Thirteenth Tale ~ Diane Setterfield ~ Prediscussio Export

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Everyone is welcome!

Diane Setterfield, described as a "former academic," has put aside her teaching of 20th century French literature to write this debut novel, a classic gothic tale much like Jane Eyre, mentioned frequently in the novel, Wuthering Heights and The Woman in White.

Margaret Lea, a London bookseller's daughter, who leads a rather solitary existence in her father's shop, finds herself involved in unraveling the mystery surrounding the renowned, aging author Vida Winter, who wishes to reveal her long-hidden life story in her last days. In the process, Margaret discovers much about her own past! Haunted houses, long lost twins, and unrelenting mystery, it's all here.

The compelling novel forces one to consider if and how our own long-hidden secrets might be revealed at the end.

We will read and discuss one of the gothic tales mentioned in Diane Setterfield's novel, The Woman in White, in January. Sharing similarities from this gothic Victorian tale will surely enhance the discussion of The Thirteenth Tale.

From the author
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Discussion Leader: Joan Pearson

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Have you heard anything about this book?

"Diane Setterfield is the author of the novel “The Thirteenth Tale”, published in September 2006 by Orion. The novel has struck a cord with readers in the US, with the novel achieving the spectacular feat of reaching No.1 on “The New York Times” bestseller list on its debut. Diane Setterfield is in her forties, and she works as a teacher. UK publishers bid £800,000 for “The Thirteenth Tale” while US publishers ended up bidding $1m for the rights. Diane was talent-spotted by the novelist Jim Crace on a writing course that taught her how to get an agent and how to send work to publishers. “The Thirteenth Tale” is also expected to appeal to filmmakers. Diane Setterfield lives in Harrogate." Authortrek

Barnes and Noble is featuring a discussion of the book with the author's participation this month. If it turns out that you are interested in a discussion of this book, maybe we can get the author to participate with us? Diane Setterfield fascinates me. She has put aside her career teaching 20th century French literature - to write this book that reveals a knowledge of, a love of 19th century British literature!

There are frequent references to Jane Eyre in the story - as well as other titles of this period - Wuthering Heights, Woman in White. I intend to read Jane Eyre again. I've seen film versions of the story, but that's not the same thing, is it? Golly, it's been near 50 years since I've actually read the book, I think!

Setterfield's novel is a page-turner and I can hardly wait to see how it turns out. Just in case we decide to go ahead with the discussion, I don't want to know how it ends until you do, so I've stopped my reading with 120 pages to go! You don't know how difficult this is for someone like me! How to resist finishing until the January discussion!!! For you, I will try.

Let's see whether we have quorum or not...(if not, I can finish the book!!!) Just post here to indicate your interest. Thanks!

ps. You might get a kick out of this web site if you can get it to load. My computer keeps timing out when trying to load the audio interview with the author. If you are able to hear it, will you share something of what you heard?

Good morning JoanP, I am very excited about "The Thirteenth Tale." I would write more this morning. I need to go vote. People everywhere are talking about this book.

Joan when would you be doing the discussion if you got a quorum? I can't obtain the books as quickly as you guys can. We don't get them out here for quite a while after you get them in so I have to buy from Barnes and Noble and get them out by airmail. Price is a factor too because of postage and the exchange rate. I pay about one third more for the book and up to $15 for postage. It looks like a really good read.

Gosh, Carolyn, the postage is daunting. We'd have to find you a really good deal on a used book!

If we had a quorum, we'd probably do it in January. How much time would you need?

I had a thought. Since the book was first published in the UK, perhaps you could order it - and get it faster - and cheaper ordering from there? Here's a site of used copies from the UK - I see that Amazon has a UK store...

I'm a sucker for any of the 19th century English stuff - so if you're reading Jane Eyre, Wuthering H, Woman in White et.al please count me in. The idea of reading Thirteenth Tale alongside is intriguing.

This book looks just up my alley! And what a great selection for that LONG month of January.

I'm very excited to subscribe and even moreso by the illustrious company I'll be keeping as it looks so far!!

"Shall we consider reading one of the gothic tales mentioned in Diane Setterfield's novel,..." What a wonderful idea!

Count me in, please...

Alliemae

Yes! Rehabilitate the former academic into a lit star!

Joan the US is cheaper for us than the UK. Exchange rate for the UK is such that I would pay more than half again for the book and postage much on par with the US. Unfortunately this is the price we pay for living down here in Paradise! I will keep my eyes out for a used copy and if I can make the deadline I will. I will phone Whitcoulls here today and see if they have the book. Just sometimes I get lucky.

Carolyn

They have 58 copies at our largest book retailer believe it or not! There are 21 of those copies here in West Auckland - we are voracious readers out here. Im going to phone them and get a copy held for me to pick up on the weekend. Its a big fat book the person from the Book warehouse told me.

Carolyn

{{{Eustacia Vye!}}} We are delighted you have deigned to join us! A big Welcome to our circle!

Carolyn, that's wondderful! I couldn't stand the idea of your not participating because you couldn't get your hands on the book!

Hats, Carolyn, Hats, Gum, Kidsal, Alliemae, Laura, and Eustacia Vye, herself! I'd say we will go forward with The Thirteenth Tale - with only the companion piece to decide.

We seem to be arriving at an informal consensus to read Wilkie Collins' Woman in White as a companion piece - I hope you can find a copy of that old book? When in London two years ago we attended a play called "Woman in Black" and across the street "Woman in White" was showing. I wish now we'd chosen "white". Let's see what the others think. Although Diane Setterfield refers more often to Jane Eyre, maybe we are all looking forward to something new.

Is it "Woman in White" then? This is really going to be fun! I'll go find something more about it - the only thing I know is that Wilkie Collins was more popular among readers than Dickens was at the same time!

I think our library has Woman in White but I will just have to hope that its on the shelf for January. Its no use trying to get it til a few days before the discussion or it will have to go back and I won't have it to refer to.

The copy of The Thirteenth Tale is a paper back that I am getting and even so its $35 NZ. That is quite a bit for me but it looks such a good read I am ready to treat myself to it as an early Christmas present to myself.

Oh, I'm so all set!!!! I have had a copy of Woman in White for a long time - not yet read. I ordered The Thirteenth Tale after reading the reviews and started it but stopped as soon as I heard that you might be discusssing it. I hate to leave off at this point but I'd rather read it closer to the discussion! What a great combination those two books should make. I saw the play in London many years ago which was what pushed me to add the book to my "library" - also I do remember it being mentioned in English Lit. class ( about a half century or so ago!) Count me in, please!

There are plenty of copies of Woman in White available in our libraries. I have just checked the catalogue. There is also a couple of audio books. I am picking up The Thirteenth Tale on Sunday afternoon. I reserved a copy from my local branch of Whitcoulls. I thought I better do this as people are now doing Christmas shopping and its a big store with only 21 copies available. (20 now!)

Carolyn

Personally I would prefer to read Jane Eyre (just once more please!)

There is a new paperback reprint of the Woman in White out - I noticed a stack at my bookseller only yesterday - It's also available here in the cheap Wordsworth editions. I have a small old leatherbound copy hiding on my shelves but the print is small too so I may have to indulge in a new copy.

I guess how one sees January as a long month depends very much upon the weather. Here it can be HOT HOT HOT and long but SUMMERTIME with lots happening - the HOT is really not so bad in January - not when it gets so much worse during February and March. we're starting summer early by going to Sydney early December - for a few fast and furious weeks - then home at New Year

I put a hold on Thirteenth Tale at my library.

I don't know anything about Women in White.

I have a copy of Woman in White. It's interesting to know Wilkie Collins, at that time, was more popular than Charles Dickens. Now I need to get a copy of The Thirteenth Tale.

Since I have already read The Thirteenth Tale, I was not going to participate. However, with The Woman in White included, I couldn't resist. I was going to read The Woman in White for myself anyway, so my copy arrives today. I chose the Barnes and Noble Classic trade paperback. I have been very pleased with their editions in the past, but just don't read the back cover synopsis or the introduction because they contain spoilers.

Count me in. I have Woman in White at home and have been wanting to read that for a long time. I've reserved The Thirteenth Tale at the library although I'm way down the list, so I may have to put the book on my Christmas list.

Looking forward to it! Christy

From my reading of Wilkie Collins he was a bit more risque in his writing than Charles Dickins whose novels you could read to anyone. I have read some of Collins before.

A library near my older daughter has "The Thirteenth Tale", so I thought I would be all set come January. It never occurred to me there might be a waiting list. Timing would be important, of course. I don't want to read it too early, and certainly don't want to get it too late! I'll have to ask my daughter to check and see if I can reserve it for late December.

Babi

Well, we do have a quorum for Thirteenth Tale - (good to see you, Ginny Ann) but now we need to decide how to handle the companion piece - Woman in White. Concurrently? In January? Or first - before reading Thirteenth Tale. There are so many undertones of Woman in White in Thirteenth Tale! I'm up for doing the two together, but I do know that a number of you are planning on reading Pamuk's "Snow" in January too. For that reason, I think we ought to read just one at a time.

What do you think of discussing Wilkie's Woman in White first - in January and then do Thirteenth Tale in February and then the yet-to-be-decided Great Books selection in March? Hold off your reservation a bit, Babi until we make this big decision, okay?

Gum, I plan to read Jane Eyre on my own while reading Thirteenth Tale and interject relevant comments into the Tale discussion. Want to try that?

Thanks Joan for the invite.

I just reserved Women in White from my library. It says I only have 1 ahead of me for it. For The Thirteenth Tale I have 75 ahead of me. lol Next time I am in Borders I will have to look at it again. I may just buy it so I can underline as I go along.

JoanP - Jane Eyre on the side - I could try that -

If "The Thirteenth Tale" is as good as the classics you mentioned, it should be a great read.

I am open to any schedule since I have already read both Snow and The Thirteenth Tale. I do agree that reading and discussing The Woman in White at the same time as The Thirteenth Tale would be a bit much.

Here is a message Diane posted in the Barnes and Noble discussion when I mentioned not knowing of or having read The Woman in White:

"When I was writing The Thirteenth Tale I never seriously imagined that it would be received in the way it has, but nevertheless, like all would-be writers, I sometimes encouraged myself to stick at it when times were hard by indulging in a bit of day dreaming. And one of the things my idle mind used to present to me was the notion that if people read and liked my book, they might go to bookshops and buy copies of Jane Eyre and The Woman in White, and I used to take huge pleasure in imagining the joy they would have discovering these 'old' books they might have neglected to read before. So if anyone is thinking, Shall I? and hesitating over whether or not to take the plunge, do give it a go! Please!"

I replied to her as follows: "Diane, your dream has come true! I will be participating in a book discussion of The Woman in White after the first of the year, the origin of which was completely inspired by your book!"

Laura, thank you SO MUCH for bringing us that!

What do you think? Shall we read Diane Setterfield's book first - for inspiration to go on and read Woman in White, Jane Eyre, etc.
OR
Shall we read the "old, truly gothic novels first - to appreciate Setterfield's work?

After reading Laura's post, I'm inclined to go with Thirteenth Tale first - though we might not fully appreciate where she is coming from ...

What do YOU think?

ps. Ann and Ginny Ann, we are happy to have you join us!

Joan I would not be able to wait til Feb to read my book which I am picking up today. I have actually read a lot of the old British Gothic novels. I started reading with Jane Eyre at 11. I have read and reread many of them again and again.

Carolyn

I am equally open to reading either Satterfield or Collins first. Just so I know which, when.

Babi

I had decided not to overload with three books but if the great books is put off I will jump in here.(Snow is a must ). I went to the site Joan suggested and heard the author speak of her creative process. I noted some, but not all, of what she said and I will put it forth for those who can't receive the Audio on the site.

Dianne Setterfield : "I was always shy. I felt very ordinary and I never had the confidence to do what I really wanted to do. I finally figured out that though books are extroadinary, the writers are normal.

I was a square peg in a round hole. The support of my husband allowed me to leave tne University and work just part time teaching French That left me plenty of time to explore writing.

The first voice I heard was Miss Winter-Gradually a person emerged around the voice. The past that she discovers came later in the process. It was a complicated structure for a first novel. I was desperate to get the events to come out in the right order..It felt like an impossible task. I had to write thhe novel twice. The second time to make it seamless. Each writing took 18 months (36 in all).

I thought a lot about Patricia Highsmith while writing this .Her Ripley novels especially. The difficulty of a person having different sides that he showed to the public as compared to his private self.

As far as Miss winters story I had to work backward from the time she was old to what made her the way she became. It was the sense of discovery of a real person. Margaret was the most difficult. Hester took her over.. I'm the fondest of Hester. She could have written this book."

Judy

There is a new Barnes and Noble Edition of Wilkie Collins "The Woman in White".

Since I know Jane Eyre inside and out I will vote for the Collins book I've always had a desire to read it but never the final impetus to actually take it in hand.

Judy

Joan: - I do think one at a time would be better especially in view of the impact Snow will make.

I would be guided by you as to the sequence of 'Woman' and 'Tale' but no doubt the undertones of "Woman' in 'Tale' which you mention would be better understood if everyone had read 'Woman' first.

So I guess I'm saying Woman (January), Tale (Feb) and Great Books selection (March)

Would like to read Woman in White first, then Thirteeth Tale.

Judy, thank you so much for bringing us the interview with Diane Setterfield! I can't get it to load before it times out.

I really liked this - "I finally figured out that though books are extroadinary, the writers are normal." Do you agree with this? How can an ordinary person come up with an extraordinary piece of work?

I liked the idea of the "voices" of the characters coming to her - before the plot. I have to disagree - I think Diane Setterfield is an extraordinary person!

It seems that the majority are leaning towards "Woman in White" first, Carolyn - but not by much. Most are leaving it to us. I can understand how difficult it is not to go ahead with the 13th Tale when it's sitting right in front of you! Pity me - I started to read the book weeks ago and as I read I thought it might be a good book for discussion - and stopped reading with 150 pages to go, so I really don't know how it will turn out. I want to share that experience here.

Carolyn, would you be able to stop reading 13th Tale if you started it and picked up Woman in White for January and then finished Tale in February with us? and pick up Woman in White

Joan I am better not to pick the book up.

Carolyn

This sounds like a good book to read in dark, dreary January. Count me in.

Juanita

Juanita, happy to have you join us. We may do Wilkie Collins' Woman in White first in January and THEN Diane Setterfield's The Thirteenth Tale Stay tuned. I see a warm January and February here!

I have no doubt that January & February will be warm here - hot in fact!

Gum, I keep forgetting your Australian "winters" -

Will you be reading "Snow"?

Hi, Joan ~ this looks interesting, but I'd like to know more. I'm not at all into "Gothic" but perhaps the review you linked over emphasized that characteristic. Is that the true emphasis?
Could you put up a little more about the books' connection?
Did an old post explain why the Collins book connection ought to be read at the same time?
Which should we buy first? or are you going to do both books at once? How would that work?
I was busy with f2f volunteer activities for a few days, and lost the thread.

Mippy, I lost the thread too. I don't know which book is going to be read first.

I don't think a decision has been made yet about the reading order? I don't really have a preference. I won't be reading Pamuk's Snow in January so I think I could manage reading both Woman and Tale at the same time, but would certainly be happy to read one in January and the other in February. (I may or may not revisit Jane Eyre on the side. I feel like this line of reading could branch off forever... Would Wide Sargasso Sea have to be next?)

Christy

Good idea, Joan, to start with WIW. Just saw a production of it--weird and fun.

I didn't sign up, because I'm not sure of my time frame early next year, but I've been lurking, and I would like to comment on "The Woman in White". It's a favorite of mine; I've read it several times, and this discussion prompted me to read it again. But it's not a light read. My small print paperback is 564 pages of florid Victorian prose and the plot is complex.

So my advice would be to read it either before or after "The Thirteenth Tale", not simultaneously. I'll join you in the discussions if I can, but I don't want to promise yet. You've had enough of seeing me drop out.

Pat H, You made my day by saying (You've had enough of seeing me drop out) hey I thought that I was the only one that has done that but unexpected things happen in life that are out of our contol. I have always felt bad about it but realize our discussion leaders are human and understanding but it is always nice to let them know why we were not able to partisapate if posiable.

PatH - were your ears tingling? Did you hear my silent wish that you would join this discussion? (PatH and JoanK are our resident twins here in the Books! The Thirteenth Tale is the story of two sets of twins.) We are happy to have you with us - with however much time you have, Pat - you too, Gingee! Welcome to the both of you!

Pat, thank you for filling us in on the length - and depth of the Woman in White. We had made the decision not to do both novels at the same time....but I can see the challenge now to cover the Woman in a month. We'll do our best. And if we don't quitefinish, we'll move into The Thirteenth Tale on Feb. 1 anyway.

Hats, Mippy, I can see where you have "lost the thread" - there's so much of it! Let's unravel the confusion right now. This should make everyone happy - except our Carolyn, who really can't wait to get started!
Woman in White - January
The Thirteenth Tale - February

When I get home - (from paradise - am on the Gulf side of Florida - spent the morning gathering shells on Sanibel Island. Don't know why I do that - some sort of urge to bring home the perfect conch shells.

When I get home to leaf raking and woolies later this week, I'll get up a header and open a new discussion for Woman in White - Then let's talk about gothic literature, Diane Setterfield and her fascination with this literary period. And oh yes, the connection between Woman and White and The Thirteenth Tale - as Eustacia puts it - "weird and fun" literature.

Will try to get the new discussion up on Friday or Saturday.

If we're reading "Snow" in January, it might be easier to read "The Thirteenth Tale" then, since I suspect it would be an easier and faster read than "Woman in White". Whatever is decided, I'm all set! Already have an old copy of WIW - 625 pages! - and just received "Snow" from Amazon.

I've had "The Thirteenth Tale" since the reviews first came out and have been dying to start it but will wait for the discussion.

Jonathan mentioned "Castle Rackrent" some time ago as a great Gothic read. I just found a copy of it published over a hundred years ago but the type is large and clear and the paper is in great condition. Those old books were made to last!! Maybe sometime we'll read that one together!

Where are you reading Snow??

Oh, enjoy Sanibel, JoanP ! It's one of my favorite places! I especially like the birding at the National Park named "Ding Darling" after the famous cartoonist. While collecting shells, did you see any tropical birds?
(email you if you don't want to stray off topic as much as this)

Thanks for the heads up on the January book. I'll order it soon!

Kidsal: I can't find the "Snow" discussion anymore!! I need to know where, too! All I know is that it was proposed as a good follow-up to "My Name Is Red", also appropriate since Pamuk won the Nobel. I believe Jonathan is to lead the discussion. I don't know what happened to the "thread" ( is that what you call a discussion?)

Help!! Help!!

I went to the library today and ordered WIW . The Librarian searched all over San Jose and surrounding Silicon Valley Cities and found that all copies except one had been borrowed in the last two weeks. An old book, almost forgotten and a run on it all of a sudden-why is that?

I explained about Senior Net Book Club and he was fascinated by the concept. Maybe we should find a way to let other senior readers get to know us.

Be that as it may I will get my book in a week or two .

Judy

Thanks, for the 'wakeup', Joan R. About SNOW. You must be wondering if it was just an unreliable forecast. But it is coming. And I'm happy to hear that your SNOW has arrived. I'm going to get going on a header with announcements.

I've been caught up myself in all the excitement and anticipation of this discussion. Isn't it a tough decision? What to read first? WIW, or the 13th. I'm about 50 pages into WIW. What a great tale.

January should see all of us ensconced in our reading chairs in front of a fireplace of blazing discussions.

And then there is Castle Rackrent. Should we do that in December? That would really whet our appetites for what's to come.

Jonathan

What is Castle Rackrent? Where, when or who?

Judy

From Amazon.com: Castle Rackrent - During the 1790s, with Ireland in political crisis, Maria Edgeworth made a surprisingly rebellious choice: in Castle Rackent, her first novel, she adopted an Irish Catolic voice to narrate the decline of a family from her own Anglo-Irish class. Castle Rackrent's narrator, Thady Quirk, gives us four generations of Rackrent heirs - Sr Patrick, the dissipated spendthrift; Sir Murtagh, the litigating fiend; Sir Kit, the brutal husband and gambling absentee; and Sir Condy, the lovable and improvident dupe of Thady's own son, Jason. With this satire on Anglo-Irish landlords Edgeworth pioneered the regional novel and inspired Sir Walter Scott's Waverly (1814). She also changed the focus of conflict in Ireland from religion to class and boldly predicted the rise of the Irish Catholic Boiurgeoisie. A Memoir of the Rackrent Family -- humorous and biting social satire.

Ahhahaha...Jonathan are you recommending Castle Rackrent? Thanks for bringing us the description of the story, kidsal. It sounds intriguing. I have never heard of it. Jonathan, are you proposing to lead it? when

We have quite an ambitious schedule planned for the new year already - beginning with Woman in White on January 2 (just opened that discussion - if you are planning to join us, would love to hear from you - Here - Woman in White.)

I've begun the book and can already see parallels between Wilkie Collins book and Diane Setterfield's. We'll discuss Thirteenth Tale in February.

Realistically, it will be difficult to add the elected Great Book title in March - as was planned before Woman in White became a full-blown discussion on its own. So I think it's best to put off that vote for another month - vote in February, and discuss in April. We'll leave the nominations open though - if you have a title you'd like to add, we'd love to hear it. The nominations are open here, in Great Books Upcoming

Hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving and that your diet is back to normal. Wish you were here to help me finish up the leftovers!

Castle Rackrent is a very short read -- 121 pages in my Penquin edition. Also with this edition is her other novel Ennui set in Ireland.

Have you read Castle Rackrent, kidsal? It was written a wee bit earlier than these gothic tales we are looking at (but not much). I wonder if you are finding these elements of the gothic novel in the Castle?

I am reading it now, but it doesn't have the same feeling of a Gothic novel as The Mysteries of Udolpho (1794) which has all the elements of Gothic. I also have Castle of Otranto which I haven't read. It was published in 1764 and is probably the first Gothic novel. Its review covers all the spooky elements. The only thing I recognize as Gothic in Castle of Rachrent is one of the wives is sealed up in her room for many years. But so far I haven't run across any ghosts, strange sounds in the night, danger, etc.

Have you noticed how frequently castles appear in Gothic novels? I suppose they are tailor-made for the genre. Dim, chill, damp and gloomy. With dungeons, of course.

Babi

Castles or in latter Gothic novels large spooky mansions.

Carolyn

Here's a dumb question I've been thinking about this afternoon - what is a castle? "Dim, chill, damp and gloomy" as Babi says. Old? Huge? Remote? Do they all have dunjeons? What's the difference between a castle and a mansion, Carolyn? A big mansion? Is the castle the home of royalty? Are Gothic novels all set in England? The mansions must belong to the titled upper class at this time, yes?

I've read some, (but not the denouement) of Thirteenth Tale...and to tell the truth, I can't tell when it is set. It will be fun to reread with you and see if there are any tell-tale clues.

When I think of castles I think of the formal forts that had walls with sentry posts. There is a open area where the tradesmen take care of the the royalty's stuff and animals. Then you go past a second gate to the dwelling proper. The earlier castles had the provisions and such on the lower level and many stairs to where the family actually lived. The floor below the family was where the royal guards slept and ate.

Mansions are a newer invention. They are usually larger with many wings. They were built for the wealthy not just royalty. They were built for show and pomp and power. They weren't forts.

A mansion is a large and stately dwelling house for the wealthy. The word itself derives (through Old French) from the Latin word mansus the perfect passive participle of manere "to remain" or "to stay". In the Roman Empire, a mansio was an official stopping place on a Roman road, or via, where cities sprang up, and where the villas of provincial officials came to be placed. The English word "manse" originally defined a property large enough for the parish priest to maintain himself, but a mansion is no longer self-sustaining in this way (compare a Roman or medieval villa). 'Manor' comes from the same root— territorial holdings granted to a lord who would remain there— hence it is easy to see how the word 'Mansion' came to have its meaning.

Castles:

http://www.castlewales.com/cast_def.html

GINNY ANN is right. Castles were originally fortresses, and defense was far more important than comfort. So you had stone walls and small windows, and the horses, men, and necessary crafts - like armorer - all located inside the outer walls. It wasn't until there were peaceful times and more 'law and order' that royalty began to build palaces instead of castles.

Babi

Thanks for the research, Ginny Ann. So, do you feel that these gothic novels are set in stately mansions, as opposed to "castles", Babi? The once-stately "mansions" in these stories seem to be fairly run down and in remote areas, don't they? Badly in need of repair, which requires capital the fading nobility no longer has at its disposal.

Have you noticed there are also madhouses, mental asylums. Madness seems to occupy the gothic writer's attention.

Thanks for the research, Ginny Ann. So, do you feel that these gothic novels are set in stately mansions, as opposed to "castles." Babi? The once-stately "mansions" in these stories seem to be fairly run down and in remote areas, don't they? Badly in need of repair, which requires capital the fading nobility no longer has at its disposal.

Have you noticed there are also madhouses, mental asylums. Madness seems to occupy the gothic writer's attention.

JOAN, perhaps there is a causal relationship between the gloomy castles and run-down mansions, and the madhouses. If I were pent up in either one, I can see where a little madness would help.

Babi

Babi, your post on the causal relationship between the madhouses and being pent-up in the gloomy castles and run down mansions made me think. Scrawler recently posted in Woman in WHite -

"When "novels" first came on the market they were written primarily for women and most of the accepted writers of the day were men. The category "gothic romance" falls under the heading of "Romance Fiction." So although some "gothic novels" were written by such authors as the Bronte sisters and George Eliot the majority of the books in the 1800s were written in this category by men for women."

I can see where women felt pent-up - whether in castles, run-down mansions or not...the gothic novels, for them could be considered "asylums" of sorts, don't you think?

I can't imagine being as constrained as the women were in those days. They probably did feel like they were trapped in their castles or homes.

Moll Flandersby Daniel Defoe(1722) set the format for the romance novel genre. When I read it for a class at college it felt very modern. Action not started in a castle or mansion, but Newgate Prison. For some reason I love this book.

Well, the fortress castles were pretty much a thing of the past by the 1800's, but women were still quite restricted in what they could do. Unless you were really into sketching, embroidering, and visiting with friends, life could be very dull. Definitely a market there for escapist Romance literature. A sort of 'asylum', JOAN

That lifestyle applied to the 'upper' classes, of course. The women of the 'lower' class were generally working too hard to read romances, assuming they'd had an opportunity to learn to read.

Babi

Carolyn, I've started Wilkie Collins' Women in White and am marvelling again at the way women were treated at this time - the wealthy ones, I mean. I've been trying to decide whether I'd like to have been one of the haves or the have nots. At least those without the fortunes were free to choose whom they married. I think.

You likened the conditions to entrapment - castles, asylums, and now Ginny Ann brings up Newgate prison. I guess I'd still choose living in the turret of a remote "castle" with a husband who only loved my money over an asylum or a prison - as long as I had my books with me! How about you, Babi? What a choice!

Ginny Ann - you might suggest DeFoe's Moll Flanders in the Great Books Upcoming discussion as a future adventure.

I agree, JOAN. If you must be miserable, at least be as comfortable as possible. And you might actually have a husband you came to love and who loved you! Then, there is always the chance of children to love. I don't think anyone sane would choose an asylum or prison. In fact, I don't think the insane would choose an asylum of those days.

Babi

Sorry. I posted in the wrong place. Excuse me.

I just finished reading "The Thirteenth Tale" last evening.

After a slow start, it turned into a page turner and I sat up late two nights in a row to finish it.

It is a great book and should be a very good discussion.

Unfortunately, I have to return it to the library, but will try to get on the list to check it out again when the discussion starts.

Evelyn

Evelyn, I hope you can get the book back from your library. I've heard there are waiting lists in most libraries.

Will be putting up a discussion schedule shortly - a caveat: it's more difficult to discuss a mystery if you have read to the end and know how it ends. Takes discipline - which I don't have!

Don't forget - "Jane Eyre" is to be broadcast tonight on PBS - Part I. I just set my VCR as the guys will be watching football on our only TV. Ninety minutes. Ms. Setterfield refers to Jane Eyre on a number of occasions in her novel. Total immersion into the gothic novel!

I watched Part I of Jane Eyre last night, JOAN. Mr. Rochester as portrayed in this film was quite different from the image I had of him from the book. More likable, in my mind. I remember the book as so somber and dark. I think I like the film better. Enjoy!

Babi

BaBi, I had the same feeling about Rochester. In fact, for me, the film didn't quite capture the spirit of the book.

I don't think I actually said I would join this discussion, but I will. The book is on it's way.

Considering how oppressive the spirit of the book was, PAT, I'm glad it didn't. The film Rochester had not become as bitter and harsh under his burden, as the literary Rochester. Consequently, I found myself more sympathetic with the former, and cared more about what happened to him. Better handled, IMO, then the Bronte original.

Babi

Scrawler - an interesting Contrast between the Gothic romance and Romantic suspense. I've read in many sources that Wilkie Collins produced the first novel of suspense and I'll agree with you that Woman in White has elements of the Gothic romance - and then some. Collins has taken the Gothic romance a step further.

After watching the PBS Masterpiece Theater production of "Jane Eyre" last night, I just had to find out when it was written. Charlotte Bronte wrote it in 1847, thirteen years before Wilkie wrote Woman in White. So many of the elements in C. Bronte's story we see in Woman in White. How many did you notice?

The look-alike Dent twins...I'll bet you picked up on them, Pat. Funny I don't remember reading about them in the novel, but can't believe they were made for tv and I haven't read Jane Eyre in years.

Also, the conversation between Jane and Mr. Rochester regarding Adele's father. Because she didn't LOOK like Mr. R., he couldn't be her father.
How about the after-dinner conversation regarding the novel, "The Beast Within" - remember that discussion on whether someone guilty of a crime can go undetected?

The Ouija Board game - touches of the supernatural. Same with the fortune teller. As Scrawler points out - "we have "feelings" of the supernatural in the gothic romances, but Of course, nothing supernatural is occurring"

I too felt we missed a lot of the book, but we get the plot. "I did think that the "mood" music added very much to the movie which of course no book can ever give you." Scrawler, I think the mood music took the place of the author's words to create the atmosphere. Otherwise, all we get of Charlotte Bronte is plot and dialog. The cinematography did the same thing...created the mood.

I'm looking forward to see how Diane Setterfield incorporated the Gothic elements of these novels she grew up loving in her Thirteenth Tale.

ps. I thought Mr. Rochester was too cute in a Hugh Grant kind of way. He's supposed to be formidable, unapproachable even. But it's a good story, and as Babi says, it wasn't "oppressive." To me, the more oppressive the story, the better the ending - no where to go, but UP!

I have started the book and trying to practice discipline but have to return it to library so temptation is strong. I do love 19thC fiction, so looking forward to the discussion

I just found where I put my Thirteenth Tale. Had to move it to make room for my space heater.

My Library copy just arrived for The Woman In White. With our gas leak problem I got behind trying to read it on line. Five days without heat in NE Ohio isn't fun. But I own Tale

lucky you - today I am sweltering in 42 degree C heat (West Australia) - what a pity we cannot get even temps. (nothing to complain about then!) Still we have our lovely books to read and share!

I't the 29th already?!! I've lost track of time here. Now I'm going to have to scramble to get to the library that has this book; the nearest one doesn't. Shame on me.

Babi

I'm so happy there is someone minding the store while I am sunning in sunny Florida. Actually it sounds like a dream vacation, but until today I have been without computer access and I never dreamed I'd have such withdrawal symptoms!

If I had been connected at home, I'd have sent reminders to all who expressed interest in the Thirteenth Tale - and Babi would have located the book by now.

Ginny Ann, we missed you in Woman in White but look forward to seeing you in Thirteenth Tale.
Such a story! Another mystery - and difficult to discuss if you know how it ends. As Wainey says, it's hard to put down once you get going. I'm sure that if you do finish, there will be plenty to chat about - but you have to work very hard not to let anything slip out.

On Thursday we will address the first 115 pages. I'm trying to figure out whose story this will turn out to be - Margaret Lea's or Vida Winters. I'm thinking that Ms. Setterfield intends Margaret to be the gothic heroine type - but Vida's story, her stage in life is really getting to me. But there I go, getting ahead and we haven't even started! See you all back here on Thursday!