Martian Chronicles ~ Ray Bradbury ~ 10/02








The Martian Chronicles by Ray Bradbury
Bradbury's Mars is a place of hope, dreams and metaphor - of crystal pillars and fossil seas - where a fine dust settles on the great, empty cities of a silently destroyed civilization. It is here the invaders have come to despoil and commercialize, to grow and to learn - first a trickle, then a torrent, rushing from a world with no future toward a promise of tomorrow. The Earthman conquers Mars...and then is conquered by it, lulled by dangerous lies of comfort and familiarity, and enchanted by the lingering glamour of an ancient, mysterious native race.
Russell Kirk feels that the greatest strength of The Martian Chronicles is its ability to make us look closely at ourselves. In Enemies of the Permanent Things: Observations of Abnormality in Literature and Politics, Kirk states: "What gives [The Martian Chronicles] their cunning is ... their portrayal of human nature, in all its baseness and all its promise, against an exquisite stageset. We are shown normality, the permanent things in human nature, by the light of another world; and what we forget about ourselves in the ordinariness of our routine of existence suddenly bursts upon us as a fresh revelation.... Bradbury's stories are not an escape from reality; they are windows looking upon enduring reality."
Discussion Schedule

October 1 - 7: Rocket Summer - Third Expedition
October 8 - 14: And the Moon Be Still As Bright - The Shore
October 15 - 21: Interim - The Old Ones
October 22 - 28: The Martian - The Long Years
October 29 - 31: There Will Come Soft Rains - The Million Year Picnic




Links and Thought Provokers
Ray Bradbury Mars in Popular Culture
Planet Mars Mars Exploration

Discussion Leader: Nellie

Nellie Vrolyk
Come join me in discussing this classic book of Science Fiction.

sheilak1939
Nellie,

Just ran across your post re: Martian Chronicles. Are you reading it now? I really enjoy the sci-fi genre.

Sheila

Nellie Vrolyk
Sheila, how nice to see you! Yes I have begun a rereading of the book and when I have enough folks showing an interest in discussing it, then we'll do just that.

Are you interested?

The discussion wouldn't start right away. This one is just for people to indicate an interest in discussing the book.

sheilak1939
Hi Nellie,

I'm definitely interested in reading The Martian Chronicles again - with a group. Discussing LOTR was such a wonderful experience, I look forward to this one, too.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Sheila

Nellie Vrolyk
Thanks Sheila!

We need one more person who is interested in discussing this book and then I can find out when we can do it. But it won't be for a while, I think.

TigerTom
Nellie,

It has been YEARS since I read that book. I really liked it. I was just a teen who was a nut about Science Fiction.

If your discussion is still on, sign me up.

Tiger Tom

Nellie Vrolyk
Tiger Tom, I would like to discuss this book so with you joining us there are enough of us to have a nice discussion. Thanks for coming in here.

What would be a good time?

TigerTom
Nellie,

Any time that is right for you.

Tiger Tom

GothamCity
I grew up with Bradbury and Asimov et al. Would love to join the group.I'm new at this so please advise how to do this. Thanks. GothamCity

Nellie Vrolyk
Hello GothamCity, the discussion of The Martian Chronicles will take place in October. Someone will be sending along an e-mail of welcome to tell you more about it.

Rednell
Hi Nellie, I would be interested in joining this discussion group in October. Rednell

Nellie Vrolyk
Hello Rednell! You are most welcome to join us! See you in October

Ginny
OH BOY the Martian Chronicles, I have had a copy for ages, so long the pages are yellow, and I have ALWAYS wanted to read it! I'm quite excited about this, and looking forward to it very much!

ginny

annafair
This is was one of my favorite books and I loved it ..it has been YEARS since I read it but I know the story stayed with me a L-O-N-G time..I have only a vague memory of how it ended but I know it was a fascinating book and I would like to revisit it and discuss it sooo I do plan on being here..anna

Nellie Vrolyk
Hello Ginny! Welcome and more welcome!

Annafair, of course I can add you to the list! Everyone is always welcome!

Ginny
I love this book (I'll wait for the discussion to start) but want to say I have NEVER read anything like it and I can see why people like Sci Fi.

We really must get the word out, nobody should miss this thing.

ginny

Nellie Vrolyk
Ginny, I love that you like this book -and it is a great one; perfect for someone new to Sci-Fi to get their first taste of the genre.

Esme Watson
Nellie, sign me up.

Nellie Vrolyk
Will do, Esme!

ALF
We are delighted to have you here. We were once all newcomers at Seniornet. Please feel comfortable to ask any questions. If you scroll down to the last post and push the 2nd button in -"Subscribe" you will be taken to the last post you read, each time you log in.

Count me in too Nellie, I just ordered this book.

Nellie Vrolyk
ALF, you are counted in!

ALF
I have received my book and have already read the first half. I am impressed. I can not wait to talk about this story, especially one particular section.

We will be welcoming a new reader by the name of Anita (I hope she finds her way here). I have linked her to us as she loves SciFi. I told her to introduce herself and Nellie would take her into the fold.

Marvelle
A friend just gave me the 3 tape mini-series of "The Martian Chronicles." It stars Rock Hudson, Roddy McDowall, Darren McGavin and Bernadette Peters. I think it aired on TV in the 70s or 80s.

I just finished re-reading the book and am reluctant to view the videos right now. I'm afraid I'd be disappointed in the TV adaption and the depiction of the golden people, the fluted columns of rain, the harp book ... just everything. Has anyone seen the mini-series?

Marvelle

Nellie Vrolyk
ALF, I look forward to seeing your friend Anita here!

Marvelle, I did see the mini series way back when it was first shown, but can't remember anything about it.

ALF
I didn't know that this was done as a mini-series. I finished the book on my flight to NY State yesterday . When I return home I am going to see if i can find the video of the Chronicles. I really enjoyed it and it is full of meaty discussion material.

No sign of our "newbie" yet. She's new to Snet so she asked for the link to SciFi and I provided them for her.

GothamCity
Hello, Nellie and Alf- Thanks for the warm welcome and encouragement. I am a sci-fi fan from early childhood(long before Star Trek etc.) I belong to the Buck Rogers generation!!! I have long since transferred my affections from "Ming" to "Darth Vader" ...I always find the villains more interesting than the heroes.Do I just log on on Oct. 1st to join in and get reading "assignments"? Please advise. I'm really excited about this. Thanks again. Anita (GothamCity)

Nellie Vrolyk
Welcome Anita! We don't have 'reading assignments' for you can read the whole book ahead of time, or you can read the parts under discussion; whatever you like.

I will be putting up another heading here with a Discussion Schedule on it very soon.

It's all very informal, so just come and enjoy yourself!

Gramof2
Just got the book from the library. Also has been years since I read it. Janet

ALF
Anita: Make certain that you scroll to the bottom, below the last post and subscribe to the site. That way each time you log on to SNet and click on "Check Subscriptions" you will be brought back to this discussion.

Nellie Vrolyk
Hello Janet! You are very welcome to join us!

HarrietM
I just got the book. I always loved sci-fi as a teen and Ray Bradbury was a particular favorite.

It's been a lot of years since I've given myself the pleasure of reading Bradbury and I'm really looking forward to reading this with all of you.

Harriet

Nellie Vrolyk
Welcome to the discussion Harriet!

Tomorrow is the day it begins!

crabgras
Martian Chronicles is one of my favorite novels. Please sign me up f or discusion group

Nellie Vrolyk
Welcome to the Martian Chronicles!

Are you ready to journey to the Mars of the imagination?
Are you ready to meet the Martians?

Then let the discussion begin!


All thoughts and comments are welcomed

And welcome to crabgras. I'm delighted you are joining us!

ALF
Hello fellow readers:  I'm not quite sure where Nellie wants to start so I'll just  jump right in and attempt to answer the first few questions.  #1.  I do not believe that rockets can alter the weather patterns although there are many who believe that the weather does change after a space shuttle has been launched.  I love the use of Bradbury's metaphors and sensory imagery.  He paints a beautiful landscape, doesn't he?  We learned in Ros's class about this very thing.  The theme here is the struggle between man and nature.
The first paragraph you can sense the chill in the air and the frigid temperatures.  BANG!
"A long wave of warmth crossed" and we feel the change coming.  What a great way to begin a journey to another planet.

YLLA:  Why were Mr and Mrs K unhappy?  He's portrayed as a  rude, jealous tyrant  and I don't blame her for dreaming about Mr. "Right" even if he would beam up as  an alien.  It's sad to think that other planets might experience the same downfalls, hatreds and cynicism as we encounter right here on earth.  Is that what he was trying to say?  Mr and Mrs. are in the tedium of their marriage? I guess that answers the next question in re. to "human" likeness.

What's with the name YLLA?  Why did RB choose that name as well as Dr Nlle?
Everything seems breathless in this chapter, waiting, waiting and in the end, she looks at the empty desert, exhausted.
Have any of you ever had a telepathic experience?
 

HarrietM
Many years ago when I was reading Bradbury short stories fairly often, I thought of RB as a poet in the fantasy genre. It's a sentimental trip back in time for me to read his work again. For me, so much of his imagery is evocative and emotional.

I thought RB had a knack for setting a scene so that I could smell the fragrances, feel the emotions, see the locale and identify with the characters. He's an acquired taste, in the sense that the more I read his stuff, the more I felt the magic of his writing. And the more I felt his magic, the more susceptible I was to his symbolism and imagery.

I can BELIEVE in Bradbury's "rocket summer." The ordinary Ohio winter gives way to the heat and richness of summer as the rocket begins its first journey to Mars. There is literal heat in the air from the exhaust and symbolic heat also as man reaches upward toward a planetary neighbor. The First Mars Expedition launches with hopes of finding...what?

And on Mars, a golden-eyed people both alien and familiar await the Earth intruders. Golden fruit grows from their crystal walls. Liquids metamorph into scarves for a feminine neck. Incurious minds and inflexibility abound among many. Like their earthly counterparts too many of the Martians distrust and fear the unknown. Yet the unknown in the form of a spaceship is now reaching out toward both the Rocket crew and the Martians alike.

Harriet

crabgras
I imagine the reason Bradbury choose those names was to give a sense of foreigness or alieness. You can scan them, read them , But i defy you to pronounce them. They don't look like Earth names. Since a truly "alien" species would be unintelligable to us, in terms of the story, Bradbury had to imbue them with "human characteristics". In fact , there are far more "alien" humans on earth, than those portrayed as Bradbury's Martians.

Nellie Vrolyk
Lovely posts all

ALF, Bradbury paints beautiful scenes with his words. I can see and even feel that small Ohio town in the grip of winter; and then that wave of warmth comes and for a while winter is no more. Do you know that description of the wave of warmth reminded me of the chinook winds we get mainly in southern Alberta in which a warm wind comes over the mountains and raises the winter temperatures, sometimes by quite large amounts.

You ask why Mr. and Mrs. K are unhappy. I think they are bored. They are bored with each other, bored with their home, bored with their lives.

What about the dream Ylla has of things to come?

I love the little discussion Mr. and Mrs. K have on whether or not there is life on the third planet:
Mr. K turned away. She stopped him with a word. "Yll?" she called quietly. "Do you wonder if - well, if there are people living on the third planet?"

"The third planet is incapable of supporting life," stated the husband patiently. "Our scientists have said there's far too much oxygen in their athmosphere."

"But wouldn't it be fascinating if there were people? And they travelled through space in some sort of ship?"



Harriet, just reading the lovely descriptions of the Martian house is a special treat for me - I'm thinking of another term but can't come up with it.

crabgras, yes the names look alien and are not easy to pronounce. And aliens in science fiction stories always have human characteristics because those are the only things we know and understand.

It is time for me to go now but I will be back tomorrow.

HarrietM
Our book never tells us exactly what happened to the men in the first Mars rocket but we are led to believe that they were murdered by Ylla's jealous husband?

Mr. K professes that the idea of life on Earth is ridiculous, but like all of the Martians he surely must feel some of the thought waves of Nathaniel York and Bert as their incoming rocket approaches Mars. All over Mars some part of the alien perceptions, culture and thoughts of the Earthmen are filtering into the collective telepathic consciousness of Mars.

Ylla's husband, Mr. K, is painted as a sadistic brute, jealous and ungiving, but he is certainly a person who will defend that which he believes belongs to him. As Ylla sings the strange songs of tenderness and love in the unknown language, Mr. K becomes sullen. While his wife hums an alien melody during dinner, he "leaped from his chair and stalked angrily from the room."

Why?

Does he really believe that her images are only imaginary? Mr. K invites his neglected, abused wife out for the evening after dinner, courting her for the first time in quite a while. Yet, during their shared flight of the flame birds Ylla watches the sky...for the rocket... and the alien with the blue eyes? She doesn't respond to her husband. Worst of all, in her sleep she babbles all night to her alien earthly soulmate. A reciprocal loving and telepathic relationship has begun between Ylla and Nathaniel.

Me. K rages at Ylla the next morning. "You should have heard yourself, fawning on him, talking to him, singing with him, oh gods, all night!"

And then Mr. K goes "hunting" in the Green Valley where Ylla senses that the spaceship has landed. The sensitive Ylla can feel a gathering catastrophe in the air, a foreboding that she cannot conceive as being connected with her husband's hunting expedition...until she hears the sound of shots echoing in the distance. As the songs and telepathic thought waves cease abruptly, the obedient Ylla is not even sure that her own perceptions of a tender alien relationship were ever real.

Harriet

ALF
Harriet, that was well outlined. My question is why doesn't Mr. K have any telepathic tendencies as his wife has with the earthman? Is it RB intention to give these aliens the same emotions and frailities that we possess? Does he presume that reading of their shortcomings we might well see our own?

He believed that "Life on earth" was impossible and we, here, assume that life on Mars is as such. This was written 50 years ago and everyone probably thought it was ludicrous to even consider a reach to Mars. The links above in regards to the climate are very interesting Nellie.

HarrietM
Alf, I think Mr. K does have telepathic tendencies. Seems to me that all Martians must have it to a greater or lesser degree in this book. Maybe it varies among individuals? Surely he couldn't have been so infuriated unless he too sensed the reality of Ylla's lover?

At first I thought that the chapter on Ylla was designed to show the culture and artifacts of Mars. Now, I think that it's a mirror on the similarities of the effects of unreasoning emotions on the peoples of both Earth and Mars. Martians can shift the shapes of things around them but they're helpless to shift and change their violent emotions.

So far in the book it's the Martians who are expert at denying reality. York has no trouble accepting Martians and even plunging into a telepathic love relationship with an alien woman. But remember, he's the one who is traveling in search of a new and alien world. He's prepared to see and acknowledge things that no one on Earth has ever imagined...he's in search of a different reality. The Martians are just quietly enjoying their ancient life style. They haven't expressed any yearnings for visitors from outer space.



What would happen if an extraterrestrial space ship landed here on Earth? I wonder, would we welcome it with parades and celebration? Or would we regard it with fear and suspicion?

Are we and the Martians so very different?

Harriet

ALF
Harriet, I don't know. I lived in Roswell for a few months and I hope that I'm the type of person that would open my mind as well as my heart to anyone.

Nellie Vrolyk
Great posts, Harriet! ALF!

You would think that all the Martians would be equally telepathic. Yet Mr. K doesn't seem to exhibit any sign of it. Maybe he hides his reactions better than his wife?

The chapter The Summer Night tells us that another ship of earthlings is nearing Mars. I love the way RB has all the Martians pick up telepathically on things in the earthmen's minds like songs and rhymes. I find this chapter has an eery undertone.

It is interesting that while the characters of the Martians seem very 'human', their surroundings are quite alien. There are caged flowers; golden fruits that grow from the walls of a house made of crystal pillars; a book that speaks when stroked; golden spiders as pets. Different and yet something we can picture in our minds.

More later...

Gramof2
Isn't it interesting how these stories were written over fifty years ago, and we are now reading them in these years that match the headings of 2001, 2002. It never registered in my head that I would even be around in this "future" that Mr. Bradbury imagined.

HarrietM
Nellie, I certainly agree that Bradbury pictured Mars as a place both similar and alien to Earth. My edition of Martian Chronicles pictures a graceful coffee-colored, six-fingered hand caressing a hieroglyphic book on the cover. Took me a while to notice that the hand had six fingers because it was poised on the book so naturally and it looked so "right."

RB mentions that some Martian children sleep with their spider toys? Perhaps there is a fondness for toys of violence and power just as on earth. Martians may not be as serene as their outward appearance might indicate. Emotions are a volatile subject on Mars...look at the masks designed to show impassiveness or smiles or anger...but all masks hide the genuine emotions that flicker over a face in real life. I'm trying to figure out why they use masks. I wonder, can Martians extend the courtesy of "tuning out" on each other's inner thoughts when a mask indicates an impassive mood?

Can a telepathic society offer privacy for individuals? It must be difficult for people to interact when they know a great deal about the inner thoughts of strangers and yet there is no past background of affection or shared experiences. Can telepathic Martians actually be strangers to each other in the context that we view that word on Earth?

Harriet

HarrietM
Hi, Gramof2. Bradbury's writing has mostly weathered pretty well over the last fifty years, I think. Maybe it's because he deals with such essential emotions in his fantasy context. Bradbury couldn't have visualized NASA overseeing every move an astronaut makes, but I think the human element still rings true.

You brought up an old memory of mine, Gram. When I was a teen, I tried to figure out how old I would be at the turn of the new century/millenium in 2000. Of course I couldn't visualize myself aged in my mid-sixties when I was so young, and I couldn't imagine a world entering a new millenium either. Yet, here we all are talking about Martian Chronicles.

Aren't computers and on-line book discussions great? Back in the 1950's I couldn't have dreamed up what we're doing now...sharing a book we've all enjoyed...even though we're so far away geographically. I would have considered our SN Books & Lit discussion to be science fiction fantasy back then!

Isn't it fun?

Harriet

ALF
Harriet:  How interesting that your copy has a 6 fingered hand.  Mine shows two aliens relaxing, viewing the skies.  One of them is holding a "mask" in one hand, while the other is holding the mask up to his face obscuring his "true" identity.
 I'm glad that you've brought that up.  What's with the mask?  Is RB saying that we must camouflage our emotions and affectations?  Are we all concealing our"true" selves" to safegaurd against personal pain and despair, with or without a mask to disguise our emotions ?  You say, all masks hide the genuine emotions that flicker over a face in real life.  Do you think   that we can mask our own attitudes and tenets to fit our moods/situations?

Wouldn't that be great to run your hands over a text and have it sing  out the words to you?
Welcome gramof2: Is this your first book discussion?  We're delighted to have you join us.
 

Nellie will be here shortly to guide us.

Gramof2
I have been reading different areas of the seniornet site for several years, but this is my first book discussion.

Nellie Vrolyk
Gramof2, it sort of boggles my imagination to think that we are living in what fifty years ago was the far future. And it is nothing like Bradbury imagines; and nothing like I imagined either.

But this book works because it is about people and feelings and emotions; it is about what it is to be 'human'. imo.

Harriet, you ask such good questions; most of which I have to mull over a while before I could even hope to give a coherent answer.

ALF, and Harriet also, good points about the masks. I think that we wear masks to hide what we really feel, although our masks are our faces and not true masks.

I have a copy I bought in 1979 and it shows some strange mechanical looking animals on the front cover.

The Earth Men: this chapter has a fair bit of humour in it to me. The whole conversation between Mrs. Ttt and Captain Williams is smile inducing. What do you think? That insane asyllum is quite something, isn't it? Halucinations that are visible to others because of the telepathy. The Martians think that the men from Earth are insane martians. Are the Martians so inside their own minds that they are unaware of the world outside of them? I think this is a marvelous chapter!

ALF
I agree with you Nellie. Didn't you love Mrs Ttt's "watering some flowers that grew in the center of the room?"

She is a humorous one, slamming the door in the faces of four aliens and being ill mannered. Mrs Aii, MrsTtt, etc. passing them on to another entity. (That could go on and on, but what happens when you get to Mr.Zzz?) Miss Rrr tells the captain that earth is a "jungle." How close to the truth is that comment?
Did't you just love Mr. Xxx wearing a mask painted with 3 smiles on it. He thinks only the captain is whacked and the others are secondary hallucinations. If he cures the captain the hallucinations will disappear. If not... well, he puts him out of his misery. Hahahah..

HarrietM
Nellie, Alf, and Janet, I do believe that all of us learn to mask our emotions as we grow up. We try to school our faces not to betray our deepest vulnerabilities. On Mars, the physical masks are designed for this task. Bradbury implies that the masks were originally designed to indicate the current mood of its Martian wearer, to "clue" the observer. Yet look at Mr. K, the first mask wearer in our book and see how HE utilized his mask.

"He...went to the closet, and drew forth an evil weapon. He turned, and upon his face was a mask, hammered from silver metal, expressionless, the mask that he always wore when he wished to hide his feelings."


Mr. K is on his way to commit murder. He calls it "a little hunting" and his soul must surely be filled with rage. His silver mask shows only an admirable stoicism.

Are we really sure that Mr. K has no telepathic capabilities? Why would he carefully manipulate a devious scenario that kept his wife at home and freed himself to find the object of Ylla's affection, if he didn't "sense" the reality of the alien rocket and its occupants? Can the impassive mask, in such contrast with one's true feelings, confuse a Martian observer about the wearer's true intentions?

Later....

Harriet

Nellie Vrolyk
ALF, Harriet, those masks are so interesting: we have Mr. K with his silver mask that shows no expression, and Mr. Xxx with his three smile mask, and also the little girl with her expressionless golden mask. I found the little girl interesting because in her case the mask seemed to express her feelings of disinterest in what the Earth men were telling her; while in case of the adults the masks hid their feelings: Mr. Xxx wears three smiles and yet he is not smiling under that mask, neither is Mr. K expressionless under his mask.

Mr. K did not seem to be in contact with the humans' minds directly like his wife was as far as I could make out. He did have telepathic contact with his wife. And the Summer Night chapter seems to indicate that the telepathic Martians had to become tuned to the new types of minds.

Thank you both for your great posts -you've got me thinking!

Ginny
Hi Everybody, I_m late arriving but have read and enjoyed your comments immensely.

I think that Yll must have had some telepathic abilities, if not, would you call it ESP? He sure tried to alter his normal behavior: he wanted to get her away on a trip, he then kept her home saying the doctor was coming and of course he knew where to go that day and shots were heard. He said he heard her talking in her sleep but I doubt that, something there without rereading sounded fishy, to me.

Or is Bradbury saying in the case of this and the next expedition that a certain kind of person (children....Ylla), are more open to certain understandings?

You_d think that a society with the advancements we are reading about would be way beyond the gun, wouldn_t you?

I love the way Bradbury loses no time in plunging the reader into a strange (alien ahhah) world. You are barely into the book when Mr K brushes his fingers over raised hieroglphys which play as a harp and the house turns to follow the sun. For ten centuries, this civilization has been here.

But as Andrea pointed out, no matter how advanced they are, the behavior of man (jealously, longing, etc) has not disappeared.

The thing that puzzles me in the book are the Chapter titles. I hope you all can help me make sense of the whole, the parts are stunning but the whole eludes me.

First Captain York comes and we assume Yll kills him? We know why the Earthmen are leaving, we don_t know why the Martians are not more welcoming. In Yll_s case it_s jealousy. You'd think Earthmen came as regularly as the Fuller Brush man, the way they act, yet it's pretty clear this is the FIRST Expedition?

The Second Expedition finds the children on Mars singing Earth Nursery rhymes and everybody talking about Rocket Summer. Do they have Rockets? Why do they call it Rocket Summer?

(An interesting question in the heading!.....Do rockets change the weather?) A lot of people think that space travel, rockets to the moon, etc., cause changes in the weather and bring about bad things for man on earth. And then some people don't believe man ever went to the moon, didn't a former astronaut (Aldrin? Yeager?) just punch somebody for suggesting that it was on a sound stage and they never went? We tend to believe, some of us, only what we have personally experienced and can imagine, Si Fi drags you out of that, screaming, and apparently Bradbury is saying that no matter how advanced the culture, no person is immune from human emotion?

Then the captain Williwms story (this is Expedition Two?) which was priceless. He wants praise (why?) Why would he expect the Martians to be welcoming or celebratory? Isn_t he the first as far as he knows? Why wouldn_t he expect them to be hostile?

Brilliant thing with the insane asylum, the hallucinations, love how the reader gets sucked right along in, but the way the Martians act, you_d think this happens every day of the week. Surely the earth men are different in appearance, etc? Amazing how the Americans want praise or a small welcome, the key thing was _.was it ironic?

The Third Expedition finds the planet changing itself, it_s mimicking America in 1926.

Recreating old past times and persons depending on who views it, whose mother or father or whatever has been lost.

So the planet itself has changed. Or maybe just the appearance or maybe it_s a group hallucination, tables turned on the explorers? Why? Have the three expeditions threatened Mars so that it has changed to meet the challenge?

I think Bradbury_s writing is unbelievable, have never ever SEEN such imagination, I love the child like feeling of being caught up in this liquid gold, the marvelous turns of phrase and imagination, and I have a feeling that the plot is coherent and makes sense, but so far I am having a problem connecting the dots, and look forward to hearing your perspectives, it_s the first Sci Fi book I_ve ever discussed.

ginny

ALF
Ginny: I like that phrase "connect the dots." Isn't that what RB is attempting here- to connect, link and unite the two planets (species), while pointing out the fact that homo sapiens (Martians also) possess like qualities ?

Ginny
Good point Andrea, I don't know WHAT he's doing but it's clear he's doing it for a reason!

ginny

HarrietM
On Earth there's a strange discrepancy between our attitudes about the abstract idea of visitors from space and the possible reality of a visit. Remember the wide-spread American panic over Orson Welles's radio broadcast of a fictional Martian invasion about 60 or more years ago? Looking back, there are comic elements to the history of that radio show, but Welles's documentary approach created a lot of distress in segments of the population. Some folks who tuned into the show in the middle sequence became agitated because they thought an alien invasion was REALLY happening! It was plain that us territorial homo sapiens didn't trust an alien culture one bit!

Yet we send probes into space..."Greetings from the planet Earth"...complete with directional schematics directing aliens how to locate our planet. I wonder if Earth truly believes that we're not alone in space because, despite our space probes, there's no nation that's really making any realistic plans to meet and greet space visitors. What a stunner if an alien really DID knock on our door!

In this book Bradbury belongs to that genre of writers like Mark Twain and George Bernard Shaw, who are fond of pointing out wittily that what people say is NOT always what they mean.

more...

Harriet

HarrietM
Much like their earthly counterparts during Orson Welles's Invasion From Mars broadcast, Mars is thrown into disquiet by the impending visit/invasion. Mars responds to the alien fragments of Earth culture, music and folk rhymes filtering from the rocket occupants with hysteria and upset.

But why? No one could be filled with more good will than our first wave of space explorers. So far the rockets have carried Earth's best and brightest, our planet's most flexible and open minded thinkers. They're eager to meet the "average" Martian!

Well, is the average Martian equally eager to meet them...or even BELIEVE in their existence? When the first telepathic impressions subside, maybe the average Martian prefers a more "rational" explanation for the tall aliens with the strange colored skin and eyes? Denial is surely more comfortable than the problems arising from space visitors? Surely the space travelers are the hallucination of a sick Martian mind?

In any event, on our own planet, adventurous explorers sailed to the Americas in our 15th century and offered friendship to the native Americans. How well did that work out for the original Indians? These Earth men are filled with good intentions and sincerity, but can anyone guarantee mutual benefits from an Earth/Mars relationship? Perhaps ALL humanoids, from Earth and Mars alike, have an aggressive, territorial outlook?

The First Earth Expedition died through a jealous husband. The Second Earth Expedition ran into the entrenched beliefs of a people that didn't want to accept their own telepathic sensors. In the clear light of the Martian day, the frightening night time impressions of the alien spaceship became silly and unbelievable to the average Martian? It is taking time for the Martians to realize the origin of the aliens and to decide how they want to respond?

People are just being people on BOTH planets?

Harriet

Ginny
Golly Harriet, that's not all, (we are posting together, this in response to your post #56) I was stunned recently to realize they have been broadcasting "greetings" in several frequencies for YEARS and years aimed at outer space in labs and planetariums all over this country, SOMEBODY believes they're out there and of course IF they turned out to BE out there that would destroy a whole lot of people's thinking. About a lot of things.

ginny

Gramof2
The Martian Chronicles is best read as a collection of linked short stories rather than as a novel. Although such collections are unusual in "mainstream" fiction they are common in science fiction. Bradbury has always been more of a short story writer than a novelist, and most of the stories can be read separately from their present context. When that fact is realized, some of the inconsistencies and contradictions in The Martian Chronicles diminish in importance. The tone of the stories varies markedly. Some are very much in the mode of the horror tales which he had at first specialized in (collected in The October Country ), and others are earnest parables of human folly. The Martians sometimes behave like monsters and sometimes like saints. A collection-novel such as this is often called a "fix-up" in SF, and Bradbury has clearly tried to fix this one up by adding connective bits between the main stories to smooth the joins; but that this smoothing-out process was not entirely successful is made clear by the fact that when the television miniseries was created the scriptwriters felt the need to impose far more unity on the stories than Bradbury had. But if the stories are considered as variations on a theme rather than as chapters of a unified novel, these variations should cease to be troubling. Here is the link for more:

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/science_fiction/martian_chronicles.html

That was in response to Ginny who seems as confused as I am in the reading of this book. I thought the story was going to flow, but each chapter seems to move ahead with each expedition. And the names seem to get mentioned again as the stories progress. One name in particular (Hathaway) had me searching thru all the previous stories because I knew he was mentioned earlier.

Nellie Vrolyk
Ginny, how good to see that you finally made it!

Very good posts everyone! I'm going to leave my remarks until tomorrow and reread the posts again before I do. I don't want to make a long post because SN is not working right for me tonight.

later....

Ginny
Janet, that is sooo helpful, the continuing mention of Captains York and Williams do keep the reader hopping, don't they? It may be deliberate on the part of Bradbury, because, let's face it, the whole thing is inventive genius, but I am soooo relieved to read that, thank you very much for bringing it here.

Yes, Nellie am here thru tomrorow and then off to Washington DC for our Third Annual Bookfest, back next Monday and hope to rejoin you all then.

Wonderful insights, Harriet!

ginny

ALF
Thanks for the link gramof2. Harriet, you say, "Earth men are filled with good intentions and sincerity, but can anyone guarantee mutual benefits from an Earth/Mars relationship? " Good question, yet--- how can we gurantee any relationship?

The psychologist freaks out when the "hallucinations" continue before him. He's murdered the captain and the crew and can not understand why this illusion persist. This mirage is no longer a figment of their imaginations it is now his vision.

"Only one cure. Only one way to make them go away, vanish."


This is great Science Fiction. I loved that. I don't believe I'd resort to such a drastic measure as he did but it worked!

I am sorry that I will be away for the week as I am traveling to the Bookfest. I hate starting a discussion and then desert in mid stream but nothing could tear me away from this wonderful opportunity. I'm sure Harriet, Nellie, gram0f2, crabgras, GothamCity and all of you lurkers will share numerous thoughts and observations.

Nellie Vrolyk
Hello all!

Since the title is The Martian Chronicles, I began to think about what chronicles are, and realized that I didn't really know; so I whipped out my very old little Webster's and looked it up:
chronicle(Kran'.i.kl) n. a register of events in order of time; a history or account; v.t. to record in order of time. -r n. [Gk. chronica, annals, fr. chronos, time]


Given the dates that are part of the chapter headings I think the book fits as a series of events recorded in the order of time. I do suspect that Bradbury may have added the dates after the stories were written since one month seems to short a time for reaching Mars using a regular rocketship; but it could also be that at the time the book was written that no one was aware of how lengthy a journey to Mars would be. I just looked at the Mars Exploration site and found out that the unmanned probes sent to Mars take a minimum of about 7 months to get there.

Now on to the final chapter in this section under discussion: The Third Expedition. Is the town real? It seems very real. But does Captain Black suspect the truth?
But, he thought, just suppose... Just suppose, now, that there were Martians living on Mars and they saw our ship coming and saw us inside our ship and hated us. Suppose, now, just for the hell of it, that they wanted to destroy us, as invaders, as unwanted ones, and they wanted to do it in a very clever way, so that we would be taken off guard. Well, what would the best weapon be that a Martian could use against Earth Men with atomic weapons?

The answer was interesting. Telepathy, hypnosis, memory, and imagination.



The little chapter before this one is interesting in that the taxpayer, who wants to go to Mars, sees the planet as some sort of Paradise. Then the next chapter at first makes it look as if the taxpayer is right...until all the Earth men are killed and we realize Mars is no Paradise.

So far the Martians are very successful at getting rid of the Earth men, aren't they?

Tomorrow...onward!

HarrietM
Great research, Janet. Thank you so much for passing it on. It's interesting to note that courses on Sci-Fi, and particularly on Bradbury, are being taught at Washington State U. I wonder how many other schools accept the Sci-Fi genre as a form of literature?

Nellie, Alf, Janet...any lurkers out there...I thought the chapter on the Third Expedition was the most marvelous sample of Bradbury so far. I first read it as an individual story as a teen and it made a tremendous impression on me. I was moved by the contrast between the joy and trust of the Earthmen and the malice of the Martians. Martians were able to probe deep into the minds of the Rocket Crew, physically recreate the memories and nostalgia of the people and places they loved the most, and use that power to lure the unsuspecting earth men to their death.

As a youngster, all my sympathy lay with the Earth travelers. Now, with a bit more historical perspective, I can't help thinking of the settlement of the American West and the destruction it caused to the Indians. Captain Black and his crew are individually well-meaning, but if wave after relentless wave of Earthmen follow, it can surely present a danger to the Martian way of life and Martian sovereignty, just as western homesteaders eventually did to the Indians. The short chapter about The Taxpayer indicated the growing dissatisfaction that people were feeling about conditions on Earth. Right now, the earth explorers are the innocent underdogs...but what about the future? Are the Martians right to feel threatened by Earth exploration? Are they right to defend themselves?

I have to catch up with the next segment of reading, Nellie.

Harriet

HarrietM
I just noticed the introduction, copyrighted in 1997, that Ray Bradbury wrote to CHRONICLES in my edition. Can that be...is Bradbury still alive? Maybe I'm getting him mixed up with Rod Serling, who died young? Anyway, Bradbury writes about some of the things that influenced his writing. Sooo interesting to glimpse into his mind...

He remembers being caught up with the archaeological discoveries in the tomb of the mummified King Tut in his youth. Many years later he produced a stage version of Martian Chronicles near an L.A. museum featuring an Egyptian display of mummies. Strolling through the museum, Bradbury immediately recognized how the Martian masks and hieroglyphic books of CHRONICLES had been fired by his long-ago fascination with the golden mask and artifacts of King Tut.

By the way, did any of you see the Discovery Channel's recent special on the assassination of King Tut? Forensic scientists recreated Tut's face just as they might with a modern murder victim. His face was so very young, and he was caught up in a nest of politics and power grabbing. It couldn't have been easy to be Pharaoh while so young and inexperienced. It was discovered that Tut had a birth defect of the spine that made it difficult for him to have full mobility of his head. The program claimed that he was murdered by a blow to the head?

Bradbury concluded his introduction to MARTIAN CHRONICLES like this.

"If it (Martian Chronicles) had been practical, technologically efficient science fiction, it would have long since fallen to rust by the road. But since it is a self-separating fable, even the most deeply rooted physicists at Cal-Tech accept breathing the fraudulent oxygen atmosphere I have loosed on Mars. Science and machines can kill each other off and be replaced. Myth, seen in mirrors, incapable of being touched, stays on. If it is not immortal, it almost seems such. Perhaps my Mars still has a few more years of impossible life."


Harriet

Nellie Vrolyk
Harriet, yes Bradbury is still alive. I like that piece from his introduction to your book; I think it is very true that his concentrating on the 'human' aspects in his stories rather than the science, makes this book and others timeless.

Now we come to the next section for the discussion and the chapter titled 'And the Moon Be Still As Bright' in which the fourth expedition arrives on Mars and makes a disturbing discovery as regards the Martians. The Earth Men have won the undeclared war after all. Or have they?

I think this is another great chapter in this book, just like the Third Expedition chapter.

More thoughts tomorrow...

HarrietM
Nellie, you're right. And the Moon Be Still As Bright is a wonderful chapter. It gives a lot to chew on about mankind in general. The varying reactions of the crew to the extinction of the Martians and their civilization shocked me and made me think. In my long ago first reading of CHRONICLES, I hadn't remembered that most of the Martians were wiped out by an epidemic of chicken pox. Now I wonder how I could have forgotten that particular detail.

The majority of Captain Wilder's crew accept the planetary tragedy casually. The loss of an ancient culture and its people isn't particularly interesting to them. They don't feel any guilt for the part that mankind played in the ending of Mars. They can't conceive of the value of the lost civilization.

Spender represents another type of person. He goes overboard with the acknowledgement of Earth's responsibility in the extinction, and he compounds the Martian tragedy by adding more Earth deaths to the roster. He's a violent man himself, overwhelmed with anger for Earth's part in precipitating the lost Martian past. He is ultimately buried in a Martian sarcaphogus with the Martian artifacts that he valued more than his crewmate's lives surrounding him.

I suppose Captain Wilder and perhaps Cheroke represent the most balanced viewpoint to the planetary tragedy? What do YOU think, Nellie and anyone else lurking?

Does anyone understand the chapter The Green Morning? How did our new Johnny Appleseed engineer the growth of trees and the osygenated enrichment of the Martian atmosphere so quickly? ARE the trees real, or just a fantasy of Benjamin Driscoll's oxygen deprived brain? If the trees are real, does something or someone in the planet of Mars respond physically to the power of intense wishes? Bradbury doesn't explain himself, at least not enough to relieve my confusion.

The Third Expedition had found a Earth town on Mars. Was that the result of hypnosis by the hostile Martians, or does something in the planet make it possible to turn thoughts into physical realities? If thoughts can become physical on Mars, will that power extend to the Earth men who settle here? Many points left to solve as the book goes on...

Harriet

Gramof2
and all the seeds he planted sprouted. I would think with that many trees, now the sunlight would be cut off. He was trying to do good, and never expected such a reaction.

Nellie Vrolyk
Harriet, I see Captain Wilder as having a balanced view of Mars, as witnessed by what he says on page 55 of my paperback copy:
"Did you notice the peculiar quiet of the men, Spender, until Biggs forced them to get happy? They looked pretty humble and frightened. Looking at all this, we know we're not so hot; we're kids in rompers, shouting with our rockets and atoms, loud and alive. But one day Earth will be as Mars is today. This will sober us. It's an object lesson in civilizations. We'll learn from Mars. ..."


I think that Spender is the most aware of, and the most affected by the tragedy that has happened to the Martian civilization. So much so that it drives him mad in a way. He sees the ghosts of the Martians in the dead city and seems more attuned to the planet than the others.

At first I was thinking that Gibbs appears to be totally uncaring and unaware about what has happened to the Martians because he wants to party and whoop it up. But maybe he wants to party because he cares all too much?

I have to do some cooking, so will have a look at Green Morning later.

HarrietM
Janet, the rains DID come, but how could the tiny seeds that Driscoll had JUST planted sprout into huge trees, "taller than ten men," during one short night? Except...Driscoll had visualized the trees fully grown in his IMAGINATION before that extraordinary event? Can a thought turn into a physical reality on Mars? Can merely wishing achieve a goal?

"His ear to the ground, he could hear the feet of the years ahead moving at a distance, and he imagined the seeds he had placed today sprouting up with green and taking hold on the sky, pushing out branch after branch, until Mars was an afternoon forest, Mars was a shining orchard."


The thin atmosphere of Mars, perfect for the original inhabitants, didn't have enough oxygen for the Earth settlers. The newly planted trees grew immense, and provided the oxygen that made the atmosphere of Mars more compatible for the lungs of Earth settlers. This remarkable 'Green Morning' happened almost instantaneously. Now Mars was truly reborn in a form that those from Earth found familiar. Any surviving Martians have lost not only their planet, but their preferred atmosphere as well?


Nellie, such a perceptive observation about Gibbs. Perhaps it IS possible to find some common ground between the people of two civilizations.

Bradbury certainly pictures just such a fascinating meeting between a Martian and an Earth settler in 'Night Meeting.' Two humanoids with peaceful temperaments meet on common ground, but perhaps not in a common time frame. Some mysteries are solved, but others are added. It appears that the Martian can "touch" the mind of Tomas and pick up enough Earth language to communicate with him. Yet each of the two men are living in different realities with different environments surrounding them? Which is the real Mars? When is the correct time frame? WHAT is the true reality?

Is it the Martian on his way to a festival in a busy city filled with HIS people and lavender wine canals? Is it Tomas sitting in the peace of the deserted Blue Hills with the newly built Earth village glistening below?

There are several new mysteries to be considered in our book.

Harriet

Nellie Vrolyk
Harriet, another thing that is interesting is that Driscoll cannot remain on Mars without the oxygen produced by the trees that grow from the seeds he has planted. Is Mars a place where the things that the charcters imagine come into being? Maybe it is a place where Time runs at different rates?

What did you think of the rocketships coming to Mars like locusts? Quite the picture!

Night Meeting is another good chapter. Which mars is the real Mars? Or are both real?

HarrietM
The heavy influx of rocket ships reminded me of the Homesteaders in the American West. Did anyone else relate to that simile? It's such a surprisingly prosaic way to regard adventuring in space, isn't it? The immigrants brought their carpentry tools and their inventiveness and began to turn Mars into home.

I found only one point in the chapter 'The Shore' that seems discordant and outdated in today's world. Bradbury describes the first men to live on Mars as those who preferred large, unoccupied terrain and wouldn't be discouraged by loneliness.

Then Bradbury comments: "Everyone knew who the first women would be."

Gosh, in the last 60 years, women have come a long way, haven't they? A current expectation would be that a woman settler might be a scientist or a medical or technical person. Or perhaps she might be a wife and mother, willingly accompanying her husband on a great adventure. Even taking into account that he was writing in the 1940's, Bradbury's view of the particular type of woman that would choose to come to Mars seems a bit cynical? It's hard to determine if Bradbury's view of women, as reflected by that sentence, arose from the era in which he grew up or came from his own personal orientation?

Nellie, you're really making me think! In your post #71, you brought up two fascinating conjectures. First, you suggested that Time might simultaneously run at different rates on Mars? Also, you wondered if several types of reality could coexist on Mars at the same time? What interesting possibilities that might suggest! I wonder if those points will become resolved as we continue to read the book.

Harriet

Nellie Vrolyk
Harriet, yes women have come a long ways, and if Mars were being actively explored and settled today, then I would expect women to be right there with the men. But wouldn't it be true that the kind of woman Bradbury has arriving on Mars first, that they would be one of the first groups of women to arrive even now?

I caught that simile between the settlers coming to Mars in the book and the homesteaders coming into the American West too. I wonder if it would really be that way?

I think that this bit from Night Meeting says it all about Time:
"Let us agree to disagree," said the Martian. "What does it matter who is Past or Future, if we are both alive, for what follows will follow, tomorrow or in ten thousand years. How do you know that those temples are not the temples of your own civilization one hundred centuries from now, tumbled and broken? You do not know. Then don't ask. But the night is very short. There go the festival fires in the sky, and the birds."


Tomorrow we will be going on to Interim, The Musicians, Way In The Middle of the Air, The Naming of Names, Usher II, and The Old Ones. There are some good chapters there!

A general thought: I think this story is not so much about humans settling on Mars as it is about what happens when large groups of humans from one place settle in a new place. What do you think?

HarrietM
This story COULD be about any people adjusting to a new environment, but I think Bradbury's imagination adds the fillip that makes it such a classic fantasy. He often places his characters in midwestern American towns. Yet these towns, underneath their prosaic reality, hold all the infinite variations of time, space and the unknown.

The hymns that are sung in Bradbury's neatly built churches resound into the Martian air and give that alien planet a feeling of familiarity, so that we can "connect" with Mars. Isn't it only one more small step to accept any alien life forms as neighbors? And maybe, if we move still one more small step onward, will we suddenly find ourselves looking into a mirror and seeing our own culture reflected through the prism of an alien people's eyes? Perhaps we have some strange and contradictory customs ourselves when we turn a searchlight on Man?

Harriet

HarrietM
Is my edition of CHRONICLES different from others? It was printed in 1997 and I have a chapter called 'The Fire Balloons' right between 'The Shore' and 'Interim.' I'm not sure whether or not to talk about it?

Does anyone else have that chapter? Shall I move right on to commenting on 'Interim' instead?

Harriet

Nellie Vrolyk
Harriet, my copy was printed in 1979 and it doesn't have the Fire Balloons. Since I'm curious what that chapter is about, feel free to tell a bit about it.

Meanwhile, I'll think about some of the questions you have raised.

HarrietM
'The Fire Balloons' is a lovely chapter, Nellie. It describes the progress of some Episcopal ministers who travel to Mars to bring their Earthly concept of God and religion to the Martians. The devout missionary Fathers are determined to save any surviving Martians from damnation.

In the Martian mountains they discover a race of glistening, fiery blue globes, a life form of pure intellect and goodness. Father Peregrine reproaches one of his fellow ministers who fearfully rejects the luminous, alien fire balloons, and asks him: "Can't you recognize the human in the inhuman?" The terrified Father Stone responds: "I'd much rather recognize the inhuman in the human."

In this chapter, Bradbury touches on knotty issues such as the relationship between man and God, the ability of God to inhabit ANY physical form, and the definition of what constitutes sentient life. I imagine that Bradbury is probably revealing his own feelings on these issues.

Toward the end of the chapter one of the missionaries, now willing to accept the spheres of blue fire, says:

"The way I see it is there's a Truth on every planet. All parts of the Big Truth. On a certain day they'll all fit together like the pieces of a jigsaw. For this Truth here is as true as Earth's Truth, and they lie side by side. And we'll go on to other worlds. adding the sum of the parts of the Truth until one day the whole Total will stand before us like the light of a new day."


It's a satisfying Bradbury short story that can stand on its own and it's been transformed into a chapter of MARTIAN CHRONICLES.

Harriet

HarrietM
In 'Interim," the settlers do their best to change Mars into Earth, but how can we justify their behavior in 'The Musicians?'

I would think that humanity would regard the evidence of the past Martian civilization as an archaeological treasure, something to be studied and explored? Yet there are no gates or barriers to prevent anyone from entering the dead cities. Those who are reverent and those who are destructive have equal access to the Martian past. Human children run and play through the deserted cities, racing each other to be the first to bang the bones of the dead Martians together, producing a sad, musical desecration with the bones of the former residents.

Bradbury describes an astonishing obliteration of the past on Mars. The human Firemen complete what the children have started, burning the bones and the artifacts surrounding the dead Martians.

Can Bradbury truly believe that mankind is so incurious about this alien civilization...so destructive of an ancient tradition? Is this his vision of Man on alien planets?

Harriet

Nellie Vrolyk
Harriet, I'm thinking what it would truly be like to see ourselves through alien eyes, and I don't think that we would come out looking very good as a species. Bradbury is showing us this alien viewpoint by having those who settle Mars behaving much like they do on Earth in a similar situation.

Is man as incurious as the persons in The Musicians, who have a whole Martian city to whet their curiosity? I think that most people are generally not curious about what is around them - as far as I can make out not much curiosity was elicted by North American native sites; judging by those that became cemetaries or were simply built over. And weren't the pyramids and the tombs of the Egyptian pharaohs considered to be nothing more than places to loot and rob by those who lived around them, and later by those who came from farther away?

Luckily not everyone is without curiosity and we learn from them about the things we did not know about. Will we see such people on Mars in this book?

What do you think of Way In The Middle of the Air? It is very politically incorrect in that Bradbury uses a word that is not used in polite society. And yet it fits the character who uses it.

More on this later...

Nellie Vrolyk
I was just thinking how interesting the way Mars is settled in this book is: first come the explorers, the loners, the homesteaders; and all are American and white. Then, after Mars has become more like another Earth, the colored people come -and I assume that the African-Americans in Way Up In the Middle of the Air are representative of all the non-white people of Earth - and I thought that is just as it happened with people coming to the North American continent, even in the 20th century: when I came to Canada with my family in the 50s, it was mainly white Europeans who emigrated; and now it is mainly non-whites who emigrate to places like Canada.

The Naming of Names: putting names on places and things confers ownership doesn't it? And when everything is named and tamed, the 'sophisticates' come to Mars: the tourists and the lawmakers. Reminds me of the Old West -how about you?

GingerWright
Nellie, I do not have the book but thought to let you know I am enjoying the post, You are Not alone here.

HarrietM
Hi Nellie, just easing off from two very busy, active days.

Sadly you have an excellent point about the way the Egyptian tombs were vandalized and native Indian culture was devalued. I guess scientists and archaeologists are not the first groups of people to reach a potentially valuable scientific location. It's always available to those who live in the area first...before any official scientific investigation is started...and those folk may choose to use the artifacts for personal profit or amusement. They surely do that in CHRONICLES.

Wow, 'Way In The Middle Of The Air' must be VERY politically incorrect because it doesn't exist in my edition of our book. You revealed enough to give me an idea of its subject, but I'm still wondering about it. I can't believe Bradbury would intentionally slur any group or TRY to be offensive. I've read books by black authors that casually describe name calling among characters of the SAME race. Does 'Way In The Middle Of The Air' portray INTERRACIAL prejudice on Mars?

My edition of the book has a story called 'The Wilderness' instead. I wonder if Bradbury himself edited and revised this 1997 edition? The front of the book specifically mentions the 1972 copyright for 'The Wilderness' as if this was its first time in print. Unlike this newer inclusion ro CHRONICLES, the other copyrights on the page are simply generalized indications of dates, but the titles of specific stories and dates of publication are NOT correlated.

I loved your comparison of the settling of Mars to the Westward movements of Homesteaders. That is exactly the theme of 'The Wilderness.' Two women are spending their last night on Earth before rocketing to Mars to join their sweethearts. They embark from the same point, Independence Missouri, that so many western wagon trains had used as a gathering point.

"Sixty million miles." She moved at last to the window as if it were a deep well, "I can't believe that men on Mars tonight are building towns, waiting for us."

"The only thing to believe is catching our Rocket tomorrow." Janice raised a white gown like a ghost in the room.

"Strange, strange. To marry--on another world. I'm scared."

"Our last night on Earth."


Bradbury's parallels between the settlement of Mars and the settlement of the West continue with an emphasis on the human emotions involved. This is a poignant story of endings and beginnings.

Interesting thought, that perhaps Bradbury is reevaluating his previously written stories and deciding on the inclusion of some that he previously rejected for publication?

Harriet

Nellie Vrolyk
Hi Ginger! Nice to know you are following along with our posts!

Harriet, it is like we have two different books, and, yet, they are the same book.

I can see why Bradbury replaced Way in the Middle of the Air with a chapter like The Wilderness. Although I don't see him as slurring anyone or any group of people: his characters were just behaving as people did, specially in the South, where this chapter seems to be set, in the late 1940s and early 1950s when the book was first copyrighted. The chapter takes place totally on Earth and there is an unwritten thought in it that there is no racial prejudice on Mars.

Do you have Usher II in your book? And The Old Ones?

In Usher II, one William Stendahl has a recreation built of the House of Usher as it is described in the Poe story, even down to the dreary athmosphere surrounding the house which is replicated by technology. This chapter touches on book burning -which Bradbury goes into at greater length in Fahrenheit 451. In this chapter no one is allowed anything that comes out of the imagination and there is a group called Moral Climate which makes sure that everyone toes the line.

What do you think of Stendahl having his robot ape kill the inspector from Moral Climate and then replacing him with a robot that looks like him? And what about that 'party'? Mars appears to have become the place where people can live their dreams and fantasies. Or has it?

HarrietM
Yes, Nellie. I have both 'Usher II' and 'The Old Ones' in my edition.

I see 'Usher II' as an author's ultimate revenge fantasy against book censorship and creative control of a writer's thinking. It's imaginative, it's violent, and I think it's also certainly Bradbury at his best. Don't you feel that the story has all of the elements that make his writing wonderful? Here we can find the factors that we hope for in a Ray Bradbury story...eloquence, poetry, emotion and imagination. In 'Usher II,' Bradbury's writing skills create an environment where hate can sound like poetry, and murder can sound like justice. The whole thing holds together as an excruciating, surreal fantasy.

Maybe we shouldn't look at the details or analyze a great fantasy too closely? The violence that would be totally alien to me in real life can be accepted if I just go with the flow of his story and allow myself to be drawn into it? Bradbury has combined the bizarre world of Poe with his own imaginative genius and engulfs us in a situation that defies normal laws.

Do you feel, as I do, that Bradbury is expressing a PERSONAL fury against those who inhibit imagination, creativity and free expression? He seems to worry that there is NO place that an artist can consider to be safely free of rules and strictures?




Here are the stories I have in my edition for the next week. Let's compare notes, Nellie. Do we have any differences?

The Martian
The Luggage Store
The Off Season
The Watchers
The Silent Towns
The Long Years


Harriet

ALF
Harriet and Nellie:

I'm BAAaack! I will resume the discussion chapters starting tomorrow with you. The stories listed above by Harriet are identical to wht I have in my book. I loved the "House of Usher" story and I tried to rememeber what the guys name was in Farenheit 451 who secretly left with the books. Was it Stendahl?

Marvelle
I think the person who secretly left town with the books was Professor Faber, the elderly retired English prof who had become a tutor of sorts to Guy Montag, the fireman. Faber was probably named after Peter Faber the 16th century tutor and founder of the Jesuit Colleges.

It's a shame if "Way in the Middle of the Air" was removed from the "Martian Chronicles." I have it in my edition of the book. The racist remarks were made by the bigoted characters whom Bradbury satirized and who were literally left in the dust by the Southern blacks as their rockets rose to travel to the 'shore' of Mars and the promised land.

Bradbury was railing against bigotry and injustice and he even mentioned the unmentionable in those days (of the early 1950s) which was lynchings. Imagine Bradbury being censored when he has always been against that as well as being against prejudice and injustice and the whole McCarthy era of narrow-mindedness and suppression.

In "Fahrenheit 451" wasn't one of the books burned Bradbury's "Martian Chronicles"?

HARRIET, my book has the same chapters you've listed.

Marvelle

Nellie Vrolyk
Harriet, all that you said about Usher II...exactly what I think about this marvelous chapter. Do you think that Bradbury was figuratively killing all those people who want to inhibit, or even stop the use of, the imagination, free expression of that imagination, and the things created by that imagination? I guess those kinds of folks were around when Bradbury wrote The Martian Chronicles, and they are still around today as witnessed by those who would ban books like the imaginative Harry Potter series.

A fantasy should never be scrutinized too closely, for being the stuff of the imagination and existing only in the minds of the creator and the reader, listener, watcher, it will dissipate like a mirage if looked at too closely. As someone said -I believe it was Tolkien- it is important to 'suspend your disbelief' when reading any story that came out of someone's imagination and accept it and the things in it as being true...but only for as long as you are reading the story. That is not to say that there cannot be truths in fantasy.

I have the same chapters as you do.

Welcome back ALF! I look forward to seeing some of your thoughts on what we have read.

Marvelle, I agree with you that it is a pity that Way in the Middle of the Air was removed. It is well written and one of the better chapters in the book. imo.

Now a look at a short chapter The Old Ones. Do you know that when I first saw the title, I thought he was going to write about Martians? Instead it is about seniors making their way to Mars. And I don't think that his description of old folks is very flattering. Do you?
And so the dry and crackling people, the people who spent their time listening to their hearts and feeling their pulses and spooning syrups into their wry mouths, these people who once had taken chair cars to California in November and third-class steamers to Italy in April, the dried-apricot people, the mummy people, came at last to Mars. ...


Tomorrow we go on to The Martian and so on.

HarrietM
What a wonderful perceptive post, Nellie! I enjoyed reading it so much. We both seem to have the same feelings about fantasy literature.

Concerning 'The Old Ones.' I would assume that Bradbury is probably our contemporary in age. I wonder if he would use the same terms, "the dried-apricot people, the mummy people" to describe himself today? He was likely much younger when he wrote that? Anyway, I would consider the phrase 'round and fully packed' to be a more appropriate word-picture of many older folk these days, including myself.

Alf, welcome, back! Looking forward to your comments.

Marvelle, as I read 'Usher II' thoughts of the restrictions of the McCarthy Era kept floating in and out of my mind. Thanks for bringing those parallels into sharper focus for me. Loved your added description of 'Way in the Middle of the Air' also.

Harriet

HarrietM
What is a Martian?

Is he the good-hearted festival reveler of "Night Meeting" who appears out of an alternate reality? Is he a burning globe composed of pure intellect and goodness? Or perhaps he is a petty husband like Yll, bent on murder because of his wife's telepathic romance, but hiding behind an emotionless mask? Maybe he's a deceitful, shape-shifting murderer from "Third Expedition?" It's hard to get a definition because Bradbury provides so many Martian images in the course of CHRONICLES. There aren't many common denominators, although all of them are fascinating.

It helps me a lot to refer to our Nellie's marvelous definition of fantasy in her last post. She said:

A fantasy should never be scrutinized too closely, for being the stuff of the imagination and existing only in the minds of the creator and the reader, listener, watcher, it will dissipate like a mirage if looked at too closely. As someone said -I believe it was Tolkien- it is important to 'suspend your disbelief' when reading any story that came out of someone's imagination and accept it and the things in it as being true...


That was wonderfully written, Nellie, and so true. And, by your definition, I found "The Martian" to be a poignant and touching story. Here is a Mars where beloved people can reappear and past happiness can be relived...our deepest yearnings can achieve physical reality...loneliness could be forgotten?

Bradbury wrote an introduction to my 1997 edition of my CHRONICLES. Originally he created these Martian fantasy stories and they were linked only by his fascination with the concept of Earth's planetary settlement of Mars. The stories were published individually at different times. If Bradbury had no idea that he would finally unify them into a book, he might surely feel free to provide many alternate and varying imaginative visualizations of Martians. Here is a story with one of his richly detailed assortment of possible alternative Martian life forms.

What is the nature of the Martian who appears in THIS story? Is he a passive recipient of the stronger mental energy of the Earth settlers around him? Is he a fragile creature whose shape-shifting consciousness can be destroyed by a bombardment of desires from Earth folk around him? Does he have NO power to shape his world around himself, but only to be re-shaped by a Will that is stronger than his own? How do you all perceive this Martian?

I see a tender picture of mutual needs that COULD be satisfied in both Martian and human and that makes the ending of the story all the more tragic. Isn't it sad that human voraciousness and inability to compromise with each other destroyed the Martian that might have fulfilled their deepest yearnings?

Harriet

Nellie Vrolyk
Harriet, I have to think more on your questions about The Martian; but I have this one thought: the Martian tried to satisfy everyone's desire and it was the death of him. He seemed to have no identity of his own, did he?

HarrietM
The Martian certainly didn't have an identity of his own, Nellie. He presents a different picture of a native Martian than we got in other chapters.

In "The Luggage Store" I was surprised at Bradbury's implication that people would want to return to Earth when bombs are falling. The chapter made an interesting analogy to the feeling of emotional removal that American's have had to wars that are very far away.

Harriet

Harriet

Nellie Vrolyk
Harriet, I think that what the Martian was doing was a kind of defense mechanism: I think that as long as the Earth settlers did not see him as a Martian he felt safe. That is why he is disturbed when LaFarge wants to know if he is a Martian.

I like Father Peregrine's remark about things not being truly real when they occur far away of where we are. Are not fantasies always set in a 'land far away'? Anything could be real when it is far enough away in space and/or time that we cannot go and check out its reality.

It doesn't seem quite sane for people to be heading back to Earth when a nuclear war is going on there.

What did you think of all the Martians coming out of hiding in Off Season? And why the generous deeding away of over half the planet?

Nellie Vrolyk
Any fresh thoughts on any of the chapters in the section under discussion?

I'll be by in the morning with a few...

Ginny
I wish I could write this in the same colors and silver and mesh and ice and sparks and melted crystal figures that Bradbury does, even trying this is a failure, it's not easily done!

hahhaa

The chapter The Off Season is a masterpiece, isn't it? There IS continuity with what has gone before with the reference to Captain Wilder, but the news of Mars is much less hopeful.

There are only about 150 Martians left? What happened to all of them? Apparently the Earhmen have given them "the Disease" (shades of Columbus, huh?) and their cities are shards, easily broken by Sam's gun.

Oon the Earthman side, Sam himself is frightened and mean, hanging his hopes on the tens of thousands of earhmen about to come, shooting two Martians when they try to communicate or stop him and Elma thinks he might just shoot her, too.

The entire chapter is about destruction, so we might have to be forced to ask the question, WAS perhaps Mr. K in the second chapter, right in what he tried to do: keep the earthmen away from Mars?

Is the message here that,,,,what IS Bradbury saying?

What is it that hampers man or would hamper man in an effort to colonize the world? There are a lot of subliminal messages here, am not sure I'm getting the right one.

And then of course, it's all mooT as earth is destroyed, and no more Earthmen are coming. Ironicaly, that was all the Martians came out of hiding to tell him.

Why did they bother?

Why did they want him to know?

An intriguing chapter, if I had written the book, the book would have had to have ended here... but it didn't!

So we've gone from a milennia old planet thriving to about 100-150 Martians who are in hiding, what future is there for Mars? And who will rule it?

Love Bradbury!

ginny

Nellie Vrolyk
Ginny, almost all the Martians were killed by chicken pox. A few were immune and have managed to survive in hiding. Rather an ignomenous way for the Martians to die as a race, wouldn't you say?

Mr. K and all the other Martians would have succeeded in keeping the Earth Men away. But perhaps Bradbury is telling us that changes will happen no matter how much we desire otherwise?

Yes, Off Season is another one of those great chapters in the book. The picture of Sam and Emma's hotdog stand in the middle of nowhere is quite something for me to picture -but words are escaping me right now, so I'll return to this in the morning...

Nellie Vrolyk
Well here I am and it is not morning

We have reached the last two chapters of the book. Any comments on these chapters?

HarrietM
Back in an earlier part of the book Captain Wilder and Hathaway talk about the useless tragedy of Chicken Pox destroying Mars. Spender says that Earth men have a talent for ruining beautiful things. He draws an analogy that implies that we Earth men are capable of setting up a hot dog stand among the ruins of Mars without any sense of desecration. That abstract hot dog stand seems to represent Bradbury's symbol of the ultimate in human tackiness.

In "The Off Season" the hot dog stand has become reality and the Fourth Expedition's living, breathing symbol of human tackiness, Sam Parkhill, has become the heir of the planet. Bradbury certainly doesn't believe that the better elements of humanity will prevail, does he?

I can't figure out why Bradbury has all of humanity rush back to earth to their destruction. During wars, don't most of the civilian populatiion try to get AWAY from impending destruction? But Bradbury's human race rushes eagerly home to Earth to participate in the coming battle. It's strange. It's like Lemmings, rushing off a cliff to their death, isn't it?

Walter Gripp and Genevieve are not sympathetic figures to me in "The Silent Towns". Walter didn't do so well in the marital sweepstakes when Mars was filled with people. He always failed to find a wife and had to return to the hills alone. Yet, he feels nothing but repulsion for the person who might very well be the last woman on the planet. Of course Genevieve is a broadly drawn caricature of unpleasant habits and insensitivity, but is our rigid, infantile Walter any better? Can't they cooperate and help each other survive in an isolated planet? They are two adults and they do have choices about whether or not to expand into a sexual relationship. Bradbury has the last man completely unable to tolerate the company of the last woman, much as the people back on Earth were unable to cooperate with each other. Mankind can't seem to survive en masse or as individuals either. Not a pretty picture of mankind in general, is it?

Bradbury seems to believe in the integrity of automated things much more than humans. "The Long Years" portrays Hathaway living happily with his android family. Is he saying that mankind gets along best with machines? "There Will Come Soft Rains" shows us the inexorable, soulless functioning of the mechanical things that once surrounded humanity. Man is gone, but his technology lives on.

I'm interested in your commentary on the stories of this past week, Nellie. How do you see the conclusion of the book, "The Million Year Picnic"?

Harriet

Ginny
Harriet!!! Super points.

Just reading your post I want to ask if the Last Man in the world and the Last Woman can't tolerate each other, what future does mankind have?

Adam and Eve don't like each other, where's the new improved race going to come from?

What's happening in Soft Rains? I thought earth had been destroyed? Is this some of the "collection" aspect of this book?

Yeah I'm interested in both of your interpretations of the last chapter, starting with who ARE these people?

I thought Adam and Eve were the only ones left? How many are there?

ginny

Nellie Vrolyk
Harriet, you make such fabulous posts!

Why does Bradbury have everyone rush back to Earth to destruction? I've asked myself that same question and came up with another question. Perhaps everyone was rushing back home to Earth to forestall the impending destruction?

Walter Gripp and Genevieve reminded me of two people who meet on the Internet and then arrange to meet face to face without having seen pictures of each other. Personally I thought Walter was very shallow and nitpicky; although I admit Genevieve is not what he expected.

Maybe mankind does get along better with machines and gets along better with other people through the use of machines like this computer I am using to communicate with you all.

I had problems getting into Seniornet earlier today, so that in spite of my good resolutions to be here when it was still light enough to be able to look things up in the book, I have arrived just at that time when it is too dark to read and too light to be turning on the lights.

Ginny, it seems there was a nuclear war on Earth, but I don't think that would literally blow the planet apart; though, if I remember right, it was once believed that precisely such a thing would happen.

I'm going to read some other discussions and hopefully return when I can reread bits that I want to comment on...

Nellie Vrolyk
This is the last day of our discussion and I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful posts.

The final chapter: The Million-year Picnic. A family, father, mother and three young sons have come to Mars from Earth. Right away they go off on a fishing expedition on the canals. There seems to be a sense of fear in this chapter: they hurry away from the rocket they came to Mars in, as if staying close to it is dangerous. The father looks pleased that the old Martian city is dead, and later he is startled by a bird because he fears the presence of other rockets. I asked myself "Why the fear? The fear of meeting other Men? The fear of meeting Martians?

I think that Bradbury answers my questions in large part here on page 173 of my old copy:
Timothy looked at the deep ocean sky, trying to see Earth and the war and the ruined cities and the men killing each other since the day he was born. But he saw nothing. The war was as removed and far off as two flies battling to the death in the arch of a great high and silent cathedral. And just as senseless.


And I like this bit on the same page:
"What are you looking at so hard, Dad?"
"I was looking for Earthian logic, common sense, good government, peace, and responsibility."
"All that up there?"
"No, I didn't find it. It's not there any more. Maybe it'll never be there again. Maybe we fooled ourselves that it was ever there."


The boys want to see Martians and the father promises that they will:
"I've always wanted to see a Martian," said Michael. "Where are they, Dad? You promised."
"There they are," said Dad, and he shifted Michael on his shoulder and pointed straight down.
The Martians were there. Timothy began to shiver
The Martians were there -in the canal- reflected in the water. Timothy and Michael and Robert and Mom and Dad.
The Martians stared back up at them for a long, long silent time from the rippling water. ...


These last settlers from Earth will not try to make Mars over into another Earth like the first settlers did; they will live with it and adapt to it as it is. I love the ending. It is so full of hope.

Any final thoughts?

HarrietM
Nelly, we had so many of the same thoughts and we both even zeroed in on the same passages of the book. We're really on a similar wave-length! Great minds think alike.....? Hahaha...

Ginny, somewhere in the book there was talk of a premature explosion of some stored atomic weapons on Earth. There was war also. Whichever, there was definitely catastrophic destruction on Earth. Here and there an irradiated house was left standing, going through its automated routines, oblivious to the absence of the people it had served.

In the final chapter, "The Million Year Picnic", we see a new start for Mankind. Occasional groups of survivors, a few individualistic families, have successfully hidden rockets and made their escape from Earth to Mars. The children in these families will become the new Adams and Eves of the planet Mars. I think that Bradbury talks through "Dad" as one family makes its new start. Dad is looking up at the Martian sky. His son asks:

"What are you looking at so hard, Dad?"
"I was looking for Earthian logic, common sense, good government, peace and responsibility. I didn't find it. It's not there any more...maybe we fooled ourselves that it was ever there."


When "Dad" is talking for Ray Bradbury, he tends to make cynical speeches condemning humanity. I'm just not as turned off by humanity as Ray Bradbury. I accept his philosophy as part of his book though, because I love Bradbury's writing and I love the upbeat ending to MARTIAN CHRONICLES. Bradbury hopes that men will ultimately let go of a past that he sees as corrupt and rigid and allow a new day to dawn.

The last sentence of the last chapter of CHRONICLES is an imaginative classic of sci-fi literature. It says more about the future of mankind than any descriptive speech that may have preceded it. Bradbury truly ties up his book with, as Ginny expressed, "colors and silver and mesh and ice and sparks and melted crystal figures." Loved that line of yours, Ginny!

Nelly, you've clarified that ending for us beautifully in your post #100. Isn't it a touching finale?

Nelly, I love you for bringing MARTIAN CHRONICLES to our discussion boards with such sensitivity and perception. Thank you so much. Wonderful choice of book, wonderful leader! It's been a pleasure spending time with you. I've had fun!

Harriet

Ginny
You both have made of this book a delightful discussion to read, I'm in "awr" as the Sopranos would say, of you and so glad to have stuck a small oar in, this is really a book no person should miss, Mars goes on, Earth is gone, so I guess we can say Mars won, after all?

Thanks for a wonderful discussion, Nellie and Harriet and All!

ginny

Nellie Vrolyk
Yes, in the end Mars won. Maybe in the end the new and the alien always wins over the old and familiar in life. Even this computer I'm using would have looked alien to me when I was ten years old; but it wouldn't have for long.

The enjoyment has been mutual - I have loved reading your posts Harriet, and your enthusiasm Ginny.