Secret Life of Bees, The ~ Sue Monk Kidd ~ 12/02
patwest
October 21, 2003 - 06:41 pm
SECRET LIFE OF BEES
"A moving first novel......Lily is an authentic and winning character, and her story is compellingly told."
.......USA TODAY
"Inspiring.............Sue Monk Kidd is a direct descendant of Carson McCullers."
..........THE BALTIMORE SUN
About the Author
Sue Monk Kidd, author of the highly acclaimed memoirs The Dance of the Dissident Daughter and When the Heart Waits, has won a Poets & Writers award, a Katherine Anne Porter Award, and a Bread Loaf scholarship. Two of her short stories--including an excerpt from The Secret Life of Bees--were selected as notable stories in Best American Short Stories. The Secret Life of Bees was nominated for the prestigious Orange Prize for fiction in England.
Discussion Questions
1. Had you ever heard of _kneeling on grits_ before? What qualities did Lily have that allowed her to survive, endure and eventually thrive, despite T. Ray?
2. Who is the queen bee in this story?
3. Lily's relationship to her dead mother was complex, ranging from guilt, to idealization, to hatred, to acceptance.
What happens inside a daughter when she discovers her mother once abandoned her?
Is Lily right__ would people generally rather die than forgive?
Was it harder for Lily to forgive her mother or herself?
4.Were you surprised to learn that T. Ray used to be different, that once he truly loved Deborah?
How do you think Deborah_s leaving affected him?
Did it shed any light on why T. Ray was so cruel and abusive to Lily?
5. Lily grew up without her mother, but in the end she finds a house full of them.
Have you ever had a mother figure in your life who wasn_t your true mother?
Have you ever had to leave home to find home?
6. What compelled Rosaleen to spit on the three men_s shoes?
Did something in her finally say _Enough!_?
Can you imagine yourself in her situation?
What does it take for a person to stand up with conviction against brutalizing injustice?
What did you like best about Rosaleen?
7. Had you ever heard of the Black Madonna? What do you think of the story surrounding the Black Madonna in the novel?
How would the story be different if it had been a picture of a white Virgin Mary?
The women in the pink house drew consolation and power from the Black Madonna. Do you know women whose lives have been deepened or enriched by a connection to an empowering Divine Mother?
8. Many women in our society are isolated from other women.
Why is it important that women come together?
What did you think of the _Calendar Sisters_ and the Daughters of Mary? How did being in the company of this circle of females transform Lily?
9. May built a wailing wall to help her come to terms with the pain she felt inside. Even though we don_t have May_s _condition,_ do we also need private and public _rituals,_ like wailing walls, to help us deal with our grief and suffering?
10. How would you describe Lily and Zach_s relationship?
What drew them together?
Could you appreciate how taboo their love was in the South in 1964?
Did you root for them to be together?
11. Project into the future. Does Lily ever see her father again?
Does she become a beekeeper? A writer?
What happens to Rosaleen?
What happens with Lily and Zach?
Who would Zach be today?
LINKS
Black Madonnas
The Original Black Madonna |
SCHEDULE FOR BEES
December 1............................Chapters 1 - 4
December 8............................Chapters 5 - 9
December 15............................Chapters 10 - 14
December 22............................Conclusion and Summing Up
(Early adjournment because of Christmas)
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Discussion Leader: Lorrie
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Lorrie
October 21, 2003 - 09:40 pm
This is proposed for December 1.
There has been much talk about this popular book, so let's see if we can get up a quorum and have a discussion. As most of you know, we must have at least four people, including the DL, in order to begin a new discussion. So post your name here if you are interested in joining us. Let's hear it from everyone!!
Lorrie
BaBi
October 22, 2003 - 09:03 am
This is a book I definitely plan to read, so if it does go up for discussion I'll buzz by. ...Babi
Lorrie
October 22, 2003 - 11:13 am
Hahaha Babi! Very good, I'll be hoping that when you buy the book you don't get stung!
I can see we are going to be in for a rush of terrible puns, it's almost inevitable.
Lorrie
BaBi
October 23, 2003 - 11:54 am
Don't tell anybody, but I like puns. That's almost enough to ruin one's reputation!
Lorrie
October 23, 2003 - 06:45 pm
Mum's the word, kiddo!
Lorrie
Traude S
October 23, 2003 - 07:04 pm
LORRIE,
all things being equal, I'll be with you for the BEES discussion.
The book was a recent choice of our live book group, and we had a truly productive, far-ranging discussion.
There are many more things to be crammed into my schedule before mid November, but I plan on being here with you in December.
GingerWright
October 23, 2003 - 07:21 pm
All Right you have two here now, Who Will Make it Three?
Lorrie
October 23, 2003 - 10:23 pm
Yes, Ginger, do I hear three?
Traude, that's wonderful! I am so glad that you feel well enough to join in our discussion---I appreciate your thoughtful posts in any of them. Welcome, welcome! I will be sending you an answer to your email very soon.
Lorrie
annafair
October 24, 2003 - 10:35 am
But My book arrived and I have already started it....perhaps I should wait some before I continue..anna
judywolfs
October 24, 2003 - 12:32 pm
and I loved it. I'll be here in December.
JudyW
CallieK
October 24, 2003 - 05:26 pm
"Secret Life of Bees" is the November selection for a "live" Book Discussion in which I participate. I'd like to join this one when it begins.
Callie
P.S. I have read the book.
Lorrie
October 24, 2003 - 06:36 pm
Okay! Now we are making progress!
Annafair: Sure, it's okay to read the book now, Callie already has, but just don't forget we won't be starting this discussion until the 1st of December, tentatively, just don't forget any of it.
Judy W: Good for you! I am always glad to see your name.
Callie K: I'm hoping tha, having read it, you may be able to give us some insights that you heard from your own group?
Babi, Traude, AnnaFair, JudyW, and Callie, and with myself we have more than enough for our quorum. So now we can be moved up to coming, instead of proposed. Later i will have a schedule for up in the heading, plus a series of questions I will furnish.
This is so great!
Lorrie
ALF
October 25, 2003 - 11:41 am
Lorrie
October 25, 2003 - 03:11 pm
Oh, Andy, I am so sorry! How could I forget our Nurse Ratchett! I feel like my mother must have felt when, on a trip to Grandma's and after having stopped for gas and bathroom calls at a filling station on the way, we went forty miles before my mother discovered my baby brother was missing. Of course we went back and found him blithely sitting on the owner's desk eating an ice cream cone. I was sorry we went back
Lorrie
ALF
October 26, 2003 - 05:07 am
judywolfs
October 27, 2003 - 11:51 am
Lorrie that's a riot, your parents taking off without your little brother. When that happened with my little sister, we (the 5 other kids stuffed into the back seat with the dog) pretended not to notice, and didn't say a word to our parents. She had been being such a brat, and the back seat was way too crowded. Our parents discoved her missing after only about 15 miles, and went back for her. We kids denied everything, of course.
macou33
October 31, 2003 - 08:57 pm
I plan on participating in this discussion. Really enjoyed the book quite a while back. Guess I'll have to scan through it again as my memory of books sometimes tends to fade just a bit with age!! hehe Mary
Lorrie
October 31, 2003 - 11:48 pm
Macou33!
Great! Yes, scan through and come and join us when we read this book on December 1. we will look for you! Welcome.
Lorrie
Hats
November 3, 2003 - 06:30 am
Hi Lorrie, I read Secret Life of Bees a long while back too. I remember enjoying it. It is one of my favorite books. I will try to get the book again and look it over.
Lorrie
November 3, 2003 - 08:37 am
HATS!!! It's so good to see your name here. Please do try to join us in this discussion! I know you will enjoy it.
Lorrie
MmeW
November 4, 2003 - 05:43 pm
Hi, all! I have heard the buzz about the book, and think I'd like to join in too. I've been away too long, but nothing piqued (French for bite) my interest up till now. I'll wing my way back from a long weekend in the Bay area on the 2nd, so I'll join you honeys then. (Love puns myself, Babi!)
Lorrie
November 4, 2003 - 06:28 pm
MmeW! WELCOME BACK, PUNS AND ALL!
It will be good to see you posting again, and we will even forgive you for those awful puns! Hahahha
Lorrie
Roseda
November 5, 2003 - 09:13 pm
My sister passed this book on to me several months back and I read it and liked it very much. Now I have passed it on to my neice so she can ejoy it and read it to her children as it really is a keeper as books go.
Lorrie
November 5, 2003 - 11:13 pm
Thank you, Roseda, I'm so glad you liked the book.
Lorrie
tigerliley
November 7, 2003 - 06:58 am
I read the book sometime back and couldn't put it down...I have passed it on.....I believe this is this author's first novel.....She has written many books on spiritual matters.....Her book "Dissendent Daughter" was most interesting and totally different for her......
macou33
November 14, 2003 - 02:10 pm
Hello all, I went to the library today to get the book for a quick re-read before the discussion and discovered that it has been reserved for 10 people ahead of me. I may have to just lurk along in the discussion as it has been a little time since I read it. I'm curious about why it is in such demand at this time. Mary
Roseda
November 14, 2003 - 03:34 pm
Well our book here has hit the number one best seller list this week in the paperbacks.
BaBi
November 15, 2003 - 09:55 am
I HAVE MY COPY! Ready, set.... Babi
Lorrie
November 15, 2003 - 06:31 pm
Now, you can compliment yourselves on being astute enough to know a winner, and pick the right book for discussion! Time is creeping up, have you all read the book yet? I am only on Chapter 2, and I have trouble keeping awake at night when I'm reading it. Not the book, of course, it's the medication I take, but it's slow reading.
I will post the schedule soon in the heading. Is it satisfactory with you all that we read the book together, and comment as we go along?
I have found this is much easier for late-comers and for people who have had difficulty getting the book. Or would you rather discuss the book as a whole, enabling some of our posters to jump from place to place in the sequence? This is sometimes awkward with a four week duration. Up to you, majority rules.
Lorrie
BaBi
November 16, 2003 - 01:59 pm
Depending on the book/article/story, a month is sometimes more time than is needed for a satisfying discussion. And sometimes there is so much commentary the posts take longer to read than the subject! No telling, Lorrie. I just go with the flow. ..Babi
Lorrie
November 16, 2003 - 02:34 pm
Oh, Babi, it's so reassuring when I get an answer like that. I will never cease to be amazed at the willingness and consideration that I have found among our readers here in SeniorNet since I volunteered to be a Discussion Leader. I admire, and have an affection for, most of the wonderful posters who keep coming back to join in our discussions, and
I am sure this is going to be a great one. So if there are no other objections I will post a tentative schedule.
Lorrie
MmeW
November 17, 2003 - 09:06 am
I have the book in hand! But heck, if I read it now, I'd have no idea of what I'd read by December 1. I'll probably take it on my trip and get started then. Any schedule you devise will be OK, but I'll be gone again over Christmas. December's a tough month to get everyone together, so we'll just have to be flexible.
Lorrie
November 17, 2003 - 02:18 pm
Mmw: See what i mean? Great accomadating here! I'm sure we will work something out, Mmw, and remember, by Christmas we should be closing down the discussion pretty much. In fact, I had planned to break off fairly early to adjust for the Holidays.
Time is nearing, and I am looking forward so much to this!
Lorrie
camper2
November 18, 2003 - 05:11 pm
Hi All,
I too have read this book and will be looking forward to your discussion. I don't offer anything when this happens because I don't want to give anything away in case my memory kicks in ahead of time! I'm catching on to the lingo now and I understand.....that makes me a lurker!
Marge
Lorrie
November 18, 2003 - 11:54 pm
That's all right, Marge. You are still very welcome, and perhaps during the discussion you might get a huge brain wave and make a really pithy comment! Hahaha
Lorrie
paulita
November 27, 2003 - 08:07 am
I'm new to Senior Net and this will be a great start for me as I too have read the book for a live book group discussion - and believe you me there was a lively discussion. It's a wonderful "read" and I'm delighted to have a chance to re-visit it.
Lorrie
November 27, 2003 - 08:56 am
Wonderful, Paulita!
You can tell us how your "live" book club received the book, and we're anxious to hear your opinions. Time's getting short! Is everyone ready>
Lorrie
annafair
November 27, 2003 - 09:03 am
And am anxious to start the discussion ..It was one of the most satisfying books I have read in awhile. It took more than one sitting but only because I CANT SIT THAT LONG!!!!!! Will review it according to the pages being discussed ..but I can understand why it is in such demand....anna
camper2
November 28, 2003 - 05:33 pm
paulita,
I love reading everyone's posts on the books as I'm sure you will too. If memory serves me right I don't believe May's wailing wall was public was it? I'll pick the book up again from the library...
I am a vounteer with handicapped (as in developmentally handicapped)people and find it takes many forms. The wailing wall was a coping mechanism for her. If emotions overide the ability to reason and apply logic many such handicapped people will find a way to deal with a situation that is overwhelming them at the momemt which is socially acceptable. Though disconcerting, it worked for May.
Dorothy
November 29, 2003 - 08:51 am
I must say the title of this book scared me to death-I just have to hear the sound of a bee and I'm under cover but I got the book and couldn't put it down. I'll wait for the schedule for discussion.Tudy
Lorrie
November 29, 2003 - 09:56 am
All right, everyone, we will be discussing the first four chapters of this book on Monday, Dec. 1. What a nice group of people we have assembled here---I look forward to reading along with you all.
Camper2, I like your analysis of May's own "wailing wall." Your job working with developmentally handicapped must be rewarding, I sometimes wish that my health would permit me to do volunteer work again at the Food shelf. I loved that job.
Never fear, Tudy! You won't get stung here, I promise!
Lorrie
paulita
November 29, 2003 - 02:08 pm
Just back from the library and to my surprise and delight The Secret Life...was on display in the Books on Tape section - unabridged, which is even better. I wanted the book to brush up since I've already read it, but what fun it will be to listen to it - sometimes gives one a slightly different slant. I'll miss seeing those wonderful little headings that start off each chapter. They'll be included, of course, but I like to stop and think about them for a minute or two.... See you on the 1st.
Lorrie
December 1, 2003 - 12:08 am
All Right! Now we begin!
I would like to start out with one of the questions asked above, "Have you ever heard of "kneeking on grits" before? I haven't, but from what I can gather from the way Lily describes it, it must be painful as can be. Right away that tells me something about T. Ray and why she was anxious to get away from him. Kneeling on grits as a form of punishment seems very abusive.
What was your impression of he snuff-chewing Rosaleen?
Lorrie
BaBi
December 1, 2003 - 08:38 am
When T-Ray threatened Lily with the "Martha White", my reaction was: "Huh? What is that? The only 'Martha White' I know are the mixes." And that turned out to be the correct Martha White. What a painful punishment, and how did T. Ray come of think of that?
As I read on, I saw the man obviously knew nothing about the needs of a young girl,..or he just doesn't care. More and more it became apparent that he didn't care for his daughter.
Early on (page 2) Lily says "People who think dying is the worst thing don't know a thing about life." What a depressingly mature observation from a young girl. Already, we know Lily is in trouble.
..Babi
Dorothy
December 1, 2003 - 09:50 am
I had the same reaction BaBi as you. I thought it was the name of a mix. And then I thought how cruel too could a man be not even to allow his daughter to read books while she was all alone trying to sell peaches for him. I wondered too at Lily's mother's way of getting rid of bugs-not wanting to kill them outright. How different could two people be and how did they ever get together.
Do a ny of you think T Ray was trying to get back at his wife for leaving him by being so cruel to Lily?
Lorrie
December 1, 2003 - 10:07 am
Do you all see that cute little banner we have down here on the lower left hand side? Our thanks to the banner-makers!
Be back in a moment.
Lorrie
mjbaker
December 1, 2003 - 10:09 am
T.Ray is about the nastiest character I've encountered in a book lately.
I was surprised that he actually had paid Lily for working in the peach stand, since he was so stingy about everything else.
I hope I am not jumping ahead of the first 4 chapters, but one of the saddest things Lily said was that one time in church, she thought maybe T Ray loved her a little, since he smiled at her because she was holding her hymnal upside down. Can you imagine - he was so mean he never had a smile for her? And I certainly never heard of the grits punishment.
My opinion of Rosaleen - she is probably typical of the black domestic worker at that time. I was surprised when she poured the snuff juice (ugh!) on the men's shoes, though. And I admired her for wanting to register to vote - that took a lot of courage.
Perhaps she didn't express it, but I thought she loved Lily.
Marilyn
Lorrie
December 1, 2003 - 10:51 am
No, Marilyn you are not jumping the gun. On page 25, right at the bottom, it is mentioned, along with he realization that Lily has, that her father never really loved her.
I felt such pity when i read how all Lily wanted for her birthday was a small charm bracelet, and yes, Bibi, when Lily says, on page 2, "People who think dying is the worst thing don't know a thing about life," I thought that was depressingly indicative.
If there are any doubts at all about the love that Rosaleen has for Lily, just read on page 13 where Rosaleen interceded in a face-off with T-Ray as he confronted his daughter. Lily thinks "His boots whispered Uncle all the way down the hall. I thought, she loves meand it was the first time such a far-fetched idea had occurred to me.
Lorrie
Lorrie
December 1, 2003 - 04:03 pm
I was dismayed at Lily's conception of her self-worth. What a loveless childhood that poor litle girl had! And when one of her teachers derided her for not wanting more out of life than to go to "Beauty School," (page 16) Lily was shocked at the possibilities that could await her.
As a book lover, too, I was furious when I read how T.Ray diminished her desire to read. His sarcastic put-downs were meant to discourage Lily's desire to read books, and they almost succeeded.
**********************************************************
Does anyone have any ideas as to why Rosealeen became so daring on their walk to town? She could easily have slunk by those creeps in front of the gas station, but instead did the absolute worst---she spat snuff juice on their shoes, an unthinkable act at that time and in that place. It's almost like a death wish---surely she knew what aould happen.
Lorrie
paulita
December 1, 2003 - 04:20 pm
Knowing how it all turns out from an earlier reading it's fun hearing first impressions - I'm listening to it on tape and love being reminded of all the little things I'd forgotten - I also see now how much foreshadowing there is - Makes me really appreciate the skill of the author. I'm one who never looks at the ending, but maybe some books should be read twice.... Lily is such a precocious child but in many ways typifies that confusing period when reality breaks in on accepted beliefs. Rosellen? - doesn't everyone hit that straw that broke the camel's back moment - I think we saw her hit hers. Aren't the descriptions of the house, the sisters and the beehives wonderful. I'm so glad I'm hearing the book again.
annafair
December 1, 2003 - 09:47 pm
I am so glad the discussion has started ...from beginning to end I enjoyed this book. I have never heard of anyone using grits for punishing ..but I would think kneeling on them would be awful. Just kneeling on a carpet when you have to retrieve something you dropped can be painful...and grits ...augh what a terrible punishment. I wanted to rescue Lily from the beginning ...and thank God I have never met someone like Ray T but the newspapers and news are full of such loathsome characters. So he seems real to me and not fiction.
anna
macou33
December 1, 2003 - 10:00 pm
Anna, I felt the same way about Lily......just wanted to snatch her out of that house and disappear with her. Regardless of the whys and wherefores, there is no excuse for an adult treating a child like that unless he was insane. Lily made me feel that she was so trapped in a terrible situation. Do you remember when you were a child how hard it was to figure out how to handle a difficult problem?? and this was one that a child should not have to figure out. Recently I read another story where a child grew up in a home with a totally disfunctional family and she had to get into her 30s before she was able to see that what had happened was not at all her fault. Such injustice to innocents really angers me! Thank God for people like Rosaleen who take initiative to try to save a child.
Dorothy
December 2, 2003 - 09:01 am
Lorrie, I wondered as I read about Rosaleen's
dripping her tobacco juice on those men's shoes and why later she just wouldnd't apologize which wouldn't have ended it of course.
I guess when a person has been held down for such a long time,
the fight for freedom and being one's own person just has to come out regardless like Rosaleen's admission that she had stolen the fan from the church.
I also thought it was so "human" when Rosaleen complained to Lily that she didn't really care more about getting her out of jail than her own concerns.
BaBi
December 2, 2003 - 12:34 pm
Remember the _caring soul_-- who no doubt meant well: _Just put it out of your head, Lily. It was an accident. You didn_t mean to do it._ Such a stupid thing to say;I have to believe she thought Lily already knew how her mother had died.
There is a strong suggestion here that 4-yr.old Lily was accidentally the cause of her mother's death. Does Lily's father hate her because of her mother's death? What kind of man would blame a 4-yr.old for an accident?
T.Ray is unquestionably a very unpleasant man. Remember the sign with the huge peach on top advertising the peach orchard? Rosaleen said that was T. Ray's way of "mooning the world". His bad attitude was not confined to his child.
...Babi
Lorrie
December 2, 2003 - 01:02 pm
Tudy:
It seems like as soon as Rosaleen saw the signing of the Civil Rights Act on the fuzzy television her defiance became unshaken, and I feel
that was why she spat on the shoes, and why she was so stubborn about apologizing. Before her attempt to register, I don't think Rosaleen would have tried it.
Babi:
I thought that phrase "mooning the world" was hilarious, and there are several other witticisms that Lily dreams up that are very funny.
Oh, I do like these two women!
Lorrie
judywolfs
December 2, 2003 - 02:05 pm
Paulita said _maybe some books should be read twice._ If I like a book a lot, I almost always read it twice! It makes me appreciate the writing itself the second time around, because I don_t get all involved with the plot.
Kneeling on grits. Think of how tender a young child's skin is, and how much more it would hurt a child. Not to mention the posture of submission that kneeling represents. What a bully.
- JudyS
mjbaker
December 2, 2003 - 02:07 pm
As I read the book a couple weeks ago, I hope I don't comment on thing s too far ahead. I did make some notes as I went along for the discussion.
All along I felt there was something suspicious in T. Ray's story of Lily's mother's death.
I was just amazed they had the courage to run away - or maybe I should say run "toward" a better situation. Lily was very clever in getting Rosaleen out of the hospital! Her thoughts while they were on the road were very insightful for a l4 year old.
I thought it interesting how Rosaleen trusted her to plan this. I am sure she was fearful of being returned to custody. Perhaps because they were traveling on rural roads, this kept them from being discovered?
I have heard of the Black Mandonna, but didn't know much about her.
The story just keeps getting better and better.
Marilyn
Lorrie
December 2, 2003 - 11:50 pm
Judy:
In this particular case, it's hard not to get involved in the plot, isn't it? It keeps getting better and better.
Marilyn:
Wassn't it great the ingenuity Lily showed about getting Rosaleen out of the hospital? And as they wander along, from the time the farmer dropped then off with two cantaloupes, it's hard to put the story down.
When I first started to read the book I felt that Sue Kidd was sort of a "folksy" writer, with a lot of "down-home" passages, but as I read further I am impressed with the perception she shows. Yes, I agree that some of the thoughts that Lily has that first night were insightful indeed. Like on page 55
"Looking up, I noticed that the tree I had fallen beneath was practically bald. Only little bits of green here and there and lots of gray moss dangling to the ground. Even in the dark I could see that it was dying, and doing it all in the midst of all these unconcerned pines. That was the absolute way of things. Loss takes up inside of everything sooner or later and eats right through it."
Marvelous writing!
Lorrie
Dorothy
December 3, 2003 - 06:51 am
I had to go back and reread the episode where Lily's mother is shot and then read T.Ray's story to Lily. I wonder if there isn't something wrong about that and maybe that's part of the talent of the writer to make the reader wonder about this.
Lily's expressing how she felt when she found the pink house and August like"practically radiating" reminds me of an experience I had a few years ago though I never could have expressed it so well. I also thought Lily was astute in recognizing she had prejudice buried within her.I wasn't able to come to grips with my own feelings until I was much older and away from my home background.
ALF
December 3, 2003 - 07:08 am
How horrible! I used to work with a woman who told me that she punished her children in the same manner that her mother punished her. She made them KNEEL ON beanS- DRIED PINTO BEANS, IF YOU WILL. I was horrified and she told me that it sure didn't harm her childhood any to endure this punishment. (Quite frankly, I disagreed with her then and I disagree still. Her elevator definitely did NOT go all the way to the top.)
tigerliley
December 3, 2003 - 07:51 am
Just would like to mention again that this is is Sue Monk Kidd's first work of fiction......what a fabulous book....she has written many books on Christian Living......not to long ago she had what I called an "awakening" and wrote a most interesting book "The Dissident Daughter".....Worth a look see for some of you....I found myself in a lot of things she had to say.........
Lorrie
December 3, 2003 - 08:12 am
ALF!
How good to see your name here!! Yes, I can see where you would disagree with that woman. I like your expression, "her elevator did not go all the way to the top!"
Tigerlily:
Thank you for your recommendation about Sue Monk Kidd. I am beginning to like her style of writing, even though I had reservations before reading the book.
Lorrie
BaBi
December 3, 2003 - 08:52 am
Here's another quote I think belongs in the next thesaurus of modern writers: "The world will give you that once in a while, a brief time out; the boxing bell rings and you go to your corner, where somebody dabs mercy on your beat-up life."
This book is full of memorable quotes. I am also now interested in reading "Dissident Daughter", having read this book. Lord, don't we all need 'time outs'? ...Babi
tigerliley
December 3, 2003 - 11:16 am
BaBi...Dissedent Daughter is non fiction...It is really thought provoking....has to do with womens role in the church....I took what I needed from it which was plenty and of course left the rest which I didn't need or agree with! I think she wrote some for "The Upper Room"....before she wrote this book....lol.....I don't know whether she still writes for "The Upper Room" or not.....I was not a reader of this particular publication but I have a friend who used to read it.......
Roseda
December 3, 2003 - 12:39 pm
This use of grits as punishment has been one in southern states in poor families. It has been used way long time. Rich families may have used it but more often in the last century I heard of beating with sticks and etc. that would of been a cause of brusing and worse. Grits is only uncomfortable and was more easy to bring a child around and led to less bad behavior.
Lorrie
December 3, 2003 - 01:43 pm
For copyright reasons, I cannot reproduce this following interview of Sue Monk Kidd as a post, but I can give you the link in order to read this excellent question and answer session with the author.
http://www.bookbrowse.com/index.cfm?page=author&authorID=820&view=interview This is tremendously interesting, especially when she talks about how she had worked the Black Madonna into the story. Read it!
Lorrie
tigerliley
December 3, 2003 - 02:43 pm
something tells me that rice was also used in this method of punishment.........kneeling on it.......
macou33
December 3, 2003 - 06:25 pm
What an excellent interview!! After reading that I can just feel the influence of her early years oozing through the characters in the book. Her comments on the injustices of those early days bring me back to the book that I just finished which was the story of a young slave woman who left the plantation at the end of the Civil War but never really made it to freedom. She lived out her days working on another plantation and later as a sharecropper.
The bee care and culture is another thing altogether. So interesting and so much I never knew about bee keeping. Mary
Lorrie
December 3, 2003 - 11:38 pm
You're right, Mary. Before I read about these bees, the only thing I knew about them was that they had stingers that had to be removed once stung, and that some people were horribly allergic to bee stings.
Sue Kidd's research here was very extensive, and I am enjoying those little quotes at the beginning of every chapter.
Some years ago, we had an older man who would come and do some gardening for my parents, and who had several bee hives as a sideline for extra income. That poor man suffered terribly from arthritis in his knees, and the pain was pretty rough, I was told. One day when the discomfort became too much, he went home, with my brother accompanying him, reached in one of the hives, removed a group of angry bees, and slapped them on his knees, in turn. My brother watched in horror as these bees stung him repeatedly, but apparently this was the only thing that could give him relief.
My brother swears he saw the whole thing.
Lorrie
Hats
December 4, 2003 - 06:18 am
Hi Lorrie,
I have never heard of "kneeling in grits" as a form of punishment. Like someone else wrote, only someone as cruel as T. Ray could think of such a punishment. Rosaleen had the ability to see immediately that T. Ray was a man who never should have been graced with the wonderful gift of being a father.
I think Rosaleen and Lily will end up saving one another from the injustices of life.
Dorothy
December 4, 2003 - 08:38 am
When my car mechanic hears me complain about arthritis pains,he always tells me I should find a bee hive and let myself get stung.He's a comparatively young man, but he swears it works. I don't think I'll ever try though.
I think we come upon the wailing wall for May at the end of our section for this week and I thought that was a really super idea to help her. This reminds me that I read in a magazine some time ago about a "worry jar". You write down your worries and put them in this jar. I am a worry wart beyond belief so I have this jar on my desk and began putting my written worries in it. It has really helped me to take out these bits of paper later and see how foolhardy my worries were. I still worry,of course and it's not the same thing as for May .
Lorrie
December 4, 2003 - 12:45 pm
tudy:
Do you see any connection to your "worry jar" and the strident voice from above that Lily keeps hearing, "Lily Melissa Owen, your jar is open!?"
The coincidental way that Lily and Rosaleen find their way to the pink house is extraordinary. Lily sees a picture of the Black Madonna on a group of jars of honey in the general store, and from there they are on their way.
Why do you suppose Lily feels a sense of deja vu when they walk into the house? And what did you think of the Calendar sisters? Right away you can tell that these women will be very important to Lily.
Hi, Hats, good to see your post!
Lorrie
mjbaker
December 4, 2003 - 02:08 pm
The Calendar sisters are so interesting, each in her own way. I can almost see them from the author's description.
I want to read Sue Monk Kidd's book, The Dissident Daughter (sp). Will check my library or Amazon. Maybe Santa will put it in my stocking.
I have read some of her essays in Christian literature, so I was't too surprised at her fiction writing ability.
Wouldn't it be interesting to read a sequel about Lily and Rosaleen?
Marilyn
Hats
December 4, 2003 - 02:30 pm
When Lily walks in the house, she talks about a sixth sense. She admits that not everyone is given this gift. I think this "sixth sense" allows Lily to feel her mother's past presence in this house.
I like the way August welcomes Lily into her home without any probing questions. I like the color of the house too.
BaBi
December 4, 2003 - 03:57 pm
Lorrie, I was puzzled at first by the "Lily Melissa Owens, your jar is open." Then I recalled her captured bees. Even after she removed the lid they did not immediately fly away. They didn't seem to realize they could. It fell into place, then; Lily had to be told her jar was open and that she, too, could leave.
Surely there is more than coincidence in Lily's finding her way to August's house. There has got to be a guiding hand in all this; it is just too much for mere coincidence. And the way that August welcomed Lily, I feel sure that she recognized her and that Lily has found someone her Mother knew. ...Babi
macou33
December 4, 2003 - 08:16 pm
Is it possible that Rosaleen knew a lot more about the history of the family than appears on the surface here......that she knew about Lily's mother having been here in the Pink house and knew that salvation for Lily was here too? Rosaleen seems to kind of fade into the background here, but it seems to me that she has a lot more importance in this story than is apparent.
Lorrie
December 4, 2003 - 09:42 pm
BaBi, how very perceptive of you to see the connection there with Lily's original jar of reluctant bees! In fact, the feeling of optimism that permeates this visit to the pink house seems to really shout, "Lily and Rosaleen, your jar is open!"
Hats, I feel that the sixth sense they feel is a good indication of the suspense of this tale. All along we keep wondering, what does August know? Why does she keep insinuating that Lily has something to tell her?
Lily's feelings about her mother are very complex. We are left wondering, after that horrid scene where T Ray told her about the day she died, whether the poor child actually was responsible for her mother's death, and I know at that point I kept saying to myself, "but what really happened?"
Lorrie
Lorrie
December 4, 2003 - 10:00 pm
I know some of you have already read the book, but I don't think it will jump any guns if I mention something. Has anyone wondered why, since it is so popular, that Oprah hasn't chosen this book, not that they need the publicity now. But it is a critics' choice, and all the Oprah elements are there; plucky girl heroine stuggling to get out of a dysfunctional and abusive home life, plus a culture clash and there is also a lot of poetic language suffusing the whole thing.
I was just wondering.
Lorrie
MmeW
December 5, 2003 - 01:01 am
Lorrie, it's my impression that after her "contretemps" with Jonathan Franzen, Oprah kind of lost the joy of introducing new authors. It also must have been quite a responsibility to know that her recommendation made instant millionaires of her authors. The "new" book club, I think, centers on "classic" authors (perhaps ones whose copyrights have run out): Steinbeck and Alan Paton so far.
I am absolutely loving this book. It is sooo sensuous: the bees, the honey, the river, the flowers, the grits and all. I find myself hoping, too, that Lily didn't kill her mother, that it was T. Ray's way out, but her interview indicates that isn't the case. Nonetheless, the mystical bees flying about her room, leading to the stay in the pink house I find fitting.
The only jarring note to me was Lily's bold and instinctive lying. I didn't see it coming in all that I had seen of her prior to the hike into town with Rosaleen. Suddenly she was resourceful and cunning.
I'm really enjoying the stay with the sisters in the pink house, though, and eager to read on.
ALF
December 5, 2003 - 06:04 am
Wouldn't it be wonderful to happen upon these women with names like a breath of fresh air? August, April, May- they feel like a new beginning for our little heroine & her friend, don't they? Life is full of different seasons and I question if that is the point SMK wished to make.
Lorrie
December 5, 2003 - 09:36 am
MmeW:
thank you for the update on Oprah. And sensuous! Just the right word. I am still perplexed about the cruelty of Lily's father, that taciturn and punishing man, who exhibits not a single feature of loving fatherhood.
I've been thinking--T. Ray's cruelty and indifference, and the dimly remembered violence of her mother's death, are for Lily a perfect familial pattern, matching the much larger and more malignant violence operating just under the surface of race relations in rural South Carolina. We learn there are many different ways to be trapped by hatred: unlike Lily who is at least young and white and educated, Rosaleen has no imaginable way out of her circumstances. Except for Lily's help.
Alf, aren't those Calender sisters remarkable? And each one so carefully imagined by the author. Do you have a favorite? I sort of favor August's calm serenity.
Lorrie
BaBi
December 5, 2003 - 12:24 pm
MACOU, if I remember correctly, T. Ray pulled Rosaleen away from being a field worker to take care of Lily. I don't believe she had any close connection to the family before that. I do agree that she should take on added importance as the story goes on.
LORRIE, August certainly didn't believe that story Lily came up with. I think she is just giving Lily time to come to her on her own with the truth. Who could not love August. One's sympathies go out to May, and June seems unreasonable, but August is pure wisdom.
MME.W, isn't lying one of the defensive tactics of an abused child? I'm no expert on the subject, but I think any child who has to deal with a parent like T. Ray might learn to be evasive and skilled in lying.
I agree wholeheartedly about the sensuousness of the droning bees, the hot sun, the languor. And the honey! I loved this:
_We lived for honey. We swallowed a spoonful in the morning to wake us up and one at night to put us to sleep. We took it with every meal to calm the mind, give us stamina, and prevent fatal disease. We swabbed ourselves in to disinfect cuts or heal chapped lips. It went in our baths, our skin cream, our raspberry tea and our biscuits. Nothing was safe from honey._ _August said honey was the ambrosia of the gods and the shampoo of the goddesses."
..Babi
MmeW
December 5, 2003 - 01:13 pm
Babi, very true about lying being a defense mechanism in all kinds of situations, even lying to ourselves. And I love the quote you posted. For some reason I am feeling very lazy (but very busy nonetheless), so neglected to go back and find some of the sensuous passages, but you found one of the very best. And I agree_there's no doubt August didn't believe Lily (again too lazy to find the passage).
Just a thought_if Lily really was responsible for her mother's death, could T Ray's cruelty be partly a reaction to that?
Hats
December 5, 2003 - 02:14 pm
I don't trust a word T. Ray says. He is such a selfish, uncaring man. He lied at one point, I think, and told Lily her rabbit had died. A pet is very important to a child. Nothing is sacred to T. Ray. To me, he seems to hammer the fact into Lily's head that she caused her mother's death. This makes me suspicious of his words and his motives.
Mme W, I love the word "sensuous" too. It describes the passages in the book so well. While reading, I wanted to visit the pink house and taste a bit of honey. I especially would like to see the statue of Mary.
Babi, thank you for the beautiful quote.
Nikigirl1
December 5, 2003 - 07:45 pm
The book discussion club I belong to finished "Secret Life of Bees" last month. Everyone loved it, which is most unusual for all of us to agree. Secret life had so much to offer. I had heard of the Black Madona and have seen paintings and prints of them. Most of our group had not.
Lorrie
December 5, 2003 - 08:31 pm
Thank you, Hats!
and Nikigirl1, I wanted to ask you, does your discussion group consist of older, or younger readers? I'm just curious.
Lorrie
Lorrie
December 5, 2003 - 10:03 pm
I think it_s not too early to say a few things about the masthead the Calender girls have in their
house, _the Lady of the Chains._.
A WORD OF CAUTION!!!
While I was doing some further research on Black Madonnas, I
remembered a mention of one on page 139 in the book. It was _Madonna of Breznichar,_ that
Lily and August were discussing, but when I brought it up on Google and clicked it, I found it
was simply a route to pronography. Forty years ago that might have interested me, but now I felt
only annoyance that i didn_t get what I was looking for. Hahahaha
Anyhow, here are some more fascinating articles on various Black Madonnas:
http://www.pacificnews.org/jinn/stories/3.12/970603-madonna.html
Article by Coleen O_Connor Seeking Light in Darkness_Force Behind the Resurgence of the
Black Madonna
http://www.ancientquest.com/embark/blackvirgin.html
Ancient Quest, from the website of Dr. Karen Ralls
annafair
December 6, 2003 - 07:12 am
It seems odd to me that I have never heard of a Black Madonna...and according to your links this is very old...I have no problem with thinking God could be black or a woman or anything else. What I have read would indicate that people became different colors according to where they lived. Dark skinned because of millions of years under African skies, pale because the winters were harsh and long and dark in the more nothern climes.
The author of this book has written characters that seem to jump right off the page and become real ...As far as Lily's father I think he is mean because he can be mean. anna
mjbaker
December 6, 2003 - 09:02 am
I was pleased that so many of you felt the same way about T.Ray. He really was unbelievably mean. I still felt some doubts about the "accidental" death of Lily's mother, even after reading all the book.
Also after finishing the story, I found I liked all the sisters! Just wait and see.
Marilyn
Hats
December 6, 2003 - 11:14 am
Lorrie, thank you for the links.
Marilyn, I like all of the sisters too! Although, my favorite sister, so far, is August or maybe May. August seems very patient and willing to love every person who connects with her. May is loving and cares about everyone too, but in her own unique way. I feel sorry for June. I think she is just a little bitter towards everyone. Is June a little bit prejudice? I think so. Lily helped me to see that everyone is capable of having that superior feeling that makes us feel that there is only room in the world for people who are like ourselves. I think June will finally overcome those feelings. It's impossible to remain bitter or distant from others around August.
BaBi
December 6, 2003 - 04:26 pm
You know, even if the death of his wife is part of T.Ray's meanness, it doesn't excuse him. A different kind of man would not hold a 4-yr old responsible for an accident, and would, I think, want to treasure what he had left of her...her child.
Help me out here;I'm working from notes now. My notes incl. the pg. #'s, but I forgot to go back and identify where the chapters started. Where does ch. 4 end; what page? I don't want to get ahead of the schedule here.
...Babi
Lorrie
December 6, 2003 - 11:21 pm
Babi: I really appreciate the way you are considerate enough to stay within the schedule, as are most of you lovely people.
Chapter 4 ends on pages 80 and 81,(paperback) with some beautifully written descriptions of Lily's feelings about discovering what sort of place she and Loraleen had discovered.
This is where she first discovers May's "wailing wall", that plays so important a part in the story.
Yes, Hats, I feel the same way about August. She seems so wise, doesn't she?
Lorrie
BaBi
December 7, 2003 - 11:56 am
The story of May's stone wall really touched me, and of course, one can't help thinking of the 'Wailing Wall' in Jerusalem. How painful it must be, to live with such extreme empathy for the suffering of others. How could May bear it? I think this is the sort of thing that makes saints. ...Babi
ALF
December 7, 2003 - 01:09 pm
I love the whole premise too, Babi. Wouldn't it be wonderful to pack up all of your heartaches on a slip of paper and entomb them into a crevice of a wall? I have thought a great deal about this in the past week.
Lorrie
December 7, 2003 - 01:47 pm
Oh, Alf, I couldn't agree more. It's truly understandable that you would be thinking of May's wall, in view of all the troubles you have faced recently.
There is something so sweet, almost saintly, about May, isn't there? I think it is absolutely wonderful the way August and June protect her. Without her wall, there is a suggestion that May might have had to go into an institution, did anyone else get that impression?
This book is marvelous. Susan Kidd brings us into her imagined world and makes us a living part of it. these characters seem so real to me.
Lorrie
annafair
December 7, 2003 - 03:53 pm
Yes I agree there is that impression but perhaps we all need a wall ..or someplace we can place the troubles that beset us ....it doesnt mean they will go away but by putting it on paper, in a diary, or just telling God I put these in your hands. We admit we cant solve them and we ask for help in dealing with them.
Our youngest son years ago was called hyper active with a learnig disability...when things would get so bad it was hard for the my son and I to handle it I would call him into the bedroom..and tell him we both recognize he has a problem and we are dealing with it the best we can with only mild success and many relapses. I told him God knew of the problems and we were going to turn them over to him. That is what I prayed,asking God to recognize our efforts but also telling him we we couldnt do this without HIS help and then ended by telling Him we were going to let Him handle it...Interestingly both of us felt a great sense of relief and we could move ahead. He is now 39 and very successful in his field, has a wonderful wife who is a registered dietician and a dear little boy who is now 4...they have been married for 11 years and while he is still a bit hyperactive...at 39 he is slowing a bit ..and he has a great sense of humor and a very loving nature....so I think it is important to recognize your worries and then give them over to something or somebody...her wall does that for her.....and yes I agree all of the characters seem real...great writing ...anna
BaBi
December 8, 2003 - 08:13 am
Anna, thanks for the success story about your son. I have a gandson with hyperactivity disorder. He is a fine young man, with high ideals, but still not settled on any goals for his life. He just needs a little more time than the average guy.
What does _Orthodox Eclectic_ mean to all of you? (p.90) Would that be similar to _cafeteria style_ religion? The kind where you pick the parts you like, and leave out the inconvenient parts?
Eclectic can also mean things drawn from different sources. August's worship services do seem to be a combination of orthodoxy with stuff from other sources mixed in. Some of it tends to get a bit bizarre, but it seems to fit the needs of a people who needed something peculiarly their own. ..Babi
Dorothy
December 8, 2003 - 09:25 am
It seems to me I read somewhere, and of course I can't find it now, that because the sisters were named after months,they could have the whole month when they were children to do special things they liked in orderto celebrate their birthday.I kind of ignore birthdays now,but I think I would have liked having a whole month set aside to celebrate as a child. I wonder if June doesn't have some kind of empathy since I think she plays music for funerals.
annafair
December 8, 2003 - 12:19 pm
Dont dispair about your grandson...yes they need a lot more time...I did a lot of research at the time...one doctor recommended no artificial or added things to food. We became a complete from scratch family..bread etc....and we would unplug the TV for weeks at a time since the motions unnoticed by most made him hyper.
Also we would say very calmly when he did something wrong ..that is just not acceptable social behavior....I am sorry but I think you need to go to your room until you think you can return and when you do I think we should hear an anpology..He could stay one minute or an hour it was up to him and whenever he returned he would say I am sorry Mom or Dad and we would say We know and we all need to try and help. I always felt being calm as possible helped a lot..and it did take him longer to mature..but he did it in spades as they used to say...anna
PS I LOVE THIS BOOK and the characters are so real I keep feeling I am reading a non fiction book...
ALF
December 8, 2003 - 02:06 pm
Our little Lily is growing up! I loved the story of Beatrix and wonder if that is a story that has been around for a while. After being told the story of _Our Lady of Chains_ Lily believes that Mary had made a curtain of protection around her and Rosaleen. What a comforting thought for her (as well as for myself.)
Music calms the savage beast doesn_t it? May teaches Lily the silly honey song and that wretched June antagonizes Lily but plays wonderful music on the cello. _Cello music swelled out from the house, rising higher and higher until it lifted off the earth, sailing toward Venus."
So sad that the green -eyed monster reared its ugly head in June_s attitude. I can_t find it right now but I loved the description of her mouth tightening up like a _buttonhole._
Poor May --doesn_t your heart break for her? She lost her twin and became almost like an autistic woman. Strange- absorbing all the troubles of the world right into her being. Lily wonders what it would be like if two people share this pain. Would it divide the hurt in two making it easier to bear, she wonders?
I have a question. If a person is stung so many times can they really acquire immunity? I thought that the more one was stung the greater the chance of a reaction. Does any body know?
Send the bees love! Love! Just like life, is it not? One big etiquette stage; don_t be an idiot; wear long sleeves, don_t swat. If you_re pissed, whistle. Don_t get angry as anger agitates and stirs up greater frustration and more anger. Act like you know what you_re doing (even if you don_t.) Above all, send love! I love that analogy here with the bees and the proper way to act and react to stimuli around us.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lorrie
December 8, 2003 - 02:23 pm
Oh, Alf, we were posting together, but I hope these comments aren't too repititious.
Babi, yes I would say that the religion these ladies practiced was a conglomeration, based loosely on Catholicism, but whatever it is called, it seems to fill their needs. I like the story of the chained Mary, too, plus the story about Beatrix, the nun, that seems to interest Lily so much.
It is now that we become aware of what happened to the sister who died. I didn't know that May had had a twin, April, who had had an unpleasant racial experience at the general store, that affected her so much she later killed herself with a shotgun. May had never been the same after that and it was not long before she had started her wall.
It is also mentioned that June had been jilted once before a long time ago, and that was why she hesitated about marrying Neil.
I wondered, too, why none of these gals had never married, but I'm sure there was no reason good enough to leave that tranquil home for.
I've just been rereading the about the Friday evening services, and what a joy they are! The Daughters of Mary show up in all their finery, and plunge right into the spirit of things. Those hats sound
delightful, don't they?
In our building here, we have an African/American neighbor who is a very devout member of her church. Every Sunday moring I keep watch out my window to see Arlene go to her car to drive to her church, and I am always entranced by the gorgeous hats that woman wears! They are real creations, beautiful and striking, and it's a joy to look to see which one she will be wearing each Sunday. Whenever I mention Arlene, I always clarify it by saying "the lady with the hats" and everyone knows whom I mean. Reading about these Daughters of Mary, I was immediately reminded.
Lorrie
BaBi
December 9, 2003 - 01:00 pm
Thanks, Anna. My son and DIL also gave Austin 'time out' when he was upset and hyper. Now that he is grown, he has chosen to be vegetarian which I suppose helps.
On June_s music..Lily also says this: _I could see how such music drew the ghosts out of dying people, giving them a ride to the next life._ Music has always been able to take people out of themselves. I do wonder tho' how this unusual use of her talent began with June.
I have noticed that as many churches have become more casual in their dress codes, the members of black churches I've attended still like to dress up in their best, and hats are definitely popular. ..Babi
ALF
December 9, 2003 - 07:46 pm
Lily and Mr. Zachary Lincoln Taylor are like any two young kids who have happened on to young love. Everything is brighter. They shared the beautiful gift of friendship before either of them realized what "hit them." I feel sorry for the poor kids; here we are in the deep south with a white skinned woman-child and a dark young man. We know where that is heading. Nowhere! Zach seems so sensitive and warm, doesn't he? Lily could certainly use a large dose of compassion and empathy.
Lorrie
December 9, 2003 - 11:31 pm
Yes, Alf, at that time, and in that place, the relationship between Lily and Zach would be a precarious one, but in the meantime, as you said, the compassion and affection Zach shows Lily is very touching.
Lily's relationship to her dead mother was complex, ranging from guilt, to idealization, to hatred, to acceptance. The spectre of her
mother overshadows all of Lily's thoughts, and we wonder just how this situation will resolve. There's a lot of suspense here wondering just what the connection was between Lily's mother and the pink house. We all know that August is aware of things that she feels are best left unsaid, for the present.
In your estimation, which woman would you say was the queen bee of this story?
Lorrie
BaBi
December 10, 2003 - 08:46 am
The Queen Bee? I think that has to be August. She is at the center of everything; the provider, the ruler, the essential core.
As I saw the relationship between Zach and Lily growing, there were moments in the book when I wanted to warn them. To say to Lily, 'don't appear to be too friendly with him; you'll put him in danger!'. Yet she must have been aware, having seen what happened to Rosaleen. This was so frighteningly true: "Or maybe desire kicked in when it pleased without noticing the rules we lived and died by."
Do you remember the policeman who told Lily he expected her to get in touch with her aunt and leave the company of the black women? He said he would check back in a week and be sure she had done so. What happened to him? I don't think he came back.
Looking to the future? (q.11) I would say Lily will definitely see her father again. There are questions still to be resolved there. Lily could become either a writer or a beekeeper...or both. And I think Rosaleen will stay right where she is. Where else would she go?
Lily and Zach...I assume (hope?) from the tenor of the book that nothing bad is going to happen to Zach. But they are both still school age, and Zach seems to me to have his feet firmly on the ground. I don't think he is going to do anything foolish. ...Babi
Hats
December 10, 2003 - 11:37 am
Is it possible that Lily might be the Queen Bee? At first, I thought August had to be the Queen Bee. Then, I read this quote. The quote made me focus on Lily.
"It felt like the queen's attendants were out here in a frenzy of love, caressing me in a thousand places. Look who's here, it's Lily. She is so weary and lost. Come on, bee sisters. I was the stamen in the middle of a twirling flower. The center of all their comforting."
Lily is the most needy. August and everyone else are working towards healing her. Everyone, in the pink house, whether they realize it or not, are working towards helping Lily become whole. When Lily comes to the pink house, she is a broken little girl, an abused little girl, she is only capable of receiving. To me, she is like the Queen Bee.
judywolfs
December 10, 2003 - 01:45 pm
Lily's mother is the queen bee (at least in the beginning of the book). Take a look at the interesting little notations about bees that start each chapter - they give a clue about the upcoming chapter.
For instance (going on memory here, I don't have the book with me) in one of the chapters the opening "bee notes" say that if the queen bee goes missing, all the other bees are disorientated, and don't know their role. Then the chapter goes on to discuss how dysfunctional everything is after Lily's mother died.
Another example: The bee note pointing out that there is no continuous role for male bees, just for worker bees is just before the chapter that describes how the 3 sisters have made a wonderful life without marrying, by becoming human "worker bees."
- JudyW
mjbaker
December 10, 2003 - 02:51 pm
judywolfs:
That's a very perceptive idea. I hadn't picked up on that.
That's what I enjoy about these discussions - everyone brings her own feelings about the book being discussed.
Wonder if the author has a sequel under way - bring us up to date on Lily and the others?
Marilyn
Lorrie
December 10, 2003 - 04:32 pm
The following was from an interview with Sue Monk Kidd on the pages of "BookBrowse":
http://www.bookbrowse.com/index.cfm?page=author&authorID=820&view=interview "I was sure that I would never revisit the story. I didn't want to risk tampering with the world I'd created. I wanted to freeze Lily at this moment of her life, fourteen forever, living in the pink house. Then I went on book tour, and the most frequently asked question that I got from readers was: Will you write a sequel? I was surprised by how strongly readers wanted to know what would happen to the characters. I started off saying that a sequel was really not a possibility. Still the question kept coming, along with disappointed looks when I gave my answer. I began saying, well okay, it's not likely, but I'll think about it. And that's as far as I've gotten. I'm thinking. " Lorrie
Lorrie
December 10, 2003 - 05:22 pm
Babi, Hats, and Judywolfs:
It's interesting how each of you considers others as Queen Bee in the discussion. Babi thinks it's August, and Hats and Judy think it was Lily. Incidentally, that was a really well-written quote, Hats!
Judywolfs, how good that you pointed out the references of the opening "bee notes" and how they relate to the story. I missed that, thank you!
In a way, I think the Black Madonna is the queen bee. This whole book centers around her effect on all the different lives and how these women revere her, just like in a real beehive.
I am so pleased with these responses. I feel that you have all grasped the essence of this book, and it's gratifying to see how you each interpret the messages. I love doing this discussion!
Lorrie
Dorothy
December 11, 2003 - 08:09 am
I'd like to share with you all a quote I scribbled down from our book(forgetting to put the page no-but I'm sure it's from our section) "every human has a steel plate in his head and if you lie down and get still,it will slide open like elevator doors letting in all the secrets and thoughts that have been standing around"Lily says this and I feel the author often speaks her mind thru Lily.I thought there was also humor at the introduction of this when Lily says there was a boy in her class who said he couldn't pass tests because the information couldn't get thru the steel plate in his head.
Anyway, this statement meant a lot to me-
judywolfs
December 11, 2003 - 09:27 am
I didn't mean to say that Lily represents the queen bee, I meant to say that Deborah, Lily's mother, represents the queen bee. But probably only in the beginning of the book. I haven't thought this quite all the way through.
VERY interesting thought about the black madonna "beeing" the queen!
My mother used to mention seeing a statute of a black madonna in Albequerque during the early 1940s.
- JudyW
BaBi
December 11, 2003 - 12:52 pm
Both Hats and Judy have good arguments for the identity of the Queen Bee. But I've been thinking...the Queen Bee really has a very limited life. She is waited on and pampered, but she never leaves the nest and her entire life consists of birthing bees. Perhaps none of our characters are really comparable to the Queen Bee, or maybe Lorrie's choice is best. The Black Madonna isn't going anywhere, she is adored (not the wooden figure, but the Lady she represents), the figure itself is definitely 'pampered' and preserved.
Royal responsibilities definitely hamper ones freedom. I can't imagine anyone taking a realistic look at the life royalty has to live, and thinking they would like to be a queen or king. (Not sure what this has to do with anything, but that's what is on my mind.)
..Babi
judywolfs
December 11, 2003 - 01:45 pm
Oh yes indeed, BaBi, the royal life isn_t for everybody! And Hats - look below at a quote from the interview (Lorrie posted the link a couple days ago) and my goodness! The black madonna becomes Lily_s mother!!! So if the queen bee is either the madonna or the mama, we_re both right.
Here's the quote:
"I fell in love with the masthead Mary. I imagined a masthead Black Madonna in the pink house. I pictured fabulous black women in grand hats dancing around her, coming to touch their hands to her heart. I understood in that moment that here was Lily's mother, a powerful symbolic essence that could take up residence inside of her and become catalytic in her transformation. Just like that, the Black Madonna became a full-blown character in the novel."
judywolfs
December 11, 2003 - 01:55 pm
No, wait a minute. I guess I meant to say Lorrie and I would both be right, according to the quote from the interview, if the "queen bee" turned out to be either the black madonna or Lily's mother, since they're the same person/being.
Hats, you thought it was Lily, right? Maybe that role switches around throughout the whole book, depending upon who is being cared for and surrounded by the loving worker bees - it happens for Rosaleen when she shows up at the pink house all beaten up, and for May when her grief gets out of control, as well for Lily in that quote that Hats posted.
I just LOVE this book!
JudyW
Hats
December 11, 2003 - 05:47 pm
Hi Lorrie and All,
I have a bad cold. I hope to feel better tomorrow. Then, I can catch up on all of the posts and my chapters too.
Lorrie
December 11, 2003 - 11:15 pm
Oh, Hats, I am so sorry you don't feel well. Take care of yourself, sometimes flu can be the result of a bad cold, and this is a bad season for that.
JudyW, isn't it nice that we are all right? Hahaha
It is interesting about your conjecture that the Queen Bee role switches from person to person during the course of this story, I like that interpretation.
I was impressed by the illuminating experience Lily goes through when she learns the real secrets of the bees, that day at the hives with August. Pages 147 through 151 give us a complete explanation and explains how the actions of the bees relate to Lily's loss of her mother. This particular scene has some very vivid writing.
Lorrie
aggravating aggie
December 12, 2003 - 04:23 pm
The discussion about "Secret Life of Bees" prompted me to join in this disussion, a first on-line "chat" for me as I've just finished it and am excited about the questions you pose. Like Tudy, I highlighted Lily's lines about the steel plate opening if you get still and it letting in all the secrets and thoughts that have been standing around. On page 151 it's sad that Lily hasn't had anyone to talk with to ease the deep pain she's experienced.
Lorrie
December 12, 2003 - 07:25 pm
Welcome, aggie!
Yes, that particular segment of Lily's thoughts was exceptionally poignant, I thought. Especially when she talked about the "motherless place".
Right here was a wonderful opportunity to really unburden herself with August, who encouraged her strongly. But Lily was not yet ready to tell August everything---------not yet.
So far there hasn't been too much said about the civil rights dissension that was going on in the South in those days, even though we can feel a subtle awareness of the current events of the day beneath the daily bee-keeping activities, but when Zack comes home (on page 154) with news of a potential trouble , I, for one, felt an ominous sense of something bad about to happen. Anyone else?
Lorrie
Hats
December 13, 2003 - 05:23 am
Hi Lorrie and All, I am feeling much better. I am coughing, but the weakness is gone. If I can't post, I will lurk for awhile. I will have to take my book back to the library. I read it awhile back. I just can't remember what I read.
mjbaker
December 13, 2003 - 07:44 am
Yes, Lorrie, I felt the same way about ominous events coming.
A side note - about civil rights. We have lived in the South for almost 19 years. Just recently, I was forced to realize the old feelings are still very much alive. My women's mission group at church has a Bible study each year. We are provided a study book by our conference. The husband of one of our members was to teach it, but when he read the book, he told her it was "full of the usual propaganda" about civil rights! I read the book, (on Exodus and comparing the Jewish Exodus with the journey of black people to full freedom,) and I found it interesting information about how my denomination in its early days, badly handled the situation, and how attempts are still being made to correct problems.
I am sorry to say he did not teach the study using the book. I have suggested to several members they should read the study book.
Sorry for this long slightly off-topic subject, but I am sorry about such feelings in 2003.
Marilyn
BaBi
December 13, 2003 - 08:57 am
It is startling to hear such things from people today, isn't it, Marilyn. There are still some diehards out there, and I always supposed they must be from families of strongly racist backgrounds. On the other hand, some people change their outlook because they did see it in their family...and didn't like it. Then, like Lily and Rosaleen, there is nothing that takes the blinders off ones eyes like getting to know a person well, and learning that they are simply human, good, bad and everything in between.
One of the things that first drew me to my present church was the presence of both Hispanics and African-Americans in the congregation when I visited there. The church grew fairly large, and then eventually began to decline in numbers. There are no African -Americans presently in the congregation, but we still have a large proportion of Hispanics. At one time we shared out premises with a Afr-Amer. congregation, and during that time had the pleasure of occasionally sharing services with the other pastor preaching, and of enjoying each other's singers and musicians for worship. This continued until they were able to afford a place of their own, and last I heard they were thriving. ..Babi
Dorothy
December 13, 2003 - 09:32 am
Lorrie, I felt for sure someone would see Zach with Lily and start a fight or something.My family migrated to Florida in the early 50's and I know Florida is probably not what you would call the real south,but my parents had trouble adjusting there-for one when my mother was driving Mary home one day,at a stop lite a member of my mom's church banged on her car window and told her she must have her domestic sit in the back seat.And then my dad could not understand why Willie,his garden helper would take a drink my dad brought him and take it out back-not drink it near the house.As I get older though, I've found there are all kinds of prejudices,probably none so blatant as race,but it's difficult to learn to be truly non-judgmental about people I've found.
BaBi
December 13, 2003 - 09:49 am
Tudy, I'm not a resident of Florida, but I have always considered it a part of the South. (Farther south than Georgia, in fact, and that's saying a lot! <bg>) From things I have read, I would say Florida was as strongly racist as any other Southern state. Being born and raised (mostly) in Texas, I can testify to what that means. The early 50's were a time of extreme tension with the onset of the civil rights movement. I can well understand the actions of the people in the stories you posted. People were simply afraid, and with good cause.
Rosaleen's march to vote occurred a decade later. There had been a lot of changes, but a decade is not nearly long enough to change people's attitudes. We don't know what Rosaleen had endured during the years before she became Lily's caretaker, but I do know there was a lot of pent-up anger behind that spurt of tobacco that landed on that white racists shoes. Frankly, I was torn between wishing she hadn't been so foolish, and wanting to stand up and cheer! ..Babi
Lorrie
December 14, 2003 - 01:53 pm
These are wonderful posts, but right now I am just not able to respond properly, I've come down with a mean bug, and feel really lousy. Please keep the ball rolling for the next few days, readers, I hate to see a lull here.
We are proceeding on to the next four chapters, with Chapter 10 as a start. I will be back among you all as soon as I feel just a little better. Thank you so much.
Lorrie
Hats
December 14, 2003 - 03:20 pm
Lorrie, Get well soon. I am not completely well. It takes time to shake the bug. It's going through my whole family. Now, my husband is in bed sick.
MmeW
December 15, 2003 - 01:12 am
Hi, all. I have been sneaking in my reading along with all the holiday madness, trying to catch up, and here we are a week later and I'm behind again! I loved all your interpretations of the queen bee_what a great thing discussions are. I, of course, had the knee-jerk reaction that August was the queen bee, but I love judywolf's thoughts about the mom and Lorrie's about the black madonna. I've seen many black madonnas in Europe, especially France, but I can't quite remember where, and it never occurred to me to wonder why they were black. I guess I just thought it was the material they were made from.
My big question at this point is June. It seems to me that her loathing for Lily is much deeper than resentment over an interloper and I can't help but wonder if it has to do with her mother_was her mother ever there? Did her mother have something to do with June's first disappointment in love? Probably not, but I tend to treat every book like a mystery novel, looking for clues at every turn..
Lorrie and Hats, I hope you all are on the mend. It seems like so many people are sick now. I'm trying to stay healthy, but here I am at midnight working on bees. Take good care of yourselves.
ALF
December 15, 2003 - 06:33 am
Oh dear, oh my! As I read the prologue to this chapter on The Dancing Bees I feared the worst for May. "A bee's life is but short.....Threatened by all kinds of dangers during their foraging flights, many workers die before they have reached even that age.."
The writing in this chapter is superb as we hurriedly take flashlight in hand and join the frantic search for May. The fear is deep and very dark indeed.
"I stared at a tree on the opposite bank, where the roots were exposed and twisted and felt a metallic-dry taste rise from the back of my throat..." You can actually sense the trepidation, can't you?
August, the pillar of strength gives orders as needed to retrieve poor May, with a "heartbroken acceptance." This is so sad as they prayed and hoped against hope that she could be revived.
BaBi
December 15, 2003 - 09:25 am
Sad as May's death was, I couldn't help but be glad she had found peace and a release from the pain. She suffered so much, for everyone.
Remember this from Lily:
_..I_d been going along being my normal girl self and the next thing I knew I_d passed through a membrane into a place of desperation._ A place any adolescent can recognize, and we can surely remember. But it is a normal part of growing up. May's desperation was beyond anything most of us experience. Most of us have learned how to protect ourselves from feeling too much. We have to.
Didn't you love the party for the bees? What a wonderful, original idea. ...Babi
judywolfs
December 15, 2003 - 02:24 pm
It seemed that June and August knew exactly how to act, how to do the right thing. They were sad, but somehow they didn't seem to be shocked. It's bad enough when somebody you love dies, but when it's a suicide, it's overwhelming. Poor May. She was protrayed throughout the entire book as such a loving, yet very fragile person. Committing suicide seemed like self a selfish thing for her to do.
- JudyW
ALF
December 15, 2003 - 05:18 pm
I feel as you do BaBi, May suffered and was never really happy with life after her twin died. Isn't it strange the different ways and modes that we utilize to protect ourselves? We all do it, I think. Whatever works best for each one of us, we live by, or suffer by. Some people hide their pain thru their drugs of choice, booze and/or licentious living. Some hide under pretentiousness and/or false bravado. Many hide thru humor or self-analysis. Music and books are my safe havens and I that I learned when I was about Lily's age.
JUDY: Comitting suicide was her only retreat into her safe haven, I think. She knew how concerned her sisters and those around her were for her & perhaps she considered that this was the easiest way for them, as well. She knew she would never be "normal" as they wished her to be. I don't know, I have a hard time accepting suicide and have often felt it is just a "cop out" for not being able to cope.. I am much more prone to homicide, myself, and have a problem with dealing with suicide ideations--- so you'd have to discuss this with someone else who is more tolerant than I. Personally, I feel it's hateful, spiteful and selfish, as you do. I have had two very close friends commit suicede and God forgive me, I've never forgiven them for putting us, the surviving mere mortals thru that hell. One had a 13 yr. old daughter that was home at the time she put the gun to her head. May, I can almost understand by sensing her frailities. I am still after all of these years trying to untangle my friends dilemmas and understand WHY in the hell she would ever put her child thru that.
MmeW
December 16, 2003 - 12:11 am
I'm ashamed to say I haven't gotten to Chapter 10 yet, but, Alf, I tend to agree with you. I was shocked to hear of a friend's suicide this summer, a wonderful teacher and person whose children can't be much more than college age. It's bad enough that she deprived the world of her gifts, but to deprive her kids.... I can't imagine the depths of despair that would drive me to do such a seemingly selfish thing.
(Oh, and I learned in Chapter 9 that Lily's mom had been there... duh.)
judywolfs
December 16, 2003 - 12:04 pm
I know I sounded rather harsh when I wrote about May being selfish by her suicide. It's a wonder that June and August weren't angry; they seemed so accepting. Alf, I must admit that I chuckled when I read "I am much more prone to homocide myself."
Earlier today I tried to post something here but the "post a message" button was gone. I'm glad it mysteriously reappeared.
- Judy W
annafair
December 17, 2003 - 09:05 am
My son in law who is knowledgeble about computers will be here for a few days at Christmas and I hope he can do something with it..Just about the time I have read everyone's post I am thrown off ...I have no idea why and I cant use explorer at all. Netscape works but not all the time.
I have enjoyed reading all the posts And while I feel suicide is a rather selfish act...I feel deeply how the person must have felt to commit suicide. What depth of pain and lack of hope did to them. I have had several friends over the years reach that spot and take thier lives.And I just yearned to have been there and hug them and try to get them to see it was the wrong thing to do.. Still my husband had a cousin, brilliant, beautiful with two great children, a husband who adored her who committed suicide ...she had been watched and help was provided but while in a hospital with all things taken away from her .,..she stuffed her throat and mouth with toilet tissue..now that tears me apart..to be that desparate ....her death helped me feel May's pain....anna
BaBi
December 17, 2003 - 09:22 am
I had an uncle who committed suicide. He was bedfast after a stroke, helpless, unable to speak clearly. My aunt was a woman filled with bitterness; she blamed her husband for their son's death. She kept everyone else away from him, saying, perhaps truly and perhaps not, that he didn't want anyone to see him as he was. I suspect his life was a total hell. He shot himself, and I feel fairly certain that gun would have to have been placed within his reach. Blame him...no, I can't.
In most instances I think suicide inexcusable, for the pain and trauma caused to those abandoned by a deliberate act. Yet I also have to recognize that I am in no position to judge how much another person can bear. ...Babi
ALF
December 17, 2003 - 11:06 am
she just rattles on and on when being interrogated by the policeman. I do that too! Many times when I get nervous my mouth rattles like a whipperpools backside in a wind storm and I have to stop myself and tell myself I am giving much more information than anyone needs to hear. It's a defense mechanism for me, I think.
She experienced her first "wake." Did they tell her what a "wake" was and how loved ones would actually view the body and await the "awakening?" Oh Susannaha was played on the cello by June, which made them all smile remembering how May had loved the song. Lily actually touched May and hoped that she would find her peace in heaven. Were you surpirsed that at her age that she felt May's spirit and wasn't frightened ?
Zach was freed, at last, thanks to a spectator and came to pay his respects to May. I love this sentence and feel its veracity. "I was afraid, though, the blame would find a way to stick to them. That's how blame is!"
Did n't you love the way SMK described the "city of mourning" after the hives were draped?
"Even the humming turned gloomy under the black drapes..."
August relates the tale of Aristaeus. Had any of you ever heard that before? That's a new story for me. I like the adage that a "person's soul will be reborn into the next life if bees are around." Is that just beekeepers that believe that or is that another old wives tale passed on down thru the generations? I don't know.
ALF
December 18, 2003 - 06:59 am
Hello everyone!
Our Ms. Lorrie is ill in bed with the flu so we shall carry on while we await her return. Please chime right in. did anyone wish to discuss anything about the funeral services?
ALF
December 18, 2003 - 09:14 am
Lily begins to mature right before our eyes in Chapter 11, doesn't she? Being left alone and "out of the loop" of the sisters she begins to miss her ordinary life as it was. She would walk alone in the woods and wait for a sign that her mother was talking to her.
Zach, also on the brink of maturity tells Lily not to think about changing her skin but "Change the world-- that's how we gotta think." Bless their hearts, growing up can be so painful. My dad used to tell me that it had to be one person at a time that could change the world. Did any of you know of a kid like Zach: angry, heated and quick-tongued? What a terrible way for those children to learn about bigotry and "righteous causes." If it's true that remembering is everything" as August told Lily, than Zach will be heavy laden. Lily makes Zach promise that he won't become mean and he promises that one day they will be together.
Ok! Who in the world ever heard of pouring peanuts into a coke bottle? Coke and peanuts sounds good to me, but pouring them right in gives me pause. I like to lick the salt off of my fingers!
annafair
December 18, 2003 - 09:32 am
Wow I never did that but had friends who did and I always watched in fear they would choke on the them....it was sort of a bravado type thing to do as I recall.
I grew up in a Irish Catholic community and wakes were a big thing. The one thing I do remember unless it was a very young person there was almost an air of celebration. Children were taken to wakes and often they were in the homes. I can NEVER remember being asked to be quiet or still. In fact one of my favorite memories was at a huge impressive funeral home..there were about 8 children there and we played hide and seek among the rooms and the funeral biers...NO ONE TOLD US TO STOP and the owner and director who was a large, impressive man just smiled at us and asked if we were having a good time.
I wasnt really aware of a difference between black and whites...we had black school teachers who live around the corner from us, and in the alleys behind us we had black families ..I played with the little girls from those families ...and one of my older brothers was a friend with a young black man his age. When the WWII happened the two of them decided to join the Coast Guard thinking it meant they wouldnt be sent overseas...I dont know what happened to the young black man since they were separated and he was sent to an all black group..that was a surprise and I can recall my brother and most of the family couldnt believe that they separated them...after all werent we ALL AMERICANS?
anna
ALF
December 18, 2003 - 10:29 am
Hello! I remember the first wake that I ever attended. My uncle had died and my aunt "waked" him in their living room. I just remember sitting there waiting, honestly, for him to awaken. It's funny how often I have thought of that as an adult when I see kids at a funeral. I've told my kids that at my "wake" they better have some Simon and Garfunkle blaring out and lots of stories to tell. I want laughter and a big celebration.
Unfortunately racism is still rampant and will be until we are all of a "gray" or similiar color. At that point someone will then find something different to be prejudiced against such as eye color or speech pattern.
BaBi
December 18, 2003 - 02:31 pm
Our family doesn't have wakes, exactly, but our response to a death in the family is similar. The family gathers around and begins reminiscing about the one that has gone. There is laughter and fondness throughout the stories, and the young ones listening have new famly stories to add to their sense of who and what they are. They can see the things the family loves, admires and respects, and I am sure it influences who they become. The saddest funerals are those where a death occurred too young; there is a sense of incompleteness.
On Zach, Lily and their 'impossible' young love, one of my favorites lines was:
_impossibility_ is a great big log thrown on the bonfire.
It was with considerable relief that I found these young people able to avoid this particular bonfire. They both have other matters to deal with first. ...Babi
judywolfs
December 18, 2003 - 02:54 pm
I don't think the romantic attraction between Zach and Lily is very important to this story - they are developing a life-long bond made up of love, friendship and family-like loyalty. The romantic part is just a passing fancy. And besides, if Lily grows up to be anything like the sisters, she won't be having any bothersome man hanging around all the time.
- JudyW
ALF
December 18, 2003 - 07:20 pm
judy- I dont' know! I felt that this attraction of Zach and Lily was important in the sense that it showed how young people LEARN what life is all about? Thru this particular type of love aren't we introduced to what's important and how to deal with it, early on in life? do you think that Lily and Zach EVER got any closer than the night they were in the water. Sex is sex, but closeness is from the heart, isn't it?
BABI- I love it! That is just the kind of wake that I'd chose for myself. That's a great point- the children listen and learn to figure out who they come from-- much like our Lily is doing as we progress on. what did you think when Lily stormed into August's BLUE room and asked "remember when you said we should have a talk"?
Roseda
December 19, 2003 - 09:23 am
Secret life of bees continue to be on the number one best seller list. As I read it when it wasn`t yet I am enjoying reading your coments.
ALF
December 19, 2003 - 10:51 am
roseda- Which character was your favorite?
BaBi
December 19, 2003 - 11:54 am
Alf, Lily had decided some while back to 'tell all' to Augusta, and then things kept coming up to prevent it. When she marched into Augusta's room that day, she was determined that she was going to get it all said. My own feeling was, "Well, about time!". I knew so much could be cleared up once Lily was ready to open up to Augusta.
I was surprised when Lily was so unforgiving of her Mother's breakdown. With all Lily has gone through, I thought she would be more understanding. But then, I realized I should not have expected a fourteen yr.-old girl with Lily's survival instincts to grasp what severe depression is like. I was so glad Augusta had that photo showing so clearly the mother's love for her little girl. Lily really needed that.
Babi
ALF
December 19, 2003 - 12:21 pm
I think that you've grabbed the essence of this story. Lily WAS only 14- as precocious a child as she was, she was still a child!
ALF
December 19, 2003 - 12:27 pm
August was such a kind woman. She placed her hand on Lily's and rubbed her fingers over Lily's skin, in love, as she began her story--- a story that Lily had NOT been ready to hear, up until this point.
Wasn't Lily shocked that August knew Terrence Ray also??
I loved the little nuances in regards to the church.
"I did not know one thing, rally, about the Catholic Church, but somehow I felt sure the pope would have keeled over if he'd seen this. Not Brother Gerald, though. He wouldn't have wasted time fainting, just gotten busy arranging the exorcism."
did that crack anybody else up besides me?
Dorothy
December 19, 2003 - 02:23 pm
My tree is still untrimmed and the train set in boxes but I loved catching up with your posts.I hope our Lorrie feels better soon. I'm not sure if I'm too far ahead but I thought that "angry"scene when Lily lets loose all her pentup anger was magnificent writing.I cringed while the honey got everywhere.And then Rosaleen's helping Lily clean up I thought was a magnificent act on her part.Did you all think so too.
mjbaker
December 19, 2003 - 02:28 pm
Tudy, I agree. That was quite a scene to picture in the imagination. I think Lily needed that. And yes, Rosaleen handled it well, too.
This book is so different from any other I have read - I could hardly put it down.
Marilyn
ALF
December 20, 2003 - 06:07 am
Well good morning tudy and Marilyn. You are not too far ahead in our reading of the book , by any means. We will be finishing up the book before Christmas day, so feel free to jump in with ANY thoughts or opinions. We'll dissect them one by one.
We miss you Lorrie, get better fast!!!!!!!!!!!11
ALF
December 20, 2003 - 07:03 am
We are coming up onto my favorite part of this book. this writing is profound here.
"Probably one or two moments in your whole life you will hear a dark whispering spirit, a voice coming from the center of things. It will have blades for lips and will not stop until it speaks the one secret thing at the heart of it all."
Oh that is such a strong statement. Poor Lily, bless her heart, felt as if she was unlovable and that is what haunted her throughout this whole story.
Have you ever heard this dark spirit whispering to you?
What would Lily have ever done without the love and support of August, I wonder? When August told her that she loved her, she "held her words inside of her" and Lily learned about Deborah and her tale of woe.
Ginny
December 20, 2003 - 07:47 am
Just a note in haste to say that our Discussion Leader, Lorrie, HGorg92307@aol.com, has been VERY sick, she's been in the ER and now has cracked a rib from coughing, I know she would appreciate hearing from you all this holiday season, so just so you'll know one of our Books Family is down this Christmas, you might want to send her on our wishes for feeling a lot better!
We do so appreciate our ALF (Andrea) even while on vacation, caring enough about you and this discussion to keep it going, her post above mine on her favorite part of the book makes ME want to go get it and read it, thank you Andrea, you're an inspiration!
ginny
BaBi
December 20, 2003 - 08:49 am
Alf, I had a big grin at Lily's remarks about the reaction of the Pope and Brother Gerald also. Actually, I suppose the Pope has heard of stranger things than that; Brother Gerald, too, for that matter.
When I read this, I thought it was the key to the theme of this book: _I LOVED THE IDEA OF BEES HAVING A SECRET LIFE, JUST LIKE THE ONE I WAS LIVING._
And isn't this beautifully expressed? _Drifting off to sleep, I thought about her. [Lily_s mother.] How nobody is perfect. How you just have to close your eyes and breathe out and let the puzzle of the human heart be what it is._
Beautifully put .... and permission for Lily to forgive herself as well, I think.
....Babi
BaBi
December 20, 2003 - 08:53 am
Ginny, thanks for the alert re. Lorrie. I did that once,...coughed so long and hard that I cracked some ribs. A prescription level cough med. stopped that, but the ribs were sore for a while. I hope she will be recovered in time to enjoy her Christmas. ..Babi
ALF
December 20, 2003 - 08:54 am
Oh thankk you Ginny. I have truly been worried about our Lorrie. I know that she must be totally down and out with this bug to prevent her from coming in here and posting in BEES. Did they admit her to the hospital or send her back homoe?
Ginny
December 20, 2003 - 02:56 pm
I believe she came home, Andrea, she wrote you as well, but you may not be able to access your email where you are.
I'm the last person on earth who wants to derail a book discussion off the book topic but just thought you all would want to know!
ginny
ALF
December 20, 2003 - 05:56 pm
yes, yes and thank you for thinking about us in here. My daughter's computer is not working well with all of the teenagers using so many different sites. I am unable to access my email at my regl. email address. I am happy that Lorrie's home but does she have anyone checking up on her?
ALF
December 21, 2003 - 06:16 am
Where are all of our happy posters? Lorrie is ill and I would love to go thru her final questions with you.
What say ya'll........................?
ALF
December 21, 2003 - 08:08 am
As Lily begins to relate the story of her mother being shot didn't you have the feeling that August was pushing her to find out "just a bit " more than Lily could assemble in her own mind? I sensed that august thought the story was different from the way Lily understood it. Perhaps she thought old T. Ray shot Deborah. That part of the story is so sad for little Lily who is caught between being a young adolescent girl and a child who mourns for her mother. Imagine living with the guilt of shooting your mother accidentally.
"The terrible thing was the anger in me. It had started on the back porch when the story of my mother had collapsed, like the ground under my feet giving way. I didn't want to be angry."
Ambivalent reactions- love, hate and pure adolescent confusion.
mjbaker
December 21, 2003 - 12:25 pm
Thanks for letting us know about Lorrie. I hope she will be recovering soon - it's especially bad to be ill at Christmas time.
I felt so bad when I realized that Lily had accidentally killed her mother. Up until then I had my suspicions about T. Ray - I thought he had just made her feel as though she did it.
He is such a cold man - even when he did come to see her. No happy ending for him - but maybe it was just as well. After living with the ladies, she never could have been happy going back with him.
Who would have thought bees had secret lives? Does it make you wonder about all God's other creatures??
Merry Christmas to all or Happy Holidays - whatever you observe.
Marilyn
ALF
December 21, 2003 - 03:51 pm
Marilyn- I'm still not convinced that T.Ray didn't play a larger part in the accident than we know. He seemed like such a sneaky devil, didn't he? I really wanted it to be HIM that caused the accident and wondered why Sue Monk Kidd kept it that way.
You're right, maybe all of God's creatures, besides homo sapiens and BEES have secret lives. We just don't know about it.
I've been in touch with Lorrie and she still feels pretty bum. Her rib is cracked from the infernal coughing that she's been doing and she has recently started on new meds. That is the good news. The bad news is that this medication usually takes 20+ days to work. She has asked me to come in here and thank all of you for your kind words of comfort and encouragement. One becomes so disheartened when one doesn't feel well, especially at this time of the year.
We all join in a group {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUG}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}]]]]]]]]
for Lorrie and hope that she returns as soon as she is able.
She also said that she is trying daily to follow the posts but she's just not up to responding yet. The important thing is that she knows we love her and worry about her.
On to Lily and the story soon. In the meantime the chicken must be cooked tonight and then I'll get the kids to bed..................
judywolfs
December 22, 2003 - 09:42 am
looked like and awfully HARD hug for one with cracked ribs! Let's take it a little easier on her, until she's feeling better, eh?
About T Ray - when he banged on the door of the pink house, I think it was the most alarming moment in the book. I found him fearsome and terrorizing. Even though we find out that he didn't murder Lily's mother, (and in fact, may have loved her at one time) I can find no forgiveness in my heart for him. He's a wretched bullying child abuser, and deserves whatever misery might come his way.
-JudyW
ALF
December 22, 2003 - 07:19 pm
You're right! That hug was much too strong for our Lorrie but not nearly as strong as our desire to get her well and back in here.
Lily's hunger returns, her urge to call zach returned, June's wedding date was set and Rosaleen finally became a registered voter. At this point Lily began to forgive her mother. You thought "how you have to breathe out and let the puzzle of the human heart be what it is."August discovered that the queen bee was dead and phoned for a new one before she showed Lily what a queenless colonly looked like. Again, this is such a touching poignant point in this story as she tells Lily that "you have to find a mother inside youself. We all do. when you're unsure of yourself, when you start pulling back into doubt and small living, she's the one inside say "Get up from there and live like the glorious girl you are.' She's the power inside of you."
what a wonderful way to help a child understand inner strength, don't you think?
I agreee with you judy-- T.Ray is ominous in his arrival. It's like the devil himself swept in, smiling with the "fat grin of a man who has been rabbit hunting all day long and has just now found his prey backed up in a hollow long with no way out."
He insulted the statue of Mary ,carved into the arm of the rocking chair, the old fool, and then smacked Lily, full force, right across the face! At this point he totally lost it and thought that he was kicking Deborah as he threatened Lily with the knife that "she'd never leave him again" and she was returning home with him. Finally after Lily screamed "daddy" the fool came to his senses, bewildered.
"The skin over his eyes sagged down onto his eyelids. He looked away toward the window, like he was contemplating the road that had brought her here."
Lily actually felt more compassion for him than I could ever muster up. What about you?
Dorothy
December 23, 2003 - 03:49 pm
Merry Christmas to everyone and I want to join that ouchless hug to Lorrie too.I really enjoyed this book more than I thought I would.There are so many wonderful phrases in it I thought like when August says to Lily"there is nothing perfect-only life"And then when Lily said"I believe in the goodness of imagination" but my favorite of all ,and I forget who said it but I wrote it down it meant so much to me"The only purpose grand enough for a human life is not just to love but to persist in love"
BaBi
December 23, 2003 - 04:02 pm
I noted down "strength and consolation and rescue, and all the other things we need to get through life_. It made me think. Strength and consolation I know about, but I hadn_t really thought, until I read this, of the times I also needed rescue.
What are some of the _other things_ we need to find in our inner resources, to get through life? Faith, I think, above all else.
There is a phrase on p. 289 ..._pulling back into doubt and small living.._ Doubt does leave one living _small_. So does fear. So does pettiness. What else, do you think?
We're about to run out of time on this one. So sorry, LORRIE, you haven't been well enough chime in. You got us off to a great start and gave us a lot to chew on. And I am quite certain you will be feeling much better long before '20 days'! Humph! ...Babi
ALF
December 23, 2003 - 08:58 pm
Whenever I read a book, i, too, write down certain phrases that mean something to me. tudy didn't you feel that August really saved this child's life by giving her such hope, faith and consolation? Particularly in the end when she looked over her shoulder and saw all of those women, all of that love, waiting, for her.
Yes, that is a wonderful saying. "One must persist in love," I like that. That's not an easy thing to do. There are so many outside factors, influencing our emotions that that is a difficult task, I'd say.
Lily believed in the "goodness of imagination." (So did Walt Disney, didn't he?)
Babi it is very difficult to think of ourselves as needing to be rescued. I never really thought of it. Maybe it is because we don't wish to admit to our own frailities and our own weaknessess. I hate to admit to needing help - let alone rescue. Faith surely is a big one on my list for "inner resources." Without faith I wonder how pople make thru their days .
GingerWright
December 23, 2003 - 09:53 pm
I wish to tell you Now this is what I call Team work, caring and sharing Our Lorrie's burden due to her illness. I have sent you the names of people who said that they would be here and then realize you wont get them till much later due to your being with your family and Not at home. I just cannot understand so many Not posting even knowing this would be the Christmas Holidays as they knew before commiting that this discussion would be Now. I Comemand (sp)you for your courage and steadfastness.
Ok Where are you people who have read the book? I have Not so have Nothing to say.
ALF
December 24, 2003 - 06:49 am
Hello there Gingee! Hey no sweat. It's the holiday season, people get hurrying and scurrying around completing their Christmas shopping, wrapping and planning activiities. I understand and I'm sure Lorrie does too. I am sorry that I couldn't retrieve my email this time as I would have written each member to come in and just post one final thought about our Lily and what the future might hold for her. We'll finish this wonderful book here in the next couple of days.
I will be cooking all afternoon with my daughter. Please feel free, one and all to stop in and give any comments that you would care to give, quote a special passage of just wish our Lorrie well.
May you all be filled with love, joy and peace today. One day at a time..
ALF
December 24, 2003 - 06:51 am
Oh my gosh, look what happened to my LOVE. It's bracketed correctly but when I post it goes to small case and underlines itself. Any hoo...
God bless you one and all!!!!
judywolfs
December 24, 2003 - 09:04 am
Here it is Christmas Eve, I'm going out of town today and won't be back until next Monday, but I still feel there's so much to say about the Secret Life of Bees, must we actually close the discussion on schedule? It seems so abrupt!
By the way, it's worth reading twice. I enjoyed it even more the second time around, picked up on things I missed entirely during my first read.
Everyone - have a wonderful, merry Christmas.
- JudyW
Anneh
December 24, 2003 - 09:47 am
Dear Judy.
I am in about the same boat as you. I had to turn in my copy to the library 2 weeks ago as people were waiting to read it. But yesterday, the library called and told me the book was returned and available.I did not remember how far I had read, so reread a lot. I found the book to be interesting but I don't think it grabs the readers attention like other recommended /discussion books. I really liked Wally's book but had to wait for it several weeks also. Have a happy Christmas, one and all.
Anneh
BaBi
December 24, 2003 - 01:18 pm
MERRY CHRISTMAS, ONE AND ALL!
Lorrie
December 26, 2003 - 12:01 pm
Hello, Everyone!
I am finally feeling a little better, and am able to sit at the computer for a bit longer, so I felt as though it's time for me to return form the dead, so to speak!
First of all, I can't thank Alf enough for the splendid way she came in here and took over this discussion, and what a wonderful job she did! Whenever she reads a book she likes, Alf's reaction is always enthusiastic in a discussion and that was apparent here.
I would also like to thank all of you for the wonderful cards, email and good wishes so many of you sent----so many that I will never be able to respond to each one. I am so lucky to be a discussion leader to such a wonderful group of readers on these boards----None of you know the meaning of the words, petty, selfish, or self-centered. I am impressed with the actual good will and sympathy I received.
I've been reading over your posts, and even though I cannot respond individually, I am truly admiring of the different impressions each of Monk's characters seemed to leave you with----no one can say that our readers and posters here are cloned.
JudyW, you mentioned that you would like to keep the discussion open for a bit longer? If anyone else feels the same way I don't see why we can't continue on for the next few days, at least. Does anyone else feel the same? At least we can round off the discussion with some interesting insights into the book as a whole. Surely you all have some kind of an overall opinion of this, to me, lovely book!
Thank you again, Andy, what a splendid job you have done!
Lorrie
ALF
December 26, 2003 - 12:08 pm
Hey Lazarus is up from the dead. Hooray!! Lorrie, you always make it easy to jump right in when you lead a discussion. It was my pleasure.
We are so happy that you're feeling well enough to get in here and post. I, for one, would love to keep open for a couple of more days just to finish discussing everyone's reactions to the growth and maturation of our young Lily, throughout this novel.
Lorrie
December 27, 2003 - 09:02 am
11. Project into the future.
Does Lily ever see her father again?
Does she become a beekeeper? A writer?
What happens to Rosaleen?
What happens with Lily and Zach?
Who would Zach be today?
I've been looking at the questions above, and ruminating about what could be, or might happen. I see Lily as a very successful writer, with a secondary hobby of keeping bees, and a very active participant in the Daughters of Mary gospel singing.
I see Rosaleen as a dedicated Civil Rights attorney, who works out of Washington on a national basis, and who keeps up her deep friendship
with Lily and the Daughters through the years.
Zach and Lily remain friends, but only on a casual basis. Zach takes over the complete running of the Honey operation, and turns it into a merchandising miracle. Zach marries one of the daughters of the Daughters of Mary, and the pink house is alive every year with all the new family members, aand an annual reunion of all these old friends.
It's fun to sort of fantasize, isn't it? How do you see it?
Lorrie
BaBi
December 27, 2003 - 10:11 am
I posted an answer to Q. 11 way back, and I find I still feel much the same. I was right about Lily seeing her father again; I felt that had to happen as there was definitely unfinished business there.
Zach said he was going to college and would return after he had made a place for himself. I believe he will do just that. He and Lily will have to decide at that point if they are to be friends or more. They both will have matured and learned more about themselves by then.
Rosaleen as an attorney? A fun fantasy, but I still can't see her leaving the pink house. She has found a place where she can belong and be free. She can be active in civil rights right where she is, and I don't doubt she would be.
Lily, a writer, of course. And time each year with August working with the bees? Whatever happens in future, I think August, the pink house and the bees are now Lily's home of the heart. ...Babi
Arta62
December 27, 2003 - 01:05 pm
Greetings, Haven't posted for a while, but enjoyed this selection which reminded me of an old green book about ...a golden city or society of bees. Read it as a child and can't remember title or author. Have friends in AR who raise bees and have been trying to find it for their children. Does anyone have any information? Arta62
judywolfs
December 29, 2003 - 08:50 am
Lorrie, great to see you back!
Does Lily ever see her father again? I_m inclined to say yes, but not for a long, long time _ I would very much doubt if T-Ray would ever seek her out, I might anticipate that Lily would find him when he_s very old, maybe even dying, to try to learn more about her mother. I can_t imagine that Lily would ever truly forgive him, so he would color the rest of life.
Does she become a beekeeper? A writer? Of course she became a writer, since she wrote the book! Rather than a beekeeper, I think she remains a bee lover all her life. I also think she will go to college, perhaps following or inspired by Zach.
What happens to Rosaleen? I think that Rosaleen would stay on at the pink house and become one of the sisters.
What happens with Lily and Zach? I bet they would remain good friends, and Zach would continue to teach Lily. I think their relationship is one of sister-brother, definitely not a future romance between them.
Who would Zach be today? A well educated, political activist maybe a civil rights defense attorney.
Lorrie
December 30, 2003 - 05:11 pm
I cannot tell you how sorry I am that I missed so much of this discussion due to ill health, but I am impressed with all the posts that you wonderful people did make, and with the help of our wonderful Alf, saved the day!
This was a really great book, I hope you all enjoyed it as much as i did, and I see now that it has made the N.Y. times best seller list.
Thank you, all of you, for being such a understanding and compassionate group!
Lorrie
judywolfs
December 31, 2003 - 07:52 am
Lorrie & everybody (especially you, Alf) - thanks for a fun discussion of a good book. It's New Years Eve, I guess that means it's time for new beginnings, new books, new discussions. Cool. Happy New Year!
- JudyW
ALF
December 31, 2003 - 08:44 am
---------------- and a Happy New Year to all of you!
It was my pleasure to pick up the discussion for Lorrie. You are all wonderful.
Judy- I love that! ... New beginnings, new books and new discussions.
That is what makes me happiest.
BaBi
December 31, 2003 - 10:44 am
I'm so glad this selection led me to read "The Secret Life of Bees". I have enjoyed both the book and the discussion immensely. Many thanks to Lorrie and Alf. ...Babi
mjbaker
January 1, 2004 - 09:30 am
This was a very enjoyable discussion. I liked the book a lot,so I was glad to read the discussion on it.
I hope Sue Monk Kidd will soon write another novel.
Marilyn
Marjorie
January 3, 2004 - 04:26 pm
This discussion is being archived and is now Read Only. Thank you all for your participation.