day, but over the years it developed, apart from its spiritual contents, into the very worldly "Vatertag" where mostly young men but rarely real fathers try to display manly behavior by drinking beer (and booze) and sometimes to the extent that you have observed (endured?).

It may be of interest that we in Northern Germany have significantly fewer holidays than our people down South. "Holiday" in this connection is a "day off" from work but fully paid.

PAL.

Thanks for the reply. As you know we had in Germany the 1933 to '45 time interval when, at least in peacetime, on May 1st the Nazi party had big parades, flaming speeches and everything that goes with organized demonstrations. After '45, when the original contents of May 1st as the "Day of Work" was re-introduced we had everything you described from your memory, maybe without the picnics (I have never taken part in any). A small fraction of the initial union enthusiasm is still there after 50 + years, and the unions organize at least one central event in Germany on May 1st with annually changing locations, from Berlin to Munich, Hamburg etc., apart from all the small local union meetings on that day.

Generally speaking, the unions are still rather strong. Strike movements happen, though rarely. Just now a major strike by the "IG Metall (= metal workers union)" in - what we call - our New Federal States has finally blocked the car production of nearly all German Auto firms, such as VW, BMW, AUDI, DAIMLER-CHRYSLER, to introduce the 35-hours working week in these states, too. But today the union stated that the strike has failed, something that never before happened. This particular strike was very unpopular in Germany because of economic reasons, maybe it failed due to public opinion. It will cost the unions another share of members and the strength of unions in general might suffer another major loss. I don't know what the final outcome of the present situation for the whole country will be, the outlook is not very encouraging for the unions.

PAL

Thanks for the additional union information, PAL. Did you know that we have a Mercedes auto plant in Alabama? I think this is a German company. We also have Honda and Hyundai establishing plants here. I think it's because we have so few unions. Sue

PAL - Yr 266 - Thank you for your comments. As you can see I have forgotten most of my German. Haven't used it for forty-odd years. Silberfest I think was around New Year. Maybe its only in Koln. And you are quite right - I was thinking of days off work, not necessarily national Days. I might add that when I lived in Germany in the sixties I was always impressed by the high standard of cleanliness and the prompt and reliable service in shops and restaurants. The last time I visited my niece in Dusseldorf (a few years ago) I was shocked to see litter and graffiti in the streets, and had to return a coffee cup which had lipstick on it. Also I thought the Polizei were much easier going. They even smiled at me, and let me off crossing a street against the red light. There was no traffic in sight, but that would have earned me an on-the-spot fine in the old days, and certainly no jokes.

Jissup,

Sad to hear that things are being trashed in Germany.

I remember when that happened in Holland. The hippies hit Amsterdam and ruined it. The Dutch, who kept an immacualte country, were left to clean it up.

I too remember the service. The Waiters were all professional, well trained.

Things pass.

Tiger Tom

Well, well, well, it's not a shame to loose an ability by not using it because of lack of opportunity. Your muscles would certainly do it, the more those little gray cells. And by mentioning the seasonal connection of "Silberfest", how about "Silvester (sometimes written as Sylvester, an ancient Saint", the old year's last day and evening. A "trace" of your silver (Silber in German) is there! Your mentioning of cleanliness and prompt and RELIABLE services in shops and restaurants fills me (and many other elderly people) with awe and contempt. As you noticed, the cleanliness is nearly gone and the reliability of services as well. We have, as newspapers mourn for tens of years already, a real "service desert" in this country and that includes service everywhere and any kind, including the public service and the so-called authorities. The most important train of thoughts is "What can I request and draw from the state for how long?" instead of Kennedy's "What can I do for the state?". Let's leave this issue where it is, I could go on for hours!

PAL

Your post #268 tells about a Mercedes factory in your "vicinity". Yes, we know that the once called "Daimler-Benz" auto manufacturer, now "Daimler-Chrysler", opened at least one major plant in the US. I wouldn't have remembered the State of Alabama though, what a shame! As to the strength of your unions, I don't believe that a unions' issue influenced the decision to erect the plant there significantly. It has probably to do with available not too expensive labor force, which however may be a side effect of lacking union power. This is slippery ground for me as I'm a communication engineer and not an economics expert. Thanks for the info about Honda and Hyundai.

PAL