Les Peregrines ~ Jeanne Bourin ~ 9/02 ~ Books in Other Languages (French)





Welcome

Privee de ses soldats, Dame Carcas usa d'un etonnant stratagme. Elle fabriqua des mannequins de paille qu'ells placa le long des remparts and alland de l'un ˆ l'autre, ells passait ses journees ˆ decocher des fleches sur le camp ennemi pour fair croire que la Cite avait encore des defenseurs.

Cite de Carcassonne Playing Cards


Won't you dust off your old high school French books and join us in our first ever attempt to read a book in the language in which it was written?

Commence au Festival!

Discussion Leaders: Ginny and Eloise

Stumped?     Try:

French-English Dictionary
or:
Travlang's French/English Dictionary
Interesting Links

Ginny
April 24, 2002 - 03:04 pm
Bienvenue, All!! Welcome! Join us in this first for SeniorNet, reading a book together in French, and what a book it is, I can't wait, we're scheduling it for September 1, it's used and quite reasonable on Barnes & Noble and we hope you will dust off those old French Dictionaries and high school texts and join us here for what appears to be a great book and a great time!!

A bientot (we will NOT discuss in French, there's just so much humiliation a person can stand! ) hahahaha

ginny

Elo•se De Pelteau
April 25, 2002 - 03:20 pm
There so many people who learned French in school and some also had an opportunity to use it for work or for pleasure. I don't think I would have been able to learn it late in life, but it is my mother tongue. We speak it at home with my daughter, her Irish Canadian husband and my two grand children. We all ramble on in the two languages.

I read "Les peregrines" about 6 years ago. I had didn't know much about the Crusades before so I learned a lot in reading this book. It is not hard to understand, I think, but it has enough suspense to want us to keep turning the pages. I am all excited about discussing a French book.

Elo•se

Roslyn Stempel
May 2, 2002 - 10:56 am
Used copies of this book are also available at alibris.com. I ordered one for $4.95.

Eloise, I somehow got the impression that this novel is what the American book trade labels "young adult," meaning only that the prose style is not too taxing and there is little if any sex in it.. YA's are usually well plotted and there is no reason to reject a book on the basis of the classification alone. Since you have already read it, and said you "loved it to distraction" -- a phrase I recently encountered for the first time in Iris Murdoch's "A Severed Head" -- I'd be interested in knowing your opinion . Thanks--

Ros

Ginny
May 2, 2002 - 03:43 pm
Super Ros, good to see you here, I'm quite excited about it and looking forward to it and I know that Mme, now in Paris, has also expressed the desire to read with us also and I think that would be fabulous, so it's a go then!

I think Les Peregrines is a perfect first selection, we will learn more about the Crusades and it has a rave review from our own Eloise! After we read it we can then decide on another, I've been "peeking" and it's going to be a treat and a challenge for me, I'm really looking forward to it. It's not often you get to read in such company and I know Eloise will be able to ease us over any rough spots since it's her native language, I need to get a new dictionary.

Everybody, come on down, this should be fun and I guarantee you it will be slow if I'm in it!

ginny

Elo•se De Pelteau
May 3, 2002 - 05:47 am
Roslyn - Thanks for showing an interest in 'Les Peregrines'. Exactly, it is a Young Adult Classification, a little sex towards the end, and it is not the purpose of the book. The theme is definitely historical with a family of 10 (I think), leaving on a Crusade from the city of Chartres, where the famous cathedral is to go and 'save' the Holy Land from the 'infidels'. They walked all the way to Israel, encountering innumerable difficulties along the way. Each character has its unique personality. Jeanne Bourin is an author who does not use flourishing style and complicated words to enhance her plot. The action is constantly moving with each character's sentiment carefuly outlined.

As a woman, I can relate to the characters of this book because the women have a most important part to play in this historical novel. I don't think that people will have to refer to the dictionary too often to get the drift of the story. I learned English by just copying text, seldom stopping for the exact meaning of words. Usage is the best teacher.

Ginny, I wonder if the person posting excerpts will have the accents on the keyboard, because otherwise, the French language loses a lot of its meaning. I leave next week for 6 weeks, will be back in July, full of expectations. I didn't find the book in Second Hand stores yet, but I will when times approaches. I can't order it from the US, it would be the same price as new with the exchange.

Elo•se

MmeW
May 10, 2002 - 04:57 pm
Hi, Ginny! I'm back. I can't believe (of course, I can) that you have chosen another gigantic book! I've ordered it from alibris (thanks, Roslyn) anyway--all 470 pages! Grrrr.

There's a great chart for PC accents at http://www.wordinfo.com/how_to/accww7.htm

The Mac is so easy we don't need a chart, haha.

Ginny
May 10, 2002 - 05:41 pm
MME!~! Bienvenue! Vous (this is pitiful) avez retourne from Paris!!

How was your trip, how were the hotels, how was Vaux (Eloise has just left and we're just nattering away here)...big book, you say? hahahaha I will do well to get thru page uno! hahaahaha I MUST get some kind of new dictionary, mine is ancien!

So how WAS it, let's talk of France, what did you see Medieval or WHATEVER? And how was the security going out? IN?

Dites to us all. haahahahaha

(What's French for "I have a puncture," am getting a bit bug eyed about driving and do not know that word?)

I understand il ne marche pas. But how do you frantically say on the phone au secours, I have le puncture? hahaahhaa

So glad you're back!

ginny

Ginny
May 10, 2002 - 05:44 pm
AND we now have a quorum so we can move on up to Coming Attractions because we are cerainly both!

ginny

betty gregory
May 10, 2002 - 07:57 pm
J'ai tire mal.....or some such.

I am soooo jeolous that you guys are doing this. Right after I thought "yes, I will," I began picturing what the first page would be like, then the 2nd page. If I have to look up 150 words on every page, then the fun would be gone about page 4, or so. My French in high school and college stayed with me for years, but has faded dramatically the last 10 or 20 years. So, it would be frustrating and not that much fun.....but I can still envy your experience. Have fun!!!!!!!

Betty, n'est pas, haricot vert, pomme de terre, il ni a pas de quas (your welcome?) quelle heure est'il?, qu'est que vous dite? (what did you say?) le chat, moi chat est juenne (did I say, my cat is yellow or young?) That's it. Those are the remnants. C'est toute!!

Ginny
May 11, 2002 - 04:47 am
Marvelous point as per always Betty (what are you SAYING up there?) hahaahha

I will copy over the first page so you can see if you have to look up all 150 words hahahahaha and put them in a clickable, I mean really, do any of us look like we're in the 9th grade? You'd be surprised at what you remember, don't give up the ship yet, let me print OUT the first 150 in an HTML page (will be next week) and you see if you recognize ONE.

NO FAIR counting the medieval words, (I remember Ivanhoe, what fun the vocabulary) that's half the fun of the thing, the educational value there. You know what? Even if a person took 8 years of French, he might not be up on the Crusades words, I have a feeling we will need a glossary for ...and I have a feeling this is going to be great fun!

Never say "Nevair!" hahahahaha

Wait and see and thank you for that excellent suggestion and focus.

ginny

Justin
May 11, 2002 - 11:09 pm
Ros; I am going to join you and Eloise on this one. Jeanne Bourin writes French so simply that anyone with a little skill can read quite well. I read Les Peregrines some years ago and am more than willing to do it again. She writes what I call french-french ie; she is a French speaking person writing in French. That is quite different than a French translation of a English work. In french- french one finds French constructs which are not quite same as English constructs. However, I found that it does not take long to get used to French-French. I am looking forward to the pleasure, Ros, and I hope the start date is not long after Eloise returns from Spain.

Justin
May 11, 2002 - 11:13 pm
Ros; We are going to find it necessary to do something about accents. Eloise tried to help me with accents a while back but I was unable to follow through successfully.

Justin
May 11, 2002 - 11:17 pm
Ginny: I see you are the guiding light for this work. Sorry, I thought Ros was doing it. I'm with you.

Justin
May 11, 2002 - 11:28 pm
Betty Gregory; Reading is slow at the beginning but by page four you're knocking off sentences and by page twenty or so paragraphs seem easy and before you know it you're doing several pages in a sitting. Try it. You'll like it. Besides, I know that Eloise will make it all seem tres facile.

Ginny
May 12, 2002 - 09:30 am
Justin!! Merveilleux!! Welcome! ahhaaha, that's about all the French I have actually, and had to drag out my 73 year old Gascs to get that far!

I LOVED your take on the "french-french!!!!!!!" So you say we will actually be getting the REAL French perspective, and it IS different, thank you for that!

You are ALL bright lights here and your guidance already is exciting, I love your attitude, Justin!

Now I'm vraiment excited about this thing, what FUN!

Come one, come all (comment dit on that in French?) hahahaahha

I still can't say I have a puncture in my tire!

ahahahha

Will work on the first 150 words tomorrow,

ginny

Roslyn Stempel
May 12, 2002 - 09:50 am
I figure it is taking me about an hour to read 25 pages or so, allowing for looking up in my petite Larousse 2 or 3 definitions per page and depending on context to grasp the rest. (I long ago formed the habit of using the French/French dictionary rather than French/English; once having reached that level of fluency it is helpful, rather than otherwise, to follow that system.)As the book is over 500 pages I figure on at least 2 weeks of attentive reading. It might go faster as one gets more fully into the plot; so far we're just in the preliminary stages of constant prayer and slowly setting sail toward Jerusalem.

This appears to be a typical historical romance, one which I wouldn't exactly characterize as "literature" but which appears to be quite interesting because of the setting and plot and the incidental information about the Crusades. I've promised myself to compare a page of text, further along in the romance, with a page from, say, L'etranger or La Peste or something of Colette's. If you are serious about going ahead with this I'd recommend, or at least respectfully suggest, that a chapter-by-chapter summary of the plot and a little bit of background be provided to encourage readers to stick with it.For example, having just read through a passage describing a family disaster I was pretty sure I could have summarized its several pages in about 2 paragraphs by omitting details ofthe suspense, emotionality, and prayers in the original, as well as the lingering descriptions of the handsome adolescents who are drawn like flies to the three lovely sisters.

Looking back at the list of suggested authors I spotted Pierre Loti. In 12th grade I read "Pecheurs d'Islande" with a fast-beating heart -- it was so romantic. Later I found "Madame Crystantheme," a touching story akin to Madama Butterfly. I think there might be some advantage in tackling something more contemporary, such as Bourin, though not any of the Simenon romans policiers because they are so formulaic.

Roslyn Stempel
May 12, 2002 - 08:06 pm
Justin, welcome to the small but earnest group. I am now into Part 2, and continuing to rely as much as posssible on context, which is fairly easy in this book. As you say, the style is not particularly taxing. I'm wearing out my oldest Petite Larousse, now coverless and losing its final pages, fortunately the geographical section and not the actual vocabulary... hard to beieve that the printed price on the surviving front cover is thirty cents. It has the advantage of being small enough to handle lying down but not so small that it gets lost in the bedclothes. I hope you will join Eloise and Ginny in publicizing this book, especially in reminding readers that they don't need to be able to write anything in French and that the style of this book is so facile that here should be no problem in grasping the plot and following the story as it develops.

I have a printout somewhere of the html code for accented vowels and will try to locate it.

Justin
May 12, 2002 - 09:14 pm
Ros; Les Peregrine is a romantic novel dealing with Medieval France and the Crusades. You pegged it. I guess it's not literature but it may be more appealing than Sartre's stuff to a group that has not looked at anything written in French since High School or college. The problem will be one of getting used to reading in french without having to cope, as well, with the existentialist qualities of Sartre.I think, as a group, we can do one or the other but not both. Jeanne Bourin will attract more participants. The nice thing about Bourin is that we have lots of historically interesting periods to chose from. We can live in the 12th century or the 16th century or in the 11th century as is proposed. By the way, what is the number of the list. Is it back with Beowulf's funeral?

Justin
May 12, 2002 - 09:41 pm
English speakers who would try to reawaken earlier courses in French in order to read Les Peregrine can adopt some tricks that have helped me in the past. Use an index card as a bookmark. Let the index card contain all the forms of the verbs; faire, etre, and avoir. On the back add all the common adverbs you can fit in the space with their translation. Very handy little document. It saves numerous trips to the dictionary. Buy a small edition Collins French English. Some of us use Le Robert Micro and you will too after your vocabulary buillds up. You will also find that an author's vocabulary is quite limited. There are words one prefers so they are used over and over again. You will get used to these and readilly recognize them. You will probably start out reading and translating every word but soon you will read for gist and translate crucial words. Les Peregrine is going to be fun because it deals with a family that accompanies a warrior to Constantinople on one of the Crusades. It was either Louis' or Richard's. I forget. But the trip itself is worthwhile and the land they invade is well described. If you attempt the reading I know you will stay with it and what's more you will have opened a whole new world of French literarure for your self and the French catalogue is very rich.

Roslyn Stempel
May 13, 2002 - 01:58 pm
Allow me to commend you on your helpful suggestions about reawakening one's French literacy. I'm not sure I ever really stopped reading but I think that the knack will return quickly to anyone who is out of practice. If anyone happens to have an old elementary text or book of easy pieces it should be fairly easy. I am still somewhat weak on the subjunctive.

Cetainly I'm not recommending that Camus or Sartre should be tackled here, atleast not now. I was simply preparing to defend myself if someone should challenge my ability to recognize literature when I see it.

MmeW
May 16, 2002 - 12:09 pm
Gosh, I guess I hadn't checked this in a while. Oui, Ginny, je suis rentree (testing accents); I'll send you a trip report?just ignore the Fodorish details.

Justin, did you try the link I suggested in post 6 for accents? I think keysetrokes are much easier than codes (but maybe they doesn't work here)? Mac keystrokes do.

The second-hand I ordered from alibris turned out not to be available so I am going to have to search around again.

Justin
May 16, 2002 - 07:34 pm
MmeW; Yes I have tried with out success. Perhaps, I am not doing it properly. I depress control and hold it while I depress "'", then I depress e or a but nothing happens. Control plus ' results in a no print.

Roslyn Stempel
May 16, 2002 - 08:16 pm
I'm just about halfway through Les Peregrines and if you haven't found a cheap copy by the time I finish I'll be happy to send you mine.

Are you Eloise or someone else?

Ros

jane
May 17, 2002 - 07:22 am
Justin: Are you on a Windows machine...with a character map?

If so..Start/Programs/Accessories/Character map, or Start/Progarms/Accessories/System Tools/Character Map ---you can either click on a letter which has the accent...or look in the lower right and get the keystroke.

IE...to do e I depress the ALT key and use the numeric keypad to type 0233 and what appears is e. If I depress the ALT key and type 0235 on the numeric keyboard, I get ‘

I hope this helps those with a pc with windows.

MmeW
May 17, 2002 - 09:36 pm
Justin, it might just be a matter of touch--brief Cntl+', let go and press e. I am teaching a French friend of mine the basics (and that's good because I am teaching her on a PC) and it took a while to get her not to be so "controlling" on the keyboard.

Roslyn, I am only MmeW (what my students used to call me) and thank you so much for your generous offer, but when I do a book for SN (I've only done two) I do drastic things to them because I have a memory like a sieve and if I want to discuss them after the fact, I have to mark them like crazy. I'm sure I'll be able to find one?I just picked the one from Powell Books because I have such fond memories of that bookstore, which I visited with yearbook students when we were at a JEA conference. (I may change my mind if things close up, but so far I think there are possibilities.)

Elo•se De Pelteau
May 18, 2002 - 03:14 am
Bonjour mes amis de Grenade en Espagne.

Because it«s Saturday, I have more time. But I read all the fabulous posts and I am so thrilled that we will be doing¬"Les Peregrines". I don«t remember who, but it would be a good idea to synthesize in English the parts we will be reading in order to keep the suspense of wanting to know more about the story. For having been given such a high honour in France, Jeanne Bourin just had to have had the respect of the Academia in this very cartesian country.

Hola Justin, just as you said it is an easy read, the story transports you and you feel like if you are walking with them on the Crusades as the daily concerns of each character within the family is described in minute detail.

I will try and come back. Elo•se

Justin
May 18, 2002 - 08:01 pm
Mme. I have been able to make the character map work but the "control ' " has not yet given way to my touch. I will continue to try. It was nice to hear from Eloise, I know she will be much help for everyone when she gets back.

Ginny
May 19, 2002 - 03:29 pm
Eloise! Benvenue! All the way from Espagna! How is it there?

How fun to see you here and Mme, and now Roslyn, does this mean you won't be joining us after all? I hope not!

I am fascinated by the Crusades and hope to pick up a lot of interesting historical fact here.

Dust off those old French dictionaries, All, and join right in!

ginny

Roslyn Stempel
May 21, 2002 - 07:57 am
I intend to finish the book and find it moderately entertaining but can't pretend to be truly enthusiastic about it partly because of its heavily religious orientation. As you know I am not a Christian.It's possible to see the Crusades as a succession of brutal massacres rather rhan as a holy war, depending on one's point of view. I think some of the historical detail is interesting and want to read more about the period.What do you think will be points worth discussing in the book? Ros

Ginny
May 21, 2002 - 09:26 am
I don't know, Ros, because I haven't read it yet, since it's scheduled for September I like to wait and be a little fresher if I can (read: my mind won't cooperate this far in advance hahahaha) and I leave Monday for Europe so I won't have a chance before then, however, just from what you've said I am already intrigued.

We sort of pride ourselves here in the Books in having discussions which can discuss all the points of view in any book and certainly the Crusades and the reasons for them will be of great interest and coridal, I trust, debate, no matter what religion a person personally espouses, this should be great fun, I think. I am looking forward, actually, to seeing all the perspectives on the Crusades and I promise not to mention, even once, Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Not even once.

It's amazing how many times the Crusades turn up in literature too, it's quite an intriguing period, to me. Your remarks have whetted my appetite but it's too big to lug on Eurail so I'll hit it when I get back in July.

I don't want to discuss the book now but I'm very happy to hear that you are going to be with us and that you want to read more about the period, that in itself seems promising, to me.

ginny

MmeW
May 21, 2002 - 01:20 pm
I'm having a problem (probably simply solved). I bookmarked this site, but it always comes up to the first page. It seems to me that when we discussed RR/The Corr. every time it came up, it came up to the last post I read. Is there a way to do this with bookmarking?

My second attempt from alibris was cancelled. Maybe I will try bookstores directly. :?(

Justin: html accents: Put &# in front of all these numbers and a semicolon immediately after (what a pain this is!) to get the accented letter following the number.

224... à; 226... â; 228... ä; 231... ç; 232... è; 233... é; 234... ê; 235... ë; 238... î; 239... ï; 244... ô; 251... û; 252... ü;

Anyone know how you do a happy or sad face?

jane
May 21, 2002 - 03:07 pm
MME W: A bookmark or favorite will always take you to the exact "page" you bookmarked. That's why that method is not suggested here at SN. If you would click on Subscribe instead, when you come to SN and click Check Subscriptions, you'll be taken to the first new post since you were there last. Another way is to simply come to Books and Literature and come to this discussion manually. Clicking on it from the Main Books page, will bring you to the first new post since you were here last...as long as you're logged in to SN, of course, so the software knows who you are.

Ginny
May 21, 2002 - 04:28 pm
Thank you, Jane, and thank you, Mme, for those tricks! I will put them in the heading.

You can't do those yellow happy and sad faces on SeniorNet, about the best you can do is and

ginny

MmeW
May 23, 2002 - 12:45 am
Hah! I think I've got it. If you remove the /+postnumber at the end of the URL, you can bookmark it and it comes up at the last page. That must have been what I did last time. We shall see where it comes up when things are going fast and furious.

jane
May 23, 2002 - 07:11 am
Mme W: Just be aware that you will be missing posts by using that method. If 35 people post since you were in a discussion you've so bookmarked and you use a bookmark and are taken to the last page of posts, you may miss the intervening 30 or so posts and see only the last 5 or however many show on your screen. You then miss the discussion comments/questions of a good many others in the discussion and may miss comments that are answers to questions you've raised or comments you've made.

If you want to use bookmarks and yet not miss others posts, you'll need to bookmark the last page of messages you read every time,ie, change the bookmark each time you've read everything in the discussion to that page. That is the same effect as reading a discussion and then coming back to where you left off by navigating to the discussion through the folder (or by using subscriptions).

Ginny
May 23, 2002 - 09:32 am
Thank you, Jane, for that explanation of the difference in the "bookmark" and the "subscription." I don't use either.

I use the Books & Literature at the very top of the page so I can view all the Books discussions and it will show me how many new psts there are in each discussion since I've been there, it's very handy.

I went to the home page on SeniorNet (for those of you who don't know how to do this) and made IT the page my browser opens to automatically. This is in your settings on your IE or your Netscape, I know Jane will be glad to tell anybody how to make it open to the SN Homepage. Then I click on the Discussions and it takes me to all the SN discussions. From there I can pick and choose and I always choose Books and Literature. I think you miss a lot if you don't and I hate something else jerking me around and making me go somewhere when I want to choose for myself.

Jane is working on a chart that will show how to get the accent marks up for French and Spanish, stay tuned, it will be very useful, thank you, Mme, and Jane!

ginny

Theron Boyd
May 24, 2002 - 08:28 am
In post #6, MmeW posted a "chart for accents" clickable. Guess what! there is an easier way!
Use this process to set your keyboard to do them in only 2 strokes!
On the start menu, go to settings then control panel, choose keyboard then language then properties and click on the small arrow in the layout box(right side) you should see United States International as one of the choices, click on it and then click on ok and ok again. now close the control panel and you are done. The accent keys are now activated and you can make all accents (ˆ or ‡ etc.) with two strokes. Just make sure to hit the space bar if you want the apostrophe or quote marks etc. to show and not an accented letter.

Theron

MmeW
May 24, 2002 - 09:27 am
I just realized that the chart link I gave in my first post on this stuff applies to MS Word; I just assumed that it would transfer over (Mac does). The numbers I gave above are html. Here is another tip I gleaned from my travel site (applies to MS Word): it seems like a lot of effort to me when all you have to do is type Cntl+mark+Letter, but they seemed to think it was the berries. It's a means of assigning your own keycode to accented letters (the example is the euro symbol):

Click on the "insert" menu heading; click on "symbol"; click on the pull-down menu where it says "symbol" and scroll up to "(normal text)"; click on the "subset" pull-down menu that pops up, and scroll down to "currency symbols"; click on the euro symbol and then click the shortcut key; assign something simple (like Alt+E) to be your shortcut; voila!

I've read about the international keyboard thing, but I think it would drive me crazy trying to remember to space before the comma.

Third time may be the charm?I think I have LP on order, this time directly from Powell bookstore.

jane
May 24, 2002 - 09:57 am
As has been mentioned, there are a number of ways to do the accent marks...the international keyboard, the character map, the number codes and these below. It's whatever works well for each individual. This may be handy for those who understand the name of the letter/accent they're looking for:








































There are several different "codes" for these characters. On Windows machines, there is also a Character Map [Start/Programs/Accessories/System Tools/Character Map.] where you can see the keystrokes for these characters.
à = à á = á â =â ä =ä
æ = æ è = è é = é ê = ê
ë = ë ì = ì í = í î = î
ï = ï ò = ò ó = ó ô = ô
õ = õ ö = ö ø = ø œ = œ
ù = ù ú = ú û = û ü = ü
ç = ç ñ = ñ ÿ = ÿ ß = ß
¡ = ¡ ¿ = ¿ ¢ = ¢ £ = £



N.B. œ has no name so number code must be used.

Capitals are made with same code...just capitalize letter. EX:

è = è

È = È

jane
May 25, 2002 - 08:52 am
MmeW: You asked about sad and happy faces. As Ginny said, the software here doesn't do those colored, animated ones you see at some websites. We're left to sometimes trying to use special fonts, but whether or not one is successful depends on the fonts on your own machine...and then those same fonts have to be on others machines for them to see what you do.

For example, if you have Wingdings as a font (see your Character map)...start/programs/accessories/system tools/character map

and call it up on the character map, you can see the whole keyboard and what keystroke makes what symbol. You also, of course, have to code for that font.

So...<font face=wingdings size=5>& will produce & I added bold to make it show clearly.

Other wingdings include J where the keystroke in the wingdings font is J.

Others are the following keystrokes after you've coded for the wingdings font. If you don't have the wingdings font on your computer, or if others don't have it on theirs, they'll see the keystroke or whatever else their default shows for that keystroke.

<font face=wingdings size=5>K = K





<font face=wingdings size=5>L</font> = L

Any help??? C [I hope!]

MmeW
May 25, 2002 - 09:34 am
Jane, Thanks! C You have no idea what you have unleashed! J

Ginny
May 25, 2002 - 11:03 am
Ah lookit at all you guys, many thanks, Theron and Jane and many thanks Jane for the neat chart!

hahaha, Jane, The Shadow, Knows: about the smiley face wingding!!

I have a feeling we have unleashed a "Smiling Mme" for the Millenium! (better than a Screaming Mmme, right?) hahahaha

Screaming ginny

jane
May 25, 2002 - 04:24 pm
G ENJOY!!

Yep, Ginny, that's the best we can do...don't have those colored, animated ones you were talking about here at SN, so ....maybe someday!

Elo•se De Pelteau
May 28, 2002 - 09:25 am
Bonsoir mes amis.

I have to laugh about all those accents. My son-in-law just downloaded something and all I have to do to switch from English to French is "alt shift" and bingo I have all my accents and when I go back to English I do the same thing. Here in Granada they have the main ones and I use those to write home.

I continue to enjoy my stay here and if anyone cares to read my experiences, I write about Spain in the Quebec discussion in Geographic communities. I just love it here.

See you later and Hasta Luego, Elo•se

Joan Grimes
May 29, 2002 - 07:52 pm
Bonsoir Eloise,

Happy to see that you are enjoying yourself so much.

My copy of Les Peregines was shipped today. So I should have it in a few days. I will read it but still am not sure if I will be able to participate here.

I have my computer set for the International Keyboard. So all I do is type the accents and add a space. It is so convenient to use when you use alot of accent marks.

Joan

Joan Grimes
June 3, 2002 - 05:44 am
My book has arrived! I will start to read it soon.

Joan

MmeW
June 10, 2002 - 11:22 am
My Les Ps arrived a few days ago (third time was the charm)! But I'm waiting till August to read, being a bear of very little brain (or short-/long-term memory.

jane
June 10, 2002 - 11:34 am
Mme W: It's great you have it finally. I've not started to look yet...hmmm..guess maybe I should pretty soon.

Elo•se De Pelteau
July 24, 2002 - 12:53 pm
Bonjour, I have been home for a month and had to write reports, but on the 4th August I will leave for PEI for 2 weeks, then I will stay home. Enough.

I bought my book today. I will bring it with me and enjoy it all over again. I am looking forward to this discussion.

Elo•se

Ginny
July 24, 2002 - 01:47 pm
Bonjour, Eloise, how nice to see you here again, Joan G! How nice to see you'll be joining us, too! I'm deep in the book now and looking up every other word, it's a challenge and a gas and I'm enjoying the entire experience mightily.

Can we take this VERRRY slow? It's fun even IF you have no earthly idea what it's saying.

I've just come from Carcassonne and have the MOST fun thing to share with you, Carcassonne's history includes the Crusades and I bought for some reason a pack of cards and each one is different with a different scene from the history of Carcassonne explained in French. I have asked Pat W to help me alter this heading so that we can include that and some of the extraordinary illustrations that I've found in a book called The Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusdaes.

A dear friend gave that book to me and it's a treasure. I have NEVER understood the Crusades. I urge you to get this book from your library just to feast on the illustrations. I will be putting up Crusade information pretty soon, there were 5 major Crusades and about a million minor ones and they all had different purposes, I think I can outline and name each one and our Tech Teams put it up in a link, it's fascinating.

While at Carcassonne we attended a sound and light show which took one character, Simon de Montfort and examined (by asking him as he rose up as a ghost) what his real motivation was? It's crudely done but it seems to stick in your mind for some reason, anyway I think we can all come out of this MUCH better informed and enjoy the trip, but I'm telling you, the old Larousse (or new in my case) is already very well worn.

Do you all who are more fluent than I am forsee tearing thru this as if it were English or dragging somewhat? Already the turns of phrase amuse and enchant.

Hopefully we can do a line a day? hahaha NO, not that bad, how fast voulez vous take it?

ginny

Elo•se De Pelteau
July 26, 2002 - 06:55 pm
Ginny - I am all for going with the flow. See what people want after we start. No need to set a pace is there? and no need to rush. I notice that the French Bourin uses is not comptemporary sometimes, Don't let that discourage you. Some words for clothing and equipment are no longer used, such as 'Bliaud', a tunic, tbat is often mentioned. Are you going to post excerpts? or will everyone have the book to follow where you are at?

I still love it even if I read it a few years back.

Elo•se

Ginny
July 27, 2002 - 08:06 am
No I don't think we can post excerpts because of copyright, Eloise, although I'm not sure on that, but am open to any and all ideas on how to take this, and I DO like your thoughts on a leisurly pace, prepare for whining from SC.

I am glad we can go slowly, thank you for saying it's not all contemporary, I truly thought I was losing it for a while, haahahah but once you persevere you begin to get the drift.

I hope.

I'm getting SOME drift anyway, hahahaha, I do like the cast of characters outlined in the front of the book, that's helpful.

Some of the constructions are quite strange to me, I can't decide if they are intended in humor or not, maybe once we start we can put THEM in the heading.

As we can see I will probably be the slowest in the room, but I think it's a fun challenge anyway, and am looking forward to it.

With so many fluent French speakers here I have no fear of failing to understand it, that's for sure!

ginny

MmeW
July 27, 2002 - 08:18 am
Hi, all! I?m back from my Alaska cruise. Thanks to my son and grandchildren, we certainly got our money?s worth out of the all-you-can-eat part. (I need to go back and reread the cruise section of the Corrections.) It was wonderful being cool for a change??twas 113 here in Las Vegas before I left! It was fun to read a John Straley mystery set in the Alaska ports as I visited them.

Ha! Peregrination was the word of the day yesterday on dictionary.com.

Ginny, I was reluctant to read Les Ps because my knowledge of the Crusades is nil, so I was delighted to see an article in US News and World Report (4/8/02) on them and cut it out to read before I dive into our book. http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/020408/ideas/8crusades.htm

But when I was looking for the website, I came across an interesting critique of the article: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2964/usnews-crusades.html

And direction to another article in Crisis magazine: http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm

Hope these references are helpful to us (I haven?t read them yet?still catching up on e-mail). J

I love Carcassonne! Interesting area down there with some fascinating history.

OK...How come suddenly my message is sans serif huge print instead of normal???? I've tried everything to fix it. I did manage to change the first paragraph to Times, but then it reverts back to Helvetica or whatever. And I can't change the size at all! Waaaaa!

Ginny
July 27, 2002 - 11:22 am
MME!!!!! Welcome back, welcome back there's nothing you can do about that font, this is something new? If you want your fonts to stay the same, you need to type in the font and color you want and not leave any spaces at all, that is type everything in one huge block with br br in brackets as the sole paragraphing.

I don't do it and so you see my fonts changing, ( ER.. actually they aren't changing??!!?? I'm sure this is a glitch, if you want Times you type it in once and then type as I have described above!

Thank you so much for those neat links, I will get them in the heading soon, we're redoing the heading, I have so much to show you all, and PHULEEZE don't ANYBODY hesitate because you dono't know the Crusades my goodness, let's get real, who DOES?

In this new book I have it says that in England up till the '50's I believe it said there were exactly 6 scholars in the whole country who were experts on the Crusades, but apparently now the tide has turned and people are more interested. That's interesting, we're, once again, in the forefront of whatever is happening in the world, even reading an older book.

We just seem to have that knack here in our Books, I guess it's called being AU COURANT!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's US!

Come on down those of you who have a vague memory of French 101, and have fun with us, we have retired French teachers and native French speakers and people like me who don't know from....come on down and give it a try.

You're pioneers here, those of you who are assembling for our own Crudade into this new frontier!

ginny

MmeW
July 27, 2002 - 05:51 pm
Ginny, I have never had to do that before.? How strange. Or maybe I never noticed it before. How do you change the size?

jane
July 29, 2002 - 11:04 am
Mme W. Are you using Netscape as your browser? If so, that would appear to be the difficulty. Since SN upgraded the software, Netscape acts "quirky."

When I look at your post in Netscape, the first paragraph is smaller and in a set font. After that it appears to be larger and a different font face.

I believe that you may need to use <BR> <BR> between paragraphs...instead of just skipping lines or using <P> to hold the font face and size.

Otherwise, to indicate a specific size, which again Netscape does NOT recognize is to use the code : <font size=x> where x is 1 to 7.

I'm going to use <BR> <BR> between my paragraphs and see if that makes the size and font face uniform. I've specified <font face="comic sans ms" size=4> and then use no spaces between paragraphs...only the break codes.

jane
July 29, 2002 - 11:15 am
That seems to hold the font face tag and the bolder look in some font faces. I don't think the size still shows in Netscape.

So, if you use <BR> <BR> tags you cannot leave spaces. Those spaces seem to cancel the tag...so it's either use the Break Code and no spacing..or repeat the font face tag before every paragraph.

I used spaces on this post because it's easier for me to read in the posting box, but I had to repeat my font face tag each time before the paragraph.

Elo•se De Pelteau
July 31, 2002 - 02:48 pm
Ginny, as I was browsing through 'Les peregrines' one young woman mentions how beautiful 'La Chanson de Roland' was. I thought about you.

Ginny
July 31, 2002 - 04:58 pm
I saw that Eloise! I think it would be fun to read that, too, I'm still working on getting stuff up in the heading, don't anybody despair!

Thahnk you Jane for that information, we appreciate it.

ginny

MmeW
August 2, 2002 - 08:06 am
Jane, then my problem is Netscape. Thanks for identifying it. This is so frustrating! I hate reading big print. I guess I'll just have to proof my posts well in Word.J

jane
August 2, 2002 - 02:55 pm
Oh, my, Mme...I'll assume you said something nice above since I can't begin to read it.

Ginny
August 7, 2002 - 03:26 pm
As you can see in the brand new heading (THANK YOU PAT WESTERDALE!!) we have a new set of exciting things to offer as we go.

First off, from Carcassonne, site of the 1209 I think it was, Crusade, we have two things, one a photo of the inner and outer walls and the other a set of playing cards with the history of Carcassonne in French, no less, and they are simply charming. I've put not the first one but about the 4th in the sequence because the straw soldiers strike me as ingenious, don't they you? There are 42 cards in the series and I'm hoping you enjoy them a lot as well as the illustrations which will revolve in the lower left hand corner, most of them from the Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusades.

As well we have some great links in the heading, please feel free to submit anything you'd like in the way of links, etc., and a Mini Guide to the Crusades, who KNEW there were so many?!?

And the title now has me wondering about Peregrine Falcons??!!??

This is difficult French, for me, to read, do any of you have any suggestions as to how we can handle this strange vocab?

ginny

mssuzy
August 9, 2002 - 02:56 pm
Glad I discovered this site, but where do I find Les Peregrines en francais? My local bookstores don't have it. Ebay? I was in Carcassonne last summer. Obviously the city has been named after Dame Carcas, one of the few French heroines in history. That city has been completely renovated to look as it did in the Middle Ages. You can probably find it on a website in France (wanadoo). There were 9 crusades that I remember, starting in 1095 with the Pope's Council in Clermont-Ferrand - 70 kms north of my hometown - in the middle of France. There were also 2 "children's" crusades, which you don't find too much in the history books. I think it was a great political idea, rally against the "Infidels" - and around the Roman Catholic Church - and take your feuding elsewhere. The Middle Ages are a fascinating period to me; but, in Carcassonne I deplored the tourism attack, all the plastic swords and helmets and assorted "souvenirs" everywhere. Dame Carcas would be astounded! If you want to read La Chanson de Roland in French, good lluck, it's not easy even for the French, we had to read it in school as one of the great medieval classics. Brrrr...!

Ginny
August 10, 2002 - 06:22 am
mssuzy!!! Bonjour! and Bienvenue!

Yes yes, welcome, we are SOOO glad to see you here, welcome!!!!!!!

If you click on that elongated blue and white box above the rolling ball for the Bookfest it's SeniorNet's B&N's bookstore and they had plenty of used copies for a song there en Francais when I got mine.

OH you, too, to Carcassonne? Did you get in the exhibit where Simon de Montfort rises up? It was crude but strangely effective!

Yes, we will need all the help we can get here, how are you all (I will be the slowest and most pitiful of the bunch, but look at it this way, you'll all feel very competent when you see how pitiful I really AM) do we think Les Peregrines means "the Pilgrims?" I thought it meant Wanderers but last night in reading a super new book I got from B&N, called Medieval Folklore: A Guide to Myths, Legends, Tales Beliefs and Customs, which I heartily recommend to ANY person, I found Peregrines listed as Pilgrims?

And so I wonder which this is!

You are so right on Dame Carcas, I am putting the tale of Carcassonne up in the cards, but I, as you have noted did not start with Card I and I need to because of course the town is named after her, and the cards tell the tale, I was so struck by her and those straw soldiers, I had to start with them, but I'll go back.

Our Eloise is out of town, and our Mme is likewise visiting friends but we all welcome you here and hope you can join us August 1 (I hope I can get past page 1 by August 1) hahahaahah

ginny

Ginny
August 10, 2002 - 06:31 am
Let me tell you all about this second great book, in addition to The Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusades,, which is just wonderful, but here's another one in paperback as well, Medieval Folklore: A Guide a Myths, Legends, Tales and Customs .

Now this one has almost no illustrattions, it's in the form of a dictionary, very succinct entries, and yet it's like your experience as a child, with the World Books? You'll read ONE entry and then there's another interesting one and you'll read that, and pretty soon you're reading a third and it's fascinating, quite short and sweet but you learn a lor.

For instance, I've now read about King Lear, which Shakespeare took from Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia regum Britanniae written in 1138. It was fascinating.

Then I read the meaning of "Legend," Thomas Becket, gargoyles: what they really are and what they were supposed to do, (and was shocked to see the church which we overlook when we stay in Paris, St. Germain l'Auxerois, mentioned for a particularly strange one! I have tons of photographs of the gargoyles staring in my hotel window hahahahaha. it's got Crusades and Knights, and is a SHORT primer which you can find out more about by reading the Ocford test. Am now reading Pilgrimages which is why I ask about the title here?

ginny

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 10, 2002 - 07:31 pm
Hi! I'm back early because of my friend's mother became seriously ill and she wanted to be with her.

Ginny, I read the book again once more and this time I saw in it things I had not seen the first time around. My computer is being repaired and I am using my SIL's portable and it does not have accents. Peregrinations means to travel, a series of incessant comings and goings, shifting, moving, displacement in several places. This definition comes from the Larousse dictionary.

It has nothing to do with Pilgrims.

Eloise

robert b. iadeluca
August 11, 2002 - 05:51 am
I plan to be part of this discussion using whatever miserable French I can muster up. I have Les Peregrines by my side (given to me by a very good friend) and a pocket edition of Larousse's French-English and English-French.

I clicked in on all the links in the Heading and, after reading them, became even more enthused.

While doing this, I will continue to be DL for "Story of Civilization." Can I, in return, ask some of you to place a comment now and then in SofC?

Exactly when do we begin?

Robby

Ginny
August 11, 2002 - 07:13 am
Bonjour, Monsieur Robby!!! Quel plaisir de vous voir ici!!

That's about it en Francais for me, what a joy to see you here, we commence on Septenber 1, and Eliose, thank you for that definition, so they were NOT on a pilgrimage, I appreciate that distinction, please keep MOI straight, I had told somebody else it meant wandering when I began thinking of the Peregrine falcon and then noticed an entry under Pligrminage in the Medieval Folklore book in which Dante referred to the peregrines as "pilgrims," so naturally assumed and we know what that makes out of me. hahahahaha

Robby, bien sur, I shall attend your SoC in exchange, a good deal~!

Welcome, Everyone, please do NOT be put off with the specialized words, we will try to get them in the heading here asap, it's like reading Casear? They will be used again!

ginny

robert b. iadeluca
August 11, 2002 - 09:03 am
So we "begin" eleven days ago? What have I missed? I haven't even opened the cover.

Robby

patwest
August 11, 2002 - 09:13 am
Barnes & Noble has 11 copies of Les Peregrines

http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/oopbooks/oopResultsTitle.asp?userid=0C8CKDTH75&mscssid=M7K88K3VT3X29N7L183S5GJHQT1D4XAF&sourceid=00000211283368667105&title=Les+P%E9r%E9grines&rstart=1&WID=6609554

Or click on the Book Cover above.

jane
August 11, 2002 - 09:17 am
Robby...I believe that's a typo in Ginny's post. All the schedules and the top title bar here all say September 1, 2002, for the start of this discussion.

robert b. iadeluca
August 11, 2002 - 09:33 am
WHEW!! I was getting ready to cancel out "Story of Civilization" and close up my private practice.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 11, 2002 - 12:13 pm
I was most impressed and enlightened by the article in the Crisis Magazine listed in the links in the heading. I sat outside on my porch and read it through twice. It really requires being studied. Furthermore, it helped me to better understand what is going on in the world today.

Robby

Ginny
August 11, 2002 - 12:28 pm
Sorry, sorry, my brain is in the deep freeze, hahahaha don't cancel your practice, Robby, Jane is right, September 1 is the day!!

Well with that recommendation I shall print it out and read it again, too!

ginny

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 12, 2002 - 04:31 pm
"Promising to return one day, he struck a truce with Saladin that ensured peace in the region and free access to Jerusalem for unarmed pilgrims" Crisis Magazine.

Sorry folks, I still have a lot to learn.

MsSuzy - If you email me your full name, (I have your address) I will send you a copy of Peregrines that I found for you.

Robby - I will see you in S of C.

Elo•se

MmeW
August 12, 2002 - 05:35 pm
Robby, I'm glad the Crisis article was worthwhile. I have a terrible habit of finding info on the web and then saving it to read later because it's so dense. I'll print myself up a copy?it'll be interesting to read it in contrast to the Newsweek article.

I'm glad to see you all haven't taken off running yet cuz I haven't started due to lack of memory (and I'm not talking computer). I think I'll start about the 15th. Right now I'm trying to finish a Henri Troyat novel that I started in Paris in April, but put down after I got back. Les Ps should be very edifying, I think. I'll check in at SofC, but being a bear of very little brain, I doubt that I'll have anything to add.

MmeW
August 12, 2002 - 05:42 pm
By the way, Ginny, the Troyat novel mentions the St. Germain d'Auxerrois church, and as my bus went by I could picture the novel setting (but not close enough to see gargoyles).

Ginny
August 13, 2002 - 03:35 am
MME! You're back, what does the Troyat novel say about the church? It was in front of the church, apparently, that the famous St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre occurred, but when you read about that massacre, it seemed to have been ALL OVER Paris, not only there.

The church is full of grotesques and gargoyles, and has one with the stretched mouth looking right in my friend's window. Here, for those of you who have not seen it, is the view from ny own window in the Hotel de la Place du Louvre in Paris, that's the Louvre on the left and the church of St. Germain l'Auxerrois. If you are looking for a good hotel in Paris, centrally located, with rooms named for artists, you want this hotel.

I did not get all the gargoyles photos this time, as I've taken their photos before but my friend did, and when she gets settled in the new school season I'll put a few in for you, quite interesting, actually.

Here's the guy who stared in MY window (that photo above was taken from my window: a handsome gargoyle of Paris clearly showing the rain spout feature

ginny

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 13, 2002 - 04:59 am
I am really worried about the inadequacies of my French after reading here about 'poor' French.

Ginny and Robby, when I read your French, it is quite good. So don't wait for perfection, it does not exist.

Troyat is one of my favorite authors. I loved 'La Lumire des Justes' which centers around the Russian revolution....Elo•se

robert b. iadeluca
August 13, 2002 - 05:02 am
I will have to participate with a dictionary by my side, so I hope we will move forward slowly.

Robby

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 14, 2002 - 07:02 am
At the beginning of the book, there are several words that are no longer commonly used such as 'ost' that I had to look up. Ost is a feudal army. The word is often mentioned and it wasn't in my French/Egnlish dictionnary, but I found it in the French Larousse. But as the book progresses we become familiar with those ancient words.

I am really getting more enthusiastic about this.....Elo•se

Ginny
August 14, 2002 - 07:17 am
Yes, Robby, you got that right, about a page a week? hahahahah SERIOUSLY! The thing is SERIOUSLY difficult, now they say you should stretch your mind in order to keep it vital and a challenged mind keeps Alzheimers at bay, did you see that on the news?

Well Friends, challenge R US here, I can tell you that. But I know with the helpful and enthusiastic support of our group here even the slowest of us (that would be MOI) can enjoy.

What DO you all think is a good schedule, shall we start and see if we can even get thru a page a week? hahahaha

Will you all do just as Eliose did, bring here the strange archaic words, and we'll put them somehow in the heading and we can then avoid frustration?

I think the analogy to Caesar is apt, Caesar was fond of different words and structures, and was in the habit of using them over and over, I'm not sure if Bourin does that but it seems a normal thing to do, after a while you are cheerfully coasting along on your new vocab.

So!

quae cum ita sint (a Caesarism) Since these things are so....LET'S ROLL!

Please bring here your strange words so the others can pass looking THAT word up!

ginny

robert b. iadeluca
August 14, 2002 - 02:17 pm
Please note that French-Canadian Eloise says she is "worried about the inadequacies of her French." Just where does that leave us?

Robby

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 14, 2002 - 06:55 pm
Preux = a brave vallient knight.....Nef = vessel, ship..... Parcheminier = parchment worker.

Robby - We all would like to know French better but to study it takes time. I only meant that even if French is my first language, it is not as good as if I had studied it in France we all know that.

Ginny, I don't know if you plan to write exerpts like it is done in other book discussions so that we can discuss a particular page or chapter, otherwise how will we know what is being referred to?

Elo•se

Ginny
August 15, 2002 - 09:36 am
Eloise, thank you for those terms, you can see I have managed (amazingly enough) to put them in the heading above under the photo of Carcassonne on the left and will put up any and all everybody will submit, many thanks!

You asked this: Ginny, I don't know if you plan to write exerpts like it is done in other book discussions so that we can discuss a particular page or chapter, otherwise how will we know what is being referred to?

We have lots of different ways of doing book discussions here in the Books, but THIS one discussion is breaking a mold?

You all are pioneers here and I would like to hear from you how you would like this to be handled?

For instance, how many pages do you reasonably think we can look at in one week?

I would like to hear from all of you on this one?

We have people here of vastly differing ability in the French language, we have native French speakers and people like me who will look up, at first, almost every other word.

And we want this experience to be fun for Toute La Monde (if that's right) so I need to hear from you in the first week, will you want to try, for instance, a page a day? Or how many pages in one week? OR???

I CAN if needed, put a passage in the heading but if you all have the book I think I would rather save my energy and simply note the page number?

Any time ANY BODY sees a construction of unusual stuff (I got hooked on that "deja vu" right away) then please call it out.

I welcome you ALL, Pioneers, All, to this first and hopefully not last readings in French, please let me know how fast you want to take this, and please, those of you fluent, have patience with those of us who may, by the end of the year, be reading like CHAMPS!

How fast? I await your signal!~

ginny

Justin
August 15, 2002 - 11:46 pm
Suggested method: Read in French. Post in English with occasional French inserts. Encourage the fluent people to comment on the postings. Just to get us started. They will have a few laughs at the start. I suggest a page the first week, two pages the second week, and then increase until we are unable to handle the translation. Someone will shout stop.Slow down. By the way, I think , the word for Pilgrim is "Pelerinage".Peregrine is the word for traveler. There were lots of them on the roads in 12th century. There were also bandits on the roads. I am looking forward to starting on 9/1.

Justin
August 16, 2002 - 12:00 am
It would be nice if someone like Malryn who is familiar with the secret places on the internet, would provide us with maps as we go along. Les Peregrines is first a journey, then a long visit with distant relatives and finally a battle.

Ginny
August 16, 2002 - 05:26 am
Justin, many thanks for providing us what a suggestion or framework, now Justin has suggested one page every week with increasing doses as we get more fluent with great begging of our fluent Frnch folks (FFF) to help us get over the humps here, we all want to do this, and you ALL are pioneers.

I know if any person suggested we do one page for a week in a normal book discussion people would SCREAM and roll their eyes, however, French is not the first langauge of many of us and some of us have not seen it in more than 30 years.

I was thinking last night what I would do if it were Latin? We once considered doing Latin readings and even perhaps a begining Latin class. And I think if we did Latin we would not be amiss to start with a page and see how happy we all were with the constructions, background, etc., before proceeding, I like a scholarly approach, myself and the floor is now open to debating Justin's suggestion.

SOOO glad to see you here, Justin, please invite Malryn to come on down!

Any of the rest of you pretty savvy (I know Robby is) with the use of the internet and finding maps, sound off immediately, I too want to see where they're going.

ginny

Ginny
August 16, 2002 - 05:29 am
For those of you who are not familiar with google, here's a thing you will really want to know, just type in http://www.google.com and you'll see a blank? Type in there anything you like, any way you wish, a snippet of text, (this is how professors catch plagarism?) perhaps this just as I've written it, Reader Guides: Beowulf, and see what happens?

You can find anything on the internet thru google, it's fast and quick, give it a try! (You may even find yourself?)

ginny

robert b. iadeluca
August 16, 2002 - 06:05 am
I would modify Justin's suggestion. There was a time when I could speak fairly good French but 1) am out of practice and 2) the book contains words not used in ordinary language. If I don't want to go too fast, imagine the trepidation of those who had only a smattering of the language.

I would suggest we remain on the first page until the majority wants to move on. Then the second page until most of us are ready, etc. Making deadline dates increases anxiety and causes some people to drop out. We want to increase the participation, not decrease it. If "Story of Civilization" is any example, the interaction among the participants creates as much and sometimes even more interest than the book itself.

I don't see the name of a DL and I think that there would be an advantage in having someone who keeps us all together. (NO, GINNY, NOT ME! I STILL HAVE SofC.) As for what language to use, I suggest we speak in either French or English as we wish but that those of us who are serious about learning more French make a concerted effort to stay in French, no matter how miserable it may be. Some participants might find it a bit easier to understand the printed French than to try to speak it.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
August 16, 2002 - 06:17 am
Thank you for the invitation, Justin and Ginny. I don't have the book, unfortunately, and have no way to get a copy. I do browse here, though, because I'm certainly interested in this excursion into books that are in a different language from English.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
August 16, 2002 - 06:24 am
Question:--Is this a class or a book discussion? If the answer is "both," then, speaking solely for myself, I want my French to be corrected. I see no point in a class where I continue to make the same mistakes and no one corrects me. Others may not want to be corrected, and I understand that.

Robby

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 16, 2002 - 07:46 am
I read the book twice and really raced through it three weeks ago. I won't decide how fast we should go, it depends on the participants. I would very much like to get into the spirit of the book as it speaks of the Crusades and everything connected with their life.

When participants comment in French, it will make them practice and usually we get the drift of what they want to say. I don't wish to correct anyone right here in the discussion, but I will gladly make corrections in an email for those who want me to.

I liked Justin's idea that we first get started then progress as needed and if we go back to comment on previous pages, that's OK too. They will have a few laughs at the start. No Justin, I will smile because I will remember how patient you were with my own struggles with English. I knew there was a distinct difference between 'pilgrims' and 'peregrine' and I thank you for pointing it out.

I agree with Robby, but if Les P. turns out to be only a French class, then not for me I guess and I think everyone would understand my point of view. I am not a French teacher.

The Crusades in Les P is seen through women's view point in Bourin's book and it reveals her capacity to stay within the historical facts while she deals with women's issues quite expertly.

Mal, I can send you the book if you wish. I have an extra copy doing nothing.

Ginny, what do you mean by 'a scholarly approach'? I will probably need to be reprimended as usual (smile). You can count on me to clarify anything that seems obscure providing I understand it myself.

Elo•se

MmeW
August 16, 2002 - 08:38 am
I can only speak of my own experiences, but I?m afraid that taking it page by page will destroy any kind of understanding of the story itself and what Bourin is saying. I remember that in my first college French lit course I tried to read 30 pages an hour. My method was not to touch a dictionary unless I really had to (for a key word that was repeated often, or one that was crucial to understanding the passage). That way I was able to keep the flow going, as Eloise said, "get into the spirit of the book" (and picked up a lot of vocabulary just from context). (Actually, we read that way in English, don?t we?) I know for beginners that is perhaps too lofty a goal, but I would encourage hands off dictionaries unless absolutely necessary.

I?m still kind of puzzled that this novel was chosen for this experiment rather than a more contemporary story written in simpler language. The first line of the Les Ps, for example, uses the old French "chef" for head, rather than "tte." But here we are, and I?m ready to make the best of it.

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 16, 2002 - 10:55 am
MmeW - Yes, I read English that way. My first English book was Razor's Edge by S. Maugham and there was no dictionary where I was. I understood a word after reading it three times because of the context.

I think we are making this harder than it really is. Bourin uses archaic words here and there, but when I came across one I just read on and they provided their own meaning.

I know I will enjoy this challenge immensely.

Chausses = Knew high under pants.

Hauberts = cote of mail.

Bliaud = long tunic worn by both sexes.

Chef = head (sometimes it also means chief)

Elo•se

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 16, 2002 - 02:59 pm
HERE is a first map, perhaps we can have a map of the city of Chartres where those crusaders started from.

The above map is not showing the same route as in the book because they set sail from Brindisi in Italy across to Turkey and walked all the way to Jerusalem.

Elo•se

robert b. iadeluca
August 17, 2002 - 05:59 am
Eloise:--I tried your "experiment" and you are absolutely correct. I read the first page of the story (page 15 in the pocket edition) and just moved rapidly over the words I didn't understand without referring to the dictionary. Then I read the page a second time and the gist of the story began to come to me. In fact, some words which I hadn't understood, I "guessed", based on what was being said. It also brought back words that I hadn't used in years, e.g. "Paques" meaning Easter.

As I move along, I will go back to the dictionary to make sure I "guessed" certain words correctly, but I agree with you that this is the best way to enjoy the tale.

I'm also going to have to practice using accent marks such as the circumflex over the "a" in Pacques, but I'm not ready for that yet.

Robby

Ginny
August 17, 2002 - 06:35 am
OK all of your remarks have been super useful and as I suspected, we do have several different approaches to this task. Am very grateful for all your input here!

Thank you, Eloise and Robby for thsoe new terms, will put them in the heading, and I'll also put the map in the heading, it's quite fine, boy o boy what a trip!

Although we have no stated DL for this discussion, I am the Contact person listed above and will be happy to put anything in the heading you would like, just post!

So I'm not sure where we are, now. Those who are fluent would like for us to experience the book by not concentrating on one page a week but instead trying to grasp the whole, I'm willing if the rest of you are, Robby says he's willing, Justin, what are your further thoughts on this?

Those of you who have and are able to do this, please give us some sort of schedule for the first week, and JUST for those (I am assuming here I'm the least accomplshed among us) who may be a tad intimidated by looking up all these words, let's take it a bit slower perhaps just the first week or so? Our normal book discussions are divided into weeks, so what's a reasonable goal for the first week?

I must tell you in self defense that I did try (after having to look up every word) to read the first page without looking up anything and got nowhere, something about a blonde? So therefore we somehow have to have the wisdom of Solomon here and provide an experience exciting for ALL of us.

What pages do you suggest we begin with for Week I? This will be a total collaborative effort. If you want to reply here in French, please do so. If you prefer English (I certainly will not be able to reply here in Fench) please do so, we want not to intimidate but to excite everybody!!!!!!!!!!!

ginny

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 17, 2002 - 07:00 am
Tomorrow, I will write in English something about the first few pages to get an idea for those who have a hard time. It's no fun looking up every word and I often find that the beginning of a book is more difficult because we don't know anything about the story and because the author wants to put his/her best foot forward by using complicated turns of phrases. It gets easier afterwards.

Accents are so easy with a simple download that my SIL installed on my computer, by hitting the ALT SHIFT keys, my keyboard has accents at the ready on the right side of the keyboard under the "{}|<>?" keys and when I want to revert to an English keyboard, I hit the ALT SHIFT again and here I am in English. I use both languages all the time, so I really need it. The long way is so tedious that I too would be reluctant to take the time. I will ask my SIL how he did it.

Elo•se

robert b. iadeluca
August 17, 2002 - 07:58 am
Ginny asks:--"What pages do you suggest we begin with for Week I?"

Je m'en fiche.

Ginny
August 17, 2002 - 08:16 am
Why would that anger you, Monsieur Robby?

Comment?

ginny

robert b. iadeluca
August 17, 2002 - 08:26 am
That is a phrase that I pulled out of my ancient memory and I may have used it improperly. I thought it was slang for "ca m'est egal."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 17, 2002 - 08:45 am
Much of the French I know I learned orally and never saw the words written. For example, I read "se taisaient." When I said that out loud, it called to my attention "taisez-vous" which I had heard and meaning "keep quiet." I had never seen the verb "taiser" written but as soon as I said it, I realized that I probably had the right word as it seemed to make sense in the book.

Or maybe I'm all wrong. Just struggling along here. Saturday mornings are a bit more relaxing for me from my work so I'm taking advantage of the extra time.

Robby

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 17, 2002 - 08:47 am
I worked on this this morning to start us off. More later when I see that people are past the first few pages. May I suggest that we stay on the first 40 pages for at least a week Ginny?

Resume

The book starts off from Brindisi as the Crusaders, composed of several hundred soldiers and women accompanying them, are about to embark on ships to cross the Adriatic sea for what is now Turkey, (I guess) so they can continue on foot towards Jerusalem.

The family is composed of the father, Garin, a widower, his mother Berthe, his three lovely daughters, Brunissen, 18, Flaminia, 16, and Ala•s and Landry her twin brother, 15. Father Ascelin, a distant cousin, is their protector, mentor and friend. They are fired by an immense desire to deliver Jerusalem from the Infidels at any cost. They have been walking all the way from Chartres in France, their hometown. They implore God constantly to give them courage to accomplish their mission that the crusade will come to a fruitful end. An accident happens as they embark causing much sorrow for the whole family.

Elo•se

robert b. iadeluca
August 17, 2002 - 09:09 am
Am I correct that we will not only be reading and absorbing the story but that we will be discussing back and forth (in either French or English) what is happening? If this is true, then I believe that 40 pages are too many for one week.

Your resume, Eloise, was most helpful.

Robby

Ginny
August 17, 2002 - 09:14 am
Thank you so much for that Eloise, and our Pat W will render it soon into something permanent in the heading, many thanks, Eloise and Pat W!




Robby, isn't this interesting? I am so pleased to hear you say that because I think out of this experience we may ALL learn soemthing new, I'm quite excited about it, my own experience is the exact opposite of yours, more a concentraion on reading and translation, with not too much emphasis on conversation or day to day expressions.

The only way I know what that meant was by having viewed it out of curiosity on a PBS French langague series? Could not understand half of it but determined to pick up that one phrase, because I loved the way it was pronounced and expressed. hahaahahah You ought to SEE me say it, I'll show you hopefully in DC in October!

Even so I was not sure when you wrote it IF I was right, never having seen it.

I already feel exhilerated, am not sure I can read 4 pages, much less 40, but will try this afternoon.

ginny

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 17, 2002 - 09:15 am
What about one month then Robby, or more if you all wish it. I will just follow as needed. I just mentioned a week like that, but as you say there is no hurry.

I would like to know if a resume is needed at this time. I thought it would give incentive. But I also need guidance as to know what you expect of me and I will happy to do it.

I am off to the wedding of my friend's daughter, Franoise

Elo•se

robert b. iadeluca
August 17, 2002 - 09:20 am
My original suggestion, which I continue to believe, is that there be NO time deadline. That we follow along with the wishes of the participants with special attention to those who are having problems. We need to work together on this. We don't want any dropouts. Even those who read fast can help to stimulate the discussion by sharing their thoughts (in either French or English) about the characters in the story.

The DL, by "taking the pulse" of the participants can have a pretty good idea of how fast or how slowly we should be going.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 17, 2002 - 09:40 am
Lots of hidden dangers in this forum! I could think that I was saying "your mind is as sharp as a razor" and actually be writing "I'm going to take a razor and cut your brain into slices." We may need a mediator.

Robby

MmeW
August 17, 2002 - 10:40 am
Robby, "je m'en fiche" means I don't care, but in kind of a negative sense, like "If you don't hurry up, I'll go on without you." "I don't care."

I'm glad you attempted my reading method and it worked for you. I suspected that it might not work for some (Ginny), but I find it easier to follow the action that way. And Ginny may discover that it works for her after we have been doing this a while.

I think I'll dig into Angle of Repose in the meantime.

robert b. iadeluca
August 17, 2002 - 10:55 am
Mme:--Doesn't "ca m'est egal" mean the same thing?

Robby

patwest
August 17, 2002 - 01:26 pm
A new link to Plot Summaries ~ submitted by Eloise is in the heading.. A nice overview

MmeW
August 17, 2002 - 03:41 pm
Robby, yes, but much more polite--"it's all the same to me." Je m'en fiche is more I don't give a d***.

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 18, 2002 - 05:36 am
MmeW - Right

robert b. iadeluca
August 18, 2002 - 05:59 am
You can tell where I learned my French!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 18, 2002 - 10:06 am
J'ai lu trois pages deja. Ce n'etait pas facile mais je l'ai fait.

Robby

Ginny
August 18, 2002 - 01:33 pm
hahaahah I could think that I was saying "your mind is as sharp as a razor" and actually be writing "I'm going to take a razor and cut your brain into slices." We may need a mediator.

hahahaa so true.

I think that the part Robby said above where we don't want to lose anybody, is a good thing, and we will rely on ALL of you, not "the DL," because for the first time in our history in the Books, we do not have a DL at all here, so your roles are truly important.

C'est vrai? AM I the worst here? Let's have a show of hands, I have a feeling the vocab is throwing some of us orr? What's the French for Ollie Ollie Oxen Freeeeeeeeeeeeee!

LIke Robby, it's not easy for me either, but I'm game!

ginny

Justin
August 18, 2002 - 03:07 pm
Thanks for the maps. They are great for a broad overall view. These folks walked from Chartres to Brindisi. They took ship from Brindisi to Turkey and walked from there to Constantinople. This much of the journey was a daunting undertaking. I would like to see more detail if that is possible. Map searchers, "man your search engines".

Responses in French or English is acceptable to me. Some folks will find it necessary to compose in English and then translate to French before posting. That will be a challenge as well as reading the text. However, I think we can get used to responding in French directly but it will be difficult at first and quite slow.

I understand Eloise's concern about teaching a class. Perhaps, she would be willing to edit off line for those who request editing. Maybe she will consent to DL for us.

Thirty or forty pages a week would be much too daunting a task for this group, especially, in the beginning. I agree with Robby's first thought, that we should start modestly and grow as the group wishes to grow. We can't avoid drop-outs. We will be either too slow or too fast for some no matter what we do. My suggestion we do one page in the first week was only a target. Try three pages first to get a sense of the will of the group. I will participate at any level except 30 pages an hour. Je suis desole, Mdme.

Justin
August 18, 2002 - 03:22 pm
Let's see if I can find the accents. Je suis desole. What I did was this: I clicked on Start, Programs, Accessories, system tools,and character map. Then I selected e in the character map and copied the character.Then clicking on edit and paste, I received e where I wanted it to be. Is there a shorter route to accents?

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 18, 2002 - 05:18 pm
Justin -

Accents need to be downloaded and they are easier than your method. I can understand the meaning without them. Perhaps we should not make it too difficult to start with and only worry about that later when we are cruising along. Oh! My! My! what a challenge.

I am DL in three discussions already and feel that I have enough responsabilities right now. I said before I will gladly edit on email for whomever wants me to. On September 1st, I hope to see posts about the content. Do you have the book Justin?

I was looking in Search Engines for the route the French crusaders took as they started to walk from Chartres in France, Brindisi in Italy, Sailed across the Adriatic sea, walked to Constantinople and on to Jerusalem. I have not found that specific map yet. I still have to search in Mapquest.

Elo•se

patwest
August 18, 2002 - 05:55 pm
I stumbled across this translator page, in a post by Annie3 in General Computer Questions.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

Justin
August 18, 2002 - 05:57 pm
One must not think that because we put a map of the Third Crusade in the heading that Les Peregrine is concerned with that crusade. 1099 is the year of the first crusade. It was instigated by Pope Urban and was carried out by the nobles in conjunction with ordinary citizens. In that sense, it was different from the Second and Third Crusades which were run by Monarchs. In the First Crusade the kings of Europe and the papacy were at odds. The Pope at this time was flexing his muscles against the sovereigns of Europe. Urban wanted to be top dog and as a result, it was the nobility and citizenry who responded to his call for help in opening the way for pilgrims to the shrines of Palestine. It was however, a put up job because pilgrim access was not ended until the crusaders attacked.

robert b. iadeluca
August 18, 2002 - 05:58 pm
Here is a MAP OF THE FIRST CRUSADE which shows a very fine line hard to distinguish indicating the route of the Crusaders. However, you can click onto specific areas and follow their route from France eastward.

Robby

Justin
August 18, 2002 - 06:03 pm
Incidently, I think, the crusades continue to contribute to the animosity between Islam and the West.

robert b. iadeluca
August 18, 2002 - 06:08 pm
Here is ANOTHER MAP of the route of the First Crusade.

Robby

Justin
August 18, 2002 - 06:14 pm
The Crusades were seen by the arabs as Frankish Invasions. Amin Maalouf wrote " The Crusades through Arab Eyes", a work that helps to shed balanced light on this period. It was Saladin who said, "Regard the Franj! Behold with what obstinacy they fight for their religion, while we, the Muslims, show no enthusiasm for waging holy war. The tables, today, seem to have turned. Have they not?

robert b. iadeluca
August 18, 2002 - 06:16 pm
Has anyone here read the first couple of pages of Les Peregrines? I am wondering what that family depicted here thought about the Muslims?

Robby

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 18, 2002 - 08:39 pm
My feeling is that the crusaders were following their King's orders to go and deliver Jerusalem and did not have a clue of who the Muslims were except that they did not believe in Christ. Their orders arrived directly from the King of France through the aristocracy and the clergy and Crusaders were serving both blindly and wholeheartedly. Few Crusaders could read and write and be informed other than orally from their superiors.

Robby, your second link in post #125 is exactly the route of the first crusade in 1095 when Jerusalem was invaded according to the book. It should replace the one I found of the third crusade.

Elo•se

Justin
August 18, 2002 - 11:12 pm
The French King opposed the First Crusade, largely because Pope Urban ll, who was French,excommunicated him for adultery. That was Phillip 1. In addition,the monarchs of Europe were hostile to the papacy at the time of the first crusade because the Pope was seeking independence from them. Urban, however, wanted more. He wanted to control their appointments. They wanted to appoint bishops, a very lucrative position at the time. So the kings of France and Europe would not support Urban in his quest to take the "Holy land".

Urban relied very heavily on the nobility and on the common citizenry to man the first crusade. That's why Les Peregrines involves the family of a parchment master. If you read the principaux personages, you will discover that while there are ducs and a comte, and the brother of Phillip l, there are no kings other than the emperor of constantinople in the story.

It is the nobility and the common citizenry who fight the battles against the arab residents. It is not until the later crusades that French Kings become involved. In the first crusade, Urban is in charge of the military effort to "defend" Christendom. Bringing the crusade to fruition was the first great victory of the papacy over the emperors of Europe. This battle for supremacy of the papacy over the kings of Europe was still around when Henry ll and Thomas Becket had it out.

Justin
August 18, 2002 - 11:40 pm
The common citizenry engaged in battle with an infidel. Crusaders thought the palestinians had prevented pilgrims from entering Jerusalem to visit the shrines. That was not true but it was the message the crusader carried into battle. When in the heat of killing, crusaders made very little distinction between christian and muslim defenders of Acre and Jerusalem. The "Holyland" was not peopled just by muslims. It is interesting that both sides saw the opponent as an infidel. If the other guy wasn't wearing a cross he was the enemy.

This book should be very interesting to people who are in the civilization group. They know the inhabitants of the Middle East and the lands of the Mediteranean and their origins.

Ginny
August 19, 2002 - 04:04 am
Thank you, Pat, for your assistance with this very complicated heading, and thank you, Robby for that super map!

Pat will get it up asap, Eliose, thank YOU for your tireless work here, I agree with Robby, we must all pitch in to the best of our ability.

Thank you Justin for that background to the Firxt Crusade, I can't help thinking how little man has changed over the centuries, you can stil find people who will rally round to try to avenge what they see as "injustice," even today in our enlightened and television informed world.

I wonder sometimes about the effect that TV has actually had on our lives, for instance, had there been "on the scene reporters" at that time, would the Firxt Crusade have been carried out at all? Had the peasants known about Urban's real motivations?

Fascinating stuff, Pat, would you also put this book Amin Maalouf wrote " The Crusades through Arab Eyes", in the heading as well? Those books do not have to be links, but it's nice if you want to take that extra time.

So they left Chartres and went on foot to Brindisi, that's quite a trip! They had to then cross the Alps like Hannibal, right?

This will be fascinating, I just visited Chartres this summmer for the first time, myself.

ginny

robert b. iadeluca
August 19, 2002 - 04:05 am
Thank you, Justin, to helping me to better understand why the characters of Les Peregrines are engaged in this First Crusade. It brings fiction and history together.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 19, 2002 - 04:10 am
I remember shortly after the war taking the train from Paris to Rennes. The train stopped at Chartres and I "idly" observed the cathedral. Well, it wasn't exactly "idly" -- I looked at it from an architectural point of view but the history didn't hit me at that point.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 19, 2002 - 04:16 am
Here is a PHOTO of the Cathedral at Chartres. Shortly after the war I had the opportunity to study for four months at the Sorbonne -- University of Paris. At that time we learned about the different French cathedrals and I always remembered learning how the two steeples of the Chartres Cathedral were so different from each other. If I remember my history correctly, it was because one of them was built so much later than the other.

Robby

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 19, 2002 - 04:28 am
Thank you Justin for this historical clarification. It sounds just like the politics of today.

The characters in this family are all engaged in war and fighting for a common goal. They have grave problems to solve other than war, the same family problems that we face today. Who is going to win who's heart. Which of the three girls will be the hero•ne of the story. How are they dealing with women's daily tasks while they live in tents away from the comfort of their home in Chartres where they enjoyed the life of wealthy merchants.

Resume

Father Ascelin described the girls in this way: Brunissen was discreet and quiet, she had hair like burnt bread with soft brown eyes. Flaminia was adorned with a huge mass of curly red hair, so flamboyant that they seemed to crackle like fire. The twins had curly, golden blond hair with blue eyes.

Elo•se

Ginny
August 19, 2002 - 04:31 am
Robby what a wonderful photo, unfortunately protected heavily by copyright and use denied to us for the heading, still very fine photo, enjoyed it, I too did not realize all the historical stuff when I was there, and it appears you are right on the construction of the towers! LOOK at this!@!

This site shows you by text on the right and changing drawings on the left, the constructin of Chartres! I think it's beyond fabulous, Pat will you please put this in the heading too, am still looking for a phtoto of Chartres we can replace the one of Carcassonne up above with?

LOOK and wonder! Chartres theu the ages, a tableau vivant!

Click on Facade to see the fabulous construction!

Quel joie!

ginny

Ginny
August 19, 2002 - 04:35 am
Eloise, we were posting together, thank you for those wonderful additions to the Rsume, hair the color of burnt bread, she sure has a way with words, have asked Pat W to put that up too! Mnay thanks!

ginny going to look at the labyrinth of Chartres next, very famous!

Ginny
August 19, 2002 - 04:40 am
Holy cow, look at the rolling red ball on the Labyrinth of Chartres!

ginny

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 19, 2002 - 07:10 am
Yes Ginny and the accompanying text explained the Labyrinth's purpose. It was built for people who stayed behind so they could spend time in prayers while they were meandering and imagining that they were among the Crusaders.

MmeW
August 19, 2002 - 10:30 am
Very interesting info! I loved the red ball! Justin, this Accent Chart is a very easy way to make accents on a PC. It may seem complicated, but the keys you hit resemble the actual accents. You just need to remember that you strike the accent keys first and then the letter you want them over. (There is a link to the Mac keyboard at the bottom.)

Justin
August 19, 2002 - 03:52 pm
MmeW:Merci.

Justin
August 19, 2002 - 04:12 pm
Desol`e. Is the timing wrong.

Justin
August 19, 2002 - 07:00 pm
In the mid to late twelth century, there was a fire in Fulbert's Basilica in Chartres. The entire church was demolished except the west facade with its two towers and the Royal portal and a crypt which housed a tunic of the Virgin Mary. The faithful believe that the Virgin stopped the fire before it reached her crypt which contained some dozen or so survivors of the fire as well as her tunic. It was this church that the parcheminier and his family attended before starting on their dangerous plerinage and not the great cathedral we see to day.

Justin
August 19, 2002 - 07:17 pm
Fires were frequent in the churches of France and England during le moyen age and the church of the parcheminier and his family burned in 1144 as well as in 1194 when the current Cathedral was built. After the earlier fire, and during reconstruction, the faithful built the church with their own hands and backs.

Robert de mont Saint Michel recorded in 1144," In that year were to be seen for the first time at Chartres the faithful harnessed to carts, laden with stones,timbers, corn and what ever might be needed for the work of building the cathedral, the towers of which rose like magic into the heavens. Men and women could be seen dragging heavy loads through mire and marsh. Lords and princes, full of riches and honors, even women of noble birth, their proud heads bowed, harnassed like beasts of burden to carts bringing wine, corn, oil,lime, stones,timbers needful for the fabric of the church.On every cart candles are lit and relics are brought to sick workers.

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 20, 2002 - 06:54 am
Ginny - If I knew what Ollie, Ollie etc........ was, perhaps I could offer a simili translation, but WHAT IS THIS Ollie, Ollie??????

Good for you Robby. Now that you are getting into it seriously, what do you think of this story?

J'ai ete surprise en lisant ce livre sur les croisades. Je ne savais pas que les femmes et les enfants faisaient partie des croises.

Thanks Justin for all that information on the building of the Cathedrale de Chartres. Our churches here in Quebec were also built on faith and there are so many of them that if you walk in any direction half a mile, you see a big church.

Elo•se

robert b. iadeluca
August 20, 2002 - 08:12 am
Let this be a lesson to you, Ginny! You can't mention games from another culture in this multi-lingual discussion.

Robby

Ginny
August 20, 2002 - 01:06 pm
Gee this is so merveilleux I can't keep UP with it, so fun! Thank you ALL for your input!

Justin I just saw Mary's Veil in Chartres! It's on display there I'll try to find the photo and scan it in.

In the heading is a gorgeous photo of Chartres from Mary Ann Sullivan's page at Bluffton College She has kindly given us permission to use her photos.

And good heavens, good heavens just FEAST your eyeballs on this one! Medieval Art Hisotry Sites on the Web 2.2

You could lose yourself in either of those sites, but thst second one, where I got Mary Ann's, is unbelievable.

Pat might we have both of these in the heading, also?

Many thanks for the four big things you did here yesterday!

Robby: Ollie hahahaaha Olly, Eloise I have no earthly idea WHERE that originated, anybody?? It's a child's game, all the children go hide and then one runs back and gets in (do I have this right?) hahahaah the circle and calls Olly Olly Oxen FREEEEE and everybody is supposed to come running?

Or how does that game go?

j'ai oublie!

ginny

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 20, 2002 - 05:51 pm
Bohemond Prince de Tarante, a real historical character, plays an important part in the lives of "Les Peregrines" as you will read later on in the story. Please click HERE to find out more about him.

Elo•se

GingerWright
August 20, 2002 - 07:33 pm
Eloise, Ginny et al, Here is the web site for Hide and Seek:

Ollie, Ollie in free means you cannot be found and will not be tagged

Ginger

GingerWright
August 20, 2002 - 07:47 pm
Eloise, Hide and Seek was a game played by us children a long time ago as we did not have all the commercialism back then and had to make do with what we had but I sill remember it and am 69.

I do not post much and would not have at this time but you asked so I did my best to answer your question.

Justin
August 20, 2002 - 11:11 pm
The leaders of the first crusade were nobles from France and Sicily. They will be featured in Les Peregrines as the story progresses. There were four leaders; Godfrey of Bouillon, his brother Baldwin, Raymond of Toulouse, Bohemond of Tarentum and Robert Curthose who is Duc de Normandy.

Here is a little background: In 1090 the Pope,Urban ll, is driven out of Rome by the Emperor. In 1093 he returns to Rome after getting help from the Normans. In 1095 the eastern Roman emperor, Alexi Comnenus,appeals to Urban for help in driving out the Turks from Constantinople. Urban convened a Council at Clermont and pleaded for an armed expedition to rescue the holy places from the Saracens. All those who should march on such an expedition were promised complete remission of sins and eternal reward in heaven. Urban gets the help of Peter the Hermit in convincing the people of Germany, and France to participate in a crusade. Peter's people are wiped out near Nicea but Godfrey of Bouillon with an army reaches Constantinople. Bohemond, and Raymond reach Constantinople late in April the following year. The story opens in April 1097 on the shores of Brindisi, where les pelerins are in company with the Duc de Normandy and the Comte de Blois.

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 21, 2002 - 04:22 am
Hello Ginger, nice to see you here. Now I know that that game is 'jouer ˆ la chachette'.

Justin, thanks for the historical data. I must say, though that this is a romantic book where women's feelings are brought to the forefront and play an important part in the story. Bohemond de Tarante was brought out by the author to become involved in the family.

Robby - Vous tes trop dr™le. Ou en tes-vous dans le livre? J'attendrai un peu avant d'ecrire un autre resume.

Elo•se

robert b. iadeluca
August 21, 2002 - 04:31 am
Eloise:--J'ai lu quatre pages. Mais il y a beaucoup de mots ou j'ai besoin du dictionnaire.

Robby

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 25, 2002 - 06:23 am
Because many of the crusaders had never seen the ocean, when they were to embark on ships to cross the Adriatic sea for Byzantium, they were terrified as they saw a ship crash on the rockey shore and all those aboard drowned.

Liberal translation:

They had to pull those poor bodies out of the water by their shoulders and feet, pull them away from those who didn't want to part with them and transport them in several churches of Brindisi where their bluish bodies, as well as their water soaked clothes, littered the flag stone pavement. The funeral office and burial was sure to be performed later by the clergy of the city.

Elo•se

Malryn (Mal)
August 30, 2002 - 05:54 pm
J'ai reu le livre. Je serais ici quand la discussion commence.

Mal

Ginny
August 31, 2002 - 09:08 am
Thanks to ALL of you for your super contributions here, Justin with the First Crusade data, pat W is getting that in the html page, and Eloise, how beautifully you translate, what images, many many thanks, and Welcome, Malryn!

We begin a demain and let's take this as Robby said, slowly and enjoyably, those of you with facility, help us out, be thinking of some questions we might ask the group about the book as we normally do and we'll make this a total collaborative effort!

Love that passage, Eloise!!

A bient™t

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 31, 2002 - 10:00 am
Yes Ginny, I'll be here if anyone wants me.

Ginny
August 31, 2002 - 10:07 am
Super, Eloise! Thanks!

I have the international keyboard but for some reason have no earthly idea how to get the circumflex over Paques in the heading, do any of you have any suggestions there?

ginny

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 31, 2002 - 10:51 am
Ginny, on my keyboard, which might be different from yours, my ^ circumflex is next to the 'p' and if I do shift, I get the ¬ trema like in....Elo•se

MmeW
August 31, 2002 - 11:59 am
Ginny, I have no idea what the international keyboard is, but have you tried Cntl+Shift+6, release and type the a? On the Mac it is Cntrl+Shift+i, then a.

Justin
August 31, 2002 - 06:56 pm
^a, ^a A a aa a What am I not doing right? MmeW

Elo•se De Pelteau
August 31, 2002 - 08:17 pm
‰ ” e . That is when my keyboard is in the French mode.

Now, I will press Alt Shift again to put it into the English mode and where the circumflex was next to the 'p' I now have [ [ [ [.

When I bought this Dell computer, the international keyboard had been pre installed. I switch from English to French almost everytime I go on the computer.

The only thing is, they forgot to put an 'accent grave' where we need one over the 'u'.

Elo•se

Ginny
September 1, 2002 - 06:22 am
Bonjour, bonjour bonjour Mes Amis!

Thank you Eloise, I still can't get mine to work, will try later on today.

Here we are on our first day of discussion, our FIRST EVER discussion of a book in another language (to most of us) French!

This discussion will be different in many ways from our normal ones, at least the ones I've attended, in that first off (I had hoped Robby would beat me in here today) we've agreed to take it at our own comfort level, we'll find out today what that is, as Robby says, we don't want to lose ONE person here!

Normally we would have questions for thought in the heading, we hope we can continue, I have a few this morning to start us off, and I eagerly solicit yours.

I have a MILLION questions on the syntax and grammar, and structure and form I'll want to be asking the group when assembled.




I will say this: I think reading this has been one of the most enjoyable things I've done in a long time. I quickly learned I can't read it as if it were English, no matter what method I try, but the JOY is the longer you keep AT it, the smoother it comes.

It gave me a tremendous headache, one of the worst I've ever had, (I attribute that to the old brain having to think for a change?)

It's a challenge!
It's fun.
It stretches the mind





I was struck by all the idioms in the book, were you? And by the millions of words I had to look up.

For ME the best approach is how many pages can I read comfortably at one sitting? We can DISCUSS any number of pages you'd like at a time and move on when we're ready, as we've said.

I think if this is going to work, we need to eagerly try with the help of our French speakers here, our little wings.

For ME (and I fully expect to be the slowest) at this point 6 pages at one sitting is my comfort zone, so have come in here to see how many you want to discuss.

We had talked of 30 pages , I think we may be able to build up to that, we had talked of 1 page, we may need to do that, too. I am willling to do whatever you'd like, by, in my case, simply sitting down 5 more times if you'd like to do the first 30 pages now, let's hear from you!

Let's find out where YOU are, I stopped where the horses were swinging in the hold of the ship by the girths according to the roll of the boat and I stopped when it appeared that they were talking to each other? (declarer?) hahahahahaa




OK let's get started here!

  • Where ARE you, am I the slowest one?

    Here are a few Thoughts for your Consideration on the first part: (as far as I've read).

    OH and Justin, keep the First Crusade stuff coming, please, I know this is a story on many levels but when I hit the part about the anti-Papal forces I wanted to know more and wished I had printed your background. I have now.

    OK here are a few questions I had, will you add to them for our readers?

  • 1. The author begins the book by plunging the reader into the crowd of....what? Pilgrims? Crusaders? preparing to embark.

  • Do you understand the difference in the Crusaders and the...what are Peregrines? Note the presence of "Pilgrims," in the book, too. What would you say Garin?s family is?

  • Was the sequence of the shipwrecked persons clear? Where did these shipwrecks occur? AT Brindisi or on the Italian coast? Where is the action taking place, what town?

  • 2. The author has a wonderful facility with language and description, and a quirky sense of humor, are there any examples of writing you felt were particularly effective?

  • What are "Huissieres?"" (can't make that accent either)
    -What seems to be their role in the story?
    -Do you see any sort of organization in the group? They seem to be grouped according to parish and region, etc, but how do they know how to line up? Who is in charge?
  • -What are "chartrains?"(page 18, paperback)
  • --What is meant by "Cirier de son etat,"in speaking of Herbert Chauffecire?
  • Do the references to Blois refer to the castle or the region?

  • 3. Do you understand the Papal and anti Papal forces and how it affects the crowd?
    --Which side is the crowd on?

  • 4. The author is very clever in presenting the character and motivations of each of those waiting to embark by presenting a prior frightening tragedy for the crowd to mull over.
    --How do the statements of each of those reacting to either the shipwrecks or the resultant acts of others reveal ?the Peregrines? real motives for the trip?

    That?s a start, what did you remark on let?s get these points to ponder up and see where you all are?

    ginny
  • Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 1, 2002 - 06:23 am
    Extrait: La nef quittait lentement le quai, s'eloignait avec majeste du port d'ou ceux qui n'etaiet pas encore partis et attendaient leur tour, lanaient des adieux. Dans sa course, le vent qui gonflait la lourde voile carree, emportait leur paroles.

    The ship slowly left the quay, with majesty moved away from the harbour from where those who had not already left were waiting their turn and waving their goodbyes. In its race, the wind inflating heavy square sails, carried their words away.

    I hope a few of those who speak fluent French will also offer translation to some excerpts. I find that part particularly nice.

    This excerpt evoked in me the day when my mother and my sister sailed for Europe on the Homeric about 50 years ago and we thought they would never come back, the war had just ended and oceanliner travel was still risky.

    If anyone would like me to find Les P. here in Montreal, just email me and I will send it to you.

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    September 1, 2002 - 09:20 am
    Beautiful quote, Eloise, what what have my six pages stunned you all into silence? And I was so proud of them!

    hahahaha

    Let's hear from YOU!

    ginny

    MmeW
    September 1, 2002 - 10:16 am
    Salut, tout le monde! OK, Ginny here are some of my very best guesses! I would say Blois refers to the Duchy of Blois or the region. Chartrain means resident or coming from Chartres. Cirier de son etat = waxmaker (by profession?) (notice his name Chauffecire means "heat wax"). And since Brindisi is on the Italian coast, isn't that sort of the same thing? I haven't come to "huissires" yet. (Just began, haha)

    I'll leave the history for the historians (je suis nulle en histoire).

    But I did find this cool French-English dictionary that you can even add things to.

    MmeW
    September 1, 2002 - 10:23 am
    Also, just from what I've read, I think the Crusaders consist of the armies of the dukes AND the pilgrims accompanying them. They hope to overwhelm the infidel. Foucher de Chartres says: ...seul notre nombre fait notre force.

    MmeW
    September 1, 2002 - 10:32 am
    Just think! If Herbert married one of the girls, sending letters would be easy! They'd have the parchment to write it on and the wax to seal it with! Now if only they knew how to write (haha). Did they?

    Also I would guess that the "nefs huissires" are the escort boats that take them out to the actual ship they are going to sail on because Herbert talks about loading the horses et al: there's an opening at water level on the nefs huissires and they put out planks to an opening at water level on the other ship and the animals walk the planks, so to speak.

    MmeW
    September 1, 2002 - 10:39 am
    Aha! If I'd read one more paragraph, I'd have seen that their uncle, pre Ascelin, had taught the children to read and write Latin. I would assume that ordinarily people of their social status would not know how to read and write, only clergy and nobles. That was part of the Dark Ages, n'est-ce pas?

    Justin: accents?it may be a question of timing. Press Cntl+Shift+6 all at the same time lightly and release quickly, then press a. Don't hold C+S+6 for a long time or it will print ????????.

    MmeW
    September 1, 2002 - 11:09 am
    All I've seen about the Papal and anti-Papal forces is that Ascelin was able to tightrope-walk between them (diplomatically) in Rome, thereby assuring that his little group made it through the disappointing visit to Rome safely with few defections.

    Ginny: page 20 (top) is a confusing phrase "L'ascendant de l'a•eul sur Garin..." = "The influence of her grandmother (Berthe) over Garin gave her sometimes the feeling of having been deprived of her right of the eldest child and of the responsibilities which she felt completely capable of fulfilling and which normally would have fallen to her." (because her mother died in childbirth)

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 1, 2002 - 12:43 pm
    Peregrin in the Larousse: "homme libre qui n'etait ni citoyen romain ni latin", so the peregrines, were free women, not Roman nor Latin citizens. Pilgrims perhaps was derived from that latin word.

    Huissier according to the Larousse: "Officer in charge of procedures"

    Elo•se

    Justin
    September 1, 2002 - 07:09 pm
    The family of Garin fits all these descriptions. They are Les Peregrines because they are travelers. They are les pelerins because they are pilgrims on the way to the Holyland. They are crusaders because they have taken the vow to participate in the effort to wrest the Holyland from the Seljuk Turks.They form a small part of the army of the Duc de Normandy under the direct command of the Compte de Blois. They are camped on the beach at Brindisi, Italy, in front of the Adriatic Sea. Directly across from them is Anatolia. All those crusaders from Chartres are nearby. It has been eight months since they left home. That means they left home in the fall of 1096 and have been on the road through the winter.

    A boat loaded with men, women, children, animals and supplies has foundered off shore at Brindisi. Many drown. Garin and Foucher, both of Chartres, have witnessed the drowned bodies being brought ashore and now, talking to their families, say that on the shoulders of the drowned one could see the marks of the cross-the symbol of the crusade.

    Justin
    September 1, 2002 - 10:25 pm
    The crusaders are camped on the beach at Brindisi, a coastal town on the shore of the Adriatic Sea. Brindisi is in what is now Italy.

    It might be well to remind ourselves of the conditions of life in western Europe at this time so we can leave the twenty-first century and place ourselves on the beach at Brindisi. One has only to participate in the Civilization forum to realize that mankind remains very much the same. The things that change are the living conditions, modes of expression and the nature and degree of people's intellectual experience.

    Start with your own living conditions. You eat from plates using knives and forks. These pelerins ate from a common bowl with fingers and stale bread to assist them. You use a flushable toilet. They use the side of the road or the beach with sand covering their residual. Animal residual is everywhere. Hygiene is a serious problem on the beach.Pack animals serve instead of SUVs. One travels on foot. One bathes in rivers and streams and now, on the beach, they bathe in salt water. One depends on craftsmen for every thing. Shoes, weapons, baggage boxes, clothes, (those who drowned were wearing the same garments they wore eight months before when they "took the cross".). Carpenters and smiths were in great demand. The boats the crusaders used to transport them were built on the spot months before by advance parties who cut trees and shaped the spars and planks of the navire.

    Justin
    September 1, 2002 - 10:47 pm
    One thought about les pelerins. It is the pilgrims for whom the crusade is conducted. It was said that they were prevented from reaching the holy sites in and around Jerusalem by the Saracens and the crusade was intended to open the way for them. History has shown that reason was a false cause. Freedom of access for pilgrims had never been interrupted.

    There are many on the beach who are only pilgrims, who will only visit the holy sites and not fight with the army. Garin and his family is not one of them. They support sieges and mix in the battles.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 2, 2002 - 06:34 am
    "Start with your own living conditions" Justin as a regular on Story of Civilization also, it is easy for us to imagine what the lives of the pilgrams must have been in Medieval times. We take our comfort for granted, but it is only recently, about 100 years or so that we benefit from it.

    The Garin Family at home had a higher stardard of living in Chartres than most of the other pilgrims traveling with them, they had fine manners, fine clothes and fine language and the close proximity with the rabble made it difficult for them living close together in tents.

    Everyone's goal was to deliver 'le tombeau du Christ' and that alone gave them the stamina and courage to continue on their long perilous journey. Walking from the city of Chartres, they had walked across the Alps sometimes on narrow roads. These people were physically very very fit and strong, they could easily walk 10 to 20 miles in one day.

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    September 2, 2002 - 07:36 am
    Oh thank you so much Justin and Eliose for that wonderful historical background, I have many questions to ask!!

    Here?s my own submission (please note, on SN we have strict rules regarding the posting of illustrations in posts? The Discussion Leader may post illustrative material which enhances the discussion and which would not fit in the heading, so here?s a wonderful look at Garin?s profession, the parchment maker!)

    Most people think ?parchment? is nice stiff paper, and not everybody realizes it?s actually animal skins? Christopher de Hamel, writing in his Scribes and Illuminators, has a FASCINATING history of parchment and how it?s made!

    (By the way, ?in normal usage, the terms ?parchment? and ?vellum? are interchangeable.)

    He says:
    Parchment is made from the skin of an animal. The process of transforming the animal skin into a clean white material suitable for writing was the teak of the percamenaruis the ?parchment maker? or parchmenter.

    In 822 AD the Abbot Adelard instituted a parchment maker among the officers of his Abbey of Corbie in northern France.

    The preparation of parchment is a slow and laborious and complicated process. The skin was washed in clear cold running water for a day and a half.It might be laid in the sun to help it rot and the hair fall out. Often the skins are soaked in wooden or stone vats in lime and water from 3-10 days, scooped out and draped hair side out over a great curved upright shield of wood.

    The parchment maker stands and scrapes away the hair with a long curved knife. The bare skin , wet and dripping, is flipped over and scraped away again (must have been VERY fragrant by this time)?it requires a ?surprising delicacy of touch and experience,? not to pierce thru the skin, it is rinsed for two days more and stretched on a frame: Here a modern parchment maker stretches and tightens the skin on a frame.

    It?s tied to the frame and little stones are put in the ends till it resembles a vertical trampoline. any cuts as it shrinks may result in holes in the end product: Here, an original manuscript is shown with a hole, these seem to occur especially in monastic manuscripts, since they could not afford or did not care for the luxury of rejecting sheets damaged. Here in a late 12th c manuscript the scribe has carefully written his text around the hole.?

    As the skin dries the scraping continues and the screws are tightened. When it is dry the scraping and shaving begin again. Here is a monk using the particular curved knife (called lunellum, little moon) for these last steps:

    When the parchment has reached the desired thinness (by the 13th c it approached tissue proportions) it is released and rolled up and stored or taken to be sold: Here a monk inspects a sheet of parchment from a parchment maker, you can see the curved knife and stretched wooden fame below.

    Apparently it was a well paid craft, meticulously documented. The accounts of the Sainte-Chappelle in Paris include the expenses in 1298 of a huge quantity of 972 skins at the cost of 194 livres and 18 sous, working out to 3 sous a skin, a considerable sum, plus more for the scraping and more for the man who selected them.?

    ? Parchment is extraordinarily durable, far more so than leather. It can last for a thousand years or more, in perfect condition. Good parchment is soft and thin and velvety and folds easily.

    The grain side of the sheet, where the hair once was is usually darker in colour, creamy or yellow. The grain side too, tends to curl in on itself.?



    I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did, I heartily recommend Christopher de Hamel?s book Scribes and Illuminators, he?s the medievalist in illuminated manuscripts at Sotheby?s London and really knows what he?s talking about.

    ginny

    MmeW
    September 2, 2002 - 08:59 am
    Ginny, wow! Did I learn a lot about parchment?I did think it was paper. And I love the manuscript with the hole.

    Maybe I am overlooking something, but it seems to me that all the pilgrims are going for religious reasons. I think the shipwreck was in there mainly to emphasize how dangerous the voyage was and to fill us in on a little more history. Berthe says, for example, that those who became frightened and dropped out of the Crusade would be put Ç hors la loi È (excommunicated?), and Flaminia informs us that those who die on the way will have all their sins forgiven. Did anyone see any other reason to begin with the shipwreck?

    Frankly, I hope fairly soon that the characters will begin to talk like people instead of Walt Disney automatons at the Crusades Pavilion.

    Justin
    September 2, 2002 - 03:28 pm
    The works of Burin can be read as a simple little tales of le Moyen Age or they can be read in depth as we tend to read a book. Burin is an excellent historian and to get full benefit from her tales one must have some knowledge of the history of the Middle Ages. Much of what has happened before the encampment on the beach at Brindisi is referred to in just the first few pages. Par example: In discussing those crusaders of weak resolve Foucher mentions the battle at Rome against l'antipape Guibert. That battle at Rome is part of the investiture struggle which began in earnest in 1075. Gregory Vll, sometimes called Hildebrand, was Pope. He had declared earlier that the Roman Church had never erred, the pope is supreme, and that he alone may depose an emperor. No synod may be called unless he calls it. He may depose, transfer or reinstate bishops. He alone is entitled to the homage of all princes. That's tough stuff for an emperor to swallow and Henry lV of Germany, said "no way" and called a synod which in 1076 deposed Gregory Vll. In 1084 Henry entered Rome and had himself crowned by Gregory's replacement and Henry's appointee, Guibert, the antipape. In 1085, Robert Guiscard, a normand baron from southern Italy and friend of Gregory put an army together including saracens and attacked Henry and the antipape. Gregory fled to Salerno leaving the field to Henry and the antipape. I think this is the reference that Foucher de Chartres makes to the antipape Guibert and la lutte fratricide.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 2, 2002 - 05:12 pm
    MmeW - "Hors la loi" is outlawed, but excommunicated means that the church has excluded you from taking communion, a big punishment for Catholics because everybody can see that you have sinned, you have been excluded from the practice of the Catholic faith.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 2, 2002 - 06:04 pm
    Parchment 'enluminure' is a term we will see often in Les P. From the Larousse: "Medieval art consisting of decorating and illustrating manuscripts, books, of ornamented, colored letters and initials, framing and miniatures". All of Garin's family was trained in the parchment industry.

    Ginny, thank you for showing us how parchment was done.

    Elo•se

    MmeW
    September 2, 2002 - 07:22 pm
    Elo•se, what do you think "hors la loi" means insofar as the church is concerned? Does outlawed=excommunicated or what?

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 2, 2002 - 07:34 pm
    I have been away on vacation. Give me a day or two and I'll catch up (I hope!)

    Robby

    Ginny
    September 3, 2002 - 06:41 am
    A bright BONJOUR to all of you this morning, and Robby, how good de vous voir here, we missed you yesterday!

    I have several exciting things, I hope, to impart, first off a personal one, I had to go to a site yesterday and it was in French and no translation and I could not believe it but due to my plodding dictionary sit down with Les Per, guess WHAT?

    I could read it as if it were English!!!!!!!!! What a THRILL, this is sooo good. I am so pleased with us all.

    Also you should know that we're in the process of producing for this discussion a Reader's Guide which will remain when the discussion is over? You may see how the Search Engines pick up these things by typing the words Reader's Guides Nickel and Dimed into google? Nickel and Dimed is the title of our last completed book discussion here in our Books & Lit? And behold what you see?

    Reader's Guide: Nickel and Dimed

    We WERE first on all the search engines but Amazon has displaced us by one. HOWEVER this means that the work you do here will be forever available to any French student or reader who would like to read Les Per, it's much too good to lose.

    With that in mind will you please read over this new HTML page and see if I have left any of your own remarks out so far? I intend to sub title each submission, but am in a hurry this morning.

    Historical Background by our Participants



    Now while we're waiting for Robby, let's see what we all think about the motivations for this trip.

    We don't have a lot of introspective revelations of character in the first 6 pages (if that's where we're stopping right now, I do need your input there) but we have some.

    Do all of you think, as some of you have said, that EACH person is going because of religious reasons? Imagine this undertaking!

    Why do the remarks on the fear of some of the travelers who viewed the awful result of the shipwreck reveal about their own motivations? If YOU were standing on that shore in a line waiting to get on board and people were fished out in pieces as Eloise has vividly translated, how would YOU feel?

    (BTY, are they saying the cross was CARVED in the skin of the deceased?)????

    Some of the characters seem to be saying that fear itself is proof of lack of faith, is that how you took it?

    If not how did you take it?

    Does there seem to be more than ONE standard here for going?

    Inquiring Minds (how do you say that in French?) want to know! Hahahaha

    ginny

    Roslyn Stempel
    September 3, 2002 - 07:31 am
    A huissier is a kind of bailiff, a semi--legal official qualified to carry out legal procedures, supervise the execution of documents, etc.

    It seems evident that this family belonged to the group of noncombatants, swayed by the pope's exhortations and convinced not only that they had a sacred mission to rescue the Holy Sepulchre but that by participating in this endeavor they would win eternal salvation, who joined the crowd of the faithful plodding painfully toward Jerusalem. The plot seems to make it evident that these worthy citizens walked a tightrope between salvation and damnation and strove constantly to tip the balance toward the former. Most of them didn't engage in battle but participated in other ways, getting supplies, nusing, cooking, tending the wounded, etc.

    Ros

    Ginny
    September 3, 2002 - 08:49 am
    ROSLYN!! Welcome! So it seems to you also that these folks were going for purely religious reasons?

    I recall that not all the Canterbury Pilgrims were going for religious reasons, and I wonder things here:

    For instance, how would one know if one had done the correct thing, that is, if one had done the deed which would grant salvation? Has there been mention of indulgences or anything, is it spelled out, and if so, by whom?

    Thank you all for defining Hussieres, (still can't get the accents to work) I don't see them actually doing anything yet?




    By the way, you all may find it fascinating that the word illuminated, as in Illuminated Manuscript?

    ONLY refers to the use of gold used on the pages? That's where the "lumen" or light in illuminated comes from. They used LOTS of different inks, but...Christopher de Hamel in Scribes and Illuminators, says:

    ...but most decoration was intended to be coloured, and it was often illuminated.

    Strictly speaking, an "illuminated" manuscript contains gold or silver which reflects the light. A manusript with much decoration but in colours whitout actually having gold or silver is, technically, not illuminated.


    How about that? He's got a wonderful bit somwhere about gold how it was applied etc, sorry to segue here temporarily away from the family while we wait to see what you all think of their respective characters but I find this fascinating!

    ginny

    Roslyn Stempel
    September 3, 2002 - 08:57 am
    Ginny, I think , as Zoe Oldenbourg has remarked, that the people going on this expedition represented the usual cross-section of the devout, the soldiers of fortune, the profit-seekers, the power-seekers, and the truly military. The citizenry must have been ignorant of the actual distances to be traversed,the hostile terrain, unpredictability of the weather (they expected tropical scenes and were taken aback by the bitter weather) and the vagaries of fortune, including contagious diseases and injuries, that they were to encounter.The central family is depicted as noble, educated, socially acceptable to the Byzantine nobility, pious, and charming, though not, as we shall soon discover, immune from succumbing to mortal sin.

    Ros

    MmeW
    September 3, 2002 - 09:26 am
    "The plot seems to make it evident that these worthy citizens walked a tightrope between salvation and damnation and strove constantly to tip the balance toward the former." I love that, Ros!

    Ginny, I think simply the act of leaving for this "guerre sainte" guarantees them salvation, at least if they die during the trip. They don't need to perform any special deed, according to Flaminia on p. 14.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 3, 2002 - 11:18 am
    Ginny - You should not be having any problems with accents if you have the International Keyboard. Is it only one accent or several that does not work? I have a permanent problem with the accent grave, when I want one on the 'u' as in 'ou est-il'. The accent is on the key, but what comes out is ` and I can't put it over the 'u'. Oh! well!

    Roslyn Stempel
    September 3, 2002 - 12:44 pm
    Although I was unable to find any dictionary reference to the suffix -ain, from the context I'm pretty sure that it is like Angelenos, Puerto Ricans, Chicagoans, New Yorkers -- in other words, the contingent of pilgrims from Chartres. At the risk of sounding cynical (who? me? Gracious, what a thought!) we should assume that Bourin so far puts herself into the spirit of 11th-century Catholics as to appear to believe many surprising phenomena that we might consider mere superstitions, such as crosses apparently burned, tattooed, or carved into the flesh of the victimes de naufrage,as well as many other tidbits that we can expect to encounter in later pages -- in the voice of the author she implies that all these visions, events, etc., are encouraging signals from the Deity.Nowhere does any one of la famille Garin or any of the faithful see a hint that they should turn back before reaching Jerusalem and rescuing the Holy Sepulchre. I suppose it behooves us to suspend disbelief and identify with the credulousness of les peregrines; otherwise the book will be tough going.

    Ros

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 3, 2002 - 12:49 pm
    Just on what page are all of you folks so I know how much I have to read?

    Robby

    Ginny
    September 3, 2002 - 12:56 pm
    Robby, we're trying to decide if the first 6 pages is too much, too little, or what exactly, vous avez dites (I can't seem to stop thinking this way) earlier you had read 4, so figured 6 would not be excessive, what do the rest of you all think?

    Je regret that I'm having such an awful time with the accents, I will try Jane's stuff in the heading and do it the long way, please just ignore the heading till tomorrow, I crashed computer trying to install French keyboard and now my clock says 15:55, which is cute but i would prefer it to say 3:55, but I'll conquer it, j'espere! Thank you all for your helpful corrections!!!! They are most appreciated.

    A demain,

    ginny

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 3, 2002 - 12:59 pm
    I do about two pages a day but that is due not solely to my poor French but to the time consumed by other things in my life.

    Robby

    Ginny
    September 3, 2002 - 01:02 pm
    NOBODY's French is as poor as mine, so you think 6 pages might be OK to begin with?

    I must say I enjoyed every minute of those 6 pages and I truly am thinking more in French and this may change my life here, have never THOUGHT in French?

    I'm quite excited about it so far.

    ginny

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 3, 2002 - 01:05 pm
    I am confused. I say two pages and you say six pages. Six pages a day??!!

    Robby

    Ginny
    September 3, 2002 - 01:07 pm
    ah non, Monsieur Robby, desirez vous remainer avec les quatre pages quand vouz avez lit?

    Does that say anything? hahahaha NO no, we had proposed to look at 6 this time, do you prefer the first 4 which you are prepared for?

    ginny

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 3, 2002 - 01:30 pm
    But you folks have already read some pages. Just tell me where you all are and I'll pick it up from there.

    Robby

    MmeW
    September 3, 2002 - 01:31 pm
    Ros, actually I don't see the author so much believing in the superstitious events as the characters who tell us about them. The author herself seems to rather stay out of it (so far, at least).

    Yes, chartrain is like Chicagoan, someone from Chartres.

    Ginny
    September 3, 2002 - 02:22 pm
    Robby, we have finished page 18, we'll wait for you, we've got lots to do here.

    ginny

    Justin
    September 3, 2002 - 02:49 pm
    Eloise: Help us out here. On page 20, I read" Je me suis renseigne aupres d'un des patrons des nefs huissieres qui nous attendent au port." I translate that to mean " I am directed to one of the captains of the guide ships who awaits us at the door."

    Ginny
    September 3, 2002 - 04:14 pm
    This is zhqt hqppens zhen you chqnge your keyboqrd over to French you cqnt ,qke qny sense qnd you look like qn idiot not to ,ention thqt your ti,e is noz set qt nineteen qnd nine insteqd of seven o %CLOCK QND NINE SO I q, definifely gone for tonight qnd ,qybe to,orroz I q, qble to type so,ething in !english or French1

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 3, 2002 - 04:23 pm
    MmeW, Jeanne Bourin is a good writer, I might add that she is like an actor who plays a part. She is so good that we think that what she writes is what she firmly believe in. If you had read her other books you would know what I mean.

    As foreign it is to us, these people are all passionately religious. As we read on, this aspect becomes secondary to the story and we are carried away with what is going on.

    Justin, back track a bit, - to board the large animals, a large door is provided on the side of the ship and lowered so that they could easily walk on planks directly in the ship's hold at water level?????? (Really, I wonder what happened during a storm). Garin said "I think everything went well, I enquired with one of the captains of the guide ships waiting for us in the harbour".

    Elo•se

    Justin
    September 3, 2002 - 05:06 pm
    Eloise; Oh well, I got some of it right anyway. Thanks.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 3, 2002 - 05:22 pm
    Ginny, no, no. There is something wrong with your International keyboard. It's not you.

    Justin
    September 3, 2002 - 05:31 pm
    Eloise: The next line tells us, " during the crossing the hatchway formed a closed door with the seams solidly closed and caulked." You may recall that during WWll we used small boats with ramps that dropped at the bow and other ships with doors that swung open at the bow. They drew very little water even though the connection was below the water line. I suspect that bailing was necessary during storms on ces nefs. By the way, that was a fine observation about Bourin. I have read several of her works and confirm your observation. She understands the religious influence in her characters and makes them express a medieval mindset.

    MmeW
    September 3, 2002 - 06:58 pm
    Ginny, what you typed looked like what English would look like typed on a French keyboard (where the letters are in different places). For example, where we have z, the French have w (because it rarely occurs in French and that lower level pinky spot is hard to type); where we have a, the French have q, our m is French comma, etc. I don't think you want the French keyboard.

    My first August in Paris I learned the French keyboard and even now when I am typing French, I have a tendency to return to it, which makes my stuff turn out weird.

    Sorry, Elo•se, I think I'm confusing author with narrator.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 3, 2002 - 07:58 pm
    Now I have it Ginny. MmeW put the finger on it. What I have here in Montreal is a French Canadian language setting on my keyboard. See??? So your keyboard must be set on the French from France language setting. What you need to do is: Go to your International settings, set the language to the French Canadian setting instead of the French (from France) setting. Don't worry, you will still get French after you do this, I promise.

    I hope that this will work, and that is why most Americans have trouble with accents. I don't even know how to type with the France keyboard. The letters are in a different place on the keys in America, as MmeW points out.

    Please let me know how this is working out. I will try and help.

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 4, 2002 - 05:57 am
    In the French discussion, I was explaining to Bubble why we don't have the France keyboard (hardware) here in Quebec, we have the American arrangement of keys and when we type in French we have the accents available instantly by just typing ALT+SHIFT. But I have the feeling that it is not well understood because people think in Quebec we don't speak REAL French, so perhaps people don't choose that option on the International Language keyboard. If we used the France French keyboard, we would need two, one for English, one for French. French without accents is not French.

    Bulle - Oui, mais ici au Quebec, les claviers franais sont configures avec l'arrangement americain pour indiquer les lettres sur les cles. Donc, lorsqu'une personne travaille en franais ici, ils utilisent un clavier americain auquel a ete ajoute les accents franais en faisant ALT+SHIFT. Tout a parce que si nous utilisions l'arrangement franais de France, nous serions obliges d'avoir deux claivers, un pour le franais et un pour l'anglais et il faudrait adapter notre doigte ˆ chaque fois. Alors qu'en Isra‘l, vous n'avez pas cette option du clavier canadian franais, vous n'avez que le franais de France. Est-ce bien explique? ou est-ce obscur?

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    September 4, 2002 - 11:46 am
    Thank you ALL for your wonderful insights here, thank you Eloise, I know you are right on the keyboards, please, All, be patient with me one more day on the heading I realize it's in arrears.




    However you've said so many wonderful things! Thank you Justin for that super relating of the WWII similar thing with the doors on the boats!

    While we're waiting for Robby I have several new questions which I will try to get up in the heading.

  • 1. Robby asked about out of the law, I did not understand the full explanation would anybody like to try that one about excommunication and this out of the law or whatever it was?

    Roslyn, thank you for that splendid insight on the... I'm going to call Garin and his family Travelers.

    Now you said, Nowhere does any one of la famille Garin or any of the faithful see a hint that they should turn back before reaching Jerusalem and rescuing the Holy Sepulchre.

    Now my question is:
  • 2. It would seem to me that they've had plenty of reasons to turn back, note the reasons they give and the way they treat those who did falter? Did they have reasons and just ignore them?

    Now this part here I wondered at, too: such as crosses apparently burned, tattooed, or carved into the flesh of the victimes de naufrage,

    What was really going on there, anybody? With the carved crosses thing?




    Mme, did you say Flaminia said just going was good enough? Could you provide the passage?




    Eloise thank you for the guide boats, is that how hussiers is used in this book, then? Is that an idiom?




    I can understand their quest, actually? Would you believe that? I totally agree with all those who have painted a picture of how life was, but I can understand , even here in 2002, let me tell you why?

    I want to the Jubilee in Rome, was it in 2000? And I got totally caught up in it and I'm an Episcopalian! Yes I went to a Papal audience (most exciting thing!) thru the 7 Holy Doors and there were lists as to what you could do and I've forgotten now what it was called but I was determined to do everything on the list, I was THERE, with the other hundreds and thousands of pilgrims and totally caught up, I can understand why it would appeal and why people would go, especially if the church promised forgiveness or whatever, I mean it's a VERY powerful thing, so even now in 2002 I can understand.

    And if we say that the non combattants are only there to assist, they will not be spearing the infedel, who, presumably will not be giving up his strongholds (which it was erroneously thought he was barring the Christians from in the first place, right? Isn't that what you said?) without a fight, then we have the knights and Crudaders for that and the clergy, then the Pilgrims (how are they different than we are) and the Travelers who are going along, as we've said, for the reasons we've said.

    Does GARIN have horses? Are they HIS horses? If so why does he need them?

    Does the age of his mother surprise you a little bit? Wouldn't she be an ancient crone in 1000AD?

    MOre.....
  • Ginny
    September 4, 2002 - 11:55 am
    Oh one other thing, thank you all so VERY much for talking TO each other? Our best discussions occur when people discuss with the other participants the various points of the book. I personally love this discussion and with your considerable help, I hope to make French reading a permanent fixture in our Books offerings, it will take all of us, you are all more skilled than I, thank you for your help.

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 4, 2002 - 12:09 pm
    To help us visualize the enormous task of feeding, housing, nursing, clothing this huge mass of crusaders accompanied by some of their wives, servents, children, parents, I cannot but compare what we need every day for our basic comfort. They brought animals for food, who also needed to be fed and watered. They slept in tents, their clothes seldom washed. I read the followin on page 24 (my book is hard cover so it is a different page for the pocketbook edition):

    "Among the walkers, cavaliers, mules, horses some pulling incredible wheel barrows, carriages or 'basternes' on top of which chests, bags, barrels, bundles in the midst of which men, women, the poor, the rich, children, elderly, traders and 'gens d'armes' either soldiers or policemen, good girls, bad girls, farmers and city dwellers, the sick or the healthy, thiefs and honest artisans were rubbing shoulders, Brunissens was marching ahead with her heart pulling her back."

    Just imagine what life must have been like day after day rain or shine.

    Elo•se

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 4, 2002 - 04:39 pm
    J'essaie de "catch up." Comment dit-on cela en francais?

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 4, 2002 - 04:49 pm
    J'essaye de me rattraper.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 4, 2002 - 04:56 pm
    Comme j'ai dit:--"Je essaye de me rattraper."

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 4, 2002 - 05:03 pm
    Non, j'essaye de me rattraper.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 4, 2002 - 05:09 pm
    J'essaye, tu essaye, il essaye, nous essayons, vous essayez, tout le monde essayent.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 4, 2002 - 05:15 pm
    Ok, mais il faut un 's' ˆ la deuxime personne du singulier, "tu essayes". Gotcha.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 4, 2002 - 05:41 pm
    Sprechen zie Deutsch?

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 4, 2002 - 06:11 pm
    Je ne parle pas l'Allemand. Allez Stop.

    Justin
    September 4, 2002 - 06:58 pm
    Robby: Vous nous voulez tutoyer?

    MmeW
    September 4, 2002 - 07:22 pm
    Elo•se, I think Robby's right. To the best of my recollection, when a verb ends in -yer, the y changes to i when followed by a silent e: J'essaie, tu essaies, il essaie, nous essayons, vous essayez, ils essaient.

    Ginny, on p.14 Flaminia says, "Giving up after such a long trip, such a road...It's crazy! Have they forgotten that those who have left for this holy war will have all their sins forgiven if they die on the way? We are going to help deliver the holy tomb. Those who don't fight with the sword will fight with prayer. Nothing must discourage us."

    Justin
    September 4, 2002 - 09:21 pm
    I must have misread Eloise's correction of Robby's comment. Robby wrote "Je essaye de me ratraper". Eloise wrote "J'essaye de me ratraper." Je was contracted to read J'. Not so?

    MmeW
    September 4, 2002 - 11:14 pm
    Sorry, Justin, Robby first wrote: J'essaie de "catch up." It was that one that I was looking at, and THAT J'essaie was right, not j'essaye (or je essaye).

    Justin
    September 4, 2002 - 11:27 pm
    Is J'essaye not the first person singular present indicative form of essayer? I know Canadian French is different but can it be off so much that the form of the verb changes from French-French. I wish I were not so rusty.

    Justin
    September 4, 2002 - 11:55 pm
    Garin's children are well educated. Pere Ascelin who is representative of the Bishop of Chartres, is brother-in-law to Garin. He has taught the children to read and to write and to understand latin. It was a rare thing in the middle ages for people, including the nobility, to read and write latin. That was the language of the church and the skills of a churchman. The monks held in monesteries the available codexes or codices and scrolls. They were the writers, the scribes of the period. A saxon language was spoken as was middle French among the common people.Ginny should be able to tell us about the use of latin at this time- 1097.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 5, 2002 - 12:38 am
    MmeW - I am so glad you still remember grammar. From now on, I will refrain from teaching French, Ouf! what a relief. Justin grammar is the same in all the francophonie, just like English is in the anglophone countries.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 5, 2002 - 03:55 am
    Je realize que tout le monde ici est plus loin dans le livre que moi mais en ce moment, je suis interese dan la route et j'ai cherche Brindisi sur la carte. Je ne savais pas que Brindisi etait si pret de la Grece. Je sais maintenant pourquoi les croises ont alle en Italie.

    Voici est UNE CARTE qui montre Brindisi.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 5, 2002 - 04:08 am
    Pourquoi "bouche close" et pas "bouche fermee?"

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 5, 2002 - 05:43 am
    Robby, c'est une belle carte de l'Italie merci. Bouche close est plus joli que bouche fermee c'est tout. Il y a aussi bouche cousue.

    MmeW
    September 5, 2002 - 08:29 am
    Robby, I actually left from Brindisi for Greece on my Eurail pass back in the day.

    According to my Larousse, "bouche close" is a set phrase meaning: "sans dire un seul mot," perhaps a little more emphatic than "bouche ferme." Elo•se, after 25 years of teaching French I in high school, simple grammar has been drummed into my head (as well as the heads of many students, I hope). Just don't ask me about the l'imparfait du subjonctif!

    Someone earlier said that Garin was a noble, but nobles had titles. Garin would be considered a "bourgeois." My college history book indicates that the bourgeois were "surtout les gens de metier," which is why there are so many streets named after trades.

    I bring this up because it has always been my impression that many nobles could read and write Latin. Charlemagne knew how to read, though he had a little trouble with writing. And, of course, the first universities were conducted in Latin (thus, the Latin quarter). Am I wrong? Justin? Ginny?

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 5, 2002 - 09:48 am
    "C'etait aussi le pere Ascelin qui avait appris a lire et a ecrire a son neveu et a ses nieces."

    I always thought that teach was "enseigner" but I see that "apprendre" can be both learn and teach. I guess one has to determine the context which in this case causes it to mean "teach."

    Robby

    Justin
    September 5, 2002 - 11:05 am
    There are two verbs in this discussion of endings. "Essayer and Essuyer. The first person singular present indicative is as follows:

    Essayer: Essaye

    Essuyer: Essuie

    Justin
    September 5, 2002 - 12:06 pm
    The University of Paris did not get started until a century after the picnic on the beach at Brindisi. In 1175 or so Bernard of Clairveaux and Abelard were involved in the great Scholastic debate at Paris- a big latin affair. Schools of higher learning, when they appeared, were taught in latin because they were primarily sponsored by the church.It was the nobility who sent their sons to the Cathedral schools.

    But here we are in 1097 when the common folk as well as the craftsmen were illiterate. The nobility was also largely illiterate. They spoke middle French, these Normans. Only churchmen and very few nobles spoke latin. Much later, because of the cathedral schools, latin was adopted by educated nobles but by no means can we assume that the nobility spoke latin as a general practice. Ginny, are you aware of any more significant use of latin in this period?

    Perhaps,it is necessary, to note that the parcheminier was a master craftsman and not a member of the nobility? This was the period of three estates- the churchmen, the nobility, and everyone else. "Everyone else" was rank ordered, largely, by function with master craftsmen at the top of the pecking order. Much, much, later, the guild of masters contributed to the start of the University of Paris. Sorbonne was a major contributor.

    Justin
    September 5, 2002 - 12:13 pm
    Robby; You raise a good question. Where is everyone at the moment? I am reading at the bottom of page 20 where we learn that Pere Ascelin has taught latin to the children of Garin.

    Justin
    September 5, 2002 - 03:17 pm
    Robby: J'applaudi votre effort pour ecrire en francais et maintenant j'essaye vous accompagner.

    MmeW
    September 5, 2002 - 07:41 pm
    At the risk of sounding really cantankerous, I must insist: all the verbs that end in -yer are conjugated the same: J'essaie, J'essuie, j'envoie, je balaie, j'emploie, je nettoie, etc. And because the e following the i is mute in the future tense, the same is true of the future: j'essaierai, j'essuierai, etc.

    Justin, I will yield to you in all matters historical, but in French (unless I am not sure, which I will readily admit) I will not.

    Are we going to get on with this book, by the way? I'm on p. 20 simply because I don't want to read ahead (I'll forget it?that's why I'm so "nulle" in history), but I may well forget the first six pages if we procede at this pace.

    Justin
    September 5, 2002 - 10:01 pm
    MmeW: I can see that I am offending you and I don't wish to do that. Don't be angry with me. I, generally, rely on Chris Kendris's 501 french verbs. "Essayer" seems to be the only exception to the rule you describe. If Kendris is a flawed reference let's be aware of it early.

    If you wish to move faster, let's do so. I am reading p 23 at the moment and will speed up if you wish.

    MmeW
    September 6, 2002 - 12:37 am
    Well, Justin, do I feel silly. I don't know Chris Kendris, but according to Grevisse and Larousse, the y may be retained in the conjugation of -ayer verbs. Thus we are both right. That'll teach me to rely on my ABC de Grammaire Franaise and years of teaching high school French, where I'm sure the textbooks decided it was just easier to teach a single rule for -yer verbs. I should have checked further when you were so insistent.

    I certainly owe you and especially Elo•se an apology. (though j'essaye still looks goofy to me)

    I'll be gone for a few days and will probably read to the end of the first chapter. See ya'll later after my face stops being red!

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 6, 2002 - 01:45 am
    Je suis du mme avis au sujet de continuer avec Les P.

    Je crois sincrement que tous ici connaissent assez le franais pour commenter en franais et s'ils desirent se faire corriger, il faudrait le faire par courriel (email). Si la discussion se limite ˆ la grammaire ou ˆ l'orthographe, le but de la discussion ne sera pas atteint, qui est de lire un livre en franais et de discuter du contenu du livre soit en franais ou en anglais. Nous avons tous nos faiblesses et nos forces, il faut miser sur les forces et comme a nous en profiteront tous.

    Let's have fun with the book.

    Elo•se

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 6, 2002 - 03:34 am
    Moi, aussi, je suis sur page 20. Il y a des douzaines de mots que je ne connais pas mais je continue de les chercher dans le dictionnaire. Comme vous avez dit avant, Eloise, meme si on ne connait pas tous les mots, on peut comprendre l'histoire.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 6, 2002 - 04:12 am
    Je ne pouvais pas trouver "besace" dans mon dictionnaire.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 6, 2002 - 04:18 am
    Je commence a realiser qu'il y avait des soldats dans le croises mais il y avait meme plus de personnes ordinaires. Quand j'ai etudie cela a l'ecole, j'ai imaginer simplement des soldats.

    Soyez patients avec moi regardant les marques acute, etc. Peut-etre dans une semaine je commencerai cela. J'ai des autres choses a faire.

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 6, 2002 - 05:50 am
    Besace, mon Larousse dit "long sac s'ouvrant en son milieu et dont les extremites forment des poches". Mais ma mre s'en servait pour designer un sac dissimule sous les vtements des religieuses qui nous enseignaient ˆ l'ecole. On ne l'entend plus aujourd'hui.

    Roslyn Stempel
    September 6, 2002 - 07:02 am
    Je vous remercie mille fois pour vos mots en No,238. Ce sont mes pensees exactes mais je n'osais pas les dire. A bas la grammaire! Faisons marcher l'histoire!Employons la contexte pour mieux comprendre et tout apportera beaucoup de plaisir.

    Ros

    Ginny
    September 6, 2002 - 08:55 am
    Thank you, Mme, for clearing up this point for me:



    Have they forgotten that those who have left for this holy war will have all their sins forgiven if they die on the way?


    So even if they DIE their sins are forgiven? So either way it's win win if you keep on? Thank you for that.




    Thank ALL of you for your wonderful background information, we have such knowledgeable people here, it's a pleasure to just come in and read your submissions, can't keep up with getting all the wonderful entries into the heading, but we will.




    Speaking of the heading?

    AT present we are discussing through page 18, which is the first 6 pages of the book, waiting for Robby to catch up. You may, of course, read forward or complete the book if you like, we are still trying to establish where we are now page wise and how fast we can go.

    We ask your patience till we are all caught up, meanwhile there ARE some questions in the heading not yet addressed, on the first six pages, I have a passage here I can't seem to make sense of, and nobody has commented on the crosses CARVED into the skin, is that what it says?

    Robby could you advise where you are vis a vis page 18?

    I will put a schedule in the heading for the matter being DISCUSSED (not how far you all have personally read) as soon as I hear from everybody?

    Meanwhile (I apologize for the lack of accents, just take your best stab here)

    What does this mean:

    For instance:

  • What does this mean, would you care to comment on this? Is this a drollerie or what?

    What is Crier de don Etat? On the top of page 17, referring to Herbert Chauffecire ?

    Also:

  • What is an ?episcopal lawyer??

    In a way, our waiting here has the same effect of plunging us in the story, n?est-ce pas? I feel as if I?m lined up too and I?m enjoying the experience.

    Does anybody want to translate that bit about the horses swinging from the hold?

    ginny
  • Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 6, 2002 - 12:23 pm
    The horses were now in the ship?s hold and the Episcopal Notary was explaining to Garin how they were kept from being tossed around and hurting themselves as the ship swayed back and forth on the water.

    You are not the first, my brother at making horses go across the sea. Generally, they don?t seem to fare none the worst for it. It is nevertheless true that those poor animals are to be pitied. They stay suspended for days over their litter by means of straps that hinder their movements and keep then half lifted. They oscillate with the tossing and reeling and find themselves near or far their feeder and their rack, depending on the rolling of the sea, struggle, hurt themselves sometimes, in spite of the straw that is inserted here and there where the straps and the linen rub on their fragile skins. What can you do Garin, they are used to run and gallop on the ground, not be tossed about on water.

    My guess is that the Episcopal Lawyer would have some authority and see that the operations run smoothly.

    "cirier de son etat" meaning that he was a "wax maker". Etat here meaning his profession.

    Elo•se

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 6, 2002 - 01:56 pm
    Ginny:--Comme j'ai dit, j'ai fini six pages et je suis sur page 20. Il y a des mots que je ne comprends pas mais peu a peu je les apprends. Je suis pret a continuer.

    Robby

    Justin
    September 6, 2002 - 03:13 pm
    Ginny: Peut etre, la teinte de la croix cousue sur les vetements et on a porte depuis huit mois a tache le peau ces noyes.

    Ginny
    September 6, 2002 - 03:21 pm
    Oh OK Robby, I'm sorry I missed your prior statement, so we....OK we'll discuss thru page 20 now and you all tell me when you're ready to move on?

    Eloise, thank you so much, my understanding of the horse is such that trying to suspend one for injury off the floor is a very tricky business and can cause death, wonder how many of them died, they'd have been better to have let them stood unless they had no stalls.

    Eloise, would you mind telling me how you got wax maker out of crier de son etat? Is that an idiom?

    Do any of you have any questions, or observations, not on the translation itself, but on the story you'd like to bring up?

    ginny

    Ginny
    September 6, 2002 - 03:27 pm
    That's a good logical explanation, Justin, don't you think it would have washed off? Maybe not after all that time. I wonder why the use of gravee, tho? and the exclamation mark: gravees dans leur chair, des marques representant la Croix!"

    I take it that the crowd thinks this is a manifestation? Why use gravee, I wonder?

    ginny

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 6, 2002 - 04:19 pm
    Ginny:--Je ne comprends pas des choses que vous dites. Vous parlez en anglais et mon anglais est tres pauvre. S'il vous plait, repetez encore ce que vous avez dit mais maintenant en francais.

    Robby

    Ginny
    September 6, 2002 - 04:45 pm
    Mais non, Monsieur Robby, pardonnez moi, si'l vous plait, mais je parlerai dans le langue de mon choix: Anglais. hahahaha

    ginny

    Justin
    September 6, 2002 - 05:14 pm
    Ginny: Graver means to impress and to imprint as well as to engrave. Par example; Cette idea se grava dans sa memoire.

    Justin
    September 6, 2002 - 05:30 pm
    Nous voyons sur page vingt-et-un gue des moines itinerant etaient l'hommes de "mail" de moyen ages.

    MmeW
    September 6, 2002 - 05:40 pm
    Je me demande si la croix brodee sur leurs vtements qu'ils portaient depuis huit mois n'avait pas laisse une empreinte, une marque, une trace sur la peau. Les pelerins voulaient que a soit quelquechose de surnaturel, venant de Dieu. Mais vraiment c'etait l'empreinte de la broderie, portee si longtemps. Thus "gravee"?etched in a way by being worn so long. Could that happen?

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 6, 2002 - 06:09 pm
    Ca depend. Si on prends un bain deux ou trois fois par semaine, cela ne resterait pas sur le peau.

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 6, 2002 - 06:24 pm
    Ginny, "Cirier de son etat"? It is not "crier" but it is "cirier". Those are two different words, the first is a verb meaning to yell, the other is an adjective meaning wax maker.

    All the horses, as I understood, were half suspended for the duration of the crossing to prevent them from hurting themselves hitting the side of their stalls or falling down when the ship swayed back and forth in the waves. It was an usual practice it seems, I am also shocked. But only some of the horses died from that, without that method, the swaying would have injured them even more, poor beasts.

    Justin about the cross, some were tatooed, but more likely they sewed them on their clothes, or wore them around their neck, I did not understand that as self mutilation and it was never mentioned again after that. I couldn't find "l'homme de mail de moyen age", my book does not have the same page number as yours. Itinerent monks must have meant that they went on their own without their congregation. I don't know. So many people were in religious orders then, even in not such a distant past. Large families sent their many children, 20 in a family sometimes in Quebec, away so they, at least, could be properly housed and fed.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    September 6, 2002 - 11:50 pm
    Eloise: It is my mutilation of the French language that is confusing you. What I thought I said was that these poor drowned folks had worn their dye stained and embroidered crosses so long ( for eight months) without bathing or changing clothes that the inprint of the cross appeared on their skin. I thought that is what "graver" meant.

    Justin
    September 6, 2002 - 11:59 pm
    Eloise: "L'homme de mail de Moyen Age" is another imaginative attempt to say in French what is so easy to say in English. Itinerant monks served as mailmen in the Middle Ages. I suppose I should have used "courrier" or "poste".

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 7, 2002 - 02:13 am
    Les moines savaient lire, ne travaillaient pas pour faire vivre une famille, et pouvaient se loger dans les monastres de place en place en transportant les messages et les directives du pape. Il n'est pas surprenant alors que toutes communications etaient de nature religieuse.

    Je ne peut pas conevoir que de porter les mme vtements durant 8 mois pourrait imprimer la croix sur la peau. Ce n'est pas logique. Il faudrait que cette croix brodee puisse ne jamais bouger de cet endroit lˆ pour laisser une empreinte et qui mme pourrait partir simplement ˆ l'eau. Je crois que la croix etait plut™t gravee dans la tte et dans le coeur que sur la peau.

    There is an important foreshadowing coming up as the they are on their way to Constantinople. Father Ascelin tells the family that he has friends there that he would like them to meet and possibly stay with. Watch out for this. Be prepared to be saddened by a tragedy that shakes the Garin family.

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    September 7, 2002 - 05:01 am
    Eloise, this is beutiful! Je crois que la croix etait plut™t gravee dans la tte et dans le coeur que sur la peau.

    Thank you for the transkation of Cirier de son etat" Sorry I misspelled it above.

    Here might be a warning to those reading, I was using the Larousse Compact in paperback, and cirier is not in it. So when I saw your translantion (MANY THANKS) I pulled out my 70 year old Gasc's, which was my fathers, and there it was: wax chandler.de son indicates profession quand vous avez dit! hahahahaah YOU are as good as a dictionary, many thanks!

    So I would say to those who have a problem translating, perhaps your dictionary is not quite up to par (may be too condensed, you may need one more unabridged?)

    And so with the two from now on I think I will do better, many thanks.




    Ou Secours!

    It appears we all don't have the same editions or pages. It's important that we all be on the same page, so we can assign pages to cover? Please look in your own book to the bottom of page 20 and write here the last sentence on YOUR page 20, je vous en pris?



    Here is mine:

    Qu'elle nous rende Jerusalem, notre Jerusalem....."

    What's yours?





    Additionally, on the sugbject of gravee, Gasc says this:

    to engrave, to grave, to trace, to cut out, to carve, to impress, to imprint; to engrave, to etch, to sink , to emboss.


    I think if people in 2002 can see the saints in cabbages and on the sides of mountains, it's easy to understand, especially in a crowd already excited and at a religious pitch, to see on the skin of those drowned (for whatever physical cause) the sign of the Cross, as a manifestation!!! and proof that they died not in vain, to spread the extited rumor.

    I'm going to see how far ahead all of you are, and catch up, perhaps, or go ahead, depending, many thanks, Eloise for that forewhadowing.

    Did you all know it's possible now to make circuits of Europe staying in old monasteries, etc? It's supposedly quite nice and adds quite a bit to the trip, if you do, I never have, have any of you?

    Garin does not have horses, does he?

    PS: Justin thank you very much for the historical background of the nobles, etc., and what they spoke, tell us this?

    This is the year 1000, right? OK depending on the latest scholarship, IS this the "Dark Ages," or is it not? Quand j'etais en universite, the Dark Ages were "no such thing," then they came back before I finished my teaching career, are they gone again? What's the latest scholarship regarding "The Dark Ages?" and does THIS time period fit in or not?

    ginny

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 7, 2002 - 05:21 am
    La derniere ligne sur Page 20 dans mon livre est:--"nieces et c'etait grace a lui s'ils savaient le latin."

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 7, 2002 - 07:52 am
    Ginny - my page 20 reads like yours above; "Quelle nous rende Jerusalem, notre Jerosalem."

    Robby's last page "c'etait gr‰ce ˆ lui s'ils savaient le latin" is the last line on page 17 of my book.

    So we can say that whenever one quotes from a page, they could mention if it is the paperback edition or the hard cover.

    Goodness, as good as a dictionary, nono. I too have to consult the Larousse for French, Becherelle for conjugaisons, Webster for English, Collins French/English almost on a daily basis and I forgot the Thesaurus.

    Garin has one favorite horse which came with them all the way from home in Chartres and it is now in the hold of the ship.

    I read the whole book already and I don't want to reveal too much ahead and break the suspense.

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    September 7, 2002 - 08:45 am
    Super, Eloise, and Robby, thank you, what about the rest of you, so I feel pretty good then that my page 18, one of my six sit down pages, is up to snuff and I get to wait for somebody else again, let's all read to the lines:

    "Quelle nous rende Jerusalem, notre Jerosalem."


    Where are the rest of you? Good, I'm swamped elsewhere it will give me a breather and I think on Tuesday I'll sit down and do 6 more of my pages, just to keep UP.

    ginny

    Roslyn Stempel
    September 7, 2002 - 08:53 am
    Je voudrais savoir si quelqu'un a une edition du livre qui contient les mots "texte integrale" au premier page, voulant dire que c'est la texte entiere sans couper rien..Le mien n'en a pas et aussi contient en beaucoup de pages les trois petit points {...} qui marquent un omission. Ainsi, peut=etre ce n'est pas le livre entiere? Je vous remercierai pour un reponse de quelqu'un.

    Ros

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 7, 2002 - 09:38 am
    Roslyn - dans mon edition Franois Bourin/Lacombe, il y a 446 pages mais je ne vois pas Texte Integral inscrit en premire page. Toutefois, je suis certaine que c'est le texte integral.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 7, 2002 - 10:12 am
    J'ai un livre (paperback) et je ne vois pas les mots "texte integrale."

    Robby

    Ginny
    September 7, 2002 - 10:13 am
    Ros, I not only do not have any "..." (I also do not see anything about abridgement, I have (I just remembered, hahaha, the same book as Eloise).

    By the way, does everybody have the poem by G Bernanos in the begining on the dedication page?



    Qui n'a pas vu la route de l'aube, entre ses deux rangees d'arbres, toute fraiche, toute vivante, ne said pas ce que c'est que l'esperance.


    Neat, huh? J'espere dans la semaine prochaine je pouverai (how do I say I will be able???!!!??? ) faire l'accents grave, acute et les autres.

    I need a good French grammar, any recommendations? I have forgotten how to conjugate pouvoir.

    PLEASE any of you feel free to correct my French! I'm not hung up on it at all? Correct my Latin and you're a dead man, but my Francais, OUI!

    ginny

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 7, 2002 - 10:18 am
    Oui, j'ai la poeme.

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 7, 2002 - 11:34 am
    entre des deux rangees d'arbres Entre SES deux rangees d'arbres. Ginny I can see that you are a very fast reader, like me and you lightly skim over the printed words. I was told to read aloud and breathe in every three or four words to slow down. I use the Becherelle, a dictionary of all 12,000 French verbs and how to conjugate them. It is a rather small book easier to consult than the Grevisse.

    Ginny
    September 7, 2002 - 02:55 pm
    Merci, Eloise, no, that was a typo, the d and s being next to each other on my keyboard, I'm a worse typist than French reader. haaahaah I checked it over mais helas, am having a bit of a problem seeing the screen, not to worry, just correct away, how about pouverai, was that correct?

    ginny

    Justin
    September 7, 2002 - 03:03 pm
    J'ai aussi le poeme. Page 18 bottom dit" nous n'aurions pas ˆ notre suffisance,

    Justin
    September 7, 2002 - 03:33 pm
    Here are a few thoughts on the "Dark Ages". Dating of the Dark Ages is loose. The time period we are dealing with, 1097, is not in the dark ages,in my judgement. The birth of Abelard in 1079 is, for me, the beginning of the twelth century renaisance. What does the term "Dark Ages" mean? It is a time when learning stopped. In the mid-fifth century, the Romans lost to the Germans in the same way the British of a later time period lost to the American colonists at Lexington and Concord- guerilla warfare. From that time on Byzantine influence diminished in Europe. Great central governments were overrun by invaders and for the next five hundred years people were more concerned with absorbing or fighting off the invaders. There was little time for learning so it retreated into the monasteries and there it remained until Abelard and the Scholastics came along. There were exceptions during this period that's why scholars vary in their views. In Senior net we have just finished Beowolf which was retained because it entered a monastery during the "Dark Ages".

    Ginny
    September 7, 2002 - 03:34 pm
    Wow, OK Justin, thank you very much for that one it's 3/4th of the way down my page 19, how on earth are we going to be able to arrange this thing? Everybody has different paginations, we can't do it by pages, that's for sure!

    The first chapter is too long, how do you all suggest we do a schedule so we can at least all be talking about le meme chose?

    ginny

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 7, 2002 - 03:57 pm
    I find schedules hard to commit myself to. I like to read the postings of others, try to stay alongside them as best I can, and make appropriate remarks based upon where most of the people are.

    I'm an easy-going guy! (That's a song, isn't it?)

    Robby

    Ginny
    September 7, 2002 - 04:12 pm
    Justin, thank you for that wonderful update on the "Dark Ages," I wondered what the recent scholarship thought, I appreciate that.

    I'm glad to hear you were in the Beowulf discussion, the most recent entry in our Great Books series here in the Books & Literature section. Have you noticed the very fine Reader's Guide made from that discussion? Look up on the very top of the page and see the green tab called Courses, scroll down in it and you will see Reader's Guides, it will then be easy to see the very fine one for Beowulf, and when this discussion is over there will be one for Les Peregrines, too, with all of YOU quoted for the backgrounds and any other stuff you'd care to give us here, some day it may be of great use to some other adventurer wanting to read a book in French!

    These Reader's Guides were the brainstorm of Marcie Schwarz,, who didn't want to see so much good work go unseen again, so they might help others, there's no telling where we'll go with them, sorry for this seque, I suppose (Robby we were posting toether!! IS that a song? hahahaha ) we need now to go by EVENTS in the book and not pages?

    (I've often thought of the Dark Ages and what it must have been like, imagine the collapse of "civilization," as they knew it, this is going to be an education in more than one way.

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 7, 2002 - 06:03 pm
    Justin - This must be the Abelard who loved Helo•se then, Yes?

    "It is a time when learning stopped." I don't understand this, could you explain it please.

    Ginny - I find it hard to discuss a book and not have a quote personally. But on the other hand, is it possible to do that? Robby could give us an idea.

    Elo•se

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 8, 2002 - 04:02 am
    Eloise:--I can only speak for myself but in the forums for which I was DL -- eg Democracy in America and Our Oriental Heritage -- I took an informal approach and had no objection to personal quotes or any other remarks which seemed to be away from the book so long as it was related to the theme of the forum. In fact, in my opinion, such "personal" remarks help to enrich the discussion rather than it being just a "dry" book review.

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 8, 2002 - 05:08 am
    Robby, you quoted Durant frequently and we followed on that quote because a lot of people didn't have the book.

    I like to be informed about historical facts that Justin provides and it is good because we are plunged in Medieval times and it is interesting to learn.

    Ginny, yes that is a good idea to go by events instead of pages, I think it makes more sense.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 8, 2002 - 05:21 am
    I, also, like the historical facts that Justin provides and that is part of following the theme. Going by events rather than by pages makes sense to me, too.

    I'm going to try to read a couple of more pages today.

    Robby

    Roslyn Stempel
    September 8, 2002 - 08:50 am
    After the fashion of the woman who started out to dust the keys of her grand piano and, one thing leading to another, ended up with the entire piano disassembled and scattered over the living room floor, I found myself wandering from a brief introduction to ballad prosody into an irresistible series of articles from the (believe it or not) Society for Creative Anachronism which provided an astonishing chronicle of trade in the Middle Ages (from the 6th or 7th century through the end of the Crusades), Not only did trade flourish worldwide in that period, but learning and various other appurtenances of culture persisted. Traders from all over the known globe traveled back and forth and peddled their wares and practiced their skills and some became rich and powerful. One of the articles included an unbelievable list of the crafts and professions practiced by workers. Unfortunately I couldn't locate "cirier" among them, and the cross-references to "ship's chandler" were fruitless, though I understand perfectly well what a chandler did. There was also a lot about how after the depredations of the invading Muslims the larger towns disintegrated into small settlements either within the walls of manors and monasteries or just outside them (presumably for safety).So perhaps we need to be aware that despite the suppression of literacy and culture, after which the monks which took refuge in the monasteries (as we learned a few years back when L. J. Klein of blessed memory led us in Thomas Cahill's"How the Irish Saved Civilization") there was still an active and flourishing world. This leads one to the speculation of the extent to which the Crusades were politically motivated by intelligent and foresighted popes who used the people's religious devotion to set them on the road to Jerusalem.I notice that Burin includes numerous hints about this aspect of the 11th century world, though of course she is concentrating in her "Roman de savon" on the passions and sins that lurk within the throbbing hearts of what must have been the most glamorous and cultured maidens ever to don their bliouds and ceintures and sandales and voiles de toile and set forth on the rocky road to the Sainte Sepulchre.

    I am also astonished that Burin encourages us to believe that Brunissen and her sisters remained daisy-fresh and squeaky-clean in the midst of the absence of laundry facilities and the dirt and squalor of their surroundings. No fleas, no filth contaminated their daintiness. (The novelist Connie Willis has painted a more honest picture of daily life of the period in her well-researched time-travel novels.)

    I didn't make notes as I read so if anyone finds I have perpetrated the most egregious howlers I'll be grateful to stand corrected.

    Ros

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 8, 2002 - 01:46 pm
    Roslyn I was wondering too how the girls were able to stay squeaky clean without 'Tide'. I am putting myself in the author's place, would I want to read about filthy ugly girls? No, she studies ber buyer's market and writes a novel keeping that in mind. Her books are as close to historical facts as possible while being romantic and sometimes one thing is sacrificed in favor of the other.

    I am certain that learning continued, and where survival skills became primordial a civilization was wiped out, another one was born. Learning never ends but the word has a different meaning for different people.

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 8, 2002 - 02:27 pm
    HERE you will find the first love letter from Helo•se to Abelard. At that time, Abelard had been punished for his sin of breaking his chastity vows and they were apart in captivity. He had been the teacher of 15 yr old Heloise and they fell in love.

    We can appreciate the level of writing of some people, not of noble lineage, I think, and when I read Les P. their manner of speaking is not that far removed from history.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    September 8, 2002 - 05:38 pm
    The concept as well as the timing of the "Dark Ages" is quite loose among scholars. However, in my judgement, we,in 1097, are not in the "Dark Ages". We are in a period I like to call proto-renaisance. It is the beginning of a period in which learning advanced slowly but surely through the next five centuries until the "Age of Enlightenment" was reached.

    What are the "Dark Ages". They are a period of political instability caused by a breakdown of established authority in the world. The authority of Rome diminished and with it went Byzantine influence. The transfer of Helenism to western Europe gradually came to an end. Did this happen over-night? No. It happened slowly. And there are periods in the next five hundred years in which political stability returned.

    Immediately after the defeat of Rome by the Germans in the mid-fifth century, Justinian assumed power in Ravenna and raised Byzantine culture to a pinacle. Later, in the late eighth century Charlemagne brought a sense of central control to Europe from Aachan in Germany. There were periods of stability but in the main instability reigned in Europe.

    Foreign invasion and subsequent integration forced the people to defend themselves with local authority.The Huns and the Ostrogoths invaded Italy and sacked Rome. The Saxons and Danes invaded Britain. The Moslems invaded Spain and the Cid was active. Pope Leo defended against the Moslems, Charles Martel was busy with the Moslems. The Visigoths were in Burgundy. The Moslems conquered Sicily. The Swedes attacked Russia. The Persians moved on Jerusalem and sacked it.

    There was so much foreign invasion in this period that people outside monasteries had little time for cultural development. One's primary concern was protection and survival. Latin and Greek fell into disuse in western Europe. Vernacular languages rose in importance. These are some of the characteristics of the "Dark Ages".

    Did learning die? No. It lay dormant for a few centuries on a back burner. When did the "Dark Ages" end? I pick the birth of Abelard in 1079 because it represents the return of learning in a major way. The Universities would grow out of the controversies of the Scholastics in Paris. Yes,Eloise, this is the very same Abelard who messed with Heloise's affections. Is she your namesake?

    Justin
    September 8, 2002 - 05:54 pm
    Ros: Very nice to have you in here. It seems to me Boulieu's Dictionery of Medieval Crafts may define wax-makers. I might have a copy on my shelves somewhere. I will look.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 8, 2002 - 06:53 pm
    I guess so Justin, it was my grand mother's name but she died young and it is very unlikely anyone at the time of her birth had read Abelard and Helo•se, but I could be wrong.

    Thank you for your very interesting post about the Dark Ages.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 9, 2002 - 05:36 am
    Quelques mots inusites sur dernire page du premier chapitre. Bai de Norgge Garin's horse. Busines trumpets. P‰moison, to faint.

    "this is the very same Abelard who messed with Heloise's affections." and he was castrated for this as his punishment. No wonder I never heard about this when I was a child. Good thing he still continued his brilliant career as a philosopher.

    Elo•se

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 9, 2002 - 08:09 am
    "Ils auraient ensuite a gagner Constantinople ou etait fixe le grand rendez-vous des differentes armees de Dieu."

    Qui a fixe cela? Qui est arrive a Constantinople avant les croises?

    Robby

    mssuzy
    September 9, 2002 - 12:31 pm
    Bonjour Eloise, je viens de recevoir le livre aujourd'hui, merci, je vous reglerai ca cette semaine. A quelle page en etes-vous? J'en ai deja lu 25, c'est en effet tres interessant et j'aime beaucoup cette periode. A bientot.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 9, 2002 - 01:07 pm
    Mssuzy - Je suis contente qu'une franaise vienne se joindre ˆ nous. Si vous reculez dans les messages precdants vous verrez comment a se passe. Nous commenons et nous en sommes encore au premier chapitre. Il y a tellement de choses ˆ apprendre sur cette periode de l'histoire et Les P nous en donnent l'occasion.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 9, 2002 - 05:43 pm
    J'ai dit que j'ai lu jusqu'au page 20 dans le livre du papier. C'est vrai et ce n'est pas vrai. Tous les deux jours je retourne au commencement de l'histoire pour le lire encore pour meme le troisieme et quatrieme fois. Comme ca peu a peu je commence a reconnaitre les mots sans dictionnaire. Je le lis a haute voix.

    Robby

    Justin
    September 9, 2002 - 06:06 pm
    Robby: your question about the great rendezvous at Constantinople deserves a fair response. There were four armies gathered before Constantinople by May, 1097. Normans from Italy under Bohemond, those from provencal under Raymond, an army under Godfrey, and the people we are following under the Duke of Normandy and the Count du Blois.

    Godfrey arrived in 1096.Bohemond arrived around Easter 1097. We know the Duke of Normandy was still on the beach at Brindisi at Easter 1097. What did Godfrey do during his wait? He retook Anatolia for Alexius Comnenus, the Greek King of Constantinople. Alexius, you will recall, is the guy who asked Urban ll for help in the first place. He wanted to retake his lost lands from the Seljuk Turks. He had limited interest in Jerusalem and the holy sites. He was Greek not Latin.

    Justin
    September 9, 2002 - 10:09 pm
    In May of 1097 there were four armies at Constantinople. The preceding year, Peter The Hermit, and some one from Germany, put together about 12,000 people and a dozen knights and set off for Constantinople. On the way they held a pogrum for Jews in Germany and butchered great numbers of people. When they arrived in Anatolia, Alexius, The Greek King of Constantinople, saw that they were not what he had asked Urban to supply and tried to ship them back. Instead these banded rabble attacked the City of Nicea. Skilled archers came out of the city and annihilated them. This was the advance guard of the first Crusade.

    Justin
    September 9, 2002 - 10:41 pm
    What were the causes of the First Crusade?

    1. The Byzantines had begun to lose power after battling to hold back the hordes from the steppes, the Huns, the Slavs, The Visigoths etc. Now ,from 1050 on, the Turks were on the march in Asia. The King of Constantinople, Alexius Comneni had been resisting but his army was worn out. He needed reinforcement. He asked the latin Pope to send him reinforcemnts. He was desperate.

    2. Pope Urban ll, responded favorably in the Synod of Clermont.The barons of western Europe needed occupation away from the papacy. A crusade would redirect their attentions away from the vatican. The Pope may also have seen a chance to reconnect the Latin church to the Greek church. So he went for the idea when other Popes had passed up the opportunity.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 10, 2002 - 05:09 am
    In those days, you could sell land, borrow money and leave the land in guarantee as we see in this passage on my page 30:

    Savez-vous que, gr‰ce ˆ la garantie de l'Eglise, le duc de Normandie a touche un prt de dix mille marcs d'argent du nouveau roi d'Angleterre, ˆ condition de lui laisser son duche en gage durant cinq ans! Voilˆ comment nos seigneurs livrent leurs terres aprs les avoir laissees deperir!

    Not only could the land be sold, but everything on it also and that way parcels of a country could suddenly change hands. Imagine the chaos that this would create and how could they govern such fragments of lands within a geographic area.

    Is that what it means?

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    September 10, 2002 - 09:13 am
    I don't know, Eloise, what a super point, what do the rest of you think?

    Je suis delsole that I have been absent here, I?ve been having a very spirited time of it with American Express for the last few days as apparently some hacker got my credit card number off the internet and has gone wild with it, just wild, you have no idea, airline tickets, you name it, the calls keep coming even tho the card has been cancelled and a new one issued.

    FIREWALL is apparently what?s wanted which I am now installing, and a secure site (which I always use) when making credit card transactions over the internet.

    Whew.

    What a delight hahahaah to return to the year 1097! Hahahaa Loved all your thoughts on the bathing and the historical background, just wonderful.

    Welcome, Mssuzzy, !!! We are delighted to have you here.

    If you all look up in the heading you will see TWO names for Discussion Leaders for this discussion, we?re very proud this morning to announce that our Eloise, already a SN Discussion Leader, has agreed to co helm this thing and she and I are getting ourselves and our schedule straight even as we speak.

    Mssuzzy, if your page 20 ends in the words Qu?elle nous rende Jerusalem, notre, Jerusalem, that?s where are at this very moment but we?re wishing now to move on, if everybody is ready, and since there are no subchapter headings or demarcations, we?ll have to pick an event, stay tuned as we get organized encore, in looking ahead I see a lot of great stuff coming up.

    Thank you, Voyagers in this New and Exciting Venture, for your patience, it WILL be rewarded, watch this space for future details, meanwhile Eloise had a super question in her post above!

    ginny

    mssuzy
    September 10, 2002 - 02:54 pm
    Bonjour a tous. Do we speak English or French on this site? I got the book yesterday and have already devoured 146 pages. That tells you if I like it or not. Le Moyen-Age est l'une de mes epoques preferees, although I both like and detest it. How insensitive and selfish of the Pope - and others - to send all these poor people off on this monstruous equipee! Something like what's happening in reverse with the "martyrs" of Islam? One thing that irks me in the book, although it is very well written, is the language J. Bourin uses. I am 100% certain that these people, the peasants, did not speak in this fancy language. They most likely used a local patois, which is never mentioned. I also don't see anywhere mention of the feudal system, which practically enslaved them. I admire all of you who are not native speakers, this book is using a lot of terms which only exist in the dictionary. I spent the day in Constantinople, and am now at the races, got to go see who is winning. Justin, how come you know so much about those infamous Crusades?

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 10, 2002 - 03:44 pm
    MsSuzy - Oui c'est a, il faut s'exprimer, n'ayez pas peur, allez-y. Merci de nous donner votre opinion sur le language que l'auteur utilise.

    Don't be surprised at what Justin knows. This is just a drop in the bucket. I learned a lot from him in Story of Civilization.

    Je crois que tous ici savent assez le franais pour comprendre ce que nous ecrivons, et ils pourront le pratiquer en mme temps. La discussion ici n'est pas une classe de franais, mais une discussion sur un livre ecrit en franais, c'est different.

    Nous avons lu jusqu'ˆ la page 28 en ce moment pour permettre ˆ tous de bien absorber le texte et les participants francophones se doivent d'tre patients envers ceux qui savent moins le franais pour leur permettre de bien absorber le texte.

    Vous avez raison, je suis certaine aussi que le franais du 11 ime sicle etait tout-ˆ-fait different. Mais si Bourin avait ecrit dans ce franais-lˆ, elle n'aurait pas vendu un seul livre.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    September 10, 2002 - 08:26 pm
    The land barons who left their holdings in pledge expected to return from a crusade much enriched. Alexius l paid the early crusaders large sums to bring Anatolia back to his suzerainty. Alexius was also a little concerned that the crusaders might take places like Antioch, Tyre etc. and keep them. He was also alarmed that the Crusaders might take Constantinople for their own use. So he paid them large sums to do what he wanted them to do. Further, Crusaders were paid in booty. After the citizens of a town were tortured and crucified, their belongings were gathered and packed for the trip home. When the crusaders returned to western Europe their pockets were jingling.

    What about the serfs and the feudal system? Well, the serfs were allowed to go on crusade. When they returned they did not, in many cases, return to the old demesne. Their independence contributed to the break up of the feudal system and to the formation of towns. We learn some where in this first chapter that Brunissen has a boyfriend whom she had to leave behind. He was required to work the land for two sisters and a widowed mother. Without that encumbrance, he would certainly have followed along with Brunissen.

    Justin
    September 11, 2002 - 02:07 pm
    Ala•s, la jumeau de Landry, est se bousculait ˆ un homme barbu, ˆ l'entree de la passerelle. Elle nous dit ces qui faites commerce des plus fructeux en religues sont faux marcheurs de Dieu. Come Helne, la mere de Constantine qui trouve la croix verite en Jerusalem si quelqu'un dans ce livre trouve la Lance que perce le c™te du Christ mourant.

    Nous savons que Raymond d'Argiles ecriait de l'evenement memorable quand il returne ˆ Antioch.

    Note to Eloise and Mme. If you will help by correcting my French, I will continue to post in French. I find it is one thing to read French and another thing to write the language. The latter is more difficult.

    mssuzy
    September 11, 2002 - 03:15 pm
    Bonjour, you courageous readers of Les Peregrines. Justin, Anseau le Bel had 5 sisters, not 2, this is just something that "m'a saute aux yeux". And yes, it's always a lot more difficult to actually speak or write a language, that comes last, after listening and understanding. So you are on the right track. Back to the language: I agree that J. Bourin had to write this novel in French-French, as someone mentioned earlier, but all these Croises did not speak French, not even medieval French. Again, every region, every province, every village within each of the above, spoke its own patois which, believe me, had nothing to do with the official language as we know it. Patois is lost with the new generation, but older people in the villages still speak - I would understand the patois of my grandparents if I heard it again. I grew up bilingual, french and patois. And "medieval" French had run-in sentences, no punctuation; plus the vocabulary was very different from what we know now. This explains why all these people had one common language, latin, which is also why the "quartier latin" in Paris. The "educated" layer of society, namely the clergy, communicated in that language. But enough with that, I'm going back to Constantinople. Au revoir.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 11, 2002 - 04:14 pm
    Justin, I will send you an email and try to correct what you say and mean what you mean. But I think that yes, Ala•s is deploring the commerce being done on the Crusades.

    Mais en mme temps nous pouvons constater que les voleurs, les filles de joie, les faux marcheurs de Dieu, comme disait Ala•s, faisaient tout de mme partie de la cohorte des croises. Ils n'y etaient pas exclus et ils etaient tolere par les autorites locales.

    Comme je suis pratique, je me demande toujours comment des milliers de gens puissent tous marcher vers Jerusalem et dormir, manger, se battre, soigner les blesses, les malades, accoucher les bebes, rester raisonnablement propres et avoir un semblant de vie de famille. Mssuzy dirait peut-tre, tout a est cousu de fil blanc. Mais qu'importe, c'est une histoire passionnante tout de mme.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    September 11, 2002 - 06:45 pm
    C'est merveilleuse. Maintenant il y a trois qui savent le francais. Je ne surprend pas que vous savez des vernaculaire aussi, MsSuzy. Ces qui demeurent dans les province tres souvent parlent une patois. Languedoc, par example. Bienvenue, MsSuzy. Vous lisez avec vitesse. J'espair que vous n'ennuyez pas devenir avec nous.

    Hard to believe I wrote all that without an accent.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 11, 2002 - 06:47 pm
    Je serai ici demain. J'ai besoin de lire un peu plus.

    Robby

    Ginny
    September 12, 2002 - 05:01 am


    The dog?s tail speaks! Hahahaha

    Yes yes bringing up the rear, (or are YOU, Robby?) trying to catch up to you all, what fun to see you enjoying yourselves here! I have tons o questions today!

    Yes this is a fun discussion and it's also unique, and an extraordinary opportunity to offer this type of thing here, very exciting. And we are lucky to have so many of you here, who, as mssuzy says, read, comprehend and even try to speak in French, anyone else who is reading this is more than welcome, regardless of your fluency in French, we hope to make this a fun Pilgrimage , we have Eloise for those who can FLY thru the text and MOI for those who can't!

    As Mssuzzy said, Pioneeers All, for everybody, regardless of ability, it?s fun.




    That was interesteing, MsSuzzy on the patois, and the Medieval French, thank you!


    In trying to catch up I can?t help but compare myself to our Peregrines here: what happens, for instance, when, say, Berthe gets behind and can't keep up with our group? Do they slow down? Does the Comte de Blois stop HIS men when we can?t keep up? Does the entire party move on? I'm trying to ask if there's soet of a "wagon train" mentality or if it's everybdy for themselves? What speed are they moving at, anyway? A man on horseback can cover more than one on foot daily, who said earlier that they could do 20 miles a day? That?s a heck of a lot of walking speed, don?t you think? I?m not up on my US History, but what types of distances did they cover in a day?

    My comments today will cover through these lines


    Les couers de la chretiente s'etaient enflammes. Les difficultes innombrables, let peines, les separations and les maux a prevoir ne faisaient pas obstacle a l'embrasement irrepressible que l'appel d'Urbain II, veritable boute-feu, avait allume sure son passage. (page 25 in my book)


    This passage follows one equally florid in language, in which Bourin uses, some pretty turns of phrase, I can?t be sure if it?s simile, is it, Ros? But it?s wonderful, they?re all caught up as if in a fire. And we can see in the passage above (My Windows XP tells me it will install a French spelling correction and accents!! Joy Joy!! All I have to do is FIND the disk!) But am on my way out of town so will do that later.

    In the paragraph above Bourin seems to indicate that their enthusiasm carries the day, regardless of physical hardship, etc, and I guess I want to ask you if you think this is at all probable?

    In other words I?m asking:

  • Do you think we?re getting the real picture here of what it must have been like to go on one of these Crusades?

  • A somewhat sinister note into the story has been introduced by ?matou:? (does that mean what I think it means?) Herbert Chauffecire. I?ve been wondering all along at the wisdom or naivete of Garin, setting out for this long journey with so many desirable daughters so beautiful that heads turn when they pass? Would that really have happened? Wouldn?t Berthe have been the equivalent of 90 years old for the time?

  • Mssuzzy has introduced the idea of the feudal system, I am always confused as to when that began in France? I am struck today by Alberade, who is 31 years old but who has been a ?servant? of the Garin family since she was 12, did I understand that correctly?

  • Those of you fluent in French, does it seem to you that the author?s style is a bit different from the norm? The construction of the sentences, do they seem normal?

    Here are a few things not found in my own dictionary: beauceronne , and souffle ?tisons, what do they mean?

  • I note a good bit of reference to Clermont. I had a friend living in Clermont Ferand, I had no idea that Clermont played such an important part in early French history, what is the ?concile de Clermont??

  • It seems that Anseau le Bel, Brunissen?s fiance, did not make the trip as he was the sole support of his widowed mother, is that correct? Did his mother and sisters not then feel the same fervor of the others? Was a reason given for their not wanting to go along on this Pilgrimage? (I?m going to call it a pilgrimage, if they expect to receive salvation because they even set out, in my mind it?s a pilgrimage).

  • Were you struck by the reference to Alais as "la benjamine?" Isn't she a twin?

    I marvel at people who can set out for this type of journey with no apparent central organization or direction, do you see any?

    ginny
  • Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 12, 2002 - 06:54 am
    Ginny - I understand that Berthe although elderly by Medieval standards was still quite active and energetic like we would be around 50 yrs of age. It's just that because of medical advancement, we live way past that age. I don't get the impression that she is frail physically, but she has some sort of ailment that today would be operated on.

    My twins weighed 15 pounds altogether, (really) of course they were not born together, but one after the other OH! why am I explaining this? So Ala•s was born last. That is how I understand it.

    Un homme comme Herbert Chauffecire est aussi un 'matou' au Quebec

    Bourin's flowery litterary style in Les P. is very very different from what we read in Le Figaro for instance. It is a big challenge for non-native French speakers, but the rewards will be that much greater because it is a high level of French.

    Elo•se

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 12, 2002 - 07:33 am
    The jumeaux dans "Les Peregrines" ne sont pas identique(?)

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 12, 2002 - 08:01 am
    Si je comprends correctement, le pere Ascelin a conduit des negotiations a Rome entre les personnes qui etait pour le pape et les personnes qui etait contre le pape. Est-ce vrai, cela?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 12, 2002 - 08:13 am
    C'est evident que le pere Ascelin avait un bon personalite parce qu'il avait aussi en Constantinople fait(?) des amis importants.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 12, 2002 - 08:33 am
    La mere n'avait pas besoin des autres. Elle pouvait faire n'importe quoi. Si les autres, par exemple, n'ont pas prepare suffisament de nourriture, -- tant pis -- elle avait preparer un panier suffisament pour sa famille.

    Robby

    Roslyn Stempel
    September 12, 2002 - 08:45 am
    "Benjamine" veut dire la fille derniere-nee, ainsi Alais, et Landry,son jumeau, etait le dernier-ne, ou benjamin. Ginny, dans mon Robert francais-anglais je vois "boute-feu" tradui comme "firebrand," un mot commun et pas un metaphor. Quant a "matou,"je le trouve charmant et j'en ai gagne un image plus clair d'Herbert Chauffecire.

    Le style litteraire de Bourin? Si je parle honnetement, il me semble que c'est ecrit pour les jeunes.Peut-on me repondre au contraire avec exemplaires?

    Enfin j'ai trouve les mots "texte integral" imprimes en lettres tres petites sur le couvert du livre. Mais je ne peut pas trouver les phrases ecritess par Ginny et je ne sais pas ou vous autres vous trouvent dans l'histoire.

    Heloise, je regrette ne pouvoir point employer les accents. Veuillez corriger ma grammaire, je serais vraiment reconnaissante. (Couldn't remember that one, had to look it up on the English side.)

    Ros

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 12, 2002 - 09:39 am
    Roslyn - Nous en sommes encore au premier chapitre. Nous pouvons commenter sur n'importe quel sujet du livre, mais il est plus interessant de ne pas aller trop vite pour ne pas briser le suspense. Jusqu'ˆ la page 35 n'est pas trop demander il me semble. Au fait, c'est Elo•se, et non pas Helo•se, un 'H' est trs etranger ˆ la langue franaise et les anctres l'ont supprime en court de route.

    En effet, les hero•nes sont trs jeunes et c'est pour a peut-tre que le livre s'est vendu comme des petits pains chauds. Mais c'est romantique et pas trop difficile ˆ comprendre lorsqu'on est habitues ˆ ce style litteraire.

    Robby, vous avez tout compris, et bient™t vous n'aurez plus besoin qu'on vous corrige.

    Elo•se

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 12, 2002 - 11:54 am
    Ros:--

    Vous trouvez le style litteraire de Bourin "ecrit pour les jeunes." Hereusement, parce que dans la langue francais je suis "jeune."

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 12, 2002 - 12:09 pm
    Beauceronne, une femme qui habite la Beauce. Tison, morceau de bois en partie brule, encore en ignition. Souffle, comme nom commun est un plat soit sucre ou sale, fait avec des blanc d'oeufs.

    Lorsqu'il s'agit d'une ville, il faut dire 'ˆ' Constentinople, ˆ Paris, ˆ New York. Lorsqu'il s'agit d'un pays, si le pays est feminin, comme la France, la Belgique, il faut dire 'en' France, en Belgique. Si le pays est masculin, il faut dire 'aux' Etats Unis au Canada, au Mexique.

    Ce renseignement m'a ete fourni par mon amie "Parisian French" bachelire en litterature franaise et en espagnole. (remarquez le feminin de ces deux pays).

    Robby, vous battez tous les records de jeunesse eternelle.

    Elo•se

    mssuzy
    September 12, 2002 - 01:53 pm
    Bonjour a tous! Decidement, ca devient de plus en plus passionnant, et je ne parle pas seulement du livre! Eloise, moi aussi je suis pratique, c'est pourquoi ce livre est une histoire tres romancee, pas un livre d'histoire. Sur un fonds historique, l'auteur a "brode" beaucoup. En lisant, je traduis dans ma tete et c'est comme si je voyais un film; mais la, "ca ne colle pas" (it doesn't fit): these croises have been WALKING thousands of miles, through all these foreign countries, through rivers and mountains, etc, etc... and still look as prim and proper and clean and well rested as at a garden party. Realistic? NOOOOOOO! Justin: M'ennuyer, dites-vous? Oh, mais pas du tout! Je suis au comble de la joie; d'abord je lis un livre passionnant; et puis je lis vos commentaires a tous et (j'espere) peux apporter mes quelques connaissances, a sort of "inside" knowledge. Et puis, comme j'ai tendance a devorer le livre, vos commentaires et questions m'obligent a revenir sur mes pas et relire plus lentement. Parfait! Ginny: Vous avez tant de questions que j'ai du les imprimer pour pouvoir y repondre. 1.You will find soon enough what happens to Berthe. Or should I answer (tease, tease)? Since she is the matriarch, and has raised both Garin and his 4 children, they all stay with her - at first. Remember, these people left in small groups from each village; naturally, they stuck together. But as they advanced some fell sick, some went back, they all met new people, things changed. People changed. I believe each Seigneur more or less kept his own group around him since he was responsible for their welfare (feudal system); also, all seigneur that he was, he couldn't do much without his soldiers. They all needed one another. And there was a hierarchy of sorts within each group, from the seigneur on down; and up, as we know the prince, dukes, counts, barons, baronets, etc.

    2. Remember all these people were used to a lot of walking in their previous life, but it is totally unreasonable to have the strong young men and the grandmothers all walk at the same pace. No way!

    3. Again, their enthusiasm was necessary: to the novel, because if these people were bored or tired after 3 miles, the novel would be awfully short; to the politics of the time; to History in general. Again, from the feuldal system I seem to remember that "vassal" meant very little freedom. The seigneur decided who went to war and where. To all these people it was probably some sort of deliverance, a way to get away; and the best way to get them going was certainly not to mention everything they would have to endure, but the great recompense at the end. Isn't that how Caesar, Napoleon, others more recently, pushed masses of men all over the world? The Church was their escape, religion flourished (I should say catholicism)and Pope Urbain played the right keys at the right time.

    "matou" is the generic male French cat. You can guess the extended meaning. By the way "Chauffecire" means something like wax warmer. Is it only wax this character warmed?

    I don't know if Garin was only naive, but he was an artisan, obviously very well esteemed in his town. Living in Chartres, he couldn't have gone alone and abandon the children and mother, could he? So they all had to go, for the sake of the novel. Plus, this novel is suposed to show the role of women during that Crusade, so, of course, Garin's daughters had to be young and beautiful, didn't they?

    It seems perfectly normal to me that Alberade was placed in the service of the artisan and his family, this at what is now, here, considered an early age. Remember they lived in an agricultural society and children worked very early. That girl was a peasant's daughter, very lucky to have been placed in such a good family as this.

    Yes, the sentences seem normal to me, but again, this language (apart from the patois) is way too fancy for such "rustres" people. And family members would use "tu", not "vous", which was reserved to the higher classes.

    Beauceronne = girl from la Beauce, which is the Chartres region. Souffler = to blow. Tisons = ambers. Tisonnier is the tool they used to stir up ambers. Of course, do not mistake this for the marvel of culinary achievement such as cheese souffle, of course.

    Clermont-Ferrand is the capital of the province Auvergne, in the Massif Central. It is in the very old mountains, near a chain of ancient volcanoes. It is also 70 kms from my hometown of Vichy. Because it is so central, and accessible yet defendable, Urbain gathered the Council there in 1095 to inform them of his new idea. Notice he didn't plan to participate, only to send all these (bored) seigneurs and their hordes far away to defend Christendom from threatening Islam.

    Anseau le Bel is left behind - for now - because he is the sole male left in his family, and therefore the sole person able to do the physically "penible" work that could support his mother and 5 young sisters. There was no Social Security in those days, remember? Family members and village members had to help one another til the end.

    Benjamine = the youngest, whether she is a "jumelle" or not.

    Of course, there was organization. Urbain and the Lords had it all mapped out, and along the way, the Lords had their councils too. Were the pioneers here directed? They went west, that's it.

    Ouf! Assez, assez, assez! Hope I was helpful. When you grew up surrounded by XIIth century churches and cathedrals and monasteries and convents and "imbibee d'histoire", this is indeed tres passionnant. Bonsoir, je retourne a Constantinople.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 12, 2002 - 06:46 pm
    MsSuzy a dit: "Sur un fonds historique, l'auteur a "brode" beaucoup." On a historic background, the author embellished many things.

    And here I was thinking that perhaps 'Les vrais Croises' really brought their families along, but on the other hand, like Suzy says how could an army march at the slow pace of a sick old woman. Perhaps our in-house historian Justin could tell us more about that? Were 'les croises' only young fit men? or did the women, children and old people also go along? There is only so much that Bourin can say that is not historically accurate until one loses interest.

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    September 13, 2002 - 09:45 am
    What splendid splendid offerings from ALL of you today, I'm so impressed, Justin, ou est vous, Mme? Malryn?




    Eloise said among many wonderful things: ....that is not historically accurate until one loses interest. I'm not sure I agree, Eloise, I think it's fascinating to look hard at any book at what the author is trying to say and trying to convey, and not only does that not spoil my pleasure, it adds to it, you all have been magnificent in your remarks, just to mention a couple here:




    MsSuzzy, you are fabulous,

    Of course, there was organization. Urbain and the Lords had it all mapped out, and along the way, the Lords had their councils too. Were the pioneers here directed? They went west, that's it.


    Wonderful point, no the pioneers in the American West were individuals setting out for their own fortunes, their own homesteads, a new life, promised land, not to save their souls nor rescue the Tomb of Christ? But I, too , made that connection because apparently the Pilgrims here are pretty much on their own? Have to bring their own food? OR do they? How do they get their marching orders, they are NOT pioneers of the American West but they sure do seem like it, don't they?

    Wonderful point!

    I am enjoying BEING in their number, it's very effective writing!




    Anseau le Bel is left behind - for now - because he is the sole male left in his family, and therefore the sole person able to do the physically "penible" work that could support his mother and 5 young sisters. There was no Social Security in those days, remember? Family members and village members had to help one another til the end.

    Ah, oui, but here I believe I was trying to get at something else? (My own father was the support of his widowed mother and sisters, I understand cela) but note, please, that when this FLAME of religious fervor swept the town, ALL did not go? ALL did not feel it? Anseau le Bel's mother apparently did not feel it? Or not enough to take HER daughters and go? That was my point?.so I?m wondering here if it was then as it is now? If times are really and people are really so different?

    ??

    We read Timeline some time ago and the one point that Michael Crichton, who researched the thing exhaustively and tried to make it real (failing miserably in the process) but one point he made is that in those times we don?t realize how brutal and vicious existence really WAS and that the average age reached, I can?t recall, was it 36 being a ripe old age? (Note that Caesar lived to be in his 60?s but I digress).

    Rough times, rough people, and here OUR group is floating on idealism and joy, which I appreciate. It makes a nice contrast to what must have been the reality of what surrounded them? I love the tone, in other words.

    Were ALL the Pilgrims so moved? How about the wax maker tom cat?




    This is too long, see next?don?t want to miss out one of your points?..

    Ginny
    September 13, 2002 - 10:06 am
    The thing that made me question Anseau le Bel's mother in the first place was the kind of throw away line that it was not that he wasn't a good Christian (is that in all of your texts) but he had his mother to support?

    Are you all noticing that value judgments on the relative goodness of the individual's Christianity are being used? Not only by the author but by the characters themselves, I think we need to watch that?


    Eloise said: Bourin's flowery literary style in Les P. is very very different from what we read in Le Figaro for instance. It is a big challenge for non-native French speakers, but the rewards will be that much greater because it is a high level of French.

    I'm glad to hear that, I was interested in this because it's quite difficult for me but when I put it down and turn to something else, it flows like water, the sentence structure seems almost Latinate, am I the only one who thinks so?





    Eloise also said My twins weighed 15 pounds altogether, (really) of course they were not born together, but one after the other hahaha I misunderstood this when I first read it and thought you were saying they were 15 pounds EACH and spent all of yesterday trying to imagine such a thing hahahahaa, well 7 pound twins is a miracle!!!!!!!

    Robby asked The jumeaux dans "Les Peregrines" ne sont pas identique(?)

    Robby I understand from my dictionary these twins in the book are fraternal, is that the definition you all get too?

    Robby made a couple of good points about le pere Ascelin

    I?m confused AS to his role, IS he an emissary to Constantinople? I?m confused over him?

    Robby mentions: La mere n'avait pas besoin des autres. Elle pouvait faire n'importe quoi. Si les autres, par exemple, n'ont pas prepare suffisament de nourriture, -- tant pis -- elle avait preparer un panier suffisament pour sa famille.

    Is this just HER tho ? Like you carry food on a train just in case, I?m not seeing that she has been on one of these before, did they TELL them to bring provisions or not, so you?re seeing her, Robby, as self sufficient?

    Ros, if this IS pour les jeunes they are jeunes with a tremendous vocabulary, I have half a mind to scan in the English translation of this thing (if I can make one) and check the grade level of it, the VOCABULARY is extraordinary! But I do appreciate a critical glance as well at the text, it?s necessary to round out our experience here.

    But we are all young at heart, and I agree Robby is our jeune premier. If that?s right. I?m enjoying this immensely.




    Do any of you have any questions yourselves? Eloise has suggested a look at the personalities, will try to get up her quote on that today. I was struck by Flaminina saying that a rough trip would spoil her....what? That was interesting, I thought!




    Mais c'est romantique et pas trop difficile ˆ comprendre lorsqu'on est habitues ˆ ce style litteraire.

    I agree, and I think also (is this MsSuzzy) that the discipline of adapting yourself TO this is a great one and an experience not to be missed.. I personally LOVE the expressive language.




    Parfait!! I agree, MsSuzzy, PARFAIT< you all are!


    OK what have we left out before we go on, I?m taking the day today to immerse myself in this romantic, wonderful book, to catch up with you all. I?m reading at night a super book recommended to me by Mme, (Susan) for a friend embarking for France tomorrow (he loved it) called Paris to the Moon by Adam Gopnik, supposedly the finest book according to some of the RAVE reviews, written on France. It?s quite a book. Has the flavor of what I think of as French, the style, the joie de vivre, I love it almost as much as this discussion.

    What points might you all like to make today? What comes to mind when you read the book? Any questions YOU had?

    (What?s the French for ?Question Box?? hahahahaha

    mssuzy
    September 13, 2002 - 12:10 pm
    Bonjour a tous. Today I was no longer in Constantinople, but with the Croises, further down the road. Ginny asks if all the Croises felt that same fervor? How can we know? They were supposed to, that's what we know. I am glad to see that at least one woman in France had enough good sense not to go: Anseau's mother - with 5 small daughters. Can you imagine the mother of 5 babies and toddlers and little people on those roads? Apparently, women did not HAVE to go, as men did. As far as food (provisions), all along the tale Garin's family buys or recives things. The uncle (representing the low clergy) had useful connections all along. The soldiers? Well, they did what every soldier everywhere always did:take, accapparate, steal wherever they were. It was called, to justify it, to live off the land. I saw it first hand in France. Things have not changed that much. These 3 beautiful daughters are probably suposed to represent virtue, purity, innocence, and the attacks against these virtues during particularly unpleasant circumstances of life. I can't help comparing les Croises with young Palestinians or Afghans now. Anyone else does too? Ginny, you asked before when the feudal system came to France, and that bugs me. I don't have a date but will look it up. However, the way I remember from school and reading is that it was a simple evolution: between the end of the Roman Empire around the 5th c. and that of Charlemagne crowned in 802, we had all sorts of tribulations with the Carolingiens and Merovingiens kings (I can never remember which came first). They battled one another a lot and whoever won some battle was given a province, a duche or whatever. They then proceeded to build a chateau to protect that land and its people, or more likely their newly acquired title and position; and so began an interdependence between Lords or seigneurs and the "little" people, peasants at the bottom, artisans, military etc. Does that make sense? Croises are calling me, I'll be back later.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 13, 2002 - 01:09 pm
    I better clarify what I meant by not historically accurate until one looses interest thingy. When I read the book too I was thinking the same thing that they would slow down the soldier's advance and it is unlikely that they would wait for them. I would like to know if history says that women, children and old people went on the crusade. That is important to me historically, not in fiction, if the writing is good, I enjoy the literaturee.

    When I compare the literary style of a novelist like John Irving, whom I like very much, I wouldn't say he is using a high level of English comparing him with Jeanne Bourin, even if he is a good author. I analysed a sentence in A Prayer For Owen Meany on my computer once and it got a very high score. But Les Peregrines has that quality of French that is a delight to read. The story of course, is romantic first, historical second, but for the participants here, whom I find have a good command of French, it is just the ticket to get the brain working trying to get the drift of what the author is writing and that way it makes learning more French that much more interesting.

    Bon, j'en ai assez dit et j'ai assez pratique mon anglais maintenant.

    Nous finissons le premier chapitre. Quel evenement pensez-vous qui se prepare quand la famille de Garin sera sur le bateau qui les amnera en mer et coombien de personnes pensez-vous vont monter ˆ bord? O vont-ils dormir tous?

    La nef se remplissait lentement. Aprs les soldats enchemises de fer, venaient les plerins. Vtus de bliauds courts retenus ˆ la taille par une ceinture de cuir, enveloppes dans de longs manteaux ˆ capuchon ou coiffes de chapeaux ˆ large bords pour les preserver des intemperies, les hommes portaient presque tous la barbe.

    Donc les soldats montaient, combien? on ne le sait pas. Il me semble ici que tous etaient ensembles, soldats, femmes, enfants, vieillards, animaux. ‚a devait tre un grand navire.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    September 13, 2002 - 03:03 pm
    There were two crusades in the First Crusade- the People's Crusade and the Knight's Crusade.

    Peter the Hermit and German Wally rounded up about 12,000 mostly poor people and headed east. It is called the People"s crusade. Whole families packed up and walked with Peter and WAlly.It included men, women, children, old, young, infirm, poor, beggars and others. There was no organization- just follow Peter. There were many stragglers who were picked off in big bunches by bandits, by Hungarian troops, and by others who preyed on the pilgrim's way. Peter made it to Nicaea with a couple of thousand and these were wiped out when they challenged the city.

    The knight's Crusade which followed was more organized. There were four armies with leading independent figures in each who planned their advance. They knew roughly where they were going however, the road after Brindisi was much less certain. The composition of this crusade was substantially different from it's predecessor. The pilgrims and soldiers were on the road at the same time but they were not together. The soldier was not there to protect the pilgrims. He was living off the land which means he preyed on the pilgrims from time to time.

    They did not move as in a parade or as wagon trains cross the plains. The people from Chartres may have tried to stay together but they moved at their own pace. We know these things from the tales of chroniclers. Burin doesn't say very much about the passage from Chartres to Brindisi but it must have been a very arduous journey. The trip was made over the winter. The passes were probably filled with snow yet, Garin's family seems to have made the journey intact with little physical impact. They should be exhausted. The alps wreaked havoc on Napoleon and Hannibal. Why would the Garin tribe get away with such panache and in winter.The folks in Chartres were not mountaineers. Oops. I guess some history is useful to make a story but the whole story only gets in the way of the romance.

    Roslyn Stempel
    September 13, 2002 - 03:22 pm
    According to Zoe Oldenburg's account of the Crusades many women were indeed carried away by the fervor of the movement and joined the march. Whether, and how long, they persevered is not stated.

    I apologize for resorting to English here Thank you, Mme Suzzy, for courageously casting a dubious glance at the superficiality and inauthenticity of the writing here. I read the entire book during the summer and could see it only as a romance novel verging on the extreme of pulp fiction. As the story progressed I could feel the connection between historicity and fantasy becoming more and more tenuous. Ginny gently rebuked me at that time for reacting to what I saw as an excessively Christian bias, but I wonder now if she is slowly coming around to my viewpoint. As a Jew, though well- informed about the geist of the times, I had to be aware of the mindless massacres and unthinking infamies wrought upon the "infidels." Just so, I suppose, will the lynchings and other cruelties inflicted on African-Americans be referred to in histories of the 20th century: --"It was the way people felt -- they didn't know any better."

    I've read a variety of French fiction over the years and simply can't see this as of high literary quality. Nevertheless I will soldier on to the end as I profit from my second reading and enjoy the contributions of the francophones as well as those who are recapturing their mastery of la belle langue.

    Ros

    Justin
    September 13, 2002 - 11:05 pm
    The people Burin has chosen to include in this work are not typical of the aroused, no, inflamed pilgrims who blamed Jews for the crucifixion of Christ, and who sought out Jews in the towns they passed, so they could torture, and destroy them in retribution. The Saracens were a long way off but the Jews were readily available in every community they passed through. We see none of this great hatred among the pilgrims of Burin's story. A little anti-semitism would go a long way toward making these folks real. There is plenty of irrationality to go around in the pilgrimage movement but none of it shows up here in these characters. Ros and Msuzy are right. The characters are a little like Ken and Barbie. There are no viewpoints to examine. No conflict has been set up. These folks are not real pilgrims. Burin has not placed them in a real setting. They are on a camping trip away from home. Since I have been supplementing the material in the book with what is known about the first crusade from the chroniclers, historical differences have become apparent to me as they have to others.

    Eloise has called it from the start. She has said repeatedly that Les P is a romance novel in French that non native speakers can read and discuss in writing. She warned us not to expect more. The Question now is, do we continue to focus on what is historical vrs. what Burin includes in her novel or do we deal with Les P as a contained novel not holding it up to the mirror of history. The opportunity to read and write in French is a desirable one that does not appear very often. So I am happy to take advantage of that opportunity regardless of the quality of the work.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 14, 2002 - 05:53 am
    I am writing this in English because I want to be certain that I am expressing my feelings properly.

    I feel that I should at this moment state my approach here in this forum. My primary goal is to strengthen my French. My second goal is to enjoy the book. The second goal is FAR FAR below my first goal. The book, to me, is merely a vehicle. Is the book a "literary" or "historically accurate" piece? As far as I am concerned -- ca m'est egal -- je m'en fiche. A book about farming or logging or the construction of houses or soft pornography could have been chosen. I don't care so long as it is in French. Ginny, I believe, chose this book and, from my point of view, it is satisfactory. It is written in French and that, for me, is sufficient.

    I would accept a minimal amount of English to help here and there but if there starts to be more English than French, then I will have lost interest and will leave. I am taking this forum seriously. I spend almost every day struggling through the French in the book with my LaRousse by my side. Eloise says "nous finissons le premier chapitre." I am no where near the end of Chapter One which in my pocketbook ends on Page 44. I am still on Page 27. Perhaps I am way behind the rest of you and that is OK. I have no intention of holding you up. But in the meantime I am struggling to understand the book through the French I read. "Struggle" is the word and I don't mind. It is a foreign language to me and I expect to struggle. I am willing to be way behind you so long as most of the posts in this discussion group are in French and not English. And I don't care how rotten the French may be. Mine is nothing to brag about but hopefully I will get better and better as we read and discuss the book together in French.

    At least that is what I had thought the purpose of this discussion group to be.

    Robby

    Ginny
    September 14, 2002 - 06:46 am
    Wonderful thoughts, Everybody!

    Robby, I agree, no you are not the slowest, I am, and yes it's a tremendous struggle for me as well and it's worth it. Every day I feel I am getting stronger? Every day I think it's better.

    Roslyn apologized for speaking in English and Robby says if the discussion is in more English than French he's not interested, I hope you both can pardon me for a while till my rusty 40 year old reading French catches up with the rest of you, I simply cannot now speak in French here, nor should it be a requirement.

    I hope that 90 percent of the people speaking French will be sufficient for you all, if it's not please let me know asap? I hope to be able to speak in French when this discussion is over but I think that's my own burden to apply and not one others should impose, please let me know if I'm off base here?

    The purpose of this discussion is exactly as stated, to read a book in French and to further our own French in so doing, you must have patience with those of us of lesser ability, je vous en pris.




    If you all look at the weather maps this morning you will see why I may be absent for a few days, I have total confidence in our Eloise here who has introduced some questions which I will put in the heading. In the storms I hope to get thru the first chapter so we can talk about the events in it?

    more...

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 14, 2002 - 06:58 am
    Je vois la plume de ma tante. Ou est la salle de bain? Je suis un garcon.

    Robby

    Ginny
    September 14, 2002 - 07:07 am
    You've all made such great points, here's my reaction to a few:

    MsSuzzy:

    Ginny asks if all the Croises felt that same fervor? How can we know? They were supposed to, that's what we know.

    I think the individual motivations of each Pilgrim are important?

    We've discussed quote a lot here about the historical background, thank you eternally JUSTIN for that knowledge of the two Crusades and MsSuzzy for that additional background. Both those submissions I found quite helpful.

    To me, idealism and purity of thought in the FACE of dangerous, ugly, almost barbaric times is more strong than if it were done on a couch eating chocolates? It?s the contrast between what we KNOW must have been and what Bourin is choosing (that?s the operative word here) to depict?

    It's important that we have the real historical background so we can try to understand what Bourin is doing here and what, in turn, she is trying to convey.

    Not only does it not detract, it enhances the reading experience, or should, that?s my opinion.




    MsSuzzy, where have you BEEN? Don?t EVER go anywhere else, hahahaha I am glad to see that at least one woman in France had enough good sense not to go:

    Hahahaha

    Love it.


    These 3 beautiful daughters are probably supposed to represent virtue, purity, innocence, and the attacks against these virtues during particularly unpleasant circumstances of life

    Another super splendid point, it may be that the daughters are supposed to symbolize something, I do note the number 3, thank you for pointing that out, as well.




    I can't help comparing les Croises with young Palestinians or Afghans now.

    I sure don?t see this, but will leave this to others who do, what do you all think?

    However, the way I remember from school and reading is that it was a simple evolution

    Me too, it?s always a surprise to study French history and see things going on when you thought the rest of the world was dark, that?s exactly as I thought, many thanks!

    Well said, our Eloise: it is just the ticket to get the brain working trying to get the drift of what the author is writing and that way it makes learning more French that much more interesting.

    Garin's family seems to have made the journey intact with little physical impact. They should be exhausted. The alps wreaked havoc on Napoleon and Hannibal. Why would the Garin tribe get away with such panache and in winter.

    Good point, Justin, again, the author has chosen NOT to focus on this point, so we need to see what the author?s point might BE? Love this discussion you all could discuss the phone book with panache.

    Roslyn: Ginny gently rebuked me at that time for reacting to what I saw as an excessively Christian bias, but I wonder now if she is slowly coming around to my viewpoint.

    I?m going to go way out on a limb here and say that while the particular Pilgrims we see here are, in fact, acting out of a Christian point of view, and pilgrimage, I don?t see what other bias a religious pilgrimage would have? In other words, a Jew or a Muslim, or any Christian in 2002 reading this would find perhaps their focus to be equally strange? Or is it? I have never partaken in such a thing, do we HAVE the equivalent today at all?

    Jim Jones? Waco? Does anybody see what I?m asking?

    I?m saying we?re reading a book about a religious pilgrimage, this one happens to be Christian in nature, so far they have not tortured anybody and everybody?s hopes are high and idealism is high but yet we already see the beginnings of small frissons, how each character reacts I think will be the telling point, what do the rest of you think?

    A journee thru life is a journey thru life, these particular people are taking one none of us have (I assume) let me read more and catch up to the rest of you.

    Wonderful questions, Eloise, am putting them in the heading now,

    ginny

    Ginny
    September 14, 2002 - 07:39 am


    Monsieur Robby, vous avez dit ?la sale de bain?? hahahaha

    Un jour nous sommes alles ˆ Guadeloupe, ou on parle Franais seulement.

    Quelques-uns de notre groupe avaient? besoin de les toilettes.

    J?ai oublie le mot pour "toilette" et j?ai demande "Ou est la salle de bain, s?il vous plait ?"

    Bient™t nous resterons dans la cuisine, regardons l?evier ?

    Voyez vous pourquoi je ne parle pas Franais ? hahahaaha

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 14, 2002 - 08:31 am
    Justin, Je suis de votre avis. C'est une chance de pouvoir ecrire dans une langue ou dans l'autre et que tous se comprennent aisement. Lorsque je visited Seniornet chaque jour, c'est l'anglais que je pratique et ce n'est pas si naturel que ˆ pour moi.

    Jeanne Bourin a reu un prix de litterature trs convoite pour toute son oeuvre en France. A mon avis, il faut prendre un peu de recul et se garder de devenir blases et garder une certaine na•vete pour rester jeune de coeur. Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 14, 2002 - 09:12 am
    Ginny, La salle de bain ici ˆ Montreal c'est les toilettes. Vous l'avez utilise spontanement c'est simple et tout le monde a compris ce que vous cherchiez.

    J'espre que nous serons tous tolerants et spontanes dans cette discussion, sinon, je devrai retourner ˆ l'ecole pour apprendre la grammaire et franaise et anglaise, mais en ce moment j'etudie autre chose qui est beaucoup plus interessant.

    Robby, quelques uns ont lu tout le premier chapitre o la famille Garin monte ˆ bord de la nef et ils sont confrontes ˆ d'autres problmes comme, par exemple, o vont-ils tous coucher. Ils vont coucher sur le pont entasses les uns sur autres comme des sardines, tte bche et les matelots devront enjamber les corps, les malles, pour vaquer ˆ leur occupation et nous pourrons les suivres en se demandant ce qu'ils font dans cette galre.

    Elo•se

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 14, 2002 - 09:14 am
    Ginny:--

    Je ne savais pas qu'on ne parle que francais en Guadeloupe. Si on visiterait la-bas pendant peut-etre quatre semaines, on apprendrait le language tres vite.

    Si je me rappelle correctment, je crois qu'en France on dit ordinairement "lavabos" pas "salle de bain." Quelle difference? On saurait pourquoi vous voulez visiter cette particuliere salle!

    Eloise:--

    Je n'ai pas dit que je n'aime pas le livre de Jeanne Bourin. J'ai dit simplement que je veux le discuter en francais. J'espere que je suis "jeune de coeur."

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 14, 2002 - 09:39 am
    Robby, on dit en France les WC (Water Closet) qui est firement affiche sur la porte des toilettes partout o j'ai ete dans ce pays. Un lavabo est un petit evier qui sert ˆ se laver les mains. Avec la qualite de franais que vous demontrez, si vous n'en tes rendus qu'ˆ la page 27, c'est que probablement que vous n'avez pas le temps d'en lire plus, et c'est tout-ˆ-fait normal puisque vous travaillez. Rien ne nous oblige d'aller plus vite, c'est le groupe qui decidera.

    Je suis tout-ˆ-fait heureuse ici de discuter avec vous tous qui avez tellement de choses ˆ transmettre. N'hesitez surtout pas ˆ dire tout ce que vous voulez et je vous aiderai autant que je peux.

    Elo•se

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 14, 2002 - 10:16 am
    Oui, Eloise. J'ai oublie cela -- le WC. Et je me demande maintenant -- ou etaient les WC pour les peregrins?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 14, 2002 - 11:30 am
    Quelque fois il y a des phrases dans le livre qui me faisent diminuer la vitesse, e.g. "Dans le port, les effluves marins etaient malencontreusement meles a des relents de goudron, de toile, de saumure, de dechets de toute sortes qui en attenuaient beaucoup l'attrait. Il y avait des mots ici qui etaient completement etranges et je l'ai trouve necessaire de les chercher dans le dictionnaire.

    Robby

    mssuzy
    September 14, 2002 - 02:48 pm
    Bonjour! Ce livre est tellement passionnant que je n'ai pas pu le poser, j'en suis aux dernieres pages. Et je le redis, je vous admire tous qui continuez a le lire avec un dictionnaire, je ne crois pas que j'aurais cette ardeur. Le vocabulaire est extraordinaire et J. Bourin un auteur etonnant dans les descriptions qu'elle nous donne. C'est pourquoi je ne peux pas m'arreter. Quand j'aurai termine, je recommencerai plus lentement pour gouter et savourer les passages preferes comme on deguste ou savoure un excellent dessert, pour faire durer le plaisir. Question "salle de bain" m'amuse beaucoup. Ca m'a rappele les deboires d'une amie, francaise, qui travaillait dans le lobby de l'Ambassade des E.U. a Paris. Des Americains sont entres et lui ont demande "Where is the bathroom?" et elle, tres francaise et de surcroit nouvelle, leur a repondu "We don't have any". S'ils avaient demande "les toilettes", elle aurait compris tout de suite. Quant aux pelerins, ils faisaient sans doute, certainement meme, comme beaucoup de Francais avant les autoroutes: on arrete la voiture. l'homme se tourne et femmes et enfants disparaissent dans le fosse ou derriere un arbuste. J'ai ete elevee comme ca et ca me paraissait tout a fait naturel - jusquau moment ou j'ai emmene mes petits-enfants americains en France et qu'ils ont pousse des cris d'horreur!

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 14, 2002 - 03:57 pm
    Pendant la guerre, beaucoup d'Americains qui s'elevaient en Amerique avec toutes les facilites modernes suddainment s'ont trouves en Europe ou en Asie sans toutes ces facilites. Mais nous avons appris tres vite!

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 14, 2002 - 05:46 pm
    Concernant Brunissen, je vois une jeune fille tres innocente. Elle a peur des "paiens, les Sarrasins, les ennemis de Dieu." Mais comment sait-elle cela? Elle a recu son education des pretes et c'est tout. Et maintenant elle est marche pendant huit mois contre des ennemis qu'elle ne connait pas. C'est extraordinaire le pouvoir qui etait dans les mains des pretes. Si on dit "marche," on marche. On peut dire que tous ces peuple ont marche parce qu'ils etaient si religieux mais d'ou viens cette religion? Evidemment c'etait la meme histoire a l'autre cote a Jerusalem.

    Robby

    MmeW
    September 14, 2002 - 07:58 pm
    Bonjour, tout le monde! Je suis de retour de Californie, mais il m'a fallu quelque jours pour trouver le courage d'aborder Les Ps avec 78 new posts!

    C'etait un plaisir de vous lire enfin. Je vais d'abord repondre ˆ quelques-uns d'entre vous au sujet du langage et des personnages et aprs je poserai quelques questions. First : Language.

    Robby: "I am willing to be way behind you so long as most of the posts in this discussion group are in French and not English. And I don't care how rotten the French may be...if there starts to be more English than French, then I will have lost interest and will leave." On the original thread involving choosing the book, it was my understanding that: "We will not discuss in those languages, by the way," (post 15) which was one of the reasons that I chose to do this.

    It?s not that I?m worried about grammar, or even vocabulary (though gender is frustrating), but I think that sometimes things just need to be said in English to make sure we?re "all on the same page," so to speak. A clarification of something French in French does not always have a clarifying effect (when I look up words in my Petit Robert, I find the definitions sending me to other words; however, I find that a great way to make vocabulary your own; though that?s why I don?t know the English translation for half the words I know in French).

    The quote I referred to was from our beloved Ginny, and no one (including you) protested. However, I?m willing to give it a shot, falling back on English when I?m tired or don?t know how to say something. But I don?t think you should criticize (or worse, hold hostage by saying that you?ll go away) those who are hesitant to express themselves in French. I hope this doesn?t sound too harsh. I certainly don?t mean it to be, and you are probably pushing us to be "the best that we can be" by encouraging French communication.

    MsSuzy, j?ai beaucoup apprecie votre commentaire sur le langage. J?ai ete frappe par le vouvoiement entre frre et s?urs. Sžrement il y avait quelque chose de pareil au Moyen Age; autrement pourquoir Bourin aurait-elle ecrit d?une telle faon? J?ai remarque aussi l?emploi d?un vieux vocabulaire tel que Ç face È pour visage, Ç presents È pour cadeaux. Je suppose c?est pour donner un effet Ç vieux È au texte.

    Ginny: Ç J?ai oublie le mot pour "toilette" et j?ai demande "Ou est la salle de bain, s?il vous plait ? È J?avais un ami de l?universite qui avait assiste ˆ un lycee suisse et etait trs superieur ˆ nous tous parce qu?il avait vraiment entendu des gens parler franais. Il est venu me rendre visite ˆ Paris, nous sommes alles dans un restaurant et il a pose la mme question (much to my delight). La replique de la serveuse : Ç Pourquoi ? Vous voulez prendre un bain ? È

    Eloise: When I compare the literary style of a novelist like John Irving, whom I like very much, I wouldn't say he is using a high level of English comparing him with Jeanne Bourin, even if he is a good author. I analysed a sentence in A Prayer For Owen Meany on my computer once and it got a very high score. But Les Peregrines has that quality of French that is a delight to read.

    Vous avez cite deux de mes livres favoris?Owen Meany here, Red and the Black when we were choosing. Mon problme avec Les Ps c?est que chaque fois que quelqu?un demande Ç pourquoi, telle ou telle chose È je me dis, Ç OK, another history lesson. È Since this is the introduction, I presume that conversation will be more natural later on.

    J?avais un prof de composition (ˆ l?universite Laval, au fait) qui nous a enseigne d?ecrire en phrases courtes pour mieux ecrire en franais, et je trouve qu?ˆ part Proust et son genre beaucoup d?auteurs franais ecrivent simplement, presque poetique et facile ˆ lire pour nous les etrangers.

    To be continued...

    MmeW
    September 14, 2002 - 10:25 pm
    Ros :I've read a variety of French fiction over the years and simply can't see this as of high literary quality. I agree, though I must admit that I read French mysteries just to keep my hand in. I buy the Prix Cognac for each year because I know they are by French authors, but I?m always disappointed when they take place in the US.

    Eloise: Donc les soldats montaient, combien? on ne le sait pas. Il me semble ici que tous etaient ensembles, soldats, femmes, enfants, vieillards, animaux. ‚a devait tre un grand navire. A la p. 30, la timide dit : Ç On parle de mille chevaliers et de sept ou huit mille hommes de pied. È et il me semble qu?elles parlent de ce voyage-ci.

    Ginny : Ç A somewhat sinister note into the story has been introduced by "matou:" (does that mean what I think it means?) Herbert Chauffecire. I?ve been wondering all along at the wisdom or naivete of Garin, setting out for this long journey with so many desirable daughters so beautiful that heads turn when they pass?

    Ginny, Herbert was introduced to us on p. 17 (remember cirier de son etat ?), a neighbor from Chartres. So Herbert was circling around the gals anyway. Might as well go on a trip. But that description of him with his fleshy lips and Ç regard vairon È, yuk ! (I understand that to mean he had white circles around his irises.) ON THE OTHER HAND, I have fallen big time for Mathieu ! What a cutie !

    Justin: Brunissen has a boyfriend whom she had to leave behind. He was required to work the land for two sisters and a widowed mother. Without that encumbrance, he would certainly have followed along with Brunissen.

    I got the impression that Anseau stayed home because he was Garin?s assistant and took care of the business while Garin and family were gone, so he had familial and future familial reasons for staying. I didn?t see anything about working the land?

    Cleanliness. Many of you commented on the pristineness of it all, but when Flaminia talks of the sea, she forgets her old, worn-out, dirty bliaud and feels cleansed of the sweat of the road. They talk of the mud and bad weather blackening the bourdon and besace. I remember several references to the general yuckiness of time on the road.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 15, 2002 - 04:18 am
    Just to briefly qualify -- I agree with the need to occasionally explain in English. I was becoming concerned with what I saw as the high percentage of English being used and the low percentage of French being used. In that way I wasn't being "forced" to try to understand the French. Call it selfish. I wanted to be "immersed" in the French. Not totally of course but enough to challenge me.

    But I don't want to beat a dead horse (how do you say that in French?) I'll be back with some comments about the book.

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 15, 2002 - 04:53 am
    Bonjour tous, quelle effervescence ici mes amis.

    Nous avons tous un motif different pour se joindre ˆ la discussion. Mais le but commun est de discuter d?un livre ecrit en franais et comme nous avons tous une differente connaissance de la langue franaise et un cheminement different dans la vie, c?est difficile d?avoir tous la mme opinion. Ginny a demande de lui soumettre un choix et Les Peregrines est ressorti comme etant un livre assez simple ˆ lire pour permettre ˆ ceux que le franais n?est pas leur langue maternelle, de pratiquer en lisant. N?importe quel livre, comme dit Robby aurait fait l?affaire, mais Les P en plus, avait la periode medievale avec les croisades qui suscitait l?intert tout en ayant un vocabulaire riche et varie. Il ne nous demande pas de serieuses dissertation philosophique et c?etait voulu ds le depart.

    Can I suggest that we try and use a bit in French every time we post if that is not too much to ask, but I remember it being mentioned at the start that we could post in any language we choose. Personally I prefer flexibility and let every valuable idea flow freely.

    Robby dit: "Dans le port, les effluves marins etaient malencontreusement meles a des relents de goudron, de toile, de saumure, de dechets de toute sortes qui en attenuaient beaucoup l'attrait." Effluves = disagreable whifs. Relents = stink. Attenuer = tone down, to mitigate. Malencontreusement = malheureusement.

    Justin - When you say that there are no viewpoints to examine, what about a Catholic viewpoint? Or did you mean that Garin?s family had no point of view?

    MsSuzy ? Quel elan et je craignais au depart que Les Peregrines ne vous plairait pas. Merci de le lire encore une fois et de nous donner votre point de vue qui est trs apprecie.

    MmeW ? Yeux vairon, le Larousse dit: Yeux de couleur differente.

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    September 15, 2002 - 05:15 am
    Mais non, Monsieur Robert, Guadeloupe est compltement (99%) Franais : qv The French island of Guadeloupe.

    Vous avez pensee que Guadeloupe serait espagnole, n?est-ce pas ? Moi, aussi, c?est parce que je n?ai ouvrir les livres Franais en vue de voyage

    Et alors, a cette epoque quand j?ai visite, aucun de personnes dont nous rencontrons, ( ?) (I must get a French grammar, my past tenses are a mess) parlerait ? Franais.

    Hahaah I have promised Robby to sprinkle French among my phrases, LOVED the stories, Mme and Mssuzzy, on the sale de bain !

    Robby, that question about Brunissen is the one I have been asking or trying to ask, I think it?s a good one.

    Imagine, ladies, the physical encumberments of the costume of the day and les salles de bain? Hahahahahaa ou les WC.

    Welcome back, Mme!!! We have bad storms here, so will be off a bit, the remains of Tropical Storm Hanna.

    A bient™t!

    ginny

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 15, 2002 - 06:17 am
    Ah-ha, Mme Ginny, vous etes plus capable de parler en francais que vous avez dit. Apropos de present vs passe, comme dit les philosophes, tout est dan le present, n'est-ce pas?

    Robby

    MmeW
    September 15, 2002 - 08:49 am
    Ginny, en effet la Guadaloupe est un departement franais, une partie de la France, comme Hawaii aux Etats-Unis, donc 100% franaise.

    Elo•se, Ç vairon È Larousse dit yeux de couleurs differents ; Robert de Poche dit yeux ˆ l?iris cercle d?une teinte blanch‰tre. Harper-Collins dit wall-eyes (an eye with a light-colored iris or large bulging eyes). MsSuzy, vous connaissez ce mot? Je sais que ce n?est pas important, mais je le trouve curieux que les dictionnaires sont si differents.

    Je crois que nous verrons encore ce matou d?Herbert, et j?espre aussi revoir Mathieu le barbier (mais il travaille sur la nef, donc peut-tre pas).

    J?ai beaucoup aime la description de Flaminia et la mer ˆ la page 22 : Ç Une sorte de griserie s?etait emparee d?elle?. Ce bain vivifiant lui donnait l?impression de participer de tout son tre ˆ la splendeur de la Creation. È Quelle magnifique description de la joie de jeunesse, le printemps, la mer. Et a continue avec des sensations sensuelles. J?etais vraiment lˆ. (J?adore la mer.)

    Aussi la belle description de Landry, qui avait Ç "quelque chose de solaire. È

    J?ai trouve les termes injurieux pour ceux qui ne partaient pas en croisade un peu bizarres : souffle-tisons, mange-vite, outres-ˆ-vin. Why would they call them blow-on-embers, eat-fast, and wine-sacks ?

    La rencontre avec l?homme barbu presage-t-elle quelque chose de mauvais ou etait-ce simplement une occasion d?enumerer les Ç elements douteux È du voyage : aventuriers, voleurs, ceux qui avaient commis un peche ou un crime si terrible qu?ils ont dž faire le voyage pour l?expier, ceux qu'un autre avait paye pour faire le voyage, etc.

    Interessant aussi qu?ils ont dž Ç graisser la patte È au scribe pourqu'il leur donne un bon endroit pour leurs coffres et leurs nattes de paille. Pour survivre il fallait avoir beaucoup d?astuce (et un peu de fric).

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 15, 2002 - 09:02 am
    "Graisser la patte" -- une phrase tres interessante. Ce n'est pas necessaire de comprendre le francais pour comprendre cela!

    Et "fric" aussi. Bien compris!

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 16, 2002 - 05:19 am
    Celˆ m'etonne qu'ils disent 'ch‰teau' en parlant du navire, ˆ ma page 26. Plus loin "Enfin, il reste au milieu de la nef, en plein air, sur la couverte (le pont) des places o s'entassent, helas! presque tous les plerins." Ils devront donc passer tout le temps dehors pour la traversee qui devrait se faire assez vite ˆ moins que le vent ne viennent gonfler les voiles, ce qui arriva.

    Ginny, I am sorry about the tornadoes and the bad weather. We have almost continuous sunshine here since June with just enough rain for the crops. I hope your crops will be fine where you are.

    MmeW and Robby - fric is a relatively new word not yet in the Webster, but I bet it will become official, especially of Americans invent it. It is very descriptive and it sound good.

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    September 16, 2002 - 05:51 am
    Merci, Eloise, not sure about the crop (and don't have time to put this in French, Robby, too much lightning) but I'm so glad to see such wonderful activity here.

    I'm nearing the end of Chapter One, and finding that the jokes? The jokes are going right over my head. Michael made a joke and everybody laughed and I have no earthly why?

    What is the meaning of Courtheuse? I understand his physical appearance but since his name apparently reflects that, I can't find that word in the dictionary?

    Now we see young Landry greasing the palm of the scribe of the ship (seems to be the Purser?) to get good accommodations but am not sure if Garin realized how they came by such good places? Does it say that he understands what happened, or perhaps it did not happen as Landry thinks?

    Am confused by the giant numbers of those processing? How many ships have they and how many do the ships of that time carry? While at Greenwich you can look at some of the relatively "old" ships and they sure didn't carry many people, certainly not thousands and certainly no room for horses, are these FERRIES?

    What's a dunette? Not in my dictionary?

    What does Maisne mean? I note quite a few characters have names that describe them? Like Flaminia with her hair and Andeau le Bel.

    Is Michael a barber? Can?t find barbier?

    What?s an annee ecoulee?

    I?ve got two pages to go to finish Chapter One and am very excited here, my first French Chapter in 40 years! YAY!

    What does this mean?

    Sans parler des quereurs de pardon, ces professionnels du plerinage qui les effectuaient pour le compte d?u autre et contre remuneration.? And the sentence after it ? Page 33) Not sure what those lines mean ?



    I note in a sort of throw away passage that Garin is actually the Bishop?s parchment maker. In other words, he has a commission and a high one at that. Maybe THAT?S why he is going and the family le Bel is not? As a craftsman he must hold a pretty high place in the town and as Robert ici avait dit, he?s well connected thru Pere Ascelin, whom the list of characters says is also attached to the Bishop.

    These people talk like Constantinople is just around the corner, it?s amazing to me, Pere Ascelin is either way up there or extremely well traveled?

    Enfin, les ourages ici sont formidable, je reviens (see Robby, I DID do it after all) bient™t.

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 16, 2002 - 06:54 am
    Ginny - Bravo de vous lancer dans le franais. J'aime bien et a prouve que vous faites des efforts. C'est a qui compte.

    Bravo aussi Robby - Chaque phrase que vous employez sera maintenant disponible dans l'avenir. Mais si vous ne faites aucun efforts, inutile d'esperer que le franais revienne comme par enchantement.

    Je me demandais aussi comment 1,000 cavaliers et 10,000 plerins traverseront l'Adriatique en voilier qui ne sont pas tellement grands et contiennent au plus une centaine de personnes, ils sont tasses comme des sardines sur le pont, dans la cale avec les chevaux et les mulets. I don't think they looked like ferries either. Un voilier doit avoir une certaine forme pour bien naviguer en mer avec le vent.

    Le Larousse dit: "Dunette est une superstructure fermee, placee sur le pont arrire d'un navire." (where the ship's captain sleeps)

    Barbier is a barber. Annee ecoulee is the past year.

    "Sans parler des quereurs de pardon, ces professionnels du plerinage qui les effectuaient pour le compte d?u autre et contre remuneration.? And the sentence after it?"

    Ces personnes etaient parmi les croises pour faire de l'argent avec la vente de medaille miraculeuse de souvenirs (comme partout o une foule se rassemble)

    Mathieu (not Michael) racontait qu'il avait fait nauffrage et que c'etait sa medaille miraculeuse qui l'avait sauve de la noyade. Apparamment comme il etait barbier et il parlait la langue (Italian?) il a ete engage sur la nef (navire).

    As Mathieu has a good sense of humour, he is good company for the family as he always finds something funny to say.

    Courteheuse - just a name. Court: means short

    Elo•se

    MmeW
    September 16, 2002 - 11:38 am
    Elo•se, je n'ai pas bien compris ce que vous avez ecrit au-dessus. Je voulais dire le mot franais Ç fric È, qui est dans Larousse, mais pas Webster.

    Ginny, Ç Sans parler des quereurs de pardon, ces professionnels du plerinage qui les effectuaient pour le compte d?un autre et contre remuneration.? And the sentence after it ? Page 33) È

    I think it says that some people paid the Ç pardon-seekers È (quereurs de pardon) to take the trip for them, much as rich people paid poor ones to go in their place to war. The sentence after says that they often combined this duty with other services like the commerce in relics, which was very remunerative.

    Maybe THAT?S why he is going and the family le Bel is not?

    That may play a part in it, but all that Bourin has said is that he was unable to go with them. She does go on to say that since Anseau was Garin?s assistant, it was his job to maintain the family business in their absence. Ç ?le jeune parcheminier, qui travaillait avec Garin, s?etait vu confier par son ma”tre la petite entreprise dont il avait accepte la charge durant l?absence des plerins partis avec celle qu?il aimait. È

    Hugo de Maisne : no idea. Well, I have an idea, of course, but have no idea if it?s right. Domaine used to be spelled with an Ç s È (domaisne) I think. Therefore, it was my thought that maybe maisne meant property, and it meant that he was propertied.

    Mathieu?s joke : He was laughing because Hugo thought he should be brought into the presence of the Bysantine emperor with great pomp and circumstance befitting his position, but instead was taken there as a pitiful shipwrecked guy (at least that?s what I undertood).

    AAlice
    September 16, 2002 - 06:17 pm
    Ok, Eloise, I have my "Learning to speak French" book out and so far it is not much help. I think I will read some of the previous post and see if I can figure out what is going on.

    Justin
    September 16, 2002 - 11:24 pm
    Mathieu est un barbier. Il parle l'Italien aussi la Francaise. La dunette est une "poop deck" C'est situe avance ˆ le "fantail".

    J'ai celebre mon anniversaire noce-jubile. Oui, notre cinquantaine l'anniversaire. Je suis desole que je manque sous peu mais je vous attraperez.

    Il y a des dessins dans le Louvre de 11th et 12th seicle les miniatures qui peindre les nefs du crusade. Ces tableaux indiquant les navires etait equipe avec un toile a voile carree vingt-quatre rameur,la dunette, et l'espace pour les chevaux. Ces nefs tenant l'approximativement deux cent hommes.

    MmeW
    September 17, 2002 - 08:24 am
    Justin, felicitations sur votre cinquantime anniversaire de mariage! Je suis sžre que vous avez eu beaucoup de belles festivites pour le celebrer. Vous tes vraiment benisses d'avoir pu passer tant de beaux ans ensembles.

    Franchement, "dunette" me dit autant que "poop deck," c'est-ˆ-dire pas beaucoup. Je ne suis pas marin. Peu importe, il suffit de savoir que l'un se trouve ˆ l'avant et l'autre se trouve en arrire. J

    Ginny
    September 17, 2002 - 11:20 am
    Le pauvre Garin, je connais cela, actuellement. Une fois, mon cheval grand et oseille, fait la mme chose, mais dans mes cotes, pas le front, les chevaux sont facilement fiaient ? sursautent.

    Congratulations, Justin ! 50 years of marriage, many many congratulations !!

    Merci, Eloise, you are such a help, could not do it without all of you! Thank you for all those helpful translations, dunette really got me. Loved your sardine thing. Hahaahah

    Speaking of toilettes, can you IMAGINE what it must have been like, in the costume of the day, on a SHIP? What, did they hang over the side? Think a mo!

    Mme, that?s interesting about property and the name, I bet you are right! Fascinating take on those going in place of others just like a mercenary in the war? You would think that would stretch the blessings received a tad far, but you know what? They were pretty ingenious back then, too. I appreciate that help with that tricky part, Eloise and Mme.

    If everybody has noticed the super straw soldiers on the Carcassonne playing card I?ll put another one up (they fascinate me) showing how Carcassonne got its name. I love Carcassonne.

    The song: Que le trs saint sepulcre? Is this a real song ? Have you all ever heard of it before?

    Which word wins your choice of the most repeated word to date? I like ?but.? I bet I have looked up ?but? and ?guere? 8 million times!

    Zut alors! Hahahahaha

    What does fougeux mean?

    But it?s getting easier for me, how about the rest of you? So our little band of pilgrims is leaderless and the Scribe has turned to Landry, now the oldest male? Not Pere Ascelin?

    I love the word gonflait.

    So here we are at the end of Chapter I, I can hardly believe we have read (or I have anyway) 37 pages in French about the First Crusade. Pinch me, I?m dreaming, and what a super compagnie to do it in! hahahaha

    OK I am not understanding the physical thing about Garin, does it say he was leaning on the area behind the knee? I?m confused on the actual (I know what happened to him, the hoof in the forehead, etc.,) but am confused on HOW it happened?

    One time here locally at the Upper State Fair, a young man was leading his cow to the show ring and a train passing by caused the cars to bang together and the cow bolted and the young man was hurt badly.

    I would think (I feel sorry for Garin now) but I would think that anybody who knew horses would not have been fooling around the hind end of one with all that carrying on, or would Garin have known there would BE carrying on, I can?t imagine the set up, can?t see it physically. How close WAS he? You know if you lean against a horse and it kicks then you are actually thrust away from the horse, you don?t get a hoof in the head (she remorselessly wrote, having been on the receiving end many times herself?) I still have a horse but I would not get near the hind end of it for a million bucks.

    It?s a shame we can?t act this out, actually, it almost reads like a play, n?est-ce pas?

    Thank you Justin for the information about the ships, so they may have held 200, so we?re talking about a veritable fleet across the sea, and our little group has just lost the Parcheminier right? IS the ship under way? I see the sails are unfurled (if I understood that) is the ship actually moving?

    How do you say random thoughts from a random mind in French? Hahahaaha

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 17, 2002 - 02:54 pm
    Justin - Je vous felicite pour votre cinquantime anniversaire de mariage, quel bel exemple de constance.

    Ginny - Random means "au hasard" but you can't very say 'des pensees au hasard" ni des 'idees au hasard' a ne se dit pas. Qu'en pensez-vous MmeW et Suzy? There are just no adequate translation for those sayings.

    If we can think that the horses were kept in very close quarters and there were not much room for Garin to work on the raw skin of his beloved horse and I just imagine that he had no choice but to be very close. As the trumpets blew very close by, the horse was too surprised and reared. When Garin he heard the trumpets blow he had no room to manoever away, I am just guessing.

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 17, 2002 - 04:35 pm
    I think that the horses were kept in very close quarters and there was not much room for Garin to work on the raw skin of his beloved horse and I imagine that he was in a tight spot. As the trumpets blew at close range, it surprised the horse and it reared. and Garin had no room to back of, I am just guessing. ---------------

    Je pense qu'il n'y avait pas beaucoup de place et les chevaux etaient dans des enclos trs etroits. Alors lorsque les trompettes ont retenti le cheval a lance une ruade alors que Garin etait panche pour soigner ses blessures et il n'a pas eu le temps de se relever et de reculer.

    Excusez mes phrases dans les deux langues, c'etait fait inconsciemment.

    Roslyn Stempel
    September 17, 2002 - 05:11 pm
    Ginny, bientot nous nous trouverons a Constantinople, ville de beaute, des parfums, des bijoux, de palais marbrees, de belles femmes jalouses et beaux hommes, dont un va troubler nos amies.

    J'ai trouve l'ecriture de de chapitre un peu different, peut-etre comme les auteurs des romans americains sur les riches gens vivant "la vie rapide," "le jet-set" ou que vouv voulez. Apres le ton lugubre du premier chapitre ca me semble presque amusant.

    Ros

    MmeW
    September 17, 2002 - 08:44 pm
    I was under the impression that the horses were suspended from straps, so I wonder how the horse got the purchase to kick Garin...

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 18, 2002 - 04:14 am
    Je realise que je n'ai rien dit ici pour deux ou trois jours. Je m'excuse. Ce n'est pas parce mon interet est disparu. Hier j'etais occupe toute la journee. Ce matin je sors pour Richmond et peut-etre ce soir je pourrai dire quelque chose. Je continue a lire le livre quand j'ai le temps. Je demande que vous soyez patients avec moi.

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 18, 2002 - 05:08 am
    MmeW - J'etais certaine que les chevaux etaient supportes par des courroies, mais que leurs pieds pouvaient encore toucher par terre. Je ne sais pas, mais lorsqu'un cheval est surpris par un bruit sonore, il va ruer. Cet episode avec les chevaux m'a fait poser beaucoup de questions. Je me suis demande comment ont-ils pu embarquer tant d'animaux. Mais je crois que l'auteur ne s'est pas soucie outre mesure de ces details pour mettre l'accent plut™t sur la dramatique et garder un certain suspense.

    Robby, nous serons patients, et nous attendrons. Je remarque que votre franais s'est raffermi et je pense que ce ne sera pas difficile pour vous de le reconquerir.

    Roslyn, c'est vrai et heureusement que nous passerons d'une periode sombre ˆ une periode legre o nous pourrons nous imaginer les splendeurs de Constantinople au moment des Croisades.

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 19, 2002 - 07:14 am
    I am wondering if the language is very hard for some participants and if they would like some clarifications on the text sometimes. If that is so, please don't hesitate to ask and some of us will be happy to explain in English. Sometimes a language can be so frustrating because the words are not found in the dictionnary for instance, the forms of verbs are not always included. I could not find "occis" in my Larousse but I know it is 'kill', but the text told me that that is what it meant.

    French tapes would be very helpful for those who never hear French. They would provide the sounds. There are some French tapes with lessons here in Montreal. I found English lessons for my students with tapes, it was very well done.

    Elo•se

    Joan Grimes
    September 19, 2002 - 07:55 am
    Hi Everyone,

    I have not read the book because I just do not have the time. We have been home from France for a little over a week and before that I had so many different things to do that I just could not get into this book. Lately it is hard for me to even find time to read a book in English. However I have been reading the comments in this discussion.

    I just had to jump in here when Eloise mentioned tapes in French for those who do not hear F rench often. There is an excellent program that comes on tape or cd called "Champs Elysees" . It is a little magazine containing articles and news of things happening in France. The magazine comes along with the tape or cd if you subscribe to this. I believe that it is monthly. There are exercises that you can get if you want to pay more. I just do the cd and magazine. You can listen to it while you are on the computer or while you are in your car, etc. It is a really good program. Also I have recently subscribed to "Fluent Ear Productions" which comes every two months. It has a little book called "Fluent French Audio" that goes along with the cd. These are especially good for me as I am becoming quite deaf and I can hear these although I have much trouble in general conversation because it is hard for me to hear the French with other noises going on around.

    If anyone is interested in these programs here are the Urls to find them on the Internet.

    http://www.fluentfrench.com/

    and

    http://www.champs-elysees.com/cehome.php3

    I enjoy both programs very much as I really miss French.

    Joan

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 19, 2002 - 08:03 am
    Bonjour, Joan! Meme si vous n'avez pas le livre, j'espere que vous viendrez ici souvent. Je me rappelle bien le jour quand vous, Eloise, Theron, et moi etaient a Corning, New York, et nous avons parle un peu en francais.

    Robby

    Joan Grimes
    September 19, 2002 - 08:08 am
    Bonjour Robby,

    I do come here nearly every day to read what is being said here.

    I also remember that day in Corning. It has been almost a year now. It was so pleasant there.

    I have the book but just cannot seem to find the time to read it.

    Joan

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 19, 2002 - 08:39 am
    It's ineresting how even a brief knowledge of one language can help with another language, especially if they have the same root, e.g. Latin root of French, Spanish, and Italian (also English). I never saw the word "cervoise" before but I knew that "cerveza" in Spanish meant beer so I guessed it meant the same. Chapon meaning capon, for example.

    Then there are words in this book which my French teacher never taught us. Who would know that "l'ost" is the king's army? or that "trone" is throne. (Sounds like a two-year old who can't pronounce his "h!" "Bouillie" is like bouillion, so boiled can be guessed.

    Robby

    Ginny
    September 19, 2002 - 09:18 am
    Benvenue, Mme Joan G! And thank you very much for that super suggestion, I never heard of either and they sound JUST the thing, my biggest hang up seems to be I can sort of understand the French (can understand what you all say anyway) but I can't seem to make the bridge over into thinking (tho that's coming) and speaking it.

    Et j'ai etudie ??!!?? (I am going after a French grammar today !) le franais beaucoup des annees!

    Joan G also helped me get the accents back on my computer, for which I am extremely grateful and for which I keep forgetting to thank her!! Mercie, Joan G!

    But it's like a rusty pump, it'll run again, do you realize we've read almost 40 huge pages in French? In some books that would be half way, I'm proud of us.




    So the horse reared rather than struck out with his hind legs, that makes sense, somewhat.

    I've been thinking about some of the details we've revealed here and have some comments from a reading I'm doing o the Crusades, I'll post them later along with a photo of the Holy Sepulcre that they were going to free, but there are no songs extant from the First Crusade, and only a couple from the Second but they DID sing.

    Also there's a good bit about the Mind of the Crusdaer in the book The Qxford History of the Crusades. I am trying to find my own answer to this question and I'll pose it to you, too:

    If the ship had not set sail, do you think our little group would have continued on or set back for home, having lost its head, Garin, and being essentially led by women?

    I find myself thinking about this little group during the day, need to read on in Chapter 2 and see what happens to them, more later, we have storms....

    ginny

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 19, 2002 - 09:24 am
    Ginny, YOU may have read 40 pages in French. I am back around page 25. How do you say Dunce in French?

    Robby

    Ginny
    September 19, 2002 - 10:03 am
    Ah Monsieur Robert, cela, je sais bien!

    "ginny"

    hahahaha

    ginny

    MmeW
    September 19, 2002 - 10:20 am
    Robby, que pensez-vous de cretin? imbecile? ‰ne? (cancre = elve paresseux et nul, mais les autres sont plus reconnaissables par les gens qui parle anglais). Cretin s'emploie souvent pour des gens btes ou stupides.

    Vous ne l'tes pas, de toute faon, mais c'est bon d'apprendre de nouveaux mots, n'est-ce pas, mme si ce n'est pas gentil de s'en servir.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 19, 2002 - 03:30 pm
    J'ecris presentement sur l'ordinateur de ma fille, parce que je garde mon petit-fils ici.

    Merci Joan de venir nous aider et de nous donner des endroits o se procurer des cours sur cassette ou CD en franais. Je vais aller voir sur vos liens. Ce sera fantastique pour tous ici, et je crois que je vais m'y abonner.

    Ginny, J'ai appris l'anglais en faisant simplement de la copie.

    Bonsoir Justin et tous les autres. A bient™t.

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    September 20, 2002 - 12:39 pm
    Bonjour, Tous! I have a new French grammar which I was extremely excited about until I got it home, yes it takes the most common verbs and shows all the tense formations, but helas, doggone thing and the explanations ARE in French as you go along, too late I note the switch and too late I note the little red band sur la couvert saying Intermediate and Advanced French, zut alors! Hahahaahha

    Jeepers creepers.

    Anyway, a few hurried notes en Englais.

    In the heading you can now see what the Pilgrims were all heading for: the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem.

    The smaller photo is quite bad but if you click on it you can see



    The goal of early Crusades to the East: The aedicule in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, Jerusalem. The small structure under the dome of the rotunda encases the remains of the cave tomb which had been vandalized by the Egyptians in 1009.

    This and the accompanying information come from The Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusades.



    This is a magnificent book. Many of my questions are answered but not all. For instance on the topic of the organization or lack of it, it seems Bourin has read her history!



    It may be that the evidence has not survived, but for the First Crusade there appears to have been very little advance planning on the part of the leaders. Presumably they communicated with each other and set Constantinople as the mustering point, but it does not seem that they had taken prior action over the crucial matter of supply once they had left their own lands.

    Very suggestive are the clashes on reaching Byzantine territory, for example, and the fact that a negotiated settlement was reached with Emperor Alexius, concerning the furnishing of markets for provision and the security and safe-conduct of the crusaders, only on the having reached Constantinople.

    Nor is there any indication that those who crossed the Adriatic had arranged shipping in advance from the various ports, and the very events of the crusade demonstrate clearly that no formal command structure had been established before departure.


    So Berthe was right to be packing food, it?s possible it might have run a bit scarce there, no?

    And it?s a very clever way, what Bourin did, throwing us right in the confused middle, no? I like it.

    Likewise in a chapter called The State of Mind of Crusaders, 1095-1300, it is pointed out that there is more than one motivation in the differing people, as Justin said:



    Making a pilgrimage is a penitential, devotional act, requiring a frame of mind which is traditionally at the opposite end of the spectrum from that of a warrior. The intentions of eleventh pilgrims from the arms-bearing classes, who could certainly travel with splendour and panache, had been generally purely peaceful. The crusaders, on the other hand, intended war to be an integral part of the penititential exercise.

    It was officially described as an expression of their love for their Christian brothers and sisters and for their God, and commitment to it was considered to be a true oblation, a sacrificial surrender of self.

    In spite of its often flamboyant trappings, crusading was as much a devotional as a military activity.



    The book points out that Pope Urban II had
    made a revolutionary appeal?He took the idea, which was without precedent and made it intellectually justifiable by associating warfare with pilgrimage to Jerusalem.



    And he also traveled around the south of France and the book says excitement was exactly as Bourin says, again, she did her homework, at an almost unbelievable fever pitch. There are many records of Knights who were unsure, such as Tancred, who found, after the ?call to arms in the service of Christ,??.inflamed ?beyond belief.?

    So it was a BIG BIG thing.

    And here?s perhaps something we don?t know and I don?t know if you want to argue with it or not, but the book explains this further (Robby if you all get to the Crusades in your SoC, you will be an expert!)



    The notion of treating penances as simply the symbolic demonstration of contrition to be undertaken after the sinner has been reconciled through sacramental absolution?the system which operates in the modern Catholic Church?was still undeveloped. IN the closing years of the eleventh century the belief remained that penitential acts could suffice to wash away sin.

    This does much to explain the potent appeal of the First Crusade, which Urban II conceived as an act so expensive, long, and emotionally and physically arduous that it amounted to a ?satisfactolry? penance capable of undoing all the sins which intending crusaders confessed.



    Whether or not we are particularly interested in the history of the eleventh century, since we are reading a book about people GOING on the biggest event of that time, we may find these background explanations helpful.

    I?m going to say?I?m not sure about that question in the heading, actually, what do you think? They more or less HAVE to keep on now, right? The ship has sailed.




    Also am struggling with scanner to get in the heading Dame Carcas and how the town became named Carcassonne, it?s quite inventive and you know, for a non matriarchal society, it?s nice to see how many women played a large part in history,

    MORE a Demain!

    Que pensez- vous de toutes ces choses?

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 20, 2002 - 01:10 pm
    Please let me make an aside from Les Peregrines to quote what I read today in Will Durant's "Life of Greece" about recapturing a language or learning a new one. A German archeologist Henreich Schliemann who excavated the treasures of Priam, learned to speak and write English, French, Dutch, Spanish, Portugese, Italian, Russian, Swedish, Polish Arabic. He said, and I quote:

    "I procured a modern Greek translation of Paul et Virginie, and read it through, comparing every word with its equivalent in the French original. When I finished this task, I knew at least one half of the Greek words the book contained, and after repeating the operation I knew them all, or nearly so, without having lost a single minute by being obliged to use a dictionary"

    C'est trs bien, mais pour le parler, il faut aussi le pratiquer. Ne vous attardez pas trop ˆ chercher les mots dans le dictionnaire, c'est mieux de lire quelques pages et si on ne comprend vraiment pas, de trouver les mots cles dans le dictionnaire.

    J'ai une trs bonne amie qui se propose de venir se joindre ˆ nous ds lundi, elle a lu le premier chapitre des Peregrines. Je n'en dis pas plus long pour le moment, vous verrez.

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    September 20, 2002 - 03:44 pm
    Eloise, how exciting! We look foreard to welcoming your friend on Monday, how interesting about Henreich Schliemann, I very much enjoyed his book on his excavations of Troy, and the other books about him , as well. It's now felt, I believe that he did NOT find "Troy," but his story and that of his wife are quite exciting anyway.

    Il a trouvé quelque chose, c'est bien sur!

    ginny

    Justin
    September 20, 2002 - 04:19 pm
    La celebration de l'anniversaire cinguantime est fini et je suis prte commencer encore. Merci beaucoup pour felicitations. Vous etre tres aimable.

    C'est interesant que le barbier elit saigner le blesse. Pedant le Moyen Age on saignee une malade ajuster les humeurs. Ces humeurs etaint quatre fluides dans le corps qui doivent etre en l'equilibre. Le sang, la bile jaune, la bile noir, et le flegm constituent les fluides quatre.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 20, 2002 - 05:07 pm
    Oui Justin je venais justement pour commenter ˆ ce sujet et dans le livre on dit:

    Mathieu le Barbier avait lave la plaie tumefiee avec de l'huile d'olive et du vin avant d'y appliquer un onguent de sa composition....(Olive oil and wine???)Je vais aussi vous faire une saignee, avais dit le barbier. C'est une bonne faon de degager le cerveau en evacuant le sang vicie et les autres HUMEURS

    Berthe la Hardie devenait maintenant le chef de la bande qu'elle commandait adroitement tout en soignant Garin avec tendresse.

    Does anybody know how old Garin was? I would guess he was around 40, still a very young man by today's standard.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    September 20, 2002 - 05:57 pm
    Forgive me Robby, but I don't like the map of the first crusade shown in the heading. It has too many limitations. While the map shows participation by two groups, one from Germany and one from Clermont, France, it implies that these groups merged at Constantinople.

    The group from Germany was 11,000 strong and supported by ten knights. They wiped out many Jewish villages on the route and were in turn anihilated by the Niceans when they attacked that city. The movements of the German group preceded that of the French group by many months.

    The map shows the group from France moving from Chartres to Rome to Bari and Brindisi and thence to Thessalonika and Constantinople and then on to Acre, Damascus, and Jerusalem.

    The actual route was more circuitous. We are, remember, dealing with four armies. Some came from France, some from Italy, but in general, it is not the route to Brindisi that I am concerned about. The Armies crossed the Adriatic to Albania. They marched across the upper Pelopenesus to Thessalonika and then on to Constantinople. It is at this point where one encounters large divergences. The four Army leaders should have appointed a chief to keep them all together, but they failed in this regard. Each army leader acted independently, hoping to capture land for his own use. They passed Nicaea intact however, when they came to the Cililian Gates one army took the Northern route while three armies went south along the Mediteranean.The southern army went to Tarsus and to Adapar where they split again. The Northern army split off at Marash. Some joining the southern army and some continuing on in search of new land to acquire and stopping at Edessa. The main body continued south to Antioch where they split again. Half took the shore route through Syria and the other took an inland route beyond the mountains to Krak des Chevaliers where they closed in on the great fortress from two sides. The main body without the group at Edessa moved south through Cedars of Lebanon to Beirut and Acre to Jerusalem.

    One can readily see that the route was circuitous and that the map presented by the Metropolitan Museum of Art is an over simplification of the route of the first crusade.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 21, 2002 - 04:11 am
    Justin, pouvez-vous tracer une autre carte avec la route que vous decrivez et nous la transmettre ici? Ce serait interessant de suivre la mme route que les croises de Chartres sur une carte.

    Elo•se

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 21, 2002 - 04:21 am
    D'accord.

    Robby

    Roslyn Stempel
    September 21, 2002 - 07:01 am

    Justin
    September 21, 2002 - 12:28 pm
    Roz: I do not find "choazes" in Le Robert (Micro). S'il vous plait, expliquez vous?

    Ginny
    September 21, 2002 - 01:23 pm


    Roslyn, vous etes une femme des rares mots hahaha I hope that means what I think it means ! hahahaha

    If not, I mean well!

    Well it?s coming more easily for me now (either that or I have no earthly clue what?s being said), 10 pages more down the hatch and I have to say I have de millliers des questions!




    Do you mean to tell me the man is ALIVE?

    How can he be ALIVE?

    He was unconscious, with no pulse? No PULSE?

    Will somebody please explain?




    Justin, would you give some more information on the humors, I always thought that was interesting, the entire concept?




    Will somebody please explain these, not in my dictionary?

  • cendreuse
  • basculer

  • melopee

    Can somebody shed some light on this phrase?

    Ayant chaque soir un rapport a ecrire sur un rouleau de parchemin qu?il avait mission d?adresser a son evque que des l?etape suivante, let pre Ascelin s?etait??.la relve d?une garde qui risquait d?etre eprouvante.

    I?m not sure what?s being said there.

  • what is a grumete

    You know you can just read so far skipping certain words before you get into trouble, what is, for instance, a garbage collector (s?ebrouer) doing in the ship?

    ??

    Does everybody understand the thing about the blood? For that matter does everybody understand the thing about the Carcassonne playing card above? Is that a live pig or a dead one and where?s the blood coming from?

    These are idle questions of an idle mind, not meant for any one person but take one and give it a shot, and let?s see what the others think , too.

    How did anybody live back then, really.

    Ginny
  • Ginny
    September 21, 2002 - 01:38 pm
    OK reading on in the Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusades, we come to some VERY important stuff!

    Remember the crosses CARVED on the skin? Hello? Well guess what?

    Again Bourin has done her homework?

    Note:

  • Crosses and their display:

    Introducing the cross as a visible symbol of the vow of commitment, Urban associated the taking and wearing of it in a highly-charged way with Christ?s precepts?..

    Some men responded hysterically, branding crosses on their bodies, but the sight of the ordinary cloth crosses must have been striking enough.

    An early 12th century sculpture from the priory of Belaval in Lorriane shows a crusader wearing on his chest a cross made from 5cm wide strips of cloth; the cross looks as though it measured 15 by 15 cm. Contingents soon came to distinguish themselves by the style of colour of the crosses they word. The crusader is dressed as a pilgrim, with scrip and staff, and the cloth cross on his chest, which he had to wear until his vow had been fulfilled, is clearly visible. (OIHC)

    Crusaders were expected to wear their crosses on their clothing at all times until they came home with their vows fulfilled; in 1123 the bishops at the First Lateran Council referred to those ?who had taken their crosses off? without departing.

    It would, therefore, have been possible to tell who was a crusader and it was important to do so.




    And there'a more!

    A demain!!

    ginny
  • Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 21, 2002 - 01:38 pm
    Roslyn - Je suis presque positive que vous voulez dire 'L'‰ge de Garin et autre chose' mais de quelle autre chose voulez-vous parler?

    En mentionnant l'‰ge de Garin, je pensais qu'il etait bien jeune pour mourir et laissez ses 4 enfants pour continuer leur plerinage. Pas une minute n'ont-il penser d'abandonner et de rebrousser chemins.(go back home). En ce temps-lˆ les adolescents etaient consideres des adultes et Landry, ˆ 19 ans, avait la maturite d'un jeune de 24 ans aujourd'hui. Les difficultes de la vie les faisaient maturer trs vite et une fille de 15 ans souvent etait dejˆ mariee et enceinte.

    HUMEUR = Larousse, liquide de l'organisme, eg. humeur acqueuse dans les yeux. Liquid in the eyes. BASCULE = Balanoire dont les extremites s'elvent lorsque l'autre s'abaisse. (A swinging motion. I have to see where it to know in what contect it is) MELOPEE = Chant monotone et triste. GRUMETTE n'est pas dans mon Larousse??? CENDREUSE = Qui a l'aspect de la cendre.

    Blood letting was performed for almost anything in those days but here it was because Garin had a head wound, the Barber said it would clear the secretions in his head as Justin explained.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    September 21, 2002 - 03:07 pm
    The ships were crude galleys called dromonds. They felt their way from coast to coast without the aid of a compass or chart. One the chroniclers reports, " The fleet was ready at Eastertide, and they embarked at the port of Brindisi. Among all those ships, we beheld one suddenly break in it's middle, without any cause. Nearly 400 men and women were cast into the water....Only a few survived, and these lost their horses and mules in the waves, with much money." This was reported in an article in National Geographic, december 1936.

    I have not been able to find the chronicler the magazine quotes. Perhaps it will turn up. There must be much more reported by that particular chronicler.

    The Geographic continues with " Perhaps a quarter of a million, perhaps more had taken the oath to make their way from the hamlets of Christendom to Jerusalem. More than 100,000 had passed through Constantinople, as nearly we can judge from the scanty records. When they reached Konia they numbered no more than 60 or 70,000. Only some twenty thousand reached Jerusalem alive.

    One chronicler reports."Whoever heard so many languages in a single army. We were Franks, Flemings, Gauls, Bavarians, Lombards , Normans, Angles, Scots, Italians, Lotharingians, Bretons, Greeks and Armenians.If a Breton spoke to me, I did not know how to answer."

    Justin
    September 21, 2002 - 03:15 pm
    I will be happy to construct a crude map showing the route however, several things stand in the way. I have a scanner, but as yet I have been unable to convert images from the scanner file type (ZIF) to JPEG so you can open the image when you get it. If I can figure that out, I can begin to work on a map.

    Roslyn Stempel
    September 21, 2002 - 04:21 pm
    This was an obvious typo which I thought I had corrected but, alas, the amended version never appeared in the folder. I gave Garin's correct age as shown in the tabulation at the front of my edition. I also commented on something I had missed on my first reading, which Bourin's skillful shift from the naive innocence of her depiction of the three maidens to the sharpness of style with which she described the gossipy conversation getween Gabriel and Icasia and the the way in which despite his seductive manner and pleasing appearance she was telegraphing the precarious condition of his soul, hinting that he was not a veritable croise religieux but a power-hungry matou. History does record that Princess Anne Comnene,daughter of the emperor of Constantinople and author of an account of the first Crusade, was enormously impressed with his beauty and his physical prowess.

    Ros

    Roslyn Stempel
    September 21, 2002 - 04:29 pm
    Now you see it, now you don't -- it must be witchcraft.I corrected my message but the whole thing disappeared, only to pop up again five miinutes later as I was laboriously constructing my apology. . I was trying to pay Bourin a compliment about the way she cleverly shifted styles in Chapter 2. Well, as Rosanna Rosanadanna used to say on SNL, never mind.

    Ros the bewitched

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 21, 2002 - 06:22 pm
    Roslyn - Il n'y a pas d'offense. Souvent je vois de mes erreurs monumentales trop tard pour les corriger et je me dis: Comme je n'aime pas trop les rglements de toute faon, a ne fait rien. Je passe ˆ d'autres choses. Continuez ˆ nous ecrire en franais comme vous le connaissez bien.

    Elo•se

    MmeW
    September 22, 2002 - 08:51 am
    l?‰ge de Garin : 39 ans. Landry avait 15 ans, pas 19 ans, ce qui ne fait que souligner votre propos, Elo•se, que les jeunes de ce temps montraient beaucoup de maturite.

    cendreuse : Je crois qu?on parlait de la face de Garin qui etait p‰le et grise, comme les cendres.

    grumte : J?ai compris une sorte de Ç nightwatchman È because in the middle of the night he calls out Ç All is well, rest in peace. È and then in the morning he wakes them all with the poem/prayer.

    s?ebrouer : blow out while shaking the head (where in the world did you get garbage collector, Ginny ?) After the grumte wakes everyone with the prayer and they respond with Ç Pater Noster, Ave Maria È, they had to get up, face their surprising reality (of being on a boat, I suppose), s?ebrouer. They stretched, shook out their wrinkled clothes, scratched themselves, combed their beards, straightened out their hair?. This was just a description of the boat coming alive in the morning. But, I think s?ebrouer is a good example of a word you could skip and not lose a thing.

    Ayant chaque soir un rapport a ecrire sur un rouleau de parchemin qu?il avait mission d?adresser a son evque que des l?etape suivante, let pre Ascelin s?etait??.la relve d?une garde qui risquait d?etre eprouvante.

    Having each evening a report to write on a roll of parchment that he was supposed to send to his bishop at the next stop, father Ascelin sat by himself for a long moment at one of the tables cleared after the last meal. His work finished, he came back to Garin?s bed, looked at him for a moment, then suggested to Berthe that when she wished it, he would relieve her watch, which risked being overwhelming (to her).

    I also found it interesting that pre Ascelin had a valet. (or did I misinterpret this line ?) :..avant de s?eloigner pour gagner le cadre o son valet avait deroule sa natte? È

    Robby : Et je me demande maintenant -- ou etaient les WC pour les peregrins?

    On a enfin une description des Ç jardines È (qui ne ressemblent pas aux jardins !) ˆ la page 45: Ç siges perces edifies au plus prs de la vide. È on the front tip of the boat. Aprs la prire du matin, j?adore : Ç Les derniers mots de l?invocation ˆ peine prononces, on se precipita aux jardines? È

    Je n?ai pas trouve Ç jardine È dans mon dictionnaire, mais j?interprte selon le context? ‚a donne un nouveau sens ˆ l'expression Ç arroser le jardin(e) È

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 22, 2002 - 12:54 pm
    In the Legend in the heading: The pig was force-fed and when it became bloated they throw it overboard and upon landing, exploded at the foot of the emperor who, discouraged, decided to lift the siege.

    La releve d'une garde qui risquait d'tre eprouvante The changing of a guard which was threatening to be daunting.

    What a description of Flaminia's beautiful eyes: Semees d'une mosa•que de points gris, verts, bleus, dores, roux, ses prunelles, le plus souvent lumineuses, pouvaient aussi varier selon l'heure, la lumire, les reflets de l'eau, la couleur du temps. (Impossible to translate and convey the same message.)

    Notice a few lines down, that 'la desesperence est un terrible peche' and one committed a sin even in dispairing. Can you imagine what stress the crusaders were under spiritually?

    Supplique = petition. Jouer aux osselets = play with knucklebones. (never heard of them)

    Elo•se

    MmeW
    September 22, 2002 - 02:37 pm
    Dame Carcas's strategy was to feed the last of their grain to the pig, hoping to fool the Franks, who thought that the beseiged were running out of food and would soon surrender. When the pig split open and the grain fell out, the Franks, convinced the inhabitants had enough grain even to feed the pigs, were discouraged and gave up.

    "la garde" in the above passage refers to Berthe's watch/care of Garin, which if it were 24/7 would be too much for her, so Ascelin offers to relieve her when she wants.

    I love the sunset described as Ç cette heure dechirante de l'adieu au jour. È And the evening hour: Ç la magie de cette heure vesperale vecue entre ciel et mer...comme un baptme marin et nocturne ˆ la fois.È

    Ala•s speaking of the sea: Ç Elle semble bercer nos grosses nefs ainsi que des ?ufs de P‰ques geants. È Quelle jolie image.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 22, 2002 - 06:28 pm
    ELOISE, I think knucklebones are dice.

    Mal

    MmeW
    September 22, 2002 - 10:29 pm
    Mal, normally I would guess dice, too, but my Petit Larousse defines osselet as each of the little bones taken from the leg or foot of the sheep and with which children played. Since Gauthier is playing "osselets" with his little brother, maybe they are playing a children's game (like jacks without the ball). You remember those simple days before Mattel...

    Justin
    September 23, 2002 - 12:26 am
    Tandis que Garin dort le sommeil du blesse, les autres font passer s'amusent. Brunissen remarqua "Pour eux, rien n'est change." Cependant, Flaminia agenouillee ˆ c™te de sa grand-mre, elle met sa soeur sur ses garde contre le pche de desesprance. Religieux pensee permet on peu independant de pensee.

    Justin
    September 23, 2002 - 01:12 pm
    Brunissen repond l'accusation de desesprance, "ici-bas, qui peut juger une supplique sur une autre? Ici on peut se trouve le principe guident le moyen age la vie. Tout les choses est gouverne ˆ le ciel mais le ciel ne parle jamais.

    Roslyn Stempel
    September 23, 2002 - 01:55 pm
    A` quel page sommes nous? J'arrive `ˆ page 118. Je trouve que j'ai bien gagne de lire deux fois car je note des choses que je laissais «echapper le premier fois. Par exemple il y a plusieurs moments oœ l'affaire, l'action, devient beaucoup plus serieux. L'auteur fait des allusions forts prevenant des evenements.

    Ros

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 23, 2002 - 03:20 pm
    Roslyn - Il y en a qui sont plus avances que d'autres mais si nous nous entretenons de ce qui se passe dans les deux premiers chapitres, nous pourrons bien nous y retrouver.

    Justin - Pour les croises, le ciel parlait par l'entremise du clerge et ils entretiennent leur foi devotement en priant et en se soutenant les uns les autres.

    Les croises etaient propulses par le mme sentiment religieux qui, semble-t-il, etait assez fort pour surmonter toutes les epreuves. Oui, la pensee religieuse au Moyen Ëge ne permettait pas de pensees independantes. N'etaient-ils pas presque tous illettres et l'independance d'esprit ne vient-il pas avec l'education?

    I saw my friend in Montreal today and she is definitely coming soon to join us.

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 23, 2002 - 04:58 pm
    As I was looking for Ancient Greece links I came across where the city of Constantinople where the Peregrines will be spending quite some time and a girl's life will changed forever. I came across this link HERE where we are seeing a map showing a nice view of Constantinople.

    After you see Constantinople, go to the bottom of the page and follow the bright trangle inscribed 'suite' where you will see beautiful pictures of monuments and the hyppodrome where a part of the story takes place.

    Elo•se

    MmeW
    September 23, 2002 - 05:36 pm
    Elo•se, what a beautiful website. Merci beaucoup de l'avoir trouve pour nous. Je l'ai "bookmarque" pour plus tard lorsque j'atteindrai Constantinople dans le livre. Incroyable qu'on s'est servie de ces belles ttes de Meduse comme base pour les colonnes dans la citerne. La mousse verte leur donne un air "sci-fi."

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 25, 2002 - 08:13 am
    BONNE FæTE ROBBY

    Puissiez-vous tre des n™tres encore pour des annees ˆ venir

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 25, 2002 - 10:56 am
    "Everything about this city, was magnificent, even its walls". Il se dit de Constantinople ˆ cette epoque.

    LA VOICI ICI

    Cependant avant d'arriver lˆ, n'oublions pas que Garin se meurt a bord de la nef et que les membres de sa famille se desolent de la perte de ce fils tant aime et de ce pre irrenplaable. Tous, ils prient avec une ferveur dechirante pour combler le vide que cette perte creusera dans le coeur de toute la famille reunie autour de lui pour recevoir son dernier souffle.

    Landry dit: "...Landry tentait d'apporter un peu d'ordre dans le chaos qui lui tenait lieu de pensees. Ni la beaute de la lumire d'une mer printanire, ni la vue d'une jeune femme qui allaitait son enfant, juste sous ses yeux, au pied de l'echelle qu'on empruntait pour atteindre le poste d'observation o il s'etait installe, ne le detournaient de son obsession."

    He suddenly realizes that he will soon be the head of the clan and doesn't that scare him a bit seeing that he has, at 15, so little experience.

    But Landry shakes his head energeticaly. His grand'mother would never accept him shirking his responsabilities and would, if need be, head the group relunctantly herself but down deep she knows it is a man's job however young her grand'son is.

    Absoute = funeral prayer

    La bonace is not in my Larousse but because of the contect, I imagine it is good weather.

    Elo•se

    MmeW
    September 25, 2002 - 11:15 am
    Selon mon Petit Larousse, bonace = calme de la mer

    Marilou
    September 25, 2002 - 12:38 pm
    Bonjour- Je me prenomme Marilou et j'aimerais participer ˆ ce groupe de discussion. J'ai entendu parler de ce site par une amie. Je vous lis regulirement et si vous n'y voyez pas d'inconvenient , j'ajouterais parfois mon petit grain de sel...Je dois vous informer que j'ai 46 ans alors si cet etat de chose cause un problme vous n'avez qu'a me le dire.

    I will try to write sometimes in english, I am not very good but I will try. Have a good day.

    Marilou

    Ginny
    September 25, 2002 - 01:20 pm
    Bienvenue, Marilou! We are delighted to see you here, I was just reading the posts to try to catch up and saw you! Welcome mille fois, bienvenue!

    Vouz avez 46 ans, et notre Sarah Thomas, qui est un juge, est 42, l'age, cela n'a pas d'importance ici dans notre Books!

    (I hope that said Age is of no importance here in the Books, welcome!) hahaah I'm the worst and will soon be back with more comments, hopefully.

    ginny

    Justin
    September 25, 2002 - 01:37 pm
    Je pense grandmre Berthe la Hardie et le notaire pre Acelan avisent Landry, le garcon, qui doit etre un homme rapidement. L'enterrment au mer est desenivre mais necessaire. Le patron sait comment necessaire. Il dit, c'est l'ame qu'est importante. Pas le corps.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 25, 2002 - 01:42 pm
    Et j'ai 39 ans.

    Robby

    MmeW
    September 25, 2002 - 02:55 pm
    En esprit, Robby, en esprit...

    Ginny
    September 25, 2002 - 03:06 pm
    Let's all welcome our newest member here, Marilou! (And Happy Birthday, Mr. 39!)

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 25, 2002 - 03:08 pm
    BIENVENUE CHéRE MARILOU

    Je t'attendais avec impatience. Nous sommes un groupe de tous ‰ge ici comme tu peux le voir, il y en a un mme qui pretend n'avoir que 39 ans, mais si tu clique sur son nom, tu sauras bien la verite. En plus c'est son anniversaire de naissance aujourd'hui alors il se pernet des menteries.

    C'est un plaisir d'avoir Marilou avec nous, elle est une trs bonne amie et elle vit ˆ Montreal. Enfin je ne suis plus la seule Canadienne franaise sur SeniorNet.

    Elo•se

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 25, 2002 - 03:16 pm
    Cela n'est pas juste, Eloise. Vous l'avez donne un secret!!

    Robby

    Justin
    September 25, 2002 - 10:12 pm
    Bienvenue, Marilou. Nous avons nous engageons avec des autres ˆ Montreal heureusement si je pense vous etres tres bienvenue.

    Marilou
    September 26, 2002 - 07:33 am
    Merci pour votre accueil. Vous avez l'air d'un groupe de joyeux lurons! Je suis heureuse de venir renforcir les rangs des canadiennes franaises...Just watch us! M. Robby, it does'nt matter how old you are, I wish you had had a good day yesterday. Glad to meet all of you. Le choix du livre Ç Les perigrines È est un defi interessant, parce qu'il est bien ecrit, qu'il nous plonge dans une autre epoque avec un vocabulaire qui n'est pas simple mme pour les gens dont la langue maternelle est le franais. Je lve mon chapeau aux Ç anglophones È qui relve le defi.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 26, 2002 - 07:38 am
    Marilou:--Merci pour vos meilleurs voeux pour mon anniversaire. Vous etes tres gentille.

    Robby

    Justin
    September 26, 2002 - 02:22 pm
    La mort de M.Garin poses une de grand questions de la vie. Berthe le Hardie dit, " Pourquoi le Seigneur a-t-Il voulu rapeller si tot mon pauvre enfant aupres de Lui?

    Pere Acelin, il repond, "connaissons-nous les desseins de Dieu. Dans l'Ancien Testament il est dit,'Mes pensees ne sont pas vos pensees, mes projets ne sont pas vos projets. Nous ne savons rien. Quel pre Acelin dit est que il n'y a pas la reponse religieux. En realite, M. Garin est mort parce-que il fait quelquechose sot. Il mit son tete dans l'endroit dangeroux. Je suppose il'n'est pas gentil parler de la mort dans si une maniere mais il est une reponse vraiment. Votre garcon ne mort pas en vain. Il ne vous dit pas faire quel il a fait.

    Ginny
    September 26, 2002 - 04:31 pm
    Bonjour, Mes Amis, and thank you all for all your wonderful contributions!

    Marilou, you have endeared yourself to me forever with these words and I think I?ll put them in the heading!
    ?avec un vocabulaire qui n'est pas simple mme pour les gens dont la langue maternelle est le franais


    Many many thanks for saying that and your tip of the hat, you get one from me, too, we?re already a society of Admiration here ! Bienvenue mille fois encore! Hahahaha

    What fun this is! You and Eloise and Mssuzzy?s fluency in English puts us all to shame, isn?t this a fun International Experiment!




    Maintenant, nous sommes en les vendanges ici in South Carolina. Cette annee le vendange est insignifiant, et il faut qu?il diviser entre six cent families. C?est foule ici.




    I got so excited last night I finished Chapter 2, so am up on Part I and ready to launch a question a minute, but wait! Some of you have brought up some super points!

    (Just a note on questions in general ?)

    Everybody has different theories of questions? I like to put a lot of questions in the heading in the hope that ONE will spark YOUR interest and we can discuss among ourselves your opinions and offer some of our own. . I appreciate you all talking over the events and theories about the book together!

    Justin has brought up two important points here one earlier on Landry and Eloise has explained his thinking, and Ros also talked about Bourin?s skill which she notes on this second time around, I liked that, and in this section we see very skillfully written the death and burial at sea of Garin.

    Naturally the family considers if they should return and naturally everybody has a reason why or why not?

    Justin?s post above raises an excellent question, it was Garin?s own mistake (or was it) which caused his death? Or is it part of a grand scheme? Why do you think the author did such a drastic thing so early in the plot? What?s it supposed to show?

    How could they go back? Consider how far they?ve been? Consider what would happen if they tried to go back? Are there huge numbers of people going BACK? How many gorgeous teen age girls and who to protect them? Not exactly the same numbers they now enjoy?

    And what of the horses? Looks to me like nobody has visited them at all?

    At all?

    How long a period of time are we talking about? Are there grooms who feed and water them? Clean up after them (yes I caught the words for the by products).

    And what of Garin?s last words? ?Jerusalem. O Jerusalem.? What do YOU think Bourin meant by having him say those words only? ARE those his last words?

    Mme, I have no idea how I got garbage collector! Hahahaha I looked it UP and there it was, and hey! I?ve now adopted a savoir faire about the reading, I don?t look every other word up (and it works) but if I can?t make heads or tails out of the thing I do, ET VOILA! Le collecteur de garbage! Hahahahaha

    So you KNOW that made sense?

    Hahahaha




    IN Part I, Chapters 1 and 2, our little idealistic band has had a lot happen to it, I do like the way Bourin keeps letting us know in a subtle manner that this is not a Disneyland ride here, Garin is dead and then Landry is set upon!

    By whom?

    Who are these awful people in the hold there?

    I thought the entire ship was mourning Garin?

    I thought the entire ship was full of those making a sacred pilgrimage?

    Who are these people? Why are they so evil?

    What is this horror the pilgrims have about burial at sea? Note that Berthe will not even attend it, calls it ?abominable immersion.?

    This seems strange to me, does it to anybody else?

    ginny

    Ginny
    September 26, 2002 - 04:52 pm
    OH and Eloise I forgot to thank you for that WONDERFUL site, you will die laughing but I never realized that Constantinople was modern Istanbul till I read the site (and was thrilled that I COULD read it, this experience is sharpening our minds!) hahah Whether or not we realize it! Heck, it it took me forever to realize that Persia was Iran.

    I was actually supposed to go to Istanbul this summer and Egypt and instead went to Rome, Paris, Provence and Bruges, I think I did OK! hahahaha

    The matter of Garin's last words is interesing, n'est-ce pas? In the book How We Die, the doctor who wrote it sort of discourages the death bed "last words" experience, preferring instead to talk of the body shutting down, etc., and saying in essence that goodbyes should be done a lot in advance. Have you all read it, it's quite striking. Yet we have more than enough stories of moving last words to make us pause. What do you suppose Garin meant?

    ginny

    MmeW
    September 26, 2002 - 08:07 pm
    O Jerusalem is such a common phrase from the Bible (and it would sound the same in Latin or French or English): Collins & Lapierre called their book about the creation of the state of Israel "O Jerusalem" and I swear Piaf or someone has a song called "O Jerusalem." Therefore I would assume that it would be almost like a catchword for the pilgrims.

    "If I forget you, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither! Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I do not remember you, if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy!" Psalm 137:5

    Justin
    September 26, 2002 - 10:51 pm
    MmeW: quoting from psalm 137: 5 is a fine thing to do. When I want a psalm that fits a topic I'm thinking about, I thumb through them but am rarely able to recall one that fits out of hand. You have my admiration.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 27, 2002 - 06:08 am
    Justin - In my estimation there were about 100 people on board and everybody didn?t know Garin because those who boarded the ship were not all from the same area or were necessarily neighbors back home and didn't feel the loss that the family felt. Because the crusaders were in such huge numbers, I am often wondering how they could find food along the way except by pillage. It seems to be an impossible a venture unless it is for a cause where everything was permitted and pardoned. I don?t know because I am not living in that century.

    I don?t think that Garin?s accident with the horses was part of a grand scheme in an way. His accident happened as I understand it, that he was under or close to the horse because he was putting straw between the horse?s raw skin and the strap holding it up partly aloft (I can?t find the excerpt).

    This summer while I was driving, I took the decision to pass a truck on a three-lane highway and while passing I realize that the truck is running at the same speed as I am. There is a car coming. Can I slow down? brake hard? or hope that I won?t be hit head-on. It is a miracle that I was not killed. But if an accident had happened, yes, it was my fault, but I could not foresee that the truck driver would accelerate instead of letting me pass him. An accident is nobody?s fault.

    So I don?t think that Garin was stupid, he could not have know that the trumpets would blow and scare the horse. I think that the author killed the character to make the story more dramatic. In life or in novels, nothing goes according to plan or reason. Something always comes in and disturbs the reasonable thing that is supposed to happen but does not.

    Please Ginny, I don?t expect to be thanked for anything I do here, after all I am co leader am I not? You do much more than I in analyzing the book but I am learning.

    Sharon told me that she is interested in joining us as soon as she receives the book that I will mail her today. I am so happy to have such an interesting group to discuss Les Peregrines with..

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 27, 2002 - 08:11 am
    Dans ce lien, nous pouvons voir un apperu de l'impact qu'a eu les Croisades sur le peuple franais dans ce musee ˆ Versailles en France ou est situe le fameux ch‰teau du mme nom. Au XIXme sicle, le roi Louis-Philippe decide de creer ˆ Versailles un musee illustrant l?histoire de France. Cinq vastes salles du ch‰teau racontent l?aventure des Croises en Orient. Louis-Philippe commande aux peintres de son epoque de nombreux tableaux. Ces artistes representent des evenements auxquels ils n?ont pas assiste. Ils se sont informes et documentes pour conna”tre les faits. Avec eux, partons ˆ la decouverte de la Premire croisade et de Godefroy de Bouillon. et nous verrons que Godefroy de Bouillon aura une grande part dans le la vie d'une des jeunes filles de Garin.

    VOIR ICI

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 27, 2002 - 01:36 pm
    Voici un interessante citation qui explique l'ardeur des Plerins qui sont partis par milliers de leur pays pour delivrer Jerusalem.

    "Anne Comnne et l'origine de la croisade Or voici dans ses grandes lignes la cause d'un pareil mouvement de population. Un Celte, nomme Pierre et surnomme Pierre ˆ la Coule

    (1), etait parti venerer le Saint-Sepulcre; aprs avoir souffert bien des mauvais traitements de la part des Turcs et des Sarrasins qui ravageaient l'Asie entire, il ne revint qu'ˆ grand-peine dans son pays. Comme il ne pouvait supporter d'avoir manque son but, il decida de recommencer le mme voyage. Mais il comprit qu'il ne devait pas refaire seul la route du Saint-Sepulcre de peur que pire mesaventure ne lui arriv‰t et il conut un parti habile. C'etait de prcher dans tous les pays des Latins: " Une voix divine m'ordonne de proclamer devant tous les comtes de France, qu'ils doivent chacun quitter leurs foyers pour s'en aller venerer le Saint-Sepulcre, et t‰cher avec toutes leurs forces comme avec toute leur ardeur de delivrer Jerusalem de la main des Agarnes

    (2). " Il reussit effectivement. Comme s'il avait fait entendre une voix divine au coeur de chacun, il parvint en effet ˆ rassembler de partout les Celtes qui arrivaient les uns ˆ la suite des autres avec des armes, des chevaux et le reste de l'equipement militaire. Ces hommes avaient tant d'ardeur et d'elan que tous les chemins en furent couverts; ces soldats celtes etaient accompagnes d'une multitude de gens sans armes, plus nombreux que les grains de sable et que les etoiles, portant des palmes et des croix sur leurs epaules: femmes et enfants qui laissaient leur pays. A les voir on aurait dit des fleuves qui confluaient de partout; par la Dacie generalement, ils se dirigeaient vers nous avec toute leur armee."


    (1). Pierre l'Ermite (2). Un autre nom pour designer les Turcs. Traduction prise dans Duc de Castrie, La conqute de la Terre sainte par les croises, Paris, Albin, 1973, pp. 209-210.

    Justin
    September 27, 2002 - 01:49 pm
    D'accord, Eloise. Burin a choisi tuer Garin pour le bon de l'histoire. Je suis sur nous apprendrons plus tard la raison.

    Pre Ascelin dit Berthe, "Songer ˆ Moise. Il lien Garin ˆ la figure grande de l'Exodus-Moise et la meme temps lien Berthe, sa famille, et les crusades ˆ Moise et les Juifs. Plus tard ˆ Jerusalem ils tueront les Juifs avec les Saracens.

    Justin
    September 29, 2002 - 03:43 pm
    Pourquoi lie M. Garin ˆ Mo•se? M.Garin mort sur une pelerinage ˆ la Terre Sainte et avant entrant la Terre Sainte. Mo•se aussi. Le groupe lui accompagnant continua seule vaincre la Terre Sainte. Mo•se aussi. Mo•se etait sur une mission saint. M. Garin aussi. Les semblables sont nombreuses.

    Ginny
    September 29, 2002 - 03:51 pm
    Ah, Justin, but I thought Moses was being punished and was only allowed to view the Promised Land but not to enter it? Garin didn't get to view? What was he being punished for?

    The permutations of whether or not Garin was at fault or it was part of some grand design are endless, and possibly depend upon a person's own thoughts of religion, etc., it's quite a dramatic turn of events this early in the plot, to me.

    I'm fascinated by the burial at sea thing, why did they consider it an awful thing? Even his own mother did not wish to attend, I can't imagine that. Can you?

    I'm struck by the number of persons sitting by the bedside and the community that seemed to exist on ship, it was quite well done again, and loved your points, Eloise (yes you sure ARE the Co DL!! You are THE DL as far as I'm concerned, am holding on with my scratchy finger tips here hahahaah) on his going down to the horse, putting straw on the wound area.

    More anon, have found some super stuff, I personally thought that Landry's decision to go tend the horses, when he himself did not want to ever set eyes on them again (or that one which killed his father) was a wonderful moment of coming of age, it was quite well done and I was quite taken with it.

    Horses which have, even inadvertently, killed or hurt their owners have not always fared well in history, and these people were not of our modern sensibilities as concerns animals (tho Garin seems particularly sensitive)...I think that showed a lot of maturity in the young man and still don't understand why he was attacked or who attacked him, really.

    As one of the other passengers remarked, seemed particularly unfair with his father so recently deceased.

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 29, 2002 - 05:33 pm
    Landry says: "Tout ce que je sais, c'est que notre pre tenait ˆ s'occuper en personne de nos montures. J'entends faire la mme chose que lui."

    He indicates here that he intends to tend to the horses himself like his father did. Half-way down the ladder to the hold, he is: "assailli par des relents de crottin, d'urine, d'echauffement, qui le suffoquait." Meaning his nostrils were being assaulted by the stench of manure, urine. Down below he found "mendiants de profession", (professional beggars) "filous," (criminals) "vagabonds," pardoned prisoners, "histrions? "faux plerins," "ivrognes" (drunkards).

    Landry walks in on them clean a well nourished, and is attacked by vile low class bums who throw manure at him. They were envious of him in my estimation and just attacked him like they would do in the inner cities of America when innocent people go peacefully.

    The bums didn't need a reason, the drunkard started the brawl and others ganged up on him. All this was taking place where the horses were kept and where these bums lived during the crossing. Lets not forget that crossing the sea at that point didn't take long if there was wind.

    The 'scribe' who came down to rescue Landry said: "il n'y a pas de que de pieux plerins sur cette nave" there are not only pious pilgrims on this ship. Some of those are brigands especially when they are drunk.

    En aucun temps je n'ai cru que Garin avait ete puni pour quoi que ce soit ici. Il a tout simplement ete victime d'un accident qui lui a cožte la vie, mais ce n'est probablement pas l'avis de tout le monde.

    Une dernire fois, Berthe et ses deux petites filles ont regarde du c™te o leur pre avait ete immerge "dans quelque abime bleute o venait mourir la lumire du jour." Une comparaison poetique entre la mort de Garin avec la tombee du jour.

    Berthe nous fait savoir que son mal de ventre sera une autre source d'inquietude pour le groupe de plerin. L'auteur nous averti que cela causera bien du soucis ˆ tout le monde une fois arrive ˆ Constantinople.

    Elo•se

    MmeW
    September 29, 2002 - 07:32 pm
    Ginny, I think the reason that Berthe is so upset about the burial at sea is that church cemetary ground is consecrated ground, so the burial at sea was just like throwing Garin in the trash. Plus there would be no grave to visit.

    Justin
    September 29, 2002 - 10:34 pm
    MmeW: I concur. In addition to the features you mention there is also the immediate finality, the complete disappearance of the body in it's canvas bag in a matter of seconds and the thought that the fish will eat the remains. I have experienced several multiple burials at sea. They were all quick and efficient. I didn't think much about the burials at sea at the time because we were also puting bodies in large holes dug in the sand by bulldozers just to get them out of the sun and underground in a hurry. When one dies or is killed when young the immediate finality of the thing can be shocking unless one has very many pressing things to do at the same time. It is only later, that one remembers things and is sad about loss. I never envied the burial squad it's job nor would I have liked to be a piper among the sideboys in a burial at sea. When watching, it is then that one remembers and the lonliness begins.

    Justin
    September 29, 2002 - 10:58 pm
    Pre Ascelin demande, apres le mort de M.Garin, "comptez-vous poursuivre ce plerinage"? Pourquoi "comptez"? Est ce que veut dire le mot aussi veut dire?

    Justin
    September 29, 2002 - 11:13 pm
    Ici J'ai ete parle ˆ M. Garin nourri les poissons quand Berthe dit," Mon fils, du haut du ciel o il nous voit." Qu'est-ce-que je sait?

    MmeW
    September 29, 2002 - 11:23 pm
    Justin, vous avez raison: la finalite tellment subite de l'enterrement dans le mer a dž boulverser Berthe.

    "Comptez" veut dire aussi "to intend to." Qu'est-ce que vous comptez faire? What do you intend to do?

    J'aime bien l'emploi du mot "ici-bas," que j'ai rencontre plusieurs fois dans le livre. Il est tellement biblique: "here-below."

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 30, 2002 - 04:05 am
    Justin - Si je me souviens bien, vous etiez au service de la marine lors de la dernire guerre, et vous dites: "I never envied the burial squad its job nor would I have liked to be a piper among the sideboys in a burial at sea." Il me semble que vous avez en avez ete souvent temoin et que durant la guerre, beaucoup d'hommes meurent.

    Je ne pouvais mme pas m'imaginer ce que pouvait tre un combat naval, alors que nous avions peu de nouvelles de la guerre. Le guerre ne nous a presque pas touches ici ˆ Montreal, ni dans notre famille, ni dans la ville si ce n'est qu'il n'y avait pas beaucoup de garons que nous pouvions frequenter.

    MmeW - Oui c'est ce que je pense aussi, en mer, le corps disparait bien vite et mme le defunt sera vite oublie avec les problmes qui vont bient™t surgir. Ne pensez-vous pas que l'auteur s'est servie justement de a pour que les lecteurs puissent se concentrer sur la vie des jeunes qui commenceront leur vie d'adulte avec un lourd fardeau ˆ porter et qu'ils seront forces de devenir adultes avant le temps avec toutes les responsabilites que cela implique?

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 30, 2002 - 09:38 am
    ART MEDIEVAL

    Des images saisissantes qui situe bien l'epoque medievale decrite par plusieurs artistes du temps et qui sont encore visibles dans les eglises et les monuments en France et ailleurs aussi je crois. Il faut se rendre dans les liens pour bien toutes les voir.

    Je crois que ce site est en anglais aussi.

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    September 30, 2002 - 01:50 pm
    Je me demandais si les croises utilisaient de l'argent pour payer leurs achats "en ville" et j'ai trouve accidentellement ce site sur la monnaie ancienne.

    =====ANCIENT COINS======

    Ginny
    October 1, 2002 - 07:05 am
    What wonderful contributions you all have made, and Eloise, that one on coins kept me spellbound! They are all SOLD! That seems unfair, that one with Tiberius especially interesting, but way down at the bottom of the page, the Knights caught my eye and look look look!!!





    Here is some of the terrific write up of this one coin, it just blew me AWAY! LOOK Jerusalem right on the coin and two Knights, talk about Extremely RARE!


    10C150 KNIGHTS OF THE TEMPLE
    Lead 34mm (41.39gm)
    Twelfth to thirteenth century A.D.
    Two knights galloping left / Temple at Jerusalem. Zacos collection, Part II, Spink, London, 25 May 1999, lot 156, this piece.
    The Order of Knights Templar was founded in Jerusalem in 1120 to protect pilgrims on their way to and from the Holy Land. It later claimed a mandate to fight all infidels, and thus played a leading role in the Crusades. "Temples" (Templar lodges) sprang up throughout Europe, where they served as banks, counting heads of state among their depositors (and debtors). When the Muslims recaptured the Holy Land in 1187, the Templars lost their founding purpose. In 1312 the order was suppressed amid politically motivated charges of heresy, perversion, and dishonest business practices. The seal depicts the original "Temple" in Jerusalem, the former al-Aqsa mosque where the founding members of the order settled in 1118. Extremely rare and of great historical interest.
    Extremely Fine $2,850






    Wow wow wow, WOW!!!

    More!!! More on your posts above, lots o customers there may be a pause here....but hang on....

    Marilou
    October 1, 2002 - 02:04 pm
    -Why do you think the author did such a drastic thing so early in the plot? What?s it supposed to show? asked Ginny _ I think the author wanted to show the life, just the life in the middle-age. It was a tough period. Ë cette epoque les gens Ç tombaient comme des mouchesÈ pour toutes sortes de raisons, un coup de sabot, une grippe, la peste, ou encore ils se faisaient occire par des brigands ...Ne pas en faire mourir un, aurait releve de la science-fiction et d'aprs moi, on a pas fini d'en voir mourir, mais je suis certaine qu'il y aura aussi des histoires d'amour, c'est la vie a aussi! Cependant,on leur a demande d'aller sauver Jerusalem en echange de la redemption de leurs fautes. " Il n'y a qu'une seule histoire et elle se repte inlassablement " (je ne sais plus qui a dit cela mais je suis d'accord avec cette personne) donc une bataille, une grande bataille ou s'affrontent les bons contre les mechants...mais qui sont les bons et qui sont les mechants?? Dans ce livre les chretiens pensent qu'ils sont les bons, de l'autre c™te les musulmans pensent que se sont eux les bons...Entre le moyen-‰ge et 2002 les choses ont-elles changees tant que a? Je m'excuse car je m' eloigne du roman que nous discutons, je pense plus vite que j'ecris et quelques fois mes pensees m'amnent loin, trop loin. Il est vraiment interessant ce livre, il y a tant de chose ˆ dire. Je m'arrte ici et je reviendrai bient™t.

    Marilou.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 1, 2002 - 05:44 pm
    Marilou,

    "I think the author wanted to show the life, just the life in the middle-age." Yes it was a tough period in those days. Life was cheap, But don't you think that even if life was cheap people felt, deeply felt the pain of losing a loved one?

    "mais qui sont les bons et qui sont les mechants?" Sommes-nous les bons alors que les Musulmans et les Juifs qui aussi ont ete persecutes durant les croisades, sont-ils les mechants?

    Au dernier paragraphe du chapitre 2, Brunissen contemplait la mer tristement en pensant au fosse qui se creusait entre les deux hommes qu'elle aimait, son pre, mort et son fiance reste ˆ Chartres et dans un geste symbolique, elle jette ˆ la mer le chapelet en ivoire que son pre lui avait donne jadis. Lorsque le chapelet a disparu, une autre page a tourne, un autre chapitre de sa vie commencera o elle donnera tout son coeur.

    Elo•se

    MmeW
    October 1, 2002 - 07:08 pm
    I think of something I saw recently about a novel being inciting incident, crisis, crisis, crisis, climax, denouement. (Darned if I remember where I saw this.) But I think in a way the death of Garin is the inciting incident. Up till then they were proceeding in a regulated way on the crusade and suddenly everything was different for this family. Their response to this "change in plans" will "mettre en relief la famille" and propel the novel forward to more crises.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 2, 2002 - 04:33 am
    This morning all of a sudden everything is centered in this discussion. I mean everything even to the last "Post My Message" button.

    Could it be because of the box VISIT THE BOOKIES BIRTHDAY PARTY? I wonder. Perhaps Ginny could say, or is it only on my computer?

    Do visit the BOOKIES BIRTHDAY PARTY too my friends.

    Elo•se

    MmeW
    October 2, 2002 - 08:43 am
    I saw that last night, Elo•se, but things are back to normal here now (for me).

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2002 - 05:38 pm
    This morning I told Ginny about LofG and Les Peregrines being centered and I believe she fixed both of them.

    Robby

    Justin
    October 2, 2002 - 11:14 pm
    Nous visitons l'opulence de Constantinople dans le livre deux. La maison nos amis visitent est precedee d'un vestibule dalle de marbre et une immense pice de reception reservee aux hommes. Nous faisons encore. Une pice reservee aux hommes. Je suis desole, Mesdames et medmoiselles.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 3, 2002 - 03:50 am
    HERE you will see Early Medieval Painting. When people didn't know how to read, painting replaced books to transmit messages from those in power, in the case of Les Peregrines, the Pope and the King.

    Elo•se

    Roslyn Stempel
    October 3, 2002 - 11:41 am
    Justin, faut-il toujours avoir honte a cause des regles d'une epoque passee? Comme quelque poete a dit, "Que le passe mort enterre ses propres morts," et que nous vivions dans le present, heureux qu'il y a beaucoup d'hommes galants comme vous qui pensent a l'egalite des sexes.

    Ros

    Marilou
    October 3, 2002 - 01:54 pm
    Ne soyez pas desole M.Justin, les appartements des dames sont souvent luxueuses mais secrtes et seules les femmes choisissent qui peut avoir le privilge d'y entrer... Marilou

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 3, 2002 - 04:05 pm
    Voila une vraie franaise. Au cas ou vous aimeriez savoir pourquoi Marilou met M. devant le prenom, c'est qu'ici lorsque nous ne connaissons pas bien un homme, nous l'appelons toujours Monsieur pour commencer, donc, M. Justin, M. Robby et lorsqu'on supprime Monsieur, c'est parce que nous sommes devenus plus familier. N'est-ce-pas Marilou?

    Justin - Je me regale en lisant comment vivaient les nobles au Moyen Age ˆ Constantinople et de la description des demeures somptueuses

    Nous verrons dans ce nouveau chapitre une femme trs belle, qui ne sera pas contente de voir arriver les croises ˆ sa porte et elle leur fera peut-tre la vie dure. Saura-t-elle se mesurer ˆ la douceur et ˆ la beaute des trois jeunes filles?

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    October 3, 2002 - 07:08 pm
    Once again, bringing up the rear but with hopes of much more to come. I see we?re now in Part II Chapter I and I look forward to enjoying the richness of our surroundings with you all, it does feel like a Pilgrimage, doesn?t it, and maybe it is.

    Justin, what a poignant post about burial at sea, it made the whole thing seem more real , somehow, and Mme good point on the lack of a place to visit and the consecrated ground, I think you both are right. Also the sack could not have helped matters and I suppose they were not prepared to build a coffin, and it was too far from home for Berthe to probably ever see it again.

    I have a feeling they are all not coming home, I don?t know why.




    Marilou, great point about how the author is showing us that the time period was so difficult, I think she?s doing a better job than Michael Crichton did in Timeline, so far. It?s hard for us to imagine what it was like, and I think she?s doing a good job by presenting the every day things we would think about.

    I loved this:



    Dans ce livre les chretiens pensent qi'ils sont les bons, de l?autre cote les musulmans pensent que se seront eux les bons. Entre le moyen age et 2002 les chocs on0-elles changent tant que a ?



    I think we ought to consider that, actually ? What do you all think?

    Eloise, you said, ?Lorsque le chapelet a disparu, une autre page a tourne, un autre chapitre de sa vie commencera ou elle donnera tout son c?ur.

    I don?t understand what was symbolized by her throwing her rosary into the sea ?

    Is she giving up the religious aspect of her quest?

    Does it mean that she is angry that so many things have gone wrong?

    I think that?s a strange thing to give up at THAT point?




    Mme!!! Mme!@



    Inciting incident
    Crisis
    Crisis
    Crisis
    Climax
    Denouement




    I LOVE that! So you think the Inciting incident was Garin?s death? Super super. We have to keep this handy, PLEASE try to find out where you saw that?

    What do the rest of you think was the inciting incident in the story?

    Wouldn?t the inciting incident be the Crusade? Garin?s death the first crisis? Are we only allowed two more?

    I love that, what a novel thing.




    Eloise, yes, Robby alerted me on my way out of town and I fixed the one in his discussion but not here, our Tech Teams came in and fixed the box as you surmised which had an open tag, causing the centering.




    Eloise mentions medieval painting and here I believe we?re getting into Justin?s specialty and I hope to hear more. Eloise mentions many of them couldn?t read and we have seen so many examples of religious art intended to teach the scriptures by picture, it?s stunning.

    I wandered once into the?Justin is it the Accademia in Venice? What an experience! You just wander, dazed thru room after room of masterpieces, and emerge for air in a huge room surrounded by giant canvases with benches in the middle of it. It was the Ursula Cycle by Vittorio Carpaccio and I have not been the same, sense. Here in this cycle the ?I think 8 huge gigantic pictures were arranged (but not painted) in the order of the story of St. Ursula taken from the Golden Legend Ros once recommended to me, it?s quite something.

    You move from painting to painting and the audio tape tells you what?s happening but you don?t need it, when you get to the last painting, the Martyrdom, you are just struck dumb. I kept staring at the painting, it?s unbelievable. The figures are huge, dominating, all around St. Ursula people are falling and dying, but she is serene even in the face of an archer and a swordsman drawing his sword. You can tell the swordsman does not want to but he will. Did he MOVE? It?s so real, is he hesitating? Did he put it back? The archer, didn?t he move a little bit, your eyes run back and forth, I just could not move.

    I can?t imagine the impact on those in medieval times, but it sure blew me away.




    Earlier when Eloise was explaining those in the bowels of the ship, she quoted quite an assembly of characters including the ?histrions? and the ?faux plerins.?

    Now that false pilgrim stopped me in my tracks. WHAT is a false pilgrim and why would the author describe one as such? I find that delicious, did it strike any of you, it?s droll, n?est-ce pas? I?m enjoying the very French flavor of our experience!

    Even IF I am behind in the reading, who is well into Part II Chapter I?

    ginny

    Justin
    October 3, 2002 - 07:25 pm
    National Geographique ce mois decri Istambul l'aujourdui. Il y'a les cartes geographiques et les tableaux nous aurions examine. Si quelq'un peut scan et expose les images, je serai reconnaissant.

    Justin
    October 3, 2002 - 11:50 pm
    Ginger: A cofin would be inappropriate. The thing would float. A canvas sack sewn and weighted by a ship's sailmaker is the approved method.

    The Life of St. Ursula by Carpaccio is at the Academia and it is a stirring narrative cycle. Carpaccio did several cyles. Ursula was the first and his work improves greatly as he progressed through St. George and St. Jerome. The Legend of the Cross is also worth seeing. These works are also in Venice. The nice thing about the Ursula cycle is that it is intact. Many of Carpaccio's cycles have been dispersed.

    Images of Venice serve as background in Carpaccio's cycles and in some cases one can find the painted locations. The details of his works are just as interesting as the main iconography. As I remember the legend, the Huns got the virgins and the bowman got Ursula when she turned down the chief Hun.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 4, 2002 - 01:10 am
    Ginny - I still have a problem with the font in here, in S of C and in the French discussions. This problem is a different one than the centering. The first paragraph of any post is in large font, and the font after the first one is normal. It happened right after the centering was fixed. Is there anything that can be done?

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    October 4, 2002 - 03:30 am
    Sorry for the typos in the French last night, my spellchecker in Word alternates between French and English and apparently did not like qu'ils and bons!

    Eloise, the Webmaster is changing some settings on the site so people are reporting the font changes and some see little boxes to the left of their names, those are normal, they'll get it fixed, they are just experimenting.

    Justin, thank you for that background, and for the national Geographic information, I was excited to see Egypt on the cover since we're going to DC on our Bookfest to take part in the National Book Festival and we have tickets to the new Egypt exhibit and they say it should not be missed!

    I wish I knew more about art! Can you tell us what importance painters had and why in the early middle ages? (hopefully that's not too stupid a question).

    ginny

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 4, 2002 - 03:32 am
    That's interesting. I don't see a problem in SofC.

    Eloise:--What are you doing up and on Senior Net at 4 a.m.?

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 4, 2002 - 04:24 am
    Well it beats doing some homework on psychology doesn't it Robby. Sometimes, not always, I wake up in the middle of the night, get up and do something quiet not wake up the family downstairs, then go back to bed. How come you noticed it? Are you checking on me? HaHaHa.

    Ginny - When I went to Venice in 1976 I didn't see enough museums and we preferred to enjoy the architecture and the canals. My friend still reminds me of the time we sat at a cafe, ordered wine and HAD to drink all of it because she did drink. I was tipsy after 2 glasses. She roared. I could never go back again unfortunately. Please check the two last lines of the second paragraph.

    Justin - Je vais acheter National Geographic de ce mois-ci. Savez-vous qu'il se fait aussi en franais?

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    October 4, 2002 - 04:59 am
    Dadgum Word Spellcheck is determined to help me make a fool of myself hahaahaha

    Sorry, Marilou!!

    HERE it is:



    Dans ce livre les chretiens pensent qu'ils sont les bons, de l'autre c™te les musulmans pensent que se sont eux les bons...Entre le moyen-‰ge et 2002 les choses ont-elles changees tant que a?


    I copied it directly from her that time!

    ginny

    Justin
    October 4, 2002 - 01:54 pm
    Robby: What are you doing up at 3:32am and on seniornet? Eloise comes in at that hour every once in a while. What a bunch of night owls you are .

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 4, 2002 - 01:59 pm
    Just following up to see what you are doing when you think I am not watching.

    Robby

    Sharon E
    October 4, 2002 - 02:09 pm
    Ici Sharon. J'ai reu le livre aujourd'hui gr‰ce ˆ Elšise et je commencerai ˆ le lire tout de suite. Je dois vous attraper (catch up with you?)bient™t. Sharon

    Justin
    October 4, 2002 - 02:18 pm
    Ginny: You always ask relevant questions. Painting in the early middle ages ( about 800 or so) was for an aristocratic audience. It appeared in miniature form in prayer books. In the Eleventh century much painting in fresco served to inform the illiterate about church themes and biblical stories. Manuscript illumination was primarily for missals, for abbey bibles and for psalters which were the religious tools of the wealthy. Sculpture was the primary art form of le Moyen Age.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 4, 2002 - 02:23 pm
    Je m'excuse si je ne suis pas ici tres souvent. Je suis extraordinairement occupe de nos jours. J'ai beaucoup de choses que je fais qui ne sont pas sur le SN. Peut-etre cela changera. Je ne sais pas.

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 4, 2002 - 02:59 pm
    Sharon - Vous tes la bienvenue. Je suis contente de vous savoir des n™tres et que vous avez reu le livre. Si quelqu'un d'autre voudrais en avoir une copie, il me fera plaisir de vous le procurer.

    Au premier paragraphe de ce chapitre, nous sommes transportes dans un autre monde, un monde plut™t oriental par la richesse des ornements, des fresques, des marbres des tissus de soie brodes ce qui nous offrira un contraste par rapport ˆ la misre que les croises ont vecue avant d'arriver ˆ Constantinople.

    Triclinos ou Triclinium (antique) dans le Larousse est "un lit ˆ trois places que les Romains utilisaient pour manger, ou salle ˆ manger ˆ trois lits de la maison romaine

    Gynecee - Larousse "Appartement reserve aux femmes"

    En jetant son chapelet dans l'eau, Brunissen ne faisait qu'un geste rituel pour donner ˆ son pre mort quelque chose de precieux, de cher ˆ ses yeux. En aucun temps ai-je pense qu'elle abandonna le but du voyage par ce geste lˆ. Encore aujourd'hui au Quebec, des gens deposent un chapelet dans le cerceuil de leur parents decedes.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    October 4, 2002 - 04:39 pm
    Eloise; Je pense vous avez raison dites il y'a le contraste entre celles croises et ceux de Constantinople. C'est un contraste de luxe et salete. Les croises doivent passe sept cent kms de terre avant ils atteignent Constantinople. Ils auront sale sur le corps et sur les habits. Leur amis a Constantinople n'auront pas assez de cette parfum ˆ cache cette odeur de sale.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 4, 2002 - 08:08 pm
    Voici quelques belles images des croisades.

    ---------------DES ENLUMINURES ICI-------------

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 5, 2002 - 08:42 am
    Nous pouvons voir les costumes qui se portaient au Moyen åge et que l'auteur mentionne souvent dans le livre. J'aime pouvoir visualiser les personnages historiques dans des tenues authentiques.

    ICI

    Elo•se

    Sharon E
    October 5, 2002 - 08:52 am
    Elšise, when I went to the URL on clothing, there were only the names of the pieces of clothes and nothing happened when any of them were clicked on. Is it me or the site? Sharon

    Ginny
    October 6, 2002 - 03:13 am
    Sharon! Bienvenue mille fois! How delighted we are to welcome you, I myself am a bit behind so am scrambling to get Chapter I, of Part II read, we are delighted to add you to this hardy band of pioneers (Pilgrims) haahaha trying to read and discuss a book in French.

    I hope after the 15th I will be more available, I know Mme is taking Les Per to DC and it will proudly reside on our table at the National Book Festival!

    Eloise thank you so much for this:



    En jetant son chapelet dans l'eau, Brunissen ne faisait qu'un geste rituel pour donner ˆ son pre mort quelque chose de precieux, de cher ˆ ses yeux. En aucun temps ai-je pense qu'elle abandonna le but du voyage par ce geste lˆ. Encore aujourd'hui au Quebec, des gens deposent un chapelet dans le cerceuil de leur parents decedes.


    Here, Friends, is the value of an international discussion! I had thought that meant all kinds of importnat things, instead it's a custom in Quebec and probably other places, thank you eternally for that insight!




    Justin thank you for that marvelous background, would you explain what was meant by "Cycle" in the case of Carpaccio and others?

    Never understood that.




    I am struck by the false pilgrim thing, am I the only one? Here we are setting out, and on one of the sites Eloise put here, the one on Illuminations, we can see the seige of Constantinople in the 4th Crusade. Military attack!

    We know our little band could probably not fight a fly, so we assume they are there to....get their own salvation by "helping" out the most they can, what CAN they have thought?

    And as this Part II opens, we find them in great luxury and as Justin I think said they must have been pretty travel worn. I don't think of Constantinople as luxurious, here again, I think Bourin has done her homework, and based on her past performance in Part I I trust her, if she says it was luxe I believe her.

    Why are they going to Constantinople? Land route? It was a short trip from Brindisi but would it have been impossible by sea to Jerusalem?

    Eloise's earlier question about who is going to PAY for provisions was quite an issue in the real Crusdae apparently. They had not MADE provisions and when they got there arrangements were hurridly made, protection etc., fascinating fascinating times, I'm so glad we all can share them together and relive them as it were.

    So we have the devout, the Pilgrims, the Crusaders, the military, and the "false pilgrims." What are they? They fascinate me. Do they "pretend" piety?

    In this one phrase Bourin reveals the Voice of the book, the omniscient third person. Otherwise we would never have known.

    Are any of OUR group Pretend Pilgrims?

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 6, 2002 - 04:08 am
    Bonjour ˆ tous, comment allez-vous ce matin? Moi? je suis bien. La journee s'annonce ensoleillee et douce ici.

    Sharon - The site on clothing seems OK at this end. I just wanted to show what people wore in the Middle Ages as Les Peregrines talk about that from time to time. Have you started the book yet? What do you think so far? What is your assessment of the writing style, the characters, the crusades? I'm anxious to read your posts.

    Ginny - Oui alors, il y a beaucoup de faux plerins encore aujourd'hui. La rapace qui logeait dans la cale savait sžrement qu'il y avait des gens riches qui faisaient le pellerinage et il me semble que notre petit groupe etait assez fortune.

    Justin - Lorsque j'ai lu que l'auteur avait saute cette etape, j'etais contente car je ne m'imagine pas vivre comme eux sous la tente, des mois, des annees et rester propre. Il devait y avoir beaucoup de rivire en chemin pour laver tout ce linge. Effectivement ils devaient tre trs sales en arrivant ˆ Constantinople, mais la famille Garin n'etait pas du genre ˆ cacher la salete sous le parfum, il me semble. Certainement ils n'etaient pas 'squeeky clean' comme dans le monde occidental maintenant, mais dans ma tte je ne les imaginent pas etant malpropres.

    Vivre sous la tente etait chose assez courante dans le Moyen Orient et beaucoup de gens etaient nomades. Il y a deux sorte de salete, celle des villes, et celle des campagnes. Seulement, les vtements que portaient les croises ne se prtaient pas beaucoup ˆ ce genre de vie n'est-ce-pas?

    Ginny - Allez-vous vraiment apporter Les Peregrines ˆ Washington. Pensez-vous que quelqu'un va le regarder? Je suis toute ˆ fait curieuse de savoir ce qui se passera. MmeW, MsSusy et vous allez pouvoir bavarder en franais.

    Elo•se

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 6, 2002 - 04:44 am
    "Il y a deux sorte de salete, celle des villes, et celle des campagnes."

    J'ai trouve cela tres interesant. Moi, j'habite a la campagne et je me demande quelle sorte de salete que je possede.

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 6, 2002 - 05:37 am
    Robby - Vous sentez-vous combatif ce matin?

    Voici ce que je voulais dire et que je n'ai pas dit. Lorsque les nomades voyagaient de campement et campement dans le desert ou autrepart au Moyen åge, o prennent-ils l'eau pour se laver alors que mme pour boire il n'y en a presque pas? Regardez sur la page couverture du livre, les croises transportent tous des cruches remplies d'eau pour boire. Je suis certaine que les Peregrines ne prenaient pas une douche chaque jour mme chez eux ˆ Chartres et tout ce beau monde n'avaient pas l'eau courante dans leur maison comme nous. La proprete en Amerique tire ˆ l'obsession parce que nous avons de l'eau douce ˆ profusion.

    Assez bavarder et mettons-nous ˆ l'oeuvre.

    Elo•se

    MmeW
    October 6, 2002 - 09:00 am
    Ginny, on avait dejˆ parle de certains faux plerins, ceux qui faisaient le voyage pour autrui ou pour expier un crime (des criminels alors) et ceux qui comptaient gagner une fortune en vendant des reliques.

    Oui, mon Les Peregrines va faire une petite croisade ˆ Washington et il n'est pas faux plerin! Ni moi non plus!

    Sharon E
    October 6, 2002 - 10:49 am
    Merci pour le bienvenue. J'ai commence ˆ le lire mais seulement un peu ˆ ce moment comme j'ai ete bien occupee depuis que je l'ai reu. J'espre en lire plus cet aprsmidi avant d'aller au piquenique de notre village. Je pense que Mme a bien explique les faux pelerins. Sharon

    Justin
    October 6, 2002 - 03:10 pm
    Mme: D'accord. Toutes aventures de ce type accompagnent de "camp followers" qui ne partegent pas l'affair mais qui veulent profiter ˆ l'affaire. Ils sont les faux pelerins.

    Justin
    October 6, 2002 - 11:50 pm
    Icasia, la belle soeur de Gabriel, dit quel un doit dire. "Ce fou de Pierre qui se disait ermite" il nous amene des familles, des malades,des enfants ,et meme des estropies nous aider lutter contre les infideles. Maintenant, viennent le compte de Blois et le duc de Normandie. Sont-t-ils come Pierre or amenent ils des armee?

    mssuzy
    October 7, 2002 - 11:48 am
    Bonjour! |Aujourd'hui j'ai un peu plus de temps et je viens vous rendre visite. Ou en etes-cous de votre pelerinage? Robby-Eloise, j'ai eclate de rire en lisant vos histories de "salete des villes et salete des campagnes". Moi j'habite en banlieue, ce qui n'existait pas a l'epoque, alors c'est dans quelle categorie? Ou en etes-vous? Ils sont partis de Constantinople, non? Quelle epopee!"The Age of Faith" by the Durants, I forgot which volume, has a lot if info about the Middle Ages and I went from 1 book to the other. Passionnant. Serez-vous a la Bookfest as Wash.? A bientot!

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 7, 2002 - 03:18 pm
    MsSusy - Connaissez-vous la theorie du communisme en ex Russie Sovietique expliquee par les ouvriers? Voici, "Nous faisons semblant de travailler, ils font semblant de nous payer." Robby fait semblant de repondre ˆ un semblant de problme. Avec le temps vous comprendrez tout a, vous verrez. Je n'irai pas au Bookfest ˆ Washington cet annee, peut-‘tre l'an prochain, mais je vais ˆ Calgary pour le Seniornet Bash en aožt 2003, alors, ce sera peut-tre trop pour moi d'aller aux deux. Nous verrons, mais vous serez avec MmeW et Ginny pour bavarder en franais. N'oubliez pas d'apporter Les Peregrines. Vous nous manquerez toutes les trois. Heureusement qu'il en reste quelques uns pour venir discuter ici.

    Nous venons tout juste d'entrer dans Constantinople et nous contemplons la luxueuse maison des Danielis o vient d'entrer Gabriel Alliente, le frre d'Icasia la femme d'Andronic Danielis. La deuxime partie, chapitre premier. Moi aussi je participe ˆ la discussion Life of Greece. Dommage que ces deux discussions n'en sont pas ˆ la mme epoque n'est-ce-pas?

    Le personnage d'Icasia me fascine. Comment la voyez-vous ˆ prime abord? Sera-t-elle une bonne h™tesse pour la famille Garin?

    Elo•se

    Justin
    October 7, 2002 - 11:28 pm
    Cette princesse Ann qui est discuta est en realite Anna Comnene, la fille de l'empereur. C' etait elle qui se confie plus moins les croises qui les motifs etait souponner.

    Ginny
    October 8, 2002 - 05:55 am
    Bonjour, bonjour! This will be my last post until next Monday as I'm off to the National Book Festival in DC where we will present our effort here, our Books to the world as a Participating Organization, quel excitement!

    You are left in the best possible hands with our Eloise!

    I am not sure je comprends tous que vous avez dit, but I have read on into the first chapter of Part II and have these parting shots to say.

    Thank you, Eloise, Mme, and Sharon for the de faux plerins stuff, I think it's just another evidence of my lack of facility which I never realized as I tend to JUMP ON things like that, thinking she is being droll or having hidden meanings. For instance, could she have been referring to those who give lip service (as some of you mentioned) but were not true? I tend to watch like a hawk for clues and sometimes read more into things than are there, especially in this discussion, I'm grateful for your assistance, I would have been overboard with the rosary in the water and the false pilgrims thing!

    10 Days in May is the period covered in Chapter I, and I love Bourin's throwing us right into the action. When we quit we were on the ship, possibly a dangerous ship and suddenly we're in the midst of opulence, talking with a Court appointee (is he also a eunuch?) and his sister.

    Their conversation is fascinating to me, and shows you the burden placed on those towns thru which the Crusaders and Pilgrims pass. Some of her questions are mine, too, how do the Pilgrims hope to seize the Sepulcre?

    You can also see the dangers inherent in the times just by her descriptions, I sure would hate to have several hundred such diverse people descend on me (why?) because I had the nicest house. It would seem the Emperor's daughter has to make them welcome?

    Yet Icasia seems to have her doubts about this bunch approaching, I loved this:


    C'est de combattants quo nous avons besoin pour nous aider a lutter contre les infidles, not pas de familles, de maladies, d'enfants et mme d'estropies!


    So there we can see the old feudal system in full operation, we need the soldiers to protect US from ravaging armies, not these Pilgrims.

    Eloise asked earlier what kind of hosts these folks are, I'm not quite that far in, but I would say the motivation here is grudging, at best!

    What does this mean?



    contre des dents fort bien entretenues,?.


    What does that have to do with the rest of the sentence ? Am lost here.

    Also at the very first when describing the (palace??) the author mentions "la bibliotheque," and I did not think that they HAD libraries at that time, Justin can you advise here? We know Bourin has done her homework but I know that the only books extant were few and far between, does the house of an Emperor make a difference?

    Such a fun book! (Every time they mention perfumers, I can't help but think of Henry VIII and his court, who regarded bathing as a couple of times a year horror and not conducive to good health and so poured on the perfumes, can you just imagine?) Was it the same way in the First Crusade? Gosh, just imagine.

    A somewhat startling statement appears about 9 pages in (I regret that's all I had time to read this morning) that "les habitants de Byzance etaient egaux au regard de la loi."

    Now that one stops me. Doesn't that fly in the face of the Feudal system as we know it? What does it mean?

    See you on Monday!

    A bient™t,

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 9, 2002 - 01:34 pm
    Gabriel occupait la fonction de Prefet du Caniclee, Ç Charge confie ˆ un dignitaire du Palais imperial qui ne s?occupait que de veiller ˆ l?entretien de l?encrier de l?empereur, sorte de secretaire de confiance. È

    Comment un eunuque pouvait-il avoir une si haute fonction au palais? Je croyais que les eunuques ne servaient que dans les harems.

    Icasia, Ç La s?ur de Gabriel se balaait d?un air melancolique sur un large lit d?un bois precieux È Dois-je comprendre aussi que son lit etait suspendu du plafond et que c?etait une balanoire? Imagine yourself in a swinging bed. I have never seen this.

    Le mari et le beau-pre d?Icasia etaient parfumeurs au service de l?empereur. Les parfumeries aujourd?hui sont des multinationales, Chanel, Guerlin, etc. etc.

    Des dents fort bien entretenues- Teeth extremely well looked after.

    Ginny the Peregrines were not in the Palace of the Emperor, they were in the Danielis house. Icasia is, as you say, grudgingly hosting the Garin family because her father-in-law insisted that they stay there. It will be clearer as you read on.

    I hope you are having a good time in Washington.

    Elo•se

    Roslyn Stempel
    October 9, 2002 - 02:28 pm
    Je suis arrivee a la page 202, au commencement des incidents plus sanglants, ou nous voyons les blesses, les moines=medicins, et les "trois nobles dames" qui travaillent courageusement parmi l'angoisse de ces soldats. Ici, Bourin nous montre encore qu'il y avait beaucoup de femmes et enfants accompagnant les hommes qui etaient a la tete de famille, plutot que rester chez elles en attendant les nouvelles de triomphe ou de desastre.

    Il me semble que , comme Jeanne Bourin dans le chapitre precedent avait commence a employer un style plus"poli," elegant, parfume, pour montrer le haut monde de Constantinople, ici elle a change a des mots plus brusques. durs. pour dessiner ce monde de douleurs, blessures, dangers, de la guerre que vient toujours plus proche. Malgre que je la trouve, comme ecrivain, un peu agacant, j'admire cet habilete dont elle peut suggerer une ambiance.

    Ros

    Sharon E
    October 9, 2002 - 05:08 pm
    Je suis arrivee ˆ la page 80 o Gabriel parle avec sa soeur. Comme vous, Elšise, je n'ai jamais vu un lit comme a. J'ai une question--est-ce qu'il y avait de vraies sauterelles qui ont precede les pelerins ou est-ce que Gabriel appelle les pelerins des sauterelles. Je l'ai lu qu'il y avait des vraies sauterelles qui etaient un mauvais signe des choses ˆ venir. Et vous?

    Je pense qu'il y a beaucoup de vieux mots dans ce livre que je n'ai jamais vus. C'est moi ou l'auteur? Il y a longtemps depuis que j'ai lu un livre entier en franais. Donc, il est possible que j'ai beaucoup oublie. Je peux le lire sans dictionnaire ˆ cause du contexte, mais c'est agaant. Sharon

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 9, 2002 - 06:32 pm
    Roslyn - Nous n'en sommes pas encore rendus ˆ la page 202 pour donner ˆ tous le monde le temps de bien comprendre. Merci de nous signaler a et maintenant je peux voir ce changement de style. Vous avez raison, mais je ne suis pas habituee ˆ analyser un texte comme a mais je vais essayer de comparer les style lorsque nous serons arrives lˆ.

    Sharon - Comme votre franais est bien. Je suis tellement contente de vous voir parmis nous ainsi que Roslyn. Si je me rappelle bien, vous avez vecu en France? A propos des mots anciens, ce sont des mots que nous n'employons plus, ˆ vrai dire. Jeanne Bourin les emploient pour donner un air d'authenticite ˆ l'histoire, mais comme une participante a dit une fois, ce n'etait mme pas le franais qui se parlait au Moyen åge. Souvent je ne les cherchent pas dans le dictionnaire parce qu'eventuellement on peut les comprendre avec le sens de la phrase.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    October 9, 2002 - 10:20 pm
    Eloise: Je surprend que vous ne fait pas reconnaisance l"eunuque dans autre les tasches que la garde de l'harem. En Chine un servi a l'administrateur. Si aussi en l'autre les pays.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 10, 2002 - 06:29 am
    Justin - En effet, je ne savais pas que les eunuques avaient d'autres t‰ches, mais gr‰ce ˆ vous et tant d'autres, j'apprends encore. Y avaient-ils encore beaucoup d'eunuques mille ans aprs Jesur Christ dans le monde?

    Sharon - Sans vous offenser, le trema sur mon prenom est sur le '•' et non pas sur le 'o'. Je ne sais plus ˆ propos des sauterelles, mais je vais aller voir. C'est une question trs interessante parce que les sauterelles detruisaient les recoltes.

    Ici dans les Peregrines, nous allons nous rendre compte de la vie des nobles dans le Moyen åge et quelles etaient leurs distractions favorites.

    Je me demandais si la noblesse etait hereditaire comme en France, mais il est dit ˆ propos des antecedants d'Icasia et Gabriel: "...les fonctions publiques d'une certaine importance entra”na”ent d'office l'anoblissement. Icasia, en epousant Andronic Danielis, riche parfumeur il est vrai, mais plebien malgre tout, avait eu le sentment de se mesallier."

    Icasia se voyait donc apartenir ˆ une 'caste' superieure de son mari d'o le mepris qu'elle semblait avoir envers lui.

    Elo•se

    Marilou
    October 10, 2002 - 01:28 pm
    Bonjour tout le monde,

    J'ai beaucoup de travail et je ne peux venir mettre mon grain de sel aussi souvent que je le voudrais. Chaque soir je lis quelques pages des Ç Peregrines È je ne sais pas si c'est parce que je suis fatiguee mais je trouve que Mme. Bourin emploie beaucoup d'adjectifs pour decrire les choses, les gens et les situations. Elle en utilise beaucoup et souvent.Ce n'est pas mauvais en soi, seulement a devient fatiguant, cela alourdi la lecture.Trop c'est comme pas assez!

    L'histoire demeure malgre tout interessante et je sais que l'auteur a fait abondamment de recherches afin de pouvoir ecrire ce roman de la faon la plus veridique possible. En contre-coup plus je lis ce livre et plus je suis contente de vivre en 2002 non pas que cette epoque soit meilleure mais j'y suis adaptee. J'avoue qu'en aucun temps je ne changerais mon simple confort contre toutes les richesses de ce temps-lˆ. Je dois quitter, je vous souhaite un bon conge de l'Action de gr‰ce.

    Marilou.

    Roslyn Stempel
    October 10, 2002 - 07:24 pm
    Brava. brava. Marilou! Vous avez justement exprime mes pensees autour de Jeanne Bourin.Trop de paroles en serie -- les couleurs, les etoffes, les parfums, les gens, et tout comme ca. Et moi aussi je crois qu'elle avait fait de recherches magnifiques, surtout l'histoire ecrit par Anna Comnenes, enfant prodigue distinguee par son enorme connaissance. Elle aussi avait dirige un oeil admiratif vers Bohemond (notre Super-Matou) a cause de sa beaute, sa virilite, son courage.sa grande taille... comme Bourin, je laisse les petits points pour indiquer un grand soupir.

    I don't know what would be the current French slang for "hunk," but that is the way Alais, Anna, and others regarded Bohemond.

    Ros

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 11, 2002 - 04:50 am
    Marilou - thanks for bring that facet of style of Bourin. Does it deter one from wanting to read on I wonder?

    J'ai trouve ce site interessant avec une carte de l'Europe au temps de la premire croisade.

    MAP OF THE FIRST CRUSADE

    Elo•se

    Justin
    October 11, 2002 - 11:09 pm
    Posters of LP who are also posters in Durant's C will note on Page 95 in LP a reference to "certains portraits de l'art cretois... Qui portraits refere-t-elle ici? La Parisienne, peut-etre. Qui? Il y a un portrait, une femme, tout corps, ˆ Knossos que aurait ete ˆ propos.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 13, 2002 - 09:04 am
    Bonjour, Ce matin dans la discussion "Life of Greece" il y a une carte interessante qui situe la ville de Troy par rapport ˆ Constantinople o se trouvaient les Peregrines. < CLIQUEZ ICI

    J'ai aussi pu voir deux photos de Ginny et de Mme W qui sont presentement ˆ Washington pour le Bookfest. Je suis contente de pouvoir vous conna”tre mieux toutes les deux avec les photos. Avez-vous mis Les Peregrines sur la table avec les autres livres de Books and Literature? Avez-vous visite des musees? Racontez-nous tout, nous voulons tout savoir.

    A lundi donc, et bon retour. Elo•se

    mssuzy
    October 13, 2002 - 09:25 pm
    Bonjour tout le monde! I gave my Peregrines away to my daughter, so I can't answer all your questions because i can't go back to the book, but isn't Constantinople a grand place to visit? and isn't that Icasia the perfect b....? spoiled, jealous, lazy, self-centered, I can't think of any redeeming quality for her. Oh pardon Robby, j'oubliais d'ecrire en anglais. Enjoy your stay in C. as it will change drastically later on. J'ai beaucoup aime ce passage, sauf cette horrible personne, la soi-disant hotesse. Ce qui m'a quelque peu surprise, c'est que le beau-pere fasse un tel cas de son ami le pretre qu'il lui offre l'hospitalite, a lui et a sa famille, alors qu'ils n'etaient pas du tout du meme rang social. C'est peut-etre cela qu'Icasia represente; on ne melangeait ps les classes. Il fallait donc que le pretre soit beaucoup plus qu'un modeste cure de village pour s'etre lie d'amitie avec un monsieur tel que les Danielis. Il se trouve aussi que cet humble cure soit connu des nobles du temps. Il est actuellement le pivot du livre, beaucoup disparaissent en route, mais lui reste jusqu'a la derniere page, Dieu merci. Represente t'il le bon cote de l'Eglise catholique, par opposition a beaucoup d'autres, y compris l'eveque lui-meme? Bref. Ce melange de races, de rangs sociaux, de points de vue, de luxure outranciere et de pauvrete abysmale, la ville de tous les vices et de toutes les richesses envahie par les pelerins pauvres en objets materiels mais riches de leur Foi - est-ce que la societe humaine a tellement change? Assez pour ce soir, bonsoir

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 14, 2002 - 11:28 am
    ========================ISTAMBUL==================

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 14, 2002 - 01:57 pm
    Suzy, J'ai consulte mon Larousse pour tre sure de ne pas me tromper. Un notaire reois et redigera les actes, les contrats pour leur conferer un caractre authentique. Episcopal, qui appartient, qui est propre ˆ l'Evque bien plus qu'une cure de village il me semble, le Notaire Episcopal devait appartenir au mme rang social que Theophane Danielis. N'est-ce-pas une etrange amitie qui lie ces deux hommes?

    Justin - Oui, je vois ˆ ma page 80, Joannisse la soeur de lait d'Icasia, etait comparee ˆ certains protraits de l'art Cretois... je pense que Jeanne Bourin faisait allusion peut tre ˆ a parisienne dont nous avons vu une image dans 'Life of Greece' et qui ressemblait peu tre ˆ Joannisse. J'essaierai de le trouver pour faire un lien ici.

    Plus loin dans cette page, Bourin explique le r™le d'eunuque ˆ la cour et on dit qu'ils etaient: Les "officiers sans barbe" ....beneficient d'une position privilegiee sur toute l'etendue des possessions romaines. Jusqu'ˆ quand il y a-t-il eu des eunuques Justin?

    Il etait ˆ la mode de m‰cher du 'mastic de Chio' pour se parfumer l'haleine. (page 88). En page 90, nous apprenons que le pre Ascelin etait aussi Docteur en Droit et en Theologie, un homme fort instruit surtout pour cette epoque.

    Marilou, je sais ce que tu veux dire ma douce ˆ propos du style image et encombre de qualificatifs, mais pour moi c'est un changement radical de la litterature du genre 'parler de la rue' qui je vois ici souvent. Je pense que c'est a que j'aime de ce livre.

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 14, 2002 - 02:49 pm
    LA PARISIENNE dont Justin mentionnait plus haut et qui ressemblait ˆ Joannisse, la soeur de lait d'Icasia.

    Justin
    October 14, 2002 - 11:37 pm
    Ces pelerins, se fatiguent et malpropre,ils avancent sur Constantinople, ville cosmopolite avec divers residents. Il y a Grecs, Hongrois , Venitiens , Turcs, Russes, Germains, Bulgares, Syriens, Perses, Armeniens, Juifs, Georgiens, Arabes, et Ethiopiens. Ils ne sont pas Chretiens tout. Il appare que seule le roi et sa cour est Chretien. Peut-etre des autres additionment. Les Pelerins sont dormir prochain les murs hors le ville. Leurs effet sur la ville soient endommagant.

    Roslyn Stempel
    October 15, 2002 - 10:01 am
    Eloise, j'ai trouve mon grande "Collins-Robert" les mots qui veulent dire un homme tres beau et qui les femmes trouvent tres seduisant, comme en anglais on appelle "hunk.": On peut dire " beau-mec." On peut employer ces mots pour decrire Bohemond de Tarante, n'est-ce pas?

    Ros

    Sharon E
    October 15, 2002 - 11:21 am
    Je regrette que je n'aie pas recemment ecrit ici, mais j'ai eu beaucoup d'obligations la semaine passee. Aussi, Elo•se, je regrette que j'ai mis le trema sur le "o" au lieu du "i". J'ai pense que le nom ne me semblait pas correcte.

    Je suis d'accord avec les autres qui pensent qu'Icrasia ne serait pas une bonne h™tesse pour les pelerins. Elle me semble tre un snob et trs paresseuse. J'ai pense que la description des eunuques comme "officiers sans barbe" est trs dr™le et apte. Je dois lire plus du livre maintenant. Sharon

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 15, 2002 - 02:48 pm
    Roslyn - Mais oui, je me creusais la tte, mais comme je ne l'entend pas souvent dans mon entourage je ne m'en souvenais pas. Peut-tre que Marilou l'aurais su etant plus jeune, (beaucoup). C'est a, beau mec, a 'hunk'. Nous pouvons maintenant le qualifier autrement que Bourin le ferait. HaHaHa. Pourquoi pas? Bohemond, le beau mec.

    Suzy - Mme dans ce temps-lˆ les prtres etant plus instruits que la plupart des gens aimaient frequenter le grand monde pour discuter d'autres choses que ce qui se passe dans la vie des pauvres gens. Ils etaient souvent les invites parmi les nobles o ils etablissaint des liens qui leur servaient dans leur deplacement comme nous pouvons le voir dans les Peregrines.

    Si la famille de Garin n'avait pas ete invitee chez les Danielis, ils n'auraient pas vu Constantinople et la richesse de cette grande citee medievale que l'auteur nous decrit au travers de l'intrigue. Bourin passe d'un chapitre dramatique ou les personnages vivent des aventures, comme dans la traversee de l'Adriatique, ˆ un autre plus calme et romantique comme ˆ Constantinople.

    Ginny bienvenue, et racontez-nous ce qui s'est passe en detail ˆ Washington?

    Elo•se

    Marilou
    October 16, 2002 - 08:57 am
    Bonjour tout le monde

    Bien sur Elo•se, les prtres etaient plus instruits, mais c'etait une question de Pouvoir. Pouvoir religieux, pouvoir politique, pouvoir sur le peuple avec leurs notions du bien et du mal, leurs influences rarement utilisees pour le mieux-tre de l'ensemble de la population. En avant les braves... allons faire la guerre, le pape le demande, en echange: la redemption de vos peches passes, presents et ˆ venir! La belle affaire, ils avaient plut™t rendez-vous (beaucoup d'entre eux) avec la mort. Trs peu connaissaient les vrais enjeux de ces guerres religieuses.

    Desole, je m'emporte un peu, je sais qu'il ne faut pas mettre tous les prtres, dans le mme panier et peut-tre que le pre Ascelin etait quelqu'un de bien, ˆ tout le moins jusqu'ˆ la page 200, le restera-t-il jusqu'ˆ la fin du roman??? C'est ˆ lire que je trouverai reponse.

    Ë chaque chap”tre on change radicalement d'ambiance, si vous tes encore dans Constantinople profitez des belles choses parce que dans le suivant on peut presque sentir l'odeur du sang sur les champs de batailles.

    Je dois quitter, ˆ bient™t. Marilou.

    Roslyn Stempel
    October 16, 2002 - 11:02 am
    En lisant votre poste j'ai rencontre un mot nouveau pour moi, "enjeux"que me semble tres utile en cette histoire. Bien sur que les peregrines. les Garins compris, n'en songeraient jamais. Ce tragique gaspillage qu'on nomme Les Croisades a coute tant de sang, tant de mort, tant de pertes et de peine. mais tout de meme on les a appelle une guerre sainte,sacre, noble etc. Puisque je suis juive je n'ai jamais vue les Croisades comme guerre noble a cause des massacres des innocents et la haine que les chretiens portaient dans leur coeurs contre tout le monde qui n'etait pas chretien. Notre famille Garin n'a jamais exprime un peu de remords pour ces cruautes, pensant seulement a la gloire de Dieu et la defaite des infideles.

    Ros

    Roslyn Stempel
    October 16, 2002 - 05:22 pm
    En pensant a quel sorte d'histoire nous lisons il me semble que, n'ayant point une vrai intrigue,[je veux dire "plot"] il doit etre un quete, car le famille Garin et ses amis suivent toujours le chemin vers Jerusalem, et le livre terminera quand ils y arriverent.Si quelqu'un a lu a peu pres 200 pages, y a-t-il quelqu'un qui est d'accorde avec moi?

    Ros

    Justin
    October 16, 2002 - 05:24 pm
    In Baghdad, 1099,Abu Sa'ad al-Harawi told the Caliph a tale of horror. He, al-Harawi had traveled three weeks from Jerusalem to tell of the sack of Jerusalem by the fair haired Franj warriors. " Blood has been spilled. Beautiful young girls have been shamed." The Franj had taken the holy city on Friday, the twenty-second day of the month of Sha'ban, in the year of the Hegira, after a forty day seige. Two days later when the killing stopped , not a single muslim was left alive within the city walls.

    The fate of the Jews of Jerusalem was no less atrocious. The entire community gthered in the main synagogue to pray. The Franj barricaded all the exits and put the temple to the torch. Escapees were massacred. The rest were burned alive.

    The above is paraphased material from Amin Maalouf's "The Crusades through Arab Eyes."

    Les croises fait tout cet dans le nomme de Dieu. Est-ce-que la religion est bonne ou mal?

    Justin
    October 16, 2002 - 05:46 pm
    Roz: Oui, d'accord. C'est une quete pour les sangs des Saracins par un peuple autrement tranquille.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 17, 2002 - 05:00 am
    Roslyn - J'au du chercher le mot anglais 'quest' parce que nous n'employons pas 'qu‘te' dans le mme sens qu'en anglais. Vous avez sžrement raison. Mon dictionnaire dit que 'qute' est une poursuite, une croisade mais qui a perdu sa vogue dans la franais courant dans ce sens lˆ.

    Bourin peut-tre s'est servie des Croisades pour situer son intrigue dans une epoque historique contreversee. Comme a, elle etait certaine que son livre se vendrait bien!!!!!! Je cherche peut-tre la bte noire, mais je serais surprise qu'elle approuve ces croisades.

    Je ne comprends pas pourquoi une guerre serait 'noble' 'sainte' 'sacree' sinon pour se justifier. Les homme sont fait comme a en depit de leur religion qui leur dictent la paix, ˆ mon avis. N'oublions pas que le pape etait considere comme le representant de Dieu ˆ cette epoque et qu'il a abuse de son pouvoir.

    Le peuple Juif est induement persecute d'une part par des Chretiens, de l'autre par des Musulmans mme par les Communistes et cela continue.

    Elo•se

    Sharon E
    October 17, 2002 - 07:07 am
    Il y a beaucoup de peches commis au nom de religion. Je ne sais pas qui a dit cela, mais je crois qu'il est tellement vrai. Sharon

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 17, 2002 - 01:10 pm
    Nous allons aperevoir bient™t dans le livre, une Anne Comnne beaucoup plus jeune et seduisante comme epouse du Basilius, Alexis de Comnne que comme historienne avertie.

    "As a true Byzantine she looks on the Crusades only from the narrow and selfish standpoint of Constantinople, and detests soundly all Latins. The chronology is defective. She loves to describe scenes of splendour, great state-actions, audiences, and feasts, whatever is concrete and picturesque. Nor is she adverse to satire, court gossip, and detraction. Profounder matters, financial, military, and constitutional, escape her purview. Withal, however, Krumbacher calls it "one of the most remarkable efforts of medieval Greek historiography", the first notable production of the medieval Greek Renaissance set afoot by Psellos and powerfully furthered by the family of the Princess. She strains in her vocabulary for an Attic elegance, though construction and style betray too often the distance between her and the models (Thucydides and Polybius) whom she aims at imitating. She avoids, as unfit for the pen of an historian, uncouth foreign names and vulgar terms. Her studied precision in the matter of hellenizing causes her pages to take on a kind of mummy-like appearance when compared with the vigorous, living Greek of contemporary popular intercourse."

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 17, 2002 - 01:32 pm
    Voici le franais qui se parlait au Moyen åge et dont je ne saurais pas vous en faire la traduction et qui est trs loin du franais dans Les Peregrines.

    Rois franais du moyen ‰ge

    ---------------

    PROVERBES DU ROY.

    A la cort le roi, chascun i est por soi.

    Con vieul li rois, si va la loys.

    Le roy jure sa couronne qui puis la rapelle.

    Le roy pert son droit la ou il ne treuve que prendre.

    Parole que le rois a dite ne doit estre escondite.

    Rois ne se doit desdire.

    Sergent a roi per est a conte.

    mssuzy
    October 17, 2002 - 03:24 pm
    Est-ce que toutes les guerres ne sont pas les memes? Commandees par les riches au pouvoir pour envoyer les petits gars du peuple se faire tuer. Les Croisades n'etaient guere differentes, sauf qu'avec le Pape, on y a mele un etendard de religion.le resultat etait le meme. Que reste-t'il de tant de peines?

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 17, 2002 - 07:52 pm
    Bon voici une erreur que je corrige. Anne Comnne etait la fille d'Alexis de Comnne et son mari, Nycephore Bryenne. Icasia etait sa parfumeuse, disons son estheticienne ˆ la cour.

    ANNE COMNENE

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 18, 2002 - 03:50 pm
    Mssuzy - Naturellement, il n'y a rien de nouveau sur terre, les hommes se font la guerre et les femmes font des enfants n'est-ce-pas? Du moins c'est ce que nous avons vu dupuis que nous etudions dans le livre 'Story of Civilization' de Will Durant, l'histoire se repte depuis le commencement des temps. Ne pouvons-nous pas prevoir un peu ce qui se passera dans l'avenir?

    Je me mets ˆ la place des Peregrines, avaient-elles le choix de questionner ce que le Pape commandait aux croises? ou suivaient-elles aveuglement le mouvement des milliers d'hommes, de femmes et d'enfants qui abandonnaient tout, et risquaient leur vie pour aller 'delivrer' le tombeau du Christ.

    Se rebeller voulait dire risquer un ch‰timent cruel et impitoyzable. Ils etaient banni de leur famille, de leur village, et etaient condannes ˆ errer comme des mandiants pour survivre.

    Dommage que la democratie n'existait pas en ce temps-lˆ.

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 19, 2002 - 05:54 am
    Lurkers, welcome.

    I hear from emails that we could use more English here to allow those who would like to participate but don't feel confident enough. Perhaps I could give a resume of the chapter in English and that way those who would like to comment in English could participate which would make us very happy. Of course I don't write like Jeanne Bourin, who does, but I could give it my best shot.

    Elo•se

    Roslyn Stempel
    October 19, 2002 - 10:57 am
    Un sommaire en anglais serait plus facile et permettrait que tout le monde comprend (?) les evenements de l'histoire.et pourrait faire des comments pour exprimer ses pensees. Lire en francais n'est pas du tout le meme chose que parler ou ecrire francais. Il me semble que pour ceux qui ont tant de difficulte manquent le plaisir de pouvoir discuter le livre soi-meme,l'intrigue, les caracteres, les dialogues,etc. Neanmoins ils montrent bon courage en l'essayant.

    I'll allow myself the luxury of some English today .

    . If B&L is to continue with French books I wonder if the selection should be made among much simpler works, the shorter works of Daudet, for example, or Symphonie pastorale, or even those works of iterature that are now classified as "young adult" and have a simpler vocabulary.

    Courage, Eloise et nos amis! Pas a pas, on va loin.

    Ros

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2002 - 11:04 am
    I suggest the short stories of deMaupassant. Par exemple, "Le Jongleur" ou "Boule de Suif."

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 19, 2002 - 12:15 pm
    Roslyn and Robby, very good suggestions that Ginny and I will certainly take into consideration. I know La Symphonie Pastorale, not about music, dealing with a young blind woman, unable to talk until a pastor teaches her. It takes place in France in the 20th century. A very moving story poignantly written from which a movie was made with Michle Morgan ub tge 1950's. I have never read Guy de Maupassant but he is a classic.

    Elo•se

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2002 - 02:20 pm
    When dealing with a foreign language, my interest in the theme of the story continues if I get to the climax fairly rapidly. My emphasis in my last post was on the word "short." deMaupassant's short stories are VERY short. Most certainly too short to be made into a movie. One can compare him to O.O. Henry.

    Robby

    Roslyn Stempel
    October 19, 2002 - 05:32 pm
    I don't wish to appear condescending in any way, but I agree that especially for readers who are a litle rusty a briefer story would be a more satisfactory undertaking. I'm halfway through my second reading of Les Peregrines and I confess that even now, after 3 or 4 pages I begin to be restless. I think the structure of the novel is somewhat responsible. The events, while interesting in themselves, are happening to the individuals and are not integral to the progress of the story, except chronologically. The reader's interest is drawn successively to the emotional plight of each daughter, and to some extent to the son, Landry, but these successive crises are only tangentially related to the attainment of the primary goal, Jerusalem. In addition, Bourin's predilection for serial adjectives can become tedious and encourages skipping.

    Eloise, you are being diligent and patient and your monitoring of our progress is truly helpful. I'd be glad to see this project continue -- and Ginny would love to see one in Latin!) - with an opportunity to select a diferent subject.

    Ros

    mssuzy
    October 19, 2002 - 07:47 pm
    Bonjour a tous. Roslyn, I don't see theh primary goal of this novel as Jerusalem; to me, it is entertaining the reader, and that, Jeanne Bourin does wonderfully. The language is not easy for non French native speakers, I grant you that, but it is beautifully written, and it kept my attention, I couldn't put it down until the end. Maupassant wrote wonderful stories, and probably easier to read. By the way, has anyone seen Le Misanthrope de Moliere? It's playing in Washington, in English unfortunately, but it's one of the great classics. Has anyone seen the movie "8 women" in French?

    Justin
    October 19, 2002 - 08:40 pm
    Je se trouve jouissant l'ecriture beaucoup. Lisant francaise est pas difficile mais parlant et entendant est trs difficile pour moi. Allons y continuons avec Les P ˆu fini. Donc nous choisissons d'autre le livre. Eloise et Ginny choisirent cet on. Nous sommes vingt percent complet. Pourquoi pas le fini? Si, il y a trop adjective. Des ecriteurs decrivent en excessivement. Des artistes peintent en excessivement. Il y a amusement en la critique.

    Ginny
    October 20, 2002 - 03:23 am
    Bonjour a Tous! I am sorry to have been away, but Eloise and you have handled this splendidly I truly don't think you could have done it better.

    No, MsSuzy (what a delight to meet you at last in DC, what a delight you are!) I have not seen 8 Women but am dying to, I check the paper daily, I have seen the Moliere (in English) and enjoyed it, would not mind seeing it again.

    I appreciate each of your comments about the book. We have read more than 300 books here in the Books & Literature sections of SeniorNet and it's inevitable and desirable that each reader form his own likes and dislikes about the book, the writing, the plot development, the pace, etc. We certainly don't have to like every book, in fact, our own literary criticism is important for each work.

    We can surely read something shorter next time, or more modern, but our burden this time is to thoroughly discuss this book, I think it would be most unfair to Eloise in her very first attempt at leading a book discussion (the most difficult thing you can do online) with us, to abandon ship mid way thru.

    I realize the French is quite difficult, given that, are you able to speed UP your reading at all? I'm almost thru Chapter 2 in Part II and am willing to proceed.

    It really came home to me last night , as I'm reading The Dream of Scipio as well, a multi layered thing by Ian Pears, much lauded, which I can barely keep track of, since it bounces from 900 AD to 1400 AD with aplomb.

    It's like reading the Bourin, but in English? And it's interesting to me to see how this different author chooses to let us know what life was like in the 900s? It's quite similar? The Lord of the manor I guess you'd call him, looks worriedly over the huts which are moving closer and closer to his castle in 900 AD France for protection, worries over the advancing armies, whatever their reason for being there (do you remember Caesar and the requests from the barbarians on BOTH sides to come into the lands of others? Fascinating reading) and generally goes into details (a bishop thought to be a saint, after his death is ripped to pieces by those wanting relics) that perhaps I could have preferred to omit.

    I think this book, like all the others we've read, is an experience and in order for us to truly give it our best, we need at least to finish it. I intend to do that, maybe not writing my comments in French, but there's plenty of French here, but to finish it anyway, I hope you all will give it your best try, let's try to speed up the pace a bit, thank you for waiting and for the wonderful information you've brought here and special thanks to our inimitable Eloise who has labored out of a love for the book and this discussion.

    What does "nus" mean? I thought the bit about the snake, the writing, was poetic, almost onomatopoeic?

    More as I finish Chapter 2 today, I will admit to a slight annoyance with Boruin's fondness for "soupira." I have never liked whispering people, want to slap her every time one of them whispers, but that's my own hang up. hahahaha

    If I lived then I probably would not have opened my mouth.

    What elements in Chapter 2 strike you as incongruous, if any?

    ginny

    mssuzy
    October 20, 2002 - 06:39 am
    Bonjour! Ginny, thank you for your comments, I wish we had more time to tlak but everybody was very busy. Anyway, there will be other times... "nus" means naked; "soupirer" is to sigh, not to whisper, and I feel these people had plenty to sigh about. Could we, westerners, possibly live as they did? No. And what motivated all these pilgrims, as I consider these crusades to be pilgrimages: Faith, Hope for salvation? Duty? Obedience? And I am only thinking of the innocent masses, not the politicians, clergy or warlords, or brigands. By all means, continue till the end, through the family crises, through losses and relationships changes, through pain and joy; that's what makes a good novel so hard to put down. The Crusades are the necessary background, but what makes the novel interesting is the story of people, ordinary people like ourselves placed in extraordinary situations.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 20, 2002 - 07:06 am
    Ginny, thanks for your encouragement. Like Marilou said, it is a challenge that our Anglophone participants have been willing to tackle and bravo to them for this. When I was 15 I decided that knowing English would inprove my life 100% and I gave up so much just to learn it, you have no idea how much I gave up.

    Bourin is difficult. Of course I don't have to look the words up, and even if I don't understand a word once in a while, I seldom look it up. The next time it is used, I know what it means.

    I tried to translate a bit this morning, but found it so tedious that I gave up. It's like translating Cyrano de Bergerac in English. Molire in English you say MsSuzy, how did you find it?

    Tout est excessif ici, l'ecriture trop ornee, la religion et ses exigeances, les situations, les somptueuses maison des riches et les pauvres dans la misre des campements.

    La vie n'etait qu'un bref passage qui ne tenait que par un fil au Moyen åge. La perdre au service de Dieu etait glorieux, mme si au service de Dieu il fallait massacrer des innocents.

    La famille Garin va entrer dans le territoire des Danielis. Le conflit entre les deux familles promet d'tre dur avec la caractre altier d'Icasia qui se voit envahie par une horde de croises qu'elle ne se cache pas de mepriser. Le gouffre qui existe entre elle et son mari ne fera que se creuser et elle pense posseder les armes qui la debarassera de cette encombrante famille qui semble beneficier de la faveur de son beau-pre et de son mari Andronic.

    Peut-on prevoir que ce dernier pourrait tre seduit par le charme d'une jeune franaise aux cheveux flamboyants?

    Elo•se

    Roslyn Stempel
    October 20, 2002 - 11:01 am
    Eloise, il me semble qu'a ce moment nos liseurs sont arrives a un part de notre livre que -- comment dire? -- n'est past tres interessant. (in other words, a bit boring). Mais prenez courage: Bientot nous plongerons encore dans les intrigues de l'amour qui rentront pour Alais et Flaminia. (Love is on the way for A and F), elles vont apprecier les frissons de l'amour, avec pour piment un peu de peche mortel (who will feel the thrills of love, spiced with a little mortal sin). Quant a Brunissen, elle commence a realiser que pour elle-meme, coeur et ame sont abreuves, inondes par l'amour de Dieu(Brunissen is beginning to realize that her heart and soul are filling with the love of God). Ainsi, mes amis, ca vaut la peine de continuer avec l'effort de lire.(Guys, it's worth hanging in there.)

    Ros

    Roslyn Stempel
    October 20, 2002 - 11:07 am
    Mais si, Mme.Eloise, on sait deja que ce Bohemonde est vraiment "beau mec") -- a hunk--et "matou" -- a tomcat -- qui aimerait beaucoup gouter un morceau, "bonne bouche," si delicat et charmant que la petite Alais. Ros

    Sharon E
    October 20, 2002 - 02:44 pm
    Je viens de lire le 2em chapitre de livre 2. J'etais tellement surprise que personne ne lui ait dit "non" quand Landry a dit qu'il va lutter avec les soldats pour liberer Jerusalem. Il n'a que quinze ans. Mme ˆ ce temps-lˆ il n'etait pas adulte! Et il projette ˆ quitter ses soeurs et sa grandmre sans homme ou garon sauf pour le prtre. A mon avis, ce n'est qu'un souhaite enfantine!

    Je dožte que je ne puisse venir ici la semaine prochaine puisque nous aurons des invites chez nous jusqu'ˆ vendredi. Sharon

    Roslyn Stempel
    October 20, 2002 - 05:20 pm
    Merci pour vos paroles tres sages. Malgre les plusieurs fautes de ce livre on doit le finir parce que nous voulons savoir tout l'histoire des Garins (ceux qui restent) jusqu'au fin et l'entree victorieuse a Jerusalem. Surtout je voudrais saluer le travail magnifique d'Eloise qui nous aide tant en expliquant les mots difficiles et les evenements compliques de l'intrigue. Vous nous apportez beaucoup. Si vous pouviez mettre un petit peu d'anglais de temps en temps, ca nous aiderait aussi.

    Ros

    Justin
    October 20, 2002 - 11:19 pm
    Notre amis veulons aller ˆ la messe.Elles doivent s'etre enveloppee dans une voile epais se promener au dehors de la maison. Les Nouveaux Romains pensent que le regard des hommes ne doit pas se poser sur celles qui ne sont ni leur mre, ni leur epouse, ni leur fille. C'est la practique des musulmans aujourd'hui. C'est le message de Saint Paul dans la Bible. Son message ˆ les Corinthians contient avis ˆ etat de femmes. Couvrez votre le tete. L'Elise latin demande les femmes couvrent les ttes ˆ msse. Qu'estque c'est l'origin de cet avertissment ? Pourquoi l'exist? Sait quelq'un?

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 21, 2002 - 07:06 am
    Merci Roslyn pour votre encouragement. C'est apprecie croyez-moi qui en suis ˆ ma premire experience en tant que DL dans 'Books and Literature'. Je voulais avoir cette experience.

    On top of my other work here at home, I want to continue till the end, but it will help if we went a bit faster as Ginny mentioned.

    In the second chapter, Gabiel, Icasia's brother whose function at court is to look after the emperor's 'inkwell', of course it really means that he is an administrator, a secretary of sorts, but he has wind of all the gossip, all the news that goes on in the city in the emperor's entourage and high society. Through the brother and sister conversations we visualize the splendor of the city, the homes of the opulent and the intrigues they plot to remain at the top of the heap. Gabriel thinks that city in the world is more grandiose than Constantinople. Describing a statue he says: "from the hight of a porphery column, the statue of Helen was facing another statue, this one was occupying the center stage. Much larger, we can admire Justinien, the husband of the famous Theodora"

    Are we talking about the famous Helen of Troy here? Gabriel was being driven through a multicultural crowd of Greeks, Hungarians, Venitiens, Turcs, Russians, Germans, Arabs or Ethiopiens.

    So the crusaders were no longer among people of their own culture, they were among Muslims, Christians and Jews. Many were not agreeing with the Pope's crusades and resented their presence which can be derived by Icasia's conversation with her brother.

    Personnellement, j'apprecie assez ce langage image que Bourin emploie pour tout decrire. Cela me situe mieux dans l'ambiance de l'endroit o ils sont arrives. (Evidamment, la tournure romantique que prendra la roman va mieux aux temperament jeunes et fougueux que Bourin ciblait pour vendre son livre.) Il en faut, sinon, cela ne devient qu'un compte rendu historique qui lui aussi devient ennuyant ˆ la longue. Il me faut un contexte humain et plausible, m‘me s'il est colore ˆ l'eau de rose, des semtiments reels, ce que les gens ressentent dans le fond du coeur.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    October 21, 2002 - 04:44 pm
    Helen is the mother of Constantine, the emperor. She was said to have discovered a relic of the true cross of Christ. Justinian is a fifth century Roman emperor based at Constantinople. His image and that of Theodora appear in a mosaic in a church in Ravenna, Italy which was the capitol of the Roman west.

    GingerWright
    October 21, 2002 - 05:31 pm
    This is the discussion is for French reading and French speaking people. But I wish to Thank You All So Much for putting the words in French and then inturpting it all in English as part of my linage is from France and I would like to know what this book is about Maybe when you are sumerising (sp) would be a good time. Does the name Mannausau strike a bell. I think the French language it is a beautiful Langauage.

    Wish I had taken the French class but who knew back then.

    Hi All, Ginger

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 22, 2002 - 03:55 am
    WELCOME OUR GINGER, THANKS FOR YOUR VISIT AND DO STAY WITH US.

    It would be very very nice to have participants who don't know French and they could comment on how they see the story evolving through reading the English portion. Remember that it is not restricted to French readers and speakers, everybody is welcome.

    I never heard the name Mannaussau and I am wondering if the spelling has not changed over the years Ginger. Thanks for what you said about the French language.

    Elo•se

    Roslyn Stempel
    October 22, 2002 - 05:28 am
    You have suggested a wonderful way in which Seniornet helps us reach out to new worlds. Even a nodding acquaintance with a few words and phrases in another language opens the door to another culture, people,and way of life. Especially since you know of your own French ancestry, this might be a way of learning something about your own family. What a delight to know that the summaries and comments in English can be of interest to others who don't participate in the actual reading. Please visit us again.

    Ros

    GingerWright
    October 22, 2002 - 12:30 pm
    Elo•se, The name Mannausau has changed but this is the orginal and for my family they have kept the orginal. Thanks for the warm Welcome.

    Ros, That is just what I meant. Reach out and touch someone type. Our family has done much research on our name and found that our grandfather is listed with the mormans and we hope to find others.

    I shall return to read all your posts. I am sorry to have interupted your thread.

    Ginger

    Justin
    October 22, 2002 - 12:51 pm
    Ginger: Je suis contente vous nous retournez. Bienvenue.

    Qui sait ˆ les reglers pour la couverture le cheveux de la femme. O vient il?

    Roslyn Stempel
    October 22, 2002 - 02:04 pm
    Je veux chercher l'origine des couvertures pour les tetes de femmes. Aux juives orthodoxes les femmes dans le synagogue portant toujours un morceau de fabrique sur la tete, comme le kipah des hommes. On croit que Dieu les a ordonne de couvrir la tete afin de montrer l'humilte. Les femmes catholoques aussi couvrent la tete, mais pas les hommes, sauf le pretre, l'archeveque, etc,

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 22, 2002 - 03:46 pm
    For fun Ginger, I looked up the name Mannaussau in the phone book, there are none, I looked up Stempel, none either and there was only one Fash. I didn't look up Anderson because I know there are many.

    Justin, When I was a child, all the women wore a hat in church until after the war, now, no one wears one. I never saw in the New Testament that women had to wear a head covering in church, except that they should be dressed decently. Today, women wear jeans, shorts, etc. etc.

    Les invocations chretiennes telles que 'Dieu le Veut', se multiplent comme pour bien mettre dans la tte des croises les sentiments Chretiens qui animaient les croises. Ces invocations leur semblaient necessaires pour conserver ce lien avec Dieu qui leur donnait du courage dans les epreuves et leur donnait l'espoir quoi qu'il arrive.

    Ë Constantinople, les epices se vendaient dans les parfumeries, ˆ Chartres, les parfums dans les epiceries. Etranges coutumes.

    Enfin, la belle Flaminia va conna”tre un homme qui va lui faire tourner la tte et battre son coeur, mais, comme a devait arriver, cet homme n'est pas libre. Elle sera tourmentee par sa conscience et dans ce cas lˆ, les Catholiques sont inflexibles, le mariage est indissoluble en depit des conflits qu'un couple peut avoir. Donc elle est dechiree entre ses deux amours, celui pour Dieu et celui pour un homme marie. Qui gagnera? Nous verrons bien.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    October 22, 2002 - 04:33 pm
    Roz: Oui, je comprend, mais quel est l'origin. Pourquoi? La tete de femme, est il si raide il la doit couvrit ou est il aussi tres jolie et donc une tentation pour les hommes?

    Justin
    October 22, 2002 - 04:44 pm
    In the Alexiad translated by Dawes, I find the following description of Bohemond, the Crusader by Anna Comnena.The work is dated in the early twelth century. "He was a marvel for the eyes to behold, and his reputation was terrifying.A certain charm hung about this man but was partly marred by a general air of the horrible.For in the whole of his body the entire man shewed implacable and savage both both in his size and glance, methinks, and even his laughter sounded to others like snorting.

    Justin
    October 22, 2002 - 05:01 pm
    Eloise: Try Corinthians 2. Look particularly at Chapter 11, verses 4-15. St Paul doesn't think much of women. Marriage, par example, is to be resorted to only to avoid fornication. He prefers that men remain single as he is single.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 22, 2002 - 06:16 pm
    Eloise:--I'll bet that if you look up the name "Iadeluca" in the Montreal phone book, you'll find it.

    Robby

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 22, 2002 - 06:45 pm
    Yes Robby, there are 14 of them. Any relatives of yours? I see that there are two parallel threads here. One in English if we want to discuss something not related to the plot in the book, and one in French to discuss the plot. Well, this is fantastic you know. I think that is what we should do. This way there will be something for everybody.

    Justin - Oui, je savais a, mais l'on peut choisir un verset et lui donner la signification qui nous convient, et quelqu'un d'autre ne l'entendra pas de la mme faon.

    Je crois que les femmes etaient voilees pour les dissimuler du regard des hommes comme vous avez devine, tout comme c'est la pratique chez les musulmans.

    Elo•se

    Marilou
    October 23, 2002 - 02:04 pm
    Hi everybody

    Long time no see. I was very occupied at my work. I read all the message I didn't read since few days. I am lost a little bit. Where are we in the book?

    I am agree to continue until the end of the book. Elo•se and Ginny are good discussion leaders. It is a hard job and I would'nt take your place. I vote for you mesdames.

    All the women in the book are in love, one with a married man, an other with a ÇgoujatÈ and the last with God. What will be happen for each of them...I don't know but I suppose it will not always pleasant for her.

    I have to go for today, I will try to come back before the week-end.

    P.S. M. Justin, les femmes mettent un chapeau pour ne pas avoir froid ˆ la tte.

    Marilou.

    Justin
    October 23, 2002 - 06:15 pm
    Marilou: Trs bien. Il fait froid dans la tete.

    Ginny
    October 23, 2002 - 06:26 pm
    Bon Soir, Marilou, delighted to see you back, thank you for your kind words, I personally owe Eloise my life here and we all owe her a superlative WELL DONE (how does one say that en francais) for the tremendous job she is doing in this discussion, I'm so proud of her.

    I agree, I read thru Chapter 3 in the tire store yesterday, came runnning in to post it and realized I don't have an inkling where we are. Chapter 3 reminds me of Ivanhoe, does it anybody else? I have a million questions but I don't want to spoil it for anybody, where are we all?

    I am struggling with the mention of Septimius Severus, read his biography, not seeing things about the Hippodrome, need to look further.

    Roslyn, the PIrages catalogue came yesterday and the prices are astronomical, they are WAY out of my league this time (Pirages has illluminated manuscripts and leaves for sale as well as a lot of other books, etc. and usually they are reasonable but he's come across a treasure chest apparently, some leaves are $20,000!!!!!!!!!! You'd never know we were in a recession!!!

    I'll have to look at those in the catalogue only. haahahaha

    There IS one nice set, very cheap but unfortunately 15th c, that's a little late for me, but we'll see. Check out his catalogue, if you all like: Phillip Pirages (Whoops! This is their rare book catalogue, the one with the illuminated manuscripts must not be up on the server yet).

    Lots of questions, ou sont nous dans cette livre?

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 23, 2002 - 07:07 pm
    My Marilou - How proud of you I am. Writing in English helps you to speak it.

    Folks, I want to remind you that Marilou posted in English. In English. I am so happy that she did it.

    Marilou traite Bohemond de "gougat", un homme mal eleve et grossier. Pensez-vous qu'il est vraiment un gougat, mais plut™t un guerrier comme bien d'autres qui devore la vie. Il me fait penser ˆ Napoleon, ce beau mec, pas vous?

    Elo•se

    Roslyn Stempel
    October 24, 2002 - 05:40 am
    Continuez vos efforts en anglais. Sauf un ou deux mots votre ecriture est parfait. La notre en francais est souvent moins admirable Je vous remercie bien pour le mot "goujat" qu'exprime bien le caractere de Bohemond. J'etais etonnee que le noble Pere Ascelin manquait le courage d' arreter les actions seduisants de Bohemond vers la petite innocente, Alais. Est-ce une peche, n'intervener au nom du bon Dieu afin de prevenir sa fait?

    Ros

    Ros

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 24, 2002 - 11:55 am
    J'ai trouve ce lien interessant qui parle de l'Hippodrome de Constantinople et si vous allez plus loin dans les liens, vous trouverez aussi d'autres sites sur la region et l'epoque que nous visitons en ce moment avec Les Peregrines. Apparemment, il pouvait contenir cent mille spectateurs. Enorme b‰timent.

    Alors qu'ils s'apprtent ˆ assister ˆ une course hippique o Marianos, le fils d'Icasia et d'Antronic va montrer toute son arrogance, sa jeunesse, sa beaute et comment il est vraiment le fils de sa mre.

    HIPPODROME


    Elo•se

    Ginny
    October 24, 2002 - 01:03 pm
    Eloise! What a marvelous link thank you soo much, and there is our Septimius Severus who DID build the Hippodrome! He of the Arch of Septimius Severus in Rome visible in this photo: (click to enlarge)
    The Forum 2002
    click to enlarge

    That of course is the Forum in Rome, the white arch in the center of the photo is one of three remaining triumphal arches in Rome, I took that picture and the brick house looking thing behind it is the Senate House.

    Up close the Arch of Septimius Severus looks as if it's melting, the figures are literally melting looking, it's quite striking.




    I have found an old illustration of the Hipposdrome as it was then, with Emperor and all and will be adding it and some other illustrations to the heading.




    Having finished Chapter 3 (I hope that's where you all are?) I need to say that at the end it's like Ben Hur, isn't it? Quite picturesque and all, you really get the flavor.

    What's wrong with Berthe? Am I the only one in the dark?

    I feel sorry for Flaminia, I blush too, all the time, (goes with her hair, no?) flaimg face too? hahahaha It's very annoying when it happens to me, and when you least expect it. What's going on with this Andronic? His wife doesn't seem to appreciate it, whatever it is? hahahaha

    Why did SHE faint?

    At one point the action reminds me of the Palio in Siena, the villages and neighborhoods each having their own champion, and colors, it's quite colorful and quite the picture, isn't it?

    When the Emperor came in I marvelled at their degree of pageantry? I note they seem to call themselves the New Romans, what is meant by that?

    I thought (have you seen Gormenghast? The development of pagentry?) Anyway, I marvelled at the show of it all, the degree of pomp, do you suppose they...where would they have gotten this?

    Two words I was not sure of: Carcares?

    ??

    and Cathisma. This seems to be a structure? Is it a cathedral or basilica or church? I am confused over what it is? I have some magnificent photos of Saint Sophia and the Sepuilcre in other views to be putting up soon.

    What's going on between the Greeks and the French in chapter 3, I can see there's a problem but am not sure what it is? I hate to show ignorance, but there it is!!

    Why does Icasia seem to feel so strongly: "Il est fou! Il est fou!" Is she thinking that people could get hurt and thus spoil their chances later on for the Crusade or what?

    Marilou, your English is much better than my French will ever be, you put me to shame!

    Sharon, looking forward to your return when your company leaves! (I hope that's what you said!)

    ginny

    Roslyn Stempel
    October 24, 2002 - 03:57 pm
    Ginny, il me semble qu'Icasia pendant qu'elle avait grand fierte a cause de son fils elle avait au meme temps grand peur pour son bien-etre. Dans l'angoisse de voir son danger elle s'evanouit. Malgre son hauteur, malveillance, et mechancete vers les peregrines, apres tout c'est une mere, n'est-ce pas?

    Ros

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 24, 2002 - 04:32 pm
    Bonsoir-I am posting from Eloise's computer.

    M. Justin, I believe what I told you about woman and hat. When I thought at stone age, it was a very cold period and I am sure it was at this time then the women began to put something on her head.It was a surviving question. The answer sometime are simple but the evolution complicate the simplicity.

    And no Eloise Bohemond is not a valeureux guerrier. He was'nt a beau mec, he was a real "sale type" qui faisait tout ce qu'il avait envi et c'est seulement parce qu'il etait plus fort que les autres qu'il pouvait faire cela. C'est un "minus" qui avait la force de son c™te.

    Je vous laisse, vous souhaite un bon week-end.

    Marilou

    Justin
    October 24, 2002 - 06:16 pm
    Bohemond etait sale type dans le corps d'un dieu.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 25, 2002 - 07:10 am
    Vous me faites craquer HaHaHa. Beau mec, sale type, minus..

    Mais j'y pense, n'est-ce pas un homme comme a dont rvent les jeunes filles mme aujourd'hui? Bohemond n'etait-il pas un hero? et s'il etait Don Juan en plus? Ala•s en etait folle et rien ne servait de lui reprocher son engouement. Sa soeur, Brunissen elle-mme lui pardonnait ce grand amour.

    Le pre Ascelin ne pouvait que prier pour elle, que pouvait-il faire de plus. Bohemond etait le commandant en chef de l'armee et personne n'oserait se mettre au travers de son chemin. Il n'aurait pas apprecie de se faire reprimander par le pre Ascelin qui ne semblait ne pas se soucier outre mesure des ecarts de conduites d'Ala•s.

    Les filles, mme adolescentes, etaient des femmes en ce temps-lˆ et elles devaient prendre toutes leur responsabilites et subir toutes les consequences de leurs actes.

    Pendant ce temps, Flaminia etait egalement surprise de l'empleur de son attirance pour le bel Andronic et elle croyait pourvoir surmonter cette attirance avec multiples appels ˆ Dieu.

    Je crois qu'Ala•s se sentait moins coupable de succomber ˆ Bohemond que Flaminia de desirer Andronic parce qu'elle etait plus entire dans ses convictions religieuses. Etait-ce une question de temperament?

    Up to now, do you see that the author does not give Landry a large space in this novel and centers all the plot on the three girls. Is it deliberate? is it a women's book?

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    October 25, 2002 - 07:36 am
    Super question, Eloise, I noticed not much on Landry myself.

    What makes a "women's book?" In contrast to a man's? Super question it will be interesting to hear the answers!!!




    In our brand new heading donw masterfully by Pat W, we have three new illustrations two of which are quite unique, and which pertain to Chapter 3, I hope you will find them of interest: (I'm sure Justin will) and they are, in no particular order:


    This is the quite spectacular choir of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, in Jerusalem.

    This was added to the Byzantine rotunda enclosing the Tomb of Christ and was consecrated on 15 July 1149, exactly fifty years after the crusader?s capture of the city. ---The Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusades






    Hippodrome: click to enlarge.


    If you will click on this picture you will be able to see one of the few early representations of the Hippodrome showing a triumphal procession so you can get the feel of the excitement of it.

    This shows a later Emperor, the Ottoman Emperor Suleyman the Magnificant?(1520-1566), [who] rides in triumph through Constantinople?s hippodrome. In the background, three statues looted during a recent successful campaign against the Hungarians are displayed as a column.


    The third piece is really astounding, and I apologize for the quality but have blown it up so you can see it, Pat W has done wonders with it, also:


    Urban preaches the First Crusade:
    click to enlarge




    Here Urban II preaches the First Crudade:

    His call to the Crusade is found in the upper right panel, his preaching about Christ?s redemption and death in Jerusalem appears in the upper left panel, where the Holy Places are imagined defiled by the Muslims (in the lower right panel) in the form of idol worshipers, and a pilgrim or crusader worships at the Holy Sepulchre (below left) which is the goal of the Crusade.

    Stunning piece of work for our reading. All three of these are from The Oxford Illustrated Guide to the Crusades.

    ginny

    Sharon E
    October 25, 2002 - 08:10 am
    Mes invites sont partis ce matin. Donc je peux ecrire ici encore une fois. Quand mon mari et moi avons visite Jerusulem, nous avons visite l'Eglise de Sainte Sepulchre (?) et aussi l'Eglise du Nativite ˆ Bethlehem. La premire etait trs ornee ˆ la mode des Grecs, mais elle etait trs impressionnante. J'ai eu des problmes avec La Terre Sainte parceque la realite n'etait pas la mme que mes images mentales formees de la Bible et des histoires que j'ai apprises comme enfant. Aussi je n'y etais pas assez longtemps pour l'assimuler.

    Je n'ai pas encore fini le 3em chapitre ˆ cause de mes invites mais j'essaierai le lire ce soir. Sharon

    Justin
    October 25, 2002 - 05:24 pm
    The church of the Holy Sepulchre was constructed by Constantine in the 4th century. It was damaged by the Saracens and rebuilt about 1140 CE. It was partially destroyed again in 1808 and rebuilt shortly after.In the rebuilding process the church acquired Romanesque characteristics. The dome rests on pendatives as does Hagia Sophia.





    Many basilcan churches of this period were built over the tomb of a saint with the high altar just over the tomb. The south transept is dedicated to the crusaders where three chapels honor their service. The main entrance is in the north transept. Its position forces every entrant to pass the Sepulchre before taking any other position in the church. The laity stand during Mass and were often confined in the cloister.

    Justin
    October 25, 2002 - 06:56 pm
    The church of the Holy Sepulchre is a most unusual church. I have the plan and foot print of the church of the Holy Sepulchre in front of me to help with orientation of the picture you show Ginny.

    The plan shows the Sepulchre in the west end. The photo we are looking at shows a bema and a raised altar. Not the sepulchre. I don't see the sepulchre or the ciborium above the tomb so I think we are facing east, looking through the choir to the altar in this picture.

    The picture taker must be facing away from the Sepulchre and toward the apse and ambulatory in the eastern end where three radiating chapels lie off the ambulatory. That's the expected orientation.

    However, the plan does not show a raised bema which appears in the picture. and on the north side of the ambulatory there are stairs descending to an enclosed cloister.There is no narthex that I can see and the transept is unbalanced.

    The church of Charlemagne at Aix la Chapelle is similar in construction. But the Holy Sepulchre is unusual in that there is no narthex in the west, access is in the north transept and a cloister lies just behind the ambulatory with access by stairs from the ambulatory itself. More than that the photo and the plan differ about a raised bema and the unbalanced character of the transepts destroys the illusion of a cruciform shape. I know there is a lot of technical jazz in here and I am sorry but I needed it to figure out our orientation in the picture. Most shots of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre show the Sepulchre itself and not the choir and altar.

    Justin
    October 25, 2002 - 07:05 pm
    Of more interest than the picture perhaps, is that our friends will see this church when they enter Jerusalem. It will have more of the original characteristics than we see to day. The Church will have been damaged by the Saracens confirming in the minds of the Crusaders the evil nature of the Saracens and the reason for them being there in Jerusalem.

    Justin
    October 25, 2002 - 07:13 pm
    The laity were often confined behind a choir screen during Mass. In the case of The Holy Sepulchre there was no confining screen and it was not possible to have then attend Mass and yet be outside in the cloister. Had I the opportunity I would have erased the sentence in my first post referring to the cloister. It is not accurate.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 25, 2002 - 07:37 pm
    CHURCH OF THE HOLY SEPULCHRE IN JERUSALEM

    Thanks Justin for this most interesting historical information. The link gives us a panoramic view of the church and you can either freeze a particular view or just let it slowly scan around inside and it also gives a view of the outside of the church.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    October 25, 2002 - 11:06 pm
    Buildings have encroached upon the Church of the Holy Sepulchre to such an extent that all that is visible on the exterior is the entrance of the west transept and the back of the rotunda. The choir and apse which is visible in the picture above is probably from the early 12th century and the rotunda from a much earlier period, perhaps even a Constantinian period. Capitals appear to be duplicated and column bases are simplistic in both parts of the church but the flooring and the marble in the side altar and other stone is clearly much older in the rotunda.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 26, 2002 - 04:49 am
    BOHEMOND

    Vous verrez que ce personnage, qui prend beaucoup de place dans le coeur d'Ala•s, est en effet un grand general de l'armee franque et Anne Comnne le souponne d'avoir des motifs autres que celui d'aller delivrer le tombeau du Christ, celui de faire de nouvelles conqutes, rien d'autre que l'empire Bizantin.

    Pat W - Thanks for your wonderful work on the headings. We appreciate the time and effort you put in making this discussion so interesting.

    Thanks Ginny for your support, I don't know what I would do without you.

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    October 26, 2002 - 05:17 am
    Eloise thank you for that excellent link (and the nice remarks), to the church and also to Bohemond. WHY have I heard of Tancred and not Bohemond?

    It also explains my question on the Greek/ Frank animosity, very nicely as well.

    On your question now in the heading of men's ane women's books, I remain obsessed with it. Do men have to have a lot of male characters to read about? Women can read a book starring all male charcters, do men need to have at least one before they are interested? I think that's a fascinating question, can't get it out of my head, what do the rest of you think?

    Justin, many thanks for the additional information on the Choir, it helps to put it in perspective, is there something you'd like me to remove from one of your posts, I'd be glad to?

    What do you all think about the women's book/ man's book thing?

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 26, 2002 - 05:51 am
    I didn't know this was going to obsess you Ginny, I thought everybody felt the same way about books, but perhaps not, I should explain what I meant by a man's book versus a woman's book.

    To give a simple example I wonder how many men read Harlequin Romance books? It has nothing to do with how many male or female characters are in the book. It is the story itself, whether the plot centers on war, or conflicts that can only solved through fighting, in other words.

    That is not to say that women don't like to read about war and large conflicts, but by the tone of the book we can usually tell what the author is interested about.

    Bourin is definitely a woman's book!!!! although we have men here reading it, I really appreciate that and I thank you, but........ OOOOhhhh! please don't cut my head off for this.

    Elo•se

    Roslyn Stempel
    October 26, 2002 - 01:05 pm
    Ginny, although it's against my principles to encourage such digressions from the main topic, I want to comment on your question, which is by no means a novel one.

    In the field of Kiddie Lit a division into these categories occurs at about the third-grade reading level. It is seen as a given that while girls will read books with boys as the central characters and boy-appropriate actions as the theme, boys will seldom do the reverse. On the other hand, I would not expect that a substantial proportion of adult women would choose "women's books" in preference to works that might seem more nearly gender-neutral or male-oriented.. As I spoke earlier of Carol Shields I recalled that there was some discussion about whether she could in fact have done a competent job of "Larry's Party" because the central character was a man. (I thought she did splendidly.) Reynolds Price has written novels with a female first-person narrator, as of course did the authors of "Pamela," "Moll Flanders," and "Vanity Fair." . Aside from the psychic profiles, most people would differentiate between a plot involving sports, firearms,hunting, or dangerous exploration and one concerned with a lonely woman in search of a loving man, or spiritual liberation, or self-realization that does not entail romance, though one which features daring adventures, exploitation, fortune-hunting, or crime might qualify.

    One might speculate whether this is part of the intense, often unconscious, socializing process in middle childhood. My younger daughter has commented that her children often exchange toys -- but Ariana plays house with the soldiers while Daniel chooses to set up war games with the housekeeping family.

    If you're interested in delving into the earlier feminist literature you should find many discussions about this topic.Actually this is a serious subject and not to be dismissed lightly with pat answers.

    Ros

    Justin
    October 26, 2002 - 03:50 pm
    I am a man with a wife, three daughters, four grandaughters, and a female-spayed cocker. The heavy influence of women in my life has fostered an awareness of women's needs and attitudes which makes me a nontypical male. When my girls were interested in dance, I did several seasons of ballet theatre. When my girls were interested in voice, I did several seasons of opera. I still enjoy opera. If I had had boys it would have been baseball games and hockey. I have read Pamela and Clarissa, Moll Flanders, and Vanity Fair. I see these as women's books. I have also read Jane Austin and Willa Cather. I enjoyed these works perhaps because I am familiar with female motives and responses but also because I was interested in the technical aspects of Richardson's works. I do not enjoy reading trivial material and so do not read the "romance" novelists. I rarely watch movies and almost never watch fictional TV. I must come away from a book feeling enriched in some way. I think that's possible with books written by but not necessarily for women.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 27, 2002 - 03:49 am
    Ë l?hoppodrome

    Enfin la famille conna”tra la mysterieuse Icasia dans la loge reservee aux Danielis pour la course. Nous pourvons presque voir chaque pice de vtement qu?elle porte et l?auteur n?est pas tendre envers elle pour la decrire. mince presque maige, avec des formes androgyne, des jambes courtes, elle avait revtu une precieuse tunique vert-p‰le, brodee de fleurs et de feuillages?ses cheveux blonds, nattes et torsades?en echaffaudage complique certainement ne nous offre pas une image flatteuse de la femme d?Andronic et dejˆ la tension montera encore pour la rendre plus hostile envers la famille de Garin qu?elle ignore et semble mepriser.

    Soudainement Flaminia se demande ce qu?ils sont venus faire ˆ l?hippodrome alors que durant des mois, ils avaient marche de long mois, traverses des rivires, vogue sur la mer escalades de hautes montagnes avec des centaines de croises pour se rendre ˆ Jerusalem et soudainement l?inutilite de ces courses fastueuses se confrontaient dans sa tte avec l?objectif plus noble qu?ils s?etaient fixes au depart.

    Comme un pressentiment, le malaise de Flaminia ne fut que plus intense lorsqu?elle apprit que sa grand?mre, restee ˆ la maison, se trouvait plus mal et ils se precipitent vers la sortie pour rentrer ˆ la maison avec Andronic qui les accompagnent malgre les reproches de sa femme de ne pas s?occuper assez d?elle.

    Pouvons-nous penser que la maladie de Berthe la Hardie va influencer la date du depart de la famille Garin pour continuer leur route?

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 27, 2002 - 05:00 am
    Thank you Ros for your post and once in a while it's OK too to step aside to air opinions. It makes us know each other better and,

    Justin, I am so glad to know about your family after all the time I have known you from posts and like my son-in-law said once, I don't mind being surrounded with women, in fact I love it. They have a boy of 9 and a girl of 11 who both receive an immense amount of love and it shows in their superb behavior.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    October 28, 2002 - 07:38 pm
    Berthe La Hardie est malade. Quelq'un doit rester avec elle. Qui? Les armees preparent sortir. Ils sont entrer en Asie Minor ensuite le travers le Bosphorus. Comment? Les vaisseaux sont encore apparaitre.

    Ginny
    October 29, 2002 - 02:09 am
    Me, too, Justin, you seem a Renaissance Man to me, we're delighted to have you in our company!!

    So nobody here knows what's wrong with Berthe?

    Thank you very much, Justin for those additional facts ont he Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, that must be quite a complex, I keep seeing completely different photos of the place. And our little group is preparing to go there, and, maybe my French is not up to snuff, they hope to??

    IN order to "free" or to "regain" or to "capture" the Tomb, somebody is going to have to fight, no? I'm unclear, even now, on what our group (excpet for Landry, who I did notice Eloise, super point, is not having too much said about him) expects to be actually DOING?

    What a time! I think the book captures it very well, you can almost feel the differning emotions.

    (How do you like the knight on top of our schedule box?) Watch him for a minute!

    ginny

    Sharon E
    October 29, 2002 - 08:36 am
    Pretty cool, Ginny! Sharon

    Justin
    October 29, 2002 - 02:33 pm
    Ginny: That's a nifty knight you've added. How about an opponent on the right side?

    Marilou
    October 29, 2002 - 02:57 pm
    Bonjour tout le monde-

    MMe.Ginny, je ne veux pas vous faire de peine mais les choses vont trs mal pour Berthe la Hardie. Plus a va aller et moins Berthe sera hardie. Les maladies ˆ cette epoque ne pardonnait pas souvent.

    On lit que les gens allaient voir les courses ˆ l'Hippodrome mais ici mme ˆ Montreal, en 2002, les gens vont voir des courses de chevaux ˆ l'Hippodrome. C'est different mais presque pareil. Il y a des similitudes bizarres entre le moyen-‰ge et aujourd'hui; la guerre et les courses entre autres. Il y en a surement d'autres. Ë suivre...

    Je dois y aller, ˆ bient™t.

    Marilou

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 29, 2002 - 03:46 pm
    Ginny - Where did you get that knight? It's so great!!

    Vtus de courtes tuniques aux couleurs de leurs factions, serres dans une haute ceinture qui leur maintenaient fortement la taille et le buste, bottes, casques d'un bonnet cercle d'argent et retenu sous le manton par une jugulaire, un poignard ˆ la ceinture, les rnes enroulees autour du corps et le fouet entre les dents, les quatre cochers debout, penches en avant, n'etaient plus que regards aceres et mains de fer.

    Je me demande ˆ quoi un poignard peux bien servir dans une course, ou bien n'est-ce qu'une parure? Quelqu'un le sait? Et avec les rennes enroulees autour du corps, ils risquaient d'tres coinces et tra”nes sur le sol s'ils tombaient par terre. Je revois le film Ben Hur en lisant cela. Avec les mains qui tiennent les rennes, n'ont-ils pas d'autre place o mettre le fouet qu'entre les dents?

    Cette longue phrase, sans point, suffit pour nous mettre dans l'ambiance de la course ˆ l'hippodrome.

    Les spectateurs lanaient sur la piste leurs couvre-chefs (chapeaux), leur echarpes, leurs rubans, leurs peinges,...Ils sautaient, hurlaient, se tapaient dans le dos, s'embrassaient, prenaient Dieu ˆ temoin de l'habilete des Bleus et L'en (Dieu) remerciaient.

    On se croirait ˆ un match de baseball au stade des Yankees ˆ New York, mais ici c'est une balle qui determine la victoire ou la defaite ˆ la place des chevaux et les hommes ne coursent pas dans des chars, mais ˆ pied.

    Quel est la difference ou la ressemblance entre la course de chars ˆ l'hippodrome de Constantinople et un match de baseball au Yankee Statium de New York?

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    October 30, 2002 - 11:04 am
    haahah thank you, Guys our blue knight is a survivor of our old archived Timeline discussion, but, alas, his red buddy on the right did not make it, so he waves his spear at us I guess.

    I found some new combattants, but the site is down, will have to wait a bit, they REALLY go at each other, hahahha

    ginny

    Ginny
    October 30, 2002 - 12:04 pm
    YAY!

    Yay yay yay look HU I found? If you all had not asked I'd never have ever found him again, but look up in the heading at the Discussion Schedule!!

    Our old red knight !!!!!!!! I have not seen him in years, and know where I found him?

    Believe it or not he was in the Vampire Museum!!

    Boy I'm glad to see him again, it's been several YEARS!




    Now here is what I refrained from putting in the heading, you tell me, do you want to get between these Jousters (gives you a new feel for Chapter 3, huh?) hahaahahha

    Watch them a mo:

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    October 30, 2002 - 02:01 pm
    Merci Ginny comme vous travaillez bien, c'est formidable, maintenant relevons nos manches et discutons fermement Les Peregrines et ce qui va arriver ˆ Flaminia, Ala•s, Brunissen, Berthe, Icasia, Andronic et compagnie et comment vont-ils solutionner leurs problmes respectifs avec ces croises que ont envahis Constantinople et qui refont le plein avant de repartir pour Jerusalem.

    La famille va-t-elle repartir avec Berthe malade? Va-t-elle guerir pouvoir tre assez bien pour marcher? Vont-ils reprendre le bateau pour traverser le Bosphore comme dit Justin? Que va faire Flaminia du penchant qu'elle a developpe pour Andronic? Que va dire le Pre Ascelin de toute cette histoire?

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 2, 2002 - 07:37 am
    Boujour tout le monde. Comment allez-vous ce matin? Pour moi, la sante est bonne et la journee s?annonce bien.

    Les 3 filles de Garin etaient aurps de la malade lorsque Paschal, le fils adoptif d?Icasia et d?Andronic est entre pour les divertir. Ce petit bout d?homme si attachant et sincre. Dans ce passage, il demontre comment les familles du temps des croisades avaient aussi des difficultes dans leur menage et il deplorait le fait que son pre et sa mre se disputaient souvent et il ne savaient plus qui avait raison, elle ou lui et Paschal dit :

    Ç ?mes parents ne sont jamais d?accord sur la faon de nous elever. Marianos et moi. Mon pre est sevre. D?aprs ce que j?ai compris, il s?est f‰che avec mon frre. Ma mre, comme toujours, soutient Marianos contre mon pre. È

    Il me semble entendre des enfants d?aujourd?hui dire la mme chose. Lorsque les parents ne s?aiment plus, les enfants sont la cible des disputes des parents. Ils se sentent obliges de prendre parti soit pour l?un ou pour l?autre. Lorsque les enfants sont assez grands, ils peuvent comprendre chacun des c™te, mais s?ils sont petits, ils ne peuvent que se desesperer.

    Plus loin dans ce chapitre, notre Gabriel Attaliate, le frre d?Icasia entre dans la maisonnette ou loge les plerins et fait un effet spectaculaire :

    Ç Un homme apparut sur le seuil, Grand et mince, le visage glabre, la chevelure noire bouclee avec art, il etait vtu d?une tunique etroite et longue de soie chatoyante ou se jouaient toutes les nuances du rose, du mauve, et du violet, brodee de plumes et de fleurs stylisees??.une grosse medaille d?or dans laquelle etait ench‰sse un verre taille de couleur rouge qui lanait des reflets d?incendie. È

    Je vois trs bien cet personnage directement sorti des contes des Milles et une Nuits et toute sa personnalite est surprenante pour nous qui ne sommes pas habitues ˆ ce genre de costume sur une homme et mme si c?est un unuque, cela reste toujours un homme.

    Que pensez-vous de ce personnage? Aura-t-il un r™le dans le reste du roman? As-t-il une influence dans le deroulement de l?histoire lorsqu?il vont quitter Constantinople pour poursuivre leur plerinage?

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 2, 2002 - 11:55 am
    Boujour tout le monde. Comment allez-vous ce matin? Pour moi, la sante est bonne et la journee s?annonce bien.

    Hi! Everybody, I translated this post for those who wish to know what I wrote in English.

    Les 3 filles de Garin etaient aups de la malade lorsque Paschal, le fils adoptif d?Icasia et d?Andronic est entre pour les divertir. Ce petit bout d?homme si attachant et sincre. Dans ce passage, il demontre comment les familles du temps des croisades avaient aussi des difficultes dans leur menage et il deplorait le fait que son pre et sa mre se disputaient souvent et il ne savaient plus qui avait raison, elle ou lui et Paschal dit :

    The three girls were at Berthe?s bedside when Paschal, the adopted son of Icasia and Andronic came in to entertain them with his nice affectionate personally. In this short excerpt, he demonstrates how the families during the time of the crusades also had family problems similar to those we have these days between husband and wife who don?t get along any more. His mother and father often were quarreling and he didn?t know who was right between his father and his mother.

    Ç ?mes parents ne sont jamais d?accord sur la faon de nous elever. Marianos et moi. Mon pre est sevre. D?aprs ce que j?ai compris, il s?est f‰che avec mon frre. Ma mre, comme toujours, soutient Marianos contre mon pre. È

    ?my parent never agree on how to bring us up Marianos and I. My father is very severe. From what I heard, he is mad at my brother. My mother, as usual, supports Marianos against my father.

    Il me semble entendre des enfants d?aujourd?hui dire la mme chose. Lorsque les parents ne s?aiment plus, les enfants sont la cible des disputes des parents. Ils se sentent obliges de prendre parti soit pour l?un ou pour l?autre. Lorsque les enfants sont assez grands, ils peuvent comprendre chacun des c™te, mais s?ils sont petits, ils ne peuvent que se desesperer.

    I seem to hear children of today say the same thing. When parents don?t love each other, the children are the target of the parent?s dispute. They feel obliged to take sides. When children are big enough they can understand better, but when they are small, they can only despair.

    Plus loin dans ce chapitre, notre Gabriel Attaliate, le frre d?Icasia entre dans la maisonnette ou loge les plerins et fait un effet spectaculaire :

    Further in this chapter, Gabriel Attaliate, Icasia?s brother comes to visit the family and makes a spectacular entrance.

    Ç Un homme apparut sur le seuil, Grand et mince, le visage glabre, la chevelure noire bouclee avec art, il etait vtu d?une tunique etroite et longue de soie chatoyante ou se jouaient toutes les nuances du rose, du mauve, et du violet, brodee de plumes et de fleurs stylisees??.une grosse medaille d?or dans laquelle etait ench‰sse un verre taille de couleur rouge qui lanait des reflets d?incendie. È

    "A man appeared at the door, tall, slim, close shaved face, curly black hair artistically arranged, he was dressed in a long narrow tunic of shimmering silk where played all nuances of rose, mauve, violet embroidered with feathers and stylized flowers?.. a large gold medal encrusted with a fiery red stone,"

    Je vois trs bien cet personnage directement sorti des contes des Milles et une Nuits et toute sa personnalite est surprenante pour nous qui ne sommes pas habitues ˆ ce genre de costume sur une homme et mme si c?est un unuque, cela reste toujours un homme.

    I very well see that character directly coming out of the Thousand and One Nights and his whole personality is surprising for us who are not accustomed to this kind of costume on a man and even if this man is an eunuch he is still a man,

    Que pensez-vous de ce personnage? Aura-t-il un r™le dans le reste du roman? As-t-il une influence dans le deroulement de l?histoire lorsqu?il vont quitter Constantinople pour poursuivre leur plerinage?

    What do you think of this character? Will he have a big role in the rest of the novel? Does he have any influence in the unfolding of the story when they will leave Constantinople to pursue their crusade?

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 2, 2002 - 03:23 pm
    Correction - I translated this post for those who wish to know what I wrote in French instead of English.

    Sometimes I don't know what I am saying in either language!

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 4, 2002 - 07:05 am
    Bonjour les amis. Comment allez-vous? Let us continue with the intrigue shall we?

    At the end of Chapter 4, we find Berthe la Hardie on her deathbed and Flaminia in a gesture of tenderness towards her grandmother courageously decided to stay behind hoping that she will recover, but down deep knows that this is the end. Everyone else in the family prepares to move on in the next few days without them.

    As Landry and Pre Ascelin walk towards the harbor they are brought to the evidence that cities all have their thieves, their homeless and crime infested areas also.

    Because we seem to be at a bit of a stand still, I gather that it is best to move on and we will start with the Third Part, (strangely coming after chapter 4) June 25th to 30th October 1097.

    Maintenant les croises sont en guerre et le sang coule ˆ flot. Les filles vaques ˆ leur occupation pour soigner les blesses et s?occuper des soins quotidiens qu?une armee a besoin.

    now blood flows freely and the crusaders are at war. The girls busy themselves tending to the wounded, cooking and other female tasks

    Tout en accomplissant ces t‰ches, Brunissen et Ala•s nous informent que le fameux Bohemond va faire son entree dans la roman avec d?autres personnages historiques qui sont cite dans les premires pages.

    While they are doing that, Brunissen and Ala•s inform us that the famous Bohemond will make his entrance in the novel with other historical figures that are listed on the first pages of the book.

    Il y aura des episodes amoureuses car les deux filles ne sont pas differentes des autres femmes dans ce domaine, elles subissent les tourments de l?amour mme si cet amour est peche. Nous apprenons les intrigues dans les rangs de la noblesse Franaise.

    There will be romantic episodes because the two girls are not different from other women in that way, they suffer the torments of love even if this love is a sin. We learn about intrigues within the French aristocracy.

    Mabille, est la demi-s?ur de Bohemond et elle encourage son demi-frre ˆ seduire la petite Ala•s qu?il a ete choisi d?un seul regard vers elle. Ala•s essayait de cacher le plaisir que lui procurait la presence de son heros, mais sans succs. Son c?ur etait le plus fort.

    Mabille is the half-sister of Bohemond and she encourages her half-brother in seducing little Ala•s whom he chose with just one look in her direction. Ala•s tries to hide the pleasure that the presence of her hero brings her, but without success. Her heart is stronger.

    Eloise

    Ginny
    November 4, 2002 - 02:24 pm
    Zut alors! Are we past Chapter 4 already? I'm behind, I'm sorry to say, in my reading and it looks like a whole lot is about to happen, alas, I have the election tomorrow so Wednesday afternoon I'll try to catch up, sounds very exciting, thanks for keeping our own pilgrimage going here, Eloise!

    ginny

    audrine
    November 6, 2002 - 08:58 am

    audrine
    November 6, 2002 - 09:10 am
    Bonjour,

    Je voudrais obtenir le livre au dessus..la version franaise.

    J'ai une passion enorme pour la culture et l'histoire de la France. Je suis heureuse trouver cette discussion. Merci! Audrine

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 6, 2002 - 10:03 am
    Audrine - Bienvenue chez nous aux Peregrines. Je suis contente de vois voir. J'ai trouve ce livre dans des boutiques de livres usages ˆ Montreal pour quelques personnes et je pourrais peut-tre en trouver un autre pour vous lorsque j'irai sur la rue St. Denis la prochaine fois. Je vous enverrai un courriel ˆ ce sujet.

    Fantastique et revenez-nous.

    Elo•se

    GingerWright
    November 6, 2002 - 07:36 pm
    Eloise Thank You for putting English in Your posts as I have enjoyed knowing what the Book is about.

    Ginger

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 6, 2002 - 08:50 pm
    Ah Ha, maintenant nous savons que le but des premires croisades n?etait pas seulement de delivrer le Saint Sepulchre, c?etait aussi de conquerir des terres parce que :

    The whole exercise of the Crusades was perhaps not to deliver the Holy Sepulchre. It was also to acquire land because:

    "Le frre de Godefroi de Bouillon, Baudouin de Boulogne?avait amene avec lui femme et enfants, c?etait parce qu?il avait en vue quelque fructueux etablissement en Terre sainte. Mais c?etait peut-tre pure medisance."

    The brother of Godefroi de Bouillon, Beaudouin de Boulogne?had brought with him his wife and children because he had his sights on some profitable land in the Holy Land. But it was perhaps malicious gossip.

    Etablissement dans ce cas-ci veut dire territoire, ou terre. Pensez-vous qu?une femme avec ses enfants iraient s?etablir si loin de leur pays natal, parmi des gens qui ne parlent pas leur langue, alors que son mari serait parti ˆ la guerre durant de longues periodes de temps?

    I think that author means ?land? rather than establishment in this case. Do you think that his wife and children would go and establish themselves far from their native land among people who don?t speak their language when the husband would be called to war?

    Les femmes ici prodiguaient des soins aux blesses et aux malades. Elle etaient armees de "longues eguilles d?or avec lequelles elles sondaient les plaies."

    The women here provide care to the wounded and the sick. They were ?armed? with long gold needles with which they probed wounds. How about sterile needles? Is the fact that the needles are gold that they are not contaminated?

    Maintenant les croises sont en guerre et les blesses arrivent dans les tentes pour faire soigner leur blessures. La s?ur de Bohemond montre une cruaute aussi feroce envers l?ennemi que si elle combattait elle mme aux c™tes de son frre qui "songeait ˆ detruire la puissance Bizantine pour fonder en son lieu et place un empire normand englobant une bonne partie des rives et des ”les de la Mediterranee."

    Now the Crusaders are at war and the wounded arrive in the tents to have their wounds treated. Bohemond?s sister shows as fierce a cruelty towards the enemy as if she was besides her brother fighting who was. "thinking of destroying the Bizantine empire to establishd in its place a Norman empire incorporating a large part of the shores and the islands of the Mediterranean sea."

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 7, 2002 - 11:35 am
    "European society had survived the raids of the Magyars, Vikings, and Saracens, and its economy and society were recovering quickly. There was a new spirit of adventure apparent in the art, literature, an actions of the western Europeans. This was manifested at least partly in an increased popularity of pilgrimages -- journeys to visit distant holy places to worship there and view the relics of the saints. This was a religious activity, but the many of the pilgrims clearly enjoyed themselves like tourists in any age.

    Do you feel that the Crusaders "enjoyed" themselves as tourists would today?

    Elo•se

    Marilou
    November 7, 2002 - 12:02 pm
    Bonjour ˆ tous,

    Veuillez m'excuser de ce long silence. Je ne possde pas d'ordinateur personnel ˆ la maison je dois donc ecrire de mon poste de travail au bureau et comme mon patron ne me paie pas pour participer ˆ des groupes de discussion, mes interventions se font rares.

    Would you excuse me for this long silence. I don't have a personnal computer, except at my work and my boss don't pay me to participate at some discussions on senior net that is why I come rarely BUT...wake up everybody. All of us said we want to go until the end of the book so...where are you? What happens with us? Let's go don't give up!

    Nous penetrons dans le coeur des batailles. Batailles sanglantes pour la reconqute des territoires. Il leur faut conquerir ou reconquerir tout ce qui se trouve sur le chemin qui les mnent ˆ Jerusalem et tout cela se fera dans le sang . C'est fou tout ce que l'on doit perdre pour enfin gagner, mais je me demande toujours si toutes ces pertes valent ce que nous parvenons ˆ gagner???

    Je dois vous quitter. Ë bient™t...Marilou

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 7, 2002 - 01:33 pm
    Marilou...HaHaHaHaaaaaa. Well done, good for you my friend.

    "All of us said we want to go until the end of the book so...where are you? What happens with us? Let's go don't give up!"

    She also said:

    "Nous penetrons dans le coeur des batailles. Batailles sanglantes pour la reconqute des territoires. Il leur faut conquerir ou reconquerir tout ce qui se trouve sur le chemin qui les mnent ˆ Jerusalem et tout cela se fera dans le sang . C'est fou tout ce que l'on doit perdre pour enfin gagner, mais je me demande toujours si toutes ces pertes valent ce que nous parvenons ˆ gagner???"

    We penetrate in the heart of the battle. Bloody battles for the reconquest of territories. They must conquer or reconquer the land they pass through on their way to Jerusalem and the battles will be fought in blood. It's crazy everything that one must lose in order to win, and I am always wondering if all these losses are worth what we finally win?

    Super point Marilou, gaining in the end means losing first.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    November 7, 2002 - 06:09 pm
    Je commence lire en chapitre quatre. Ici nous parlons de la malade, Berthe et sa bien-tre. Nous parlons des Nouveaux Romains qui sont ici parce que Constantin L'emperor du Romains se divise le royaume- orientale et occidentale. Suivre que, nous sommes Romains touts- Orientales et Occidentales.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 8, 2002 - 03:47 am
    Justin - Good to have you back. We have gone ahead without you I am afraid my friend, and the family leaves Flaminia caring for her grand'mother who was too sick to travel while the others join the army. Now, we find the Crusaders at war as they are fighting for every inch of territory they go through on their way to Jerusalem. Blood takes center stage and the women are ministering the wounds.

    Interesting that you mention that we all have an 'oriental heritage' as we have studied in Durant's Story of Civilization.

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 8, 2002 - 06:07 am
    As we read about the ladies in this novel, the Crusaders were fighting heavy battles. We see how Bohemond is capturing Antioch in this link.

    THE SEIGE OF ANTIOCH

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 8, 2002 - 10:39 am
    Mes chers amis, ce lien est fabuleux. This link in French lets you read what is being said helping us for once to hear the words that are written. It is wonderful for those who want to know how to pronounce the French language. At the same time, it explains the Capetien dynasty, the ancestors of the Kings of France in the Crusades with sound machine files and thumbnails that lead to larger images.

    HERE

    Elo•se

    GingerWright
    November 8, 2002 - 11:07 am
    Eloise, Thank you so much for the clickable. I have been to it and shall return for more of it.

    Sharon E
    November 8, 2002 - 12:20 pm
    Oui,Elo•se, le lien est merveilleux. Je regrette que je ne vienne pas trs souvent, mais je suis trop occupee quelquefois et je n'ai pas lu beaucoup, mais bient™t, je retournerai avec la connaissance des 4em et 5em chapitres. Sharon

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 8, 2002 - 01:11 pm
    Ginger, Sharon, yes this link has 6 pages of remarkably colorful and precice images of the 5 Crusades and historical facts with each image in French. The first two pages have sound track included.

    I learned how Eleonore d'Aquitaine was on one crusades with the French, then another one with the English.

    I am starting to understand the whole purpose behind the crusades, economic, religious and cultural. The crusaders brought back home new fruits and vegetables never before eaten. Fabrics potteries, jewelry, works of art wars and conquests inevitably spreads far and wide.

    The crusades weakened all the kingdoms involved for a time, but by the same token, has kind of democratized relations between the nobility and their lesser subjects as they had to interact closely for months and years.

    Ginny, I hope someone can put that link above so we can go back to it now and them to refresh our memory. Thanks.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    November 8, 2002 - 07:11 pm
    On voit si souvant en L'Ancien Testament l'avertissment tuer et ne tuer pas. Cet viens ˆ Dieu. Nous le voyons encore en Les P. "Dieu le veuille', dit les croises. Mais ˆ la meme temps le Dieu says " Tu ne tueras pas". Brunissen le dit encore en chapitre quatre. Comment fait-on le resoud?

    Traude S
    November 9, 2002 - 11:06 am
    Chere Elo•se,

    malheureusement il ne m'etait pas possible de vous joindre ici plus t™t, et je vous demande pardon. Il me semble qu'il n'y a jamais assez de temps de faire tout ce que je desire.

    Neanmoins j'ai pris tant de plaisir ˆ lier les postes, en admirant les illustrations merveilleuses ainsi que votre direction incomparable d'une discussion vraiment extraordinaire.



    J'aimerais beaucoup d'en pouvoir participier, pourtant je n'ai pas reussi ˆ trouver le livre, et je ne me souviens plus de la source que vous aviez indique auparavant. Franchement je me trouve ˆ bout d'imagination. Pourriez-vous me prter votre conseil SVP ?

    Mille merci en avance.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 9, 2002 - 04:36 pm
    Traude S - Merci de vos compliments et de votre enthousiasme. Je ne crois pas qu'il serait trop tard pour commencer si vous avez lu les postes jusqu'ici.

    Je vous ai envoye un courriel avec plusieurs numero de telephones ici ˆ Montreal, ils vous enverraient surement le livre par la poste et peut-tre bien avant que j'ai le temps d'y aller moi-mme. Laissez-moi savoir tout de mme.

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 10, 2002 - 04:49 pm
    As I have more time, this is a synopsis of what happened untill now in Les Peregrines, for those who have started late in the discussion and would like to know in English what the book is about and who the characters are. Historically it is fairly accurate, but most of the characters are fictional. The links give us a good idea of history aside from what we learned in school about the crusades.

    The book starts in Brindisi in Italy, when the crusaders have walked all the way from their hometown of Chartres in France, from where they will board ships to cross the Adriatic Sea and continue on land towards Jerusalem to ?deliver? the sepulcher of Christ from Muslim infidels. The historical facts are accurate and the author incorporates historical figures into the plot. The book is about a family consisting of Garin, the father of 3 adolescent girls, Brunissen 19, Flaminia 17, Ala•s 15 and Landry her twin brother, Berthe La Hardie, Garin?s mother and Father Ascelin, a Bishop who is Garin?s brother-in-law. The father dies during the crossing and Father Ascelin now becomes the head of the family and he feels responsible for the welfare of the orphans. Back home, this family?s business was book binding and ?enluminures?, decoration and adornment in the pages of books during the Middle Ages.

    Their stopover in Constantinople was a welcome respite from arduous living in tents without material comfort that this family was used to back home in Chartres. The author describes in some well-documented details the kind of clothes they wore, the food they ate, the kind of weapons they carried in the Middle Ages.

    Berthe?s illness was mentioned at the beginning letting us predict that she might not survive the ordeal much longer. A rich family in Constantinople of court appointed perfume makers offers them hospitality in a mansion exquisitely described in detail. Their hosts are Icasia, her husband Andronic, his father Theophane and the couple?s two boys of 19 and 13. Icasia?s antipathy towards the family?s invasion of her property will become a major link to further drama as the story unfolds.

    The crusaders leave Constantinople to fight for every inch of territory that they will come across on the road to Jerusalem and the Garin family is divided as Flaminia stays behind to look after her dying grand?mother. Icasia has proven to be even more than an uncooperative hostess as it was her father-in-law who had invited them on their stopover in Constantinople and she resented the intrusion.

    As life will have it, two unlikely people are attracted to each other against all reason. Flaminia and a married man, Andronic. We will know what happens later about that as now the plot has been moved to the battlefield and much blood will be shed while the women tend to the wounded. Ala•s during all this is falling in love for Bohemond de Tarante the General of the French army and Father Ascelin is helpless in preventing the worst from happening.

    Elo•se

    GingerWright
    November 10, 2002 - 06:07 pm
    Eloise, Thank You.

    Justin
    November 11, 2002 - 03:59 pm
    An excellent summary. Thank you, Eloise.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 11, 2002 - 05:20 pm
    Thank you Ginger and Justin for your encouragement.

    et nous lisons: Bohemond songerait ˆ detruire la puissance byzantine pour fonder en son lieu et place un empire normand englobant une bonne partie des rives et des ”les Mediterranee.....Quand on cnna”t Bohemond d'un peu prs, on le sait capable de bien des choses...Il est intelligent, ambitieux, brave et ruse...Bohemond qui se trouve tre le fils unique d'une premire epouse, modeste Normande qui n'etait point noble.....Est-il bon chretien? chuchota le meunier. Je me suis laisse dire que, s'il etait l'allie du pape en Italie, il pouvait tout aussi bien traiter avec les Turcs, ici, s'il y trouvait son intert.

    And we read here that Bohemond was an intelligent, ambitious, brave and cunning man. He was the only son of his father's first wife and his mother was not of the noble birth and the gossip continues. Is he a good Christian at least? whispers a soldier and he continues saying that if he had been the pope's ally he could also very well be consorting with the Turcs from here, if it was in his interest to do so.

    Can we assume from this that the men under his command suspected Bohemond of having other ambition that to deliver Jerusalem from the 'infidels'?

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 12, 2002 - 03:23 am
    Les eglises byzantines un peu avant les croisades. Les catacombes.

    EARLY CHRISTIAN AND BYSANTINE ART

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 12, 2002 - 04:18 pm
    CRUSADES STARTED FROM COLOGNE, FRANCE

    I don't know about you but I am learning a lot from researching about the Crusades. This link talks about a reconcilliation walk starting on Easter Sunday in 1996. The marchers will walk the same route the Crusaders walked. In Cologne, the marchers stopped at the Turkish Mosque and asked the Immam for forgiveness. The Immam in turn asked to be forgiven Muslim's sins against Christians and Jews.

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 12, 2002 - 04:23 pm
    I am wondering where are the readers of Les Peregrines? Will we be able to continue on? Is anybody interested in the story? I am, how about you?

    Faithfully yours, Elo•se

    GingerWright
    November 12, 2002 - 05:45 pm
    Eloise, I have Enjoyed Your clickables and thank You for them as it says alot to me. However it maybe that people do want to post in French so I am so sorry for interupting this discussion. Please accept my apologies. Ginger

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 13, 2002 - 03:08 pm
    Ginger please you are not interrupting this discussion my dear. It's OK to post in English. Thank you for being here.

    Elo•se

    GingerWright
    November 13, 2002 - 04:42 pm
    OH Eloise, Thank You for your Kindness to me.Looking forward to seeing you in Calgary. Smile.

    Ginger

    Ginny
    November 14, 2002 - 12:52 pm
    WOW, Eloise, WOW, am back from the beach and rushing to catch up and I see our Pat W already has those new links in the heading, what a super job you're doing in here, it's a delight to see and those LINKS are to die for, lemme get thru Chapter 4 tonight and post again, that business about the motivation of the Crusdaders sure hit home with me, at Carcassonne they make a big point of it in "talking" to the ghost of one of those Crusaders who fell (I've read so many names of so many crusaders at this point they are beginning to blur).

    But isn't it strange how this stuff stays with you? When you're out and looking at something quite different suddenly you'll think of it, I can tell you I don't know which would be worse, getting an injury in war back then or being tended, good heavens on the long golden needles, whatever for? Infection lancing? UGG, how did anybody ever live?

    Back in a mo, many thanks to Pat W for getting up those super sites in the heading so quickly, super work!

    Wonderful job, Eloise, you are to be commended!

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 15, 2002 - 07:45 am
    Welcome back Ginny, The Beach you said? We are in winter here in Montreal, but it's not too cold, just miserable.

    Durant les repas, il semble que la guerre fait une pause..."l'heure de remission..." dit le Pre Ascelin et la famille se reunit autour d?une table pour bavarder un peu et il raconte comment la traversee des Alpes en Suisse fut meurtrire pour les Croises. Presque toute la bande des croises qui traversaient un defile montagneux furent tues par des brigands excepte la jeune Beatrix, 16 ans, (blonde egalement) et elle refusait de retourner en France aprs la mort de ses parents c?est alors que le Pre Ascelin l?a choisi comme servante de la famille Garin.

    Pour moi c?est etrange de lire que lorsque venait le temps de manger, les deux camps prenaient une pause et comme si de rien n?etait, les femmes mettaient la nappe blanche sur la table et tous echangeaient ˆ propos de tout et de rien.

    During meal time, it looks like the war was taking a break?..."the hour of remission..."? said the Pre Ascelin and the family gathered around the table to chat while he tells about how the Crusaders were massacred by brigands while there were crossing a mountainous region in theAlps in Switzerland and they were all killed except 16 yr old Beatrix and she refused to go back to France after her parents died, then the Pre Ascelin brought her to serve as a maid to the Garin family.

    It is strange for me that when it came time to sit down to eat, both armies took time off as if it was only natural, set the table with a ?white? tablecloth and enjoyed chatting during the meal like if they didn?t know about the dead and wounded all around them.


    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 15, 2002 - 10:34 am
    Les Croisades nous font voir un aspect de l'evolution des moeurs depuis 900 ans. Toute la France etait Catholique, malheur ˆ ceux qui se mettaient ˆ part en adoptant une autre croyance religieuse. Ils etaient bannis de la societe, chasses de leur famille et ils etaient mis ˆ part des autres dans une situation intollerable et souvent tortures.

    Je pense ˆ la liberte que nous avons aujourd'hui dans le monde occidental. Si nous avons une autre opinion que celle qui est populaire, c'est tout-ˆ-fait acceptable, mme admirable diront certains.

    Croyez-vous qu?ils pouvaient protester contre les directives du Vatican de partir en croisade?

    The history of the Crusades lets us observe how much we have evolved since 900 years ago. France was Catholic perhaps at 100% and woe to those who would start to believe in another religion. They would be banned for society, thrown out of their family perhaps tortured. They were alone in an intolerable situation.

    I am thinking of the liberty we have today in the West of practicing the religion of our choice. If we have another opinion than the popular one, it is quite acceptable, even admirable some would say.

    Do you think that the pilgrims had a choice of protesting against the Vatican?s orders of joining the Crusades?

    Elo•se

    Justin
    November 15, 2002 - 06:08 pm
    It is important to recognize that we are here treating with not only the First crusade but also exclusively with the Baron's crusade which was one of two major segments in the first Crusade.

    The first segment ocurred under Peter the Hermit. In Les P, Jeanne Bourin completely ignored Peter and his Crusade. Peter was a French Cluniac who preached in Northern France, Lorraine, and Germany. According to one story, Peter said that Jesus Christ appeared to him in a dream and gave him a letter for the pope. Several groups left for Jerusalem from Germany. Many of these groups were as small as a few thousand people. Peter's group contained about 7000 people when he reached Asia.Walter the Penniless who merged with Peter had about 5000 people on reaching Asia.

    These people started as an aimless mass migration which committed many atrocities in villages along the way. The jews they met and slaughtered were for many the only infidels they would see. It was said that children were roasted alive on spits. These people were completely anihilated before Nicea.

    All this happened before the arrival of the Barons and our little group.The group from Cologne, Germany was particularly guilty of these little pogroms. Fortunately, many died in the alps, and others were killed by the King of Hungary when they passed through his kingdom.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 16, 2002 - 05:05 pm
    Justin, Good post about Pierre l'Hermite, perhaps Jeanne Bourin was reluctant to make mention of other crusades for a personal reason, it's hard to know. Shall we say that around 9,000 pilgrims left Germany and France on the first crusade and only 5,000 reached Jerusalem.

    Was the Inquisition as bloody as the Crusades were I wonder?


    Justin, Peut-tre que Jeanne Bourin n'a pas mentionne Pierre l'Hermite deliberement, qui sait? Mais des 9,000 quelques plerins qui sont partis de l'Allemagne et la France dans cette premire croisade, seulement 5,000 on atteint Jerusalem.

    Est-ce-que l'inquisition fut aussi sanglante je me demande.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    November 16, 2002 - 07:09 pm
    the First Crusade was made up of two main segments. The first group under Peter came from Germany and Northern France.It was about 20,000 strong with approximately 100 knights. Several other smaller groups left from Germany and later joined with Peter. This group was comprised primarily of poor pilgrims. This particular segment of the first crusade did a great deal of damage crossing Europe and when they came to Hungary the Hungarian King thought enough was enough. He used his army to resist the crusaders and killed thousands of them. About 5000 of Peter's group got through to Constantinople. Others got through as well. 7000 here, two thousand there. All told Peter's combined strength leaving Constantinople was probably close to 20,000. When they attacked Nicaea, the Sultan Qilidj-Arslan, estimated their strength at that number. He wiped them out. All were killed but a couple of thousand who were able to board ships and escape.

    The second segment of the first crusade is called the Baron's crusade. It was comprised of five armies and some pilgrims. The Sultan of Nicaea thought all christians were alike and chose to ignore the Baron's army. He went on with his usual internecine warfare and soon discovered that the Barons were not Peter. It is interesting to note that the bulk of the inhabitants of Nicaea were Greek. The Seljuk Turks had just captured the City a short time before the arrival of Peter's people. Many of the Greeks were Christian. The Barons cared not at all. They killed everyone.

    In our story, Beatrix, is a residue of Peter's group. Her parents were wiped out, I think, in Hungary. Also in our story, we learn that the Sultan, Qilidj-Arslan is captured by a Greek ship and turned over to the Barons.

    Once piece of information is yet missing. Peter and his group preceded the Barons by approximately six months. When the Barons arrived, Peters people were dead and gone and the Sultan was off amusing himself by fighting with his neighbors. It is interesting to note that the Sultan was just seventeen years of age at this time. His father had been killed fighting the Emperor's men a few months before Peter arrived.

    Justin
    November 19, 2002 - 12:38 am
    Interessant, je li dans Maalouf, un historien Arabe des Crusades, que la ville Nicee se rendit ˆ basileus sans lutte. Ses hommes entr la ville ˆ nuit et la matin prochain le drapeau de l'emperor byzantine parait a l'hampe. Les hommes de France restent dehors les murailles. Ces admettent paisiblement mais une fois a l'interieur, ils tuer tout le monde-les grecs et les turcs. L'armee du sultan et le sultan sont dehors les murailles. Ils abandonne la cite et ils retrait a un autre ville ˆ battre encore. C'etait les grecs qui rende la ville ˆ la basileus. Mde. Bourin dit une histoire different.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 19, 2002 - 02:06 pm
    Je suis contente d'apprendre l'histoire des croisades Justin, non seulement du point de vue de Jeanne Bourin, mais aussi d'un autre point de vue, celui de Maalouf. Elle cite dans sa bibliographie onze historiens franais en reference pour l'histoire du Moyen åge et des Croisades. Maalouf n'est pas de ceux-lˆ.

    Aurons-nous d'autres commentaires sur les Croisades ou sur Les Peregrines?

    I am happy to learn the history of the Crusades Justin, not only from Jeanne Bourin's point of view but also from Maalouf. In the Bibliography, eleven French Historiens were listed for the Middle Ages and the Crusades but Maalouf was not one of them.

    Will we have other comments on the Crusades? or about Les Peregrines? I have a feeling that we are very few in this discussion and whether it is in our best interest to continue on much further? Your comments would be very appreciated.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    November 19, 2002 - 03:42 pm
    Maalouf is an Arab historian who gives us a view of the invasion of the French in the Middle East in the eleventh century that can not be seen from the point of view of a French crusader. The Turks were defenders of lands they had but a few years earlier taken from the Greeks. The population of Nicaea was yet 80% Greek and 20% Seljuk Turkish soldiery. The Turks, that night in Mid June, were off fighting a more traditional enemy.The Sultan was with them. The Greeks back in Nicaea, surrounded by the French, capitulated to the Byzantine Emperor, and put themselves under his protection. They were, in the main, good catholics of the eastern persuasion. The Greeks flew the flag of the Emperor in the morning and expected to be saved from destruction. The Crusaders, camped outside, had no such notion. When they were invited in to the city they managed to destroy the city in the search for booty and also to anilhilate every man woman and child. Many were killed in interesting ways that I won't bother you with.

    GingerWright
    November 19, 2002 - 03:50 pm
    I am enjoying all of your posts. Thanks

    Justin
    November 19, 2002 - 03:51 pm
    Eloise: I also think we have problem. Have you emailed all those who have participated in the past? They may not be interested in discussing the crusades or if they are, they wish a more scholastic venue. They may not feel they have anything to learn from posting in French. They may find Bourin trivial. I don't know, but if we are to continue, we must have more posters. I don't want the first effort to post in a foreign language to fail by stopping in the middle. Let's get Robby's advice.

    GingerWright
    November 19, 2002 - 03:53 pm
    Justin and Elouise Where is Ginny and Robby?

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2002 - 04:06 pm
    I emailed Eloise about this but I'll post it here. I was not enthused that much about this "romance" even if it did have the background of the Crusades. I am not a fiction-type person. I would have found it difficult to keep up the enthusiasm even in English but doing that in a foreign language became rather boring for me. The story became too long for me.

    If some day enough people in this forum want to do this but with a short story equivalent to the type of stories that O.O. Henry wrote in English, I would be willing to try again. For me they would have to be stories where one arrived at the point very quickly. I had suggested to Eloise Le Jongleur de Notre Dame and Boule de Suif.

    Robby

    Ginny
    November 19, 2002 - 04:50 pm
    I think short stories, or a book with a translation in English available as Eloise has suggested or even a modern short novel next time would be super, I'm back, and I'll see it thru, now that my work in The Remains of the Day is over, I apologize for getting so far behind.

    Unfortunately Roslyn is ill and is not able to come by but I do admire your spirit Justin and I'm more than willing to finish it up, and you all read so well there's no reason we can't do the pace we would with a book in English and finish speedily.

    We are not all able to converse in French, but the purpose was to READ a book in French, if you can post in French please do, those of us who can't will enjoy reading it and maybe some day can express simple thoughts, it's much too hard to have to read AND write in French right now, at least for me.

    Speaking for myself only I LOVE the background information and am reading here every day, but was not sure where you WERE page wise and so was puzzled.




    We know this is a difficult book, even for a native Frenchman, we've come this far and as Justin says we need to finish, what you all have submitted so far more than makes up for any stumbles upon the way or slow speed. Let's ask Eloise to set a schedule and move forward boldly we only have about 3 weeks work left and we can say with tremendous satisfaction WE were the pilgrims here and as Frank Sinatra said, I faced it all and I stood tall, let's do it!

    I need to KNOW where you all are, where I am there are no bleeding bodies, are you in Part III?

    ginny

    Ginny
    November 19, 2002 - 04:56 pm
    Speaking of the text now I'm quite surprised how much you can get out of the way she writes, and how it sticks with you.

    Justin I had no earthly idea that all that was going on in the First Crusade, the Baron's crusade, all those murders, it makes me feel quite protective for our little idealistic hopeful pure band, I wonder tho what they can be thinking of? I mean THEY realize, I can see it, THEY won't be ripping the Satanic hands from the Church at Jerusalem, and I'm not sure...what do you ...how do you account for their moving forward, non combattants in the face of this horrifying military threat?

    I really appreciate the view from "the other side, too," how did the Sultan, I have read your posts, regard these invaders? Are there any written sources that say how he felt about THEM?

    Will somebody plese tell me what's wrong with Berthe? Has Bourin said?

    I really like the way the girls support each other, they are kind to each other, it's touching, they are very much (if I understand what I read) very close and bonded and I have an awful feeling they will need to be, I think Bourin has portrayed their singular position in the world very well, what an awful time that must have been, but a "First" whether it's a Crudsade or a reading of a book in very difficult French, is a First, we owe our Pilgrims to see it thru too, I'm going on in Part III, please tell me where you are?

    ginny

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2002 - 05:06 pm
    Ginny: As you say, the purpose is to read a book in French but I stick to that only if the story interests me. As the story continued, it was obvious to me that it was not something that would even interest me in English, so I found it a chore to read it in a foreign language. Unless I missed something somewhere, it was not a story about the Crusades, it was the story of the activities of a particular family. I found Justin's comments about the Crusades interesting but not the theme of the book.

    Robby

    Ginny
    November 19, 2002 - 05:09 pm
    Well Robby, also, let's face it, you are also leading the fabulously popular and substantive Story of Civilization, for Pete's sake!!!!!!!

    I just finished with The Remains of the Day which had more than 800 posts in one month and I have some feeling for how you must feel having led that discussion for so many months, and you must not forget, one person can only do so much.

    I very much like the ideas you've put forth and hope that the next time we might all have the luxury of time to write AND read in French, I look forward to it.

    ginny

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2002 - 05:14 pm
    Ginny:--And the fact that I continue on endlessly with SofC indicates my interests. If you asked me to be the DL for The Life and Loves of Brittany Spears or the classic Little Women, I would turn you down flat. Chacun a son gout.

    Robby

    Ginny
    November 19, 2002 - 05:17 pm
    De gustibus, huh? hahaahah

    One of the very substantive sidelights of this discussion of the family has been all the supplementary information brought forward, on the Crusades, and the links, and historical background, not to mention Eloise's new translations. I am not aware of any other translation of this book, so when we finish it, our Study Guide will be a tremendous resource for students of French and those who might like to try this book, I think a great deal of worth has been done here.

    What's wrong with LIttle Women? hahahaahha

    (If we keep this up Eloise will wish for more silence) hahahahaa

    OH hey Robby, Julius Caesar is rescheduled for March, it appears, does that fit in now with your SoC schedule?

    ginny

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2002 - 05:20 pm
    We don't have a schedule in SofC. When everyone agrees that we all know everything about Ancient Greece, we will then move on to "Caesar, Plato, and Christ." How would you like to be DL for that? It's up for grabs.

    How do you like this new substitute for email?

    Robby

    Ginny
    November 19, 2002 - 05:28 pm
    All RIGHT, all RIGHT, hahaaha I get the hint, I will stifle, but just keep the Ides of March in mind, sort of a collaborative effort between the two discussions?

    Zut alors, Eloise, pardonnez moi, ou sont nous dans ce livre?




    By the way I note the words "tant pis" right before Part III in Chapter 4? I was under the impression that was sort of a modern phrase, did I catch Bourin there or not?

    ginny

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2002 - 06:32 pm
    I thought tant pis was the aunt of Mannequin Pis.

    Robby

    Justin
    November 19, 2002 - 06:55 pm
    Ginny: I am in Part three, section two. Dated 25 juin -30 octobre 1097. The heros have just returned from conquering the Turks in the city of Nicaea. They are bragging to their woman and submitting to the acolades of the ladies for taking the city and for fighting the enemy so heroicly. Bohemond says," La victoire des armee du christ,obtenue contre les forces du sultan Qilidz-Arslan cette victoire eclante contre des troupes superieurs en nombre to notres va frapper les esprits." That's utter nonsense.

    He is camped outside the walls. The sultan and his troops are away. Only civilian Greeks remain. They send a secret embassy to the Byzantine Emperor who sends an embassy in return by water sneaking in the back door. The Greeks surrender to the Emperor who promises to protect the city from harm.They raise the Emperor's flag to the flag staff indicating the city has now been returned to the emperor. A sign the crusaders outside the walls should have taken to mean " Go away you are no longer needed here. This is now a city in the Catholic camp owned by me the Byzantine Emperor.". Do the Crusaders go away?

    No. They enter the city and kill all their Greek Catholic brethren. Then they go back to camp and tell their women they are great heros covered with the blood of the enemies of God. The sultan and his troops leave for the next battle site.

    That's where we are , Ginny.

    Bourin takes liberties, let me tell you.

    I don't know what to do with this thing. Certainly, Robby has a valid point. Not only is the work Barbara Bradfordish, but it is also weak historically. I don't deal with the story line which is trivial. (The young 15 year old is about to jump in the sack with Bohemond, the hero.) But I comment on the setting which has historical inaccuracies and I draw new skill from posting in French. Eloise has been a big help.

    I don't wish to abandon a new venture that I think could succeed with a more challenging book. Thats why I think we should write to all those who participated seeking some common ground that would attract many more posters.

    Ginny
    November 19, 2002 - 07:13 pm
    Robby despite myself I had to chortle over that one, honestly! hahahaa

    Thank you Justin, I do appreciate that, I'll catch up to Part III section III tomorrow and rejoin you, really apprecite the synopsis, too.

    I think it would actually be of great value if you continued to point out where history and the book diverge? In reviewing the movie of Remains of the Day we are finding pages and pages of differences in the book The Remains of the Day and the movie, I find that type of thing is much more interesting than taking anything at face value and ultimately more rewarding, for everybody, but that's just me let's hear from Eloise when she returns, she'll probably faint at all these posts.

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 19, 2002 - 08:48 pm
    I am flabbergasted and floored by this lively CONVERSATION and I was just about ready to throw in the towel??? jetter la serviette???? You guys made me laugh so much and I thank yo for that. I just came in from a hard day. Got my marks for my first assignment, I passed. Too tired to say more and tomorrow, I leave early, but later tomorrow PM I will be back in Les Per. and do what you folks suggested, twisted my arm to do.

    Tourlou, Elo•se

    GingerWright
    November 19, 2002 - 09:58 pm
    I just Love it, Just Love it when I can understand what is going on so I thank You all Robby, Ginny, and Justin. I wonder where MmeW is? I am heading for all that have said they would join here and see what we have in the Roster of Partisapants.(sp) I know but am just so happy to see this discussion come alive again.

    Ginger

    GingerWright
    November 19, 2002 - 10:17 pm
    Hello You may never want to see me again BuT YOU WILL.

    Allie, Allie in free to All You posters That have said that You were going to join This discussion and they ARE: Joan Grimes, mssuzy, Malryn and Marilou so come OUT Where ever You are as you will not be tagged.

    Smile, Lovya ALL, Ginger

    GingerWright
    November 19, 2002 - 10:24 pm
    It is very disappointing to a discussion leader I would imagine to have a Lot of people drop out.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 20, 2002 - 08:34 am
    Allo, Allo, je suis lˆ et reposee pour continuer la discussion avec vous et j'ai beaucoup de chose ˆ dire, contrairement ˆ mon habitude.

    I am here and rested and I have many things to say contrary to my habits.

    Justin, Thank you for the historical information. We are all learning from your knowledge and the clear way you express yourself. When I read history, I always have in the back of my mind that Historians as well as us have our biases regardless. The concrete facts in history remain, but the motives can vary and can be subject to interpretation. I am open minded but still keep my own judgment of how others view things.

    Robby, From your discussions that I have participated in, I understand that you would not enjoy a romance novel like Les Peregrine. We are very fortunate to have had your input in spite of your work load. I will read Maupassant's Boule de Suif, OH! How I HATE That Title, Tant Pis and Le Jongleur de Notre Dame.

    Je ne Jetterai pas l'eponge lˆ vous tes contents??? Je vais bosser encore. Meaning I will work hard (Pas "jeter la serviette" mais Jeter l'eponge il faut dire) Aussi jetterai prend deux 't' et jeter n'en prend qu'un. Bizarre.

    Ginger, my sweet, you are so nice to come and cheer us up, I took the list from your Roster Of Participants and write to everyone today.

    Ginny, when you ask "where are you all in the book?" who do you mean by "all"? I have read Chapter III and will be ready to discuss it starting next Friday and have some questions to put up in the heading. Thank for your much appreciated help.

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    November 20, 2002 - 08:44 am
    Bon! Bien sur, Eloise, I will be ready with all of Part III Friday and some new illustrations for the heading, and many thanks to Pat W who has continued putting up the super links provided by our readers, you're doing a super job, we'll get up the schedule you decide in the heading asap, and let's ROLL!

    ginny

    Sharon E
    November 20, 2002 - 09:56 am
    Elo•se et tous, je regrette que je n'ai pas ecrit ici pendant longtemps mais mon horaire est trop rempli ˆ ce moment pour lire le livre. Nous partirons dimanche pour Chicago pour celebrer "Thanksgiving" avec tous nos enfants et petits enfants. Nous retournerons le premier decembre. Peut-tre pourrai-je le lire pendant notre voyage. Sinon, j'essaierai lire beaucoup ˆ mon retour. Sharon

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 21, 2002 - 07:37 am
    Please note the future schedule for reading and discussing the rest of the book.

    Week of November 24th = Section 3, chapters 1, 2, 3.

    Week of December lst = Section 4, chapters 1, 2, 3, 4.

    Week of December 8th = Section 5 to the end.

    Elo•se

    Marilou
    November 21, 2002 - 09:18 am
    Coucou, it's me

    Here I am, I wasn't far, but I had a lot of job. I continue to read the book. I don't give up the discussion. Happy to see again everybody.

    Si je ne me trompe pas, nous sommes en pleine guerre et on s'arrte gentiment pour l'heure du souper, la journee est faite on a bien guerroyer alors on peut manger et baiser ˆ son gožt, car ici il n'est pas question de deguster un bon repas et d'aimer la personne avec qui on passe la nuit. S'il y a amour, il n'est qu'ˆ sens unique et il n'emane que de la femme.

    Je dois arrter ici mes reflexions car j'ai des collgues qui m'attendent pour une reunion.

    Ë bient™t, Marilou.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 21, 2002 - 12:28 pm
    Marilou posts in reaction to the fact that Ala•s, how is now working alongside Bohemond's half sister Mabille to nurse wounded soldiers and entertain officers is falling for the charm of "Le beau mec Bohemond".

    Marilou - Why, you naughty girl and now I have to translate that???? Marilou said: "If I am not mistaken, we are in the middle of a war and we must break for dinner. The day is done, we have fought the war nicely and it's only natural that we stop to eat and f... to our heart's content because there is no question that we eat a good meal and love the woman we are spending the night with. If there is love it is one way only and it emanates from the woman.

    I must stop my reflections here because my colleagues are waiting for me to start the meeting."


    Do you agree with Marilou that little Ala•s, who is only 15 after all, will only be a passing fancy for Bohemond? Will Bohemond just use her and drop her as Marilou seems to imply?

    If this is a romantic book, this is where we encounter romance as it was expected about a family of 3 very pretty pilgrim girls walking towards Jerusalem. Can we stop the natural order of things?

    The author is a realist when she describes human relations. The girls will no longer be protected by their parents like they were at home in the very conservative city of Chartres, but without any parental guidance whatsoever, they will come across attractive officers who couldn't care less about seducing pretty young girls for a night of love and perhaps abandon them the next day to continue with the war.

    While our little group is experiencing the attrocities committed during the Crusades, we can already predict that it will not be only the girls' integrity that will be a challenge but passion won't give them a moment't peace as they try to resist the temptation.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    November 21, 2002 - 11:06 pm
    Guibourg dit ˆ Brunissen "Dieu sera indulgent", pendant regarde des sieges vides. Elle dit "je connais certaines herbs qui peuvent empecher un moment de folie d'avoir de facheuses consequences...Brunissen repli,"Taissez vous. Pour l'amour du ciel." Tout cet en Chapitre 3-2.

    Pourquoi Brunissen repli en cette manire?

    Pas meme le representatif du Dieu peut contrevien quand Bohemond veut amusement.

    Justin
    November 21, 2002 - 11:16 pm
    Alais va lit a quinz ans et reveille a vengt-et-un ans. La sagesse vien rapidmente en le matin.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 22, 2002 - 07:21 am
    Justin je suis certaine que Guibourg faisant allusion ˆ certaines herbes pour faire avorter et etant donne que les rapports sexuels en dehors du mariage sont peche pour les Chretiens, la reaction de Brunissen etait normale. Au sujet des amusements de Bohemond, Ala”s aurait pu s'abstenir mais son amour etait plus fort. Et voilˆ comment tourne la terre. Les passions domineront mme les plus sages. Oups!

    Elo•se

    Justin
    November 22, 2002 - 01:56 pm
    Eloise: Mais, pourquoi, "Tassez Vous". Pourquoi pas, "Merci Beaucoup, Madame." Ce n'est pas un peche ˆ le parler. Est il?

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 22, 2002 - 03:10 pm
    Non Justin, ce n'est pas un peche d'en parler, Brunissen ne voulait pas que Guibourg parle de a. Dire 'taisez-vous' ˆ Guibourg veut aussi signaler qu'elle n'etait que la servante aprs tout et que ce n'etait pas approprie pour elle de mme suggerer de faire un si grand peche.

    Je ne fait que presumer les intention d'une personnage dans un roman. Je ne peut qu'imaginer les intentions de auteur.

    Justin
    November 22, 2002 - 05:30 pm
    Eloise: Bien sur. C'est les intentions d'auteur nous parlons.

    Ginny
    November 22, 2002 - 07:26 pm
    Bonsoir, bonsoir! So nice to see you Sharon and Marilou, what type of work do you do, Marilou?

    Sharon, hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving with your family, we look forward to your rejoining us in December!! Your French is certainement bon, I wish I had that facility.




    I lack 30 pages in Part III and boy she sure throws you into the action, doesn't she? It's easy to feel a part of this trip, and the group, to me, there are things happening which are bewildering (maybe it?s my command of the French) haahah and they struggle to understand, and so do I.

    It must have been terribly difficult, Landry says it?s been over a year and he understands they still have a long way to go and it seems that every time somebody expresses doubt or misgivings they are exhorted to greater religious duty, so that if they fail they feel doubly guilty. Definitely on a religious pilgrimage. That was an interesting section on the Book of Job, too, that might make an interestingi topic.

    I also note the Noterary expresses wonderment that Berthe is still ill, apparently the flux or whatever it is does not usually last that long, and the only thing that passes for doctors might as well be consulting entrails, boy Bourin is pretty descriptive on the smells, etc. isn?t she?

    And we seem to have an expectant mother, if I read that right, also moving toward Jerusalem??!!?? Golly Moses, don?t you feel protective of our little band?

    What was it Berthe wrote those at home about the trip?

    What is a ?glaive? which appeared with sword pointing to Jerusalem? History is full of these different manifestations, Hadrian?s Tomb in Rome has ?is it Michael on it, because one of the Popes saw him leading the way when in doubt, I need to look that back up and be sure, but it?s a charming story. I?ll see if I can find a photo of it.

    Oops did I catch Bourin? You know that light at the end of the tunnel saying, isn?t it fairly new? She says something a lot like it: ?La Lumire va succeder au noir tunnel!? Usually when people say that saying they say, ?but it?s not always an oncoming train,? which of course would not apply here, did I catch her? Is this a "always darkest before the dawn" type of thing?




    I?m curious about the footnote which explains the split of the Roman Catholic Church and the?what? Greek Orthodox Church?? or what is the ?l?Eglise d?Orient?? Is that true? Was it the leaving out of the Nicene Creed the word ?Filioque? (and of the Son) I am confused at this information, it seems to be saying it was the Son left out and the original text had the Holy Ghost and the Father but not the Son, does anybody have any more information on the cause of this split? I have never heard this before.

    ginny

    Justin
    November 22, 2002 - 11:42 pm
    A split took place in 867 when Photias, the Byzantine Patriarch ,disagreed with the Council of Constantinople and anathematized the Pope. He accused the Pope of some doctrinal differences. But the truth of the matter lay in a refusal on the part of the Patriarchate to acknowledge the primacy of Rome.

    One must recall that Constantine split the Roman power with Byzantium several hundred years before this, renamed the city Constantinople and after that time Byzantium's citizens thought of them selves as the new Romans. As a political entity Rome disappeared. Pavia and then Ravenna served as the capital for a time.

    There was a marked cleavage between the Latin church and Greek Christianity even during Justinian's time (525-555). I am telling you all this so you understand it was not some deviation in the creed, or the marriage of priests that drove The Latins and the Greeks apart. That's too simple. They had a history of discontent with one another.

    The final rupture occurred in 1054, just 50 years before our little group responded to the Byzantine request for help in controlling the Seljuk Turks. East and West are split and then again they are not split. They have mutual problems to solve. The French want new land to conquer, the Pope wants to expand his flock, and the Emperor of the Byzantines wants help in fighting a troublesome invader.

    Justin
    November 23, 2002 - 12:05 am
    The Herder and Herder Catechism for Catholics say of the split," Relations between Rome and Byzantium had often been strained in the previous centuries. (before 1054). Unity was difficult to maintain in the face of differences in theological formulas ( the procession of the holy Spirit from the son, Liturgical practice- leavened or unleavened bread, and spiritual authority- the primacy of the Roman See. These questions were complicated by political circumstances and the difference in language and culture.

    Is that more than you wanted to know?

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 23, 2002 - 04:30 am
    Keep them coming Justin, your posts are so informative.

    HERE is a link that takes us to THE FIRST GOLDEN AGE OF BYZANTIUM. We can read about the split of the Roman and the Greek Church. Artifacts of an Enkolpion, a gold? devotional pendant with an image of Christ.

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 23, 2002 - 07:07 am
    Ginny - As nature will have it, Ala•s will grow up in a jiffy after falling for her hero. If I remember, his own parents were not married. Ala”s in her innocence believed that he would take full responsability of his fatherhood. Although she was not of noble birth, many nobles had plebian mothers and we shall she if he will abandon her and if her family will disown her because of this.

    Durant ce temps notre Flaminia qui etait restee ˆ Constantinople pour soigner sa grand'mre priait pour qu'elle retrouve la sante. La famille Danielis, surtout les hommes ne manquaient pas de sollicitude envers ceux reste chez eux et leur apportaient des presents. C'est lˆ que nous voyons en bas de page la mention dont Justin parle plus haut sur le schisme de l'eglise qui est encore divisee aujourd'hui.

    During that time, our Flaminia who had stayed behind in Constantinople to look after her grand mother was praying fervently for her to regain her health. The Danielis family, mostly the men were visiting them and bringing them presents and sweets.

    This is where we see in the footnote that Justin mentions the schism that is still dividing the churches.


    Flaminia maintenant se trouvait sans support moral et sans personne ˆ qui se confier, ses soeurs, le Pre Ascelin son frre ayant quitte Constantinople et elle se trouvait bien seule. Son coeur de femme se desolait et l'amour, encore une fois, vint ebranler sa nature pasionnee mme si sa conscience le lui interdisait.

    Flaminia now found herself without moral support and no one to confide herself in, her sisters, Father Ascelin, her brother had left Constantinople and she found herself very lonely. Her heart was desolate and love, once again, came to shake her passionate nature even if her conscience was forbidding it.

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    November 24, 2002 - 07:12 am
    Thank you for those super explanations, Eloise and Justin, no, Justin, in fact I would like to hear more, what was the exact nature of the schism on the proceeding from the Son thing, I'm very interested to hear it?

    I apologize that my poor command of French keeps me from commenting as I normally would on plot characterization, etc., and point of view, I'm doing well to figure out what's going on hahahahaha.




    But let me ask you all, just for the heck of it, WHOSE point of view is this story told in? Every story has a point of view, who is the narrator here?




    This whole pilgrimage fascinates me, I find myself thinking about it in odd hours, consider the time, the known world was split and...well, in a bit of darkness after the fall of what was left of the Roman Empire, imagine. Our country, America, is only 200 plus years old here we are in the book 500+ years after the fall of Rome which of course had been split (thank you for using the phrase New Romans, Justin) anyway and in tatters.

    In 2002 we have the omnipresent press, the television, an immediate window on the world, yet are we each individually any more in control of our own fates than these people were? Do we actually KNOW any more, really?

    Apparently in France (was this true of any other country, Justin?) In Edit: In rereading this I see I am putting poor Justin on the spot quite a bit, sorry for the continual questions, hahahaa inquiring minds want to know!... the feudal system just kind of took over from the time of the fall of Rome, with the common folk clustering around the castles for protection and the development of whoever could hold on and lead: the Lords and Barons etc who managed to hold on to what they had, led on. Is that the way they developed, Justin? I?m quite ignorant of this period of history and would like to learn more.

    So when you think about that, the sheer effort Urban got of people making a joint pilgrimage staggers the mind (and the fact that there were so many crusades AFTER this does too, one has to assume they were better organized).

    When you consider, as the Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusades says, that


    Enthusiasm for the crusades was most intense in France, Italy and western Germany but few areas of Latin Christendom were entirely unaffected. As on historian memorably put it a "nerve of exquisite feeling" had been touched in the west.


    One of the hottest selling series of books now is the...I don't know the names but it concerns what happens after Armageddon, how those left survive and in a sense, really, that's sort of what we're seeing here, these people (and I think Bourin does her part well in having you feel the times) are adrift, they may not know it, they turn to each other for explanation and comfort, but the explanations they get are, at best, 10th hand, but they go forward in faith anyway, having lost one parent and apparently about to lose the only grandparent. O tempora, O mores, fits here, I think, sorry for this long discursion, but the whole thing fascinates me.

    (Strangely enough I am unable to read Colleen McCullough's fictionalized accounts, however well researched, of Roman history, do you all find them interesting?)

    But this thing, being not a pretender of the life of real persons, manages to convey reality to me, very strongly, even IF messing up historical fact (we have Justin to set us straight there!)




    I also have some fabulous artwork on the siege of Antioch, I'd like to put them up, by the dates of Part III we should be actually be approaching it ("ghastly prolonged siege of Antioch: October 1097-June 1098?), and it looks like we get there in Part IV, so will hold them at the ready.

    As a parallel to the historical matter in the story we have the personal: it looks like Andronic is contemplating divorce. Of course the character of Icasia has been presented quite negatively by the author, which makes the reader more in sympathy than the reader would normally have been.

    I've been wondering what the state of Marriage WAS at this time, quite frankly, the times seem tenuous at best, one wonders how strong the bonds were, I can see Flaminia seems to consider divorce a condemnation into eternal fire, as adultery, which makes me wonder how the romance got as far as it apparently has?

    ???

    ginny

    Ginny
    November 24, 2002 - 08:03 am
    By the way, those of you interested in ancient history and other languages, we have two new discussions with classical allusions in the new year, one, in March, Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, featuring a warm up with Plutarch's Lives and possibly Caesar himself, and Seven Sisters, a new work of British fiction about the life of a woman in mid life, in January whose plot apparently follows the story line and alludes to Virgil's Aeneid.

    Dryden's Translation of the Aeneid (beautiful thing, we need to read The Aeneid in our Books we did the Odyssey in 1996, will never forget it) and lines 1-100 of the original in three different Latin versions will be available in the heading for those who would like to try their wings in yet another language.

    Just FYI

    ginny

    Justin
    November 24, 2002 - 05:21 pm
    Flaminia's motives are very clearly, hot pants and guilt, in that order. Nature calls, then religion responds. God's creation does it's thing and then man in his religious intuition , often at variance with the intent of God, passes judgement. Jesus never said anything about marriage and divorce. He simply provided the wine to make the revelers friendlier.

    Justin
    November 24, 2002 - 06:39 pm
    Ginny: The "procession of the holy spirit from the son" is a concept that eludes me. The concept is all bound up with the idea of a Trinity ie; of three gods in one. That's how catholics manage to fit the monotheism category. If one views it in terms of the many theological ideas that preceded it, the concept reduces a pantheon to singularity. Now the question of a procession of one god to another within the Trinity is where they lose me.

    These things were argued out in Medieval Church Councils and debated by the Scholastics in Paris in the 12th century. Bernard of Clairveaux and Abelard were at loggerheads over these questions. Abelard backed away from one position because Bernard threatened him with burning for heresy. I know that at the time, 1054, both religious leaders issued Bulls of excomunication. These should spell out what is meant by "procession" and "lack of procession".

    There is a theological group here in Senior Net. Someone in that group may be able to help. Who knows?

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 25, 2002 - 01:34 am
    Justin - Jesus parle de mariage dans Matthiew 22:30, 24:38, Romains 7:2, Hebreux 13:4.

    La Bible mentionned le divorce dans Malachi, 2:16, Matthieu 19:3, 1 Corinthiens 7:11, and 7:27.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    November 25, 2002 - 03:25 pm
    Eloise: I take your thought. There are references to marriage and divorce but: Matthew 22:30 Says" they are angels in heaven and neither married nor given in marriage".

    Matthew 24:38 He is not talking about marriage. He is delivering the parable of the fig tree. He is talking about death and it's unpredictability.

    Romans and Hebrews are messages from Paul not Jesus.

    Matthew 19:3-9 is clearly about marriage and Moses' allowance for divorce. Jesus appears to modify the rule to permit divorce only for adultery but he focuses more on adultery than on the rule for divorce.

    Corinthians is a message from Paul, not from Jesus.

    In sum, You are correct. I was wrong. Jesus did have more to say about marriage and divorce. I had forgotten about his comments on the law of Moses.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 25, 2002 - 04:38 pm
    The Bible, The New International Version. 2002 Edition. Jesus quoted in red.

    Jesus said in Mathiew 24:38. "For in the days before the flood, peope were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark: and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away".

    Jesus said in Matthew 19:4. "Havn't you read, he replied, (Jesus) that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female, and said, 5. for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'. 6. So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

    I don't see anything about Moses in those quotes. Where is that?

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 25, 2002 - 05:04 pm
    Flaminia et Icasia etaient ensembles dans la voiture de celle-ci et le narrateur decrivait la foule qu'ils croisaient dans la rue. Une foule bigarree et en plus des Grecs, il y avait des Germains, des Syriens, des marchands venitiens, des Turcs, des Hongrois, des Russes, Bulgares, Ethiopiens et toute ces races ne semblait pas avoir de conflits les uns avec les autres ni avec les differences dans leur couleur, leurs langues et leur culture.

    Est-ce que tout ce monde vivaient en harmonie ˆ Constantinople durant le temps des croisades? ou bien ne se toleraient-ils pas tout simplement ˆ cause du profit qu'ils esperaient faire? Evidemment, les Croisades sont venus chambarder tout a.

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    November 25, 2002 - 05:08 pm
    Thank you, Justin, I might pursue that, am actually quite interested in it and thought there might be some new scholarship on the split, thank you also Eloise for that super link, it does go into more detail.

    I was more interested in the state of marriage in the 1000 time period, as to how it was held, I think it might be quite interesting to learn about and of course the concept of the Trinity is not only confined to Roman Catholicism.

    It's amazing to me how much new scholarship there is about times long gone, for instance I spent some time just now on the Oxford Classics Research Projects Group 2001 of Oxford University, they have tons of grants and are doing simply stupendous things, for instance , look at this one :



    Romano-British Writing Tablets Funding: AHRB Research Grant (April 1999-March 2002) Project Directors: Dr A K Bowman, Professor J D Thomas (University of Durham) Project Staff: Dr J Pearce (Ph.D. Durham, 1999)



    Of the former provinces of the Roman empire, Britain is perhaps the most prolific in producing new Latin documents. These comprise two main types. The first, well known from excavations at Vindolanda, close to Hadrian's Wall, includes wooden ink and stylus tablets, the second texts inscribed on thin sheets of metal, usually lead, commonly referred to as 'curse tablets'. Wooden tablets tend to survive only in waterlogged archaeological contexts, but lead tablets are less dependent on these particular preservation conditions and have been recovered both during archaeological excavation and as surface finds, especially in recent years through the use of metal detectors. A project based at the Centre for the Study of Ancient Documents (CSAD) aims to publish a corpus of these lead and wooden tablets as Roman Inscriptions of Britain volume IV (RIB IV). It will compile and re-edit known texts as well as publish recent discoveries. Preparation of the corpus will include the application of new techniques of digital image enhancement to these artefacts. These techniques are being developed in collaboration with the Faculty of Engineering Science at Oxford (see project entry below) and will allow significantly improved readings of texts, indeed sometimes the first readings of texts previously considered illegible.






    Imaging Roman Stylus Tablets Funding: EPSRC Research Grant (January 1999-December 2001) Project Directors: Dr A K Bowman (CSAD) and Professor J M Brady (Department of Engineering Science) Project Staff: Dr Xiaobo Pan (Postdoctoral Researcher) Ms M Terras (Doctoral Student)



    In addition to an exceptional quantity of well-preserved ink writing-tablets, Vindolanda has also produced a large number of stilus tablets; the examples discovered in the 1990s bring the total to around 200, many of which show visible remains of writing.

    Very few of these, however, can be read directly. The majority of surviving stilus tablets-both from Vindolanda and in museums and collections elsewhere-remain intractable and unread because the wax surface has perished leaving only the traces of incision where the stilus penetrated the wax to the wood beneath. These incisions are often incomplete especially at the ends of strokes; they are often palimpsest; and the visibility of the text is undermined by wood grain, surface discoloration, and casual damage.




    And here is an example, it's a palimpsest, one century writing over another, and with their technology for the first time, you can read both, it's very exciting, I think:



    Palimpsest texts on a stilus tablet separated using phase congruency shadow stereo.


    Yellow: VECTVRAS Red: ET VECTVRAS


    In thie period of time we're reading about it was common in the abbeys, parchment (the skin of animals) being scarce, to scrape away other older writings, whether or not they were considered "heathen" and put new monastic writings on them, one of the best examples of this is a wonderful palimpsest showing Cicero revealed by ultra violet imaging under St. Augustine's writing, just think what they can NOW do, this type of thing makes fresh all learning from the period, I fhink it's very exciting, myself.

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 25, 2002 - 05:23 pm
    Thank you so much Ginny for these most interesting posts, I am afraid there is too much of a gap in my knowledge about history to offer more interesting ideas, but I can still learn.

    I am wondering if the series of books that you mention about 'Armaggedon' is not the series by Dr. Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, the first one starting after the 'Rapture'. What happen to those LEFT BEHIND is the title of the first book.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    November 25, 2002 - 10:43 pm
    Eloise: You must not take things out of context and expect to understand the meaning of a biblical passsge. Fundementalist evangelicals tend to do just that, especially the tv kind, and they come up with the darndest interpretations of biblical verses. the passage in Matthew, chapter 24, begins at 24:32 where Jesus starts to tell the parable of the fig tree. It ends at 24:51 where the reader can see that he is talking about the unpredictability of death and the admonition to be ready at all times.

    If you will read the entire passage in Matthew 19:3-9, you will understand how the law of Moses applies.

    I am reading the King James version of 1611. I can check the Douai if you wish but I think they correspond on these chapters.

    I posted in the French Discussion an appeal for participants. I hope we get some additional posters.

    Justin
    November 26, 2002 - 12:22 am
    4-1

    C'est trois jours depuis Noel. Quatre amis assis autour d'un feu pendant ils parlent au Antioche. "Sainte Pierre en a ete le premier evque. Saint Luc y est ne avant d'en occuper ,lui aussi, le sige episcopal. C'est ˆ Antioche egalement que les premiers diciples de Jesus se sont donne le beau nom de chretiens. Cette ville ne peut nous echapper."

    Cette scne il avant-ombre le crime ˆ etre commettu et le mis en le contexte saint.

    Justin
    November 26, 2002 - 02:59 pm
    You may find it interesting to know that the very chapter we have been talking about- chapter 24, is the basis for much of the glorious work in glass and stone done at cathedrals such as Amiens, Laon, Noyon, Sens, Soissons etc. in the 12th and 13th centuries. There was great emphasis at that time on the imminent prospect of death. It could come at any time to anyone, noble or serf, so one had better be ready for it. Art iconography of the period very often showed bodies in a state of decay with the admonition "this could be you in a few days." The message was the old boy scout motto- Be prepared.

    Justin
    November 26, 2002 - 03:20 pm
    Quatre-une

    Cinq amis assis a une feu parlent. Herbert dit, "Quand je songe aux tetes descapitees de nos freres chretiens que l'emir d'Antioche a ose faire lancer dans nos rangs par ses bandes d'excommunies,j'etouffe de rage."

    I wonder if Bourin is playing with history again. Maalouf reports that the emir sends is son as a messenger to neighboring kingdoms to get help to relieve the seige at Antioch. One King responds with his troops. When they appear on the horizon the French knights set out to do battle. They defeat the relief army. Decapitate the soldiers and carry the heads back to Antioch where they are launched over the walls by trebuchet to inform the emir that his relief is no more.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 27, 2002 - 06:42 am
    HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYBODY


    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 27, 2002 - 11:14 am
    ICI vous verrez l'origine du nom Andronic que porte l'homme qui fait soupirer la belle Flaminia. Horologion of Andronicos veut dire 'La Tour Des Vents'.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    November 27, 2002 - 03:25 pm
    I know what "fait au tour" means but " La Tour des Vents". What does that mean? The turn of the winds, perhaps, a change in direction. Help, Eloise.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 27, 2002 - 05:40 pm
    Justin - Une tour = a tower. 'Autour' veut dire 'around', Tourner autour du pot = beating around the bush. 'Autour' ne veut pas dire la mme chose que 'au tour'.

    Autant je m'interesse aux Croisades, autant je profite de ce livre pour visualiser les palais imperiaux qui sont si admirablement bien decrits dans ce roman. Lorsque Flaminia fut conduite par Icasia auprs d'Anne de Comnne pour des soins de beaute dont elle avait la charge, la description du palais de l'empereur Alexis est d'une exquise beaute, et par ces mots "Ce fut plut™t dans une forteresse qu'elle entra en compagnie d'Icasia et de Gabriel....On penetrait directement dans une belle antichambre pavee de marbre noir. Des colonnes de porphyre vert soutenaient un plafond peint de scnes representant la vie de l'empereur Theodose. Des chaines d'argent cisele le decoraient egalement. Sur les murs, des mosa•ques evoquaient des recits de l'Ecriture...Un couloir tout en plaques de marbre polychromes conduisait aux appartements imperiaux."

    Un petit instant, on peut oublier la guerre, les blesses, les morts, la Croisade elle-mme pour se reposer des misres humaines dans l'admiration des belles demeures royales que d'habitude nous n'en voyons que l'exterieur en ruine. Parce que des ruines ne sont que de vieilles pierres aprs tout.

    Je me surprends ˆ lire que le savons de Marseille etait dejˆ employe au 11 ime sicle et que seul les nobles pourvaient s'en servir, car il etait interdit ˆ toute autre personne. C'est un savon merveilleux dont je me sers toujours.

    Ensuite nous pouvons assister ˆ une seance de soins de beaute qui date des Croisades et dont les crmes et fards sont encore utilises aujourd'hui.

    Flaminia observait tout cela en silence se souvenant des "epreuves endurees par les croises durant les mois de disette sans merci. Comment leurs allies pouvaient-ils continuer ˆ se vautrer dans le luxe et le gaspillage alors que leurs frres chretiens subissaient la faim, la soif, les carnages, les maladies et la mort?"

    Toutes ces choses, se sont les femmes qui les ressentent et l'auteur entre dans la pensee feminine dans sa description des riches demeures, les decorations ˆ l'interieur des palais, les tissus de soie brodes dans une gamme de couleurs chaudes. Bourin nous raconte qu'une princesse prend soin de sa beaute et decrit les produits qu'elle employait. Les femmes aussi jouaient un r™le important dans les croisades, ce que beaucoup d'historiens negligent de faire.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    November 28, 2002 - 02:10 pm
    Merci vous beaucoup, on et tout, pour un annee du conversation.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 28, 2002 - 09:43 pm
    Je me demande si Jeanne Bourin a puise ses sources dans ce site parc que nous reconnaissons les personnages historiques du roman qui s'apprtent ˆ entreprendre le sige d'ANTIOCHE LA BELLE.

    Les croises s'installrent au nord. Bohemond de Tarente etablissa son camp en face de la porte Saint-Paul, Hugues de Vermandois, Robert de Courteheuse, Robert de Flandre et Etienne de Blois entre la porte Saint-Paul et la porte du Chien, Raymond de Toulouse au nord-ouest, ainsi que Godefroy de Bouillon qui fit face ˆ la porte du Duc (ou du Jardin). La porte du Pont et celle de Saint-George permettaient ˆ la garnison de communiquer avec l'exterieur. Le sige d'Antioche commenait, et cela pour sept mois et demi.

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 28, 2002 - 09:59 pm
    MAP OF THE NEAR EAST" shows how near the Crusaders were to Jerusalem and we read that the siege of Antioch lasted 7 months.

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 28, 2002 - 10:15 pm
    HAUTES MURAILLES D'ANTIOCHE et les croises masses autour prts au combat.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    November 28, 2002 - 10:56 pm
    Equiping a knight was a costly business. If one measures the cost in cows, 47 were required to arm, cover, and mount a knight upon a charger. A helmet cost six cows, a coat of mail cost 12 cows, a sword cost 7 cows, and a horse cost 12 cows. How about that?

    GingerWright
    November 28, 2002 - 11:09 pm
    Justin, That is very good information and I am surprised at the cost of equiping a Knight. Thank You.

    Ginger

    Justin
    November 28, 2002 - 11:10 pm
    In 1054 at the Council of Narbonne, Christians who broke the Peace of God were threatened with excommunication. Further, the Council declared that no Christian may kill another Christian, for there is no doubt that he who kills a Christian spills the blood of Christ. The Truce of God prohibted warfare and killing on Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and Ascension day. As I remember, our little family with Bohemond, left for Anatolia in Easter week. Little did we realize the constraints they were operating under. Further, either Bourin or the knights have chosen to ignore these religious laws. I think, in reality, the Church found it expeditious to ignore these rules in the quest to retrieve the "Terre Sainte".

    Justin
    November 28, 2002 - 11:25 pm
    In the eleventh century knights were ordained. Knighthood was a sacrament administered by the church. The would be knight purified himself by bathing and fasting. The sword was placed on the altar.It was offered as a defense fo churches, widows and orphans against the scourge of pagans and that it may be just in attack and defense. The new knight was dubbed with the last blow he could receive and not return. He promised to attend Mass everyday and fast frequently. He pledged to use the sword to defend the Holy Church against infidels, to defend the widow and orphan, and not to kill a vanquished or helpless enemy in battle, not to give evil counsel to a lady, and to give aid to a fellow being in distress. This code may be found carved in stone in Chartres Cathedral. I wonder how these guys felt at Nicaea and at Antioch where they killed Greek Christians by the barrel full.

    GingerWright
    November 28, 2002 - 11:28 pm
    Justin, Thank You for this information also. OH I wish Ireland could have that as a law. I cry when I hear of Christians Killing Christians as I do believe that they are Killing people who believe in the same God just worshiping in a differnt way.

    Ginger

    Ginny
    November 29, 2002 - 07:31 pm
    I like that idea of putting the Chapters in the subject line Justin, have copied it.

    Elooise thank you for those wonderful links!!! They're the best I've seen on Antioch and how close it really was to Jerusalem, I've printed the one out, my books are not good on Antioch.

    Justin! Many thanks for that background information, we will get it all up on an HTML page when this is over, it's invaluable, many thanks!




    I like, for some reason, this chapter, despite the heads in a bag, you really get the feel of the armor and the preparations for war, I don't believe I have ever seen so many people start every utterance with something like By Saint Sophia, or By XXXX, though, I wonder if that was the custom of the time?

    I've got some super art work on "the glastly seige of Antioch" and have asked Pat W when she might be able to get it up for us, I need to read more on this am confused on some counts.

    Seems like early on they are saying too bad for the Greeks, is this some sort of excuse (page 171) "Tant pis pour led Grecs qui acceptent de la voir soumise a l'islam!. A nos yieux, ce doit etre un scandale.? And on about wiping them from the earth, what?s going on here is it rationalization or what?

    I also liked the descriptions of the machines of war, I am not sure I saw the actual names of them, did you all notice them? Wonder what they would be using then, the trebuchet, for instance?

    I?ve got a later set of statues of knights in armor, which are wonderful to convey how they must have looked to others, will put them up next.

    I am not sure about this Bohemond (sorry, my French keyboard won?t come on and can?t do the accents)?he addresses Landry directly as a ?vassal.? Didn?t seem to bother Landry, but for some reason I?m surprised. With that small word, Bourin gives us a feel of what it must have been like to not be the nobility and Bohemond?s attraction to an impressionable young girl.

    I?m going to look up Bohemond himself, he has quite a role to come in real life, I want to see who HIS parents were for him to call others vassel.




    I don?t understand the last sentence in this section, can somebody help? Pere Ascelin is writing to the folks back home (how long do you think it took one of his letters to GET back home) and Flaminia seems to send (dechifferait) a letter which talks about the chains of fidelity which ought not to be broken? Huh? Did you all understand that one?

    The part about the Nicene Creed, they all knew it and they thought they?d recite it?when was it, at the beginning of the battle, that was nice, it seems kind of unrealistic but it?s certainly idealistic.

    I?m really enjoying the French in this section for some reason and the entire experience!

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 30, 2002 - 10:24 am
    Ginny, from the start I was wondering whether the Pilgrims were using those holy words as "Par Ste Sophie et Par XXXX" before almost every sentence they said for religious reasons, or if they were using them for a totally different reason. There are so many of them. Is that authentic I wonder?

    There is a link above explaining the lineage of Bohemond whose father was of noble birth, but not his mother.

    In my French/English dictionary, trebuchet is a small bird trap.

    It continues to baffle me how so many living creatures could follow the Crusades, as they needed food, tents, nursing equipment, cots, armemants, clothing, etc. etc. and still be on the move all at the same time. Or did they move ahead in spurts, stop for a week, month, year before they continued on their march to fight and conquer.

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    November 30, 2002 - 10:57 am
    Eloise, I agree about the "Par XXXX" thing, I have no idea, but it almost sounds like swearing, doesn't it? I doubt that they would be swearing, considering their mission, but it sure sounds like it, and Bourin does fo her research, we have seen that even tho she bends the facts (and I wonder why, too?)

    Also I think in the following Crusades they did arrange in advance for all you mention, I agree with you, it's mind boggling and the perkiness is the most mind boggling thing in the face of all that STUFF going on , the awful stuff, did they think they were invincible, like the Boxers in the Boxer Rebellion?




    A long while back we read Timeline by Michael Crichton who had researched that era pretty well, as I recall it was a few hundred years after this one, but I think some of the stuff is still valid, here are two links from that discussion, one on the Castle of the day and one from Nova on the trebuchet:

    Siege of a Castle With All Points Explained and NOVA explains the trebuchet!


    Let me go save a photo of the trebuchet, I seem to remember it?s animated on the Nova site.

    ginny

    Ginny
    November 30, 2002 - 11:37 am


    An excellent site with many references to Islam and Byzantium produced these illustrations:

    Lord Vulgamore's Medieval Manuscript

    Here are three really good animated siege weapons:





    First the catapult from the Roman days, not quite as fast as shown here hahahahaha


    The Trebuchet being the 12th century, it's obvious the connection between the catapulta and the trebuchet.





    Next the ballista, a modified form from Roman days.

    This thing would pierce armor, with that arrow, and the introduction of the crossbow made an end to the knight in shining armor, his armor did not protect him.



    And finally we have the battering ram, what's interesting about this is that the Roman soldiers, with their own shields, used to make a mobile covering as well, called the testudo or turtle, because their overlapping shields made them look like turtles approaching the castle, there's a marvelous rendition of this on Trajan's column in Rome, I'll try to go get a photo of it.

    I loved the Nova site and their problems in making a working trebuchet!!

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 30, 2002 - 02:36 pm
    Ginny, Those animated weapons are extraordinaires I think they are spectacular. I don't want to lose them, will you put them up in the heading? they fit right in as we try to understand the whole thing regarding the Crusades. I never studied it before, so, as we go along with what Justin and others contribute, I am learning so much here.

    Trebuchet in my Larousse says textually: n.m. 1. Pige pour les petits oiseaux. 2. Anc. Petite balance de precision, utilisee pour peser de trs faibles quantites de matires ou pour verifier le poids des monnaies. I guess because it is no longer used as a weapon, the dictionnary took that meaning out.

    Regarding 'Par XXX'I was going to suggest swear words too like people say 'my god' 'christ' or 'jesus' every third word, but in that context, it does seem strange for people to go on such a Crusade and swear. We would have to ask Bourin what this means. It is jarring in the long run.

    Elo•se

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    November 30, 2002 - 03:34 pm
    Ginny - You asked: "and Flaminia seems to send (dechifferait) a letter which talks about the chains of fidelity which ought not to be broken? Huh? Did you all understand that one?

    First, Pre Ascelin is witing Berthe La Hardie in Constantinople where she remained very sick with Flaminia. The letter is not going all the way to France. In the letter he will be giving Berthe news about Ala•s, Brunissen and Landry. But Bourin mentions as an aside that letters carriers were monks going from convent to convent. I guess a letter could take months to arrive at its destination.

    Elo•se

    Second 'Dechiffrer' has nothing to do with numbers, it translates to 'decipher' I guess Pre Ascelin said that because his writing was either not so good or that the letter would be in tatters when it arrived, I don't know. Also he wrote so the bond that tied the family together should not be broken.

    Ginny
    November 30, 2002 - 04:12 pm
    THANK you Eloise, that makes so much more sense about the letter and the decipher and it actually going to Berthe, did those at home never hear, perhaps, except from these wandering monks IF they made it, jeepers, I wondered about that, what a time that must have been.

    I've asked Pat to put the siege weapons in the heading too, once she gets up the Antioch stuff and the weapons it will be quite a sight!

    Here is one of the things she is about to put up, it is a wonderful shot of art from the times:




    This is from The Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusades, and the text is fascinating, it says:


    The turning point in the First Crusade was the victory at Antioch on 28 June 1098, which to many of the crusaders was accomplished with the assistance of an army of angels, saints, and the ghosts of their dead, led by St. George. Not long after the battle it was depicted over the door of the church of St. George (see above) at Fordington in Dorset.



    Isn?t that fascinating? So I will be quite interested to see whose ghost may attend the battle in this book, and isn?t it interesting that they put this up almost immediately after, NEAT!!

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    December 1, 2002 - 08:18 am
    Part 4 end of chapter 1.

    When Bohemond heard that they were holding Turc traitors prisonner he decided to get rid of them by roasting them on a spit to feed his starving Pilgrams. In his usual cavalier way, he gave instructions: Ce soir lˆ ˆ la nuit tombante, tandis que tout le monde etait occupe ˆ preparer les maigres rogatons du souper, Bohemond ordonna qu'on fit sortir de prison les captifs turcs qu'il y detenait. Il les livra au bourreau, les fit egorger, puis commanda qu'on allum‰t un grand feu. Il exigea qu'on les mit ˆ la broche, qu'on les accommod‰t avec soin comme pour tre manges. ... les espions captures seraient traites ainsi et serviraient de nourriture aux seigneurs et au peuple affames...

    Bonemond ordered to strangle all Turkish traitors and to prepare and roast them on a spit to be eaten by his troups and his starving Pilgrims. No doubt that our little group stayed alive as well thanks to cannibalism.

    We are much too soft to resort to such acts of barbarism. We could not even think that we would starve even for one day, imagine starving for months on end. I am positive that there was no one overweight except in palaces in the Middle Ages.


    Elo•se

    Ginny
    December 1, 2002 - 09:14 am
    Dear Eloise, I think you need a medal of combat hahahhhaha! Bless your subtle heart, have now landed on the RIGHT chapter, hahahaa, your cannibalism brought me up short, I thought?I have read that.

    You?d think that eating that flesh would condemn them, huh? Couldn?t be blessed, or could it?

    Cannibalism rears it's head in the most strange places, usually not spoken of, and is always a shock I think, not usually attended by such cavalier pronouncements, it would be interesting to research the history of cannibalism, wouldn?t it? This thing brings up so many interesting points..




    Anyway, here?s a black and white photo of St. Sophia, it?s spectacular, from the Oxford book, you can see why Flaminia and the others in 4-2 were elevated and awed.


    I found the writing in this chapter beautiful as far as I?ve gone, (313), the suffering of Berthe is beautifully if horribly rendered in the French, and the descriptions of the church are breathtaking, I thought.

    It?s one time when the grandeur of the French takes over and paints a picture you might not get in English, I?m enjoying this very much (when I?m in the right chapter) haahahah




    Boy that initial description of Berthe as a dried out skeleton of a bird is certainly powerful, huh? It?s amazing the similes and metaphors Bourin sprinkles the text with.

    I really feel sorry for poor Flaminia here, she?s lost all her parental figures, she?s alone now in Constantinople, her family went on before, am I correct in thinking that they are NOT starving back in Constantinople?

    Do you think all the noblemen were starving or just the foot pilgrims? I thought an ?army travels on its stomach,? it?s kind of hard to know how they would be able to attack anything and here is our Alais 5 months pregnant, and 15 years old, did I read that correctly?

    So Berthe is dead, and pitifully also, I feel sorry for her too, but if you?re going to have to die it was nice they carried her into St. Sophia, right before hand, what a place.

    What do you all think of Berthe?s death bed conversation and advice to Flaminia? There's an interesting book called How We Die by a doctor, caused quite a stir a while back, he seems to think very little of death bed conversations, what is your view on them?

    I see what Andronic?s opinion of it was, loved her running and her shadow in front of her if I understood that correctly: ?En courant, elle s?eloigna dans la lumire bleu‰tre qui projetait sone ombre devant elle.?

    Je regret que mon clavier tenait a faire la langue d?anglais. Il n?y a rien d?autre a faire que de faire les choses etant ce qu?elles sont.

    I can see why people find it hard to put down, I need to find out what happens to her, reading on,

    ginny

    Justin
    December 1, 2002 - 01:40 pm
    Maalouf says the Turkish spies were roasted alive. Their screams were to be a warning to the Turks not to send any more spys. Tant pis, I think the spies were Greek catholics who were expected to blend well with the French catholics. The Greeks did that because their familes were held inside the walls as hostage for their return.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    December 2, 2002 - 05:12 am
    Ginny - I don't think I thanked you for the wonderful, absolutely marvalous link above of LORD VULGAMORE'S MEDIEVAL MANUSCRIPT. I am not finished browsing through that. It is a mine of historical information and you can spend hours absorbing it. THANK YOU MY DEAR.

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    December 2, 2002 - 05:58 am
    Isn't that something, Eloise? Have written him for permission too, want to use those in Julius if nowhere else, I think that's a spectacular site.

    It's almost a split personality type thing we're seeing here, we've got the ghastly facts that Justin is providing and even in the text, cannibalism, roasted alive (jeepers) I was reading last night in a surprisingly sketchy account of this that more than 300,000 Crusaders attacked Atnioch, surely that is not correct?

    And they were all starving and wounded and in the midst of this we have this wonderful love story and all this idealism, it's hard to compute the two. Separating them, one small group in Constantinople and Flaminia still hoping for Jerusalem, and the other in the thick of the thing, is an effective technique as it shows the difference in their attitudes, or I see one, anyway.

    I swear, tho, if one more character soupira s, I'm going to scream. It's driving me nuts. Are there no other synonyms in French for that word? Every time I see it I now get irritated beyond all measure.

    I woke up thinking about soupcon, there's that "sou" or "soup" again, and looked it up in a dictionary but was dissatisfied with the explanation, do you have a good dictionary that explains the origin of French words, Eloise? I am interested in the etymology of that prefix?

    So soupira?d ginny hahahahaha

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    December 2, 2002 - 06:52 am
    Ginny - From my Larousse, "Soupon , n.m. (du latin suspicere, regarder) 1. opinion defavorable ˆ l'egard de qqn...." Or in English and French, "suspect". I think that the prefix in "soupira" reminds you too much of the word "soup". "Soupir" is a very effective word that describes what happens when an emotion makes your heart skip a beat. In English, a sigh is not used as much because it does not quite render the meaning that 'soupir' has in French, besides it sounds musical.

    Justin - Why do you think that if Maalouf said the Turcs were the spies? "think the spies were Greek catholics who were expected to blend well with the French catholics"

    Elo•se

    Justin
    December 2, 2002 - 11:44 pm
    Eloise: Conditions in the middle east were in a state of flux at the time. The Seljuk Turks were new comers to the area. The Byzantines, most of whom were Greek Catholic and Armenian Catholic, were predominant. The Seljuk Turks took Antioch just three years before the Crusaders appeared. The city at the time of capture belonged to Alexius Comnenus. Thats why he appealed to the Pope for help. The great majority of the population in Antioch both at the time of capture by the Turks and when the French laid seige, were Greek catholics. The Byzantine Emperor was Greek (orthodox) Catholic. When the French laid seige to Antioch there were only a few Turks in town and they were primarily soldiers. When the Emir wanted spies he certainly would not go to Turkish soldiers. Their appearance would be a dead give away. I must check my sources but I am quite sure he chose his spies from among the Greek Catholic inhabitants of Antioch.He could easily manipulate these people by holding the family hostage. When Maalouf says they are Turkish spies, he means they are spies for the Turkish cause, not that the spies are Turks. Comnene's people were among the French so the Antioch Greeks could mix without outward clues to give them away. The spies were quite successful for some time before they were caught.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    December 3, 2002 - 12:25 pm
    Je suis au lit avec la grippe. Patience, a va se passer dans quelques jours.

    Elo•se

    Ginny
    December 3, 2002 - 12:58 pm
    Oh pauvre malade Eloise, I do hope you feel better, we'll attempt to hold up our end by getting to the end of Part IV, this week, won't we Justin? I got up at 3:32 am, thought now TODAY I can read Les Per and got caught up in other stuff, will be in here a demain with 3 and 4 by tomrorow, to hold up my end!

    Hope you feel better!

    ginny

    Sharon E
    December 3, 2002 - 12:59 pm
    Elo•se, je suis desolee que vous tes malade. J'espre que vous alliez mieux tout de suite. Sharon

    Justin
    December 3, 2002 - 10:43 pm
    Flaminia est ˆ moi. Elle se souvenir la trve de dieu. C'est part du serment de chevallier et agreable a toutes quand ils etait consacree. Il engage ne tuer ni battre pas pendant le Careme, tout l'Avent et toutes fetes religieuse. Des mercredi soleil couchant jusqu au lundi suivant soleil levant, l'Eglise avait interdit de se battre. Pourquoi ces chevalliers le refuse de connaitre maintenant sur pelerinage?

    Ginny
    December 4, 2002 - 03:00 pm
    Well! I don?t know how you could get more action or plot than in these few chapters, I?ve really enjoyed the reading today.

    We have ice storms and I?m not sure how long I can stay on, so I built a huge fire, turned on Yo Yo Ma, and settled down to be transported into Antioch, and I think Bourin did a super job of the motivations and feelings of each of the characters.

    I really feel sorry for Flaminia, she?s quite torn, she first is strong, then he gets a divorce (thought the terms of divorce were interesting, didn?t you? ) and she wavers back and forth and back and forth but at the end of Part IV, decides she hasn?t come as far as she has in her life to stop believing now, I really enjoyed her struggles, bless her heart.

    As well as the rest of them, I feel sorry for all of them: poor Landry with the amputation, did you CATCH that cauterization by fire? Hello? How on earth did anybody live back then, can you just pause and imagine for a moment? I think that?s the way they used to do wounds in the Civil War, too, and my own grandfather was a doctor (his daughter, my mother, was born in 1908, ) I bet things had not changed too much then either, AWFUL.




    There?s a lot I would like to comment on in this section, I?ll have to spread it out over several days once some of the things I?m confused on you all hopefully clear up. We do see the visions of the departed and saints, and we see the bishop and the Pope?s envoy dismiss these, I found that interesting.

    I do not understand what ?la sainte lance? actually is. I can see it?s being raised in procession, and I can see it turned the tide, but what IS it, actually, can anybody say?




    Eloise, I?m so glad you feel better, and THANK you for that in depth explanation of soupira, it makes such a difference.

    I notice that the ParXXX comes in groups? It?s not used all the time, this section seems mercifully free of it.

    So Alais has a girl , now named for Bohemond?s sister, and she worries he won?t think it worthy, bad luck, interesting. I wonder?I wonder how she can hope that she?ll end up with him, actually, I note the sister saying it can?t be HIS, it?s a girl, hahhahah, jeepers.

    So we have fire and famine, you might say we?re almost walking thru Hell and still they keep their faith, it?s quite interesting, thru it all, they hold fast, some of them like Herbert Chauffecire , have lost heart, do I understand that right on the top of 381? Some fare ?decourages, fourbus, ayant perdu foi et vaillance. ?

    What happened to them?




    I am not sure I am understanding the conversation about the horse, on page 383, either, they seem to be saying the head of a horse would do for 2 or three souls, the guts? (tripes) would do for 5 and I don?t know what that poule is for 8 or 9, should I not ask, or would I rather not know? Are they contemplating here killing the war horses?

    Have got a lot more to say, especially about the vision of Berthe and what she said, but will wait and see what others have to say!

    Sharon, how good to see you here, and Justin, that?s an excellent question, I don?t know the answer, let?s see what our Malade yet Magnificent Eloise thinks!

    ginny

    Justin
    December 4, 2002 - 10:40 pm
    The Holy Lance is purported to be the one used by a Roman Centurian at the crucifixion of Christ to put him out of his misery. The wound was probably intended as a coup de gras. As I understand it, this puncture was common in crucufixions. There are many stories about the finding of the Lance in Antioch. Some say it was planted by the finder. Others say that it was just some rusty old spear that was dropped by a Byzantine and has no significance other than that. Others say it is the lance that pierced the side of Jesus and that the finder had a holy vision telling him where to look. Who knows? Having said all that one must also say that the finding of the lance rejuvenated the crusaders into plodding on to Jerusalem.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    December 5, 2002 - 06:32 am
    If I was able to stay in bed, I would. I feel better but a bit shaken. No matter.

    Ginny, mon chou, je pense aussi que Jeanne Bourin sait comment diriger son roman. Elle demeure rivee sur le thme des croisades, mais de temps en temps elle en sort pour laisser la chance au lecteur de respirer un peu. Elle est sage de ne pas seulement parler des affrontements entres camps ennemis, comme beaucoup d?historiens font parce qu?elle perdrait des lecteurs en cour de route. Elle y apporte aussi l?element indispensable ˆ la survivance de la race humaine en y introduisant des femmes. C?est la vie.

    Pages 381, 383, nous assistons ˆ une autre disette. Toute l?armee des Croises crvent de faim dans la belle Antioche. Les uns mangent du cheval, des tripes de chvres, d?autres des chaussures, des os pour vivre. Au fait, le cheval est vendu ici ˆ Montreal et j?en ai mange quelques fois (sorry, horse lovers. But I prefer beef). des poules, (chicken).

    Bohemond qui se souvient d?Ala•s leur fait parvenir des vivres. Je ne le decompterait pas trop vite, ce beau mec, au sujet de son attachement pour la petite Ala•s. Il y a des femmes qui captent le c?ur des hommes puissants, mme si elles ne sont pas du mme niveau social que lui et les font faire tout ce qu?elles veulent. Songez ˆ Napoleon et Josephone.

    Non Ginny, je ne crois pas que les hommes qui disent qu?ils perdent la foi la perdent vraiment. La foi est trop encree dans l?‰me et ce n?est pas seulement pour un decouragement qu?ils abandonneraient leur foi. Au sujet de la lance, je n?ai jamais entendu cela dans la pratique de la religion ici chez nous. Merci Justin pour cette information. Oui c?est certainement cela qui leur a donne du courage pour continuer jusqu?ˆ Jerusalem.

    Alors que les croises observaient la bataille du haut des ramparts, Flaminia parmi ceux-lˆ. Ici, Bourin nous sort juste ˆ temps, parce qu?elle sait que nous ne sommes pas de ceux qui aiment la guerre avec leurs morts, leurs blesses, la faim, la maladie. Elle nous replonge dans l?aventure amoureuse lorsqu?Andronic appara”t soudainement vtu en moine.!!!!

    Elo•se

    Justin
    December 7, 2002 - 12:56 am
    Ici nous sommes a le bataille pour l'Antioche. Quelq'un a ouvre le port derniere. Grande Victoire. Nous entrons furtivement dans le port derniere et nous commencons le massacre. Une fois ˆ interieur nous voyons Andronic, le moine fausse, encore. L'amour rentre l'histoire. Ils sauvent eux-memes ˆ mourant et embrassent.

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    December 7, 2002 - 05:28 am
    First I would like you to know that I heard from a friend who called Ginny and she is OK, but they have no electricity. Two wood stoves to keep warm two lamps and the telephone. It looks like the ice storm was a bad one just like we had here in Quebec which brought all the power lines down. Strange how we have slowly counted on electricity for our very survival, it depends on it.

    Justin - One more time we see the massacre of war in Antioch. What do you mean by "Ils sauvent eux-memes ˆ mourant et embrassent." Do you mean that they save themselves from dying in kissing?

    Elo•se

    Justin
    December 7, 2002 - 10:47 pm
    Eloise: You must be amused by my little elocutions. What I wanted to say was that "they saved themselves from dying (by killing a threatening Turk) and then embraced." My effort continues.

    Pendant le massacre Andronic il propose marrier Flaminia. Elle lui refuse. Elle pense c'est un peche mortel marrier Andronic. Pendant que tout environ leur les chretiens tuent les meres et les enfants et leur marquent avec la croix du Christ. Comment mineur le peche de Flaminia para”tre. C'est presque enfantin.

    Qu'est que veut dire "relevailles", "Churching", "Purification"? Tout a.

    Ginny
    December 8, 2002 - 07:05 am
    Am back, somewhat colder but none the less chuffed d'avoir fini (finis?) my first book in French in a long time, and it was a LONG book and it was a book with some difficulty and I'm proud to have completed it in such wonderful company as you all.

    We did lose power and have two fireplaces, but only one (the one in the bedroom ) has a wood stove, so by the light of the open roaring fireplace in the living room one morning as the sun came up I thought it would be fitting to complete Part V by hearth side, and I must say it did give a strange feeling to the enterprise, sort of a kinship?

    What can I say about Part V? It's apparent to me a sequel is or will be in the works, we need to find out about Alais, who remained behind, we need to find out if Flaminia who wavers, even again, will end up married, after all if the church does an annulment she would be free, right?

    And of course, Brunissen, I don't want to spoil it for those not finished but I thought the author pushed coincidence just un peu trop here with this amazing appearance of the character from the past I?m all for tying things together, but that?s a bit much, and of course, ON to Jerusalem, so there?s more in store.

    I found the warring barons quite interesting, it would seem men of power always get into these fixes, huh? And the purpose here notwithstanding, they once again argue.

    The mix of real figures with the fictional gives a certain panache to the work, it?s quite unusual I think, and I?ve enjoyed learning about this First Crusade, of which I knew nothing.

    Thank you Justin for explanation of the sacred lance, I do see now in Part V the explanation, not sure why the author does that, to inspire curiosity or whatever, but at least it?s supposedly the lance that pierced Christ?s side at the crucifixion. Why on earth did they do that?

    I have read the true cause of death by crucifixion is suffocation, can?t imagine what the spear would show, do any of you know?

    At any rate, that and the star in the sky and the manifestation of so many saints and dead, (but curiously tampering with history and leaving out St. George) raised the passions of the group to new heights.

    I don?t know how anybody eats dog or horse, I really don?t.

    Not to mention cat.

    It makes you wonder what they?ll do, at this point they are closer to Jerusalem than going home, and you wonder IF they will ever get back home and what of Bohemond, who in real life took over the city and had an ignominious end? And what of Alais? And what of Landry, how can he travel with one leg?

    I think a sequel must be either written or in order!

    Have enjoyed our pilgrimage so much, you have done a MAGNIFICENT job, our Eloise, Notre Pauvre Malade, with your first book led for us, nobody could have done it better!

    We have conquered just like Les Peregrines!~~

    Three cheers for all of us! Pilgrims and Pioneers, All!~

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    December 8, 2002 - 01:11 pm
    I am so happy that you are safe Ginny because without power life can be difficult especially if you are computerless. (can I invent a word?)

    Ce dernier chapitre fait un dernier lien avec les personnages du roman et le cheminement normal que nous nous attendions de voir avec toute cette bande de bouillants jeunes gens.

    Ala•s restee ˆ Antioche pour prendre soin de son bebe restera aussi sous l?empreinte de son Bohemond qui souhaite posseder cette ville comme un bijou precieux et que son Ala•s y sera disponible pour d?autres ebats amoureux. L?histoire ne nous dis pas s?il en fera sa femme, mais l?auteure nous en laisse le soin de deviner la suite.

    Landry en perdant une jambe gagnera plus d?humilite c?est certain mais c?est triste de le voir perde sa fougue de guerrier. Sa vie n?est pas finie pour autant vous verrez, si un jour vous lisez la suite des Peregrines qui a pour t”tre Ç Compagnons d?eternite È je crois.

    Flaminia, qu?Andronic deguise en moine poursuit depuis Constantinople, se livre ˆ lui, impuissante de lui resister plus longtemps. Ne pouvant pas reconcilier les interdictions de sa conscience, mais etant humaine, elle a cede ˆ son amour. La sequelle de ce livre reserve un sort cruel au couple qui s?etablit ˆ Jerusalem aprs la conqute.

    Brunissen, elle, durant cette Croisade et avec sa nature plus spirituelle que charnelle, se donne compltement au service de Dieu abandonnant ˆ son sort son ancien amoureux deu et blesse.

    This last chapter links us with the characters of the novel with historical figures and we can predict the normal chain of events that this band of passionate youths will take.

    Ala•s stays happily behind in Antioch to take care of her baby secretly hoping that Bohemond will become her ?chevalier servant?. The author leaves us to imagine what will happen in the end with those two.

    Landry looses a leg, but even if he becomes a bit more humble, he remains tied to the story in the sequel to this book called ?Compagnons d?eternite? I think.

    Flaminia, which Andronic pursues disguised as a monk since Constantinople finally gives up the fight between her conscience and her love for him and becomes his. The sequel reveals the sad, cruel fate of that couple as they take up residence in Jerusalem after the conquest.

    Brunissen, who had more of a spiritual than sexual nature, finally realized during the Crusade that she wants to remain in the service of God and she breaks her engagement to her old wounded fiance, who had come all the way from French to see her.


    Elo•se

    Ginny
    December 9, 2002 - 02:39 pm
    Thank you, Eloise, we are fine, yes were computerless (sounds like a good word to me!) and powerless and telephoneless almost 4 days.

    Eloise! Do you mean to say there IS a sequel? Really? What?s the title of it?

    Have you read it all? Would you mind telling us what happened to all of them? Did they make it home?

    I like some of the little touches, like the tombs alongside the road, one of my favorite roads on earth the Via Appia Antica in Rome where of course you can see the tombs lining the old (312 BC) road, it?s very evocative even tho most of them are gone.

    Here's a photo I took just a few months ago, for your interest:



    The Via Appia in 2002


    Did you notice that He bien on page 441 (can?t make the accent?) Does that indicate a person from Provence? Interesting, I thought, up to this time has there been a lot of dialect (I do well to read it at all on sait). Hahaahah

    What did Brunissen mean, by the way, when she said she had thought she was Martha but she was Mary instead? (chapter 5.2) I understand she does not plan to marry Anseau but what does that have to do with Martha and Mary?

    Super discussion, have enjoyed it no end, learned a lot from Eloise and Justin and feel pretty darn good about it!

    ginny

    Sharon E
    December 9, 2002 - 04:31 pm
    Je regrette que je n'ai pas eu le temps pour lire ce livre. Je vais le finir mais malheureusement la discussion sera finie par ce temps-lˆ. J'ai eu beaucoup d'engagements sociales pour h™ter pendant ce saison d'advent et quand j'ai eu un peu de temps pour lire, je ne voulais pas penser assez pour le lire. Aprs mercredi prochain, je peux avoir le temps pour lire.

    Je suis trs fire de ceux comme Ginny et Justin qui ne sont pas courants en francais qui ont perservere (c'est un mot?) ˆ le lire ˆ la fin. Elo•se, vous avez fait des efforts prodiges pour nous instruire du premier croise. Merci ˆ tous de vous qui ont ajoute des choses interessantes ˆ la discussion. Sharon

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    December 9, 2002 - 04:56 pm
    Yes Ginny, Jeanne Bourin usually writes books in sequal. The book is is called "Les Compagnons d'Eternite". I read it a few years ago.

    The croises invade Jerusalem. I remember a bit of that novel and what happens to the group after they come into the city.

    Flaminia and Andronic, now married, and Landry decide to take up residence in Jerusalem and start a Book Binding business which was their trade back home in France. Several of the lesser characters in the book stayed too.

    Landry adjusts to life with only one leg and he falls in love with Bietrix.

    Brunissen becomes a nun in a convent in Jerusalem and keeps in close contact with her sister Flaminia and writes to Ala•s who stayed behind in Antioch hoping for a marriage with Bohemond but Bourin would not have altered history that much. Bohemond recognizes his daughter and even enjoys fatherhood briefly.

    Flaminia marries Andronic when his divorce comes through and works with her in the book binding and book 'enluminure' shop and he is learning the trade alongside his wife somewhat a bit disenchanted from his new career escaping often to take off horseback riding.

    Icascia never having forgiven him for divorcing her in spite of the fact that she dispised him, seeks revenge in a most cruel way you could imagine. She had spies watching him and knowing that he loved horseback riding in the wilderness, she pays a servant to administer a special drug to the horse which makes him run wild. Andronic is thrown off the horse but his foot remains caught in the stirrup, he is dragged a long distence on rocky ground which eventually kills him. When Flaminia is brought to see Andronic's dead body she lays on top of him and stays there for hours completely devastated. Finally she goes back home to France having completely lost her zest for life.

    Le Pre Ascelin comes back to France with her and takes her in charge trying to make her come back to life.

    "He bien on se battrait donc!" means so then we will fight again.'

    I love the picture above Ginny, you mean this is from the Crusades?

    I think that you all have courage and spunk to read such a difficult book. Congratulations all of you, you get a hug from me for this most difficult French discussion. Thank you all for sticking it out with me to the end.

    Elo•se

    Justin
    December 9, 2002 - 11:06 pm
    Je suis proche le fini du livre.( 5:2) Le plaisir etait ˆ moi. Eloise, merci beaucoup. Sans votre aide je le n'a pas li tout.

    Justin
    December 9, 2002 - 11:13 pm
    Ginny you were a constant help in keeping this book alive. I would like to try another work in French but which one, that's the big question. It would be nice to get one that involves more french posters. Eloise is the spark plug who makes it work. When she is at the helm all we need is the right book.

    robert b. iadeluca
    December 10, 2002 - 05:03 am
    Eloise is very busy today taking an exam but in the meantime I'll say that I would participate more if the book were comparatively short and came to a quick solution. I still recommend Short Stories like those of deMaupassant.

    Robby

    Ginny
    December 10, 2002 - 06:22 am
    Sharon, how kind you are, it?s obviously our loss you have not able to have been with us, thank you for your very fine remarks, and we hope to have the pleasure of welcoming you into our next book in our new French Series! (Sounds super, doesn?t it?)

    Justin, what a nice thing to say, thank you, I agree totally with you that Eloise is our spark plug, if Bourin met Eloise then we WOULD have a series, no? hahahaah Your own contributions to the effort were immeasurable: when we flagged or had no idea what was going on historically, you filled in the gaps and made the entire experience more meaningful: we?ve done this as a real team and it?s been very enjoyable!!

    Robby, we?d love to have you join us for another selection, that would be wonderful.

    I think this next time we might enjoy talking about how we came by French at all, those of us not native to the language, and those who are, we?d learn a bit more about each other in the process, perhaps, it might be fun, just something to think about for the future.

    Merci, Eloise, for the wonderful news of the sequel of our little band, and what happened to them, I suspected Bohemond would not be marrying Alais, good to hear what happened to all of them , many thanks!

    Eloise, now in Exams!!??!! I hope that your illness will not affect your effort, you?re an inspiration to all of us, it?s very exciting to me, let us know how you did! No the photo is of an older culture than the Crusades, however, it IS a road the Crusaders could have walked had they taken a short seque, it?s the Via Appia, in Rome built by Appius Claudius in 312 BC. It ran from Rome to Capua, and one of its famous travelers was St. Paul.

    This section in Les Per made me think of it:



    (Two pages from the end):

    Tous les notres quii sont tombes le long du chemin doivent tre ici?.


    And you know what ? This is an irony of ironies, (bad translation to the end ! hahahaa) that tombes (which should have but Word will NOT put the accent on), I took as meaning ?entombed? and of course immediately thought of the Via Appia, but it MAY mean ?fallen,? what do you think? Here?s where classical allusions (or poor French or both) may interfere? Hahhahaha Right up to the last, too! hahahaah

    ?Those of us who are fallen along the road instead of entombed along the road?? as we know Garin was entombed in the ocean and Berthe?where? Was she entombed at all?

    Well, it?s a nice symbolic representation anyway. Hahaahahah

    (Anything to get a classical allusion in) hahahaaha

    Such fun, this was, the whole thing, the company, the subject, TRES BON.

    ginny

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    December 10, 2002 - 08:08 pm
    Salut tout le monde. J'ai fini. Fini jusqu'en Janvier. Ouf! quel travail, mais j'aime beaucoup etudier et apprendre.

    When we look into another French discussion, we will look at every title suggested and be fairly sure that it will be something people want. We will see after the holidays but for now I am all in preparation up for my big family reunion this Christmas in a chalet in the Laurentians and I have still a lot of cooking to do. There will be 18 of us, my son from Switzerland and his son for 10 days. My daughter from California with her 3 who will stay for 5 days, 4 others will stay for 2 days and 7 of us from Montreal will also be up north in the chalet for at least 5 days. I will see my 4 girls together for the first time in 14 years. This cannot happen very often and I am so excited about it. It will be very special and we can say thanks for the Internet that it could be arranged.

    Justin, I really appreciated your contribution in the historic part of the crusades. I was really in the dark about that and I wish I could have provided more on the subject of what motivated them to do such a thing, but I havn't got a clue. I congratulate you on your French, may I suggest that copying text gives one practice without too much effort and a language really sinks in that way.

    Robby, We will be thinking about discussing a short story as you suggest and if it is something others want too, why not go for it. I hope it will be easier than Les P. this time.

    You have been all so kind to me and I am very touched. Thank you all.

    Elo•se

    Sharon E
    December 10, 2002 - 10:45 pm
    Elo•se, have a great family reunion! That kind of thing makes the holidays very special. We had our whole family together over Thanksgiving for the first time in 2 years. It was chaotic but marvelous. I know it will be the same for you. But what a lot of cooking and preparation! I had a dinner party tonight for our church supper club. It was a lot of work, but nothing like the numbers of people you will have. I look forward to my last engagement next week and being able to sit down and read and relax. Our Christmas will be a very quiet one, but we will have good memories of Thanksgiving.

    Joyeux No‘l ˆ tous et Bonne Annee! Sharon

    Elo•se De Pelteau
    December 13, 2002 - 10:49 am
    Voilˆ mes amis, nous sommes rendus ˆ la fin des Peregrines et je suis bien contente d'avoir eu la chance de participer avec vous et d'apprendre. Vous m'avez fait honneur par votre perseverence et votre determination d'aller jusqu'au bout.

    Pour une autre discussion, je proposerai une autre approche qui serait peut-tre mieux adapte ˆ la situation de lire un livre en franais et de commenter en anglais ou en franais. Nous verrons l'an prochain.

    I want to thank every one of you who came in to discuss this book and I hope you will be with us again when we start another discussion in the new year.

    For those who don't know me very much here is a bit of my French background.

    Both my parents' ancestors came from France a few centuries ago and we spoke French at home. Because my parents met in Winnipeg and my mother had been raised there, they spoke English sometimes and that is how I came to like it. Here at home, we speak French, even if Isabelle married an anglophone she still prefers to speak it, and we speak English when Dan is at home. He speak French very well too.

    I want to wish all of you a Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year until we get back together in 2003 on Serniornet.

    We will be closing this discussion in a few days and it will be made "Read Only".

    Love to all, Elo•se

    GingerWright
    December 13, 2002 - 11:22 am
    Eloise and Ginny, Thank you so much for the enjoyment you gave us. I did like all what I could understand. You have been very kind to me/us. Thanks again.

    Ginger